Flesh And Blood: Sam's Spacesuit Nit
Tim Bruening
from the Ori Supergate. She is wearing a spacesuit. Why doesn't her
spacesuit have jet packs attached?
whodunit
Jet packs considered unnecessary?
Tim Bruening
whodunit wrote:
I had expected that since Samantha was going on a space walk, her space
suit would be equipped with jetpacks as a commonsense safety precaution.
After all, when NASA astronauts go on space walks, they have jetpacks.
Andrew Rossmann
tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us says...
> I had expected that since Samantha was going on a space walk, her space
> suit would be equipped with jetpacks as a commonsense safety precaution.
> After all, when NASA astronauts go on space walks, they have jetpacks.
Jetpacks? Not that I'm aware of. Other than some early experiments in
the 60's, there are no jetpacks. An early shuttle flight did test some
free-flying frame the astronaut was hooked up to. The pack on their back
is all the life support equipment.
--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.att.net/~andyross
Alan F
No, they don't. There was a flight pack used on several early shuttle
missions, but that was dropped.
Alan F
Tim Bruening
Andrew Rossmann wrote:
> In article <49719AA8...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>,
> tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us says...
> > I had expected that since Samantha was going on a space walk, her space
> > suit would be equipped with jetpacks as a commonsense safety precaution.
> > After all, when NASA astronauts go on space walks, they have jetpacks.
>
> Jetpacks? Not that I'm aware of. Other than some early experiments in
> the 60's, there are no jetpacks. An early shuttle flight did test some
> free-flying frame the astronaut was hooked up to. The pack on their back
> is all the life support equipment.
What do NASA astronauts do if they become disconnected from their space
shuttle or need to retrieve something that's beyond tether range?
Tim Bruening
Alan F wrote:
Why?
Tim Bruening
Andrew Rossmann wrote:
> In article <49719AA8...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>,
> tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us says...
> > I had expected that since Samantha was going on a space walk, her space
> > suit would be equipped with jetpacks as a commonsense safety precaution.
> > After all, when NASA astronauts go on space walks, they have jetpacks.
>
> Jetpacks? Not that I'm aware of. Other than some early experiments in
> the 60's, there are no jetpacks. An early shuttle flight did test some
> free-flying frame the astronaut was hooked up to. The pack on their back
> is all the life support equipment.
Why don't NASA astronauts take the commonsense precaution of having jet packs
on their space suits during space walks?
Michael Bowker
special training to use. It's also quite large and cumbersome and has a
very limited range.
Joe Pfeiffer
Joe Pfeiffer
Because it's not a commonsense precaution. It's a very heavy, complex
apparatus that introduces new failure modes and new training
requirements.
(why is it that whenever somebody refers to something as "commonsense"
I can be pretty much assured that it's a bad idea?)
David Johnston
No, they don't.
David Johnston
They die.
David Johnston
Common sense is usually stupid. That's what makes it common.
Alan F
As i recall, it was large and heavy. It almost becomes a small
maneuvering spacecraft with complex software control and jets that can
make maneuvers in 3 axes.
As for SG-1, they have very large spacecraft that can travel, not just
to nearby star systems, but to other galaxies! With weapons systems,
transporters, shields, etc. A small jet backpack should be easy pickings
for SG command.
Alan F
Jette
Say a great big "Ooops!".
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfette/
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
Derek
"Alan F" <afig...@xxverizonx.net> wrote in message
news:K7CdnbE_mKdy3e_U...@giganews.com...
and being large and heavy it reduces the payload of the mission
significantly more than a length of poly rope 'it is rocket science you
know'
DerekW
AC
"Tim Bruening" <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:4971941C...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> As this SG-1 episode begins, Samantha Carter is drifting 2,000 yards
> from the Ori Supergate. She is wearing a spacesuit. Why doesn't her
> spacesuit have jet packs attached?
>
Perhaps its the same reason soldiers are often sent to war with out all the
necessary equipment or substandard equipment.
AC
Ken from Chicago
"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
news:a0e4n4lo8na2cu4c3...@4ax.com...
Common sense typically based on common assumptions which can be countered by
specific exceptions.
That said, it is interesting that it was assumed the only jetpack a NASA
astronaut could use would be that big bulky MMU instead of something simple
as an emergency thruster attached to one's air supply. Altho the flaw there
might be the amount of air one would have use to build up or counteract
one's momentum / inertia might be so great as to make it impractical.
-- Ken from Chicago
Jack Bohn
>"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
>news:a0e4n4lo8na2cu4c3...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Common sense is usually stupid. That's what makes it common.
>
>Common sense typically based on common assumptions which can be countered by
>specific exceptions.
>
>That said, it is interesting that it was assumed the only jetpack a NASA
>astronaut could use would be that big bulky MMU instead of something simple
>as an emergency thruster attached to one's air supply. Altho the flaw there
>might be the amount of air one would have use to build up or counteract
>one's momentum / inertia might be so great as to make it impractical.
"Emergency"? What emergency would you need a thruster for if you
aren't free flying? And if you are free flying, why aren't you
doing it with a big bulky MMU? In space your feet aren't good
for anything except being bolted to the end of the remote
manipulator arm, so leave them there!
That said, if you were to tap into air supply for a jet, you
would be dependant on the pressure in the tank for the speed of
your exhaust, which probably wouldn't be all that great, which
does mean you'd have to use a lot of gas (probably more than is
carried) to give your own mass any useful velocity.
I don't want to call it "common sense," so I'll say "physical
sense." We don't have a good physical sense of Newton's laws,
our common experience is distorted by making deposits and
withdrawals to the Great Momentum Bank which is the Earth.
--
-Jack
Mark Nobles
Besides, what kind of emergency would an astronaut need a thruster to
deal with? If someone came loose and started drifting away, the shuttle
would just fly over and pick him up. Having a thruster introduces far
more failure modes than it solves. And it turns out that a tether cable
also introduces more problems than it solves, so they are not used on
shuttle space walks either. I think they do use tie-downs, similar to
the belts linemen use to climb telephone poles, but that's it.
Andrew Rossmann
tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us says...
> What do NASA astronauts do if they become disconnected from their space
> shuttle or need to retrieve something that's beyond tether range?
If equipment is lost, it's lost. That happened with a toolbox on the
last mission.
As for an astronaut: they train and take extreme safety measures to
remain attached to something. On the shuttle, if an astronaut floated
free, they could maneuver and try to catch them. On the space station,
they would probably be lost forever.
As mentioned by others, the MMU is expensive and bulky. Even a simple
system that could be built-in would be rather bulky and take up room
needed for life support, or just make walking around more difficult.
NASA has been trying to make suits lighter and more flexible, not
heavier and stiffer.
Using thrusters in space is not easy. Some of the earliest spacewalks
had the astronauts holding little thrusters. The results were not
pretty.
Pete B
David Johnston
Common sense is anything you think without actually having bothered to
work out the whys and wherefores.
>
>That said, it is interesting that it was assumed the only jetpack a NASA
>astronaut could use would be that big bulky MMU instead of something simple
>as an emergency thruster attached to one's air supply.
Your air supply would be far better employed giving you the time to
wait for your ship to rescue you.
Tim Bruening
Michael Bowker wrote:
Wouldn't all members of SG-1 have received the necessary training as a matter of
course? After all, they have all gone on several trips on space ships in the
course of the series, including Earth's marvelous inter-galactic ships! I would
certainly have expected Samantha (an Air Force officer as well as a Star Gate
explorer) to know how to use an MMU!
IIRC, at least one SG-1 member (Teal'c) has been out on a space walk previous to
"Flesh and Blood".
An MMU would at least have gotten Sam back to the Super gate so that she could
continue working on it!
Tim Bruening
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
Its commonsense to have a method of getting back to your space ship if you get
disconnected!
Surely NASA would want to avoid the embarrassment of losing an astronaut just
because he had no way to get back to his space shuttle!
Tim Bruening
David Johnston wrote:
I had assumed that NASA would provide its astronauts with a way to get back to
their shuttles if their ropes break! Have I overestimated their IQs?
Tim Bruening
AC wrote:
And what reason is that?
Tim Bruening
Ken from Chicago wrote:
I'm only asking to propell a single female astronaut 2,000 yards back to the
Super Gate!
Tim Bruening
Jack Bohn wrote:
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>
> >"David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote in message
> >news:a0e4n4lo8na2cu4c3...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> Common sense is usually stupid. That's what makes it common.
> >
> >Common sense typically based on common assumptions which can be countered by
> >specific exceptions.
> >
> >That said, it is interesting that it was assumed the only jetpack a NASA
> >astronaut could use would be that big bulky MMU instead of something simple
> >as an emergency thruster attached to one's air supply. Altho the flaw there
> >might be the amount of air one would have use to build up or counteract
> >one's momentum / inertia might be so great as to make it impractical.
>
> "Emergency"? What emergency would you need a thruster for if you
> aren't free flying? And if you are free flying, why aren't you
> doing it with a big bulky MMU? In space your feet aren't good
> for anything except being bolted to the end of the remote
> manipulator arm, so leave them there!
Emergency! The rope attaching you to the space shuttle has broken! How do you
save yourself?
David Johnston
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
If the situation came up what they would try to do is using the
shuttle's manuevering jets to get the astronaut back into grabbing
range. But there's no reason why the rope would break. Nothing they
do would put significant stress on it.
David Johnston
I reach out and grab the hand hold.
AC
Oooo, what do you think? Im sure you are smart enough to figure it out.
AC
Ken from Chicago
And if it's out of reach and you're floating away?
You need to toss away something to counteract your momentum, even if it's
some emergency release of an air tube to temporarily use as a jet. Again, it
depends on the math of how much (air) mass would need to be eject at what
velocity to counteract the momentum of your mass moving x feet per second.
Maybe you can toss away a hammer or screwdriver or pack of tools.
Common sense says to toss away those items behind you to counteract your
backward movement away from the space station, but the specifics of the
physics involved might say that's inadequate and that you'd be better off
throwing the tools forward in the hopes of signalling a teammate inside that
you're floating away while trying to repair the station's radio antenna.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the comic
book newsgroups.
-- Ken from Chicago
David Johnston
Then you are too stupid to live.
J.J. O'Shea
(in article <Us2dnSdbCsLe_enU...@giganews.com>):
You die.
>
> You need to toss away something to counteract your momentum, even if it's
> some emergency release of an air tube to temporarily use as a jet. Again, it
> depends on the math of how much (air) mass would need to be eject at what
> velocity to counteract the momentum of your mass moving x feet per second.
> Maybe you can toss away a hammer or screwdriver or pack of tools.
>
> Common sense says to toss away those items behind you to counteract your
> backward movement away from the space station, but the specifics of the
> physics involved might say that's inadequate and that you'd be better off
> throwing the tools forward in the hopes of signalling a teammate inside that
> you're floating away while trying to repair the station's radio antenna.
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
>
>
--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.
J.J. O'Shea
(in article <4973F5B8...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>):
You send out a radio call and wait for someone to come get you. If they
arrive before you run out of oxygen, you live. If they arrive after you run
out of oxygen, you die.
Derek Lyons
>Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
>picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the comic
>book newsgroups.
Given that precisely one of them (before I came on the scene) knew
anything about NASA space walk equipment or procedures...
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Derek Lyons
>
>
>Andrew Rossmann wrote:
>
>> In article <49719AA8...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>,
>> tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us says...
>> > I had expected that since Samantha was going on a space walk, her space
>> > suit would be equipped with jetpacks as a commonsense safety precaution.
>> > After all, when NASA astronauts go on space walks, they have jetpacks.
>>
>> Jetpacks? Not that I'm aware of. Other than some early experiments in
>> the 60's, there are no jetpacks. An early shuttle flight did test some
>> free-flying frame the astronaut was hooked up to. The pack on their back
>> is all the life support equipment.
>
>Why don't NASA astronauts take the commonsense precaution of having jet packs
>on their space suits during space walks?
They do, it's called SAFER, and it's a backup/safety measure in the
event of a tether malfunction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Aid_for_EVA_Rescue
David DeLaney
>> the Super Gate!
>
>Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
>picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the comic
>book newsgroups.
Nitpick: There's also philatelists. And anime fans. And fantasy-baseball-
league aficionados.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Jette
Except maybe accidentally fire off the jets of a MMU at the wrong time ;-)
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolfette/
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
Tim Bruening
Derek Lyons wrote:
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Andrew Rossmann wrote:
> >
> >> In article <49719AA8...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>,
> >> tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us says...
> >> > I had expected that since Samantha was going on a space walk, her space
> >> > suit would be equipped with jetpacks as a commonsense safety precaution.
> >> > After all, when NASA astronauts go on space walks, they have jetpacks.
> >>
> >> Jetpacks? Not that I'm aware of. Other than some early experiments in
> >> the 60's, there are no jetpacks. An early shuttle flight did test some
> >> free-flying frame the astronaut was hooked up to. The pack on their back
> >> is all the life support equipment.
> >
> >Why don't NASA astronauts take the commonsense precaution of having jet packs
> >on their space suits during space walks?
>
> They do, it's called SAFER, and it's a backup/safety measure in the
> event of a tether malfunction.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Aid_for_EVA_Rescue
So we can ask why Sam didn't have this SAFER device!
Mark Nobles
Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
What'll happen when you throw your tool is that you'll be throwing from
some part of you that is not your center of gravity, so all you'll be
doing is spinning yourself up. Then you'll not only be drifting
helplessly away from the space station, but you'll be vomiting in your
helmet as you do it. At least you won't die from running out of air -
you'll probably drown.
Tim Bruening
David DeLaney wrote:
> Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >"Tim Bruening" <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> >> I'm only asking to propell a single female astronaut 2,000 yards back to
> >> the Super Gate!
> >
> >Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
> >picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the comic
> >book newsgroups.
>
> Nitpick: There's also philatelists. And anime fans. And fantasy-baseball-
> league aficionados.
I doubt the above would be interested in spacesuit jetpacks.
David Johnston
And like most common sense, it is based in ignorance.
whodunit
whodunit
attached in case of emergency, just like Wall-E! :-)
(How expensive could that be?!)
whodunit
> Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>>> I'm only asking to propell a single female astronaut 2,000 yards back to
>>> the Super Gate!
>> Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
>> picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the comic
>> book newsgroups.
>
> Nitpick: There's also philatelists. And anime fans. And fantasy-baseball-
> league aficionados.
>
> Dave
Not to mention the Doctor Who groups. Some of those guys know how many
stitches were knitted in the 4th Doctor's scarf! ;-)
Ken from Chicago
"whodunit" <whod...@whodunit.com> wrote in message
news:cp7dl.18208$Ws1....@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com...
Um, Doctor Who fans are sf fans.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Derek Lyons" <fair...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4978d8ad....@news.supernews.com...
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
>>picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the comic
>>book newsgroups.
>
> Given that precisely one of them (before I came on the scene) knew
> anything about NASA space walk equipment or procedures...
Dude, this is the internet. When has lack of knowledge precluded debate?
> D.
> --
> Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
>
> http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
>
> -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
> Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
-- Ken from Chicago
AC
Thats nothing. The Prisoner fans are complete nutters. A class of their own,
god bless 'em.
AC
William December Starr
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
> "David Johnston" <da...@block.net> wrote
>> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>>> Emergency! The rope attaching you to the space shuttle has
>>> broken! How do you save yourself?
>>
>> I reach out and grab the hand hold.
>
> And if it's out of reach and you're floating away?
You use your radio to tell the guys on the shuttle about your
problem, and they come and get you.
-- wds
Ken from Chicago
"William December Starr" <wds...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:gl3h45$2ri$1...@panix2.panix.com...
And you snipped the part of the message why that wouldn't work.
-- Ken from Chicago
William December Starr
"Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
>>>> I reach out and grab the hand hold.
>>>
>>> And if it's out of reach and you're floating away?
>>
>> You use your radio to tell the guys on the shuttle about your
>> problem, and they come and get you.
>
> And you snipped the part of the message why that wouldn't work.
You mean:
[...]you'd be better off throwing the tools forward in the hopes of
signalling a teammate inside that you're floating away while trying
to repair the station's radio antenna.
? The idea that there'd be _one_ radio antenna and that the crew
would be under enforced radio silence until it was repaired -- to the
point that the crewman couldn't even communicate with *each other* --
simply never occurred to me. It's too absurd.
-- wds
whodunit
Dillon Pyron
>
>
>Andrew Rossmann wrote:
>
>> In article <49719AA8...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>,
>> tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us says...
>> > I had expected that since Samantha was going on a space walk, her space
>> > suit would be equipped with jetpacks as a commonsense safety precaution.
>> > After all, when NASA astronauts go on space walks, they have jetpacks.
>>
>> Jetpacks? Not that I'm aware of. Other than some early experiments in
>> the 60's, there are no jetpacks. An early shuttle flight did test some
>> free-flying frame the astronaut was hooked up to. The pack on their back
>> is all the life support equipment.
>
>What do NASA astronauts do if they become disconnected from their space
>shuttle or need to retrieve something that's beyond tether range?
The astronauts are very well tethered. And so are ALMOST all the
things they take out with them. Except, apparently, a $3000 wrench.
Rocket packs were tested in the Gemini period, and were tested in the
mid 90s in the STS program in space, but not used.
--
- dillon I am not invalid
Men are like a carpet. Lay them well and you can
walk on them for years.
no_one
the appropriate vector to 1) send you back to where you came and 2) keep you
from spinning into a simple spin? Your arm is not going to be able to
direct the mass at your center of gravity and so you will just spin and
continue on your previous path.
Derek Lyons
>
>"Derek Lyons" <fair...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:4978d8ad....@news.supernews.com...
>> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
>>>picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the comic
>>>book newsgroups.
>>
>> Given that precisely one of them (before I came on the scene) knew
>> anything about NASA space walk equipment or procedures...
>
>Dude, this is the internet. When has lack of knowledge precluded debate?
You cited them as being nitpickish and detail oriented, and they have
displayed themselves as being anything but.
Ken from Chicago
And if the malfunctioning radio antenna was BROADCASTING a signal that was
jamming radio communications ... ?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Right, time travel, space travel, aliens and robots are NOT "true" scifi.
Okay then.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Derek Lyons" <fair...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:4978d8ad....@news.supernews.com...
>>> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dude, you posted this ONLINE, to the USENET, to SF FANS. You could have
>>>>picked more nitpickish detail-oriented people only by posting to the
>>>>comic
>>>>book newsgroups.
>>>
>>> Given that precisely one of them (before I came on the scene) knew
>>> anything about NASA space walk equipment or procedures...
>>
>>Dude, this is the internet. When has lack of knowledge precluded debate?
>
> You cited them as being nitpickish and detail oriented, and they have
> displayed themselves as being anything but.
People don't need to have *facts* to have details or to pick nits.
> D.
> --
> Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
>
> http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
>
> -Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
> Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
-- Ken from Chicago
J.J. O'Shea
(in article <xbadndrOJ-u1OujU...@giganews.com>):
use a different frequency. Or is this radio broadcasting across all available
bands? 'cause if it is, then we go back to my first comment: you die.
The Doctor
I am not taking this flame bait.
--
Member - Liberal International
This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
Birthdate: 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
PV
>I always thought DW was fantasy, not true scifi (kind of like Skiffy!) ;-)
Hardly - it's no more fantasy than Star Trek or Star Wars is. And it's a
dumb distinction to make anyway. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
Derek Lyons
>And if the malfunctioning radio antenna was BROADCASTING a signal that was
>jamming radio communications ... ?
Then they turn off the transmitter. Duh.
Jette
Only in that DW gets counted as SF ....... but I know plenty of DW
fans who do not watch or read ANY other SF. Or Fantasy. And who do
not consider themselves to be SF fans.
Scott Lurndal
Brings to mind the second Die Hard, where taking out the main airport
antenna somehow broke all the cockpit radios in all the aircraft
on the ground.
scott
William December Starr
"no_one" <no_...@verizon.net> said:
> do any of you understand that you would not be able to fling a mass
> away at the appropriate vector to 1) send you back to where you came
> and 2) keep you from spinning into a simple spin? Your arm is not
> going to be able to direct the mass at your center of gravity and so
> you will just spin and continue on your previous path.
What about using a hip-thrust rather than a throw to propel the mass?
(Assuming a sufficiently flexible spacesuit, of course.)
It's not a maneuver that I'd expect anyone to get right the first time,
but with some practice it might be do-able.
-- wds
William December Starr
sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) said:
> Brings to mind the second Die Hard, where taking out the main
> airport antenna somehow broke all the cockpit radios in all the
> aircraft on the ground.
Ow ow ow ow ow. Second-worst second-movie quality-dropoff in
action-movie franchise history, at least if you confine "history" to
the early "Lethal Weapon" and "Die Hard" days. Loved the Pacific
Bell pay phone at Washington Dulles International Airport.
-- wds
Anim8rFSK
So you want the pelvic thrust? It'll drive you insane.
--
Bad Reboot's 'Crap Trek' 2009: "No Shat, No Show"
Rated "least anticipated film of 2009" by ETOnline
Mark Nobles
> Except maybe accidentally fire off the jets of a MMU at the wrong time ;-)
or one of its propellant tanks has a short that causes an explosion.
David DeLaney
"It's just a JUMP ... to the left / and then a step to the ri-i-i-ight..."
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Tim Bruening
William December Starr wrote:
If I were in charge, I would certainly insist that space shuttles have
backup radio antennas!
Tim Bruening
"J.J. O'Shea" wrote:
How flexible are the Space Shuttle crews' radios?
Ken from Chicago
"David DeLaney" <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrngndff...@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>"no_one" <no_...@verizon.net> said:
>>> do any of you understand that you would not be able to fling a mass
>>> away at the appropriate vector to 1) send you back to where you came
>>> and 2) keep you from spinning into a simple spin? Your arm is not
>>> going to be able to direct the mass at your center of gravity and so
>>> you will just spin and continue on your previous path.
>>
>>What about using a hip-thrust rather than a throw to propel the mass?
>>(Assuming a sufficiently flexible spacesuit, of course.)
>>
>>It's not a maneuver that I'd expect anyone to get right the first time,
>>but with some practice it might be do-able.
>
> "It's just a JUMP ... to the left / and then a step to the ri-i-i-ight..."
NO! That way leads to a tear in the space-time continuum!
> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the
> flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone
> to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
> VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
> CAPS! --K.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
Again, this is distracting from the main point I was making. The common
sense idea would be to use a jet to reverse your momentum, however that is
counteracted by the details of the situation (which I suggested by there may
not be sufficient mass in the air to counteract one's momentum)--as amply
detailed by you and others that the specifics undermine using a oxygen tank
as a jet, from it causing one to spin about one's center of gravity to there
being easier, simpler, more reliable alternatives.
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. And this all drifts away (pun accidental but intended) from the
specifics of the OP reference to Major Samantha Carter's EVA around STARGATE
SG-1's alien "supergate". It would have made sense for her to have some kind
of MMU in addition to the magnetic locks (perhaps even some kind of vacuum
grip like was used by the skyscraper thief in SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE). She was
on an alien device. How would she even guarantee the magnetic lock would
work?
David DeLaney
>>>What about using a hip-thrust rather than a throw to propel the mass?
>>>(Assuming a sufficiently flexible spacesuit, of course.)
>>>
>>>It's not a maneuver that I'd expect anyone to get right the first time,
>>>but with some practice it might be do-able.
>>
>> "It's just a JUMP ... to the left / and then a step to the ri-i-i-ight..."
>
>NO! That way leads to a tear in the space-time continuum!
...Eddies'?
Dave "wait, wrong author" DeLaney
J.J. O'Shea
(in article <4976C169...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>):
IIRC (I had a lot of specs on the Shuttle a while back, thanks to a raid back
in 1979 on NASA's site in Washington, DC, just across the road from the Air
and Space Museum of the Smithsonian; Security kicked me out, but let me keep
the loot) the Shuttle has three separate comms systems, which cover the
standard American military spectrum plus the FAA-mandated civilian spectrum,
plus special requirements for use in orbit. (Some freqs get blocked by the
ionosphere, and are of limited use for talking to the ground from orbit.)
This site
<http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/Frequencies/handy-info/shuttle.txt>
indicates that at least three specific frequencies were in use as of 1993 by
shuttles in orbit, and implies that several others could be monitored by
shuttles. These boys
<http://www.monitoringtimes.com/html/Monitoring%20NASA%20and%20Space%20Communi
cations.pdf> seem to have more info.
In any case, it ain't rocket surgery (thanks be to Anim8rFSK for that phrase)
to just flip to a different channel... Do you _really_ think that NASA radios
are _that_ much inferior to CB radios?
Mark Nobles
> (perhaps even some kind of vacuum
> grip like was used by the skyscraper thief in SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE). She was
> on an alien device. How would she even guarantee the magnetic lock would
> work?
Well, she could be completely certain that a vacuum-grip device would
be useless in the vacuum of space.
A tool that might be helpful is a drill/screwdriver that would allow
her to attach an anchor, but given that the material of the gates can
withstand a nuclear blast that is far from certain to be useful.
Dillon Pyron
>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>"no_one" <no_...@verizon.net> said:
>>> do any of you understand that you would not be able to fling a mass
>>> away at the appropriate vector to 1) send you back to where you came
>>> and 2) keep you from spinning into a simple spin? Your arm is not
>>> going to be able to direct the mass at your center of gravity and so
>>> you will just spin and continue on your previous path.
>>
>>What about using a hip-thrust rather than a throw to propel the mass?
>>(Assuming a sufficiently flexible spacesuit, of course.)
>>
>>It's not a maneuver that I'd expect anyone to get right the first time,
>>but with some practice it might be do-able.
>
>"It's just a JUMP ... to the left / and then a step to the ri-i-i-ight..."
>
>Dave
"Do the pelvic thrust. Pull your kness in tieeee iiight"
Ryan P
> I think all astronauts going on EVAs should have a fire extinguisher
> attached in case of emergency, just like Wall-E! :-)
>
> (How expensive could that be?!)
I was debating on whether to suggest that myself... lol
Knowing government run programs? Probably $21,425 per extinguisher.
Dimensional Traveler
I'm suddenly wondering if anyone has taken a commercially available fire
extinguisher, subjected it to an extended multiple G's acceleration, placed
it in a vacuum and tested if it still works.
--
"What Kind of perv rememembers the scenes where she's clothed???" -
Anim8rFSK, 8/23/08
Ryan P
> I'm suddenly wondering if anyone has taken a commercially available fire
> extinguisher, subjected it to an extended multiple G's acceleration, placed
> it in a vacuum and tested if it still works.
I have no doubt that it would function in a vacuum, because the
internal contents are already at a pressure that exceeds our normal
atmospheric pressure.
I would think the problem would come in with how it would react to the
extreme temperature changes of -256 degrees (f) to 392 degrees (f).
That the temperature range NASA specifies as the operating environment
for space craft components.
Certain death aside, I'll bet it would be a fun experiment!
Dimensional Traveler
There's also the (probably slight) matter of adding the equivalent of
another 14 PSI to the internal pressure.
But I was thinking more in terms of the rubber hoses losing flexibility in
vacuum, would the trigger/pressure control mechanisms work, etc.
Mark Nobles
> Ryan P wrote:
> > On 1/19/2009 4:44 PM, whodunit wrote:
> >
> >> I think all astronauts going on EVAs should have a fire extinguisher
> >> attached in case of emergency, just like Wall-E! :-)
> >>
> >> (How expensive could that be?!)
> >
> > I was debating on whether to suggest that myself... lol
> >
> > Knowing government run programs? Probably $21,425 per extinguisher.
>
> I'm suddenly wondering if anyone has taken a commercially available fire
> extinguisher, subjected it to an extended multiple G's acceleration, placed
> it in a vacuum and tested if it still works.
They already carry fire extinguishers in the cockpit that use Halon.
You don't really need a fire extinguisher in a vacuum, but I am pretty
sure NASA tested them at least for safety in a vacuum.
Ed White tested a similar, O2-powered, device on Gemini 4, and found it
controllable. But it was never flown again, so there must be some issue
with it besides controllability.
Jack Bohn
>P.S. And this all drifts away (pun accidental but intended) from the
>specifics of the OP reference to Major Samantha Carter's EVA around STARGATE
>SG-1's alien "supergate". It would have made sense for her to have some kind
>of MMU in addition to the magnetic locks
There were magnetics involved? Then the solution becomes even
simpler: Dr. Robert L. Forward described a device he called an
izaakwalton (after an early writer on fishing); a spring-launched
magnet trailing a line from a reel. He suggested it not only for
emergency use, but in generally saving propellant during extended
EVAs. One should be carried anywhere where stomping about in
magnetic boots is acceptable (which excludes current space
structures).
This also explains why one wasn't available for the astronauts on
STARGATE; they didn't want to pay for the author's rights.
--
-Jack
Ken from Chicago
"Jack Bohn" <jack...@bright.net> wrote in message
news:5j0mn4h949gckhgs2...@4ax.com...
Of course not. The SGC budget was tight after having to rebuild a couple
starships to attack the Ori.
-- Ken from Chicago
William December Starr
Jack Bohn <jack...@bright.net> said:
> Dr. Robert L. Forward described a device he called an izaakwalton
> (after an early writer on fishing); a spring-launched magnet
> trailing a line from a reel. He suggested it not only for
> emergency use, but in generally saving propellant during extended
> EVAs. One should be carried anywhere where stomping about in
> magnetic boots is acceptable (which excludes current space
> structures).
To hell with magnets -- I vote for harpoons as the future of EVAs.
-- wds
Derek Lyons
>Ed White tested a similar, O2-powered, device on Gemini 4, and found it
>controllable. But it was never flown again, so there must be some issue
>with it besides controllability.
Ed White found it controllable because he was just casually floating
about. The controllability problems surfaced when they started trying
to do anything more than casually float about.
White's gun was never reflown because it was a one-off, other guns
were flown on subsequent flights and/or tested in the Vomit Comet.
PV
>I'm suddenly wondering if anyone has taken a commercially available fire
>extinguisher, subjected it to an extended multiple G's acceleration, placed
>it in a vacuum and tested if it still works.
Doubtful! Some valves that work fine in sea-level atmosphere fail
dramatically at just slightly lower pressure (one of the many reasons you
don't carry sealed bottles or aerosol cans on planes), and the result would
not be pretty if the experiment failed. And then you have the issue of the
tiny parts vacuum-welding themselves together and not working at all if
they DO hold pressure. *
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
TBerk
>
> Emergency! The rope attaching you to the space shuttle has broken! How do you
> save yourself?
You get on the horn and squawk "EMERGENCY!, Man Over Board!"
They either come get you or they don't.
You might try and grab on the next few orbits around. <har>
TBerk
ooh, ooh!, you make a loop of the end of your broken tether and lasso
the Shuttle! Yeah!
Jesper Lauridsen
> do any of you understand that you would not be able to fling a mass away at
> the appropriate vector to 1) send you back to where you came and 2) keep you
> from spinning into a simple spin?
Yes, I believe that very fact have been mentioned a few times in
this thread.
Dillon Pyron
Dillon Pyron
>On 1/23/2009 2:10 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
I'll tape you testing it.
Dillon Pyron
>Ken from Chicago wrote:
>
>>P.S. And this all drifts away (pun accidental but intended) from the
>>specifics of the OP reference to Major Samantha Carter's EVA around STARGATE
>>SG-1's alien "supergate". It would have made sense for her to have some kind
>>of MMU in addition to the magnetic locks
>
>There were magnetics involved? Then the solution becomes even
>simpler: Dr. Robert L. Forward described a device he called an
>izaakwalton (after an early writer on fishing); a spring-launched
>magnet trailing a line from a reel. He suggested it not only for
>emergency use, but in generally saving propellant during extended
>EVAs. One should be carried anywhere where stomping about in
>magnetic boots is acceptable (which excludes current space
>structures).
Two words: Newton (okay, one word, use it twice).
Whatever you kick forward will kick you back with the same energy. So,
it you use 100 newtons (there he is, again) to shoot the magnet at
your target, you'll have 100 newtons directed against you. If you've
ever used a firearm before you may have become aware of this concept.
Some about "equal and opposite".
>
>This also explains why one wasn't available for the astronauts on
>STARGATE; they didn't want to pay for the author's rights.
--
- dillon I am not invalid
Ken from Chicago
"TBerk" <bayar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:22c7dc7b-d070-4291...@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 18, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> Emergency! The rope attaching you to the space shuttle has broken! How do
> you
> save yourself?
~
~You get on the horn and squawk "EMERGENCY!, Man Over Board!"
~
~They either come get you or they don't.
~
~You might try and grab on the next few orbits around. <har>
~
~
~TBerk
~ooh, ooh!, you make a loop of the end of your broken tether and lasso
~the Shuttle! Yeah!
Now I'm imaging while the astronauts are going out to rescue the orbiting
one broadcasting "The Second Time Around" by Shalamar.
-- Ken from Chicago
Dillon Pyron
It's really simple
"Okay, repeat after me. The Lord is my Shepard, I shall not want..."
Tim Bruening
Mark Nobles wrote:
How about super glue with which to attach the anchor?
Tim Bruening
Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> Ryan P wrote:
> > On 1/19/2009 4:44 PM, whodunit wrote:
> >
> >> I think all astronauts going on EVAs should have a fire extinguisher
> >> attached in case of emergency, just like Wall-E! :-)
> >>
> >> (How expensive could that be?!)
> >
> > I was debating on whether to suggest that myself... lol
> >
> > Knowing government run programs? Probably $21,425 per extinguisher.
>
> I'm suddenly wondering if anyone has taken a commercially available fire
> extinguisher, subjected it to an extended multiple G's acceleration, placed
> it in a vacuum and tested if it still works.
How do I contact NASA to suggest the above experiment?