WHY is tuvok Black
George Nock
its in the script
Anthony B. Gilpin
George Nock wrote:
>
> its in the script
Actually, it wasn't. As I understand it, Tuvok was supposed to be a "conventional"
Vulcan, and was supposed to be played by an older actor.
So it's really much more basic:
Q:Why is Tuvok black?
A: Becasue the producers cast a black actor in the role. Evidently, *they* didn't have a
problem in casting a black actor to play a member of an imaginary race in a work of
fiction.
I have a question: Where was all this debate when Micahel Dorn was cast as the first
black actor to play a Klingon? In the history of "Star Trek," we've seen a lot more
Klingons than we have Vulcans, and before Dorn, they have all been played by white
actors, including David Wayne, Michael Ansara, William Schallert, Mark Lenard and
Christopher Lloyd.
I'm just curious, here. There seem to be a lot of people who take offense at the
idea of a black Vulcan. There wasn't as much uproar at the advent of black Klingons.
Why? They are equally fictional beings. What is the difference? (I know, I know, they
darkened the skin when white guys played Klingons. I've often imagined the casting
session for "Star Trek-The Next Generation"):
"Hey, I've got a great idea! Klingon's are swarthy, right? Why don't we cast a
dark-skinned actor to play the Klingon? We'll save a fortune in body make-up!"
Anthony Bruce Gilpin
Arthur Lipscomb
If people are going to get upset about a Black Vulcan because they are
clearly Black humans with pointed ears, then they should get upset about
White Vulcans since they are also clearly White humans with pointed
ears. It works both ways.
Arthur
Jackson West
Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
>
> I have a question: Where was all this debate when Micahel Dorn was cast as the first
> black actor to play a Klingon?
Anthony,
You will never get the idea that its not what color the actor is, its
the character.There was no uproar about Worf because he is playing the
role of a Klingon.There are no black or white Klingons, just Klingons and
the black and white actors are playing characters of a single race.Yes
they darken the skin of the white actors, thats so they fit the role of
Klingons, who are of one race.
However, when Tim Russ plays a Vulcan they(ST producers) are saying that
there are at least two races of Vulcan.
You seem to want to make an issue about race.If you think its because hes
black, then no one can change your mind I guess.
IF Vulcans were blue, and suddenly there is now a red one, there would
still be the same question, why.
Also, the problem is that there is too much of a coincedence that the
races would be the same as earth, whats next a Chinese Vulcan?
Jackson
Anthony B. Gilpin
> > > Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
> >
> > I have a question: Where was all this debate when Micahel Dorn was cast as the
first
> > black actor to play a Klingon?
>
> Anthony,
>
> You will never get the idea that its not what color the actor is, its
> the character.There was no uproar about Worf because he is playing the
> role of a Klingon.There are no black or white Klingons, just Klingons and
> the black and white actors are playing characters of a single race.Yes
> they darken the skin of the white actors, thats so they fit the role of
> Klingons, who are of one race.
> However, when Tim Russ plays a Vulcan they(ST producers) are saying that
> there are at least two races of Vulcan.
> You seem to want to make an issue about race.If you think its because hes
> black, then no one can change your mind I guess.
You have completely misinterpreted what I wrote. I object to the fact that others,
including yourself, are making an issue of race in regard to Tuvok.
I am of the opinion that race does not exist. This is an opinion that has found wide
acceptance in the scientific community. The concept of race consists of reading
significance into visible genetic traits that make no greater biological distinction
between individuals than genetic traits that cannot be seen, like blood type or an
allergy to dairy products. Race is a cultural, emotional, irrational construct; it
exists only because people insist on making a big deal of it.
You say there is only one race of Klingons? Let me tell you something: there is only
one
race of *humans*. We are all the same species, *homo sapiens*, and the difference
between the various colors of humans is as artificial as differences in the colors of
M&M's. Anyone who acknowledges how so-called racial distinctions happened on this
planet
should be able to understand how it can happen anywhere.
> IF Vulcans were blue, and suddenly there is now a red one, there would
> still be the same question, why.
> Also, the problem is that there is too much of a coincedence that the
> races would be the same as earth, whats next a Chinese Vulcan?
does bother you, and you don't know why, I cannot explain it to you because I have
no idea of how you think.
Anthony Bruce Gilpin
Anthony B. Gilpin
Anthony B. Gilpin
Walton wrote:
>
> MARTIN. CRAIG ANDREW <pd0...@phq1002.wapol.gov.au> wrote in article
> <4tbm48$h...@phq1002.wapol.gov.au>...> > because he has lots of menalin ?
> >
> >
> >
>
> I thought the word was milanone. The dictionary I'm using dosn't have
> either word. There was an episode of "Cosmic Slot" on HBO a few years that
> used the percentage of milanone per sq. cm. as a measurement of selection
> for removal from the earth by Aliens.
>
> RonK
Try this spelling: melanin.
Anthony B. Gilpin
I'm sorry about the duplicates of this message. It was not
intentional. I'm having hardware problems, and sometimes I don't know if
a message has been sent or the server is down.
James Grady Ward
In article <31F913...@pacbell.net>, "Anthony B. Gilpin" <agi...@pacbell.net> writes:
>> > > Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
> > IF Vulcans were blue, and suddenly there is now a red one, there would
> > still be the same question, why.
> > Also, the problem is that there is too much of a coincedence that the
> > races would be the same as earth, whats next a Chinese Vulcan?
been done. t'pring spocks wife in amok time. it is a show form tos
since obviously you have not seen it. well not sure if she is chinese
but i am certain she was asian of some type.
--
buckysan: the phantom teaching fellow
annapuma and unapumma in 96'
" the realization that the pursuit of knowledge can be an
end unto itself is the beginning and highest form of wisdom"
Walton
MARTIN. CRAIG ANDREW
Quinn MacDonald
> Also, the problem is that there is too much of a coincedence that the
> races would be the same as earth, whats next a Chinese Vulcan?
>
> Jackson
Sadly enough, at the end of Star Trek III, we do see a hairless chinese Vulcan
banging an ominous gong for Spock. Of course, he could be Japanese, but
it has been a while. Oh God, now I'm going to have to look it up just so
I know...
Another view is that there is not necessarily two Vulcan races ( white
and black, as it where ), but rather, one race with occasional pheonotypical
(sp?) differences. In Star trek: Dreadnought! ( a novel ), there was a
fair haired Vulcan, which was uncommon because Vulcans are all similar in
their physcial appearance. Perhaps Tuvok is something along the same
lines,
although this does seem like a little bit of a stretch. Regardless, Tim
Russ plays him so well that I don't notice he is 'black'.
No more aliens with things stuck to their foreheads!
--
Quinn MacDonald - eas...@ra.isisnet.com - comments welcome
Derek Cashman
On 28 Jul 1996, Quinn MacDonald wrote:
> Another view is that there is not necessarily two Vulcan races ( white
> and black, as it where ), but rather, one race with occasional pheonotypical
> (sp?) differences.
The same can be said of the human race. White and Black people are no
different underneath the skin (trust me, I've taken a course in gross
anatomy :-). The differences in skin color seen among humans is the
direct result of variations in the genetic makeup of people. If you look
at it on an evolutionary basis, you will notice that there are more
dark-skinned humans living near the equatorial nations (because dark skin
is a better defense against the intense sunlight at those latitudes). On
the same note, light-skinned (white) humans are found more frequently in
the higher latitudes (norway, sweden, northern europe). Even within the
European continent, one will notice that the spanish and italians have
darker skin than the northern european nations of great britain,
germany, france, etc,... So you can see that skin color is merely a
phenotypical difference based on variations in gene expression at various
latitudes on the planet earth. I would probably expect this to be quite
similar on other planets as well (for humanoid species, that is).
Perhaps Spock is a vulcan from the more northern latitudes, while Tuvok's
ancestors were from the equatorial zones.
__ ~~ ^ ^
/ \ / ~ )###)
\ / < ] (~~\ /
||= > / ~~~||
/ \ /====\ /~ ~\
~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\ /~~~~~~~~\
Derek Cashman (cas...@cs.odu.edu)
Anthony B. Gilpin
James Grady Ward wrote:
>
> In article <31F913...@pacbell.net>, "Anthony B. Gilpin" <agi...@pacbell.net> writes:
> >> > > Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
>
> > > IF Vulcans were blue, and suddenly there is now a red one, there would
> > > still be the same question, why.
> > > races would be the same as earth, whats next a Chinese Vulcan?
>
> since obviously you have not seen it. well not sure if she is chinese
> but i am certain she was asian of some type.
> --
> buckysan: the phantom teaching fellow
>
> annapuma and unapumma in 96'
>
> " the realization that the pursuit of knowledge can be an
> end unto itself is the beginning and highest form of wisdom"
Dear Mr. Ward:
In the future, please be more careful about editing messages for
replies. You atrtributed a quote to me that consisted of someone else's
words, which I had quoted in another article. The statement does not
reflect the way I think, and I would not care to have people think that
it does.
Thank you for your attention.
Anthony Bruce Gilpin
Jackson West
You're comments are totally missing the point.The actor was not being put
down because of race.Who cares what race the actor is, not me.But the
character being played is a Vulcan, previosly portayed only as white,
that what brings up the question, the difference.If an asian looked the
part and could play it fine, thats terrific.
You, like many others, hear the word race and go into a panic that
someone somewhere is being put down.Relax Ben.Its only those who have a
problem with race who cant discuss it in a calm manner.
Also, there was an episode of TNG, that explained why so many alien
races have two arms two legs, and so on.In this episode all variations
came from an original race.
Wether race is an issue is not the point.Different races exist wether
you choose to admit it or not.Theres nothing wrong with that.If Tuvok
were the first black Vulcan I would expect the characters to be curious
as to why.
Jackson
>And just WHAT would be wrong with an Asian Vulcan? Point is, who
> cares what race the actor OR character is. Anyway, this 'too much of a coincidence'
> thing is also a rather contrived argument. If you want to talk about
> 'evolutionary & physical coincidences', why do Vulcans, Klingons,
> Bajorans, Romulans & humans all have two arms, two legs, two feet, ten
> fingers, one nose, and one mouth? I don't see any of those discussions
> going on. But skin color, yeah, there's a real thing to pick on.
>
>
> Ben
> ye...@is2.nyu.edu
Fill in your name here
Jackson West (jw...@radix.net) wrote:
> Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
> [snip]
> races would be the same as earth, whats next a Chinese Vulcan?
And just WHAT would be wrong with an Asian Vulcan? As I recall,
there were a couple Vulcans in Star Trek III who did look Asian (but
that's subjective, I haven't seen the movie in two years). Point is, who
cares what race the actor OR character is. None of the characters do.
How many crewman do you see pointing at Tuvok in the hall saying "Look, a
black Vulcan!, I didn't know there were any of those!" None, because race
isn't an issue in Federation of the 24 century, especially when the race
issue at hand is skin color. Anyway, this 'too much of a coincidence'
thing is also a rather contrived argument. If you want to talk about
'evolutionary & physical coincidences', why do Vulcans, Klingons,
Bajorans, Romulans & humans all have two arms, two legs, two feet, ten
fingers, one nose, and one mouth? I don't see any of those discussions
going on. But skin color, yeah, there's a real thing to pick on.
Accept it, they hired a black actor for the role. It wasn't a
role specifically written for Tim Russ. As I recall, Tuvok was a role
written simply for an older actor. Tim Russ won the role, so be it.
Whether people like the way he plays a Vulcan or not is open to
discussion, but putting down the character because of his skin color is
just plain dumb.
Clifton W. Prescod, Jr.
Jackson,
I think that you both raised good points, but I would have to call your
observation about the Vulcans originally looking white questionable. It
was stated many times that Vulcans (and therefore Romulans/Rihannsu) had a
greenish tinge due to the copper content of their blood. So there never
have been any white Vulcans (unless they were albino). Second since there
is some genetic compatibility between Vulcans and humans, it would make
sense to also think that some similarities in the ways that the melanin in
the skins of boths groups would react. Considering the great heat and
sunlight of 40 Eridani (Vulcan) it would have made more sense to have the
Vulcans being darker (Polynesian or Filipino actors would have made better
choices). The other thing to think about was the time period in which the
original show aired. How many actors who weren't white got work as extras
in shows such as Trek? Considering the original Klingon makeup, it would
have been easier to hire latinos and middle easterns to portray the
characters and use less makeup to darken the skin. But this was the 60's
not the 80's. If Star Trek were being created for the first time in the
80's it is very likely that the Vulcans would not have been cast using
primarily white actors, but more like the Klingons as they are portrayed
today (many more non-white or at least olive complexioned folks). This
last part is also a good reason as to why the previously "white" vulcans
existed, cost of makeup and attention to scientific detail.
You are absolutely right about Tim Russ as was as the original poster. He
was simply the actor who won the role. I, too, was expecting a more
"senior" character than Tuvok's sub-100 years. I would say, though, they
he has done a good job at showing us another major Vulcan character (but
the woman who played his wife was off, as was that former soap opera kid
who played the Vulcanoid girl in the TNG epsiode during the first season).
I just hope the stories get better. I like the premise, although I think
they should figure out a way to get the ship home inside of the next season
and have Janeway and company actively patrol the Gamma Quadrant.
Jackson West <jw...@radix.net> wrote in article
<31FEDD...@radix.net>...
> You're comments are totally missing the point.The actor was not being put
> down because of race.Who cares what race the actor is, not me.But the
> character being played is a Vulcan, previosly portayed only as white,
> that what brings up the question, the difference.If an asian looked the
> part and could play it fine, thats terrific.
> You, like many others, hear the word race and go into a panic that
> someone somewhere is being put down.Relax Ben.Its only those who have a
> problem with race who cant discuss it in a calm manner.
> Also, there was an episode of TNG, that explained why so many alien
> races have two arms two legs, and so on.In this episode all variations
> came from an original race.
> Wether race is an issue is not the point.Different races exist wether
> you choose to admit it or not.Theres nothing wrong with that.If Tuvok
> were the first black Vulcan I would expect the characters to be curious
> as to why.
>
>
> Jackson
>
> >And just WHAT would be wrong with an Asian Vulcan? Point is, who
> > cares what race the actor OR character is. Anyway, this 'too much of a
coincidence'
> > thing is also a rather contrived argument. If you want to talk about
> > 'evolutionary & physical coincidences', why do Vulcans, Klingons,
> > Bajorans, Romulans & humans all have two arms, two legs, two feet, ten
> > fingers, one nose, and one mouth? I don't see any of those discussions
> > going on. But skin color, yeah, there's a real thing to pick on.
> >
> >
> > Ben
> > ye...@is2.nyu.edu
>
KnuckleHead
"Anthony B. Gilpin" <agi...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> > > Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
> > >
.There are no black or white Klingons, just Klingons and
> > the black and white actors are playing characters of a single race.Yes
> > they darken the skin of the white actors, thats so they fit the role of
> > Klingons, who are of one race.
Wrong! Some Klingon's are "white". Examples are Admiral Krag from ST Undiscovered Country and Worf's x-wife (forgot name). So yes Klingons come in various shades of tan/brown.
Bill Bickel
If Worf is "black", because he's playd by a black actor, then his
biological brother must be white, because he's played by a white actor.
And you thought his family was scandalized BEFORE...
Bill Bickel
George Nock
Professor
pra...@netside.net (KnuckleHead) wrote:
>"Anthony B. Gilpin" <agi...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>> > > Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
>> > >
>.There are no black or white Klingons, just Klingons and
>> > the black and white actors are playing characters of a single race.Yes
>> > they darken the skin of the white actors, thats so they fit the role of
>> > Klingons, who are of one race.
>
lingons come in various shades of tan/brown.
Worf's wife, Kehleyr(sp?) wasn't actually a white klingon, she was half
human. However, you forgot to include that albino Klingon from the DS9
episode with Kor, Kang and Koloth.
--
Prof.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There is nothing as stupid as an educated man if you get him off the |
subject he was educated in!" |
-Will Rogers Jr. |
|
"Everybody is ignorant, only of different subjects!" |
-Will Rogers Jr. |
|
"Don't worship me, I sink when I try to walk on water!" |
- Tom Good m...@sisna.com |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GeneK
KnuckleHead wrote:
>
> Wrong! Some Klingon's are "white". Examples are Admiral Krag from ST > Undiscovered Country and Worf's x-wife (forgot name). So yes Klingons >
But on the other hand, there's never been anything onscreen to indicate
that these different shadings mean anything to the Klingons the way
color matters to us 20th century humans. So either the Klingons are of
one "race" and the shadings are just variations within that race, or
they just don't care about color.
Gene
Curt Bess
Correct, You never hear the ST-show talking about the black humans or the
white humans!!!!!!!
George Nock <GNOC...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<4vjg1a$7...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> pra...@netside.net (KnuckleHead) wrote:
>
> >"Anthony B. Gilpin" <agi...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >>> > > Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
> >> > >
> >.There are no black or white Klingons, just Klingons and
> >> > the black and white actors are playing characters of a single
race.Yes
> >> > they darken the skin of the white actors, thats so they fit the role
of
> >> > Klingons, who are of one race.
>
> >Wrong! Some Klingon's are "white". Examples are Admiral Krag from ST
Undiscovered Country and Worf's x-wife (forgot name). So yes Klingons come
in various shades of tan/brown.
>
BRITATHRT
Let's get REAL Worf is black because the BEST actor for the part is
black!!
Bri T'Athrt
Curt Bess
I love the way people take a show about people uniting and turn it into a
race thing. Grow up!
Richard Dietlein
GeneK wrote:
>
> KnuckleHead wrote:
> >
> > Wrong! Some Klingon's are "white". Examples are Admiral Krag from ST
> Undiscovered Country and Worf's x-wife (forgot name). So yes Klingons >
> come in various shades of tan/brown.
>
> that these different shadings mean anything to the Klingons the way
> color matters to us 20th century humans. So either the Klingons are of
> one "race" and the shadings are just variations within that race, or
> they just don't care about color.
>
> Gene
WORF IS BLACK BECAUSE THE ACTOR IS BLACK. And who cares, anyway?
---Karen---
GeneK
Richard Dietlein wrote:
>
> WORF IS BLACK BECAUSE THE ACTOR IS BLACK. And who cares, anyway?
>
Well said. Another non-issue fianlly put to rest (I hope).
Gene
Ramiro Fernandez
Bill Bickel <bbi...@cris.com> wrote:
>Bill Bickel
Not that it matters, but isn't Tony Todd (the actor who plays Worf's
brother) black? I thought I recognized him sans make-up as one of the
terrorists in "The Rock." But I could be wrong...
JC
Mattu
PLEASE, KILL THIS TREAD, IT'S GETTING ANNOYING.
Thank you.
Mattu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Take the cheese to Sickbay."
-B'Elanna Torres, Star Trek: Voyager, "Learning Curve"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"What did he ingest?" The Doctor to B'Elanna after
she brings a ill Paris to Sickbay
"Just a cup of Neelix's coffee." B'Elanna
"It's a miracle that he's still alive." Doctor
-Star Trek: Voyager, "Threshold"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As of August 25:
Assimilation begins in 88 days.
"On November 22, Resistance is Futile"
Voyager returns to "Basics" in 10 days.
J Robert Bonser
Ramiro Fernandez <a2o...@ids.net> wrote in article <4vqff9$4...@paperboy.ids.net>...
> Bill Bickel <bbi...@cris.com> wrote:
Why does it matter who's black and who's white. Why can't we be like the people in Trek and be above all this color crap?!?
kerr...@prolog.net
--
"Let's make sure history never forgets the name
'Enterprise'"
- Jean Luc Picard, Captain USS Enterprise
NCC-1701-D
Bill Bickel
J Robert Bonser wrote:
>
> Ramiro Fernandez <a2o...@ids.net> wrote in article
> <4vqff9$4...@paperboy.ids.net>...
> > Bill Bickel <bbi...@cris.com> wrote:
> >
> > >If Worf is "black", because he's playd by a black actor, then his
> > >biological brother must be white, because he's played by a white
> actor.
> >
> > >And you thought his family was scandalized BEFORE...
> >
> > >Bill Bickel
> >
> > Not that it matters, but isn't Tony Todd (the actor who plays Worf's
> > brother) black? I thought I recognized him sans make-up as one of
> the
> > terrorists in "The Rock." But I could be wrong...
> >
> > JC
> >
> Why does it matter who's black and who's white. Why can't we be like
> the people in Trek and be above all this color crap?!?
It's an academic exercise in which we pose and answer highly-rhetorical
questions while awaiting the start of the new season. You seem to be a
lot more bothered by it that you should be.
Bill
Ge...@right.com
If you want to be TECHNICAL we are all brown/black.
** SCIENCE FACT:
Depending on our MELATONAN
( The pigment that makes a certain color more dominate )
and where we live is our bodies way of blocking out the sun.
So there's no issue of where we live, or where the KLINGONS live
etc...
It's just their Klingons from different parts of different worlds
where their skin pigments adjust accordingly.
I.E. Black, Brown, White, What Ever.
Sheeeesh.
----- Just a another fan who's color blind.-----
Kim12378
Worf's ex-wife, K'Ehleyr was part human, therefore her human parent could
have been white. Besides, did you know that even black people of the
human race have different shades of skin?
Kim12378
Yes, Tony Todd is black. He played Kurn, Worf's brother on both TNG and
DS9. Also, on DS9 he played Jake Sisko in the future without Capt. Sisko.
I also think that they tried to keep Klingons generally black because it
added a darker mystery to the characters. Not saying black is bad white
is good, but instead saying these people are so strong and honor oriented
that you don't know what they'll do next. I don't think it really has to
do with color but more with the way the skin shades, for instance when a
black person blushes, as opposed to when someone of my color does. For
reference look at the background of this posting. What color is it?
White, right? Now make it a little lighter.........that's the color of my
skin......as pale as they come.
Just a thought I had that upon re-reading feels like it didn't really come
across clearly. The only reason I am posting it is the hope that someone
will be able to read Kim-ese.
Thanks
Kim
eleVate
kim1...@aol.com (Kim12378) wrote:
>Thanks
>Kim
The reason Worf is black is...........HE ISN'T!!!!!!!
Michael Dorn is Black. That doesn't make Worf Black, he's a Klingon.
Perhaps we shouldn't attempt to transfer our racial/racist categories
to other planets. The concept that having Black actors play Klingons
adds "a darker mystery" is rooted in the misconceptions of whites.
I'm darker, and it's no mystery.
Even if there are differences in skin tone between the Klingons in the
ST universe, that doesn't imply racial differentiation, and certainly
doesn't mandate any cultural, sociological, or behavioral distinction.
I am a slightly different shade than my sisters and parents, what does
that mean? NOTHING.
Maybe next time someone gets the urge to ask this question for the
thousandth time, they should try a "Why is Picard Bald" or "Why is
Data Gray" post instead.
eleVate
Ricky D Cash
Kim12378 wrote:
>
> Yes, Tony Todd is black. He played Kurn, Worf's brother on both TNG and
> DS9. Also, on DS9 he played Jake Sisko in the future without Capt. Sisko.
>
> I also think that they tried to keep Klingons generally black because it
> added a darker mystery to the characters. Not saying black is bad white
> is good, but instead saying these people are so strong and honor oriented
> that you don't know what they'll do next. I don't think it really has to
> do with color but more with the way the skin shades, for instance when a
> black person blushes, as opposed to when someone of my color does. For
> reference look at the background of this posting. What color is it?
> White, right? Now make it a little lighter.........that's the color of my
> skin......as pale as they come.
>
> Just a thought I had that upon re-reading feels like it didn't really come
> across clearly. The only reason I am posting it is the hope that someone
> will be able to read Kim-ese.
>
> Thanks
>
> Kim
I think the question should be what actor (white or black) could have
made Worf what Worf is. There have not been very many black actors
playing Klingons, espically in the beginning, but this has changed in
recent years. I think the producers were impressed with the voice and
stature of the actor, just as I have always been. If a white actor with
those same attributes would have auditioned for the part, that actor
would have won the role. It has always been to the credit of the Star
Trek production teams to choose fine actors and allow them to make their
roles unique.
Hanson
va...@bc.cybernex.net (eleVate) wrote:
>The reason Worf is black is...........HE ISN'T!!!!!!!
>
>Michael Dorn is Black. That doesn't make Worf Black, he's a Klingon.
>Perhaps we shouldn't attempt to transfer our racial/racist categories
>to other planets. The concept that having Black actors play Klingons
>adds "a darker mystery" is rooted in the misconceptions of whites.
>I'm darker, and it's no mystery.
There is no black or white issue with Klingons. They're all simply
Klingons. Robert O'Reilly portrays Gowron -- he's not black. Neither
were the actresses who portrayed Lursa and B'ator. In fact, John Tesh
was a Klingon in one episode. They all had similar skin tones. The
only requirement for Klingon actors (although it seems Paramount has
softened the rules on this) is that the actors be 6' or taller
(although Ron Canada is probably under that height requirement and
Gowron seems to be on the short side for a Klingon as well). There's
no need to interject your own views of race on a raceless society.
>Even if there are differences in skin tone between the Klingons in the
>ST universe, that doesn't imply racial differentiation, and certainly
>doesn't mandate any cultural, sociological, or behavioral distinction.
>I am a slightly different shade than my sisters and parents, what does
>that mean? NOTHING.
>Maybe next time someone gets the urge to ask this question for the
>thousandth time, they should try a "Why is Picard Bald" or "Why is
>Data Gray" post instead.
>
>eleVate
You should also ask yourself why this is so important to you. It's
the same mentality that produces "How could there be black Vulcans?"
threads.
Hanson
"Take your stinking paws off of me, you damn dirty ape!"
- George Taylor
Laurie M. Campbell
Ricky D Cash wrote:
>
> I think the question should be what actor (white or black) could have
> made Worf what Worf is. There have not been very many black actors
> playing Klingons, espically in the beginning, but this has changed in
> recent years. I think the producers were impressed with the voice and
> stature of the actor, just as I have always been. If a white actor with
> those same attributes would have auditioned for the part, that actor
> would have won the role. It has always been to the credit of the Star
> Trek production teams to choose fine actors and allow them to make their
> roles unique.
Bless you. And ditto for Tuvok.
Laurie
Ronda
kim1...@aol.com (Kim12378) wrote:
Here's a shot in the dark....because Michael Dorn is Black....just
kiddin'. Actually, the Klingons seem to have different breeds of
Klingon (3 if I remember right), so why not different colors.
Different color skinned Klingons could have developed for the same
reason they did on earth. After, a planet with a sun is a planet with
a sun.
R.R.
BRITATHRT
<For reference look at the background of this posting. What color is it?
<White, right? Now make it a little lighter.........that's the color of
my
<skin......as pale as they come.
(VBG) Bri T'athrt
H. McDaniel
va...@bc.cybernex.net (eleVate) writes:
>kim1...@aol.com (Kim12378) wrote:
>>Yes, Tony Todd is black. He played Kurn, Worf's brother on both TNG and
>>DS9. Also, on DS9 he played Jake Sisko in the future without Capt. Sisko.
>>I also think that they tried to keep Klingons generally black because it
>>added a darker mystery to the characters. Not saying black is bad white
>>is good, but instead saying these people are so strong and honor oriented
>>that you don't know what they'll do next. I don't think it really has to
>>do with color but more with the way the skin shades, for instance when a
>>black person blushes, as opposed to when someone of my color does. For
>>reference look at the background of this posting. What color is it?
>>White, right? Now make it a little lighter.........that's the color of my
>>skin......as pale as they come.
>>Just a thought I had that upon re-reading feels like it didn't really come
>>across clearly. The only reason I am posting it is the hope that someone
>>will be able to read Kim-ese.
>>Thanks
>>Kim
>The reason Worf is black is...........HE ISN'T!!!!!!!
>Michael Dorn is Black. That doesn't make Worf Black, he's a Klingon.
>Perhaps we shouldn't attempt to transfer our racial/racist categories
>to other planets. The concept that having Black actors play Klingons
>adds "a darker mystery" is rooted in the misconceptions of whites.
>I'm darker, and it's no mystery.
I think the trek folks got tired of having white guys put on motor
oil (and it looked just like uneven oil) in TOS as Klingons....
But I agree, plenty of darker skinned folks in the world who are
not black (and the reverse is also true.. light skinned folks who
*are* black.)
-McDaniel
Steve Silverwood
Also, it's not necessary for an actor to be black to play a Klingon.
John Tesh even played one once. As I recall, he was one of the
holographic Klingons used to celebrate Worf's rite of ascension or
whatever.
pra...@netside.net (KnuckleHead) wrote:
>"Anthony B. Gilpin" <agi...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> > > Anthony B. Gilpin wrote:
>> > >
>.There are no black or white Klingons, just Klingons and
>> > the black and white actors are playing characters of a single race.Yes
>> > they darken the skin of the white actors, thats so they fit the role of
>> > Klingons, who are of one race.
>Wrong! Some Klingon's are "white". Examples are Admiral Krag from ST Undiscovered Country and Worf's x-wife (forgot name). So yes Klingons come in various shades of tan/brown.
-- //Steve//
Steve Silverwood Toshiba America Information Systems
CompuServe: 76703,3035 Internet: kb6...@earthlink.net
America Online: KB6OJS Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~kb6ojs/
James Gasson
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, eleVate wrote:
> The reason Worf is black is...........HE ISN'T!!!!!!!
>
> Michael Dorn is Black. That doesn't make Worf Black, he's a Klingon.
> Perhaps we shouldn't attempt to transfer our racial/racist categories
> to other planets. The concept that having Black actors play Klingons
> adds "a darker mystery" is rooted in the misconceptions of whites.
> I'm darker, and it's no mystery.
>
> Even if there are differences in skin tone between the Klingons in the
> ST universe, that doesn't imply racial differentiation, and certainly
> doesn't mandate any cultural, sociological, or behavioral distinction.
> I am a slightly different shade than my sisters and parents, what does
> that mean? NOTHING.
>
> Maybe next time someone gets the urge to ask this question for the
> thousandth time, they should try a "Why is Picard Bald" or "Why is
> Data Gray" post instead.
>
>
> eleVate
Good point, why is Data grey? If his designer could create an
artificially intelligent mind, operating with positrons, of all things,
why wasn't it possible to give Data a half realistic skin colour?
(Assuming the designer was human, I think there was an episode about
them, but I can't remember it.)
-------------------------------------
The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle:
I can know where I am,
or where I'm going,
but not both.
James Gasson
jga...@hermes.otago.ac.nz
Bill Bickel
James Gasson wrote:
>
>why is Data grey? If his designer could create an
> artificially intelligent mind, operating with positrons, of all things,
> why wasn't it possible to give Data a half realistic skin colour?
I believe he mentioned somewhere along the way that Soong deliberately
gave him his odd coloring because he felt that an android that looked
entirely human would be too upsetting, or too threatening, for actual
humans.
A decision Spiner must have cursed for several hours every day.
Bill Bickel
Han Yu
As I remember, there was an interview with Spiner and he said he asked
exact same question to Gene and Gene responded "what makes you think your
(Data's) skin isn't better than humane?"
Besides, Data is golden not grey.
us...@host.com
> Besides, Data is golden not grey.
Isn't Data WHITE like a Borg?
Or maybe, i was watching the wrong show for seven years.
Wm. Mark Simmons
He shows up on my tv like a mime wearing sunblock but all episodic
references to his skin hue are "golden" or variations on such.
WMS
The Hermit
In article <5262r0$t...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>, y...@engr.mun.ca (Han Yu)
wrote:
>
>>>why is Data grey? If his designer could create an
>>> artificially intelligent mind, operating with positrons, of all
things,
>>> why wasn't it possible to give Data a half realistic skin colour?
>
>>I believe he mentioned somewhere along the way that Soong
deliberately
>>gave him his odd coloring because he felt that an android that
looked
>>entirely human would be too upsetting, or too threatening, for
actual
>>humans.
:::WHat about Lol? Data said he was able to give her "more realistic
:::skin and eye coloring"
>>A decision Spiner must have cursed for several hours every day.
>
>As I remember, there was an interview with Spiner and he said he
asked
>exact same question to Gene and Gene responded "what makes you think
your
>(Data's) skin isn't better than humane?"
>
Laurie M. Campbell
H. McDaniel wrote:
>
> I think the trek folks got tired of having white guys put on motor
> oil (and it looked just like uneven oil) in TOS as Klingons....
> But I agree, plenty of darker skinned folks in the world who are
> not black (and the reverse is also true.. light skinned folks who
> *are* black.)
are played by blacks and which by whites. Often you can't. For
example, Worf's son Alexander was played by Brian Bonsall, a blond
haired, blue eyed white boy previously seen on Family Ties. Still, I'm
sure there are many fans who think he was played by a black kid.
Laurie
HusbandNJ
I recall that Lore looked too human.
Data was intentially made to look non human since the close humaness
scared the settleres
us...@host.com
What the Hell are you guys talking about??
Joyce Harmon
In article <3266BB...@host.com>, us...@host.com says...
>
>What the Hell are you guys talking about??
You must be new around here -
Some time ago, there was a thread on "Why is Tuvok Black?" and people
argued back and forth about whether or not there would be black Vulcans.
Worf got thrown into the mix, and then the Data and Grey question came
up - it was originally a joke, playing off the other threads, but some
terminally non-humorous people took it seriously. And this is where we
stand today...
Joyce
Diabolique
Joyce-
"Terminally non-humorous people" ---> what a great phrase!!!! :)
There's A LOT of them on this newsgroup.
--
Diabolique
The House of Diabolique
http://www.concentric.net/~suave
"Those who love her, fear her."
A WATTS-WILLIAMS
I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
because the klingons are black, and a black actor requires less intense
make-up.
Christopher P. Allen
A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
Not only that, The other reason is because he was born that way!
chris allen
Art Scheel
I believe that that is an insult on Michael Dorn's part! I happen to think
that he is a good actor. If you are saying that they chose him because of
his race, then you are dead wrong. Paramount is popular because they
choose good actors not because they choose good actors' skin!
A WATTS-WILLIAMS <A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk> wrote in article
<55nfse$b...@columbia.acc.brad.ac.uk>...
> I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
> obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
> because the klingons are black, and a black actor requires less intense
> make-up.
>
>
--
Zarvox (known to humans as Artie)
Zar...@onebellevue.com
http://www.onebellevue.com/zarvox/ (this site will not be operational for
about 2 weeks!)
Merrick Baldelli
A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
>I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
>obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
>because the klingons are black, and a black actor requires less intense
>make-up.
Funny, I don't remember the actor that plays Gawron <sp> on being
black. or Key'lar, or Torres, or the Klingon Captain when Riker was
tranferred as an exchange office onboard the Klingon Bird of Prey (who
also played a Pakled in another episode), or his first officer (in the
same episode), or the Duras Sisters, or the half son of Duras, or the
former leader of the Klingon High Council....
It's all in the makeup....
Sorry -- blown out of the water here... Next....
__________
==\ /=======================================
===\ /====== Merrick Baldelli ================
====\ /======= merr...@america.net ============
=====\ /== http://www.america.net/~merrickb ======
======\/===========================================
Jacques Gauthier
Christopher P. Allen (Space...@juno.com) wrote:
: A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
: >I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
: >obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
: >because the klingons are black, and a black actor requires less intense
: >make-up.
: Not only that, The other reason is because he was born that way!
Why is the commander of DS9 black ? Why is Tuvok black ?
Why are Andorians blue ?
Why didn't they make Worf gay ? :-)
I should think Vulcans would be more likely to be black than white since their
planets is hotter than earth and it's brighter.
I'd like to see Worf fight a creature whose skin is like Velcroc. We would
have Klingon vs Cling-on.
Merete
gaut...@CAM.ORG (Jacques Gauthier) wrote:
>
>Why didn't they make Worf gay ? :-)
Because he is not a merry man!
Merete
shan...@pnx.com
On 20 Nov 1996 17:25:02 -0500, gaut...@CAM.ORG (Jacques Gauthier)
wrote:
>Christopher P. Allen (Space...@juno.com) wrote:
>: A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
>
>: >I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
>: >obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
>: >because the klingons are black, and a black actor requires less intense
>: >make-up.
>
There have been many white actors who played Klingons.
The casting people choose the best people for the part, regardless
of the color. I don't believe the Klingons are different colors. They
are all sort of brown. The white actors have to have dark makeup put
on, usually.
Vulcans are both black and white, and who knows what other races
that reflect those on Earth.
ck...@erinet.com
shan...@pnx.com wrote:
>On 20 Nov 1996 17:25:02 -0500, gaut...@CAM.ORG (Jacques Gauthier)
>wrote:
>>Christopher P. Allen (Space...@juno.com) wrote:
>>: A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
>>
>>: >I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
>>: >obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
>>: >because
> There have been many white actors who played Klingons.
>The casting people choose the best people for the part, regardless
>of the color.
Bingo! We have a winner! They chose Michael Dorn for the part
because, here it comes, folks, he was the BEST actor who
auditioned!!!! Hooray for good casting!!!
Dunbar
Chuck Smoot
This is still a stupid thread.
kaatj...@aol.com
Worf is not black you moron. The talented actor who portrays him is
black... the Klingon race is one race... they do not variate black or
white... they are all Klingon!
cc&ch
Hmmmm....Good point! Sort of like the HUMAN race as well, wouldn't you
say? After, a difference which makes no difference, is no difference!
Craig
Shylock
kaatj...@aol.com wrote:
>Worf is not black you moron. The talented actor who portrays him is
>black... the Klingon race is one race... they do not variate black or
>white... they are all Klingon!
Exactly! Some may appear lighter or darker but that is due to climate
on the homeworld. Much like here on earth blacks and whites are the
same (Homo sapiens sapiens), the only difference is the amount of skin
pigmment caused by geographical location of their ancestors. Humans
closer to the equator developed darker skin to protect against the
sun. If Worf is darker than many Klingons, his ancestors lived near
the equator on the homeworld.
Robert Hubby
Jacques Gauthier (gaut...@CAM.ORG) wrote:
: : >>Christopher P. Allen (Space...@juno.com) wrote:
: : >>: A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
: : >>: >I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
: : >>: >obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
: : >>: >because
: : > There have been many white actors who played Klingons.
: : >The casting people choose the best people for the part, regardless
: : >of the color.
: : Bingo! We have a winner! They chose Michael Dorn for the part
: : because, here it comes, folks, he was the BEST actor who
: : auditioned!!!! Hooray for good casting!!!
: There was a mention made of the physical difference of klingons
: between TOS and TNG in the DS9 episode that featured Tribbles.
: The TOS trek films also featured the "new klingons". Was this
: ever explained ? A racial war and genocide perhaps ?
Worf: We...do not speak of it to outsiders.
Actually, th TOS trek film Klingons were about halfway between TOS KLingons
and TNG Klingons. The head ridges are narrower, covering much less of the
forehead. This would seem to indicate that the change was gradual.
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
"Wise men? Wiseguys you mean, what do they know?" - Yogurt
Cernovog
My guess would be because his mother was black and his father was
black. I'd ramble on about genes and chromosomes, but your question is so
basic, if you have to ask, you probably wouldn't understand anything
beyond that.
Cheryl/Bill Kinkaid
gaut...@CAM.ORG (Jacques Gauthier) wrote:
>: >>Christopher P. Allen (Space...@juno.com) wrote:
>: >>: A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
>: >>
>: >>: >I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
>: >>: >obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
>: >>: >because
>: > There have been many white actors who played Klingons.
>: >The casting people choose the best people for the part, regardless
>: >of the color.
>
>: Bingo! We have a winner! They chose Michael Dorn for the part
>: because, here it comes, folks, he was the BEST actor who
>: auditioned!!!! Hooray for good casting!!!
>
>The Klingons of TOS originally looked like they came from Mongolia.
>There was a mention made of the physical difference of klingons
>between TOS and TNG in the DS9 episode that featured Tribbles.
>
>The TOS trek films also featured the "new klingons". Was this
>ever explained ? A racial war and genocide perhaps ?
>
>Jacques G.
There are also white, black, Oriental etc. humans. And don't we now
have a black Vulcan? Why can't other humanoid species have different
races like we do?
Shannon Creamer
Plus we've seen black Bajorans...such as Jake's wife in "The Visitor".
Shannon
Ed Rhodes
In article <32d83eec....@news.pinc.com>, ckin...@pinc.com
says...
I think in one of the books there was a reference to the fact that
Worf's faction of Klingon was the one the survive some major purging.
I think for the most part, they cast Michael Dorn because he's one of
the few who can say Worf's lines and not sound stupid!
Joshua Jarvis
Cheryl/Bill Kinkaid wrote:
>
> gaut...@CAM.ORG (Jacques Gauthier) wrote:
>
> >: >>Christopher P. Allen (Space...@juno.com) wrote:
> >: >>: A.Watts-...@bradford.ac.uk (A WATTS-WILLIAMS) wrote:
> >: >>
> >: >>: >I think the people posting this thread are missing something more
> >: >>: >obvious. They chose a black actor to play a regular klingon character
> >: >>: >because
> >: > There have been many white actors who played Klingons.
> >: >The casting people choose the best people for the part, regardless
> >: >of the color.
> >
> >: Bingo! We have a winner! They chose Michael Dorn for the part
> >: because, here it comes, folks, he was the BEST actor who
> >: auditioned!!!! Hooray for good casting!!!
> >
> >The Klingons of TOS originally looked like they came from Mongolia.
> >There was a mention made of the physical difference of klingons
> >between TOS and TNG in the DS9 episode that featured Tribbles.
> >
> >The TOS trek films also featured the "new klingons". Was this
> >ever explained ? A racial war and genocide perhaps ?
> >
> >Jacques G.
>
> There are also white, black, Oriental etc. humans. And don't we now
> have a black Vulcan? Why can't other humanoid species have different
> races like we do?
Why don't they have new ones? A green vulcan, orange klingons, green
clovers,
blue diamonds, purple horseshoes (OOPS that's lucky charms) :)
Neil Olsen
Why not?
Neil
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"...Vidians - they're my beautiful little
organ snatchers..."
Kate Mulgrew, Creation Convention, 1/11/97
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Jacques Gauthier
GSimp95605 (gsimp...@aol.com) wrote:
: A while back someone also asked why Tuvok was black. Well, my question is,
: why does nobody question the fact that the star trek universe seems to be
: full of white people with silly putty on their faces but then all the
: sudden decide to get all surprised when an occasional black alien shows
: up? One would expect a species to show a certain amount of diversity and
: should not be shocked when such diversity appears on the small screen.
: This is said with no animosity but it almost seems as if there is this
: unconscious assumption that white people are the only ones who can be
: "universal" while blacks are always "particular". Just an observation.
: Peace
: Gilberto
I think the question was asked for Tuvok because all the vulcans in TOS
were white. (It was therefore assumed they were all white). The
klingons on the other hand were shown to have at least two races. Those
with the ridges and those without. (With that in mind seeing klingons
with different skin coloration shouldn't be a surprise).
JG
derekrne...@gmail.com
Your Name
means you are just a silly racist troll.)
B. Klingons were always dark-skinned species. Originally played
by white actors in make-up, but in more recent shows they've
been played by "African American" actors.They've also had the
forehead ridges added and been made more prominent over the
various movies and TV series.