Steph Sez She's Shocked At 6-1 Loss, Jury Bitterness
Steven L.
Tara Merrin
Calgary Sun - 12.15.05
The former Survivor Palau cast-off, who was given a second chance at $1
million US on Survivor Guatemala, got all the way to the final two this
season, making her the longest playing Survivor in the game’s history.
On Sunday, she was awarded $100,000 US after coming in second behind
winner Danni Boatwright.
While LaGrossa says she’s not surprised she lost, she is shocked only
one of her former teammates (Rafe Judkins) voted for her.
“There were only two people on the jury who really backstabbed by me, so
I figured I (ticked) two people off, but, at the same time, there’s five
other people,” says LaGrossa, who believes her enemies on the jury
turned the rest against her.
“When I was on the jury in Palau, I didn’t have a conversation with
anyone nor did I know who anyone else was voting for. This time I think
they all talked about it … and one bad seed can spoil the bunch.”
Whatever went down behind the scenes, LaGrossa says CBS has confirmed
this season’s jury was one of the most hostile.
“People I’ve talked to who work on the show said they haven’t seen such
a bitter jury since All Stars and I believe it. They were really mad.”
Although LaGrossa admits she did turn on a few of her former friends in
order to get further in the game, she’s still the nice person Survivor
fans grew to love on Survivor Palau, she says.
“I’m still that girl.
“They just have to edit it, I think, for the place you come in.”
And, despite how it looked on TV, she says there are no hard feeling
between her and her former ally Judd Sergeant.
“We’re fine. He knows it’s a game. And I did apologize to him because I
did feel bad for voting him off.”
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Jason Smith
where she had to betray a couple of people to get further. Danni, on the
other hand, rode on the coattails of more prominant players like Steph who
who were willing to take a leadership role and organise alliances to vote
certain people out. By definition, being a leader means sticking your neck
out, and opening yourself up to the anger of the people who get voted out.
It's a shame more people don't recognise how well she played the game, and
how much Danni was (comparitively) given a free ride.
"Steven L." <sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:17bpf.3523$mj1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Micozy Sarkolas
> Steph Oh So Close
> Tara Merrin
> Calgary Sun - 12.15.05
>
> The former Survivor Palau cast-off, who was given a second chance at $1
> million US on Survivor Guatemala, got all the way to the final two this
> season, making her the longest playing Survivor in the game’s history.
>
> On Sunday, she was awarded $100,000 US after coming in second behind
> winner Danni Boatwright.
>
> While LaGrossa says she’s not surprised she lost, she is shocked only
> one of her former teammates (Rafe Judkins) voted for her.
LaGrossa !! hahahaha
> Whatever went down behind the scenes, LaGrossa says CBS has confirmed this
> season’s jury was one of the most hostile.
>
> “People I’ve talked to who work on the show said they haven’t seen
> such a bitter jury since All Stars and I believe it. They were really
> mad.”
and you deserved it for playing so badly, destroying an
alliance where you were the leader !!!!
> Although LaGrossa admits she did turn on a few of her former friends in
> order
yes
> to get further in the game,
hahahaha, yeah right
Silt
<jha...@iowuiouwio.com.nz> wrote:
>She has a point. She did nothing immoral, only played the game at a level
>where she had to betray a couple of people to get further. Danni, on the
>other hand, rode on the coattails of more prominant players like Steph who
>who were willing to take a leadership role and organise alliances to vote
>certain people out. By definition, being a leader means sticking your neck
>out, and opening yourself up to the anger of the people who get voted out.
>It's a shame more people don't recognise how well she played the game, and
>how much Danni was (comparitively) given a free ride.
>
Actually, Danni wasn't given a free ride. Post game interviews makes
it clear that editing was the reason Danni was seen this way. She was
very much in the decision making process and a leader in her tribe.
Watch the Survivor Live interview on CBS' site with Steph and Danni,
Danni talks about some of the early game votes she was instrumental
in, but wasn't shown. Also, Steph pretty much admits Danni played her
ass when it came to the Judd vote.
Really a shame they gave Danni the edit they did, cause she played one
hell of a game. Though doesn't surprise me, CBS wasn't going to give
a positive edit to another woman when they had their darling Steph
there. Hell, Jiffy didn't even have balls enough to announce the vote
was 6-1 at the reunion show. Couldn't have their Stephy looking bad.
Bottom line is Danni outplayed Steph, and outplayed her bad.
Silt
DefiantRican
fixed.
Steven L.
> She has a point. She did nothing immoral, only played the game at a level
> where she had to betray a couple of people to get further. Danni, on the
> other hand, rode on the coattails of more prominant players like Steph who
> who were willing to take a leadership role and organise alliances to vote
> certain people out.
Prior to the merge, Danni was a force in her own Yaxha tribe. She had
alliances with Gary, for example. But since Yaxha went into the Merge
numerically dominated by Nakum, Danni's alliances were worthless from
then on. To avoid being Pagonged just like Gary was, Danni was forced
to make a deal with Steph (which proved very useful).
web...@shaw.ca
>" ....This time I think
> they all talked about it ... and one bad seed can spoil the bunch."
Yes T'Steph, that must be the reason! They all talk about T'Steph all
the time. How else could T'Steph lose? And lets face it, she IS the
ONLY ever to actually deserve to win.
Its just a big conspiracy and if there wasnt a conspiracy and her team
mates didnt suck she would have won twice already! hahahaha
She better wear a tinfoil hat...
Steven L.
> In article <mojaq19lmu97htjbp...@4ax.com>,
> Silt <ma...@er.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Though doesn't surprise me, CBS wasn't going to give
>>a positive edit to another woman when they had their darling Steph
>>there.
>
>
> yeah, but then they edited their darling Steph to be a selfish poor
> loser.
>
> She wasn't their "darling Steph;" she was something else, just a tool to
> bring in viewers. And they chose to show the dark side of the "darling
> Steph" pretty early on.
OTOH, when Danni easily beat Steph at the F3 endurance IC, notice whom
the cameras were focused on. That should have been Danni's big
moment--she now controlled the game. Instead, once again, it was all
about Steph: Steph struggling, Steph losing, Steph weeping, Steph
unable to stand up because of her backache. Instead of showing Steph
congratulating Danni for winning (did Steph ever congratulate Danni?),
we saw Danni and Rafe trying to comfort and console Steph for losing.
Obveeus
Steven L. wrote:
>The former Survivor Palau cast-off, who was given a second chance at $1
>million US on Survivor Guatemala, got all the way to the final two this
>season, making her the longest playing Survivor in the game’s history.
Is this some kind of counting of total days? How many days did Stephenie
have total vs. Big Tom?
>“There were only two people on the jury who really backstabbed by me, so
>I figured I (ticked) two people off,
Twpo full season's of play and she still doesn't know what this game is
about. She didn't lose because she 'ticked people off', she lost because
the jury could tell that Rafe made decisions and Stephenie was just along
for the ride. They all wanted her in the game for her 'outcast' feel and
she needs to realize that that is the true reason she made it deep into the
game this time.
>“When I was on the jury in Palau, I didn’t have a conversation with
>anyone nor did I know who anyone else was voting for. This time I think
>they all talked about it … and one bad seed can spoil the bunch.”
So, Judd turned the whole jury against her? With his
social/manipulative/intellectual skills, I'm finding that just a bit hard to
swallow.
>Whatever went down behind the scenes, LaGrossa says CBS has confirmed
>this season’s jury was one of the most hostile.
It was in the press release...right alongside 'this was the toughest season
yet'.
>Although LaGrossa admits she did turn on a few of her former friends in
>order to get further in the game, she’s still the nice person Survivor
>fans grew to love on Survivor Palau, she says.
Her Palau season was pretty much pre-merge gaming with lots of 'keep the
strong player' tactics. Her Guatemala season hd her make it to F2 so we saw
lots of 'vote off the strong' tactics in the second half of the game.
Honestly, I don't know why there is so much being written about how
Stephenie played differently. She played the same old game. It was edited
the same (except that with her doing some winning we got to see her
'cockiness' instead of her 'underdog spirit').
Obveeus
Jason Smith wrote:
> Danni, on the
>other hand, rode on the coattails of more prominant players like Steph who
>who were willing to take a leadership role and organise alliances to vote
>certain people out.
We always see a group in power and a group not in power. A player from the
group in power can 'skate' by letting others in power control the game while
they coast. Stephenie 'skated' far more than Katie from last season. Danni
wasn't in a position to 'control' the game for much of the later stages, yet
we saw her doing more to control things than we ever saw from Stephenie.
Roarmeister
<sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote:
>Steph Oh So Close
>Tara Merrin
>Calgary Sun - 12.15.05
>
>The former Survivor Palau cast-off, who was given a second chance at $1
>million US on Survivor Guatemala, got all the way to the final two this
>season, making her the longest playing Survivor in the game’s history.
>
>On Sunday, she was awarded $100,000 US after coming in second behind
>winner Danni Boatwright.
>
>While LaGrossa says she’s not surprised she lost, she is shocked only
>one of her former teammates (Rafe Judkins) voted for her.
>
>“There were only two people on the jury who really backstabbed by me, so
>I figured I (ticked) two people off, but, at the same time, there’s five
>other people,” says LaGrossa, who believes her enemies on the jury
>turned the rest against her.
Apparently she never "watched" the episodes because it was quite clear that
Lydia's motivations went deeper than just being voted out. She was
intensely pissed that Stephenie was getting so much food and going on
rewards. While she thinks she only punted Jamie and Judd by turning on
them - she did the same with Cindy while they were scheming together after
the car challenge and promptly voted her out, and during the reward with
Judd/Danni/Gary she told them how much she wanted to go out with a
competitive final 4 just like Gary did. Then again she didn't see the
behind the scenes confessionals about how Bobby Jon was so pissed at her.
Not understanding people's motivations, not thinking 10 moves ahead, not
thinking about the consequences, and blind nativity in believing the
strongest competitor should always win - these are the reasons she lost.
>“When I was on the jury in Palau, I didn’t have a conversation with
>anyone nor did I know who anyone else was voting for. This time I think
>they all talked about it … and one bad seed can spoil the bunch.”
No, Queen Steph - the bad seed was *you*, not Judd mouthing off to everyone
else. Open your eyes and understand the real motivations behind the
others.
>Whatever went down behind the scenes, LaGrossa says CBS has confirmed
>this season’s jury was one of the most hostile.
>
>“People I’ve talked to who work on the show said they haven’t seen such
>a bitter jury since All Stars and I believe it. They were really mad.”
>
>Although LaGrossa admits she did turn on a few of her former friends in
>order to get further in the game, she’s still the nice person Survivor
>fans grew to love on Survivor Palau, she says.
Steph apparently believes in the America's sweetheart syndrome and must
have been watching, with great interest, the popularity figures on CBS's
website.
>“I’m still that girl.
>“They just have to edit it, I think, for the place you come in.”
Perhaps, except that this was her second chance at the million - does she
really think that she should be entitled to the same deference from the
rest of them? Weren't some of the first people gone from All-stars former
winners? There was NO WAY she was going to get a majority vote to win the
million no matter how sympathetic they were towards here.
>And, despite how it looked on TV, she says there are no hard feeling
>between her and her former ally Judd Sergeant.
Yeah, just like everything is peachy between Robb and Lex!
>“We’re fine. He knows it’s a game. And I did apologize to him because I
>did feel bad for voting him off.”
<<<Shaking my head>>> Just because a person accepts an apology on the
surface doesn't mean they actually forgiven you.....
Good thing you still have one friend - Danni. She's volunteered to help
plan your wedding.
AF
The jury part must have been heavily edited then. Outside of Judd, there
wasn't any venom whatsoever from the jury.
Gino
It was however a hostel jury. That much is true.,g>
Brett
Obveeus wrote:
> Steven L. wrote:
> >The former Survivor Palau cast-off, who was given a second chance at $1
> >million US on Survivor Guatemala, got all the way to the final two this
> >season, making her the longest playing Survivor in the game’s history.
>
> Is this some kind of counting of total days? How many days did Stephenie
> have total vs. Big Tom?
Tom and Amber both lasted longer than Steph. She beat out Rupert by only a
couple days.
Brett
Roarmeister wrote:
> Good thing you still have one friend - Danni. She's volunteered to help
> plan your wedding.
She says she is not even engaged yet. Wonder what all the talk about her
wedding being televised came from.
Brandons of mass destruction
"-Calliope-" <calliope...@removegmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun 18 Dec 2005 07:12:22a, Silt wrote:
>
> > Bottom line is Danni outplayed Steph, and outplayed her bad.
>
> Totally!
> --
And consistently and repeatedly on several levels, in strategy and
physical prowess and endurance. Good winner too. She tried to comfort
Steph by saying (I'm paraphrasing) "You're the toughest girl I know",
after she beat her at the F2. No tears either.
Based on the above, itt would have been more interesting to see Danni
and Rafe in the F2. Going against Steph was a slam dunk for Danni, so I
understand why she took Steph, but Rafe would have been interesting at
F2. He had better reasoning skills than Steph and probably would have
been to sell himself. At least he would have gotten more than 1 vote.
Steven L.
> On Sun 18 Dec 2005 05:47:25a, Steven L. wrote:
>
>
>>"When I was on the jury in Palau, I didn't have a conversation with
>>anyone nor did I know who anyone else was voting for. This time I think
>>they all talked about it . and one bad seed can spoil the bunch."
>
>
> She's a whiner, alright. Talk about denial, lol.
I'll bet the reason why the other jurors in S10 didn't talk to Steph
about whom to vote for, was because she was the only juror from the
defunct Ulong tribe. She didn't know much about the Korors who got
voted off after that, so they probably figured she had nothing useful to
say.
Brian Smith
> OTOH, when Danni easily beat Steph at the F3 endurance IC, notice whom
> the cameras were focused on. That should have been Danni's big
> moment--she now controlled the game. Instead, once again, it was all
> about Steph: Steph struggling, Steph losing, Steph weeping, Steph
> unable to stand up because of her backache. Instead of showing Steph
> congratulating Danni for winning (did Steph ever congratulate Danni?),
> we saw Danni and Rafe trying to comfort and console Steph for losing.
Steph was in a lot of pain during that IC due to her height disadvantage.
Was she supposed to jump up right away and congratulate Danni, which they
did show her do? By focusing on Steph in pain the producers could show
viewers how tough the challenge was. Showing Rafe and Danni comforting Steph
didn't exactly make them look bad. I'm not sure why you are complaining
about how Steph acted at the end of the final IC or how the producers edited
it.
Brian
The Horny Goat
<jha...@iowuiouwio.com.nz> wrote:
>She has a point. She did nothing immoral, only played the game at a level
>where she had to betray a couple of people to get further. Danni, on the
>other hand, rode on the coattails of more prominant players like Steph who
>who were willing to take a leadership role and organise alliances to vote
>certain people out. By definition, being a leader means sticking your neck
>out, and opening yourself up to the anger of the people who get voted out.
>It's a shame more people don't recognise how well she played the game, and
>how much Danni was (comparitively) given a free ride.
It's difficult to go all the way in Survivor without betraying
SOMEBODY - Richard Hatch probably did it as "cleanly" as possible. The
only one he turned on was Sue Hawk and that was after he overheard her
plotting against him - not to mention that the various strategies were
not nearly so well developed in the first season.
Even Tina did a bit of stabbing though most of hers was pre-merge. (To
this day I'm a non-Tina fan primarily on account of Kel and figured
her being first boot on SAS was what she had coming)
Ethan and Vee were somewhat lucky as they were kind of back-doored
into F2 while Brian promised F2 to his entire alliance which is why he
only won 4-3 despite having played much the best game of those who
made the jury. I could go on through seasons 6-11 but you get the
point I'm sure.
jewahe
> Is this some kind of counting of total days? How many days did Stephenie
> have total vs. Big Tom?
The CBS site does not make the All-Snores timeline entirely clear:
Because there were 18 contestants, there should have been a dual boot
episode, but there wasn't one. The other option is that they held TCs
every 2 days instead of the normal 3. The timeline is obscured between
Richard's ousting on day 15 and Shii Ann's ousting on day 33.
Also, remember that S2 was 42 days, instead of the usual 39.
Based on what I could figure out:
Contestant Original Second Total
Rudy 38 6 44
Tina 42 3 45
Bobby Jon 21 24 45
Jenna M 39 9 48
Rob C 38 12 50
Jerri 27 24 51
Susan 37 16 (?) 53
Richard 39 15 54
Alicia 24 30 (?) 54
Shii Ann 21 33 54
Colby 42 18 60
Ethan 39 21 60
Rob M 21 39 60
Lex 38 27 65
Jenna L 27 38 65
Rupert 30 37 67
Kathy 38 30 68
Stephenie 30 39 69
Amber 33 39 72
Tom 37 36 73
Steven L.
I'm complaining because in the final analysis, DANNI was the star of
S11, not Steph. The editors knew that all along because they got all
the videotape in the can before we got to see any of it. Yet they
edited the whole season to make Steph the star of the season, including
showing nearly twice as many confessionals for Steph as for Danni.
Obveeus
jewahe wrote:
>Lex 38 27 65
>Jenna L 27 38 65
>Rupert 30 37 67
>Kathy 38 30 68
>Stephenie 30 39 69
>Amber 33 39 72
>Tom 37 36 73
Thanks for the list...might even be something for the FAQ? In any case, I
guess it shows that the original 'news' article claiming Stephenie was the
longest lasting Survivor in history was wrong...just like the claims of her
being great at challenges.
jewahe
Someone would need to verify the numbers first. As I said, the
Survivor website wasn't clear about when several boots occurred during
All-Snores.
I'm pretty confident about the ones listed above, though.
BTW, unless MB decides to do another 42-day show, the maximum anyone
could ever play is 78 days. That's also assuming that they don't do a
three-peat All-Stars. And the very idea of that sends shivers down my
spine.
Brian Smith
I don't think they wait until the game is over before they start to edit the
show. I've heard that they look at footage daily and wouldn't be surprised
to find out if they start selecting potential material for TV while the game
is still being played. As for Steph getting more confessionals than Danni,
maybe Danni's weren't that interesting. To me it seemed like Steph got fewer
as the game progressed and I can see why she got more at the beginning. She
was brought back because she clicked with the audience so why not give her
more TV time than the "unknown" players. Also, it sure seemed like Rafe got
a lot of air time as the game went on. Does that mean they were trying to
make him a star?
I don't mind that Danni won but she was far from being a great player. Take
away that reward challenge clue buying event and she would have been gone
weeks before the game was over. Hopefully MB will never do that again.
Brian
Paucle
> Take away that reward challenge clue buying event and
> she would have been gone weeks before the game was over.
> Hopefully MB will never do that again.
She wasn't the only one eligible to buy the clue.
I hope they do indeed do it again. If they do, I'll bet someone buys
it for their whole wad.
Brett
Brian Smith wrote:
>
> Yet they
> > edited the whole season to make Steph the star of the season, including
> > showing nearly twice as many confessionals for Steph as for Danni.
>
> She
> was brought back because she clicked with the audience so why not give her
> more TV time than the "unknown" players.
Because we already knew her and it would have been nice to get to know to other
players and because she lasted so long in the game, she had lots of time for
confessionals.
> I don't mind that Danni won but she was far from being a great player. Take
> away that reward challenge clue buying event and she would have been gone
> weeks before the game was over. Hopefully MB will never do that again.
>
> Brian
Every winner except Tina had to win at least one key immunity to stay in the
game. It was during the family reward that Danni and Rafe began their alliance
so Danni may have survived that TC anyway.
Rick
"The Horny Goat" <lcr...@home.ca> wrote in message
news:d83cq15u5q9kb8ajq...@4ax.com...
Your point was that you can't win Survivor without some backstabbing, but
you disproved your own thesis with the Ethan and Vee examples. They both
won Survivor without ever betraying anyone. I don't think Jenna or Sandra
really betrayed anyone on their seasons either.
Obveeus
Rick <72242...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>Your point was that you can't win Survivor without some backstabbing, but
>you disproved your own thesis with the Ethan and Vee examples. They both
>won Survivor without ever betraying anyone.
Ethan and Vee both betrayed people in the game. Ethan, several people.
> I don't think Jenna or Sandra really betrayed anyone on their seasons
either.
Sandra most certainly did.
Jenna is the cleanest player to ever win (Danni or Tom would be the second
cleanest). Al three of these were less backstbbers than Ethn, Vee, or
Sandra.
Obveeus
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>OK, let's do an all-stars with Rupert, Steph, and Judd.
Don't forget to add in Ghandia, JFP, Robb, and Debb.
Steven L.
> Your point was that you can't win Survivor without some backstabbing, but
> you disproved your own thesis with the Ethan and Vee examples. They both
> won Survivor without ever betraying anyone. I don't think Jenna or Sandra
> really betrayed anyone on their seasons either.
Sandra did. She turned the tables on JFP by swearing to him "on the
lives of my two children" that she wasn't going to boot Burton.
Steven L.
Danni was better than anyone else on S11. That's all that matters.
That's all that ever matters.
> Take
> away that reward challenge clue buying event and she would have been gone
> weeks before the game was over.
First you forgot that Danni had lobbied and bonded with Steph at the
Reward they shared. She played on Steph's emotions by presenting
herself as "We tough girls have to stick together." Steph stopped
trying to boot her, as evidenced by the fact that she booted Jamie (from
her own alliance) first.
Secondly, Danni was smart enough to buy that Immunity Clue, and no one
else was smart enough to stop her doing it. Thirdly, Danni was smart
enough to use it and win the Immunity Challenge. Danni didn't play an
optimal game, but a conservative one and won.
A "great player" is one who is smarter than his competitors. Not one
who is smarter than you.
Steven L.
I forgot to mention one other thing: Danni had also formed a separate
single alliance with Rafe. So with that structure, Danni had
neutralized the two controllers of the game, Rafe and Steph. But she
didn't stop there. Danni lobbied them successfully to boot Judd. With
Judd gone, Danni was now a major force.
Given that Danni came into the Merge seemingly doomed to be pagonged,
that's damn good game playing.
Jason Wuthrich
news:1135010200.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Contestant Original Second Total
<snip>
> Stephenie 30 39 69
> Amber 33 39 72
> Tom 37 36 73
Ditto Obveeus's answer, but did anybody match Stephenie's 25 TCs?
Silt
<dcg_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I don't mind that Danni won but she was far from being a great player. Take
>away that reward challenge clue buying event and she would have been gone
>weeks before the game was over. Hopefully MB will never do that again.
>
>Brian
>
Who's the greater player(s)? The one that buys themselves an
advantage or the one that sits by and lets it happen? Danni getting
that reward challenge clue is no different from the many other
decisions that are or aren't made during the course of the game.
Seriously, if you don't think Danni played a great game, you really
need to check more post game interviews. Even Steph admits Danni
played her. It's sad Danni will go down as an "under the radar"
player by the general viewing audience because that's the edit CBS
chose to do for her.
Silt
Steven L.
>>Take away that reward challenge clue buying event and
>>she would have been gone weeks before the game was over.
>>Hopefully MB will never do that again.
>
>
>
> She wasn't the only one eligible to buy the clue.
And the clue wasn't definitive. Even prior to that whole business, Judd
said in confessional that even if Danni won Immunity (by whatever
means), that wasn't a problem because they could just boot Lydia instead
and get around to Danni next time.
Danni not only won Immunity, but then she successfully lobbied Rafe and
Steph to boot Judd instead of Lydia. That was the game changing
move--Judd getting booted before either Lydia or her. After that, Danni
was a major force in the game.
Obveeus
Jason Wuthrich wrote:
>Ditto Obveeus's answer, but did anybody match Stephenie's 25 TCs?
I'm sure Stephenie hs the record for most TCs. ULong pretty much got her
that record. ;-)
The other 'long lasting' players were on all-Stars...three tribes, so less
TCs for players like Tom and Amber that were on 'winning' tribes.
jewahe
I also wonder if TC's where the player is a jury member should really
count - or only the ones where that person voted *out* another member
(as opposed to voting *for* the winner).
Francois
>that's damn good game playing.
I still say, being the last of a minority alliance to be pagonged can
be a very advantageous position. 1, because if you're the last one kept
around, it means that they like you and/or don't see you as a threat
(cf Colleen, Elisabeth--note that colleen would have outlasted Kelly at
F6 if not for Kelly's Immunity, and the term "pagong" might never have
existed, or it would have been "Sook Jai'ed"). 2, by the time it is "X
vs 1", they are usually starting to feel the cracks in their own
alliance and consider the "1" less of a worry than getting the upper
hand within the remaining group (often using the "1" for extra
leverage, especially for high-drama boots--see S9 F7, S11 F6). Your
power increases dramatically, the more they turn on themselves, using
you as an extra vote, and before you know it, you've outlasted many of
the former Ruling Group. And, as we saw in S9 and S11 [and, I believe,
in UK Survivor 1], sometimes a few well-placed Immunity wins can get
you right to F2, where you have an excellent chance of winning since
you haven't really backstabbed to get there.
F
Obveeus
jewahe wrote:
>I also wonder if TC's where the player is a jury member should really
>count - or only the ones where that person voted *out* another member
>(as opposed to voting *for* the winner).
For purposes of 'longest lasting player' or 'player with the most TCs', I
don't think being on the jury side should count at all.
Jason Wuthrich
When Jeff counted Steph's TCs, I'm sure he didn't count the ones in Palau
where she was on the jury side. As I recall, the only TC in S10 she
_didn't_ attend one way or the other was when Koror voted Willard out.
Since Steph was the 12th to be voted that season, she survived 10 TCs in
Palau before the inevitable boot. In Guatemala, she was on the players'
side of TC since the merge, which occured at 10 left, so that's 9 more TCs
plus the 11 from Palau for a total of 20. Had the five S10 TCs where she on
the jury counted, that would have been 25, but since that figure doesn't
count the S11 ICs her tribes lost, she would have had to have won every one,
which I know didn't happen. OTOH, those 25 TCs might not include the two
where she was voted out (technically, you could say she was voted out at the
F2 in S11).
Brett
Obveeus wrote:
> Rick <72242...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> >Your point was that you can't win Survivor without some backstabbing, but
> >you disproved your own thesis with the Ethan and Vee examples. They both
> >won Survivor without ever betraying anyone.
>
> Ethan and Vee both betrayed people in the game. Ethan, several people.
Who did Vee betray? The F4 deal was only for Kathy to take Vee to the F2. Vee
did not promise to take Kathy to the F2.
>
> > I don't think Jenna or Sandra really betrayed anyone on their seasons
> either.
>
> Sandra most certainly did.
>
> Jenna is the cleanest player to ever win (Danni or Tom would be the second
> cleanest). Al three of these were less backstbbers than Ethn, Vee, or
> Sandra.
Jenna betrayed Deana. Even Shawna could be considered a betrayal because she
was fine when she was booted. Didn't she even make a deal with Butch before
Matt approached her about keeping Rob? Ethan only backstabbed Brandon and Lex
indirectly by booting Brandon.
Brian Smith
news:7angq1t27p36e4n27...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:05:46 GMT, "Brian Smith"
> <dcg_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >I don't mind that Danni won but she was far from being a great player.
Take
> >away that reward challenge clue buying event and she would have been gone
> >weeks before the game was over. Hopefully MB will never do that again.
> >
> >Brian
> >
>
>
> Who's the greater player(s)? The one that buys themselves an
> advantage or the one that sits by and lets it happen? Danni getting
> that reward challenge clue is no different from the many other
> decisions that are or aren't made during the course of the game.
Danni was in a desperate situation at the time and probably would have done
anything to buy that clue. Steph and the rest of her "team" at the time were
too confident and clearly not thinking through the possibilities of how big
the clue might be. I see that whole clue buying event the exact opposite of
how you seem to be seeing it. Danni didn't make a great move, she made a
move that she needed to. Steph and company showed us why being part of a
dominant alliance can be dangerous--it often leads to a lot of brain freeze
moments and they all clearly had one during that reward challenge.
> Seriously, if you don't think Danni played a great game, you really
> need to check more post game interviews. Even Steph admits Danni
> played her. It's sad Danni will go down as an "under the radar"
> player by the general viewing audience because that's the edit CBS
> chose to do for her.
I'm not questioning that Danni played Steph. If Steph she did then I believe
it happened. I still don't think Danni played a great game due to the never
before utilized clue buying reward challenge and because of the
dysfunctionality of the majority of the people of on the other alliance.
People like Jaime, Judd and even Rafe really helped Danni go a lot farther
in the game then she probably would have. I'm not saying she played under
the radar and never have. She made a number of smart moves in the game. She
was a good player but I just didn't see her as being great.
Brian
Steven L.
That's because after the Merge, Danni correctly sized up the political
situation in the Nakum and made separate single alliances with both
Steph and Rafe. That saved her ass and forced Steph and Rafe to boot
somebody else each time, resulting in the Nakum alliance turning on itself.
Steph and Rafe didn't "let" Danni survive. She worked to win them over.
> I'm not saying she played under
> the radar and never have. She made a number of smart moves in the game. She
> was a good player but I just didn't see her as being great.
Danni survived being the "inevitable" next target of a Pagonging. After
Gary and BJ were booted, Danni faced the Nakum alliance of 5, all alone.
And yet she went on to win the game. That's damn good playing. Gary
also won special help--the Immunity Idol--but it didn't save him from an
eventual boot, because he couldn't figure out how to maximize his
advantage from that the way Danni did.
We just don't seem to agree on how to rate players, that's all. I rate
players by how well they dealt with the situations that arose in the
game. Anybody who can survive the odds Danni faced and went on to win
was a damn good player.
Obveeus
Brett wrote:
>Who did Vee betray? The F4 deal was only for Kathy to take Vee to the F2.
Vee
>did not promise to take Kathy to the F2.
She also bailed on Rob and her old alliance at the merge.
>Jenna betrayed Deana. Even Shawna could be considered a betrayal
>because she was fine when she was booted.
Both Deena and Shawna openly betrayed the alliance BEFORE they got voted
out. In Deena's case, she made a direct attempt to boot someone from the
alliance.
>Didn't she even make a deal with Butch before
>Matt approached her about keeping Rob?
No, she talked to him and pacified him with 'sounds good' type of answers.
> Ethan only backstabbed Brandon and Lex
>indirectly by booting Brandon.
Only...and voting off Tom, but at that point Ethn had to backstab one of his
two partners.
Francois
Brett wrote:
> Ethan only backstabbed Brandon and Lex indirectly by booting Brandon.
How was that backstabbing Brandon? B knew he would get votes from the
Boran group; it was the Samburus that he screwed up. And Lex,
similarly, knew Brandon was going, so it wasn't a backstabbing of him
in any way.
F
Silt
<dcg_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Silt" <ma...@er.com> wrote in message
>news:7angq1t27p36e4n27...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:05:46 GMT, "Brian Smith"
>> <dcg_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >I don't mind that Danni won but she was far from being a great player.
>Take
>> >away that reward challenge clue buying event and she would have been gone
>> >weeks before the game was over. Hopefully MB will never do that again.
>> >
>> >Brian
>> >
>>
>>
>> Who's the greater player(s)? The one that buys themselves an
>> advantage or the one that sits by and lets it happen? Danni getting
>> that reward challenge clue is no different from the many other
>> decisions that are or aren't made during the course of the game.
>
>Danni was in a desperate situation at the time and probably would have done
>anything to buy that clue. Steph and the rest of her "team" at the time were
>too confident and clearly not thinking through the possibilities of how big
>the clue might be. I see that whole clue buying event the exact opposite of
>how you seem to be seeing it. Danni didn't make a great move, she made a
>move that she needed to. Steph and company showed us why being part of a
>dominant alliance can be dangerous--it often leads to a lot of brain freeze
>moments and they all clearly had one during that reward challenge.
Even after the clue buying event, there was a ton of game left. After
the clue buying event, Danni was still down in numbers yet somehow
managed to see/get Cindy and Lydia voted off and not her when she
didn't have immunity. You're right, we don't see the clue event in
the same way. You see it as the only reason Danni won...I see it as
just another of a 1000 events/decisions/random chances that were
made/happened thru the season. It's really not that much different to
me than when they draw random numbers to see who starts a challenge
first.
>
>> Seriously, if you don't think Danni played a great game, you really
>> need to check more post game interviews. Even Steph admits Danni
>> played her. It's sad Danni will go down as an "under the radar"
>> player by the general viewing audience because that's the edit CBS
>> chose to do for her.
>
>I'm not questioning that Danni played Steph. If Steph she did then I believe
>it happened. I still don't think Danni played a great game due to the never
>before utilized clue buying reward challenge and because of the
>dysfunctionality of the majority of the people of on the other alliance.
>People like Jaime, Judd and even Rafe really helped Danni go a lot farther
>in the game then she probably would have. I'm not saying she played under
>the radar and never have. She made a number of smart moves in the game. She
>was a good player but I just didn't see her as being great.
>
>Brian
>
How did Jaime and Judd help Danni get further in the game(other than
Judd being a dumbass during the family reward)? Both of them were in
full Pagonging mode. Rafe "helped" her because Danni made a play to
establish a tight alliance/bond with him...which in the end is really
what the game all boils down to.
Guess there is no changing your mind about the clue buying. Seems you
see it as the only reason she won and use it as a basis to back your
belief she didn't play a great game. You could argue that the only
reason that so-and-so got voted out was because of the wrong random
starting spot in a challenge as well and IF that starting order was
different, well.......
Silt
Steven L.
> Guess there is no changing your mind about the clue buying. Seems you
> see it as the only reason she won and use it as a basis to back your
> belief she didn't play a great game.
I agree. We almost had a controlled experiment here:
Gary & Danni in danger of pagonging;
Gary finds Immunity Idol, saved at one TC, but gets booted later
Danni wins Immunity Clue, saved at one TC, and wins $1 million later
Both Gary and Danni got special Immunity help. But Gary got booted soon
after, while Danni won the whole shebang.
Logically, even if you hadn't watched Danni's moves, that means Danni
*must have done* a lot more than Gary did, beyond just getting special
help with one Immunity. Otherwise, how come she won and he didn't???
Obveeus
Steven L. wrote:
>Logically, even if you hadn't watched Danni's moves, that means Danni
>*must have done* a lot more than Gary did, beyond just getting special
>help with one Immunity. Otherwise, how come she won and he didn't???
Regardless of what you do in the game, other players have their own
'preceptions'. In this case, Gary was partly booted for being a bigger
immunity threat; something that Danni/gary had no real control over.
Of course, the other reason Gary got booted is because he was 'trying too
hard' and 'too openly' with his deal making. Doing a Shii-Ann S5 immitation
to some extent.
Brett
Obveeus wrote:
> Brett wrote:
> >Who did Vee betray? The F4 deal was only for Kathy to take Vee to the F2.
> Vee
> >did not promise to take Kathy to the F2.
>
> She also bailed on Rob and her old alliance at the merge.
"Also"? Vee did not betray Kathy. Kathy just misunderstood the deal. She did not
betray Rob. Voting with Rob would not have saved him.
>
> >Jenna betrayed Deana. Even Shawna could be considered a betrayal
> >because she was fine when she was booted.
>
> Both Deena and Shawna openly betrayed the alliance BEFORE they got voted
> out. In Deena's case, she made a direct attempt to boot someone from the
> alliance.
>
No, Deana had an alliance with Jenna and the Heidi?. She did not have one with
Alex. Jenna made an alliance with Alex and betrayed Deana. Deana was trying to
get her alliance further in the game.
>
> >Didn't she even make a deal with Butch before
> >Matt approached her about keeping Rob?
>
> No, she talked to him and pacified him with 'sounds good' type of answers.
I wasn't sure.
> > Ethan only backstabbed Brandon and Lex
> >indirectly by booting Brandon.
>
> Only...and voting off Tom, but at that point Ethn had to backstab one of his
> two partners.
He had to vote for Tom or Lex. It cannot be considered a backstab unless Ethan
and Tom had a F2 deal.
Brett
Francois wrote:
Lex made promises to Brandon and the others agreed when they used Brandon's
vote. It was Lex who made the promise but the others knew about it and
didn't say no. Lex did not vote for Brandon but did know the others were.
Obveeus
Brett wrote:
>"Also"? Vee did not betray Kathy. Kathy just misunderstood the deal.
Wiggle wiggle squirm.
>She did not betray Rob. Voting with Rob would not have saved him.
Rob, Sean, Vee is three votes. Working to find more votes is sticking with
your alliance. Changing sides and laying low rather than trying to gather
votes is what Vee did. I don't remember seeing her vote as 'trying
everything, but then going along with the flow when she saw their was no
choice'. Instead, I remember it more as her taking advantage of the chance
to remove Rob from Sean.
>> Both Deena and Shawna openly betrayed the alliance BEFORE they got voted
>> out. In Deena's case, she made a direct attempt to boot someone from the
>> alliance.
>
>No, Deana had an alliance with Jenna and the Heidi?. She did not have one
with
>Alex.
At that point in the game, Deena/Jenna had brought in RobC/Alex. The plan
of their alliance was to boot Matt next (Butch if Matt got immunity?).
Deena tried to change the plan and boot part of the alliance because Deena
saw the social threat of Alex as being more dangerous than the physical
threat of Matt. Deena was correct in her assessment, but that doesn't
change the fact that she tried to betray the current plan and that she got
booted specifically because she tried to betray that plan.
...and a few fans that season even managed to figure out that Deena wasn't
'in charge' when that happened.
Rick K
people that would have voted for Steph would have been Cindy and Bobby
Jon.
I would have to beleive before Steph, Danni, and Rafe went to tribal
council Danni would have explained to Rafe why she was selecting
Stephenie over him.
Of course stranger things have happend in the final vote on Survivor.
When Twila lost to Chris Twila got Ami's vote which was a big surprise
to me. I can't remember if that was the only vote Twila received or if
that old bag Scout voted for her to
Silt
wrote:
Twila getting Ami's vote was no surprise. Ami (while hot) is a man
hating lesbian and unless the F2 were both men, there was no way she
was voting for someone with a penis.
Silt
Obveeus
Silt wrote:
>Twila getting Ami's vote was no surprise. Ami (while hot) is a man
>hating lesbian and unless the F2 were both men, there was no way she
>was voting for someone with a penis.
Ami was in control of much of the early/middle game. Since Ami controlled
the decision process, Ami was well aware that Chris did nothing to be in the
game and that he was there only because he was the most pathetic man.
Silt
Yeah, I watched the season.....Still doesn't take away from the fact
she wasn't voting for anything with a penis.
Silt
The Horny Goat
>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>OK, let's do an all-stars with Rupert, Steph, and Judd.
>
>Don't forget to add in Ghandia, JFP, Robb, and Debb.
I really wouldn't mind that as long as well can have Tanya, Nichole,
Mad Dog, S4 John and T-Bird back. (These are players who went roughly
as long as your list) I wouldn't mind seeing Kel Gleason again either
but given what I've heard he'd be nearly as likely as the Sainted
E-Beth to return for a second go...
:)
The Horny Goat
wrote:
None of this would have mattered had Lil Kim had a clue what Brandon
was up to and voted to boot Lex.
The Horny Goat
Ooops - I hit enter too quickly without completing the thought (argh!)
Had Lil Kim gone with Brandon both would probably have gone to final 4
and at least one of them if not both would have gone to SAS.
Obveeus
The Horny Goat wrote:
>On 20 Dec 2005 18:58:48 +0100, "Obveeus" <Obv...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>>OK, let's do an all-stars with Rupert, Steph, and Judd.
>>
>>Don't forget to add in Ghandia, JFP, Robb, and Debb.
>
>I really wouldn't mind that as long as well can have Tanya, Nichole,
>Mad Dog, S4 John and T-Bird back. (These are players who went roughly
>as long as your list)
I thought we were trying to make a list of the most horrid cast possible.
> I wouldn't mind seeing Kel Gleason again either
>but given what I've heard he'd be nearly as likely as the Sainted
>E-Beth to return for a second go...
I just don't get what you see in Kel. The guy had no social skills at all.
The guy didn't show any amazing physical ability. The guy was caught with a
hidden food supply and wouldn't even admit to it. The guy got booted before
he ever spoke 4 complete sentences on the show. Does being 'kinda Canadian'
give him a total free ride or is there something else of merit to his
existence?
jewahe
>
> I thought we were trying to make a list of the most horrid cast possible.
Good topic!
The most horrid survivors (at least, the ones I never wish to see/hear
again - and this doesn't necessarly have anything to do with how they
played the game, but everything to do with my initial reaction to their
personality):
1. Ghandia: Proof that there are crimeless victims.
2. Kimmy: Proof that eating meat builds brain cells.
3. Osten: The brawn and the brainless, part I.
4. Jerri: The bitch never left.
5. Wanda: Name That...Loser.
6. James: Proof that stereotypes aren't always wrong.
7. Sandra: Big-mouthed sass
8. Clay: The ass-man watches.
9. Sean: Race is always an issue.
10. Eliza: Mud is not an option.
11. Jon Dalton: Lying is one thing; Lying about your grandmother is
quite another.
12. Ami: Hating men is the only option.
13. Jenna M: The girl with the big...mouth...
14. Silas: The brawn and brainless, part II.
15. Stephenie: Oh My GOD!
16. Sean (S1): Doctor clueless.
Put them together on one island...and keep the there!
Rick K
Don't forget Lil the Space cadet wacko Boy Scout leader.
That worthless gimpy old bag Scout.
Last of all Twila, shes a class act all by herself
Survivor Nutt
Stephenie and possibley Jenna M. The rest of them clowns you could take
out to sea and sink the boat for all I care along with a few others you
didn't mention. I wouldn't mind seeing Rory (evreybody picks on me
because I'm black) in that group. That dipshit Caryn from Survivor 10
would be a good candidate to. I'm sure there are a few more I can't
think of at this point. It always seems like there are at least 2 or 3
people in each group od Survivors that you just can't stand for one
reason or the other
Survivor Nutt
the list. Williard would be another one I would put on that list.
Brett
Obveeus wrote:
> Brett wrote:
> >"Also"? Vee did not betray Kathy. Kathy just misunderstood the deal.
>
> Wiggle wiggle squirm.
>
> >She did not betray Rob. Voting with Rob would not have saved him.
>
> Rob, Sean, Vee is three votes. Working to find more votes is sticking with
> your alliance. Changing sides and laying low rather than trying to gather
> votes is what Vee did. I don't remember seeing her vote as 'trying
> everything, but then going along with the flow when she saw their was no
> choice'. Instead, I remember it more as her taking advantage of the chance
> to remove Rob from Sean.
Your idea of backstabbing and mine is different. Sean and Rob's behaviour post
switch led to Vee looking elseware for an alliance anyway. We don't even know if
there was any real deal between Rob and Vee other than agreeing to vote off
Hunter, Gina and the older woman?.
> >> Both Deena and Shawna openly betrayed the alliance BEFORE they got voted
> >> out. In Deena's case, she made a direct attempt to boot someone from the
> >> alliance.
> >
> >No, Deana had an alliance with Jenna and the Heidi?. She did not have one
> with
> >Alex.
>
> At that point in the game, Deena/Jenna had brought in RobC/Alex. The plan
> of their alliance was to boot Matt next (Butch if Matt got immunity?).
> Deena tried to change the plan and boot part of the alliance because Deena
> saw the social threat of Alex as being more dangerous than the physical
> threat of Matt. Deena was correct in her assessment, but that doesn't
> change the fact that she tried to betray the current plan and that she got
> booted specifically because she tried to betray that plan.
> ...and a few fans that season even managed to figure out that Deena wasn't
> 'in charge' when that happened.
Her alliance was with Heidi and Jenna, not Alex. Jenna and Heidi had a separate
alliance with Alex that did not include Deana. Jenna and Heidi betrayed Deana.
The Horny Goat
>>>>OK, let's do an all-stars with Rupert, Steph, and Judd.
>>>
>>>Don't forget to add in Ghandia, JFP, Robb, and Debb.
>>
>>I really wouldn't mind that as long as well can have Tanya, Nichole,
>>Mad Dog, S4 John and T-Bird back. (These are players who went roughly
>>as long as your list)
>
>I thought we were trying to make a list of the most horrid cast possible.
Oh - I misunderstood - I thought we were talking about people who got
booted far too early and had some entertainment value.
I thought Debb was entertaining in a car crash kind of way and I'll
never forget Ghandia the night Clay explained "Denver Diva" - with the
exception of final 3 votes I don't believe we ever actually had
someone AT TRIBAL COUNCIL say who they had voted against and Ghandia's
look was classic.
>> I wouldn't mind seeing Kel Gleason again either
>>but given what I've heard he'd be nearly as likely as the Sainted
>>E-Beth to return for a second go...
>
>I just don't get what you see in Kel. The guy had no social skills at all.
>The guy didn't show any amazing physical ability. The guy was caught with a
>hidden food supply and wouldn't even admit to it. The guy got booted before
>he ever spoke 4 complete sentences on the show. Does being 'kinda Canadian'
>give him a total free ride or is there something else of merit to his
>existence?
You see I am one who really doesn't believe there ever was any
smuggled food - though your sniping about social skills may hold
water. Adopted nationality doesn't come into it at all in my books - I
thought he held his own physically but wasn't around long enough to
demonstrate any dominance or lack thereof.
Brian Smith
You have to admit that without the clue buying event that Danni would have
been gone. I've seen no one present any evidence that she would not have
been voted out at the next tribal council. I don't see that event as the
only reason why Danni won but it sure is the major reason.
> >
> >> Seriously, if you don't think Danni played a great game, you really
> >> need to check more post game interviews. Even Steph admits Danni
> >> played her. It's sad Danni will go down as an "under the radar"
> >> player by the general viewing audience because that's the edit CBS
> >> chose to do for her.
> >
> >I'm not questioning that Danni played Steph. If Steph she did then I
believe
> >it happened. I still don't think Danni played a great game due to the
never
> >before utilized clue buying reward challenge and because of the
> >dysfunctionality of the majority of the people of on the other alliance.
> >People like Jaime, Judd and even Rafe really helped Danni go a lot
farther
> >in the game then she probably would have. I'm not saying she played under
> >the radar and never have. She made a number of smart moves in the game.
She
> >was a good player but I just didn't see her as being great.
> >
> >Brian
> >
>
>
> How did Jaime and Judd help Danni get further in the game(other than
> Judd being a dumbass during the family reward)? Both of them were in
> full Pagonging mode. Rafe "helped" her because Danni made a play to
> establish a tight alliance/bond with him...which in the end is really
> what the game all boils down to.
Jaime and Judd's behavior was so out of control that they forced their own
team to turn on them. I think the rest of the team thought it was better to
have a stable, sensible "outsider" like Danni around than unstable and at
times uncontrollable people like Jaime and Judd. I'll give Danni a lot of
credit for fitting in and not appearing threatening during those days when
she easily could have been voted out. But if Jaime and Judd had not brought
such negative attention to themselves would Danni have been able to have
come up with a strategy (short of constantly winning ICs) to stay in the
game?
> Guess there is no changing your mind about the clue buying. Seems you
> see it as the only reason she won and use it as a basis to back your
> belief she didn't play a great game. You could argue that the only
> reason that so-and-so got voted out was because of the wrong random
> starting spot in a challenge as well and IF that starting order was
> different, well.......
As I said above, I don't it as the only reason why she won but I do see it
as the main reason because if you are not in the game you can't win.
Brian
Brian Smith
news:Hpeqf.530$nu6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> We just don't seem to agree on how to rate players, that's all. I rate
> players by how well they dealt with the situations that arose in the
> game. Anybody who can survive the odds Danni faced and went on to win
> was a damn good player.
I'm not saying that Danni wasn't a good player but I just don't see her as
being great. Based on your standards Chris from S9 (?) would have to be
rated as probably the greatest player ever. Yet, I don't see many people
making that claim. Like Danni, Chris benefited to a great extent from having
the other players either self destruct or eliminating each other and
forgetting to finish off the "opposition." From what I remember of S9 I
would have to say that Danni was a much better player than Chris.
Brian
Brandons of mass destruction
"Brian Smith" <dcg_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not saying that Danni wasn't a good player but I just don't see her as
> being great. Based on your standards Chris from S9 (?) would have to be
> rated as probably the greatest player ever. Yet, I don't see many people
> making that claim
This is because Chris was a lying idiot who had to be clued and told
what to do by Twilia, then proceeded to lie Julie and Eliza for stupid,
non game reasons WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO and then won because most of the
other women were pissed at Twilia (not without reason). Chris got very,
very lucky. Indeed, all the (supposed) talk about this season's jury
being bitter was bull compared to S9 where Twilia was repeatedly raked
over the coals for playing the game and S8 where real personal
friendships were harmed if not destroyed.
Obveeus
The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>>OK, let's do an all-stars with Rupert, Steph, and Judd.
>>>>Don't forget to add in Ghandia, JFP, Robb, and Debb.
>>I thought we were trying to make a list of the most horrid cast possible.
>
>Oh - I misunderstood - I thought we were talking about people who got
>booted far too early and had some entertainment value.
Players like Rupert, JFP, Judd, Steph, and Ghandia got mentioned...far too
early? I'd say that in every case they didn't go soon enough.
>>I just don't get what you see in Kel. The guy had no social skills at
all.
>>The guy didn't show any amazing physical ability. The guy was caught with
a
>>hidden food supply and wouldn't even admit to it. The guy got booted
before
>>he ever spoke 4 complete sentences on the show. Does being 'kinda
Canadian'
>>give him a total free ride or is there something else of merit to his
>>existence?
>
>You see I am one who really doesn't believe there ever was any
>smuggled food
I didn't say 'smuggled', I said 'hidden'. He admitted he was chewing on
something, so there is no question but that he DID have something he was
chewing on. He then refused to admit what that something was, changing his
story several times.
>Adopted nationality doesn't come into it at all in my books - I
>thought he held his own physically but wasn't around long enough to
>demonstrate any dominance or lack thereof.
He wasn'rt around long enough to stand out at all, so why does he hold such
a special place in your heart vs. all the other early boots? Why aren't you
pining over Jonathan (The S10 guy that never got picked for the game because
he had the same social skills as Kel)? I think the Canadian thing has to be
part of it.
Obveeus
Brett wrote:
>Your idea of backstabbing and mine is different. Sean and Rob's behaviour
post
>switch led to Vee looking elseware for an alliance anyway.
Ok...bailing on your alliance when it suits you isn't backstabbing in your
book. Fair enough. I'd say that no one has ever 'backstabbed' in this game
by your definition.
>Her alliance was with Heidi and Jenna, not Alex. Jenna and Heidi had a
separate
>alliance with Alex that did not include Deana. Jenna and Heidi betrayed
Deana.
You forget that Deena and Jenna had pulled in RobC. by that point (a tribe
switch where Heidi was nolonger even on the same tribe). When they tribes
merged, the girls (Deena, Heidi, Jenna, Rob) needed a bigger alliance to
maintain control. Ultimately, they pulled in Alex rather than the Rocket
scientist. All of them, including Deena, knew that Matt was next on the
boot list. Deena tried to change that agreed upon boot order. RobC. even
cautioned her that it was risky, but Deena was convinced that she could
persuade the person in charge (Jenna). Deena was wrong and Jenna used her
control to excise the backstabbing Deena.
Obveeus
Brandons of mass destruction wrote:
>This is because Chris was a lying idiot who had to be clued and told
>what to do by Twilia, then proceeded to lie Julie and Eliza for stupid,
>non game reasons WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE TO
Agreed. Chris did next to nothing to win the game.
>and then won because most of the
>other women were pissed at Twilia (not without reason).
I don't fault Leann for her vote. She was gone early and honestly could
have felt that Chris had to have done something to 'earn' his F2 position by
overcoming the male/female numbers.
As for Eliza...her vote was bitter and without game reason. Sure, Twila
worked REALLY hard to belittle Eliza and lose her vote, but Eliza should
still have voted for Twila to win vs. Chris. Eliza was smart enough to know
which one of them was playing well...in spite of Twila's extremely childish
attacks on Eliza.
>Chris got very,
>very lucky. Indeed, all the (supposed) talk about this season's jury
>being bitter was bull compared to S9 where Twilia was repeatedly raked
>over the coals for playing the game and S8 where real personal
>friendships were harmed if not destroyed.
I agree. This season's jury didn't seem bitter at all. They may have
'unfairly' felt that repeat players didn't deserve a second shot, but that
was MB's mistake, not theirs. Even Judd's final TC didn't seem bitter, it
just seemed like typical Judd crap. Certainly, it was nothing compared with
his bitter sniveling attacks against Margaret at her final TC.
Brett
Brian Smith wrote:
Maybe not. The backup plan if Danni won immunity was supposed to be Lydia. They
didn't follow through because of what Danni did. She could have done the same
thing without immunity and saved herself. Having immunity probably made it
easier for the others to boot Judd though.
Every Survivor has these type of boots. Rafe needed Danni whether Jamie and Judd
were "stable and sensible" or not. Danni convinced Steph to boot Judd. Rafe may
have used whoever was the last person. He could even have used Cindy and Lydia
but Danni worked Rafe to use her instead of them. Danni earned the win by first
convincing Rafe and then Steph. Then convincing Rafe to keep her at F4 sealed
it.
Sad Expat
> As for Eliza...her vote was bitter and without game reason. Sure, Twila
> worked REALLY hard to belittle Eliza and lose her vote, but Eliza should
> still have voted for Twila to win vs. Chris. Eliza was smart enough to know
> which one of them was playing well...in spite of Twila's extremely childish
> attacks on Eliza.
But that's part of the game. The players know they have to face a jury
at the end. They have to take that into account as they play the game.
They have to determine a strategy for voting people out so that the
dislodged will still give them the million dollars. Twila belittled
Eliza, earning her enmity, and Eliza voted against her. Twila played
that part of the game badly. She deserved to lose because she got to the
end and people were still pissed at her. That's her fault and it meant
she lost. That's the game.
When the jury votes to give the million dollars, there is no need for
all of them to suspend their emotions and vote for the most cunning.
They can vote with their emotions if they want to. If they are super
pissed at one finalist, then that finalist didn't play the game well
when they booted the player.
Every aspect of this show is part of the game. The only time the game
stops is when they sit down at the reunion show.
Rick K
lesbians all stick together through thick and thin regardless how they
screw each other along the way.
Too bad Stephenie could not learn from Twila's past mistakes. Stephenie
should of realized breaking it off in people's ass along the way is
eventually going to come back to haunt you.
Steven L.
In fact, recalling how Jerri cackled gleefully in S8 over finally having
gotten her revenge over Colby, one could argue that S2 didn't end even
after its reunion show. As far as Jerri was concerned, the game was
still on for three more years. :-)
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Steven L.
> "Steven L." <sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:Hpeqf.530$nu6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>We just don't seem to agree on how to rate players, that's all. I rate
>>players by how well they dealt with the situations that arose in the
>>game. Anybody who can survive the odds Danni faced and went on to win
>>was a damn good player.
>
>
> I'm not saying that Danni wasn't a good player but I just don't see her as
> being great. Based on your standards Chris from S9 (?) would have to be
> rated as probably the greatest player ever.
No. How did Chris deal with the situations that arose in the game? If
it hadn't been for Twila's help, Chris would never have gotten to F2.
> Yet, I don't see many people
> making that claim. Like Danni, Chris benefited to a great extent from having
> the other players either self destruct or eliminating each other and
> forgetting to finish off the "opposition."
In S9, Chris was to Twila what Amber was to Boston Rob in S8: The
likable but UTR player who profited while the stronger player was
disliked and took the arrows.
I do not equate Chris in S9 to Danni in S11, because after BJ and Gary
got booted, Danni had to cope with the Nakum alliance of 5 all by
herself. Unlike Chris or Amber, Danni had no strong player to hide behind.
jm...@msn.com
Silt wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:02:51 +1000, "Jason Smith"
> <jha...@iowuiouwio.com.nz> wrote:
>
> >She has a point. She did nothing immoral, only played the game at a level
> >where she had to betray a couple of people to get further. Danni, on the
> >other hand, rode on the coattails of more prominant players like Steph who
> >who were willing to take a leadership role and organise alliances to vote
> >certain people out. By definition, being a leader means sticking your neck
> >out, and opening yourself up to the anger of the people who get voted out.
> >It's a shame more people don't recognise how well she played the game, and
> >how much Danni was (comparitively) given a free ride.
> >
>
>
> Actually, Danni wasn't given a free ride. Post game interviews makes
> it clear that editing was the reason Danni was seen this way. She was
> very much in the decision making process and a leader in her tribe.
>
> Watch the Survivor Live interview on CBS' site with Steph and Danni,
> Danni talks about some of the early game votes she was instrumental
> in, but wasn't shown. Also, Steph pretty much admits Danni played her
> ass when it came to the Judd vote.
>
> Really a shame they gave Danni the edit they did, cause she played one
> hell of a game. Though doesn't surprise me, CBS wasn't going to give
> a positive edit to another woman when they had their darling Steph
> there. Hell, Jiffy didn't even have balls enough to announce the vote
> was 6-1 at the reunion show. Couldn't have their Stephy looking bad.
>
> Bottom line is Danni outplayed Steph, and outplayed her bad.
>
>
> Silt
Like Steph doesnt get it neither do I, I dont get the bitterness people
on this board have for her. Dont like her fine, but be objective. Your
post is a perfect example. Your points dont make sense. If she was the
darling wouldnt they edit it to show she lost because the eventual
winner played well rather than losing because the jury hated her? Come
on Silt.
And your points about post game interviews showing Danni played much
better than we were shown. You cite things Danni says, hello isnt she
going to speak herself up? You cite one thing someone else says besides
Danni herself and jump to the conclusion that she was edited wrong. Boy
you are really grasping at straws. Whats your real beef with Steph,
when did you really begin to dislike her?
Silt
Yeah, I guess I should make reference to every post game interview
that supports that Danni didn't get the edit she deserved. I also
should list the interviews where it was said Rafe was the one making
strategy and had his lapdog Steph try to carry out that strategy.
While I'm at it, I should also research and provide you links and
timestamps in the various videos that support all these claims.
OR...and here's a crazy idea, you can perhaps try watching/reading the
post boot/game interviews for yourself. You can start with the
Danni/Steph Survivor Live interview were everything I said above by
Danni was said with Steph sitting about 6 inches from her....and Steph
never countering what Danni claims.
OR...you can continue to believe CBS doesn't edit people in certain
ways and go on loving Steph and Rupert.
Silt
The Horny Goat
>He wasn'rt around long enough to stand out at all, so why does he hold such
>a special place in your heart vs. all the other early boots? Why aren't you
>pining over Jonathan (The S10 guy that never got picked for the game because
>he had the same social skills as Kel)? I think the Canadian thing has to be
>part of it.
I honestly don't think so.
What I do think is that Jerri and Tina took him out early in a less
than honest manner.
I think you insist on seeing a nationalistic streak where none exists.
Anyhow, Mrs. Goat is calling - it's time to go to the airport to pick
up the eldest kidling - the one who gave me the poster of Ethan for my
birthday :)
Obveeus
The Horny Goat wrote:
>What I do think is that Jerri and Tina took him out early in a less
>than honest manner.
>
>I think you insist on seeing a nationalistic streak where none exists.
The thing is, you can take the first four boots from 11 seasons and have 44
players. Every time people start talking about which of those 44 players
deserve another shot you come up with Jessie/Tanya...and we know what part
of you is doing the thinking there ;-) and Kel. I just don't get why Kel
sticks out at all for you. The guy had zero social skills and didn't stand
out physically at all. Nothing interesting...except maybe that 'Canadian'
thing. He is perfect early boot fodder.
>Anyhow, Mrs. Goat is calling - it's time to go to the airport to pick
>up the eldest kidling - the one who gave me the poster of Ethan for my
>birthday :)
I hope you plan to punish her. ;-)
The Horny Goat
>The thing is, you can take the first four boots from 11 seasons and have 44
>players. Every time people start talking about which of those 44 players
>deserve another shot you come up with Jessie/Tanya...and we know what part
>of you is doing the thinking there ;-) and Kel. I just don't get why Kel
>sticks out at all for you. The guy had zero social skills and didn't stand
>out physically at all. Nothing interesting...except maybe that 'Canadian'
>thing. He is perfect early boot fodder.
Other than being female, we all know what Jessie and Tanya have in
common. For those who didn't see the appropriate seasons, throwing up
in the bushes during the first week of the game is a pretty effective
way of getting booted.
S1 Sonia had the same problem but not being "hot" tends to get ignored
- has there in fact been ANY female contestant under age 30 that
wouldn't be considered "hot" to a certain extent? I can't think of
any men who got booted early chiefly for reasons of sickness.
As for Kel, I don't think he was any less gifted than say any of
Chris' male alliance or from last season Judd. If he was perfect early
boot fodder what does that make Robb or JFP?
>>Anyhow, Mrs. Goat is calling - it's time to go to the airport to pick
>>up the eldest kidling - the one who gave me the poster of Ethan for my
>>birthday :)
>
>I hope you plan to punish her. ;-)
Now now. Santa was nice to all my kids.
Francois
>- has there in fact been ANY female contestant under age 30 that
>wouldn't be considered "hot" to a certain extent?
How old was Ghandia?? [checks]. Oh, 33. You squeaked by with that one.
Actually, Shii Ann was under 30, and I can't recall anyone calling her
"hot". Tammy, as well, though very attractive, I can't recall being
called hot" by anyone. Maybe it's because both of these women seemed to
characterize themselves more by aggression and intelligence than by
beauty. What about Christy? Kelly W? There are several who I don't
recall anyone calling "hot"?
I believe, as Obveeus says, that you're thinking with the little head
when you do these musings...(not surprising, given your name!) ;-)
The Horny Goat
That was more Mrs. Goat's name for me than anything else. Early on I
tried to imitate a somewhat odd Wiccan but the truth is more an
Episcopalian Philatelist...
Jay
A stamp collector?
The Horny Goat
>>> I believe, as Obveeus says, that you're thinking with the little head
>>>when you do these musings...(not surprising, given your name!) ;-)
>>
>>That was more Mrs. Goat's name for me than anything else. Early on I
>>tried to imitate a somewhat odd Wiccan but the truth is more an
>>Episcopalian Philatelist...
>
> A stamp collector?
Good you knew.
I used that line in other newsgroups and got the DARNEDST responses!