Tuvix R.I.P. (Spoilers)
Joe Ramirez
SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS (although I don't know why this should be a
problem; isn't *Voyager* shown at the same time everywhere, at least
in the U.S.?)
Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
Janeway seemed to give undue weight to her own wishes, and those of
certain members of the crew, to have Tuvok and Neelix back in their
old forms. Well, fine, if they agree to it -- but they didn't! Tuvok
and Neelix weren't killed, captured or imprisoned; they were simply
merged into a single person. Bizarre, yes, but their memories,
abilities, personality traits, and presumably their wills remained
intact, albeit in blended form. This was not a case where poor old
Data was possessed by some malign life force that wanted to occupy his
body, and thus deserved to be evicted, even at the cost of its demise.
In this case Tuvok and Neelix, through Tuvix, appeared to choose
freely to remain together. (Maybe they/he got used to the intimacy
and enhanced vitality. Ask Dax how she would like to be separated
into her components!) At any rate, the opinion of Tuvix on the matter
was certainly entitled to trump the views of Janeway, Kes, et al.,
regardless of their fears that the original Tuvok and Neelix had
somehow gotten lost inside Tuvix. If *both* of these men truly
yearned to be separated, wouldn't that desire have manifested itself
throught Tuvix?
I wonder whether Tuvok and Neelix will retain memories of their life
as Tuvix, and perhaps some resentment or bitterness toward Janeway.
She has it coming.
Joe Ramirez
Joe
jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
>... was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
>captain perform.
Good post, Joe, I agree completely. They blew it big time, unless her
behaviour is going to be explained next episode (which wouldn't excuse
the crew, who should have mutinied at her barbarous orders).
Joe
Al Ruffinelli
> Joe
me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
------------------------------------------------------------
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net>
http://www.netgate.net/~alvaro
ftp://ng.netgate.net/u/alvaro
------------------------------------------------------------
Scott P Evans
: Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
: Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
: captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
: member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
: for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
: involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
: tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
: to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
: integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
: with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Scott P. Evans "If at first you DO succeed,
North Carolina State University try not to look so astonished"
Dept. of Microbiology
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tom Thatcher
>SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS (although I don't know why this should be a
>problem; isn't *Voyager* shown at the same time everywhere, at least
>in the U.S.?)
No. Anywhere that a UPN station doesn't reach (like Rochester, NY)
Voyager is syndicated. Here it runs at 6 PM Saturday, in between
DS9 and Home Improvement.
--
Tom Thatcher | You can give a PC to a Homo habilis,
University of Rochester Cancer Center | and he'll use it, but he'll use it
tt...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu | to crack nuts.
Robert Hubby
Al Ruffinelli (alv...@ng.netgate.net) wrote:
: On Tue, 07 May 1996 06:55:22 GMT, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca wrote:
: > jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
: > >... was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
: > >captain perform.
: > Good post, Joe, I agree completely. They blew it big time, unless her
: > behaviour is going to be explained next episode (which wouldn't excuse
: > the crew, who should have mutinied at her barbarous orders).
: me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
: part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
: we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
: decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
I may as well voice in as a "Me 4"...unfortunately, my VCR cut out just as
Janeway triggered the Sep-Sequence, so I didn't see what happened. I
probably only missed about 30 seconds of the episode, but it was the
resolution, Damnit! Anyone know what happened then, and can let me know?
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
"There's Klingons on the starboard bow (starboard bow, starboard bow)
There's Klingons on the starboard bow starboard bow, Jim!"
- Uhura's "voice" from "Star Trekking"
Joe
rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) wrote:
>I may as well voice in as a "Me 4"...unfortunately, my VCR cut out just as
>Janeway triggered the Sep-Sequence, so I didn't see what happened. I
>probably only missed about 30 seconds of the episode, but it was the
>resolution, Damnit! Anyone know what happened then, and can let me know?
Sure ... Janeway murders innocent bystander in cold blood, loses all
respect, the end, everyone wants to kill the writers.
Joe
Joe
spev...@unity.ncsu.edu (Scott P Evans) wrote:
>I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
>Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
>stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
>think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
Or they could have *copied* Neelix and Tuvok back out, and left Tuvix
alive (they could have easily written him onto an alien planet or
something if they didn't want him to stay on the show).
Anything would have been better than turning the Captain (and the
crew, since they did not object) into a cold-blooded murderer.
Joe
Brad J Cadle
Spoiler Space <DS9 and Voyager>
The comments regarding Janeway's "execution" of Tuvix
are extremely interesting when placed in light of the
DS9 episode this week. Several people mentioned how they are
losing faith in the Federation and Janeway in particular.
One person mentioned that the federation seems to shy away from
consequences of anything unusual that happens. It's as if the
federation wants to maintain a status quo and have control of
everything. This notion is not too disimiliar to the
Traitor Commander Eddington's statements at the end of teh DS9
episode. He claimed that all the federation was interested in
was assimulation like the borg, and they put down those who turn away
from it. Perhaps, Eddington has some truth in his statements.
Although, the federation uses the prime directive to outside cultures,
those who are within the federation lose there freedom if there
ideas of normality or survival are different from the official
federation doctrine. The conflict between freedom and Anarchy
would make for an interesting topic for DS9 or Voyager.
-BRad
Todd Horowitz
In article <4mn5ee$6...@ss.netgate.net>,
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
>part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
On the contrary; the ending is what salvages the episode. An
actual moral dillemma with a no-win resolution! No techno-fixes to make
things easier, no noble speeches, just two compelling moral arguments, one
of which HAS to win. Janeway undoubtably feels like shit, but she would
either way, which is the beauty of the episode.
>
>we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
>decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
Janeway's argument that she has to speak for Tuvok and Neelix, who
"have no voice" tells you where she's coming from. As for the rest of
the crew, I think Kes stands in for them. If she could not speak on Neelock's
behalf, who could?
The reason most of the crew stood by is because they did not want to
have to make this choiice, and they were relieved that Janeway was there to
make it for them.
Todd
Louis Sivo
Joe Ramirez (jra...@ibm.net) wrote:
: SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS (although I don't know why this should be a
: problem; isn't *Voyager* shown at the same time everywhere, at least
: in the U.S.?)
: Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
Murder or saving her two lost crew members? I felt Janeway did the
right thing.
: Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
: captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
: member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
: for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
: involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
: tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
: to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
: integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
: with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
What about the uniqueness of Tuvok and Neelix? They didn't ask to be
combined.
In your examples above "member of a unisex species" and "Data" in both cases
they as individuals were being harmed. No one had "lost" their life or
personality by their existence.
I don't think Thomas Riker fits in here. His creation did not "remove/
absorb/kill/whatever" any other individual.
: Janeway seemed to give undue weight to her own wishes, and those of
: certain members of the crew, to have Tuvok and Neelix back in their
: old forms. Well, fine, if they agree to it -- but they didn't! Tuvok
I think she was thinking of Tuvok and Neelix. They had no choice in this
merging.
: and Neelix weren't killed, captured or imprisoned; they were simply
: merged into a single person. Bizarre, yes, but their memories,
"Simply merged...." Yikes, I for one do not wish to be merged with anyone.
I want to remain an individual. If it happened to me, I'd want the captain
to retrieve me. If my brother was merged with anyone else, I would want
him back, no matter how nice this new person is. Etc....
: abilities, personality traits, and presumably their wills remained
: intact, albeit in blended form. This was not a case where poor old
The key word here is "presumably". If they really want to be together, they
can asked to be re-merged.
: Data was possessed by some malign life force that wanted to occupy his
: body, and thus deserved to be evicted, even at the cost of its demise.
: In this case Tuvok and Neelix, through Tuvix, appeared to choose
: freely to remain together. (Maybe they/he got used to the intimacy
: and enhanced vitality. Ask Dax how she would like to be separated
: into her components!) At any rate, the opinion of Tuvix on the matter
I think that if Tuvok and Neelix really want to be together then they could
request it, once they are seperated. Dax knew what she was getting into
with her "merging". At least she went in with her eyes open.
Again, the problem here is "Tuvok and Neelix, through Tuvix, appeared to..."
^^^^^^^^
It might actually be more the personality of Tuvix that is speaking and not
Tuvok and Neelix.
: was certainly entitled to trump the views of Janeway, Kes, et al.,
: regardless of their fears that the original Tuvok and Neelix had
: somehow gotten lost inside Tuvix. If *both* of these men truly
: yearned to be separated, wouldn't that desire have manifested itself
: throught Tuvix?
That's a good point. I think that's why the Captain had to take time to think
about it.
I sure would not have wanted to be her in this situation.
: I wonder whether Tuvok and Neelix will retain memories of their life
: as Tuvix, and perhaps some resentment or bitterness toward Janeway.
I don't know, though the last scene was short (too short IMO) they seemed
to be happy to be apart. At least Neelix was happy to see Kes.
: She has it coming.
It's not easy being the Captain.
: Joe Ramirez
I liked your comments. I think that's why I really liked this episode. It was
not an easy one. It might have been better if they spent more screen time
discussing the issues.
I hope they follow up with this episode. I'd like to hear what Tuvok and
Neelix have to say.
--
Louis Sivo
lou...@nafohq.hp.com
The Spamster
In article <4mnjtn$5...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, spev...@unity.ncsu.edu
says...
>
>: Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
Starfleet
>: captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
>: member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
>: for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
>: involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
>: tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
>: to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
>: integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
>: with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
>
>Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
>stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
>think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
Tim Russ didn't play Tuvix, another actor's whose name I
forgot did.
-The Spamster
--
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured,
the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us
all irrevocably." -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard "The Drumhead"
Bryan Derksen
: >... was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
: >captain perform.
: Good post, Joe, I agree completely. They blew it big time, unless her
: behaviour is going to be explained next episode (which wouldn't excuse
: the crew, who should have mutinied at her barbarous orders).
After first watching the episode, I felt this was a moral dilemma that
didn't have a definite "Right thing to do"(TM) solution. Though I still
think leaving Tuvix together would feel somewhat wrong, after reading some
of the excellent posts here I have to agree. Killing Tuvix was definitely
more wrong than leaving him together.
On the other hand, I think it was still a good episode; we just saw
something of *major* significance. Those vaunted Federation values seem to
be breaking down a bit, eh Janeway? Until now I've been desperately hoping
she'd realize that rigidly adhering to those values was maladaptive under
their current circumstances, and now that it's happened I can only say
"waitaminute, I didn't mean like *that*!" :) It's been two years since
Voyager was lost in the Delta Quadrant, I don't think it's implausable for
a captain to finally crack a bit.
I also think it was entirely believable for the crew to go along with
Janeway's decision, even though I though a number of them looked ready to
throw up. It's an unfortunate but very human response; an athority figure
gave an order and no one was willing to speak out because no one *else*
was speaking out either, resulting in the unresponsive-bystander
phenomenon (Yes, I just took psychology this year:)). Obedience, diffusion
of responsibility, and conformity combined to keep the crew silent. I had
really hoped that when the doctor refused to go along with the separation
it would be enough to give the others the courage to break ranks as well,
but it wasn't quite enough :(. I would have loved to see that; the crew
disobeying orders and siding with the emergency medical hologram against
the captain :)
Hopefully, this will have reprecussions later. I doubt it, this is Trek
after all, but realistically people should be having major problems with
Janeway and with themselves after something like this.
--
Bryan Derksen <bder...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>, Technomage-in-training
http://www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/ (PGP key available)
"Just once, I'd like to meet an alien menace that WASN'T immune to
bullets." - Brigadier A.G. Lethbridge-Stewart, "Dr. Who"
Nelson Lu
In article <4mnjtn$5...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>,
Scott P Evans <spev...@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
>Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
>stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
>think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
Uh, it wasn't Tim Russ; it was a guest star (Tom Wright); that's what made
the acting seem even more incredible; he really did have a strong grasp of
both characters' characteristics.
Pretender
spev...@unity.ncsu.edu (Scott P Evans) wrote:
>
>I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
>Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
>stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
>think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
No. Because he didn't. It was another actor altogether.
Grant G.
Joe
to...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Todd Horowitz) wrote:
> On the contrary; the ending is what salvages the episode. An
>actual moral dillemma with a no-win resolution! No techno-fixes to make
>things easier, no noble speeches, just two compelling moral arguments, one
>of which HAS to win. Janeway undoubtably feels like shit, but she would
>either way, which is the beauty of the episode.
There was no reasonable argument presented for what Janeway did. It
was cold-blooded murder.
Joe
Joe
bder...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Bryan Derksen) wrote:
>On the other hand, I think it was still a good episode; we just saw
>something of *major* significance. Those vaunted Federation values seem to
>be breaking down a bit, eh Janeway?
That's right, but I disagree that it makes a good episode - to crap on
everything Star Trek stands for may be controversial and even
dramatic, but be definition it is not good Star Trek.
>Hopefully, this will have reprecussions later. I doubt it, this is Trek
>after all, but realistically people should be having major problems with
>Janeway and with themselves after something like this.
This is what worries me. If Janeway now ever starts going on about the
santity of life in any future episode, it will be totally hypocritical
and unbelievable, but I doubt the writers will allow for that and thus
they will ruin her character all the more (not that you could do it
much more damage than's already been done).
Joe
Joe
lou...@nafohq.hp.com (Louis Sivo) wrote:
>Murder or saving her two lost crew members? I felt Janeway did the
>right thing.
She wasn't "saving" anybody. Two crew members were lost in the line of
duty. She cold-bloodedly murdered a third (innocent bystander) to
retrieve them. Utterly despicable, the sort of logic the most
totalitarian goverments favour, not the Federation.
>What about the uniqueness of Tuvok and Neelix? They didn't ask to be
>combined.
Who asks to be born? Tuvok and Neelix were lost in the line of duty.
You can't justify killing a third to bring them back.
>I hope they follow up with this episode. I'd like to hear what Tuvok and
>Neelix have to say.
They'd better - if they don't Voyager is dead as far as I'm concerned.
I can no longer have any respect for Janeway.
Joe
Al Ruffinelli
On 7 May 1996 20:09:33 GMT, to...@garnet.berkeley.edu wrote:
> In article <4mn5ee$6...@ss.netgate.net>,
> Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net> wrote:
> >
> >me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
> >part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
> On the contrary; the ending is what salvages the episode. An
> actual moral dillemma with a no-win resolution! No techno-fixes to make
> things easier, no noble speeches, just two compelling moral arguments, one
> of which HAS to win. Janeway undoubtably feels like shit, but she would
> either way, which is the beauty of the episode.
there's no dilemma at all. tuvok and neelix were lost as individuals in the
accident. there was no premeditation there. tuvix became more than the
sum of the parts, an individual on his own. killing tuvix was NOT
justified. this WAS premeditated.
> >
> >we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
> >decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
> Janeway's argument that she has to speak for Tuvok and Neelix, who
> "have no voice" tells you where she's coming from. As for the rest of
> the crew, I think Kes stands in for them. If she could not speak on Neelock's
> behalf, who could?
no, it wasn't her decision. again, tuvok and neelix were not held hostage
by any conscious decision. it was an accident. hey, shit happens. killing
tuvix was a deliberate act. a whole different story.
> The reason most of the crew stood by is because they did not want to
> have to make this choiice, and they were relieved that Janeway was there to
> make it for them.
> Todd
hey, the doctor stood up.
Scott P Evans
Scott P Evans (spev...@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: : with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
:
: I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
: stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
: think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
OK, so I goofed. I've been informwed that it wasn't Tim Russ who played
Tuvix. My bad. He still did a good job though.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mmlqk$s...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) writes:
>SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS (although I don't know why this should be a
>problem; isn't *Voyager* shown at the same time everywhere, at least
>in the U.S.?)
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
>Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
>captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
>member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
>for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
>involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
>tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
>to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
>integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
>with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
>
>I wonder whether Tuvok and Neelix will retain memories of their life
>as Tuvix, and perhaps some resentment or bitterness toward Janeway.
>She has it coming.
>
actually the decission is rather logical. spocks own words form the second
movie, the good/needs of the few( or one) outweigh the good/needs of the
many( or two in this case). an interesting aside is that tuvix was wanting
to be seperated right after the event i think or certainly was not opposed
to it. as janeway said the fundamental point is that tuvok and neelix
both have lives and would want to return to them if they had a choice
in the matter. it is actually the uniqueness of the two orginal people
that janeway was protecting. to be honest i really dont see how the
doctor was tring to use the hipocratic(sp) oath as an excuse to not do
this since he would surely realize that if tuvix continues that is in
effect the death of both tuvok and neelix which i have a hard time seeing
how could be worse that the unjoining of tuvix.
it would be nice if they did show some references to the experience later
in the show. i would highly doubt tuvok would have any resentment
( or whatever passes for resentment in vulcans :) since he would realize
that two lives( one of which his) would have to end for tuvix to live.
for neelix's part i dont know, but i sort of get the idea that he would
complain no matter what.
--
buckysan: the phantom teaching fellow
annapuma and unapumma in 96'
" the realization that the pursuit of knowledge can be an
end unto itself is the beginning and highest form of wisdom"
Bill
Scott P Evans wrote:
<snip>
> Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW - don't you think he did a great job of incorporating
> both characters into one?--
It wasn't Tim Russ who portrayed Tuvix. It was a totally different actor (though I couldn't tell you his
name).
Chris
Come on! People saying Janeway is a murderer are going way overboard!
Would it make you happier to know that Janeway can bring back Tuvix
whenever she wants by just having Neelix and Tuvok go through the
transporter holding daisies again? In fact, just take any two people
on board the ship and create a mixture from those two! How about
B'Ellana and Kes! How about Janeway and Tuvok! Now there's something!
A male and female getting mixed together. You think the plant could
successfully merge the genders? What would the gender of Janevok be?
Could he/she/it fertilize itself? The plant could merge two different
races from worlds 70,000 light years apart, so it could probably merge
the two genders. And hey! While we're at it, let's merge Kessana with
Janevok and you'll have a combo of Janeway, Tuvok, Kes, and B'Ellana.
Janevellanes would be 3/4 female, and of four different races too!
Would the life span of Janevellanes be the average of 225 (Vulcan),
90 (human in 24th century), 9 (Okampa), and ?? (half-Klingon), or would
some other calculation take place?
What if you merged Janevok with Paris? The result would be 50% Paris,
25% Janeway, and 25% Tuvok. You couldn't get 33% of each unless the
plant knew how to combine THREE different genetic codes when the
transporter transported three at a time, which would make it even more
interesting (and bizarre).
And if they figured out how to do the Thomas Riker phenomenon on purpose,
just imagine the possibilities!
-- Chris DuBose, truth-seeker and Cal Poly Pomona computer scientist
Fan of Queen, Moria, Star Trek, Seattle, Torey Hayden, and the Amiga
Charlene Vickers
Joe Ramirez wrote:
>
> SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS (although I don't know why this should be a
> problem; isn't *Voyager* shown at the same time everywhere, at least
> in the U.S.?)
No. The stations that buy Voyager on a syndicated basis in non-
UPN served areas can show it at any time in that week.
I assume that you didn't mean to insult non-Americans by implying
that their right not to have Voyager spoiled is somehow less
important than an American's. It's sometimes difficult to say
what you mean without putting your foot in your mouth *as I well
know!* Voyager is seen in Canada the same week as it is in the US.
It's on Mondays in Toronto, Thursdays in Edmonton, and I think
Fridays in Calgary (or at least it was!).
Perhaps in other countries as well....
Charlene Vickers
cvic...@internorth.com
Marguerite Petersen
In article <4moalt$3...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <4mn5ee$6...@ss.netgate.net>,
>Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net> wrote:
>>
>>me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
>>part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
>
> On the contrary; the ending is what salvages the episode. An
>actual moral dillemma with a no-win resolution! No techno-fixes to make
>things easier, no noble speeches, just two compelling moral arguments, one
>of which HAS to win. Janeway undoubtably feels like shit, but she would
>either way, which is the beauty of the episode.
Yup, most definitely agreed! A definite moral dilemma. And
Janeway was the *only* one who could face that dilemma and
make the decision. That was made pretty clear when even the
DOCTOR refused to assist her. It was her job to make the
decision and her decision alone. Not a great dilemma to be
faced with.
>>
>>we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
>>decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
>
> Janeway's argument that she has to speak for Tuvok and Neelix, who
>"have no voice" tells you where she's coming from. As for the rest of
>the crew, I think Kes stands in for them. If she could not speak on Neelock's
>behalf, who could?
Agreed. Particularly since many of the crew seemed to *like*
Tuvix more than they liked either of the other individuals.
> The reason most of the crew stood by is because they did not want to
>have to make this choiice, and they were relieved that Janeway was there to
>make it for them.
>
> Todd
I know that *I* certainly wouldn't want to be put in the situation
of making such a choice. It was Janeway's responsibility to make
the decision and she did.
Marg
--
Member PSEB Official Sonneteer JLP SoL
Charter Member WISE WOMEN OF THE WEB
pet...@peak.org http://www.orst.edu/~peterseb/marg.html
Eric Newman
spev...@unity.ncsu.edu (Scott P Evans) wrote:
>I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
>Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
>stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
>think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
No. Especially because that wasn't Tim Russ.
Eric Newman
ed...@intac.com
¤¿¤
Bryan Derksen
Louis Sivo (lou...@nafohq.hp.com) wrote:
: Joe Ramirez (jra...@ibm.net) wrote:
: : Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
: Murder or saving her two lost crew members? I felt Janeway did the
: right thing.
I think Janeway did *both*. She murdered Tuvix and saved two crewmembers.
I also think it would take an incredible bit of moral contortionism to
class that murder as 'in their defence', as if Tuvix were somehow holding
the two hostage.
: : Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
: : captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
: : member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
: : for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
: : involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
: : tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
: : to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
: : integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
: : with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
: What about the uniqueness of Tuvok and Neelix? They didn't ask to be
: combined.
: In your examples above "member of a unisex species" and "Data" in both cases
: they as individuals were being harmed. No one had "lost" their life or
: personality by their existence.
Okay, how about this analogy then:
Janeway is to Tuvix as the Vidiian doctor in "Faces" was to Lt. Durst.
The Vidiian justified breaking Durst down for parts by saying that
"dozens of lives will be saved with his organs".
Janeway justified breaking Tuvix down by saying that two lives would be
saved by that action.
Just looking at the numbers of lives saved, it looks like the Vidiian
was more 'in the right' than Janeway was.
Of course, no analogy is exactly perfect. But the more I look at this, the
more it seems like Janeway made the wrong choice. If Tuvix had been
willing to go along with 'the good of the many outweighs the good of the
few' of his own free will, I could have respected that. It would have been
a cop-out from a writing perspective, but noble on Tuvix's part. But when
he refused, Janeway called security guards and *forced* it on him. She in
essence told him, "You will sacrifice your life to save those two, whether
you want to or not." This feels very wrong to me.
Nelson Lu
In article <4mojjn$t...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>lou...@nafohq.hp.com (Louis Sivo) wrote:
>
>>Murder or saving her two lost crew members? I felt Janeway did the
>>right thing.
>
>duty. She cold-bloodedly murdered a third (innocent bystander) to
>retrieve them. Utterly despicable, the sort of logic the most
>totalitarian goverments favour, not the Federation.
Ah, but she was -- Tuvok and Neelix were not irrevocably lost. They could be
retrieved by splitting Tuvix.
If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
James Grady Ward
In article <4mojjn$t...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>Who asks to be born? Tuvok and Neelix were lost in the line of duty.
>You can't justify killing a third to bring them back.
>
well that is really what the question comes down to, were neelix and
tuvok actually lost. seeing as the crew was still tring to find a
way to seperate them, obviously they had not decided that their
shipmates had died at the moment tuvix started. even tuvix did not
seem to be opposed to being seperated right after the accident
happened. and besides can you really prove that anything was killed?
assuming that the two people involved remember what happened,
they relationship would be tuvix living on in some sense.
and something some what totally off the subject, for you guys who
say that rodenberry would never have aired this episode then you have
totaly missed the point of what star trek was supposed to be first and
foremost. it was meant to make people think about moral and political
issues and if you dont say that that is not what this discussion is
getting into then you are beyond clueless. i wonder if this will
still be discusing the show by tommorow or just the choice that was
made in the show.....
later
James Grady Ward
In article <4momcb$f...@ss.netgate.net>, alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) writes:
>On 7 May 1996 20:09:33 GMT, to...@garnet.berkeley.edu wrote:
>> In article <4mn5ee$6...@ss.netgate.net>,
>> Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
>> >part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
>
>> On the contrary; the ending is what salvages the episode. An
>> actual moral dillemma with a no-win resolution! No techno-fixes to make
>> things easier, no noble speeches, just two compelling moral arguments, one
>> of which HAS to win. Janeway undoubtably feels like shit, but she would
>> either way, which is the beauty of the episode.
>
>there's no dilemma at all. tuvok and neelix were lost as individuals in the
>accident. there was no premeditation there. tuvix became more than the
>sum of the parts, an individual on his own. killing tuvix was NOT
>justified. this WAS premeditated.
>
at what point were tuvok and neelix listed as dead, i dont remember anykind
of funeral or memorial service. i also got the impression that the crew
was still tring to find a way to undo the joining. no where did i get the
impression that ANYONE on the ship thought of tuvok and neelix as dead.
>> >
>> >we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
>> >decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
>
>> Janeway's argument that she has to speak for Tuvok and Neelix, who
>> "have no voice" tells you where she's coming from. As for the rest of
>> the crew, I think Kes stands in for them. If she could not speak on Neelock's
>> behalf, who could?
>
>no, it wasn't her decision. again, tuvok and neelix were not held hostage
>by any conscious decision. it was an accident. hey, shit happens. killing
>tuvix was a deliberate act. a whole different story.
to say this you must assume that tuvix was alive independently of
tuvok and neelix which would be silly since he was the two of them
merged together( unasked for you might remember). as janeway said
when did tuvix stop being tuvok and neelix is a weird transporter
accident and start being a seperate person. one would assume that
any decent crew would have had some kind of wake after losing two
dear shipmates( well at least one liked shipmate :) like i said
i dont remember any mention of them being dead.
>
>> The reason most of the crew stood by is because they did not want to
>> have to make this choiice, and they were relieved that Janeway was there to
>> make it for them.
>
>> Todd
>
>hey, the doctor stood up.
>
>
catscan
Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) wrote:
:
Amen to that. I hate the bitch i hope they get rid of her character.
Why is it they kill of every good story line they come up with by the end of the
hour.
Tuvix had definite possibility's. I disliked nelix cause i thought he was to
brassy. I did not care for Tuvok because i thought he was to reserved. I
thought tuvix was a excellentmix of the to. I really wish they had kept him
around. Besides there were other alternitives. They could have used the Thomas
riker Phenonomen to make to copys of Tuvix and b4 the other one even
rematerilized they could have shunted him through the medical transporter and
Whola tuvock Nelix and Tuvix. Janeway had no right to kill one to save two.
It was not her decision.
She was probably haveing a bad day and decided she needed tuvock's shoulder to
cry on.
Anyway thats what i think
Junsok Yang
In article <4mopdj$e...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu says...
>and something some what totally off the subject, for you guys who
>say that rodenberry would never have aired this episode then you have
>totaly missed the point of what star trek was supposed to be first and
>foremost. it was meant to make people think about moral and political
>issues and if you dont say that that is not what this discussion is
>getting into then you are beyond clueless. i wonder if this will
>still be discusing the show by tommorow or just the choice that was
>made in the show.....
The parellels between "Tuvik" and TOS "The City on the Edge of Forever"
where Kirk "let" Edith Keeler die has already been noted a half dozen times.
Also, I would like to point out the parellel between "Tuvik" and TOS "The
Conscience of the King" where the villain had previously sacrificed half of
the population under his charge to save the other half when the food supply
unexpectedly ran out.
He was vilified for three reasons: He killed half the population;
appearently the choice was made randomly and the people were not given a
choice whether to sacrifice themselves for others; AND there was an
*UNSCHEDULED* supply ship nearby which would have made the killings
unnecessary *had he known about it.*
Sometimes I get disturbed by this episode because, as the villain himself
(Koridian, I believe) said in the episode, had there NOT been that
unscheduled supply ship, he just as might have been treated as a hero.
--
****************************************************************
"The idea seems to be that if people refuse to obey the
equations we have fit to their past behavior, we can pass laws to
make them do so." ... Robert Lucas & Thomas Sargent
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu)
James Grady Ward
In article <4mopm9$f...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, bder...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (Bryan Derksen) writes:
>
>Okay, how about this analogy then:
>
>Janeway is to Tuvix as the Vidiian doctor in "Faces" was to Lt. Durst.
>
> The Vidiian justified breaking Durst down for parts by saying that
> "dozens of lives will be saved with his organs".
> Janeway justified breaking Tuvix down by saying that two lives would be
> saved by that action.
>
>Just looking at the numbers of lives saved, it looks like the Vidiian
>was more 'in the right' than Janeway was.
there is a difference, the vidiian just picked durst at random to harvest
organs from. tuvix was the only one that could be used to restore( not
return) tuvok and neelix to their normal selves.
>
>Of course, no analogy is exactly perfect. But the more I look at this, the
>more it seems like Janeway made the wrong choice. If Tuvix had been
>willing to go along with 'the good of the many outweighs the good of the
>few' of his own free will, I could have respected that. It would have been
>a cop-out from a writing perspective, but noble on Tuvix's part. But when
>he refused, Janeway called security guards and *forced* it on him. She in
>essence told him, "You will sacrifice your life to save those two, whether
>you want to or not." This feels very wrong to me.
>
so you dont like not being in charge, what is your point. nasty decisions
are a side effect of being in charge. also having the guts to back up
the decisions once made is part of it as well. what you saw is the way
someone who understands command should behave, even if you dont like
what she decided.
Al Ruffinelli
On 8 May 1996 01:37:40 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU wrote:
[snip]
> If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
well, DUH! "not splitting tuvix" is not murder because tuvix came to be as
an accident. there was no premeditation there.
James Grady Ward
In article <31903399...@news.centuryinter.net>, cat...@centuryinter.net (catscan) writes:
>Amen to that. I hate the bitch i hope they get rid of her character.
>Why is it they kill of every good story line they come up with by the end of the
>hour.
>
ah so we just hate the female captain i see.
>
>Tuvix had definite possibility's. I disliked nelix cause i thought he was to
>brassy. I did not care for Tuvok because i thought he was to reserved. I
>thought tuvix was a excellentmix of the to. I really wish they had kept him
>around. Besides there were other alternitives. They could have used the Thomas
>riker Phenonomen to make to copys of Tuvix and b4 the other one even
>rematerilized they could have shunted him through the medical transporter and
>Whola tuvock Nelix and Tuvix. Janeway had no right to kill one to save two.
>It was not her decision.
>
lets see, i remember people bitching about silly transporter shows
being annoying. now since they cant deal with a real decision being
made on the show that has serious moral implications they run to the
transporter glitches to save their poor little minds from considering
the consequences of either janeway's action or possible non action.
since everyone seems to remember rikers cloning deal, why is it
that they forget that it had something to do with the atmoshpere
of that planet that caused him to get split into two people. is not
something that can be do anywhere, or are we willing to let the gods
of technobable enter the show to not have to think about moral
consequences anymore.
IF you insist on this line of reasoning, at least use something that
would definitely be doable by the ship. i can see know reason why
the good doctor could not have borrowed a few stomach cells and
made a normal clone. there are you happy? an at least beleivable way
to have two tuvix's so you can safely and totally free of moral
consequences split one into tuvok and neelix. is it life so wonderful
now. anyone got a mop i have a pinkish mess to clean up now.
ApplCinamn
In article <4mo608$16...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
bca...@argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Brad J Cadle) writes:
> Several people mentioned how they are
>losing faith in the Federation and Janeway in particular.
>One person mentioned that the federation seems to shy away from
>consequences of anything unusual that happens. It's as if the
>federation wants to maintain a status quo and have control of
>everything.
Some folks like to refer to Kirk's regulation-defying actions as making
him out to be like some renegade who lets the power of the captaincy get
to him. If you follow the evolution of 3 of the Treks (excluding DS9 for
the moment), you notice how the idea of politically correct or
Federation-correct becomes an increasingly more dominant presence, to the
point where the air is so thick with it you want to choke on it. That
"cowboy diplomacy" that came to define Kirk came in pretty handy at times
when Federation protocols weren't up to the job--hell, if he hadn't defied
regulations, he would have sat in the Constellation watching Commodore
Decker lead the ship to certain destruction in "The Doomsday Machine."
He'd have let the Earth be destroyed in ST IV. He doesn't break the rules
for the sake of breaking them--he's the guy out in space on a ship having
to make life and death decisions, unlike the bureaucrats in Starfleet.
Picard, I would say, is probably your average Starfleet captain. He tows
the line 99% of the time--it's a job and that's what they have to do, so
to speak. With Janeway, Starfleet has evolved (devolved?) into Big
Brother. She seems so conditioned by it that it overrides everything
else--she plays at being open-minded but in the end, her uniform squeezes
the expected reaction out of her. I hope this series changes direction (in
more ways than one) in the upcoming seasons.
Clint Brome
Robert Hubby (rah...@sonic.net) wrote:
: Al Ruffinelli (alv...@ng.netgate.net) wrote:
: : On Tue, 07 May 1996 06:55:22 GMT, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca wrote:
: : > jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
: : > >... was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
: : > >captain perform.
: : > Good post, Joe, I agree completely. They blew it big time, unless her
: : > behaviour is going to be explained next episode (which wouldn't excuse
: : > the crew, who should have mutinied at her barbarous orders).
: : me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
: : part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
: : we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
: : decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
: I may as well voice in as a "Me 4"...unfortunately, my VCR cut out just as
: Janeway triggered the Sep-Sequence, so I didn't see what happened. I
: probably only missed about 30 seconds of the episode, but it was the
: resolution, Damnit! Anyone know what happened then, and can let me know?
Well, here goes: "Me 5". I would have been less surprised to see
Janeway relieved by Chakotay than I was to see the command staff of a
Federation Starship sit by idly and watch cold blooded murder.
What's going on? Certainly Picard set a very high standard, but are
there no other Captains in Starfleet who know the difference between
right and wrong?
Just last week (two weeks ago?) Captain Sisko tore into Worf, albeit
in private, telling him that he should _never_, _ever_ fire on a ship
in the middle of a heated combat unless he is absolutely certain that
it is not a civilian vessel. How many times have we seen ships firing
on cloaked vessels??
Sisko was upset about how things seemed to have turned out, and
blamed Worf for the consequences, not the actions, in my opinion.
It seems to me that Janeway did the same thing -- made her decision
based on the outcome she wanted, not the action that would be moral.
Is there no one in the Federation who still believes that the ends
don't justify the means? (You would have thought that Sisko would
have learned this lesson during his brief time on Earth, when that
admiral was willing to bring an end to the democratic government of
the Federation in order to defend it from the Dominion.)
Clint
: R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
: "There's Klingons on the starboard bow (starboard bow, starboard bow)
: There's Klingons on the starboard bow starboard bow, Jim!"
: - Uhura's "voice" from "Star Trekking"
G. Micha Giacometti
From watching the episode again, did you notice that the only way Janeway
could proceed with the separation was is she was cold-hearted? I could
see the pain in her face during and after the procedure. I think they
could have gotten Neelix and Tuvok back without killing Tuvix, but I
don't think that TPTB wanted to pay another actor.
--
Mike Giacometti
Computer and Information Sciences
IOGKF Delaware
Todd Horowitz
In article <4momcb$f...@ss.netgate.net>,
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net> wrote:
[deleta]
>there's no dilemma at all. tuvok and neelix were lost as individuals in the
>accident. there was no premeditation there. tuvix became more than the
>sum of the parts, an individual on his own. killing tuvix was NOT
>justified. this WAS premeditated.
[and again]
>no, it wasn't her decision. again, tuvok and neelix were not held hostage
>by any conscious decision. it was an accident. hey, shit happens. killing
>tuvix was a deliberate act. a whole different story.
Failing to recover Tuvok and Neelix, given the ability (which Janeway
possessed), would also be a deliberate act. Failure to act is still an
act, a decision.
Now, I'm not saying that Janeway was necessarily justified. I'm
not even interested in the question. But it clearly WAS a dilemma, and
either decision brings heavy costs. THAT'S what makes this episode stand
out above the pap that Voyager's been giving us the rest of the season,
despite the absurd premise.
Todd
Tony Warmuth
I usually hate "transporter accident" episodes but I must
admit I was very impressed by this weeks Voyager "Tuvix."
Although I disagree with the captains decision to kill
Tuvix, I was happy to see that everything didn't just work
out fine. I hope this issue surfaces again and is not
just forgotten. THe actor who play Tuvix did a great
job incorporating the personality and actions of both
Neelix and Tuvok.
One thing I found interesting... Janeway says at the end
that both Neelix and Tuvok would give up their lives for an
innocent, so Tuvix should give up his life for them. This is
a week argument. If she really believed that, why didn't
let Tuvix keep living since Neelix and Tuvok would have been
to give up their lives. After all Tuvix was innocent in all this.
One other minor nit: Why didn't the plants materialize on the bio
bed with Neelix and Tuvok at the end. After all wasn't that
incorporated into Tuvix too? Or is the plant DNA still in Neelix
and Tuvok?
Just my thoughts,
Tony
Joe
alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) wrote:
>On 8 May 1996 01:37:40 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU wrote:
>[snip]
>> If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
>well, DUH! "not splitting tuvix" is not murder because tuvix came to be as
>an accident. there was no premeditation there.
Utter nonsense. By your logic, if the Kazona took Paris and Kim
hostage, and threatened to kill them unless Janeway executed Chakotay,
she would have to do it to avoid "murdering" Paris and Kim.
What Janeway did to Tuvix was exactly like that - killing an innocent
life to get back two others. There's no way a Federation captain (or
any other civilized life for that matter) can justify that.
Joe
Joe
jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu (James Grady Ward) wrote:
> what you saw is the way
>someone who understands command should behave, even if you dont like
>what she decided.
What nonsense - I sure wouldn't want to be under her command. Who
knows, maybe two other crewman with my blood type would get an illness
that sucked all their blood out, and the only way Janeway could save
them was by killing me. That butcher wouldn't hesitate.
Yet I would have no similar fear on a ship captained by Picard or
Kirk, they would never sink to the barbarism that Janeway did.
Joe
Joe
br...@harvard.edu (Clint Brome) wrote:
> Sisko was upset about how things seemed to have turned out, and
>blamed Worf for the consequences, not the actions, in my opinion.
>It seems to me that Janeway did the same thing -- made her decision
>based on the outcome she wanted, not the action that would be moral.
I disagree, the results turned out ok, since no one was really killed.
It was the action, of risking innocent life to save their own lives,
that infuriated Sisko.
I agree with the rest of your post, it's too bad there's no one (aside
from the holograph <g>) on Voyager who has regard for innocent life.
Joe
Junsok Yang
In article <4molsi$d...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu says...
>In article <4mmlqk$s...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, jra...@ibm.net (Joe
Ramirez) writes:
>>SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS (although I don't know why this should be a
>>problem; isn't *Voyager* shown at the same time everywhere, at least
>>in the U.S.?)
>to be honest i really dont see how the
>doctor was tring to use the hipocratic(sp) oath as an excuse to not do
>this since he would surely realize that if tuvix continues that is in
>effect the death of both tuvok and neelix which i have a hard time seeing
>how could be worse that the unjoining of tuvix.
If I remember correctly, the Hippocratic Oath goes "do no harm." If the
Doctor carries out the action, Tuvix will be *harmed*, though Neelix and
Tuvok will be cured; If he does NOT carry the action, Tuvix will not be
harmed, and Neelix and Tuvok will *stay at the same state* they are
currently in. *Logically,* if we follow the Hippocratic Oath, it seems the
Doctor carried out the right action. (Now, if the Hippocratic Oath said:
"cure as many as possible," then the Doctor did not follow the Oath.)
Now, as whether to the doctors nowadays are following such adage of the
Hippocratic Oath ... Well, I'll keep my mouth shut. :)
Bryan Derksen
Joe (Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:
: spev...@unity.ncsu.edu (Scott P Evans) wrote:
: >I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
: >Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
: >stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
: >think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
: Or they could have *copied* Neelix and Tuvok back out, and left Tuvix
: alive (they could have easily written him onto an alien planet or
: something if they didn't want him to stay on the show).
Unfortunately, the copying of Riker was a fluke and it required a planet
with an atmosphere full of phased matter. Under normal circumstances it is
impossible to replicate something at quantum resolution (ie, with enough
detail to be alive). If they whip up the technology to do so simply to
find an easy way out of this dilemma, then the writers will have to
explain in every episode from here on why they don't use the technology
for anything else (just like they have to explain why Voyager hasn't used
the transwarp drive they invented in "Threshold". We're waiting,
writers... :)
Christina Jean Gindratt
Joe Ramirez (jra...@ibm.net) wrote:
: SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS (although I don't know why this should be a
: problem; isn't *Voyager* shown at the same time everywhere, at least
: in the U.S.?)
NO!!!!! Voyager is shown at 6:00 p.m. on Saturdays in Austin TX.
: Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
: Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
: captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
: member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
: for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
: involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
: tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
: to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
: integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
: with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
: Janeway seemed to give undue weight to her own wishes, and those of
: certain members of the crew, to have Tuvok and Neelix back in their
: old forms. Well, fine, if they agree to it -- but they didn't! Tuvok
: and Neelix weren't killed, captured or imprisoned; they were simply
: merged into a single person. Bizarre, yes, but their memories,
: abilities, personality traits, and presumably their wills remained
: intact, albeit in blended form. This was not a case where poor old
: Data was possessed by some malign life force that wanted to occupy his
: body, and thus deserved to be evicted, even at the cost of its demise.
: In this case Tuvok and Neelix, through Tuvix, appeared to choose
: freely to remain together. (Maybe they/he got used to the intimacy
: and enhanced vitality. Ask Dax how she would like to be separated
: into her components!) At any rate, the opinion of Tuvix on the matter
: was certainly entitled to trump the views of Janeway, Kes, et al.,
: regardless of their fears that the original Tuvok and Neelix had
: somehow gotten lost inside Tuvix. If *both* of these men truly
: yearned to be separated, wouldn't that desire have manifested itself
: throught Tuvix?
: I wonder whether Tuvok and Neelix will retain memories of their life
: as Tuvix, and perhaps some resentment or bitterness toward Janeway.
: She has it coming.
: Joe Ramirez
Nelson Lu
In article <4mpm2a$7...@ss.netgate.net>,
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net> wrote:
>On 8 May 1996 01:37:40 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU wrote:
>[snip]
>> If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
>
>well, DUH! "not splitting tuvix" is not murder because tuvix came to be as
>an accident. there was no premeditation there.
Why is there no premeditation? If Janeway had decided the other way, she
obviously would have thought long and hard before deciding not to split Tuvix.
I'd call that premeditation.
Victor Eijkhout
> probably only missed about 30 seconds of the episode, but it was the
> resolution, Damnit! Anyone know what happened then, and can let me know?
Well, they were separated.
You missed Janeway walking out the door and in the space
of a second or two going through the emotions of
sadness, bitterness, resignation, back-to-work.
There have been a few more moments like that were she
shows to have many times the emotional range of Picard,
let alone Kirk. (I know I should distinguish between
the character and the actor, but you know that.)
Victor.
--
405 Hilgard Ave ......................... ``Like most of these things [CDroms],
Department of Mathematics, UCLA ................ it was doubtless put together
Los Angeles CA 90024 ................................ by a small team of [...]
phone: +1 310 825 2173 / 9036 ..................... teenagers wearing reversed
http://www.math.ucla.edu/~eijkhout/ baseball caps.'' [Times19960428]
Bryan Derksen
Subject: Re: Tuvix R.I.P. (Spoilers)
Newsgroups: alt.tv.star-trek.voyager,rec.arts.startrek.current
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James Grady Ward (jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: In article <4mopm9$f...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, bder...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (Bryan Derksen) writes:
: >
: >Okay, how about this analogy then:
: >
: >Janeway is to Tuvix as the Vidiian doctor in "Faces" was to Lt. Durst.
: >
: > The Vidiian justified breaking Durst down for parts by saying that
: > "dozens of lives will be saved with his organs".
: > Janeway justified breaking Tuvix down by saying that two lives would be
: > saved by that action.
: >
: >Just looking at the numbers of lives saved, it looks like the Vidiian
: >was more 'in the right' than Janeway was.
: there is a difference, the vidiian just picked durst at random to harvest
: organs from. tuvix was the only one that could be used to restore( not
: return) tuvok and neelix to their normal selves.
So if we had two dying Vidiians, and Durst was the *only* person whose
tissue type was compatable for transplant, it would be all right then?
: >Of course, no analogy is exactly perfect. But the more I look at this, the
: >more it seems like Janeway made the wrong choice. If Tuvix had been
: >willing to go along with 'the good of the many outweighs the good of the
: >few' of his own free will, I could have respected that. It would have been
: >a cop-out from a writing perspective, but noble on Tuvix's part. But when
: >he refused, Janeway called security guards and *forced* it on him. She in
: >essence told him, "You will sacrifice your life to save those two, whether
: >you want to or not." This feels very wrong to me.
: >
: so you dont like not being in charge, what is your point. nasty decisions
: are a side effect of being in charge. also having the guts to back up
: the decisions once made is part of it as well. what you saw is the way
: someone who understands command should behave, even if you dont like
: what she decided.
My *point* is simply that I don't think Janeway did the right thing. I
think she murdered an innocent man. Should I agree with her decisions just
because she's captain and has the guts to back them up?
Though a Starfleet ship isn't exactly a democracy, there are certain
limits to what a captain can order people to do. I would strongly suspect
that executing an innocent man is one of them, and as a result I also
think that the crew should have disobeyed her order. But that's another
point which I wasn't specifically adressing here.
heff
>
>Okay, how about this analogy then:
>
>Janeway is to Tuvix as the Vidiian doctor in "Faces" was to Lt. Durst.
>
> The Vidiian justified breaking Durst down for parts by saying that
> "dozens of lives will be saved with his organs".
> Janeway justified breaking Tuvix down by saying that two lives would be
> saved by that action.
That's a pretty good comparison. It beats using capital punishment as a
model.
My problem with all of this is that I don't think the fact that Tuvix saw himself
as a new and seperate lifeform necessarily means that he *was* a new and
seperate lifeform, as opposed to being an artificially altered version of Tuvok and
Neelix, (who, as I see it, never died but changed) that was eventually put back
into the original forms.
Stitch two guys together, wipe their memories and retrain them with
someone else's memories; you didn't end their lives, just changed them
dramatically.
I still think Tuvok and Neelix deserved their individuality back the same way
that a Vidiian's victim deserves to keep his own organs rather than give them up.
Magine
jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu (James Grady Ward) wrote:
<snip snip>
>IF you insist on this line of reasoning, at least use something that
>would definitely be doable by the ship. i can see know reason why
>the good doctor could not have borrowed a few stomach cells and
>made a normal clone. there are you happy? an at least beleivable way
>to have two tuvix's so you can safely and totally free of moral
>consequences split one into tuvok and neelix. is it life so wonderful
>now. anyone got a mop i have a pinkish mess to clean up now.
That solution wouldn't really resolve the problem since the
*duplicate* Tuvix would *also* be an independent being with it's own
wish to continue to exist and not be split.
But...I agree that a technobabble solution would have been a cop-out.
At least they did avoid that. I still think the decision Janeway
reached was reprehensible. And NOT because I really give a darn if
they get rid of Tuvok/Neelix or keep them.
I just wanted to comment, however, that technology substituting as
morality has a sad precedent in Trek. The funniest line I ever heard
in ST was in "Encounter at Farpoint" when Picard says "We no longer
enslave lower animals for food!" (Since we can replicate meat, we
don't have to. How enlightened we are!) :P Until the replicator breaks
down.
-Magine
Magine
jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
<I'll crassly omit the spoiler space since the Subject already
contains a warning.>
>Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
>Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
>captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
>member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
>for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
>involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
>tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
>to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
>integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
>with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
Agreed.
<snip>
>merged into a single person. Bizarre, yes, but their memories,
>abilities, personality traits, and presumably their wills remained
>intact, albeit in blended form.
Well, the idea was that their individual wills did *not* remain intact
in Tuvix; he was a new individual. But that's beside the point, IMHO.
> This was not a case where poor old Data was possessed by some
> malign life force that wanted to occupy his body, and thus deserved
> to be evicted, even at the cost of its demise.
Funny, they broadcast that episode of TNG a few nights ago where I
live. Coincidence or counterpoint to "Tuvix", I wonder? Anyway, I
agree it's not the same thing. The scientist that usurped Data's body
had already lived his life and would have expired naturally at that
point; he had no right to steal Data's existence to extend his own
unnaturally. Different situation entirely, yes.
-Magine
Magine
jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu (James Grady Ward) wrote:
>there is a difference, the vidiian just picked durst at random to harvest
>organs from. tuvix was the only one that could be used to restore( not
>return) tuvok and neelix to their normal selves.
So, if there was only one *specific* person in the universe who could
contribute their body parts to save a specfic group of Vidiians, then
it would be okay to force them to give up their organs, and die??
Even if it were true that the person "ought" to donate, what gives
Janeway or any authority, military, governmental or whatever, the
right to *demand* that sacrifice?
-Magine
Magine
Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) wrote:
>jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
>
>>... was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
>>captain perform.
>
>Good post, Joe, I agree completely. They blew it big time, unless her
>behaviour is going to be explained next episode (which wouldn't excuse
>the crew, who should have mutinied at her barbarous orders).
>
>Joe
Unfortunately, I think we're supposed to believe that Janeway made a
tough but necessary decision. I think she made a tough but incorrect
decision.
-Magine
Magine
alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) wrote:
>we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for janeway's
>decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's argument, either.
They didn't react because they "knew" she was "right". Gag! :<
-Magine
Magine
to...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Todd Horowitz) wrote:
<snip>
> The reason most of the crew stood by is because they did not want to
>have to make this choiice, and they were relieved that Janeway was there to
>make it for them.
>
Yes. And the decision was made not on the basis of morality, but on
the basis of what everyone (other than Tuvix) would feel most
comfortable with.
-Magine
GeneK
On May 08, 1996 00:21:07 in article <Re: Tuvix R.I.P. (Spoilers)>,
'jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu (James Grady Ward)' wrote:
>for you guys who
>say that rodenberry would never have aired this episode then you have
>totaly missed the point of what star trek was supposed to be first and
>foremost. it was meant to make people think about moral and political
>issues
No matter what decsion she made, SHE was doomed to feel that she'd been
responsible for SOMEBODY'S death. She made the decision and now she must
live with it...
Gene
Joe
alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) wrote:
>you're not replying to my post, but it looks that way. maybe you didn't
>read it?
Sorry, Al, I mis-read your post.
Joe
Bryan Derksen
Nelson Lu (n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
The event which destroyed Tuvok and Neelix in the first place, and
incidentally created Tuvix at the same time, was without premeditation. it
was an accident, and accidents happen.
Tuvok and Neelix's lives terminated at the time when the accident
occurred. If Janeway later decided not to split Tuvix then they would have
simply stayed dead, not somehow become 'officially dead' at that very
moment.
R. Tang
In article <4mott4$l...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>,
Nelson Lu <n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>Ah, but she was -- Tuvok and Neelix were not irrevocably lost. They could be
>retrieved by splitting Tuvix.
>
>If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
Um...um...umm...just..just..BECAUSE.
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
Editor, Asian American Theatre Central:
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~gwangung/TC.html
"The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
R. Tang
In article <4moitn$s...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>to...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Todd Horowitz) wrote:
>> On the contrary; the ending is what salvages the episode. An
>>actual moral dillemma with a no-win resolution! No techno-fixes to make
>>things easier, no noble speeches, just two compelling moral arguments, one
>>of which HAS to win. Janeway undoubtably feels like shit, but she would
>>either way, which is the beauty of the episode.
>
>There was no reasonable argument presented for what Janeway did. It
>was cold-blooded murder.
And so was leaving Tuvix as is.
So?
R. Tang
In article <4mojjn$t...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>lou...@nafohq.hp.com (Louis Sivo) wrote:
>
>>Murder or saving her two lost crew members? I felt Janeway did the
>>right thing.
>
>She wasn't "saving" anybody. Two crew members were lost in the line of
>duty. She cold-bloodedly murdered a third (innocent bystander) to
>retrieve them. Utterly despicable, the sort of logic the most
>totalitarian goverments favour, not the Federation.
And by leaving Tuvix as is, she is, in effect, continuously
murdering Tuvok and Neelix. Equally despicable.
I frankly find your callousness toward Neelix and Tuvok to be as
morally reprehensible as to what you're realing against.
R. Tang
In article <4mpm2a$7...@ss.netgate.net>,
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net> wrote:
>On 8 May 1996 01:37:40 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU wrote:
>[snip]
>
>an accident. there was no premeditation there.
Well, DUH...you're making a conscious decision NOT to bring back
Neelix and Tuvok. That's pretty damn premeditated.
Al Ruffinelli
On 8 May 1996 22:07:17 GMT, jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
[snip]
> once janeway knew that tuvok and neelix could be restored, her
> non action would have at that point resulted in the death of tuvok
> and neelix. so either way she decides, based off her decision
> she will be responsible for somebodies death.
I'd like to see you prove that. Tuvok and Neelix were not dead, and they
were not going anywhere.
------------------------------------------------------------
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net>
http://www.netgate.net/~alvaro
ftp://ng.netgate.net/u/alvaro
------------------------------------------------------------
Al Ruffinelli
On 9 May 1996 05:52:37 GMT, gwan...@u.washington.edu wrote:
[snip]
> >There was no reasonable argument presented for what Janeway did. It
> >was cold-blooded murder.
> And so was leaving Tuvix as is.
WHY?
that's absurd. again: Tuvok and Neelix were not dead or dying. they could
have been separated any moment after they found how to do it.
Al Ruffinelli
On 8 May 1996 21:37:43 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU wrote:
[snip]
> >> If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
> >
> >well, DUH! "not splitting tuvix" is not murder because tuvix came to be as
> >an accident. there was no premeditation there.
> Why is there no premeditation? If Janeway had decided the other way, she
> obviously would have thought long and hard before deciding not to split Tuvix.
> I'd call that premeditation.
ok, let's rephrase. if Janeway hadn't split Tuvix (it wasn't her
decision, anyway), who would have been murdered?
Al Ruffinelli
On 9 May 1996 05:59:46 GMT, gwan...@u.washington.edu wrote:
[snip]
> Well, DUH...you're making a conscious decision NOT to bring back
> Neelix and Tuvok. That's pretty damn premeditated.
bring back from where? they didn't go anywhere. they were right there, in
Tuvix. they = their memories, personalities, emotions, etc.
Tuvix was not just a third person. he was Tuvok and Neelix, and more.
Al Ruffinelli
> any different than killing them?
save them from WHAT?
> once janeway knew that tuvok and neelix could be restored, her
> non action would have at that point resulted in the death of tuvok
> and neelix. so either way she decides, based off her decision
> she will be responsible for somebodies death.
oh? explain how they would have died.
you'll have to admit that either 1.they were already dead, or 2.they were
not dying.
1.if they were already dead, why not accept it? because you can revive
them? ah, but only if you kill a sentient being. thanks but no thanks.
2.if they were not dying, why the rush in killing Tuvix?
Todd Horowitz
In article <4mrbun$n...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>If you think about it that's what made TOS _and_ TNG so enjoyable
>(more apparent in TNG). The characters had memory just like the
>viewers, so they grew as individuals and as a group.
Excuse me? When did ANYONE in TOS ever show evidence of a memory? TOS
was the ultimate "strip this for syndication, you don't have to know what
happened last week or last year, everything has to be back to normal next week"
standard format TV show.
Todd
>
>Joe
>
Junsok Yang
In article <4mt334$h...@agate.berkeley.edu>, to...@garnet.berkeley.edu
says...
In terms of events, yes. The only show that comes to mind which you
really needed to know was "Errand of Mercy" for the Organian Peace Treaty
for the latter Klingon episodes and "Mudd's Women" for the character of Mudd
later in "I, Mudd"
To criticize TOS for not being "continuous" is, IMO, unfair, since that
was the standard operating procedure for most TV hourlong dramas at the
time, and the networks insisted on it being discrete (for fear of losing
ratings.) It wasn't until the 80s in Dallas, Hill Street Blues, etc. that
this mindset changed. (Excepting soap operas, of course.)
On the other hand, if you look at how the characters interact throughout
the three years, you will see the relationship grow and develop, which IMO
is more important than having the characters refer back to trivial incidents
which happened three years ago. :)
--
****************************************************************
"The idea seems to be that if people refuse to obey the
equations we have fit to their past behavior, we can pass laws to
make them do so." ... Robert Lucas & Thomas Sargent
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu)
Todd Komesu
In article <4mnjtn$5...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>, spev...@unity.ncsu.edu (Scott P
Evans) wrote:
> : Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
> : Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
> : captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
> : member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
> : for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
> : involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
> : tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
> : to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
> : integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
> : with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
>
> I thought that a good solution would have been to recreate the Thomas
> Riker phenomenom. Make two Tuvix's. Split one up, have the other one
> stay. Of course that would make things hard for Russ. BTW- don't you
> think he did a great job of incorporating both characters into one?
> --
>
>
Wouldn't you face the same moral dilemma if the second Tuvix wanted to live?
Todd
Marguerite Petersen
In article <3190d92e...@news.edgenet.net>,
Rae-Ann <r...@edgenet.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 07 May 1996 05:06:59 GMT, jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I wonder whether Tuvok and Neelix will retain memories of their life
>>as Tuvix, and perhaps some resentment or bitterness toward Janeway.
>>She has it coming.
>
>I was wondering that myself. Since Tuvix had both of their memories and
>*feelings*, I would imagine that each one would retain some of Tuvix's
>memories and feelings, especially since they were so strongly in favor of
>living.
Well, we don't KNOW that for a fact. We'd have to ask them and
that wasn't shown to us.
>Perhaps Neelix will feel a bit guilty about having survived at the expense
>of another. Tuvok would be a bit more logical, I would imagine, maybe to
>the point that he would have thought the captain made the wrong decision to
>separate the two. After all, one less mouth to feed and Tuvix was capable
>of filling both of the absented posts.
Well, you know if neither Neelix or Tuvok desires to be separate
individuals NOW, and actually *preferred* their lives as the joined
Tuvix, they could simply run them through the transporter again,
along with the orchid and recreate Tuvix. :-)
>I also wonder how the other crew members will feel about Janeway's
>decision. Could Janeway order their own demise as well if the situation
>warranted it? I'm sure Kes will feel some guilt because of her seeming
>influence on the final outcome. Will she notice some of Tuvix's
>characteristics in Neelix? How would she handle such a constant reminder?
Um, I believe that IF I were to be unwilling *melded* to another,
that I would feel extremely happy knowing that my Captain would do
her/his damndest to separate me from the *other*. Thank you very
much. :-)
>It sure makes you think though, doesn't it?
>Rae-Ann
Marg
>
--
Member PSEB Official Sonneteer JLP SoL
Charter Member WISE WOMEN OF THE WEB
pet...@peak.org http://www.orst.edu/~peterseb/marg.html
Scott
Sometimes you have to do what you think is right. Kirk did this alot
in TOS and I love the way Janeway is developing in this regard. And,
sorry to say it, the taking of another life is *sometimes* justified.
I peronally think Janeway did the right thing. And I do not think she
is a murderer at all. What did Spock say? "The needs of the many
[sometimes] outweigh the needs of the few."
Scott Maresh "All that I long for, all that I crave -
Am I master, am I slave?"
<-W-W-W--<<< Heart (Desire Walks On)
Scott
alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) wrote:
>ok, let's rephrase. if Janeway hadn't split Tuvix (it wasn't her
>decision, anyway), who would have been murdered?
Sure it was Janeway's decision. Who's would it have been? Janeway is
the Captain of Voyager and she was looking out for the best interests
of two of her crew members. Someone argued that Tuvok and Neelix were
still there, well Tuvix would still be there with Tuvok and Neelix.
The only thing that wouldn't be there was a damn orchid (they never
proved this orchid was sentient either).
Robert Hubby
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
: The parellels between "Tuvik" and TOS "The City on the Edge of Forever"
: where Kirk "let" Edith Keeler die has already been noted a half dozen times.
: Also, I would like to point out the parellel between "Tuvik" and TOS "The
: Conscience of the King" where the villain had previously sacrificed half of
: the population under his charge to save the other half when the food supply
: unexpectedly ran out.
: He was vilified for three reasons: He killed half the population;
: appearently the choice was made randomly and the people were not given a
: choice whether to sacrifice themselves for others; AND there was an
: *UNSCHEDULED* supply ship nearby which would have made the killings
: unnecessary *had he known about it.*
: Sometimes I get disturbed by this episode because, as the villain himself
: (Koridian, I believe) said in the episode, had there NOT been that
: unscheduled supply ship, he just as might have been treated as a hero.
He was called Kodos the Executioner. I think Caridian was his Stage Name...
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
"My father once said to me, Son, one day, a man is going to walk up
to you and show you a brand new deck of cards, on which the seal has
not yet been broken. He will bet you that he can make the Jack of
Spades jump out of the deck and spit cider in your ear. Do not bet
this man, or as sure as you are standing there, you will wind up
with an earful of cider!" - Sky Masterson
*** Doctor Who airs on Tuesday, May 14th, 8PM ET/PT on FOX! ***
Robert Hubby
G. Micha Giacometti (gmg...@copland.udel.edu) wrote:
: From watching the episode again, did you notice that the only way Janeway
: could proceed with the separation was is she was cold-hearted? I could
: see the pain in her face during and after the procedure. I think they
: could have gotten Neelix and Tuvok back without killing Tuvix, but I
: don't think that TPTB wanted to pay another actor.
Hmn...what does TPTB stand for? My guess: Those Paramount Tightwad B------s!
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
*** Doctor Who airs on Tuesday, May 14th, 8PM ET/PT on FOX! ***
"We come in peace (Shoot to kill, Shoot to kill, shoot to kill!)
We come in peace (Shoot to kill, Shoot to kill, men!)"
- "Voice" of Kirk in "Star Trekking"
Robert Hubby
James Grady Ward (jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: in theory i think they are supposed to still take the oath, not sure
: if any significance is placed on though.
Just ask Jack "The Dripper" Kevorkian...
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
*** Doctor Who airs on Tuesday, May 14th, 8PM ET/PT on FOX! ***
"They couldn't hit an ELEPHANT at this dist..." - Famous last words of
John Sedgwick at the battle of Spotsylvania court house, Civil War.
Robert Hubby
Tony Warmuth (tx...@po.CWRU.Edu) wrote:
: One other minor nit: Why didn't the plants materialize on the bio
: bed with Neelix and Tuvok at the end. After all wasn't that
: incorporated into Tuvix too? Or is the plant DNA still in Neelix
: and Tuvok?
If so, then Tuvok and Neelix had better use the transporter solo from now
on, or they'll merge with anyone else who transports.
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
*** Doctor Who airs on Tuesday, May 14th, 8PM ET/PT on FOX! ***
"So Join in the Folk-song army...guitars are the weapons we bring...
to the fight against poverty, war and injustice...ready...aim...sing!"
- Tom Lehrer
Patti Papineau
On Tue, 07 May 1996 05:06:59 GMT, jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
I don't see it as the murder of one individual, Tuvok and Neelix
deserved to live as their own beings, separate, with their own lives.
Tuvix was robbing them of their individuality. I stick with Janeway,
she made the right decision.
>Janeway's murder of Tuvix -- the forcible segregation of Tuvok and
>Neelix -- was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
>captain perform. It brought to mind the episode of TNG in which a
>member of a unisex species started to develop female sexual feelings
>for Cmdr. Riker, only to be brutally "deprogrammed" back into
>involuntary androgeny, and the one in which an overzealous researcher
>tried to force Data, whom he did not recognize as a person, to submit
>to disassembly and experimentation. Aren't the uniqueness and
>integrity of the individual supposed to be sacred to Starfleet, even
>with "freaks"? What's next -- the execution of Thomas Riker?
>
>Janeway seemed to give undue weight to her own wishes, and those of
>certain members of the crew, to have Tuvok and Neelix back in their
>old forms. Well, fine, if they agree to it -- but they didn't! Tuvok
>and Neelix weren't killed, captured or imprisoned; they were simply
>merged into a single person. Bizarre, yes, but their memories,
>abilities, personality traits, and presumably their wills remained
>intact, albeit in blended form. This was not a case where poor old
>Data was possessed by some malign life force that wanted to occupy his
>body, and thus deserved to be evicted, even at the cost of its demise.
>In this case Tuvok and Neelix, through Tuvix, appeared to choose
>freely to remain together. (Maybe they/he got used to the intimacy
>and enhanced vitality. Ask Dax how she would like to be separated
>into her components!) At any rate, the opinion of Tuvix on the matter
>was certainly entitled to trump the views of Janeway, Kes, et al.,
>regardless of their fears that the original Tuvok and Neelix had
>somehow gotten lost inside Tuvix. If *both* of these men truly
>yearned to be separated, wouldn't that desire have manifested itself
>throught Tuvix?
>
>I wonder whether Tuvok and Neelix will retain memories of their life
>as Tuvix, and perhaps some resentment or bitterness toward Janeway.
>She has it coming.
>
>Joe Ramirez
>
Mike Pelletier
>each episode exists in a void (no pun intended) with no little
>connection to past or future (except for the occasional annoying one
>like were you have to put up with a weak villain like the Kazon over
>and over).
> [...]
>If you think about it that's what made TOS _and_ TNG so enjoyable
>(more apparent in TNG). The characters had memory just like the
>viewers, so they grew as individuals and as a group.
Yeah, I can see that -- it's almost as if they're trying to make each
episode a self-contained little capsule, where everything's back to
square one at the end. A total-of-nothing box, so to speak. Maybe so
they can avoid the "Sliders" problem and show the eps in any order.
What happens after a couple of years at warp 6.6 or higher? Will they
finally move out of Kazon territory and start stepping on someone else's
toes?
I hope they don't carry on this total-of-nothing tradition for too long.
-Mike Pelletier.
Magine
jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu (James Grady Ward) wrote:
<snip>
>
>is not acting to save someone when you can
>any different than killing them?
>
>once janeway knew that tuvok and neelix could be restored, her
>non action would have at that point resulted in the death of tuvok
>and neelix. so either way she decides, based off her decision
>she will be responsible for somebodies death.
According to that principle, if you don't force someone to donate
their two kidneys to save two people who each need a kidney, you will
be "murdering" the two who need the organs. It doesn't matter that
you'll be killing one because you'll be saving two, etc. Horrible.
-Magine
ps...@terminus.com
Al Ruffinelli wrote:
> > once janeway knew that tuvok and neelix could be restored, her
> > non action would have at that point resulted in the death of tuvok
> > and neelix. so either way she decides, based off her decision
> > she will be responsible for somebodies death.
>
> 1.if they were already dead, why not accept it? because you can revive
> them? ah, but only if you kill a sentient being. thanks but no thanks.
They were not dead. They were both alive sharing one body and one
personality. Tuvix wanted to be a security officer and also wanted to be the
cook. All Janeway did was split one body into two parts, kind of like
separating siamese twins.
> 2.if they were not dying, why the rush in killing Tuvix?
Tuvok and Neelix had a body and personality before Tuvix did. A way was
found to restore them. Therefore, Tuvok and Neelix have the right to live.
*****************
* Nowhere Man *
* Mondays at 9 *
* after Voyager *
*****************
Jeff Schwartz
I keep seeing these comments about how the crew reacted to Tuvix's
demand to live but everyone seems to have overlooked the obvious. The
crew liked Tuvix but agreed that Tuvok and Neelix should be separated.
The doctor refused to perform the separation not because he agreed or
disagreed but because his programming prevented it. There are limits
to the moral capacities of a hologram.
>==========Al Ruffinelli, 5/7/96==========
>
>On Tue, 07 May 1996 06:55:22 GMT, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca wrote:
>> jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
>
>> >... was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
>> >captain perform.
>
>> Good post, Joe, I agree completely. They blew it big time, unless her
>> behaviour is going to be explained next episode (which wouldn't excuse
>> the crew, who should have mutinied at her barbarous orders).
>
>> Joe
>
>me three. it looked like it could have been a good episode until that
>part, then it sank faster than the Titanic.
>
>we heard some arguments from both sides, but no explanation for
>janeway's
>decision or the crew's inaction. no response to tuvix's
argument, either.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net>
>http://www.netgate.net/~alvaro
>ftp://ng.netgate.net/u/alvaro
>------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. Schwartz jeff.s...@SanDiegoCA.ATTGIS.COM
NCR Corporation Global Partner Labs
17095 Via del Campo ms 9853 San Diego, CA 92127
(619) 485-2052 VoicePlus 440-2052
===============================================================
Morning would be fine if only it would come later in the day.
GO REDWINGS
Rilla Hoffman
On 8 May 1996 01:37:40 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU wrote:
> If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
It is murder. A person is as responsible for the consequences of their
inaction as they are for the consequences of their actions.
This is one of the best signs that Voyager is coming into its own as a
series. The fact that it can create so much controversy amongst its
viewers. The fulfilling of its promise to be a darker more desperate show
than TNG - they're on their own - Janeway is the ultimate responsibility
for the Federation. Sure she can make mistakes, she could even abuse that
power. I don't think she did in this case, and I have too much respect for
the character to think she ever will.
Janeway has made this decision now. It would be interesting to see how
Tuvok, Neelix and the other characters deal with it, but I don't suppose
we will.
Incidentally, other Trek episodes have dealt with similar decisions.
Janeway's choice was certainly more moral than Worf's letting the Romulan
die in [what episode?] and as moral as Kirk's letting Edith Keeler die in
City on the Edge of Forever. (NOTE: I am sticking by my original premise
that letting someone die, when you have the means to save them, is as bad
as killing them.)
Al Ruffinelli
On Thu, 09 May 1996 17:50:43 GMT, smo...@wolfe.net wrote:
[snip]
> Sure it was Janeway's decision. Who's would it have been? Janeway is
> the Captain of Voyager and she was looking out for the best interests
> of two of her crew members. Someone argued that Tuvok and Neelix were
> still there, well Tuvix would still be there with Tuvok and Neelix.
> The only thing that wouldn't be there was a damn orchid (they never
> proved this orchid was sentient either).
wrong. Tuvix developed his own identity, which can't be split.
this is not arithmetic. Tuvix was not *only* Tuvok + Neelix, he became more
than the sum of his parts.
Bryan Derksen
R. Tang (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
: >There was no reasonable argument presented for what Janeway did. It
: >was cold-blooded murder.
: And so was leaving Tuvix as is.
I just don't get this. Tuvok and Neelix stopped existing as entities at
the moment of the transporter accident. That sounds to me like the
accident killed them. How can someone murder people by refusing to bring
them back to life? The refusal does absolutely nothing to change their
status, it doesn't make them 'more dead' than they were already.
--
Bryan Derksen <bder...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>, Technomage-in-training
http://www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/ (PGP key available)
"Just once, I'd like to meet an alien menace that WASN'T immune to
bullets." - Brigadier A.G. Lethbridge-Stewart, "Dr. Who"
James L. Bourassa
R. Tang (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: In article <4moitn$s...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
: Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
: >There was no reasonable argument presented for what Janeway did. It
: >was cold-blooded murder.
: And so was leaving Tuvix as is.
: So?
And just how is leaving Tuvix " as is " cold blooded murder? Please
give a possible definition of murder that fits the circumstances.
Last time I checked, murder was when you deliberately killed a
living being. Tuvok and Neelix were not alive. If you think they
were, how were they alive? They weren't physically present, conscious
or even in limbo. All that existed was the *potential* to bring them
back to life, not life. There was no evidence that they were
alive inside Tuvix screaming " Help me! Bring me back to life! "
The crew found a way to resurrect two people with TrekMagic. To
do so, they needed to execute an innocent third party. In what
way is *not* re-animating someone murder? Re-animating someone
may be a good thing, but that doesn't override the bad thing of
killing a current living being who objects.
This is not to mention the fact that Janeway barely even made the
*attempt* to reason with Tuvix to bring him around to her way
of thinking. One scene he announces he wants to live. Almost next,
she's in the room telling him that she'll decide his fate. Maybe
she should have tried actually talking to him and get him to see
things her way. Or saw if there was some way to allow all three
characters to co-exist ( since the laws of conservation were pretty clearly
not in effect this episode ). There was no emergency. No time
pressure mentioned. There are many lines of reasoning and persuasion
she could have used outside coercion. But it was " I'm the Captain,
I'm the one who decides who lives and who dies and who gets brought
back to life. "
------------------------------------------------------------
James Bourassa
6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
James L. Bourassa
R. Tang (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: >If splitting Tuvix is murder, why is *not* splitting Tuvix not murder?
: Um...um...umm...just..just..BECAUSE.
Your eloquence is touching. I can tell you must have spent a
whole millisecond contemplating the issue.
Uh, maybe it's because *not* splitting Tuvix doesn't meet the
definition of the word murder? Maybe because not bringing someone
back to life isn't murder? Maybe because there was noone around to
be murdered when Tuvix was not split? Just splitting hairs, hmm?
Funny me, I always thought to murder a person they had to be
alive and in existence. Apparently you can " murder " someone by
not resurrecting them after they ceased to exist. Care to give
a definition of the word murder that fits the above?
I'll remember that. If we ever have the means to bring the
dead back to life, we'll apparently be " murdering " anyone who
we don't bring back to life.
------------------------------------------------------------
James Bourassa
6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
James Grady Ward
In article <4mrbun$n...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>Look how much controversy this episodes caused just for the viewers -
>can you imagine if you were living there? What if Tuvix was your
>friend? - he seemed quite capable and popular; even Kes was near
>accepting Neelix' death and was getting the hots for Tuvix. The
umm just what did you watch, if i remember right kes was in almost
in tears when tuvix asked her to talk to janeway because she was not
dealing with it.
>
>If you think about it that's what made TOS _and_ TNG so enjoyable
>(more apparent in TNG). The characters had memory just like the
>viewers, so they grew as individuals and as a group.
umm besides that one two part episode and the first four or five
do you think anyone but a serious trekie could organize the TOS
episodes by how they were aired.....
--
buckysan: the phantom teaching fellow
annapuma and unapumma in 96'
" the realization that the pursuit of knowledge can be an
end unto itself is the beginning and highest form of wisdom"
James Grady Ward
In article <4msla9$t...@ss.netgate.net>, alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) writes:
>On 8 May 1996 22:07:17 GMT, jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
>> once janeway knew that tuvok and neelix could be restored, her
>> non action would have at that point resulted in the death of tuvok
>> and neelix. so either way she decides, based off her decision
>> she will be responsible for somebodies death.
>
>oh? explain how they would have died.
>
>you'll have to admit that either 1.they were already dead, or 2.they were
>not dying.
>
>1.if they were already dead, why not accept it? because you can revive
>them? ah, but only if you kill a sentient being. thanks but no thanks.
>
>2.if they were not dying, why the rush in killing Tuvix?
>
ok would you like to have been half of a combined entiy such as
this and what little of your own personality is left know that
you supposed friends decided to not restore you to your normal
self.
or would you have blissful let your personality be submerged into
the merged personality. the combined personality was definitely
neither tuvok or neelix you know. i for one would like to think
that my friends would care enough to restore me if a process exists
that can do so with out screwing with time( that whole story line
makes any sane story afterwards meaningless anyway why are people just
now realizing it i wonder)
and btw watch the third movie, spock was dead and even clearly dead
no amount of semantics or veiw points can change that detail. did that
stop kirk from breaking several orders, stealing a starship and nearly
staring a war with the klingons? yet you complain at janeway for
just undoing a simple transporter acident to restore two memebers of her
crew.
James Grady Ward
In article <4ms33q$s...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, bder...@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca (Bryan Derksen) writes:
>The event which destroyed Tuvok and Neelix in the first place, and
>incidentally created Tuvix at the same time, was without premeditation. it
>was an accident, and accidents happen.
if this is the case then why did the crew even try to split them
and not just say oh well got a new crew member now. you decided to
treat them as dead, the crew did not. this is a relavant point.
>
>Tuvok and Neelix's lives terminated at the time when the accident
>occurred. If Janeway later decided not to split Tuvix then they would have
>simply stayed dead, not somehow become 'officially dead' at that very
>moment.
>
again the crew did not consider them dead, so if janeway had not
done anything at that moment they would have really become dead
in the eyes of the crew and they would be dead as the result of
janeways actions.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mskgc$t...@ss.netgate.net>, alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) writes:
>On 8 May 1996 22:07:17 GMT, jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
>[snip]
>> once janeway knew that tuvok and neelix could be restored, her
>> non action would have at that point resulted in the death of tuvok
>> and neelix. so either way she decides, based off her decision
>> she will be responsible for somebodies death.
>
>I'd like to see you prove that. Tuvok and Neelix were not dead, and they
>were not going anywhere.
>
i can prove beyond any doubt that spock was dead. or do you claim
that the third movie's basic premise is immoral?
and you definitely can not say that spock was more clearly dead
than tuvok and neelix.
Bryan Derksen
R. Tang (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: And by leaving Tuvix as is, she is, in effect, continuously
: murdering Tuvok and Neelix. Equally despicable.
I don't understand *how* she is murdering them. What, exactly, is the
difference between the status of Tuvok and Neelix when a method of
separating Tuvix _doesn't_ exist, versus the status of Tuvok and Neelix
when a method exists but is not used?
Basically, how would Janeway's inaction make them any more 'dead' than
they were to begin with?
--
Bryan Derksen <bder...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>, Technomage-in-training
http://www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/ (PGP key available)
"Doesn't anyone see that this is wrong?"
- Tuvix, on the order of his execution by Captain Janeway.
Bryan Derksen
Patti Papineau (papi...@access.digex.net) wrote:
: I don't see it as the murder of one individual,
As a result of Janeway's deliberate action of splitting Tuvix, the
unique combination of memories and personality traits that made up Tuvix
no longer existed as a funtional entity. Sounds like death to me.
: Tuvok and Neelix
: deserved to live as their own beings, separate, with their own lives.
Yes. A pity they died in an accident like that, but then, accidents
happen.
: Tuvix was robbing them of their individuality.
I'd like to know how Tuvix did that, given that he didn't even exist when
the accident that ended Tuvok and Neelix's individuality happened. How was
he responsible for it?
James Grady Ward
In article <tkomesu-0905...@206.138.118.102>, tko...@loop.com (Todd Komesu) writes:
>>
>Wouldn't you face the same moral dilemma if the second Tuvix wanted to live?
>
then just keep cloning him until one of them agrees:)
James Grady Ward
In article <319181c...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, mag...@ix.netcom.com (Magine) writes:
>jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu (James Grady Ward) wrote:
>
><snip>
>>
>>is not acting to save someone when you can
>>any different than killing them?
>>
>>once janeway knew that tuvok and neelix could be restored, her
>>non action would have at that point resulted in the death of tuvok
>>and neelix. so either way she decides, based off her decision
>>she will be responsible for somebodies death.
>
>According to that principle, if you don't force someone to donate
>their two kidneys to save two people who each need a kidney, you will
>be "murdering" the two who need the organs. It doesn't matter that
>you'll be killing one because you'll be saving two, etc. Horrible.
>
you keep missing a point, my existance is not the cuase of these
two people having kidney problems( unless you claim i cut their
kidneys out or some such). any anology in which the person that
ends up dead is not connected by a direct causal link( i do not claim
it is intended only a causal link as in tuvix's existance was caused
by tuvok and neelix being merged) is not the same. all of these
transplant anologies keep bring in a third individual that has no
direct connection to the two that are dead or dying. draging an unconnected
individual into this would be wrong.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mu27n$r...@ss.netgate.net>, alv...@ng.netgate.net (Al Ruffinelli) writes:
>On Thu, 09 May 1996 17:50:43 GMT, smo...@wolfe.net wrote:
>[snip]
>> Sure it was Janeway's decision. Who's would it have been? Janeway is
>> the Captain of Voyager and she was looking out for the best interests
>> of two of her crew members. Someone argued that Tuvok and Neelix were
>> still there, well Tuvix would still be there with Tuvok and Neelix.
>> The only thing that wouldn't be there was a damn orchid (they never
>> proved this orchid was sentient either).
>
>wrong. Tuvix developed his own identity, which can't be split.
>
>this is not arithmetic. Tuvix was not *only* Tuvok + Neelix, he became more
>than the sum of his parts.
>
true his refusal to willing undergo the procedure was pointed out in
the show to be something that neither tuvok or neelix would have objected
to. which shows that their voices were not being heard in what tuvix
was saying. it also means that if tuvix really had all of tuvok and
neelix's memories he was willfully going against what he knew they
would have both willing done. so just how "innocent" really is tuvix?
James Grady Ward
In article <3190fa00...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, mag...@ix.netcom.com (Magine) writes:
>Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) wrote:
>
>>jra...@ibm.net (Joe Ramirez) wrote:
>>
>>>... was possibly the most immoral act I've ever seen a Starfleet
>>>captain perform.
>>
>>Good post, Joe, I agree completely. They blew it big time, unless her
>>behaviour is going to be explained next episode (which wouldn't excuse
>>the crew, who should have mutinied at her barbarous orders).
>>
>>Joe
>
>Unfortunately, I think we're supposed to believe that Janeway made a
>tough but necessary decision. I think she made a tough but incorrect
>decision.
>
as long as you realize she had to make a decision and could not
just ignore the situation i have no problem with that.
James Grady Ward
In article <3190fe85...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, mag...@ix.netcom.com (Magine) writes:
>to...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Todd Horowitz) wrote:
>
><snip>
>> The reason most of the crew stood by is because they did not want to
>>have to make this choiice, and they were relieved that Janeway was there to
>>make it for them.
>>
>
>Yes. And the decision was made not on the basis of morality, but on
>the basis of what everyone (other than Tuvix) would feel most
>comfortable with.
>
no janeway considered what she knew that tuvok and neelix would have
wanted. as she said either tuvok or neelix would have given their
lives to save another crew member. therefore why did tuvix resist
if he had all of the memories and was a composite of the two an action
that both would have done without thinking. either tuvix had put no
thought into this or he was willingly ignoreing what he must have know
about his "parents" behavior patterns.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mu9ql$m...@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu>, 6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (James L. Bourassa) writes:
> Uh, maybe it's because *not* splitting Tuvix doesn't meet the
>definition of the word murder? Maybe because not bringing someone
>back to life isn't murder? Maybe because there was noone around to
>be murdered when Tuvix was not split? Just splitting hairs, hmm?
in middle of surgery a patients heart stops, they are dead. if
the doctor does not try to revive him just how many seconds do you
think it would be until the doctor has charges filed against him.
when you know you can save a life and do not try how is that
different morally from killing. perhaps legally there is a
difference, but that does mean there is a difference morally.