Bad choices by SGC
Casey
there, and then never go back. They should be establishing more military
bases so that they can continue the war even after the Goa'uld attack Earth.
And then on top of that, they use Air Force Ground Troops! Come on, these
guys are just like the guys in red shirts on Star Trek, but they wear blue
berets. Air Force Security Personnel are just like MP's, but in the Air
Force. They are not assault troops or Recon troops at all. They simply
defend Air Force Bases. SGC should be a joint command so they can use the
best parts of all of the armed forces. They should use marines for
security, recon and assault troops. The Navy could contribute Seabee
engineers and Navy SEAL's for assassinations. The Air Force could handle
rescue attempts using USAF Pararescue specalists, and could provide air
support. The Army could provide almost everything. The Special Forces
could send through A-Teams to teach the local population of each planet how
to use guerilla warfare and fire weapons. They could also use Airborne
Rangers to gain control of the Stargate one the other planets or take over
Goa'uld cities. They could send through armored divisions to take major
planets. The 101st, or 82d Airborne could also be used to establish a base
around the stargate on other worlds.
Also, why doesn't SGC use some better weapons, at least the M-4's with
the M-203 grenade launchers on the bottom. The best current weapons in the
U.S. arsenal that could be used is the M-14 7.62mm rifle. It would provide
much better penetration. The best weapon to use would be the Objective
Individual Combat Weapon. It has a 25mm cannon mounted on top of a 5.56mm
machine gun. But no matter what weapon they are using, they should all be
using explosive ammunition. You don't have to treat the Goa'uld like humans
because they aren't, there aliens. Therefor the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights has no meaning. We can get as mean and nasty as we want. I
quote Nick Lappos, Chief R&D Pilot for Sikorsky Aircraft "If you're in a
fair fight, you didn't plan it properly." We don't have to be nice and fair
to the Goa'uld, there not going to be.
SGC is supposed to be the elite of the elite. Kind of like Delta Force
and SEAL Team 6. I have another quote from Col. Charlie Beckwith, the
founder of Delta Force "We ain't making no god!#$% cornflakes here." SGC
shouldn't be using conventional forces. They should take forces from the
whole military and train them for this specific mission.
Angof
Casey <caseym...@home.com> wrote in message
news:WCiy3.16405$Rn....@news.rdc2.occa.home.com...
> Why does Star Gate Command continue to just go to planets, see what's
> there, and then never go back. They should be establishing more military
> bases so that they can continue the war even after the Goa'uld attack
Earth.
> SGC is supposed to be the elite of the elite. Kind of like Delta
Force
> and SEAL Team 6. I have another quote from Col. Charlie Beckwith, the
> founder of Delta Force "We ain't making no god!#$% cornflakes here." SGC
> shouldn't be using conventional forces. They should take forces from the
> whole military and train them for this specific mission.
>
>
Whoah dude you certainly know your stuff. Sounds a bit much for the average
joe though.
I think most of us would get confused.
Alex Mortu
Casey has a point.
On the other hand. Goa'uld weapons are still far superior to human. Establishing
offworld bases in goa'uld lands would attaract their attention and get them
blasted, although bases on the unknown worlds (such as beta site) may be worth
it. BUT Project is very secret.
Okay I'll wait to see what others have to say 'fore jumpin' in further.
--
|===>
| Alex
| AIM:Mortu
| ICQ:11031847
|================>
Jim Witte
mo...@optonline.net writes:
>blasted, although bases on the unknown worlds (such as beta site) may be worth
>
What's beta site?
Taur'e
How would you get the planes there for Air support??
Mark Nguyen
> there, and then never go back. They should be establishing more military
> bases so that they can continue the war even after the Goa'uld attack
Earth.
No argument there. However, it costs an awful lot of money to do so. SGC has
had problems with this before, no reason to think that money can't keep them
from doing all that stuff you ask for. Also the secrecy of the thing keeps
too many people from getting involved; perhaps that's some deterrent from
making this too-joint a venture.
OTOH, there *were* Marines present, in SG3. They disappear later on (I don't
think Makepeace's SG3 are Marines)m but they were there later.
> Also, why doesn't SGC use some better weapons, at least the M-4's with
> the M-203 grenade launchers on the bottom. The best current weapons in
the
> U.S. arsenal that could be used is the M-14 7.62mm rifle. It would
provide
> much better penetration. The best weapon to use would be the Objective
> Individual Combat Weapon. It has a 25mm cannon mounted on top of a 5.56mm
> machine gun.
The reason behind the use of the 'lil submachineguns is mostly dramatic
liscence. The H&K's are smaller and easier for the actors to carry about,
and don't get in the way as much as an M-4.
But no matter what weapon they are using, they should all be
> using explosive ammunition. You don't have to treat the Goa'uld like
humans
> because they aren't, there aliens. Therefor the Universal Declaration of
> Human Rights has no meaning. We can get as mean and nasty as we want. I
> quote Nick Lappos, Chief R&D Pilot for Sikorsky Aircraft "If you're in a
> fair fight, you didn't plan it properly." We don't have to be nice and
fair
> to the Goa'uld, there not going to be.
But it wouldn't be as fun then to see sparks fly over the guards as our
heroes spray them with a hail of bullets. :) Plus, blowing them up with
explosives is much more expensive, FX-wise. And pieces of exploded Goa'uld
carcass don't make for very good television viewing for most people. :)
> SGC is supposed to be the elite of the elite. Kind of like Delta
Force
> and SEAL Team 6. I have another quote from Col. Charlie Beckwith, the
> founder of Delta Force "We ain't making no god!#$% cornflakes here." SGC
> shouldn't be using conventional forces. They should take forces from the
> whole military and train them for this specific mission.
Yup.
Mark
Casey
Taur'e <Rb...@home.com> wrote in message
news:2Wny3.15094$3%1.4...@news.rdc1.az.home.com...
> How would you get the planes there for Air support??
>
However, for the main assult, the Marines have AV-8B Harrier 2 VTOL aircraft
that can fit through the gate when the wings fold up (because there stored
on aircraft carriers below decks they do that.) You would also send through
helocopters that have 2 rotor blades and then start them up as soon as they
got through the gate. So basically within 3 min. you would have at least a
squadern of harriers and about 4 helocopers in the air.
Casey
Alex Mortu <mo...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:37C9F3F9...@optonline.net...
> Hail
> Casey has a point.
> On the other hand. Goa'uld weapons are still far superior to human.
Establishing
> offworld bases in goa'uld lands would attaract their attention and get
them
worth
> Okay I'll wait to see what others have to say 'fore jumpin' in further.
>
They would only get blasted if someone got away. Thats why you would
put an iris on the gate, and then leave it open until the Jaffa get through.
Then you close it and kill them all. The Jaffa only come through at a
maximum of a group of ten. I think that a Division of 20,000 men could
handle 10 Jaffa.
michael gentry
teams. We just don't get to here about that. the main focus of the
stories are on SG-1.
Stephen Crocker
"Casey" <caseym...@home.com> wrote:
Yes, but how would you get them in that little lift? ;-)
--
x^ ( ) _________ // Email: mailto:cr...@crok.demon.co.uk
< U O |_|_|_|_|_| O || WWW: http://www.crok.demon.co.uk
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Wolf-NUTS
attack by the goa'uld
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Jim Witte <wit...@denison.edu> wrote in message
news:7qd1d5$vgp$1...@topsy.kiva.net...
> In article <37C9F3F9...@optonline.net> Alex Mortu,
> mo...@optonline.net writes:
> >blasted, although bases on the unknown worlds (such as beta site) may be
worth
> >
>
> What's beta site?
Wolf-NUTS
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Casey <caseym...@home.com> wrote in message
news:WCiy3.16405$Rn....@news.rdc2.occa.home.com...
snip snip sniperoo
Wolf-NUTS
main crew back to planets theyve already been too .....
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michael gentry <mjge...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22211-37C...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Stephen Crocker
mjge...@webtv.net (michael gentry) wrote:
> The SGC has gone back to other planets. That's why they have other SG
> teams. We just don't get to here about that. the main focus of the
> stories are on SG-1.
Erm... That might just be why it's called Stargate SG-1! ;-)
--
x^ ( ) _________ // Email: mailto:cr...@crok.demon.co.uk
< U O |_|_|_|_|_| O || WWW: http://www.crok.demon.co.uk
\, |/|\ _________ [ ]
. |/^\ . 2 . /__\
... In nuclear warfare all men are cremated equal.
Mark Evans
> Taur'e <Rb...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:2Wny3.15094$3%1.4...@news.rdc1.az.home.com...
>>
>> Casey <caseym...@home.com> wrote in message
>> news:WCiy3.16405$Rn....@news.rdc2.occa.home.com...
>> <Snip>
>> How would you get the planes there for Air support??
>>
> All aircraft can fit through the gate it you take off the wings.
> However, for the main assult, the Marines have AV-8B Harrier 2 VTOL aircraft
I think you mean all *fighter* aircraft... (Though presumably an E4 "attack laser"
is technically a "fighter".) If you could come up with a way to fly an E3
sentry, RC135, B52 or K10 through the gate then things get interesting...
> that can fit through the gate when the wings fold up (because there stored
> on aircraft carriers below decks they do that.) You would also send through
> helocopters that have 2 rotor blades and then start them up as soon as they
> got through the gate. So basically within 3 min. you would have at least a
> squadern of harriers and about 4 helocopers in the air.
However getting the aircraft into the bunker is also tricky.. So you don't
send them from the SG-C, Groom Lake (which IIRC correctly is where the
second stargate is) would make a far better embarkation facility.
Joker6
Jim Witte <wit...@denison.edu> wrote in message
news:7qd1d5$vgp$1...@topsy.kiva.net...
> In article <37C9F3F9...@optonline.net> Alex Mortu,
> mo...@optonline.net writes:
> >blasted, although bases on the unknown worlds (such as beta site) may be
worth
> >
>
> What's beta site?
An excellent base they developed but abandoned when the VHS site became more
popular.
Joker6
Mark Nguyen <mng...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aWny3.8469$c8.5...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
>
>
> No argument there. However, it costs an awful lot of money to do so. SGC
has
> had problems with this before, no reason to think that money can't keep
them
> from doing all that stuff you ask for. Also the secrecy of the thing keeps
> too many people from getting involved; perhaps that's some deterrent from
> making this too-joint a venture.
>
at normal temperatures. The commercial value of a superconductor that needs
no expensive and cumbersome liquid nitrogen cooling system would be
incalculable. Going back to Abados (sp?) and setting up a permanent base
could be a sound strategic move. Put an Iris on the Abados gate to control
access, send an Army Special Forces team through to train the locals to
defend themselves against the Goa'uld, (we could send them Russian made
equipment, its inexpensive, reliable, and the Russians need the money so
they wouldn't ask too many questions) and an engineering unit to teach
advanced mining practices. Even the use of the small earth moving equipment
they could send through the gate would allow them to bring back large
amounts of Naquida. The sale of the mineral for commercial use as a
superconductor could finance SGC operations, and provide development funds
for the people of Abados.
MadiHolmes
>they could send through the gate would allow them to bring back large
>amounts of Naquida. The sale of the mineral for commercial use as a
>superconductor could finance SGC operations, and provide development funds
>for the people of Abados.
>
The only problem with this is that there are a lot bad feeling from the
ex-slaves. I'm pretty sure that if Earth humans "asked" them to start mining
again, more than one Abydos native would begin to feel that they traded the
Gou'ald for just another set of masters. I doubt there would be any forced
labor, but there are still some emotions, and some these could be transferred
onto the Humans.
sHolmes
Casey
MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990830132930...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
get a paycheck. If we asked them to do it and explained to them that this
is the best way that they can get back at there former masters, I'm sure
they would volunteer if they knew that they would be helping defeat the
Goa'uld. Once they started getting novileties such as flushing toilets and
running water, and air conditioning anyone that didn't like it would change
their mind and say to themselves "old masters: treated us like crap, new
employers: pay us and give us cool stuff that i woun't have anymore if i
don't work for them." I'm sure that would keep them going.
>
Wolf-NUTS
abydosians besides with machinery that could be built on the planet and used
it would be alot better conditions than what they were using
--
I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
MadiHolmes
>get a paycheck. If we asked them to do it and explained to them that this
>is the best way that they can get back at there former masters, I'm sure
>they would volunteer if they knew that they would be helping defeat the
>Goa'uld. Once they started getting novileties such as flushing toilets and
>running water, and air conditioning anyone that didn't like it would change
>their mind and say to themselves "old masters: treated us like crap, new
>employers: pay us and give us cool stuff that i woun't have anymore if i
>don't work for them." I'm sure that would keep them going.
>>
Yes, if this were a perfecst world. But you have to realize that these are
ex-slaves. For the first time in their life, they are free. Then comes in
another group who promises them "flushing toilets and money". First off, what
are they going to do with money? It's not like there's a convenience store
right down the block. These people live in primitive conditions, whatever they
can't get themselves, they probably barter. Daniel most likely taught them some
stuff (like better sanitation, medical, and the like), however, these people
already have a working culture, you just can't Americanize them overnight.
Second of all, think if you were in their place. Suddenly, they are free, to do
what they like with whom they like. No tributes, no "god", no slave labor. But,
all of the sudden, here comes some more people who want them to start mining
again. Why? To defeat the Gou'ald. Fine, that's just dandy, however, wouldn't
you be a little worried that these new strangers would go back on their word,
and the slavery would start again. They trust Daniel and, most likely, Jack,
but what of the rest? Who's to say that once their contacts are gone, some
other stranger will come and take over. It's paranoia, to be truthful, but,
it's also completely possible.
sHolmes
Gareth Kitchener
> you just can't Americanize them overnight.
>
You say that as if it would be a *good* thing! ;-)
--
Gareth Kitchener
Bedfordshire, England.
ICQ 22032114
Secret Agent 42
Casey wrote:
> Alex Mortu <mo...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:37C9F3F9...@optonline.net...
> > Hail
> > Casey has a point.
> > On the other hand. Goa'uld weapons are still far superior to human.
> Establishing
> > offworld bases in goa'uld lands would attaract their attention and get
> them
> > blasted, although bases on the unknown worlds (such as beta site) may be
> worth
> > it. BUT Project is very secret.
> > Okay I'll wait to see what others have to say 'fore jumpin' in further.
> >
>
> They would only get blasted if someone got away. Thats why you would
> put an iris on the gate, and then leave it open until the Jaffa get through.
> Then you close it and kill them all. The Jaffa only come through at a
> maximum of a group of ten. I think that a Division of 20,000 men could
> handle 10 Jaffa.
'cept that they can fly gliders thru the gates. Or just send a bomb thru and
hold the gate open so they can't get rid of it. They can't risk leaving the
gate open.
--
Garth Marlin
Definitely not a secret agent. Really.
Now go away, You'll blow my cover.
Secret Agent 42
Casey wrote:
> MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19990830132930...@ng-fn1.aol.com...
> > >Even the use of the small earth moving equipment
> > >they could send through the gate would allow them to bring back large
> > >amounts of Naquida. The sale of the mineral for commercial use as a
> > >superconductor could finance SGC operations, and provide development
> funds
> > >for the people of Abados.
> > >
> >
> > The only problem with this is that there are a lot bad feeling from the
> > ex-slaves. I'm pretty sure that if Earth humans "asked" them to start
> mining
> > again, more than one Abydos native would begin to feel that they traded
> the
> > Gou'ald for just another set of masters. I doubt there would be any forced
> > labor, but there are still some emotions, and some these could be
> transferred
> > onto the Humans.
> >
> > sHolmes
> Thats what a job is. Theres a difference. In slave labor you don't
> get a paycheck. If we asked them to do it and explained to them that this
> is the best way that they can get back at there former masters, I'm sure
> they would volunteer if they knew that they would be helping defeat the
> Goa'uld. Once they started getting novileties such as flushing toilets and
> running water, and air conditioning anyone that didn't like it would change
> their mind and say to themselves "old masters: treated us like crap, new
> employers: pay us and give us cool stuff that i woun't have anymore if i
> don't work for them." I'm sure that would keep them going.
> >
'cept we would have to go in and set up and virtually if not directly run their
government. With Ra gone some one is bound to step in and take advantage. These
people have had a totalitarian dictatorship for as long as they can remember.
They aren't going to change overnight. We would be taking advantage of them.
MadiHolmes
>> you just can't Americanize them overnight.
>>
>
>
>You say that as if it would be a *good* thing! ;-)
>
Believe me, that was the polar opposite of what I meant <g>
sHolmes
Matthew
the Senate oversight committee say when asked to approve funding for all
these off-world bases? I think they'd get rather suspicious if they saw,
to use a rather well-known line, "$20,000 for a toilet seat or $30,000 for
a hammer."
--
Replace the .invalid with .com to reply via e-mail
Casey <caseym...@home.com> wrote in article
<WCiy3.16405$Rn....@news.rdc2.occa.home.com>...
> Why does Star Gate Command continue to just go to planets, see what's
> there, and then never go back. They should be establishing more military
> bases so that they can continue the war even after the Goa'uld attack
Earth.
> And then on top of that, they use Air Force Ground Troops! Come on,
these
> guys are just like the guys in red shirts on Star Trek, but they wear
blue
> berets. Air Force Security Personnel are just like MP's, but in the Air
> Force. They are not assault troops or Recon troops at all. They simply
> defend Air Force Bases. SGC should be a joint command so they can use
the
> best parts of all of the armed forces. They should use marines for
> security, recon and assault troops. The Navy could contribute Seabee
> engineers and Navy SEAL's for assassinations. The Air Force could handle
> rescue attempts using USAF Pararescue specalists, and could provide air
> support. The Army could provide almost everything. The Special Forces
> could send through A-Teams to teach the local population of each planet
how
> to use guerilla warfare and fire weapons. They could also use Airborne
> Rangers to gain control of the Stargate one the other planets or take
over
> Goa'uld cities. They could send through armored divisions to take major
> planets. The 101st, or 82d Airborne could also be used to establish a
base
> around the stargate on other worlds.
[snip]
Joker6
Secret Agent 42 <gar...@tgn.net> wrote in message
news:37CAC3FE...@tgn.net...
>
>
> 'cept we would have to go in and set up and virtually if not directly run
their
> government. With Ra gone some one is bound to step in and take advantage.
These
> people have had a totalitarian dictatorship for as long as they can
remember.
> They aren't going to change overnight. We would be taking advantage of
them.
>
> --
You say that like it was a bad thing. Sure at some level we would be taking
advantage of them. Compared to their other choices, like defending
themselves alone from the Goa'uld and living in a vast desert without
resources, they may not have any other good options and we would be taking
advantage of that. (by the way, what does one do all day in a society that
existed only to dig rocks for a master when the master has been kicked out?)
But working by agreement with those who helped set you free and at least
have some level of concern for you is a vast step up from what they have.
And at the same time they would be taking advantage of our need for naquida
to receive resources and assistance they otherwise would not have.
Remember, this is not a naturally evolving native population. These are
slaves transported by the Goa'uld whose development was artificially
suppressed.
Wolf-NUTS
--
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Matthew <10452...@compuserve.invalid> wrote in message
news:01bef398$537f9000$67106ecb@matthew1...
major flawed movie snippage
Matthew
rather apt.
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Wolf-NUTS <Wolf...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<QKYy3.6973$F4.1...@news5.giganews.com>...
> ack you quoted independance day
>
> major flawed movie snippage
billingsfamily
missions of the SG1 team ..... so showing any detail of what happens with
these planets after they are explored by SG1 is only relevant if it pertains
to another mission of SG1. SG1 members are in the credits not the members
of SG 2, 3, 4....etc.... that seems to be the point. Regarding what to do
regarding these worlds after they are explored by SG1.... perhaps that would
make a good series of books or short stories... just thinking.
Wolf-NUTS
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billingsfamily <billing...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:eZD4VGM9#GA.309@cpmsnbbsa05...
Scott Johnson
writers would run out of ideas really fast....
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Wolf-NUTS <Wolf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b6jz3.8698$F4.2...@news5.giganews.com...
Wolf-NUTS
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MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990902002041...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
> >that seems to be the point. Regarding what to do
> >regarding these worlds after they are explored by SG1.... perhaps that
would
> >make a good series of books or short stories... just thinking.
>
> I smell a spin-off...Star Gate: The Next SG Perhaps? <eg>
>
> sHolmes
MadiHolmes
Meredith Lynne
<Wolf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>naturally we would bring our own people in to help and would compensate the
>abydosians besides with machinery that could be built on the planet and used
>it would be alot better conditions than what they were using
That thumping sound you hear is the alternate-reality Daniel Jackson
turning over in his grave. <g> And every other anthropologist who
ever walked the earth...(with the possible exception of Malinowski).
Granted, the society on Abydos has already been mucked up beyond
belief -- what with not even being an Abydosian culture, and what with
having been transplanted through an interstellar wormhole from their
home planet, and what with other generally disruptive events like
humans showing up to blow their God to smithereens with a nuclear
device ocurring every time they look away from the stargate.
And granted, the SGC has thus far shown remarkably little interest in
the concept of self-determination for non-Earth societies, what with
having to save all of our silly necks from the Goa'uld threat once a
week and all.
And granted, even, that Jack and Daniel *personally* armed a group of
Abydosian children with automatic weapons from earth on their first
trip through the gate, and that Daniel thereafter apparently continued
to encourage them to use said weapons for what are actually fairly
decent reasons.
*Still*.
Daniel would also know that many Earth cultures have been destroyed by
the Western concept of making things "better" for people who were
basically doing ok on their own. (Did you see Skaara's *teeth*?
Either those Abydosians eat pretty good, or that kid had group dental
insurance. And I'm not even going to get started on Sha'uri's hair.)
So I don't see Daniel Jackson being thrilled with the concept of earth
humans running the show on Abydos, throwing new technology at them in
huge batches, or sending them back to the mines for the good of
mankind. In fact, I think it's more likely that he'd fight something
like that tooth and nail. (And lose, making him look all angsty and
beautiful -- and later win, anyway, when some wiser alien race
prevented the destruction of the Abydosians way of life, forcing Jack
to admit that he wasn't all that thrilled with the idea in the first
place... -- but that's another episode <grin>.) Daniel would prefer,
imho, to preserve as much of the Abydosian's right to
self-determination as possible under the circumstances, even at the
expense of tactical advantages that might be gained by relieving them
of that right.
Which brings us to the concept of strategy vs. morality...
Which brings us back to: Does the SGC make bad decisions?
From a tactical standpoint, of course they do. One of the major
points of the show as a whole is that you sometimes have to sacrifice
tactical gains for moral ends. The question of honor and what serves
to satisfy it is pivotal in SG1. ("I die *free*..."). (Come on, you
guys didn't think this show was about *science*, did you? <g>)
So: The real question should be: Are the bad tactical decisions made
by SG1 and the SGC simply the consequence of good moral and ethical
decisions?
And if so, is it worth it?
(And if not...why are we still watching it?)
--Meredith
(remove the "dot" from address to reply by email)
Joker6
Meredith Lynne <boojum@tricksterdotorg> wrote in message
news:7gfONzAHcjl=6tjePEPH...@4ax.com...
> That thumping sound you hear is the alternate-reality Daniel Jackson
> turning over in his grave. <g> And every other anthropologist who
> ever walked the earth...(with the possible exception of Malinowski).
The concern of anthropologists for the preservation of each culture comes
from the particular world view they have that every society is of equal
value and that one is not morally, ethically, or otherwise "better" than
another. I don't happen to agree. (Arrogant American? Damn Straight! and
proud of it.) I don't believe that tampering with a culture founded on
slavery is the evil most anthropologists would think it is. (but that's a
discussion for another NG)
>
> Granted, the society on Abydos has already been mucked up beyond
> belief -- what with not even being an Abydosian culture, and what with
> having been transplanted through an interstellar wormhole from their
> home planet, and what with other generally disruptive events like
> humans showing up to blow their God to smithereens with a nuclear
> device ocurring every time they look away from the stargate.
>
> And granted, the SGC has thus far shown remarkably little interest in
> the concept of self-determination for non-Earth societies, what with
> having to save all of our silly necks from the Goa'uld threat once a
> week and all.
>
> And granted, even, that Jack and Daniel *personally* armed a group of
> Abydosian children with automatic weapons from earth on their first
> trip through the gate, and that Daniel thereafter apparently continued
> to encourage them to use said weapons for what are actually fairly
> decent reasons.
>
> *Still*.
>
> Daniel would also know that many Earth cultures have been destroyed by
> the Western concept of making things "better" for people who were
> basically doing ok on their own. (Did you see Skaara's *teeth*?
> Either those Abydosians eat pretty good, or that kid had group dental
> insurance. And I'm not even going to get started on Sha'uri's hair.)
>
Yea, the look of the people of Abydos has nothing to do with the fact the
people actually come from western democracies on 20th century earth, or the
quality of the make-up department.
>
> So I don't see Daniel Jackson being thrilled with the concept of earth
> humans running the show on Abydos, throwing new technology at them in
> huge batches, or sending them back to the mines for the good of
> mankind. In fact, I think it's more likely that he'd fight something
> like that tooth and nail. (And lose, making him look all angsty and
> beautiful -- and later win, anyway, when some wiser alien race
> prevented the destruction of the Abydosians way of life, forcing Jack
> to admit that he wasn't all that thrilled with the idea in the first
> place... -- but that's another episode <grin>.) Daniel would prefer,
> imho, to preserve as much of the Abydosian's right to
> self-determination as possible under the circumstances, even at the
> expense of tactical advantages that might be gained by relieving them
> of that right.
What right to self determination? The one that took them as slaves in the
first place? Oh, you mean the one that organized their society for the sole
purpose of digging out a rock that was of no actual value to that society,
other of course than to keep them from getting killed by their masters. Or
perhaps you mean the self determination that allowed them to select a
religious system that has an alien elevated to the position of god and makes
them all work as his slaves. Silly me!! You're referring to the right to
self determination that prohibited the use of written language, mandated
ignorance, and kept social development contained inside artificially imposed
limits. Just which of these rights to self determination would Daniel be
fighting to preserve?
(snippage)
> So: The real question should be: Are the bad tactical decisions made
> by SG1 and the SGC simply the consequence of good moral and ethical
> decisions?
If only that were true. Most often it's the result of bad writing.
>
> And if so, is it worth it?
Interesting question of morality and ethics. If I have a social system that
preserves individual rights, and I allow an individual to exercise those
rights to bring about the destruction of that system, have I behaved
morally? If protecting the "self determination" of the slave cultures SG1
encounters, results in humans on earth loosing to the Goa'uld, thus
eliminating the only obstacle to continued Goa'uld control of slave
cultures, is protecting that "self determination" the moral choice? Or put
another way, which is the moral choice: to temporarily violate a generally
held value of individual and societal freedom to preserve the culture that
holds the value; or to uphold the value and permit the destruction of the
culture by those who do not hold the value at all? (you didn't think
choices were always simply black and white or good and bad did you???)
Tough choices. And their not unique to TV shows. Check out the choices
Lincoln made as President during the US Civil War. Most of the civil rights
guaranteed by the US Constitution were suspended while Lincoln fought a war
to preserve ... the rights guaranteed by the US Constitution. (Of course
he couldn't solve his problems in an hour a week on Friday nights.)
>
> (And if not...why are we still watching it?)
Cause Babylon 5 isn't on anymore ;-)
Angof
hee hee
MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990902002041...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
Stephen Crocker
madih...@aol.com (MadiHolmes) wrote:
> >that seems to be the point. Regarding what to do
> >regarding these worlds after they are explored by SG1.... perhaps that would
> >make a good series of books or short stories... just thinking.
>
> I smell a spin-off...Star Gate: The Next SG Perhaps? <eg>
Stargate SG-2
Stargate SG-3
Stargate SG-4
etc...
;-)
--
x^ ( ) _________ // Email: mailto:cr...@crok.demon.co.uk
< U O |_|_|_|_|_| O || WWW: http://www.crok.demon.co.uk
\, |/|\ _________ [ ]
. |/^\ . 2 . /__\
... Does Windows 95 come with a Hard Drive?
Wolf-NUTS
me say could be done me no say would be done ...
besides no need abyodos people we do selves no interfere with them
grunt grunt grunt ugh grunt
--
I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
Meredith Lynne <boojum@tricksterdotorg> wrote in message
news:7gfONzAHcjl=6tjePEPH...@4ax.com...
tarzan no like big words ...ugh ugh snip ugh
Meredith Lynne
>The concern of anthropologists for the preservation of each culture comes
>from the particular world view they have that every society is of equal
>value and that one is not morally, ethically, or otherwise "better" than
>another. I don't happen to agree. (Arrogant American? Damn Straight! and
>proud of it.)
Well, that's certainly going to put a damper on the discussion...
> I don't believe that tampering with a culture founded on
>slavery is the evil most anthropologists would think it is. (but that's a
>discussion for another NG)
I didn't say that freeing the Abydosians from slavery was an evil (in
fact, I said kind of the opposite, very carefully). But once they're
free, don't they have the right to decide whether they want the United
States of America tromping into what's become their home and setting
up machines and mining their land and telling them what to do because
by God, Uncle Sam knows best?
>Yea, the look of the people of Abydos has nothing to do with the fact the
>people actually come from western democracies on 20th century earth, or the
>quality of the make-up department.
Ah, the part where we get to decide which part of the presentation is
meant to be "true" in the SG1 universe and which part of the
presentation is just part of the presentation. It's entirely within
the realm of the make-up and wardrobe department's capabilities to
make people from western democracies on 20th century Earth look
impoverished and unhealthy and malnourished; I tend to think if they
chose not to do that, they chose for a reason. Strictly interpretive,
but it makes the puzzle a lot more fun to play with.
>What right to self determination? The one that took them as slaves in the
>first place? Oh, you mean the one that organized their society for the sole
>purpose of digging out a rock that was of no actual value to that society,
>other of course than to keep them from getting killed by their masters. Or
>perhaps you mean the self determination that allowed them to select a
>religious system that has an alien elevated to the position of god and makes
>them all work as his slaves. Silly me!! You're referring to the right to
>self determination that prohibited the use of written language, mandated
>ignorance, and kept social development contained inside artificially imposed
>limits. Just which of these rights to self determination would Daniel be
>fighting to preserve?
So, the fact that the Abydosians were once enslaved gives the United
States the right to take over their lives? The fact that the
Abydosians believed that an alien possessed of unimaginable
technology, who proclaimed himself a god and performed what had to
seem like god-like feats, was actually a *god* -- this makes it okay
for the United States to take over their lands and administer their
mineral rights? We get to enslave and exploit them because Ra did?
How very enlightened. You'd be a big hit on the Reservations.
The right to self-determination exists independent of the ability to
exercise it. You don't forfeit the right when the ability is
temporarily taken from you. Regardless of their enslavement under Ra,
the Abydosians are now *free*. They've been living free for two years
by the time they re-open the gate for Daniel to come back through.
And while they may be living in tents in the desert, that doesn't
necessarily mean they're wafting about in the parlor room of Grim
Death. The group we see in Children of the Gods is a happy group;
they have food, they have leisure time to make moonshine and create
jewelry; the have clothing and water and shelter. They're doing just
fine without us, actually, until the other Goa'uld show up.
And when that happens, it doesn't give the United States a right to
take over their society. The Abydosians might very well ask for the
protection of the United States, but if they do so, they do it as a
sovereign nation making a treaty, and not as chattel for us to dispose
of as we see fit. The Abydosians have a right to choose, and to
negotiate.
>(snippage)
>> So: The real question should be: Are the bad tactical decisions made
>> by SG1 and the SGC simply the consequence of good moral and ethical
>> decisions?
>
>If only that were true. Most often it's the result of bad writing.
And glib answers are most often the result of lazy thinking. Blaming
it on bad writing is nothing but a cool-sounding shortcut. Sure, some
of the writing is bad -- but most of it's not, and most of it cycles
around the question of tactical gain vs. moral responsibility.
>>
>> And if so, is it worth it?
>
>Interesting question of morality and ethics. If I have a social system that
>preserves individual rights, and I allow an individual to exercise those
>rights to bring about the destruction of that system, have I behaved
>morally?
You've obeyed the letter of your own code, yes. Which isn't to say
that you're not free to advise and warn that individual that he or she
is on a destructive path if you can see it. I'd go so far as to say
it's your moral responsibility to warn him he's on a destructive path.
But if you use force to prevent someone from exercising his own will,
you've broken your own code. You're assuming that the only way to
prevent destruction is to take away a person's right to choose; that's
not so. You also have the power to prevent destruction by giving that
person the information he needs to make an informed choice on his own.
You can persuade, you can bribe, you can influence. What you can't do
is decide *for* him. Not if you're going to uphold the code you have
in your example, the code that preserves an individual's right to
self-determination.
> If protecting the "self determination" of the slave cultures SG1
>encounters, results in humans on earth loosing to the Goa'uld, thus
>eliminating the only obstacle to continued Goa'uld control of slave
>cultures, is protecting that "self determination" the moral choice? Or put
>another way, which is the moral choice: to temporarily violate a generally
>held value of individual and societal freedom to preserve the culture that
>holds the value; or to uphold the value and permit the destruction of the
>culture by those who do not hold the value at all? (you didn't think
>choices were always simply black and white or good and bad did you???)
Nope, I didn't. And even here in the good old US of A we don't allow
complete self-determination. Basically, we allow one another complete
self-determination until that right impinges upon someone *else's*
right to self-determination. You can't kill me or steal from me or
hurt me without paying a legal penalty. In those cases, your right to
self-determination is forfeit because you've interfered with mine.
(But then, the US is also kind of notorious for applying its
high-minded moral code to its own people and to hell with everybody
else. Go ask a Native American.)
And still, you're making a vastly inaccurate and very simplistic
assumption: that the only way to save Earth is to violate the rights
of the Abydosians. Not so; there are other avenues of influence than
force, other ways to get what we would need than *taking* it.
Talk about black and white. Violating the rights of outsiders who've
done us no harm and offered us no threat might make the US powerful
and safe -- but it doesn't make it *right*. Not when there are other
ways.
>Tough choices. And their not unique to TV shows. Check out the choices
>Lincoln made as President during the US Civil War. Most of the civil rights
>guaranteed by the US Constitution were suspended while Lincoln fought a war
>to preserve ... the rights guaranteed by the US Constitution. (Of course
>he couldn't solve his problems in an hour a week on Friday nights.)
Surely, though, you can see that the choices made in the Civil War by
Lincoln were choices made for his own people -- people who'd given him
the right to make certain choices for them. (Leaving aside, for the
moment, the fact that most of the people who got to choose were white
males -- that's definitely another question for another ng). The US
would have absolutely no right to make those kinds of decisions for
another sovereign nation. That's the kind of thinking that brought
slavery to this country in the first place -- many of our ancestors
viewed Africans as simplistic and crude, living marginal lives, unable
to take care of themselves properly:
Surely they'd be better off serving white land-owners, being provided
for by white owners, than they were wallowing in squalor and their own
ignorance -- right? Not to mention the fact that they obviously had
no idea how to manage their own resources -- hell, we were doing them
a favor -- right? So, they have to be slaves. We need them, we need
what they have, and they're better off this way anyway and besides,
look at how they live -- they'd probably be grateful for our help --
right?
And we don't have to just talk about slavery -- we can talk about the
Native Americans, too -- utterly disenfranchised by our ancestors for
the crime of mismanaging resources *we* wanted. Besides, they talked
funny and dressed funny and worshipped false gods -- and we knew what
was best, as always.
>> (And if not...why are we still watching it?)
>Cause Babylon 5 isn't on anymore ;-)
Well, that would be the foudation of our problem, I guess. I'm
watching it cause I *like* it. =)
--Meredith
(remove the "dot" from address to reply)
MadiHolmes
>copy cat heh
>
Not quite. More like "GMTA" syndrome. I hear it affected Newton with his
calculus and some German unknown guy <G>
sHolmes
MadiHolmes
>Stargate SG-2
>Stargate SG-3
>Stargate SG-4
>etc...
Star Gate: With a Vengeance
Star Gate: The Final Gate
Star Gate 2: Jaffa Day
The Daughter of Star Gate
National Star Gate's Vacation
And Finally,
Star Gate 2000. <G>
sHolmes
100 Brownie points if you get them all <g>
MadiHolmes
He thrives on the study of other cultures and languages. The worst thing an
anthropologist can do is to try to tamper with his or her culture that they're
studying. It's like destroying a lab sample. The sample is contaminated, and
thus loses its uniqueness.
The second worst thing to do is to "go native" (which Daniel seems to have
done<g>). This ruins the scientist's impartialness to do an unbiased study.
Of course, since Daniel probably isn't going to publish anytime soon. This
won't really come in question. <G>
sHolmes
Curt Mueller
Meredith Lynne <boojum@tricksterdotorg> wrote in message
> So, the fact that the Abydosians were once enslaved gives the United
> States the right to take over their lives? The fact that the
> Abydosians believed that an alien possessed of unimaginable
> technology, who proclaimed himself a god and performed what had to
> seem like god-like feats, was actually a *god* -- this makes it okay
> for the United States to take over their lands and administer their
> mineral rights? We get to enslave and exploit them because Ra did?
Enslave and Exploit? A rather narrow interpritation. Having removed the
slave master, it is exploitive to ask those who benifit to aid in
maintaining their freedom?
>
> How very enlightened. You'd be a big hit on the Reservations.
>
> The right to self-determination exists independent of the ability to
> exercise it. You don't forfeit the right when the ability is
> temporarily taken from you. Regardless of their enslavement under Ra,
> the Abydosians are now *free*. They've been living free for two years
> by the time they re-open the gate for Daniel to come back through.
> And while they may be living in tents in the desert, that doesn't
> necessarily mean they're wafting about in the parlor room of Grim
> Death. The group we see in Children of the Gods is a happy group;
> they have food, they have leisure time to make moonshine and create
> jewelry; the have clothing and water and shelter. They're doing just
> fine without us, actually, until the other Goa'uld show up.
> >Interesting question of morality and ethics. If I have a social system
that
> >preserves individual rights, and I allow an individual to exercise those
> >rights to bring about the destruction of that system, have I behaved
> >morally?
>
> You've obeyed the letter of your own code, yes. Which isn't to say
> that you're not free to advise and warn that individual that he or she
> is on a destructive path if you can see it. I'd go so far as to say
> it's your moral responsibility to warn him he's on a destructive path.
> But if you use force to prevent someone from exercising his own will,
> you've broken your own code. You're assuming that the only way to
> prevent destruction is to take away a person's right to choose; that's
> not so.
An assumption on your part. You assume that there are other options. Thats
not always true.
So under your ethics, as long as you are only killing and enslaving your own
people, thats ok. Its only when you enslave other people that outsiders
have the right to take action.
>That's the kind of thinking that brought
> slavery to this country in the first place -- many of our ancestors
> viewed Africans as simplistic and crude, living marginal lives, unable
> to take care of themselves properly:
>
> Surely they'd be better off serving white land-owners, being provided
> for by white owners, than they were wallowing in squalor and their own
> ignorance -- right? Not to mention the fact that they obviously had
> no idea how to manage their own resources -- hell, we were doing them
> a favor -- right? So, they have to be slaves. We need them, we need
> what they have, and they're better off this way anyway and besides,
> look at how they live -- they'd probably be grateful for our help --
> right?
Bull! Those who engaged in slavery didn't give a rat's ass about the people
they enslaved. They cared about the cheapest way to harvest their fields,
work in their factories, make their roads, or whatever other economic
pursuit needed attention. (This applies not just to slavery in the early
US. Remember slavery was a common practice in nearly every early society.)
They may have launched into the, They're better off, argument to make
themselves feel better, but I doubt it was a factor in the decision to keep
slaves in the first place.
But back to the question. If your decision to preserve self determination
for a single group, results in the loss of that freedom for many other
groups, have you behaved moraly? And lets not wiggel out of this by
invoking the other options escape. You don't have 20/20 hinde site, for the
sake of our problem lets assume the information you have on had leave you
with only these two choices. If you preserve self determination for Abydos,
you will almost certaintly loose it for several dozen other worlds. What is
the moral choice, preserve freedom for one and loose it for many, or
temporarily violate it for one and preserve it for many?
Jette Goldie
Curt Mueller wrote in message ...
>
>An assumption on your part. You assume that there are other options.
Thats
>not always true.
There are ALWAYS *other options*.
Jette Goldie (hi Merry!)
Casey
Jette Goldie <bosslad...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
news:7qotda$f52$1...@supernews.com...
>
> Curt Mueller wrote in message ...
> >
>
> Thats
> >not always true.
>
Special Forces A-Team that was in Deasert Storm. They where assigned to
watch a major highway for Iraqi activatie, so they parachuted in at night
and dug themselves a foxhole. The next day one of the Green Berets was
standing up with his upper torso out of the foxhole so that he could look
around. Well 2 little girls spotted him while they where playing. He
reached for a silenced 9mm beretta. He then told the CO and asked him what
to do. The CO had a big choice, he could shoot the little girls and thereby
end 2 childrens lives. Or he could let them go. He decided to let them go
and the next day the A-Team was attacked for 12 hours straight by Iraqi
soldiers untill they where evacuated. In that situation there where only 2
options, kill the kids, or risk getting detected. They couldn't have taken
the kids into the foxhole, the A-Team doesn't know how long there going to
be there and they don't want to have to feed little kids while there doing
there mission. There for there are not always other options, almost never
more than 2 options will arise during war
BishopX
themselves through the Abydos Stargate and start running the planet (oh,
sorry, 'protecting' the planet) while having its native population mine the
natural resources is just... well, wrong... in fact, it smells suspiciously
like banana plantations and black slavery, to be quite honest.
At the time, the white slave owners were claiming that it was all for their
own good and that in providing their slaves with jobs picking bananas and
jobs cleaning up after them they were doing them a favour and keeping them
out of squalour, etc. Bollocks. These so-called men used the black people to
do all of the things they didn't want to do because they had the guns and
the armies and because they could.
It's like the Romans occupying Jewish lands all of those hundreds of years
ago - remember the scene from Monty Python and the Life of Brian, where the
Jews are complaining about the Romans, yet they seem to come up with a huge
list of things that the Romans had brought to them? It's like that -
regardless of the things that the occupying force would bring with them
(running water, indoor plumbing, paved streets, etc.), the pople being
occupied are still slaves. Would you want to be a slave?
If the US government wants to mine naquadah, they should draw up a treaty
with the Abydosians and send their OWN people (military people, naturally,
'cause we don't want this getting out, do we?) to go and mine it. In return
they could give the people of Abydos things they could actually USE in day
to day life - medical supplies, pots and pans, storage conatiners, clothing,
and anything else they needed, as well as agreeing to protect them from the
Goa'uld. Then nobody has to be a slave to anybody else.
I am, by the way, a caucasian guy from Great Briatin. I am not proud of MY
nation's history either - my family is decended from Scots, and the English
enslaved the Scots and treated them VERY badly in years gone past (have you
seen Braveheart?! Rob Roy?!). Salvery, in any form, is wrong, and needs to
be crushed.
And that's my two pence-worth.
--------------------------------------------------------------
BishopX
http://page.eidosnet.co.uk/~bishopx
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Do you know anything about lifting curses?"
"Oh, SURE, I know LOTS about lifting curses. THAT'S WHY I'M A DISEMBODIED
TALKING SKULL, SITTING ON A SPIKE, IN THE MIDDLE OF A SWAMP!!"
"You seem bitter."
"I'm sorry. It's been a rough day."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf-NUTS
1. they are not a native culture the only reason the culture exists is
because they were forced to be that way .
2. i can tell you i would do anything to help the race that freed my people
that would result in the maintaining of that freedom
3. comparing the abydosians to the native americans is offensive to me and
other native americans. not even remotely the same situation
4. the native americans are a native species that came here of their own
free will..... the abydosians were forced to go to abydos and are egyptians
not abydosians ......the culture exists due to the evil acts of the goa'uld
5. we never talked of forcing the abydosians into doing anything they dont
want to do.
6. there is nothing wrong with asking the abydosians for help with mining.
7. why is there a huge arguement here in this thread made mostly over
assumptions ....get over it.
Wolf-NUTS
2. not all options are good
3. if you have a choice to make then obviously there are options to choose
from
case settled arguement over move along
--
I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
Casey <caseym...@home.com> wrote in message
news:1UUz3.19077$Rn.1...@news.rdc2.occa.home.com...
>
> Jette Goldie <bosslad...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> news:7qotda$f52$1...@supernews.com...
> >
> > Curt Mueller wrote in message ...
> > >
> >
> > >An assumption on your part. You assume that there are other options.
> > Thats
> > >not always true.
> >
Wolf-NUTS
first off nobody but the ones against mining abydos said anything of using
the abydosians
that was you guys
we stated that here was plenty of naquida on the planet to mine and you
critics made many assumptions
which makes an ass out of u and umption
there is nothing wrong with mining the naquida with the consent of the
abydosians <we dont need them to do it but they could help if they wanted>
you guys made assumptions that because we wanted to mine the mineral that we
would have to use slave laber to do it ....we have 5 billion people on this
planet ....alot of whom need jobs .......i think we have our own labor.
besides everyone on earth is a slave to the dollar ....just to get a few of
them people will do things they dont want to do. so quit the bitchin. and
bringing in the black american slaves and absorbing fo the native americans
<of which i am one> is offensive and i will respond<in full rant mode> to
the messages that try to compare them to the abydosians
Meredith Lynne
<curtm...@home.com> wrote:
>Enslave and Exploit? A rather narrow interpritation. Having removed the
>slave master, it is exploitive to ask those who benifit to aid in
>maintaining their freedom?
No, it's not -- but that's not the scenario I was replying to. There
was no mention in that of asking anyone about anything -- just going
to Abydos and taking what we wanted. I would fully expect SGC to
*ask* the Abydosians to aid in maintaining their freedom, and I would
fully expect the Abydosians to agree -- but that's a far cry from just
deciding we need their resources and taking something from them
without asking, and giving back in return what *we* choose rather than
asking what they might want. The scenario you're describing is a
diplomatic negotiation between nations; the scenario I was responding
to was theft and exploitation.
>An assumption on your part. You assume that there are other options. Thats
>not always true.
You're saying sometimes there's no other way to get what you need than
to forcibly take it without even asking? I disagree.
>So under your ethics, as long as you are only killing and enslaving your own
>people, thats ok.
Uh, no. That's not what I said.
>Its only when you enslave other people that outsiders
>have the right to take action.
No. I'm saying that a duly elected president of a nation suspending
certain civil rights in that nation during a time of war is a far cry
from a secret division of the US government going into a peaceful
country that's trying to reconstruct itself and taking over the
government of that country as well as that country's resources by
force -- and that therefore, the Lincoln analogy is kind of dumb.
>Bull! Those who engaged in slavery didn't give a rat's ass about the people
>they enslaved.
On one level, that's true. But many of those who practiced slavery
either believed or claimed to believe that they were acting in the
best interests of those they enslaved -- and used the same arguments
put forward here to deprive slaves of their rights as I've seen put
forth here in defense of doing the same thing to the Abydosians.
Regardless of their actual reasons, the arguments and the outcomes are
the same.
>They cared about the cheapest way to harvest their fields,
>work in their factories, make their roads, or whatever other economic
>pursuit needed attention.
So according to your ethics, it's okay to enslave and exploit an
entire nation that has no defense against you, as long as you're doing
it for really good reasons?
Or at least what you *think* are really good reasons. I have trouble
believing the Abydosians would agree.
But then, we're the most techololgically advanced of the two races, so
I guess we know best, huh?
>But back to the question. If your decision to preserve self determination
>for a single group, results in the loss of that freedom for many other
>groups, have you behaved moraly?
There's a very good short story by Ursula K. Leguin about that very
question, called _The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas_. Omelas is a
fictional utopia, the perfection of which is maintained via the misery
of one single child. Everyone in Omelas is prosperous, safe, and
happy -- for as long as this one single child suffers. The lands
outside are dangerous and unknown -- but there are those who can't
make that bargain. They leave, unwilling to sacrifice that one child
for their own benefit.
It's entirely possible that if Abydos refused to share its resources,
the fight against the Goa'ould would suffer. It's entirely possible
that that refusal might even cost us the war, and result in the loss
of freedom and life for many, many people -- including the Abydosians.
We have a right to explain that to them in as fearsome and complete a
manner possible, bringing to bear whatever level of non-threatening
persuasion available to convince them to share what they have.
But no, we don't have the right to *take* it if they say no. You
don't get to just believe in your ethics when they're convenient for
you; you believe in them all the time, or you don't believe in them at
all.
Say what you really mean here. Do you really believe it would ever be
*right* to take the naqadah from the Abydosians without bothering to
ask them or negotiate with them, and take over their government and
relieve them of their rights to run their society as they see fit? Or
do you just believe it might be a really good idea if we want to win
the war?
Because the two things don't always go hand in hand. And it sounds a
lot to me like you're trying to wrap ethics around necessity,
something that doesn't always work and that can be the top of a very
slippery slope.
>And lets not wiggel out of this by
>invoking the other options escape.
That's not an escape; it's a fact. In the Stargate universe their is
still time to *ask* the Abydosians for help, to *ask* them for the
rights we're talking about just taking by force. There's still time
to *ask* them to participate in the fight for their own freedom and
the freedom of others. And there's every indication that they would
be willing to do so, or at the very least to negotiate; they've shown
our people great friendship and respect in the past. So I'm sorry,
but I don't buy the shorthand of just *assuming* they're going to
refuse.
>You don't have 20/20 hinde site, for the
>sake of our problem lets assume the information you have on had leave you
>with only these two choices.
But that's just silly. We have information that directly contradicts
that assumption. We have several episodes and one movie's worth of
experience that shows us the Abydosians are willing to work with us
and share with us, or at the very least with Daniel Jackson and the
rest of us by proxy. To suddenly assume they're going to refuse to
help us, and then to act on that assumption by taking what's theirs
without asking, would be stupid and wrong.
>If you preserve self determination for Abydos,
>you will almost certaintly loose it for several dozen other worlds. What is
>the moral choice, preserve freedom for one and loose it for many, or
>temporarily violate it for one and preserve it for many?
To make this hypothesis make any sense, you have to take it outside of
the Stargate SG1 concept. I understand what you're trying to make me
say, but you can't make it work in the context of the relationship
we've been shown between Abydos and Earth. So let's get outside of
that box, and get to the real question you're asking -- which seems to
be "Is it right to protect one person or society's rights when doing
so conflicts with the greater good of more people or societies?"
You're conflating the cooncept of right action with the concept of
greater good. If there's a child who, through no fault of its own,
is dangerous to you and your entire tribe or society -- is it *right*
to kill that child or deprive it of it's freedom? No. It's never
*right* to kill a child. But there may exist circumstances in which
it's *necessary* to do so -- to protect other children, or other
people who have no defenses.
The thing is, *necessary* and *right* are not synonyms, and no amount
of arguing will ever make them synonyms. Sometimes you may have to
do something *wrong* in order to achieve the greater good -- but
that doesn't make the wrong act *right*. It just makes it necessary
in one case. And it's dangerous too assume it does, because that
*is* the top of a slippery slope. Better to say that you've done
something deeply wrong that is balanced by a right outcome -- better
to just go ahead and say that the end justifies the means, isn't it?
Sometimes the end *does* justify the means. But that doesn't make the
means *ethical*. The whole reason we have that cliche is that our
society recognizes the fact that dishonorable acts are sometimes
necessary to bring about honorable ends. Inherent in that statement
is the idea that those acts may be dishonorable, yet necessary; the
quality of the act doesn't change because the outcome will be
favorable for a lot of people.
Take a look at Singularity (isn't that the one with the little girl
with the bomb in her chest?). I loved the way that episode dealt with
this very question. They had no way to remove it without killing her
and setting off the bomb, so they deprived her of her freedom
temporarily and sent her to the bottom of a missile silo (or whatever
that was), where she could detonate in a place where she'd only hurt
herself. It was the only way to preserve the safety Earth -- and yet
they all acknowledged that it was *wrong*, that what they were doing
was unfair. They were lying to her and sending her down their to die
scared and alone.
And Sam believed so deeply that it was wrong that she was going to
give her own life to stay with the girl once she was awake; she
couldn't just lie to her and leave her their alone. Sam knew it would
be *wrong* to do so. It was wrong that either of them should have to
die alone and scared -- even though by doing so they kept others safe.
What they did wasn't *right* -- it was just necessary.
--Meredith
(remove the "dot" to reply by email)
Meredith Lynne
<bosslad...@mydeja.com> wrote:
>
>Curt Mueller wrote in message ...
>>
>
>>An assumption on your part. You assume that there are other options.
>Thats
>>not always true.
>
>There are ALWAYS *other options*.
Yes! Thank you. <G>
>Jette Goldie (hi Merry!)
Hey, Jette! =) You're moonlighting!
--Merry
Casey
BishopX <yo...@bishopx.eurobell.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7qpklt$f63$1...@aub.eurobell.net...
No one ever said anything about having the people of Abydos mine it,
that would probably take forever, we'd send through our own people with
heavy equipment. We'd get more done in less time. We wouldn't start
running the planet, we'd just establish a military preasence so that we can
protect the mineral, we could ask them if they wanted to go back to Egypt
to. It isn't like the Romans, and Monty Python is a bad example. The Jew's
were mad at the Romans because they deprived them of there religous freedom,
they made them worship the emperor, and the Jews didn't want to. We
wouldn't deprive them of there religous freedom, if they even have a religon
anymore. Why don't we want this thing getting out, do you know how much
naquada would boost the economy? A super conducting material like that.
The stock market would go through the rough. Then we could tell the people
that there is an alien race that wants to take there naquada away from then,
they would immediatly demand that NATO go to war. Then we could really start
kickin ass.
Casey
Jette Goldie
Meredith Lynne wrote
>>Jette Goldie (hi Merry!)
>
>Hey, Jette! =) You're moonlighting!
>
Nope - been here a while.
Jette Goldie
BishopX
--
Angof
Wolf-NUTS <Wolf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mYZz3.9217$Jl.2...@news6.giganews.com...
> 1. there are always other options
> 2. not all options are good
> 3. if you have a choice to make then obviously there are options to choose
> from
>
> case settled arguement over move along
>
> --
> I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
> Casey <caseym...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:1UUz3.19077$Rn.1...@news.rdc2.occa.home.com...
> >
> > Jette Goldie <bosslad...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
> > news:7qotda$f52$1...@supernews.com...
> > >
> > > Curt Mueller wrote in message ...
> > > >
> > >
> > > >An assumption on your part. You assume that there are other options.
> > > Thats
> > > >not always true.
> > >
> > > There are ALWAYS *other options*.
> > >
Tom Wigginton
> What's beta site?
A place where beta software is tested. For example, Microsoft has
sent out beta versions of Windows 2000 to those businesses who want to
test it out and see if it suits their purposes.
Tom Wigginton
twi...@mindspring.com
UF '86, now in Montgomery, AL
GO GATORS!!! UF 1996 NATIONAL CHAMPS!!!
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!"
Tom Wigginton
>And pieces of exploded Goa'uld
>carcass don't make for very good television viewing for most people. :)
It doesn't? Seeing bits of blown up Goa'uld flying through the air
would be cool!
Tom Wigginton
>On 30 Aug 1999 20:03:31 GMT, madih...@aol.com (MadiHolmes) wrote:
>> you just can't Americanize them overnight.
>>
>You say that as if it would be a *good* thing! ;-)
Because it is a good thing! :-)
Tom Wigginton
affairs, but establish a trade mission that offers goods in exchange
for Naquada (sp?), and let the people of Abydos on their own decide if
they want the goods and how to mine the Naquada to exchange for it if
they want it? Kind of similar to the French in North America in the
1700s, who had much better relations with most of the natives than the
other colonial powers of the time. The French offered trade goods in
exchange for furs with the Hurons, Creeks, and other native tribes,
instead of fighting them (they did fight the enemies of the tribes
with which they traded, for example the Iroquois Confederacy,
arch-enemies of the Huron.)
Tom Wigginton
>Surely, though, you can see that the choices made in the Civil War by
>Lincoln were choices made for his own people -- people who'd given him
>the right to make certain choices for them. (Leaving aside, for the
>moment, the fact that most of the people who got to choose were white
>males -- that's definitely another question for another ng). The US
>would have absolutely no right to make those kinds of decisions for
>another sovereign nation. That's the kind of thinking that brought
>slavery to this country in the first place -- many of our ancestors
>viewed Africans as simplistic and crude, living marginal lives, unable
>to take care of themselves properly:
Except that Lincoln did make those decisions for another sovereign
nation when he ordered the invasion of the Confederate States of
America. His choices affected two nations, not just the United
States.
Tom Wigginton
>this is in reply to those who think that the abydosians are a native culture
[snip]
>4. the native americans are a native species that came here of their own
>free will..... the abydosians were forced to go to abydos and are egyptians
>not abydosians ......the culture exists due to the evil acts of the goa'uld
Native Americans a "native species"? Native, yes, but the same
species as other Humans. Otherwise, I agree completely with this
point and your other points.
MadiHolmes
>>> you just can't Americanize them overnight.
>>>
>
>
>>You say that as if it would be a *good* thing! ;-)
>
>Because it is a good thing! :-)
>
UGH!
Go wash your mouth out with soap RIGHT NOW!!!!
Could you imagine Abydos with a strip mall featuring the Gap, SEARS, and a
Mcdonald's?
yuck
sHolmes
Meredith Lynne
Wigginton) wrote:
>How about letting the people of Abydos alone as far as their internal
>affairs, but establish a trade mission that offers goods in exchange
>for Naquada (sp?), and let the people of Abydos on their own decide if
>they want the goods and how to mine the Naquada to exchange for it if
>they want it? Kind of similar to the French in North America in the
>1700s, who had much better relations with most of the natives than the
>other colonial powers of the time. The French offered trade goods in
>exchange for furs with the Hurons, Creeks, and other native tribes,
>instead of fighting them (they did fight the enemies of the tribes
>with which they traded, for example the Iroquois Confederacy,
>arch-enemies of the Huron.)
Hi, Tom. =)
That would be a totally honorable course of action, as I've said. It
was the implication that we would just go in and do whatever we wanted
without asking that bothered me. And in essence, that's what the SGC
decided *not* to do to the "Native American" culture they found in
"Spirits". (Well, technically they decided to do it, and SG1 totally
hated that command decision -- which is pretty much the point I was
trying to get across. Not so much that the US wouldn't do such a
thing, because we have ample proof that it can and does. Just that
SG1 would be very strongly against that course of action, and would
probably fight it.)
To allow the Abydosians to handle internal matters on their own (and
external, since we'd be giving them a *choice* in your scenario) is
the right thing to do. And I believe they'd be very receptive to a
trade agreement, considering their friendliness in the past. They
seem to love and trust Daniel, and I believe that if he told them the
truth about why Earth needs the naqadah and what Earth could do for
them in terms of protection and goods, they'd be totally open to
negotiation. If they were allowed to act independently and decide for
themselves what terms were amenable, I think it'd be a great alliance
for both planets.
--Meredith
(remove "dot" to reply by email.)
Meredith Lynne
<yo...@bishopx.eurobell.co.uk> wrote:
>Christ, I'm sorry I spoke.
I'm not. =)
--Meredith
Bree Baxter
will. As a species, humans have NO native habitat. We use our silly opposable
thumbs and large frontal robes to carve an un-native habitat into a native one.
Bree
UBC hack - "Research in rats causes cancer, you fool."
Tom Wigginton wrote:
> "Wolf-NUTS" <Wolf...@hotmail.com> posted:
> >this is in reply to those who think that the abydosians are a native culture
Bree Baxter
Hey, who wouldn't?
.
Given that heru'ur and his betrothed have been there it is reasonable to assume
that others come there (after all, ra was pops). Knowing that, if they started
mining na'qui'da would another goa'uld notice and enslave them or know that they
might be helping the tau'ri and punish them? It is a risk that should be
considered.
Meredith Lynne
<grin> Exactly! A totally understandable response to the guy.
What's not to love? =)
--Meredith
Wolf-NUTS
--
I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
Angof <an...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:7qrn32$gse$1...@aub.eurobell.net...
Wolf-NUTS
figure the rest out .....
--
I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
Bree Baxter <bmon...@interchange.ubc.ca> wrote in message
news:37D1A90F...@interchange.ubc.ca...
Scott Johnson
--
Scott Johnson
webm...@akghetto.com
http://www.akghetto.com
When replying via e-mail, replace the word "removethis" with "webmaster".
MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990904170040...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
Scott Johnson
Die Hard?
> Star Gate: The Final Gate
Star Trek?
> Star Gate 2: Jaffa Day
Terminator 2?
> The Daughter of Star Gate
Not sure.....
> National Star Gate's Vacation
National Lampoon
> And Finally,
>
> Star Gate 2000. <G>
???????????
--
Scott Johnson
webm...@akghetto.com
http://www.akghetto.com
When replying via e-mail, replace the word "removethis" with "webmaster".
MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990903004857...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> >
> >Stargate SG-2
> >Stargate SG-3
> >Stargate SG-4
> >etc...
>
> Star Gate: With a Vengeance
>
> Star Gate: The Final Gate
>
> Star Gate 2: Jaffa Day
>
> The Daughter of Star Gate
>
> National Star Gate's Vacation
>
> And Finally,
>
> Star Gate 2000. <G>
>
> sHolmes
>
> 100 Brownie points if you get them all <g>
MadiHolmes
>Now there's my kind of alien planet.....
::shudders at cultural implication::
sHolmes
BishopX
BishopX
It's funny how the United States keeps wanting to clone itself... almost as
if it's because it fears death and is trying to preserve itself...
Angof
Scott Johnson <remov...@akghetto.com> wrote in message
news:rt41bo...@corp.supernews.com...
Angof
*;-)
(sorry very juvenile but it was irresistable)
Meredith Lynne <boo...@trickster.org.dot> wrote in message
news:L73RN0aunmcWpm...@4ax.com...
Angof
Ha Ha Ha
MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990905030308...@ng-bj1.aol.com...
> >
> >Now there's my kind of alien planet.....
>
Jette Goldie
Angof wrote in message <7qtn2q$ip7$1...@aub.eurobell.net>...
>Hey they could all be buying stuff from Ikea within 6 months
>
Ikea - good old Swedish company <g>
Jette Goldie
Bree Baxter
think that they are the best in the world, and everyone would want to be like
them. It's a whole edge and center nation theory...
BishopX wrote:
> >>Now there's my kind of alien planet.....
>
Jette Goldie
Bree Baxter wrote in message <37D2A274...@interchange.ubc.ca>...
>I don't see it this way. The United States doesn't fear death; They
honestly
>think that they are the best in the world, and everyone would want to be
like
>them.
yeah, but some of them travel abroad and learn things <g>
Jette Goldie
Wolf-NUTS
any more no matter what culture it is......hell i say lets kill off a
billion or 2 and make this planet livable again
--
I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
BishopX <yo...@bishopx.eurobell.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7qtij5$1rga$1...@slrn.eurobell.net...
> >>Now there's my kind of alien planet.....
>
> It's funny how the United States keeps wanting to clone itself... almost
as
> if it's because it fears death and is trying to preserve itself...
>
MadiHolmes
>> > Star Gate: With a Vengeance
>> Die Hard?
>>
Yes
>
>>
>> > Star Gate: The Final Gate
>> Star Trek?
Yes
>
>> > Star Gate 2: Jaffa Day
>> Terminator 2?
Yes
>
>> > The Daughter of Star Gate
>> Not sure.....
A better one would have been "Bride of Star Gate". However, I was going for
Daughter of Dracula
>
>> > National Star Gate's Vacation
>> National Lampoon
Yes
>
>> > Star Gate 2000. <G>
>> ???????????
>>
You know, I was so tired, "I'M" not too sure myself <g>
Give me a couple days :)
sHolmes
MadiHolmes
>
>It's funny how the United States keeps wanting to clone itself... almost as
>if it's because it fears death and is trying to preserve itself...
You know, you could say the same thing of Rome about two thousand years ago.
Notice how well THAT happened. :)
By the way, I am American, I know two different languages other than English
(Latin and French), I have traveled abroad, I do not think that the world
revolves around the US, and I am only 18. Not all Americans eat at McDonald's
and buy from the Gap. Some of us do like "high culture", like good music, and
actually are not snobbish about being American either.
I am an American. I am proud of that fact, but not to the extent of looking
down on other countries. All countries have their good and bad. You can either
look at the good, look at the bad, or take both into consideration.
-Hopping off the Soapbox <g>
sHolmes
Scott Johnson
--
Scott Johnson
webm...@akghetto.com
http://www.akghetto.com
When replying via e-mail, replace the word "removethis" with "webmaster".
<JOKING!!!!!!!!>
Wolf-NUTS <Wolf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0WEA3.3880$G4.1...@news5.giganews.com...
> we do? who told you that? i think there is to many people as is dont need
> any more no matter what culture it is......hell i say lets kill off a
> billion or 2 and make this planet livable again
>
> --
> I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
> BishopX <yo...@bishopx.eurobell.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:7qtij5$1rga$1...@slrn.eurobell.net...
> > >>Now there's my kind of alien planet.....
> >
> > It's funny how the United States keeps wanting to clone itself... almost
> as
> > if it's because it fears death and is trying to preserve itself...
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > BishopX
> > http://page.eidosnet.co.uk/~bishopx
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > "Do you know anything about lifting curses?"
> > "Oh, SURE, I know LOTS about lifting curses. THAT'S WHY I'M A
DISEMBODIED
> > TALKING SKULL, SITTING ON A SPIKE, IN THE MIDDLE OF A SWAMP!!"
> > "You seem bitter."
> > "I'm sorry. It's been a rough day."
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
Scott Johnson
<One MILLION dollars to the person who gets that........>
--
Scott Johnson
webm...@akghetto.com
http://www.akghetto.com
When replying via e-mail, replace the word "removethis" with "webmaster".
MadiHolmes <madih...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990906004932...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
Patrick Lynch
Bree Baxter
isn't tops these days.
Jacen
Scott Johnson wrote in message ...
>Star Gate 2040??????????
>
><One MILLION dollars to the person who gets that........>
>Scott Johnson
As in Phantom 2040?
I prefer $20's and $50's , non-sequential of course.
How about a prequel :
Stargate : Ra, Walk With Tau'ri.
One BILLION Pesos if you get that one.
J.
--
_______/\ ____________________
0==XXXXXXX<>\\KNIGHT of the WORD\\\\\\\\\\\ >
\/
Wolf-NUTS
--
I am Homer Of Borg You will be Assimil......OOOOOHHH DONUTS
Scott Johnson <remov...@akghetto.com> wrote in message
news:rt7071...@corp.supernews.com...
> Star Gate 2040??????????
>
> <One MILLION dollars to the person who gets that........>
>
> --
> Scott Johnson
Scott Johnson
and One billion pesos isn't really worth my time........
(one billion pesos = $.05............ ;-)
--
Scott Johnson
webm...@akghetto.com
http://www.akghetto.com
When replying via e-mail, replace the word "removethis" with "webmaster".
Jacen <czah...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3VSA3.45454$Yq5.23...@news2.pompano.net...
>
> Scott Johnson wrote in message ...
> >Star Gate 2040??????????
> >
> ><One MILLION dollars to the person who gets that........>
> >--
> >Scott Johnson
>
>
Casey
Meredith Lynne <boo...@trickster.org.dot> wrote in message
news:L73RN0aunmcWpm...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 04 Sep 1999 16:21:18 -0700, Bree Baxter
> <bmon...@interchange.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
> >> They seem to love and trust Daniel...
> >
> >Hey, who wouldn't?
>
> <grin> Exactly! A totally understandable response to the guy.
>
> What's not to love? =)
>
> --Meredith
>
orders and has no knowledge of military matters.
Casey
Scott Johnson
Casey
ourselves, it's just that everyone want's to be like the greatest nation on
earth.
Patrick Lynch
Taur'e
Patrick Lynch <gpl...@home.com> wrote in message
news:9hYA3.23492$sr6....@news.rdc1.tn.home.com...
I believe that's 2001.
Elyse
>orders and has no knowledge of military matters.
Well, he's not military. He's an archeologist. He's got the smarts in areas the
military don't, and vice versa. I wouldn't expect Jack to know much at all
about ancient Egyptian cultures.
That's why I like the team - each has their own unique strengthes.
ANd yeah, I think Daniel's good looking.<G> But then so is Jack!
Elyse
JRD...@aol.comNOSPAM
List Manager-Due South Informer (all news list)
William & Elyse's DUE SOUTH Page
News~FAQ~Cast Info~Episode Guides & more!
http://home.hiwaay.net/~warydbom/duesouth.htm
*Please remove NOSPAM from addy to respond*
Taur'e
Look at how many people fled to this great country after we broke from the
British.
Casey <caseym...@home.com> wrote in message
news:9yXA3.21568$Rn.1...@news.rdc2.occa.home.com...
Casey
to continue to work on the stargate progect.
Casey
Elyse <jrd...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:19990906194242...@ng-cl1.aol.com...