Vorik
Gul Zee
Hi,
Why does nobody like Vorik ?
I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
character to play on voyager and does this well ?
So what's against him ?
Gul Zee
Julianna Feigl
Gul Zee wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Why does nobody like Vorik ?
a) the character is poorly written. A real Vulcan, not even a young
and unexperienced one, would never behave that way. E.g.: in "Alter
Ego" he practically flirts with B'Elanna and he is wearing a Hawaii
shirt. Vulcans would try to preserve their dignity and would either
wear their uniform or a Vulcan attire of some sort.
A real Vulcan would never try to initiate a mindlink of any kind
without prior consent of the other person (no matter what his own
condition is at that time!) yet he practically tries to mind-rape
B'Elanna in "Blood Fever".
And don't tell me he is that young and unexperienced Vulcan and his
drives are so strong that he can't help it. If he is already
experiencing his first pon farr he must be around 40 years old and
approximately Spock's age. Do you remember Spock behaving like that?
If they wanted to do a really young, inexperienced Vulcan they could
not have him go through pon farr already. As it is, he is far too old
to be so little in control. (and what was that in "Demon" about not
losing our cool? *No* Vulcan would talk like that!)
Then there is also the question why he is only an ensign if he is
already that old, Spock was a full Commander at that age - or did he
join Starfleet rather late? A really poor, not thought-through
character, indeed.
b) the actor is pure crap. Just rewatch the beginning of "Blood
Fever", when he is in sickbay after B'Elanna has dislocated his jaw.
He is sitting on that biobed, stiff as a stick, his arms crossed in
front of his chest, and when the Doctor diagnoses him with pon farr he
goes like that: (slightly hissing) "this is (pause, arrogantly moving
head slighlty to the side and then downward) an extremely (pause;
forcefully, slightly hissing) personal (pause, chin rests on his chest
by now, since head has finished its movement) question." He had me
rolling on the floor with laughter by then. He couldn't have given a
better parody of a Vulcan if he had tried!
He has absolutely *no* clue what Vulcan dignity is, how to move with
dignity, how to talk with composure etc. He mistakes arrogance for
emotionlessness and overall acts like a spoiled brat, which he
probably is.
c) I have something against blatant nepotism. Why had Lt. Carey to
disappear and crewman Hogan to be killed other than to make room for
the producer's son who is not half the actor either of them is? And I
am not even getting into how we really didn't need a new Vulcan to do
pon farr with him, since we have a regular Vulcan character who will
now never get it. That alone would be enough to hate Vorik, even if
the character were well written and the actor excellent, which he
isn't.
> I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
> character to play on voyager and does this well ?
see above. We've had better guys in engineering and we have a better
Vulcan. We don't need him.
> So what's against him ?
is there something that's *not* against him? Something, anything in
his favour?
Julianna
Dangermouse
Gul Zee <LT.CO...@Tip.NL> wrote in article
<6nfomq$gno$1...@cadmium.aware.nl>...
> Hi,
>
> Why does nobody like Vorik ?
Because Enberg is an ugly geek who can't act.
> I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
> character to play on voyager and does this well ?
99.99recurring% of viewers would say the exact opposite.
> So what's against him ?
Being an ugly geek who can't act, and only got the job because mommy had
him cast in an episode that by all rights should have gone to one of the
regulars...
XMacLeodx
The actor, Alexander Enberg, is a mamma's boy ( Jeri Taylor's son ) that cannot
act. If not for Mrs, Miss, what ever Taylor's influance with TNG and VOY
Alexander would have never been cast. Both of the characters he has played
have been Vulcan. Simply because he cannot portray an 'emotional' character
well.
Also, the convention rumors is that Lien was fired for substance abuse. This
decision was made by Jeri Taylor after Lien refused the sexual advances
Alexander.
So basically, those of us that Liked Lien/Kes really have no good reason to
like him.
Besides, Vorik practaly raped B'Lanna in one episode. I wonder where Alexander
drew his inspiaration for that performance.
>Hi,
>
>Why does nobody like Vorik ?
>I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
>character to play on voyager and does this well ?
>So what's against him ?
>
>Gul Zee
>
>
I know I shouldn't have, but you have to admit, it was funny.
XMacLeodx
Don't get me wrong, I hate Alexander Enberg/Taurik/Vorik also.
BUT, this is some flaws in your logic here.
>a) the character is poorly written. A real Vulcan, not even a young
>and unexperienced one, would never behave that way. E.g.: in "Alter
>Ego" he practically flirts with B'Elanna and he is wearing a Hawaii
>shirt. Vulcans would try to preserve their dignity and would either
>wear their uniform or a Vulcan attire of some sort.
>A real Vulcan would never try to initiate a mindlink of any kind
>without prior consent of the other person (no matter what his own
>condition is at that time!) yet he practically tries to mind-rape
>B'Elanna in "Blood Fever".
>And don't tell me he is that young and unexperienced Vulcan and his
>drives are so strong that he can't help it. If he is already
>experiencing his first pon farr he must be around 40 years old and
>approximately Spock's age. Do you remember Spock behaving like that?
>If they wanted to do a really young, inexperienced Vulcan they could
>not have him go through pon farr already. As it is, he is far too old
>to be so little in control. (and what was that in "Demon" about not
>losing our cool? *No* Vulcan would talk like that!)
>Then there is also the question why he is only an ensign if he is
>already that old, Spock was a full Commander at that age - or did he
>join Starfleet rather late? A really poor, not thought-through
>character, indeed.
First off I will admit that is verbage, and manner of dress is inconsistant
with a typical Vulcan's, pon farr or not.
Taurik/Vorik have been Vulcans in their late teens early twenties. This could
explain some of the lack of Vulcan refinement in the Vorik character.
In Star Trek III, Spock experienced Pon Farr for the first time at the
equivilant age of 18 - 20 ( Rapid aging due to Genisis ), Savvikk voice this
so the audience would understand. I still think TPTB should explore the
possibility that Spock and Savvikk have a child. Said child would only be in
Vulcan middle age by the time of TNG/DS9/VOY.
In Star Trek VI, Spock, for lack of a better term, mind raped Valeris to get
the information they need to get to the peace conference in time. He was not
polite, or gental about it. He was actually rather ruthless. He did show
remourse after the fact, but he still did it.
>b) the actor is pure crap. Just rewatch the beginning of "Blood
>Fever", when he is in sickbay after B'Elanna has dislocated his jaw.
>He is sitting on that biobed, stiff as a stick, his arms crossed in
>front of his chest, and when the Doctor diagnoses him with pon farr he
>goes like that: (slightly hissing) "this is (pause, arrogantly moving
>head slighlty to the side and then downward) an extremely (pause;
>forcefully, slightly hissing) personal (pause, chin rests on his chest
>by now, since head has finished its movement) question." He had me
>rolling on the floor with laughter by then. He couldn't have given a
>better parody of a Vulcan if he had tried!
>He has absolutely *no* clue what Vulcan dignity is, how to move with
>dignity, how to talk with composure etc. He mistakes arrogance for
>emotionlessness and overall acts like a spoiled brat, which he
>probably is.
On all of you point in this paragraph I whole heartedly agree.
>c) I have something against blatant nepotism. Why had Lt. Carey to
>disappear and crewman Hogan to be killed other than to make room for
>the producer's son who is not half the actor either of them is? And I
>am not even getting into how we really didn't need a new Vulcan to do
>pon farr with him, since we have a regular Vulcan character who will
>now never get it. That alone would be enough to hate Vorik, even if
>the character were well written and the actor excellent, which he
>isn't.
Again I agree.
>> I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
>> character to play on voyager and does this well ?
>
>see above. We've had better guys in engineering and we have a better
>Vulcan. We don't need him.
Here here and cheerios.
>> So what's against him ?
>
>is there something that's *not* against him? Something, anything in
>his favour?
I think the question is: What does he have ( besides mommy ) going for him?
Julianna Feigl
XMacLeodx wrote:
>
> The actor, Alexander Enberg, is a mamma's boy ( Jeri Taylor's son ) that cannot
> act. If not for Mrs, Miss, what ever Taylor's influance with TNG and VOY
> Alexander would have never been cast. Both of the characters he has played
> have been Vulcan. Simply because he cannot portray an 'emotional' character
> well.
He can't portray an emotionless character either :-)
>
> Also, the convention rumors is that Lien was fired for substance abuse. This
> decision was made by Jeri Taylor after Lien refused the sexual advances
> Alexander.
and she was right to refuse him... I always knew that lady had class
>
> So basically, those of us that Liked Lien/Kes really have no good reason to
> like him.
neither do those who like Tuvok/Russ, since Vorik usurped his story.
As for those of us, like me, who like both, Kes and Tuvok...
> Besides, Vorik practaly raped B'Lanna in one episode.
which I pointed out before is another reason why I hate the character
- poorly written, inconsistent with Vulcan behavior
I wonder where Alexander
> drew his inspiaration for that performance.
performance? What performance? He was just plain and simply
laughable...
Julianna
> >Hi,
> >
> >Why does nobody like Vorik ?
> >I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
> >character to play on voyager and does this well ?
> >So what's against him ?
> >
> >Gul Zee
Joe Ariola
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<359B95...@hotmail.com>...
> Gul Zee wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Why does nobody like Vorik ?
>
> a) the character is poorly written. A real Vulcan, not even a young
> and unexperienced one, would never behave that way. E.g.: in "Alter
>
> is there something that's *not* against him? Something, anything in
> his favour?
>
> Julianna
>
Dear Juliana and group:
Wow, great post. Points well made. I suppose glacierqueen is an apt
description.
Please spare the liquid nitrogen treatment in my "Please bring back the
silver suit" post so that I may have a chance to respond.
Joe
Joe Ariola
XMacLeodx <xmac...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199807021558...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> The actor, Alexander Enberg, is a mamma's boy ( Jeri Taylor's son ) that
cannot
> act.
Don't you really mean to say that he comes across as quite gay? (Not a
judgement of sexual nature, just character impression) I think so.
> Also, the convention rumors is that Lien was fired for substance abuse.
I always suspected this and thought she came across as quite vapid, perhaps
the result of residual psychopharmaceuticals. At least that's why I gave
them up.
After hearing these rumours I wondered if the episode where she pulled the
all nighters with her extraterrestial fling wasn't supposed to influence us
to think this way.
> decision was made by Jeri Taylor after Lien refused the sexual advances
> Alexander.
OOHH!!! Scandalous!
> So basically, those of us that Liked Lien/Kes really have no good reason
to
> like him.
I don't understand.... (her, no?)
> Besides, Vorik practaly raped B'Lanna in one episode. I wonder where
Alexander
> drew his inspiaration for that performance.
SSSIIZZZZZLLLLE!!!
Dangermouse
Maureen Goldman <inksl...@FOGsunshine.net> wrote
> > A real Vulcan would never try to initiate a mindlink of any kind
> > without prior consent of the other person (no matter what his own
> > condition is at that time!) yet he practically tries to mind-rape
> > B'Elanna in "Blood Fever".
>
> Spock initiates a mindlink without consent in STVI. This shocks even
> his crewmates, particularly since the woman had been his protege and
> likely successor..
He was doing that in order to save not his own life, but those of his
entire crew and, by association with any future war, million of lives in
both civilisations. The needs of the many exceed the needs of the few or
the one, and all that...
Dangermouse
> XMacLeodx wrote:
> > Also, the convention rumors is that Lien was fired for substance
abuse.
Not exactly true (oh shit, isn't this week when I'm supposed to repost the
Kes FAQ? Must remember tomorrow...)
> > This
> > decision was made by Jeri Taylor after Lien refused the sexual advances
> > Alexander.
Hmm... I almost wish I hadn't mentioned this, since people seem to have
taken it to mean that it was the sole reason for firing her, which isn't
the case - it was just something that strengthened Jeri's resolve and made
her feel that she'd made the right decision in choosing to push for Lien's
firing instead of Phillips like Brannon and Ken Biller wanted. (Garrett had
been reprieved by this point)
And yes I do have additional confirmation of this from one of the regular
cast, who I won't drop in it...
Julianna Feigl
Joe Ariola wrote:
>
> XMacLeodx <xmac...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <199807021558...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> > The actor, Alexander Enberg, is a mamma's boy ( Jeri Taylor's son ) that
> cannot
> > act.
>
> Don't you really mean to say that he comes across as quite gay? (Not a
> judgement of sexual nature, just character impression) I think so.
So I am not the only one who had that impression! He definitely was
*the* single worst choice for a Vulcan in pon farr (who can only
survive if his sex appeal is strong enough to attract a willing female
into his bed! :-)
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
XMacLeodx wrote:
>
> Don't get me wrong, I hate Alexander Enberg/Taurik/Vorik also.
Am I glad that I am not the only one!
> BUT, this is some flaws in your logic here.
>
<my complaints about Vorik snipped>
> First off I will admit that his verbage, and manner of dress is inconsistant
> with a typical Vulcan's, pon farr or not.
as I said: poo writing
>
> Taurik/Vorik have been Vulcans in their late teens early twenties.
Taurik may have been that age, Vorik must be around 40 since he
already gets the pon farr. Although it has never been said anywhere it
is implied that Vulcans are around 40 at the onset of pon farr. Take
the case of Spock: "Amok Time" and "Journey to Babel" aired in the
same season, so we can assume that they take place in the same year.
At that time Spock and Sarek had not talke to each other for 18 years
- ever since Spock entered Starfleet Academy. So assuming that Spock
must have been at least 18 when he entered the Academy this would make
him at least 36 at the onset of his first pon farr (and Spock would
most likely get it a bit earlier than most because of his human genes.
Since humans have a shorter lifespan than Vulcans and reach sexual
maturity earlier the human elements in his metabolism might have
speeded up the process and made him reach pon farr a bit early). The
situation is similar for Tuvok: In season 3 he was 109 years old
(since 80 years ago, on the Excelsior, he was 29 years old), so he
must have been 107 in season 1 when he had been married for 67 years
(according to "Ex Post Facto"), which means he got married at the age
of 40. From "Flashback" we know that he got married during his first
pon farr which therefore must have occurred when he was 40.
The situation for Sarek is similar once again. in "Journey to Babel"
he is slightly over 102 years old, so assuming that Spock is 36/37,
Sarek must have been 65/66 at Spock's birth, which would leave a
period of 3-4 pon farrs for his first marriage with Sybok's mother,
which once again seems to fit the facts since we got the impression
that this marriage didn't hold too long.
This could
> explain some of the lack of Vulcan refinement in the Vorik character.
as I pointed out, it can't, since he must be around 40 and should
behave more like Spock at the same age.
> In Star Trek III, Spock experienced Pon Farr for the first time at the
> equivilant age of 18 - 20 ( Rapid aging due to Genisis ),
yes, but his metabolism was under a lot of stress and everything was
speeded up because of the Genesis effect, so it is not entirely
impossible that *some* bodily functions aged (matured or whatever you
want to call it) sooner than others. Also, a Vulcan who looks like
18-20 may be considerably older (Tuvok doesn't look like 110, or does
he?)
Savvikk voice this
> so the audience would understand. I still think TPTB should explore the
> possibility that Spock and Savvikk have a child. Said child would only be in
> Vulcan middle age by the time of TNG/DS9/VOY.
I agree on that, I always thought Saavik would be the ideal wife for
Spock and a child conceived under these circumstances might have
helped to bring them together...
>
> In Star Trek VI, Spock, for lack of a better term, mind raped Valeris to get
> the information they need to get to the peace conference in time.
You say it yourself: he did that, because the information was vital in
order to save thousands of life. The needs of the many etc.
He was not
> polite, or gental about it. He was actually rather ruthless. He did show
> remourse after the fact, but he still did it.
He did it, since it had to be done, there was no other way to get the
information and it was for a greater good. And he still did not like
that he had to do it...
But what would have been the greater, common good of Vorik forcing a
marital bond on B'Elanna? There is no excuse for *his* behavior in
that case...
Oh, BTW, I am glad you agree with the rest of my post! (shows me that
I am not the only one who'd like to see Vorik die a *very* slowly,
painful death...)
Julianna
Rob_Rey
Julianna Feigl wrote:
Gul Zee wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Why does nobody like Vorik ?
[Snip intelligent and devastating character assassination -entendre intended :)]
is there something that's *not* against him? Something, anything in
his favour?
Julianna
You make a passionate case, but I don't see it. I must admit I liked Lt. Carey better too, but haven't seen him in so long that it may just be holdover good vibes from first season. Hogan and Carey were written out long before Vorik was presented so its hard to swallow that they lost anything by Vorik's appearance. If they thought this out so far in advance it would be a first for the show! The fact that they decided to present any long term reoccurring minor characters at all gives me a certain sympathy for him as well. Colm Meaney he's not, but he's better than nothing.
As for his acting, I remember him fondly from TNG "Lower Decks", and don't see the utter lack of talent you think so apparent. The scene you referenced in the sickbay did not strike me as unintentional parody at all. I think he was trying to play off Picardo, and didn't do a half bad job. He was trying at the same time to convey the depths of Ponn Farr to an audience that may not have seen "Amok Time". I think Enberg is trying to portray a younger, less-disiplined vulcan and find it intriguing. He has an effective voice and is pretty good at echoing the wry humor of his predecessors, many of whom are remarkable actors. Leonard Nimoy created a cultural icon, Mark Lenard is a near legend in the trek world, and Kirstie Alley and Kim Cattrell are no mean talents either. It's my opinion that Tim Russ is one of the best actors on the show. That Enberg comes across as less convincing is hardly surprising, but irredeemingly awful? I don't see it. He fits in at the Robin Curtis level in my opinion.
The character himself I find more interesting and better presented than you do, obviously. I must admit I was a bit uncomfortable with the show he first appeared in. I don't care to see that sort of thing in 'R' rated movies, let alone Star Trek. I am rather glad Tuvok was not the protagonist as he's already done the out of control bit in "Meld", and I honestly don't think it would have been in character for him. A young hot-blooded Vulcan, perhaps. Tuvok? I hardly think so . He always struck me as a bit more mature and restrained. A show that explored the depth of that control, and its nobility would have been a better show, but "Blood Lust" was what we got and I'm glad Tuvok was spared the humiliation. I kind of suspect Tim Russ may have balked at that plot line.
On the other hand, the difference between Tuvok and
Vorik was rather intended, if under stated. I think the writers are trying
to present us with a different sort of vulcan in Vorik than we've seen
before. One who is less in control and more susceptible to human influences
than established ones, yet retains the core of logic as well. I kind of
like scenes where he lets down that stiff Vulcan image, and I think they
do it tastefully. In fact, it's been demonstrated he feels Torres is a
logical mate for him, so what does he do? He tries to learn from known
lady-killer and current beau Tom Paris, as its logical to assume he'll
be in this current situation for another sixty years or so, that he'll
endure Ponn Farr again, and that the shiftless Paris will be ploughing
other fields by then. In the meantime he tries to do a good job and appeal
to Torres in the the hope she'll embrace the logic of it by then and be
ready for a more stable partner. This is the kind of character development
and continuity Voyager has been missing, and reinforces my belief the show
has slowly been improving since mid third season.
As for the nepotism, well, I must admit like most
Americans I find it distasteful. It runs contrary to our ethos and reminds
us of the power and influence our country initially rebelled against. The
British have embraced the meritocracy concept as well, much as former smokers
become some of the most adamant anti smokers. However, do you apply it
to more important situations as well? How about Al Gore? He holds a far
more important position in the scheme of things than young Enberg. There
is virtually not a chance in hell he'd be in the position he is today without
the fact his father was one of the more influential Senators in modern
Tennessee history, got him a prestigious scholarship courtesy of his crony
Sen Fullbright, and left him a well oiled political machine as well as
his name. Al Gore inherited far more influence from his father than Dan
Quale did from his. Does this necessarily imply that VP Gore, who may be
our next president, is unfit for his position? If you dislike the nepotism
Enberg may have benefited from, remember all he got was an occasionally
recurring bit part on a low rated television series with the smallest network.
Hardly the prize others have received. Hell, maybe Enberg is a big Star
Trek fan, worked much of his adult life to be a part of the show and finally
got his wish. That his dream was helped by his step-mother may not be as
sinister as it sounds. I am not going to naturally assume that Alexander
Enberg, or Al Gore, is necessarily unfit for what they achieve because
of the help they received along the way.
In closing, Vorik is not my favorite character by any means, but have enjoyed some of the scenes he's been in and am rather appalled by some of the abuse he's received here. It strikes me as unlikely anything I say is going to reverse your opinion, but after all you *DID* ask. :)
Rob_Rey
Dangermouse wrote:
> Gul Zee <LT.CO...@Tip.NL> wrote in article
> <6nfomq$gno$1...@cadmium.aware.nl>...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Why does nobody like Vorik ?
>
> Because Enberg is an ugly geek who can't act.
>
> > I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
> > character to play on voyager and does this well ?
>
> 99.99recurring% of viewers would say the exact opposite.
You know, not with any of the friends I discuss Star Trek with, not in
any of the bars I've been in and ran in to Star Trek fans, nor at any
conventions or specialty shops have I ever encountered the malevolence
leveled at Vorik or young Alexander Enberg as I have in this newsgroup. To
most, he is at worst a non-entity. The most usual response is: "Vorik?" "The
Vulcan in engineering?" "The guy from the Ponn Farr episode?" "He's OK." Not
a ringing endorsement, mind you, but IMHO far more representative of Star
Trek fans than your cruel disparagement. This is when the subject comes up
at all. Some actually kind of like him. The person who started this thread
is obviously one of them.
This newsgroup appears to have a few dozen regular posters and perhaps
several dozen occasional ones. It is easy to see how a passionate and
intelligent rant on nepotism or a character who did something offensive
could influence a group. A clever and devastating put down from someone who
knew him could have the same effect. Now in all politeness I ask you: Do
you, Sir, have an ax to grind? Because the opinion of Vorik you presented is
shared by virtually no one I have actually met. Even among regular watchers,
I have never met anyone with more than passing disregard or simple
disinterest.
The reason I ask you is apparently you have some connection to the show.
You are perhaps in a position to know something no one else does. In fact,
you may be right. Alexander Enberg may indeed be evil incarnate with a
cherry on top or at least richly deserves the scorn, disparagement and
contempt of even people associated with him. Incidentallythere is a good
acid test of whether he is talent less and undeserving of his position. His
ticket has left, or been forced out, thus there is no reason to continue his
welfare checks. You've mentioned possible scripts, do any of them include
Alexander Enberg as Vorik? Or are there more sinister forces at work? Does
The Alexander Enberg Conspiracy continue? :)
>
>
> > So what's against him ?
>
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> Oh, BTW, I am glad you agree with the rest of my post! (shows me that
> I am not the only one who'd like to see Vorik die a *very* slowly,
> painful death...)
Better just to hear about it, and not waste the screen time on him...
Julianna Feigl
Rob_Rey wrote:
>
<lots of stuff about Vorik not being as bad as I depicted him snipped>
Hi!
I just answered you by e-mail, but I think the rest of the readers
deserve a little insight on my response as well, so there is just a
short synopsis of my comments:
Sorry, I don't see any redeeming quality in Alexander Enberg as an
actor, I didn't like him way back in "Lower Decks", found him totally
unconvincing as a Vulcan and far too arrogant in an emotional way that
grates on my nerves and is hard to explain. I did *not* know at that
time that he is Jeri Taylor's stepson, so the thought of nepotism did
*not* influence me at that time. The part of Taurik - unless that of
Vorik - was *not* introduced at the expenses of other
actors/characters, so this element could not influence me back then,
either. I just found him utterly dreadful.
I do admit that the heavy damage Vorik's introduction and continued
presence have done to the Tuvok-character (Tuvok will never get the
pon farr since that has been done with Vorik - the question is: what's
wrong with him? And just in case they'll ever do a story about Vulcan
culture again - do you really think it will feature just Tuvok and not
Tuvok and Vorik, or, even worse, but not unlikely, given Enberg's
family ties, Vorik and Tuvok as in "Blood Fever"?) makes things worse
for me as does the fact that I now know we have to endure him -
instead of e.g. seeing Lt. Carey again, who was not actually killed on
the show - because his mother is the producer. Overall I wouldn't mind
a bit if he never showed up again, or even better, if we had proof
that that guy got lost during an away mission.
And just in case you wondered, I *do* know lots of people who find him
as bad as I do (one of my friends calls him "Vor-eek"), so I am not
alone with my opinion.
Julianna
Donald Brown
I've always thought that Vorik was o.k.
Donald Brown
You must understand those are Rumors, we as a society often do but
shouldn't judge before we hear both sides of the tell...however if the
rumors are true I seriously dought anyone would work with him and on a
personal note if he the rumors are true he needs to be bicth slapped
alittle.
Kay.Brown
.
In article <359D0C...@hotmail.com>, Julianna Feigl
<glacie...@hotmail.com> writes
>Rob_Rey wrote:
>>
><lots of stuff about Vorik not being as bad as I depicted him snipped>
>
I have followed this discussion without saying something so far. This
newsgroup is infamous for negative attitudes and postings concerning
Voyager or aspects of it and only after reading some positive opinions
as well I found the urge to also voice my opinion.
>Sorry, I don't see any redeeming quality in Alexander Enberg as an
>actor, I didn't like him way back in "Lower Decks", found him totally
>unconvincing as a Vulcan and far too arrogant in an emotional way that
>grates on my nerves and is hard to explain.
I liked him a lot in "Lower Decks", so much that I hoped from the
beginning that THIS would be the Vulcan character in Voyager. But I must
admit that Tuvok is a good choice.
>I did *not* know at that
>time that he is Jeri Taylor's stepson, so the thought of nepotism did
>*not* influence me at that time. The part of Taurik - unless that of
>Vorik - was *not* introduced at the expenses of other
>actors/characters, so this element could not influence me back then,
>either. I just found him utterly dreadful.
At Tuvok`s expense!? Not in my opinion. I think it was interesting to
see two different Vulcans in a series. I certainly hope that Vorik will
not disappear or be killed off as well as it is unfortunately customary
with recurring characters in Voyager especially when the production team
is changed AGAIN.
>I do admit that the heavy damage Vorik's introduction and continued
>presence have done to the Tuvok-character (Tuvok will never get the
>pon farr since that has been done with Vorik - the question is: what's
>wrong with him?
Simple - Tuvok is married and he has a family. This has been explained
in some British SF-magazines. The producers are afraid that a Pon Farr
story with Tuvok could send the wrong messages to the audience. It is
nonsense in my opinion, but that`s their attitude.
>And just in case they'll ever do a story about Vulcan
>culture again - do you really think it will feature just Tuvok and not
>Tuvok and Vorik, or, even worse, but not unlikely, given Enberg's
>family ties, Vorik and Tuvok as in "Blood Fever"?) makes things worse
>for me as does the fact that I now know we have to endure him -
>instead of e.g. seeing Lt. Carey again, who was not actually killed on
>the show - because his mother is the producer. Overall I wouldn't mind
>a bit if he never showed up again, or even better, if we had proof
>that that guy got lost during an away mission.
I also hope to see Carey again, but after he has been ignored for such a
long time I really doubt it will happen.
Well, you don`t like Vorik but I do and I hope to see him again. I
certainly would like another story with both Vulcans together.
By the way, my husband likes Vorik too.
>And just in case you wondered, I *do* know lots of people who find him
>as bad as I do (one of my friends calls him "Vor-eek"), so I am not
>alone with my opinion.
I believe you, but there are also people like me who like him and like
Enberg`s performance.
>
>Julianna
Baerbel Haddrell
Dangermouse
Rob_Rey <rob...@att.net> wrote
> > > I think that as a young vulcan he has a beautiful
> > > character to play on voyager and does this well ?
> >
> > 99.99recurring% of viewers would say the exact opposite.
>
> You know, not with any of the friends I discuss Star Trek with, not
in
> any of the bars I've been in and ran in to Star Trek fans, nor at any
> conventions or specialty shops have I ever encountered the malevolence
> leveled at Vorik or young Alexander Enberg as I have in this newsgroup.
I have.
> This newsgroup appears to have a few dozen regular posters and
perhaps
> several dozen occasional ones. It is easy to see how a passionate and
> intelligent rant on nepotism or a character who did something offensive
> could influence a group. A clever and devastating put down from someone
who
> knew him could have the same effect. Now in all politeness I ask you: Do
> you, Sir, have an ax to grind? Because the opinion of Vorik you presented
is
> shared by virtually no one I have actually met.
I've met plenty of people who share this opinion. My problems with him are
thus:
1) he cannot act. (watch Fair Trade, when Neelix tells him not to fix the
replicator, and he gives the most un-Vulcan "it's your funeral" look, which
gets him off to a bad start)
2) Given that he can't act, the only parts he gets are in his
(step)mother's shows, thus taking away either chances for more talented
actors to get their first break, or - in Blood Fever - actually taking
attention away from the member of the regular cast who, as it is, gets the
least screen time.
> The reason I ask you is apparently you have some connection to the
show.
> You are perhaps in a position to know something no one else does. In
fact,
> you may be right. Alexander Enberg may indeed be evil incarnate with a
> cherry on top or at least richly deserves the scorn, disparagement and
> contempt of even people associated with him.
No, I wouldn't say that. I *could* say things about his personal
character... but they wouldn'tmake any difference to the argument over
whether he's any good an actor or not.
> Incidentallythere is a good
> acid test of whether he is talent less and undeserving of his position.
His
> ticket has left, or been forced out, thus there is no reason to continue
his
> welfare checks.
He also doesn't work anywhere that Jeri Taylor doesn't. Wouldn't a decent
actor (even a bland one) get roles elsewhere?
> You've mentioned possible scripts, do any of them include Alexander
Enberg as Vorik?
Only if I could kill him in it.
Dangermouse
Rob_Rey <rob...@att.net> wrote
> The character himself I find more interesting and better presented
> than you do, obviously. I must admit I was a bit uncomfortable with the
> show he first appeared in. I don't care to see that sort of thing in 'R'
> rated movies, let alone Star Trek. I am rather glad Tuvok was not the
> protagonist as he's already done the out of control bit in "Meld", and I
> honestly don't think it would have been in character for him. A young
> hot-blooded Vulcan, perhaps. Tuvok? I hardly think so . He always struck
> me as a bit more mature and restrained. A show that explored the depth of
> that control, and its nobility would have been a better show, but "Blood
> Lust" was what we got and I'm glad Tuvok was spared the humiliation. I
> kind of suspect Tim Russ may have balked at that plot line.
For more on the huge problems with Blood Fever, check out the "Blood Fever"
threads from last year on Deja News. (ISTR the main one is "Why is Blood
Fever Offensive" or something like that)
Dangermouse
. <Em...@trekdata.demon.co.uk> wrote
> >I do admit that the heavy damage Vorik's introduction and continued
> >presence have done to the Tuvok-character (Tuvok will never get the
> >pon farr since that has been done with Vorik - the question is: what's
> >wrong with him?
>
> Simple - Tuvok is married and he has a family. This has been explained
> in some British SF-magazines. The producers are afraid that a Pon Farr
> story with Tuvok could send the wrong messages to the audience. It is
> nonsense in my opinion, but that`s their attitude.
Which might even hold water as an explanation - if they bothered to tell us
whether his mindlink still works. In fact the whole reason for having him
married was surely so that they *could* explore the problems of such a huge
separation. (and god knows, I know how he feels- my fiancee lives 6000
miles away!)
It also doesn't explain why we never even see much of him in
Security/tactical duties - why didn't Seven speak to him in Scientific
Method, when she could see that he wasn't under observation. Why wasn't he
at the briefing in One, when they're debating leaving the ship in the hands
of a single ex-Borg? Etc...
Antony Alonso
Hello Dangermouse, on 03-Jul-98 10:46:34, you said,
>I've met plenty of people who share this opinion. My problems with him are
>thus:
Count me among the "We hate Vorik" school of thought and philosophy as
well.
>1) he cannot act. (watch Fair Trade, when Neelix tells him not to fix the
>replicator, and he gives the most un-Vulcan "it's your funeral" look, which
>gets him off to a bad start)
Not to mention, his total lack of understanding of the Vulcan way. He merely
had to watch ANY television episode, movie, etc that featured either Mark
Lenard (Sarek) or Leonard Nimoy (Spock). While one can argue the Vulcan race
may be varied in appearance or even forbearance (subscribing to the IDIC
principles), it does NOT explain his behavior, demeanor, and attitudes.
While the Vulcan people are embracism of cultural differences, they have a
rather rigid standard for themselves which applies to all Vulcans. To fail
in that regard is to fail as a Vulcan. Much of this training, ritualism,
and mental discipline are entrenched within Vulcan children from a very
young age.
>2) Given that he can't act, the only parts he gets are in his
>(step)mother's shows, thus taking away either chances for more talented
>actors to get their first break, or - in Blood Fever - actually taking
>attention away from the member of the regular cast who, as it is, gets the
>least screen time.
Actually, this is no different than seeing Ira Behr's pet project, the
Ferengi, from being interjected into solo-story shots. Another reason in
my book to stay away from such material and focus on the central cast. Don't
get me wrong --- it CAN be done, there's just not any real evidence or at
least consistency to this effect so far. As for the Ferengi, one could watch
"Little Green Men" and consider it adequate; however the others have not.
Just as non-central character eps from TNG like "The Lower Decks" can be
adequate, others have not.
>He also doesn't work anywhere that Jeri Taylor doesn't. Wouldn't a decent
>actor (even a bland one) get roles elsewhere?
That's a more true litmus test there. If he only can get roles through
nepotism, that should speak volumes.
>>You've mentioned possible scripts, do any of them include Alexander
>>Enberg as Vorik?
>Only if I could kill him in it.
Oh please... I beg of you --- write one now that Jeri Taylor's gone :)
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>I've always thought that Vorik was o.k.
I don't care either way. I don't give him much thought either way.
Rob_Rey
Julianna Feigl wrote:
>Hogan and Carey were written out
>long before Vorik was presented
Well, Hogan died in the season premiere, so in my book that happened a long time before Vorik was introduced. Also I think it's stretching a bit to imply the possibility that The Sinister Alexander Enberg Conspiracy (TM) was already extending its tendrils into the heart of Voyager, as Vorik was introduced in mid to late third season. I don't think anyone would care to defend that Voyager regularly, or even occasionally, was thinking that far in advance.as for Carey I agree, Hogan was written out not *that* long before Vorik
made his first appearance (and Carey could still come back, since he
isn't dead, but doesn't, because of Vorik!)
Julianna, do you watch the X-files? :) Most of those characters were either long gone, or died in "Basics II". I suspect the reason that happened was to give the show a 'grittier' feel, rather than evidence The SAEC (TM) was already taking root. It was self destructive, I admit, but it gave the show a certain poignancy. Which means means I'll still go back and watch it today, but it still was not enough to reclaim me as a 'can't miss' viewer at the time.They had such characters before he came along (all of which were better
actors than he is), but all of them have disappeared in the meantime,
except for the producer's son. Coincidence?
Well again I agree with the first two, but one was dead and the other AWOL. Suder? Well I have a thing about totally embracing homicidal maniacs. That the actor is superior to Enberg is unquestioned, but the character? I'll preface my statement by saying I believe nearly everyone is worthy of redemption, with the exceptions of the Jeffrey Dahlmers. That's why I can try to forget Vorik's actions in "Blood Fever", and forgive the nepotism Alexander Enberg benefited from. Suder however was a bit too close to the 'Dahlmer line' for my tastes. Anyone who takes that much satisfaction from killing turns my stomach. I once had to decide whether I was capable of killing someone without feeling guilt over it, and I determined I was capable of doing it. But to enjoy such an act? To actively seek out opportunities to do so? I took a position as far from that as I could, though obviously that wasn't the only reason I became an aviation NFO (Non Flight Officer). In short I'm glad Suder achieved his redemption, but I'm personally relieved he achieved it in death. Wildman has made little impression on me, sure she's a babe and thus receives the unconscious advantage all babes get from red-blooded males, but I can't think of any compelling scene she's been in. The most positive association I get from the character is the fact that she's a mother, which has allowed poor Neelix to get some sympathetic scenes, and the obvious realism and continuity that provides for a stranded ship. I did miss some eps, what was her best? The crew from "Learning Curve" I remember fondly, but no more than than the crew from "Lower Decks".I would've preferred to keep those other guys, Carey, Hogan, Suder,
Wildman, the four guys from "Learning Curve"...
Watched this again and from an acting standpoint Sharon Fill as Sito struck me as the weakest, but she had the Babe Advantage, and was by far the most compelling and touching character. I liked her as well and she did have by far the most difficult part to play, thus giving her more opportunities to make me wonder "Is this a Bajoran turned Starfleet officer, or the shopping mall type?" She really nailed some scenes which is why I like her and rather wish DS9 would've done that show they promised. Vorik was next, and he had a much easier part but never caused me to wonder. I thought Ogawa was played by the best actress, but had little to do dramatically except play Happy Person, which she really did remarkably well. The other fellow played a good Paris type which meant I liked him, but few others would.sorry, but I didn't like him back then and thought he was terribly
overacting for a Vulcan. I was appalled when I heared he'd be coming
back as another Vulcan character
This is not necessarily a bad thing....Many ST viewers would prefer the actors had a passing familiarity with That Which Has Come Before....He was being arrogant, talking down to the inferior hologram who dared
address the issue of pon farr. (and the fact that the "I am lowering my
head in embarrassment"-gesture was copied from L. Nimoy's performance in
"Amok Time" didn't really help - that guy doesn't even have ideas of his
own how to perform a scene, he has to mimick others!)
Well, yes of course I agree with that assessment, but I won't try to pull out my hair as it's becoming a precious commodity. :)I like Tuvok too, and have a special place in my heart for Tim Russ as I've actually seen him at conventions and can tell he is a Real Star Trek Fan. He's also a genial, charismatic person who is nothing like a stereotypical vulcan, which implies definite talent. He's not my favorite character, as I don't prefer vulcans as a rule, but save my affections for romulans. The vulcan philosophy that I've seen doesn't appeal to me. I like romulans because they combine the mystique of vulcans within a passionate and devious core. However I like Tuvok more than most because because he is so good at his job and is the enforcer of discipline and protocol which is unlikely to engender popularity among regular fans but makes him the most cherished Voyager character in the USN in my experience. I differed from that assessment, but still hoped to see more Tuvok stories because I think the character has a lot of potential to explore and the actor is capable of delivering what is required. I gather you probably agree with me, thus I shall stop preaching to the converted..If he tried he failed. The immediately following scene where the Doctor
tries to get more information about pon farr out of Tuvok is far
superior and gives you much more of a feeling what pon farr is, since
Tim Russ does a hundred times more with the lesser material (Enberg has
to play "I-am-fighting-to-keep-my-control" *and*
"I-am-embarrassed-to-talk-about-pon-farr" while Russ only has to do
"I-am-embarrassed-to-talk-about-pon-farr" and makes so much more of it
that the mere thought of what *he* could have done with the better
material makes me want to pull out my hair in frustration)
Well it *would* be nice if it really worked that way, but four years of Voyager have convinced me that What has Gone Before is hardly written in stone....only that Vorik can't be *that* young since he already experiences pon
farr. He must be at about the same age as Spock was in "Amok Time" and
should therefore have the same dignity and maturity.
Does poor Alex have any redeeming characteristics in your opinion?unfortunately I can't agree. His voice and his terrible mannerisms when
speaking grate on my nerves.
I have to admit that I didn't like Kim Cattrall's Valeris either andKim Cattrell was not my favorite either, but so many people I know liked her I assumed I'd missed something.
that Enberg reminds me of her - maybe that's why I don't like him.
Exactly. And he gets less screen-time than most of the others. TheFor God's sake lets hope that isn't true!
presence of that second, far inferior Vulcan further diminishes his
character's usefulness, since now he can't even expect to have a leading
role in a story about Vulcan culture.
She is one of my favorite female Vulcans - and Enberg doesn't even comePlease, let's remain cordial. I promise not to hope for increased screen time for Vorik if you agree to refrain from pretending Curtis's Saavik was comparable to Alley's. Curtis did a fine job in "Gambit I & II" as I didn't realize it was her at the time. Which does imply talent and reinforces my point that no one is beyond redemption, and parallels Enberg's case a little better.
close to what she did in ST III. She is calm and composed, if maybe a
little dull while he is arrogant in an emotional way
I'm sorry but I still don't believe this is part of the SAEC (TM). :) I am afraid I suspect they are assuming Tuvok is old enough so that he doesn't have Ponn Farr, or assume his marriage eliminates the need. (No, I don't buy it either, but then again I'm not making it up)Of course it wouldn't. That's why they wrote it that way, so that they
wouldn't have to use Tuvok and could introduce another Vulcan, so that
mommy's little darling could get a chance to play a central role in an
episode about a popular subject. That is the main problem with this
episode: they deliberately set out to do a pon farr episode *without*
Tuvok. They never intended to give him what would have been a vital
piece of character development for him. I mean - what is Tuvok supposed
to do when (if) he gets pon farr? His wife is back home in the Alpha
Quadrant. So his dilemma would have been important to show. But no,
that's of no interest, who cares whether or not he even gets the pon
farr? What are we supposed to believe is wrong with him since *he*
doesn't get it? They deliberately reminded us that Vulcans have this
7-year-cycle and then don't do it with Tuvok, which is like pointing a
finger to the fact that he *doesn't* get it.
Which is of course a shame, but I have a resolution to this conflict that doesn't end in the painful death of Vorik that you may agree to. It has been noticed by both of us that Vorik is hardly a traditional vulcan. What if the enforcer of discipline and protocol took it upon himself to instruct young Vorik in the necessary methods of remaining vulcan in extreme circumstances such as these. This would allow direct head-to-head confrontations on a regular basis between Russ and Enberg and we both agree to the assumption that Russ would roll over poor Enberg in these encounters. Imagine the Picard-Wesely scenes that reduced poor Wil Wheaton into a whimpering fool. One of the reasons I don't have a 'Society to turn Wesley Crusher into a Styrofoam Dodecahedron' bumper sticker is that he whimpered so well. I remember so many powerful scenes where Picard had his way with poor Wesley. This would give the unfortunate Neelix a reprieve, and satisfy your sadistic designs on the character and actor as well. Wouldn't you like to see a ' Committee to Reduce Vorik to Spent Plasma' bumper sticker? This would make your movement nationwide. It would satisfy me as I wouldn't hate the character as much as you and it would give Ethan Phillips a chance to redeem his character, one I prefer.exactly, that's the kind of show they would have had to do had they used
Tuvok, but apparently *he* doesn't deserve that kind of attention. He
can be glad if he gets the umpteenth show where he investigates a crime
and where a mindmeld plays a pivotal role. In a show about Vulcan
culture he is the background decoration at best.
As far as I know it was never offered to him. But I do agree, he wouldAgain I can offer only mutual agreement.
never have played a part that is so totally un-Vulcan. That man has an
integrity and feels a responsibility to keep things consistent.>
See above. I don't hate Vorik, I just like the appearance of an occasional familiar face. If he can achieve that as the butt of jokes I am satisfied.What's the point of doing that? They haven't even developed the "normal"
Vulcan race well (e.g. as compared to how well developed Klingons are).
We have an excellent Vulcan on the show with whom they could explore all
those as of yet unknown elements of Vulcan culture and they use him as
some sort of background decoration in the only show so far that dealt
with Vulcan culture - while all we get is that yuppie?
One who
>is less in control and more susceptible to human influences than
>established ones, yet retains the core of logic as well.
He is a long way from home and it could be argued vulcans are a trifle paranoid about outside influences, thus leading to the above 'disipline'.Why would he be that way?
sIt *is* logical, and both of us have noticed the signs. But this may be good for you as he's already gotten his butt kicked by Torres twice.....
>
Don't tell me you think that dude is *still* after B'Elanna and just
waiting for Tom to cheat on her...
and here you have a totally unnecessary, poorly-written character thatAnd this somehow more insulting than other instances of nepotism?
was introduced at the expenses of other characters, all of which are
better actors, and whose presence has very negatively affected one of
the regulars of the show. And the only reason why this guy is there is
that his step-mother happens to be the producer...
You know what, 'tis possible you could have succeeded. The next time I see Vorik on screen he's going to get a scrutiny he never endured before from me. He won't get the 'I am just happy to see a recurring character' treatment' he'll get the 'does this person deserve to be on Star Trek' treatment. You know what's funny? If that happens it will mean we're both wrong. Because if the only reason Enberg was on Star Trek was his mother's influence, if his lack of talent is so obvious to the casual observer then there's now way he'd ever appear on ST again. If he does it either means The SAEC (TM) reaches so deep it's unstoppable, or he's not as bad as you insist. :)No, you did not change my opinion, and I am surprised that people
actually do *not* find his acting ridiculous. He just makes shivers run
down my spine so bad is he. As I said, I already hated him in "Lower
Decks" and found him totally unconvincing as a Vulcan there as well, but
I do admit that I would have had problems accepting even the best actor
in a part that was introduced at such heavy expenses for the
Tuvok-character (as is quite obvious, I am very fond of that Vulcan -
and the mere fact that "Blood Fever" made it look like sexuality is a
subject reserved to white characters, since a pon farr story would have
been Tuvok's *only* chance to show that he, too, is a man with certain
needs and TPTB didn't hesitate to deny him this only chance, is very
offensive in my opinion). Still, I think a good actor would have won me
over the same way Jeri Ryan won me over although I was prepared to hate
her since I adore Jennifer Lien. But then, bringing in another good
Vulcan was not the reason why that part was created, the only reason for
that was to promote mommy's little darling.
Live long and prosper
Julianna______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Dangermouse
Antony Alonso <Fa...@domain.org> wrote
> >2) Given that he can't act, the only parts he gets are in his
> >(step)mother's shows, thus taking away either chances for more talented
> >actors to get their first break, or - in Blood Fever - actually taking
> >attention away from the member of the regular cast who, as it is, gets
the
> >least screen time.
>
> Actually, this is no different than seeing Ira Behr's pet project, the
> Ferengi, from being interjected into solo-story shots.
No, it's a different thing - they're his pet *creative* project. Not just a
way to get his relatives into the show.
(And not just Voyager - a *lot* of Enbergs got involved with Quincy after
Jeri became Story Editor there...)
Dangermouse
Rob_Rey <rob...@att.net> wrote
> > Exactly. And he gets less screen-time than most of the others. The
> > presence of that second, far inferior Vulcan further diminishes his
> > character's usefulness, since now he can't even expect to have a
leading
> > role in a story about Vulcan culture.
> >
>
> For God's sake lets hope that isn't true!
But it clearly is - the *only* Vulcan culture story we've have had in the
last few years is Blood Fever - which went to the new Vulcan instead of the
regular one.
> I'm sorry but I still don't believe this is part of the SAEC (TM). :)
I
> am afraid I suspect they are assuming Tuvok is old enough so that he
doesn't
> have Ponn Farr,
For (what feels like) the millionth time- "Every seventh year of their
adult life" Not "every seventh year until they reach 140 or thereabouts"
There *are* ways we can fudge this one - primarily that if, when he was
sparated from Neelix at the end of Tuvix, his biological clock was reset to
zero, then he wouldn't be due until the end of season nine, which we know
will never be made - it won't go further than seven. But they could at
least *say so* (Or I will if I do a solo one)
> or assume his marriage eliminates the need. (No, I don't buy
> it either, but then again I'm not making it up)
Actually his marriage *increases* the need to do this story - why go to all
the trouble of having a married Vulcan, when we know Vulcan marriages
require a telepathic link, and not telling us how separation affects them.
And yes, his mindlink must have been broken, or T'Pel would have known he
was still alive, and Starfleet wouldn't have been so surprised to hear from
them... (though that could be fudges as well, if Starfleet need better
evidence for not declaring a ship lost than one Vulcan female who is
certain her husband aboard is still alive somewhere far away.)
> Which is of course a shame, but I have a resolution to this conflict
> that doesn't end in the painful death of Vorik that you may agree to. It
> has been noticed by both of us that Vorik is hardly a traditional vulcan.
> What if the enforcer of discipline and protocol took it upon himself to
> instruct young Vorik in the necessary methods of remaining vulcan in
extreme
> circumstances such as these. This would allow direct head-to-head
> confrontations on a regular basis between Russ and Enberg and we both
agree
> to the assumption that Russ would roll over poor Enberg in these
encounters.
Hmm. Norman Doering and I *were* writing a script to that effect, which
would have suggested that Vorik, though Vulcan by race, had been raised on
some other planet, like Earth, Tellar or Andor, hence his total lack of
success at being even remotely Vulcan. But I've dropped the idea after
someone else made a post in another thread that was basically the same
plotline we wanted to use... (oh, yeah and I'd have killed him at the end)
> > and here you have a totally unnecessary, poorly-written character that
> > was introduced at the expenses of other characters, all of which are
> > better actors, and whose presence has very negatively affected one of
> > the regulars of the show. And the only reason why this guy is there is
> > that his step-mother happens to be the producer...
>
>
> And this somehow more insulting than other instances of nepotism?
Yes, because it was at the specific expense of a regular character who is
already the least utilised member of the cast. Frankly I suspect that if
Tim had a new offer and could get out of his contract, he'd be off like a
shot.
> You know what, 'tis possible you could have succeeded. The next time
I
> see Vorik on screen he's going to get a scrutiny he never endured before
> from me. He won't get the 'I am just happy to see a recurring character'
> treatment' he'll get the 'does this person deserve to be on Star Trek'
> treatment. You know what's funny? If that happens it will mean we're both
> wrong. Because if the only reason Enberg was on Star Trek was his
mother's
> influence, if his lack of talent is so obvious to the casual observer
then
> there's now way he'd ever appear on ST again. If he does it either means
The
> SAEC (TM) reaches so deep it's unstoppable, or he's not as bad as you
> insist. :)
Or that Jeri is still involved - Piller says she's going to direct an
episode this season. Which means she makes a casting choice...
Antony Alonso
Hello Dangermouse, on 04-Jul-98 05:04:14, you said,
>> Actually, this is no different than seeing Ira Behr's pet project, the
>> Ferengi, from being interjected into solo-story shots.
>No, it's a different thing - they're his pet *creative* project. Not just
>a way to get his relatives into the show.
While your argument is quite valid, the intent of mine is as well. I was
speaking in terms of there being a certain allowance in personal
indulgement that ultimately served as a detriment to the series in general
and the regular characters in specific. As in Behr is encouraged or
tolerated with regard to his (mostly) insipid Ferengi storylines, much like
Taylor was tolerated interjecting her stepson as a focal point in stories
much better-suited for another more logical character.
>(And not just Voyager - a *lot* of Enbergs got involved with Quincy after
>Jeri became Story Editor there...)
Quincy? Eh, who's that?
Antony Alonso
Hello Dangermouse, on 05-Jul-98 10:29:22, you said,
>> Please explain the connection. I knew of that series, but don't see
>> the relevance drawn in the comparison.
>Jeri Taylor was Story Editor on the last season or two. During that time,
>she got a number of her relatives into working on the series - just as she
>later did with Voyager.
Ah... I see now. And as said before, the true test would be to see if said
actors appeared in other productions not associated with Taylor. AFAIK,
this hasn't been the case (no surprise here).
Ed Tang
I don't like Vorik, but I did like Taurik.
--
Ed Tang
Julianna Feigl
Rob_Rey wrote:
>
> Julianna Feigl wrote:
>
> > as for Carey I agree, Hogan was written out not *that* long before Vorik
> > made his first appearance (and Carey could still come back, since he
> > isn't dead, but doesn't, because of Vorik!)
> >
>
> Well, Hogan died in the season premiere, so in my book that happened a
> long time before Vorik was introduced. Also I think it's stretching a bit to
> imply the possibility that The Sinister Alexander Enberg Conspiracy (TM) was
> already extending its tendrils into the heart of Voyager, as Vorik was
> introduced in mid to late third season. I don't think anyone would care to
> defend that Voyager regularly, or even occasionally, was thinking that far
> in advance.
well, maybe not. But it *is* a strange coincidence that all
semi-regulars who used to work in engineering disappeared just in time
so that Vorik could take their place two weeks before he got the pon
farr (the fact that he works in engineering came in handy to explain
why he has the hots for B'Elanna - he knows her well from working with
her)
>
> > They had such characters before he came along (all of which were better
> > actors than he is), but all of them have disappeared in the meantime,
> > except for the producer's son. Coincidence?
> >
>
> Julianna, do you watch the X-files? :)
As a matter of fact, no, I don't! :-)
Most of those characters were
> either long gone, or died in "Basics II".
strangely enough, only a few of them died. Carey could still be alive
(and he is in almost all of the novels, so I suppose Paramount still
considers him alive), so could the group from "Learning Curve". Ensign
Wildman is alive as well. She is the only one who was allowed a
guest-appearance this year...
> > I would've preferred to keep those other guys, Carey, Hogan, Suder,
> > Wildman, the four guys from "Learning Curve"...
>
> Well again I agree with the first two, but one was dead and the other
> AWOL. Suder? Well I have a thing about totally embracing homicidal maniacs.
> That the actor is superior to Enberg is unquestioned, but the character?
That character was at least interesting. His development, his attempts
to reintegrate into society would have been fascinating to watch
(remember "Basics I" where he tried desperately to do something for
the ship and to contribute in some way?)
> I'll preface my statement by saying I believe nearly everyone is worthy of
> redemption, with the exceptions of the Jeffrey Dahlmers. That's why I can
> try to forget Vorik's actions in "Blood Fever",
even if a real Vulcan would never do that (and even though it was
almost like saying: if the woman isn't willing - take her by force)?
and forgive the nepotism
> Alexander Enberg benefited from.
even if it means that he was introduced at the heavy expenses of an
excellent actor?
Suder however was a bit too close to the
> 'Dahlmer line' for my tastes. Anyone who takes that much satisfaction from
> killing turns my stomach....In short I'm glad Suder achieved his redemption, but I'm
> personally relieved he achieved it in death.
as I pointed out before, he was changing and he was actually trying
hard to make up for his past failures. His reluctance to ever commit a
violent act again in "Basics II" was a wonderful way to show how far
the character had come...
Wildman has made little
> impression on me, sure she's a babe and thus receives the unconscious
> advantage all babes get from red-blooded males, but I can't think of any
> compelling scene she's been in. The most positive association I get from the
> character is the fact that she's a mother, which has allowed poor Neelix to
> get some sympathetic scenes, and the obvious realism and continuity that
> provides for a stranded ship. I did miss some eps, what was her best?
I don't think she had any special, "compelling scenes" - but she
popped up every other episode in season 2 and provided a sense of
continuity much the same way Hogan and Jonas did in engineering
(that's actually something I liked about the much maligned "season of
the Kazon"). Then she disappeared without any reason for over a year
and came back in "Mortal Coil" only to disappear for the rest of the
season again. Her situation as a single mother and as a wife separated
from her husband is a compelling one, though, and the actress is able
to bring that across convincingly, much more so than Enberg's attempts
at playing a Vulcan (IMHO).
The
> crew from "Learning Curve" I remember fondly, but no more than than the
> crew from "Lower Decks".
I prefer the gang from "Learning Curve" (no A. Enberg there...)
> Watched this again and from an acting standpoint Sharon Fill as Sito
> struck me as the weakest, but she had the Babe Advantage, and was by far the
> most compelling and touching character.
she also had the biggest and most difficult part to play, so if she
was not 100% convincing in one scene or another it's understandable,
while Enberg's part was not that challenging and he didn't convince me
a bit...
I liked her as well and she did have
> by far the most difficult part to play, thus giving her more opportunities
> to make me wonder "Is this a Bajoran turned Starfleet officer, or the
> shopping mall type?" She really nailed some scenes which is why I like her
> and rather wish DS9 would've done that show they promised.
Yes, I would have liked to see that as well...
Vorik was next,
> and he had a much easier part but never caused me to wonder.
well, he mad *me* wonder a lot...
I thought Ogawa
> was played by the best actress, but had little to do dramatically except
> play Happy Person, which she really did remarkably well.
she is a very capable actress and was severly underused in that
particular episode
The other fellow
> played a good Paris type which meant I liked him, but few others would.
Somehow I remember him least of all, IMO he was not too memorable,
neither for interesting character (as in Sito's case) nor for bad
actor (as in Enberg's case)
>
> > He was being arrogant, talking down to the inferior hologram who dared
> > address the issue of pon farr. (and the fact that the "I am lowering my
> > head in embarrassment"-gesture was copied from L. Nimoy's performance in
> > "Amok Time" didn't really help - that guy doesn't even have ideas of his
> > own how to perform a scene, he has to mimick others!)
> >
>
> This is not necessarily a bad thing....Many ST viewers would prefer the
> actors had a passing familiarity with That Which Has Come Before....
There is a difference between "mimicking" and adopting that which as
come before, adapting it to your own interpretation, integrate it, add
your personal touch and turn it into something new. Enberg did the
former, Mark Lenard and Tim Russ did/do the latter when creating their
respective Vulcan characters
> Well, yes of course I agree with that assessment, but I won't try to
> pull out my hair as it's becoming a precious commodity. :)I like Tuvok too,
> and have a special place in my heart for Tim Russ as I've actually seen him
> at conventions and can tell he is a Real Star Trek Fan. He's also a genial,
> charismatic person who is nothing like a stereotypical vulcan, which implies
> definite talent.
I agree with you - that's why I like him and his character and why I
am so offended by the way he was pushed aside.
He's not my favorite character, as I don't prefer vulcans
> as a rule, but save my affections for romulans. The vulcan philosophy that
> I've seen doesn't appeal to me. I like romulans because they combine the
> mystique of vulcans within a passionate and devious core.
Maybe that explains why you don't find Vorik that bad - he is indeed
more like a Romulan than a Vulcan in several ways
However I like
> Tuvok more than most because because he is so good at his job and is the
> enforcer of discipline and protocol which is unlikely to engender
> popularity among regular fans but makes him the most cherished Voyager
> character in the USN in my experience. I differed from that assessment, but
> still hoped to see more Tuvok stories because I think the character has a
> lot of potential to explore and the actor is capable of delivering what is
> required. I gather you probably agree with me, thus I shall stop preaching
> to the converted..
Yes, I agree with you. That is exactly why I hate the introduction of
Vorik for no other reason than that *he* could play the central role
in the one and only story about Vulcan culture they have had in four
seasons...
>
> >
> >
> > only that Vorik can't be *that* young since he already experiences pon
> > farr. He must be at about the same age as Spock was in "Amok Time" and
> > should therefore have the same dignity and maturity.
> >
>
> Well it *would* be nice if it really worked that way, but four years of
> Voyager have convinced me that What has Gone Before is hardly written in
> stone....
OTOH they kept a Vulcan's age at the first pon farr pretty consistent
with TOS in Tuvok's back story, since he must have been about 40 when
he went through it for the first time, while Spock was at least 36/37
at that time.
>
> > unfortunately I can't agree. His voice and his terrible mannerisms when
> > speaking grate on my nerves.
> >
>
> Does poor Alex have any redeeming characteristics in your opinion?
Why is that guy "poor"? He gets a job, a featured role in a popular
story - things lots of other young actors don't get that easily, since
they don't have family in the business...
>
> > I have to admit that I didn't like Kim Cattrall's Valeris either and
> > that Enberg reminds me of her - maybe that's why I don't like him.
> >
>
> Kim Cattrell was not my favorite either, but so many people I know liked
> her I assumed I'd missed something.
I don't think you did. I found her just as exaggerated as I find
Enberg.
>
> > Exactly. And he gets less screen-time than most of the others. The
> > presence of that second, far inferior Vulcan further diminishes his
> > character's usefulness, since now he can't even expect to have a leading
> > role in a story about Vulcan culture.
> >
>
> For God's sake lets hope that isn't true!
Well, can you imagine there'll ever be any story about Vulcan culture
where Vorik does *not* pop up (given his family ties) and diminish
Tuvok's already precariously low screen-time that way?
>
> > She is one of my favorite female Vulcans - and Enberg doesn't even come
> > close to what she did in ST III. She is calm and composed, if maybe a
> > little dull while he is arrogant in an emotional way
> >
>
> Please, let's remain cordial. I promise not to hope for increased screen
> time for Vorik if you agree to refrain from pretending Curtis's Saavik was
> comparable to Alley's.
They were different, each of them had her strengths and her problems
and it is really only a question of taste which of the two ladies you
prefer in the part.
Curtis did a fine job in "Gambit I & II" as I didn't
> realize it was her at the time. Which does imply talent and reinforces my
> point that no one is beyond redemption, and parallels Enberg's case a little
> better.
I still have to see Enberg do some good work...
> I'm sorry but I still don't believe this is part of the SAEC (TM). :) I
> am afraid I suspect they are assuming Tuvok is old enough
it's of course not offensive that they make it look like the only
black character is not a real man any more (strangely enough it was
"Blood Fever" where they brought up the subject of Tuvok having an
artificial joint in the elbow due to an injury - makes you wonder what
other kinds of injury they want us to believe that guy has had over
the years...)
so that he doesn't
> have Ponn Farr, or assume his marriage eliminates the need. (No, I don't buy
> it either, but then again I'm not making it up)
if at least that marriage were better developped instead of mentioned
in one side-line once a season, then I would grudgingly buy the excuse
that they didn't want to show him with another woman because of that
great relationship with his wife, but they don't do that either...
> > In a show about Vulcan
> > culture he is the background decoration at best.
> >
>
> Which is of course a shame, but I have a resolution to this conflict
> that doesn't end in the painful death of Vorik that you may agree to. It
> has been noticed by both of us that Vorik is hardly a traditional vulcan.
> What if the enforcer of discipline and protocol took it upon himself to
> instruct young Vorik in the necessary methods of remaining vulcan in extreme
> circumstances such as these. This would allow direct head-to-head
> confrontations on a regular basis between Russ and Enberg and we both agree
> to the assumption that Russ would roll over poor Enberg in these encounters.
> Imagine the Picard-Wesely scenes that reduced poor Wil Wheaton into a
> whimpering fool. One of the reasons I don't have a 'Society to turn Wesley
> Crusher into a Styrofoam Dodecahedron' bumper sticker is that he whimpered
> so well. I remember so many powerful scenes where Picard had his way with
> poor Wesley. This would give the unfortunate Neelix a reprieve, and satisfy
> your sadistic designs on the character and actor as well.
The problem is: I doubt mommy Enberg would allow such a treatment of
her little darling...
Wouldn't you like
> to see a ' Committee to Reduce Vorik to Spent Plasma' bumper sticker?
that's a great idea! Where can I get one?
This
> would make your movement nationwide. It would satisfy me as I wouldn't hate
> the character as much as you and it would give Ethan Phillips a chance to
> redeem his character, one I prefer.
I agree with you about Ethan Phillips. He is the second heavily
underused actor of the show, right after Tim Russ. Ethan Phillips
really would deserve some better treatment of his character.
>
> > As far as I know it was never offered to him. But I do agree, he would
> > never have played a part that is so totally un-Vulcan. That man has an
> > integrity and feels a responsibility to keep things consistent.
> >
> > >
>
> Again I can offer only mutual agreement.
which is even more reason why he should be treated fairly and why the
studio should be glad to have someone like him who knows about Vulcans
and is willing to do their job for them in eliminating the most
blatant contradictions with established facts...
> > What's the point of doing that? They haven't even developed the "normal"
> > Vulcan race well (e.g. as compared to how well developed Klingons are).
> > We have an excellent Vulcan on the show with whom they could explore all
> > those as of yet unknown elements of Vulcan culture and they use him as
> > some sort of background decoration in the only show so far that dealt
> > with Vulcan culture - while all we get is that yuppie?
> >
>
> See above. I don't hate Vorik, I just like the appearance of an
> occasional familiar face. If he can achieve that as the butt of jokes I am
> satisfied.
Yeah - but I doubt his mommy would be
> > One who
> > >is less in control and more susceptible to human influences than
> > >established ones, yet retains the core of logic as well.
> >
> > Why would he be that way?
> >
>
> He is a long way from home and it could be argued vulcans are a trifle
> paranoid about outside influences, thus leading to the above 'disipline'.
Exactly - that's why he would try as hard as possible to fight the
human influences and retain his Vulcan heritage
>
> > s
> > >
> > Don't tell me you think that dude is *still* after B'Elanna and just
> > waiting for Tom to cheat on her...
> >
>
> It *is* logical, and both of us have noticed the signs. But this may be
> good for you as he's already gotten his butt kicked by Torres twice.....
..those were my favourite scenes of "Blood Fever". What did B'Elanna
say? something about if anybody is going to beat the s**t out of the
guy it would be her? Yeah! Go, girl!
>
> > and here you have a totally unnecessary, poorly-written character that
> > was introduced at the expenses of other characters, all of which are
> > better actors, and whose presence has very negatively affected one of
> > the regulars of the show. And the only reason why this guy is there is
> > that his step-mother happens to be the producer...
> >
>
> And this somehow more insulting than other instances of nepotism?
it is very insulting since it's not just nepotism (there is a part and
mommy gives it to little darling), but also offensive since the part
was explicitly written at the expenses of a regular so that little
darling could get it
probably the first: the fact that mommy is now retired doesn't mean
she is not in contact with her former colleagues any more and that
they won't hire the guy just out of friendship for mommy or write him
in because they owe her some...
If I were convinced that we've seen the last of that guy I wouldn't be
so passionate about the whole issue.
Julianna Feigl
Baerbel Haddrell wrote:
>
> In article <359D0C...@hotmail.com>, Julianna Feigl
> <glacie...@hotmail.com> writes
> >Rob_Rey wrote:
> >>
> ><lots of stuff about Vorik not being as bad as I depicted him snipped>
> >
>
> I have followed this discussion without saying something so far. This
> newsgroup is infamous for negative attitudes and postings concerning
> Voyager or aspects of it
as I said in another post it is not my intention to bash Voyager in
general. I enjoy the show. A lot. I like the premise, most characters
and most regular actors. I am willing to defend the show against
unjustified criticism, but Vorik is a problem in my opinion.
and only after reading some positive opinions
> as well I found the urge to also voice my opinion.
> I liked him a lot in "Lower Decks", so much that I hoped from the
> beginning that THIS would be the Vulcan character in Voyager.
Then I would most likely not have become a fan of the series. Enberg
and other not-too-convincing-as-a-Vulcan guest actors on both, TNG and
DS9, are actually the reason why I feared the worst when I heard
Voyager would have a regular Vulcan character. Had Enberg got the part
I doubt I would have watched it. Fortunately those fears were
unfounded and the studio found the right guy to play the part.
But I must
> admit that Tuvok is a good choice.
He is not only a good choice, he is a fantastic choice. Tim Russ plays
a wonderful Vulcan and is every bit as good at it as Leonard Nimoy
(yeah, I know, that's almost blasphemic to say)
> >I did *not* know at that
> >time that he is Jeri Taylor's stepson, so the thought of nepotism did
> >*not* influence me at that time. The part of Taurik - unless that of
> >Vorik - was *not* introduced at the expenses of other
> >actors/characters, so this element could not influence me back then,
> >either. I just found him utterly dreadful.
>
> At Tuvok`s expense!? Not in my opinion.
Then in your opinion it's of course not damaging to the
Tuvok-character that they basically castrated him? That they reminded
us of pon farr only to make it that much more obvious that *he*
doesn't get it? He would have been due this past season - they didn't
even bother to mention this fact in one single line. But that's of
course not damaging to the character. Why would we care for *him*?
Right?
Maybe in your opinion it's also not damaging to Tuvok that he lost his
right to be the featured player in an episode about Vulcan culture.
There was only one episode about his race's background in four years -
and he was nothing more than a background decoration. All of his
scenes in that episode could have been written for either Vorik or the
Doctor, and felt like forced into it to make it less obvious that TPTB
have no use for him. He was a totally unessential part of the story.
And that does *not* mean it was done at his expenses???!??
I think it was interesting to
> see two different Vulcans in a series.
especially when the regular Vulcan character (played by an excellent,
already underused actor) has a tiny, unimportant part and the
producer's son gets the lion's share of the screentime...
I certainly hope that Vorik will
> not disappear or be killed off as well as it is unfortunately customary
> with recurring characters in Voyager especially when the production team
> is changed AGAIN.
I don't think there is any danger of that - mommy Enberg is still in
contact with her former colleagues, they won't dare kill her little
darling
>
> >I do admit that the heavy damage Vorik's introduction and continued
> >presence have done to the Tuvok-character (Tuvok will never get the
> >pon farr since that has been done with Vorik - the question is: what's
> >wrong with him?
>
> Simple - Tuvok is married and he has a family.
That prevents him from getting the pon farr? Since when does marriage
*that* to a man?
This has been explained
> in some British SF-magazines. The producers are afraid that a Pon Farr
> story with Tuvok could send the wrong messages to the audience.
That would depend on how the story is written. If e.g. it focussed on
his reluctance to even think about doing the only thing that could
save his life, this would most definitely *not* send a wrong message
to the audience. This is an excuse which the producers made up when
fans started complaining about the neglection of Tuvok.
It is
> nonsense in my opinion, but that`s their attitude.
see above. More important: if for whatever reason they don't want to
do a pon farr-story with Tuvok then they should have left that subject
alone and pretended that they don't remember about that little detail.
By doing it with somebody else, but not with Tuvok, they just draw our
attention to the fact that they *don't do it with Tuvok*. Since this
Vulcan is already one of the more neglected characters, drawing our
attention to the fact that they *don't* do an important story with him
(one that would do a lot in terms of character development for him,
e.g. by better exploring his relationship with his wife) makes it
really look like they don't care for their regular Vulcan (or the
actor portraying him, or both).
I now know we have to endure him -
> >instead of e.g. seeing Lt. Carey again, who was not actually killed on
> >the show - because his mother is the producer. Overall I wouldn't mind
> >a bit if he never showed up again, or even better, if we had proof
> >that that guy got lost during an away mission.
>
> I also hope to see Carey again, but after he has been ignored for such a
> long time I really doubt it will happen.
So do I - but he pops up in most novels, so chances are that Paramount
does not consider him dead and that he might, one day, return.
> Well, you don`t like Vorik but I do and I hope to see him again.
and what is it exactly you like about him? I think I explained rather
well why I hate him, so I'd like to know what's likeable about him?
I
> certainly would like another story with both Vulcans together.
If Tuvok had his fair share of screentime every year, which he hasn't,
and if he had e.g. three episodes per season featuring him, I probably
could live with seeing mommy's little darling getting some screentime
as well. Since Tuvok gets only one episode per season I wouldn't want
him to have to share this one episode with a poor actor who ruins
every scene he is in.
> By the way, my husband likes Vorik too.
I can't understand that but I have to take your word for that.
Julianna
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > I'm sorry but I still don't believe this is part of the SAEC (TM).
:) I
> > am afraid I suspect they are assuming Tuvok is old enough
>
> it's of course not offensive that they make it look like the only
> black character is not a real man any more (strangely enough it was
> "Blood Fever" where they brought up the subject of Tuvok having an
> artificial joint in the elbow due to an injury - makes you wonder what
> other kinds of injury they want us to believe that guy has had over
> the years...)
Oh, come on... That's definitely taking it too far!
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
> I don't think there is any danger of that - mommy Enberg is still in
> contact with her former colleagues, they won't dare kill her little
> darling
Some of us would dare...
Antony Alonso
>Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> I don't think there is any danger of that - mommy Enberg is still in
>> contact with her former colleagues, they won't dare kill her little
>> darling
>Some of us would dare...
Hey, at least he'd get 5 mins of work... after all, he doesn't get any
from outside the Trek universe or mommy's apron strings :P
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<glacie...@hotmail.com> writes
>Baerbel Haddrell wrote:
>
>> I liked him a lot in "Lower Decks", so much that I hoped from the
>> beginning that THIS would be the Vulcan character in Voyager.
>
>> admit that Tuvok is a good choice.
>
>He is not only a good choice, he is a fantastic choice. Tim Russ plays
>a wonderful Vulcan and is every bit as good at it as Leonard Nimoy
>(yeah, I know, that's almost blasphemic to say)
>
I agree! Tuvok is certainly a very convincing Vulcan who is an
interesting and believable contrast to the half-human Spock.
>>
>> At Tuvok`s expense!? Not in my opinion.
>
>Then in your opinion it's of course not damaging to the
>Tuvok-character that they basically castrated him? That they reminded
>us of pon farr only to make it that much more obvious that *he*
>doesn't get it? He would have been due this past season - they didn't
>even bother to mention this fact in one single line. But that's of
>course not damaging to the character. Why would we care for *him*?
>Right?
I would like a good pon-farr story with Tuvok but that he doesn`t get it
is certainly not Vorik`s fault.
There is much more to Vulcans than the pon-farr aspect. Also without
such a story, there are lots of possibilities to give Tuvok interesting
stories that also feature his Vulcan heritage/biology. In my opinion, it
is regrettable that a pon-farr story with Tuvok will probably never be
shown, but to say that because of this Tuvok has been "basically
castrated" and damaged goes too far.
I have seen all Voyager episodes but I can`t remember a hint that Tuvok
was due in the past season. If I remember correctly, Vulcans go into
pon-farr every 7 years. This would mean that it should at the very least
be dealt with in the 7th season.
>Maybe in your opinion it's also not damaging to Tuvok that he lost his
>right to be the featured player in an episode about Vulcan culture.
>There was only one episode about his race's background in four years -
>and he was nothing more than a background decoration. All of his
>scenes in that episode could have been written for either Vorik or the
>Doctor, and felt like forced into it to make it less obvious that TPTB
>have no use for him. He was a totally unessential part of the story.
>And that does *not* mean it was done at his expenses???!??
>
I agree, Tuvok should have more stories featuring him (I love "Meld"!)
but again, this is not Vorik`s fault but you should blame the authors
for not writing more character episodes for him.
Also, except "Blood Fever", Vorik was never a main character in any
episode.
The past season was unfortunate for most regular characters because of
the introduction of Seven of Nine. I could read in British SF Magazines
that the new team will look for a more healthy balance. Let`s hope that
Tuvok will also get some good character stories!
>I think it was interesting to
>> see two different Vulcans in a series.
>
>especially when the regular Vulcan character (played by an excellent,
>already underused actor) has a tiny, unimportant part and the
>producer's son gets the lion's share of the screentime...
When? Even in "Blood Fever" Tuvok wasn`t unimportant and it was the only
episode in which Vorik played a major part.
>
>I certainly hope that Vorik will
>> not disappear or be killed off as well as it is unfortunately customary
>> with recurring characters in Voyager especially when the production team
>> is changed AGAIN.
>
>I don't think there is any danger of that - mommy Enberg is still in
>contact with her former colleagues, they won't dare kill her little
>darling
>
Perhaps not, but there is a good chance that he will simply disappear as
Carey did in the past.
>>
>> >I do admit that the heavy damage Vorik's introduction and continued
>> >presence have done to the Tuvok-character (Tuvok will never get the
>> >pon farr since that has been done with Vorik - the question is: what's
>> >wrong with him?
>>
>> Simple - Tuvok is married and he has a family.
>
>That prevents him from getting the pon farr? Since when does marriage
>*that* to a man?
I know - as I said, I am only repeating what I have learned. It is not
my idea.
>
>This has been explained
>> in some British SF-magazines. The producers are afraid that a Pon Farr
>> story with Tuvok could send the wrong messages to the audience.
>
>That would depend on how the story is written. If e.g. it focussed on
>his reluctance to even think about doing the only thing that could
>save his life, this would most definitely *not* send a wrong message
>to the audience. This is an excuse which the producers made up when
>fans started complaining about the neglection of Tuvok.
AGREED! I only wish the producers would see it as well.
Voyager is strange in this regard. To say it bluntly, we got the
introduction of the Baywatch program for a time, the introduction of
Deanna-like outfits and a more "sexy" mane for Kes until she was fired
anyway also because she was not attractive enough and then we got Seven
of Nine with HER outfits. On the other hand Voyager can be very prudish
and overly careful. I heared that the end of the Kes/Neelix relationship
also happened because some people could have strange ideas about Neelix
relationship with a THREE-year-old (again, not my idea!) and also all
other relationships didn`t go into the sexual aspect except perhaps a
kiss. Knowing this, unfortunately Voyager`s authors and producers will
never produce such a story - or I would be very surprised.
>
>It is
>> nonsense in my opinion, but that`s their attitude.
>
>see above. More important: if for whatever reason they don't want to
>do a pon farr-story with Tuvok then they should have left that subject
>alone and pretended that they don't remember about that little detail.
I think their intention was simply to start the Paris/B`Elanna
relationship - and it worked, in my opinion. I like this story. I also
think that is is a good Tuvok episode, even without him going through
pon-farr himself. It showed very well how different Vulcans can be,
especially younger and older, more experienced ones.
>>
>> I also hope to see Carey again, but after he has been ignored for such a
>> long time I really doubt it will happen.
>
>So do I - but he pops up in most novels, so chances are that Paramount
>does not consider him dead and that he might, one day, return.
>
I also keep hoping against hope. Yes, at least we can find him in the
novels now and again. By the way, I also enjoyed it to meet Tuvok`s
Maquis students in them as well. It is a shame that they never returned
in the series! I think they could have enriched Voyager a lot.
>> Well, you don`t like Vorik but I do and I hope to see him again.
>
>and what is it exactly you like about him? I think I explained rather
>well why I hate him, so I'd like to know what's likeable about him?
>
Not really, you mainly said that he is not convincing in your opinion
and that he is the producer`s son (I am not repeating your more drastic
vocabulary).
I like Vorik because I find it charming how he tries to understand human
nature and comes to surprising and funny conclusions sometimes. He is
still curious about the concept of emotions, contrary to Tuvok who has a
much better understanding of them. Also, I just like him as a character.
>Julianna
Baerbel Haddrell
Dangermouse
Maureen Goldman <inksl...@FOGsunshine.net> wrote
> Pon farr occurs every seven years, and the show hasn't lasted that
> long. Tuvok can't be deemed due or overdue..
Actually he can - we can tell from his age and the ages of his kids.
Ali Andrews
Dangermouse wrote in message <01bda992$abf93fc0$LocalHost@lgwujvnl>...
How can you tell from that? I didn't think vulcans ALWAYS conceived during
Pon Farr or even that they could ONLY conceive during Pon Farr - just that
every seven years there is an uncontrollable urge to mate. Therefore how
could the age of his children show you that he is overdue!
But hey, I could be wrong, I often am :)
Allie
x
Dangermouse
Ali Andrews <a...@jupiter23.demon.co.uk> wrote
> >> Pon farr occurs every seven years, and the show hasn't lasted that
> >> long. Tuvok can't be deemed due or overdue..
> >
> >Actually he can - we can tell from his age and the ages of his kids.
>
> How can you tell from that? I didn't think vulcans ALWAYS conceived
during
> Pon Farr or even that they could ONLY conceive during Pon Farr - just
that
> every seven years there is an uncontrollable urge to mate. Therefore how
> could the age of his children show you that he is overdue!
We only need to be able to match one of his kids' ages to a pon farr cycle
to work it out. And he was due in season 4. Of course there are plenty of
things that could have interrupted it (it may have been reset to zero by
his separation fromTuvix, or by any of the various temporal anomalies,) but
they could at least say so...
Rob_Rey
Julianna Feigl wrote:
[Snip banter about Sinister Alexander Enberg Conspiracy (TM) :)]
strangely enough, only a few of them died. Carey could still be alive
> (and he is in almost all of the novels, so I suppose Paramount still
> considers him alive), so could the group from "Learning Curve". Ensign
> Wildman is alive as well. She is the only one who was allowed a
> guest-appearance this year...
>
Didn't realize Wildman had only one ep this year. BTW when was the last time we saw
Carey? He was referenced in "Before and After" as dying but of course that ep 'never
happened' and was the forerunner of another ep that 'never happened' thus he should be
alive and kicking. Can't remember his last appearance, first season I'm almost sure. Would
like to see him again as he had some fire in his belly and a sense of class.
[Snip]
> > Suder? Well I have a thing about totally embracing homicidal maniacs.
> > That the actor is superior to Enberg is unquestioned, but the character?
>
> That character was at least interesting. His development, his attempts
> to reintegrate into society would have been fascinating to watch
> (remember "Basics I" where he tried desperately to do something for
> the ship and to contribute in some way?)
>
Well, as far as I'm concerned dying to help save the ship was the best resolution for
the character. He was interesting in the same morbid way some people are fascinated by
pictures of the unfortunate Princess Di's death. Not my cup of tea. I am no firm believer
in capital punishment, but neither do I mourn for Jeffrey Dahlmer or ST's less extreme
example Suder. His death touched me, his life repulsed me.
> > I'll preface my statement by saying I believe nearly everyone is worthy of
> > redemption, with the exceptions of the Jeffrey Dahlmers. That's why I can
> > try to forget Vorik's actions in "Blood Fever",
>
> even if a real Vulcan would never do that (and even though it was
> almost like saying: if the woman isn't willing - take her by force)?
>
Exactly. When my friend who'd taped this show for me told me about it I was a little
put off. He said it wasn't as bad as it sounded and I suppose from a dramatic point he was
right, but the mythos took some heavy damage precisely because of what you brought up.
What are we supposed to believe? That Vulcans get so unhinged that they will use any
available receptacle willing or not? *Yuck* I sometimes whine that ST races are not alien
enough, and I suppose this would qualify as alien, but not exactly what I had in mind for
Vulcans. I suppose one could make the argument that that's why the Ponn Farr is such a
humiliating experience for Vulcans, and why it is hinted at being so primitive. I could
have done without this revelation.
For the good of my enjoyment of the show I prefer to forget it happened like the Warp
Ten Slime Puppy Threshold. Except this could be construed as far more offensive. The show
itself wasn't half bad after that part, but I'm not likely to re-watch it soon without
remembering what it made me consider the first time around. I am not about to blame Vorik
or Alexander Enberg for his role in this, as Alex was not about to say no. I kind of
wonder if Tim Russ turned this down so it was rewritten for Vorik, or if this was a Vorik
vehicle the whole way. This NG, and it's insiders, has given me the impression of the
latter, but nothing definite. I was instructed to review Deja-News but when I entered my
search criteria I got something like 5473 messages and I gave up right there. I do not
intend to be flinging a hand grenade into a crowded room here....
> and forgive the nepotism
> > Alexander Enberg benefited from.
>
> even if it means that he was introduced at the heavy expenses of an
> excellent actor?
I know you're convinced that the mere existence of Vorik is an affront to Star Trek,
The Federation, Vulcans in general, The Screen Actors Guild, Tuvok and most importantly
Tim Russ. I however do not see the complete lack of talent you are referring to. I went
back and watched "Lower Decks" and I watched him closely and didn't see what you were
referring to. I remember the Tim Lynch review said he was kind of weak, but did not
postulate that he was the worst actor ever to appear on Trek , which is what you sometimes
seem to imply. I am also not convinced that Vorik's mere existence necessarily detracts
from Tuvok. Vorik has had exactly one show of any significance, and this does not
necessarily mean that he will be stealing screen time from Tuvok. A Vulcan episode could
well be written without Vorik in radar range. This would not be the first time such an
omission has happened. Or an ep could be written where we get to see Good Vulcan/Bad
Vulcan and if circumstances are as you say, Vorik will get run over. I promise to
scrutinize him closely if he does get into any eps.
>
>
> Suder however was a bit too close to the
> > 'Dahlmer line' for my tastes. Anyone who takes that much satisfaction from
> > killing turns my stomach....In short I'm glad Suder achieved his redemption, but I'm
> > personally relieved he achieved it in death.
>
> as I pointed out before, he was changing and he was actually trying
> hard to make up for his past failures. His reluctance to ever commit a
> violent act again in "Basics II" was a wonderful way to show how far
> the character had come...
>
Hmm...let me put it this way. If Suder was instead a person who raped and/or killed
Wildman would you have any sympathy for him at all? Or would you be rather glad he expired
gracefully? I'm sorry, I can understand how Suder may be an intellectually fascinating
character, played by an excellent actor, but what he had done comes between me and any
sympathy for his character. Vorik never got anywhere with his advance and was stomped on
most thoroughly. It was more offensive for what it implied rather that what actually
happened, and maybe my imagination is a bit macabre at times. But Suder? We know damn well
what he did and saw the consequences. Now imagine the scene from the Wildman scenario I
presented and I may be able to get across why I didn't want to get close to Suder.
> [Snip bit about Wildman, who is getting really shoddy treatment here....]
> [Snip agreement about Sharon Fill]
[Snip more daggers aimed in Enberg's direction....]
He's not my favorite character, as I don't prefer vulcans
> > as a rule, but save my affections for romulans. The vulcan philosophy that
> > I've seen doesn't appeal to me. I like romulans because they combine the
> > mystique of vulcans within a passionate and devious core.
>
> Maybe that explains why you don't find Vorik that bad - he is indeed
> more like a Romulan than a Vulcan in several ways
>
You may have something here. Far too often since TOS Romulans have been portrayed as
little but second rate Vulcans. That may be why I don't see Vorik as such an awful Vulcan
as IMHO he's better than the usual crop of Romulans. Let's see, since then we've had
Carolyn Seymour, who did a fine job in two eps, Andreas Katsulas who was OK some of the
time and occasionally got a good line, John Snyder from "The Enemy" , James Stoyan was
pretty good as Jarok and there was damned little else passable until quite recently with
David Birney's tour de force performance as Senator Letant, and whoever played the poor
fellow sacrificed in "In The Pale Moonlight" who was also excellent. Virtually any of the
others could have been played by Enberg with no loss in quality. How about the clown in
"Message in a Bottle"? Could anyone, including assumed leper Alex, have done a worse job?
Granted the part was written poorly, but the guy playing it certainly didn't add anything
to the part. The only Romulan on the ship with an ounce of sense or ability was the
suspicious female sub-commander and again she was nothing but a second rate Vulcan IMHO.
If I see Enberg as not that bad as a Vulcan, its because he might actually make a passable
Romulan, compared to what we've seen.
>
[Snip]
> > Does poor Alex have any redeeming characteristics in your opinion?
>
> Why is that guy "poor"? He gets a job, a featured role in a popular
> story - things lots of other young actors don't get that easily, since
> they don't have family in the business...
>
But no one's totally worthless! If you can find a place in your heart for Suder, how
can you deny at least a smidgen of compassion for Enberg. Their situations are hardly
comparable....
> >
> > [Snip Kim Catrell]
> >[Snip assumption that Robin Curtis brought something to the part of Savvik....We will
> remain calm and polite...calm and polite...it's totally off subject and we've written
> enough already....calm and polite....:)]
>
> I still have to see Enberg do some good work...
>
> > I'm sorry but I still don't believe this is part of the SAEC (TM). :) I
> > am afraid I suspect they are assuming Tuvok is old enough
>
> it's of course not offensive that they make it look like the only
> black character is not a real man any more (strangely enough it was
> "Blood Fever" where they brought up the subject of Tuvok having an
> artificial joint in the elbow due to an injury - makes you wonder what
> other kinds of injury they want us to believe that guy has had over
> the years...)
>
Umm... This is meant mostly in jest or frustration, is it not?
>
>
[Snip 'Vorik as Wesley Crusher' theorem]
> The problem is: I doubt mommy Enberg would allow such a treatment of
> her little darling...
>
I had gathered she was forced out and it wasn't a pleasant situation. Of course I have
no idea what really happened, but if she was, why would she retain control over anything?
Heard she might be directing an ep which implies it was a 'mutual parting of ways' as with
Lien. But of course no one really believes that here any ways....
> Wouldn't you like
> > to see a ' Committee to Reduce Vorik to Spent Plasma' bumper sticker?
>
> that's a great idea! Where can I get one?
>
You may be out of luck. I heard you're required to say "I have nothing against the
actor but the character would make great reactor fuel" three times under a lie
detector....
> [Snip poor Neelix, the Rodney Dangerfield of the Delta Quadrant]
>
>
>
[Snip more Tuvok]
> [Snip Torres vs. Vorik celebrity death match]
Snip Rest
>
> Live long and prosper
> Julianna
To You As Well:)
Dangermouse
Rob_Rey <rob...@att.net> wrote
[re: Blood Fever]
> I kind of
> wonder if Tim Russ turned this down so it was rewritten for Vorik, or if
this was a
> Vorik vehicle the whole way. This NG, and it's insiders, has given me
the > impression of the latter, but nothing definite.
It was always intended for Vorik - he was introduced in Fair Trade and
Alter Ego specifically to set up his presence for Blood Fever.
> > it's of course not offensive that they make it look like the only
> > black character is not a real man any more (strangely enough it was
> > "Blood Fever" where they brought up the subject of Tuvok having an
> > artificial joint in the elbow due to an injury - makes you wonder what
> > other kinds of injury they want us to believe that guy has had over
> > the years...)
>
> Umm... This is meant mostly in jest or frustration, is it not?
Joking, I hope. Even *I* think this is going over the top...
> I had gathered she was forced out and it wasn't a pleasant situation.
No, that was Lisa Klink. Jeri Taylor did choose to retire (although whether
she'd have been fired if she didn't...? We'll never know. Doesn't matter
anyway.)
Julianna Feigl
>
> In article <35A11F...@hotmail.com>, Julianna Feigl
> <glacie...@hotmail.com> writes
> >Baerbel Haddrell wrote:
> >
>
> >But I must
> >> admit that Tuvok is a good choice.
> >
> >He is not only a good choice, he is a fantastic choice. Tim Russ plays
> >a wonderful Vulcan and is every bit as good at it as Leonard Nimoy
> >(yeah, I know, that's almost blasphemic to say)
> >
>
> I agree! Tuvok is certainly a very convincing Vulcan who is an
> interesting and believable contrast to the half-human Spock.
See? And since I've always been interested in Vulcan culture and since
Tuvok is *that* good - it's only logical that he is one of my
favourite characters and that therefore I don't take it lightly when
he is harmed
> >Then in your opinion it's of course not damaging to the
> >Tuvok-character that they basically castrated him? That they reminded
> >us of pon farr only to make it that much more obvious that *he*
> >doesn't get it? He would have been due this past season - they didn't
> >even bother to mention this fact in one single line. But that's of
> >course not damaging to the character. Why would we care for *him*?
> >Right?
>
> I would like a good pon-farr story with Tuvok
see what I mean? But since we have Vorik and *he* got the pon farr
story, Tuvok is back to his umpteenth investigation complete with mind
meld and even some violence... a weak remake of "Meld" (can you tell
that I hated "Random Thoughts"?). Tuvok never gets anything else but
variations on that theme ("Ex Post Facto" is an other example) and one
chance for him to do something else for a change is given away to
somebody else - and you expect me *not* to be offended?
but that he doesn`t get it
> is certainly not Vorik`s fault.
Are you sure? They introduced Vorik specifically to do pon farr
without Tuvok (he came out of nowhere about 2 episodes before "Blood
Fever"!), since they didn't want to do it with Tuvok, but definitely
wanted to do it, since it's such a cool concept - apparently way too
cool to be wasted on Tuvok (who is only good for mind melds) ...
If Vorik had been there for a year or so, okay, then I would
understand the need to explain how *he* deals with pon farr, but he
wasn't. He was introduced exclusively to provide them with a chance to
use the cool pon farr concept without having to involve Tuvok (and to
provide the producer's son with a recurring part...).
> There is much more to Vulcans than the pon-farr aspect.
I agree, but the only aspect of Vulcans they ever allow Tuvok to
explore is the mind meld - and the *one* time they did something other
than the mind meld (i.e. the pon farr) that story went to somebody
else - which, in my opinion, did not serve the Tuvok-character
particularly well
Also without
> such a story, there are lots of possibilities to give Tuvok interesting
> stories that also feature his Vulcan heritage/biology.
But do they do such stories? That is exactly the probelm: the *only*
time they did such a story about Vulcan culture/heritage/biology, it
went to somebody other than Tuvok
In my opinion, it
> is regrettable that a pon-farr story with Tuvok will probably never be
> shown, but to say that because of this Tuvok has been "basically
> castrated" and damaged goes too far.
>
> I have seen all Voyager episodes but I can`t remember a hint that Tuvok
> was due in the past season.
well, in "Ex Post Facto" he says that he has been married for 67
years, so three years later, in season 4, he and his wife would have
had their 70th anniversary. We also know from "Flashback" that he got
married to T'Pel (her name is specifically mentioned, so there is not
even the chance that he may have been talking about another,
as-of-yet-unknown, previous marriage...) during his first pon farr,
not before or after it. So his 70th wedding anniversary would also
mean that it's been 10 x 7 years since his first pon farr. He
therefore would've been due in season 4. But of course that fact
didn't deserve even a sideline-comment. Vorik gets a whole episode and
Tuvok, well.. who cares. Let's give him another mind meld story...
What other explanation could there be for Tuvok not getting the pon
farr when he should, except that he is *not* a normal, healthy Vulcan
man? What does it tell us about how the studio cares for Tuvok (or
better: doesn't care) if they bring him into such a situation and
don't give an explanation of *some* kind?
If I remember correctly, Vulcans go into
> pon-farr every 7 years. This would mean that it should at the very least
> be dealt with in the 7th season.
well, as I said, it's been 10 x 7 years since his first pon farr, yet
nobody bothered to give an explanation of *some* kind, either how he
survived it or why he did *not* get it when he should have - which is,
IMO, damaging to the character
>
> >Maybe in your opinion it's also not damaging to Tuvok that he lost his
> >right to be the featured player in an episode about Vulcan culture.
> >There was only one episode about his race's background in four years -
> >and he was nothing more than a background decoration. All of his
> >scenes in that episode could have been written for either Vorik or the
> >Doctor, and felt like forced into it to make it less obvious that TPTB
> >have no use for him. He was a totally unessential part of the story.
> >And that does *not* mean it was done at his expenses???!??
> >
>
> I agree, Tuvok should have more stories featuring him (I love "Meld"!)
same here
> but again, this is not Vorik`s fault but you should blame the authors
> for not writing more character episodes for him.
but that's essentially the same - the authors wrote the episode for
*Vorik* instead of Tuvok. They introduced Vorik, so that they could
write the one and only episode about Vulcan culture that they've done
in four years for *him* instead of Tuvok. They didn't *want* to give
Tuvok a story, so they invented Vorik to do it with him.
> Also, except "Blood Fever", Vorik was never a main character in any
> episode.
But it's the only episode about Vulcan culture that they've done in
four years and therefore should have gone to the regular Vulcan
character. If there had been 10 episodes about Vulcan culture I might
not have minded, if one doesn't have Tuvok as the central character,
but with just one, that's hard to swallow.
> The past season was unfortunate for most regular characters
very few had as little screentime as Tuvok (he got totally lost
towards the end of the season - when everybody else got yet another
episode or at least, as in Neelix's case, a B-story)
because of
> the introduction of Seven of Nine. I could read in British SF Magazines
> that the new team will look for a more healthy balance. Let`s hope that
> Tuvok will also get some good character stories!
Well, I've had a look at several spoiler pages on the 'net, so far it
doesn't look that way, which is even worse considering that he already
had *very* little to do in the last third of season 4 and apparently
is now again on the waiting list for a script while everybody else
gets their story first (how many variations on the "investigation with
mind meld"-theme can they do, anyway? And what will they allow him to
do once they run out of ideas for that particular scenario?)
> >I think it was interesting to
> >> see two different Vulcans in a series.
> >
> >especially when the regular Vulcan character (played by an excellent,
> >already underused actor) has a tiny, unimportant part and the
> >producer's son gets the lion's share of the screentime...
>
> When? Even in "Blood Fever" Tuvok wasn`t unimportant and it was the only
> episode in which Vorik played a major part.
Yes, I am talking about "Blood Fever". Tuvok was absolutely
unnecessary to the whole story. The first scene he had in sickbay with
the Doctor could have been done with Vorik (the Doctor insisting on
getting more information about pon farr from him), the scene with
Vorik, where he tells him he suspects B'Elanna might be affected by
the pon farr as well, could have been done by the Doctor instead, who
should have figured it out as well given the information about pon
farr. And just about *anybody* could have done the scenes on that
planet. It felt all so forced, so "well, we don't like that Vulcan,
but since we are doing a story about Vulcan culture we somehow have to
give him a few lines - now where would we fit him in?". If Tuvok had
been absent, the story would still have been the same, the fact that
it was Tuvok, who gave the Doctor some information about pon farr,
instead of Vorik and that it was Tuvok and not the Doctor, who figured
out what was wrong with B'Elanna, had absolutely no influence on the
story. Vorik, on the other hand, was a *very* important, integral part
of that show...
And nobody even bothered to realize that that same affliction could
happen to Tuvok any day, none of his supposedly good friends made even
one single comment in that direction ("say, Tuvok, when are you due,
and what will *you* do then?" - not that I think he would have given
them a satisfactory answer, but at least it would have shown that they
care for him and that they are aware that there is a problem, but no
such luck for Tuvok)
> >I don't think there is any danger of that - mommy Enberg is still in
> >contact with her former colleagues, they won't dare kill her little
> >darling
> >
>
> Perhaps not, but there is a good chance that he will simply disappear as
> Carey did in the past.
well, the actor who played Carey, doesn't have a mother who is the
former producer of the show, or does he? :-)
> >> Simple - Tuvok is married and he has a family.
> >
> >That prevents him from getting the pon farr? Since when does marriage
> >*that* to a man?
>
> I know - as I said, I am only repeating what I have learned. It is not
> my idea.
I know, but you agree that it is a *very* lame excuse. Even more so,
since the fact that Tuvok is married is forgotten by the writers 99%
of the time. Think of all the casual viewers: how many of them might
have missed one of the few episodes where his family was mentioned? Or
the new viewers attracted by Seven of Nine: if they missed "Hunters"
they can't have a clue that Tuvok is married. And even those of us,
who do remember: do we really have an idea what that marriage means to
Tuvok? The kids, yes, we've seen some proof of that, but his wife?
This relationship would *desperately* need some development and a pon
farr story *would* have been a good way to do that, the same goes for
"Alter Ego", where the fact that he felt attracted to another woman
*could* have been used to show us more about how he feels about his
wife and the separation from her: does he feel guilty for being
attracted to somebody else, has he given up hope of ever seeing his
wife again...? But of course the fact that he is married was mentioned
in only one line towards the end of the episode and *not* brought to
good use - and under these circumstances they claim that the thought
of Tuvok even *having* sexual needs (that is, going through pon farr)
while separated from his wife would offend the audience? That is so
ridiculous an excuse that it can't be the true reason for the way they
cheated him out of that particular storyline.
> >This has been explained
> >> in some British SF-magazines. The producers are afraid that a Pon Farr
> >> story with Tuvok could send the wrong messages to the audience.
> >
> >That would depend on how the story is written. If e.g. it focussed on
> >his reluctance to even think about doing the only thing that could
> >save his life, this would most definitely *not* send a wrong message
> >to the audience. This is an excuse which the producers made up when
> >fans started complaining about the neglection of Tuvok.
>
> AGREED! I only wish the producers would see it as well.
I bet they do - since their excuse is *so* lame they probably know
pretty well what could have been done had there not been the need to
promote the producer's son... (not even they can be *that*
unprofessional not to realize what great potential there would have
been with Tuvok)
>
> Voyager is strange in this regard. To say it bluntly, we got the
> introduction of the Baywatch program for a time, the introduction of
> Deanna-like outfits and a more "sexy" mane for Kes until she was fired
> anyway also because she was not attractive enough
that is the second thing about Voyager which offends me. I liked Kes
very much and the way she was treated is as bad as what they did to
Tuvok. What is worse, these two "victims" of Jeri Taylor are two of
the best actors of the cast...
and then we got Seven
> of Nine with HER outfits. On the other hand Voyager can be very prudish
> and overly careful. I heared that the end of the Kes/Neelix relationship
> also happened because some people could have strange ideas about Neelix
> relationship with a THREE-year-old (again, not my idea!)
that is also a lame excuse - they tried to sex up the show, so a
permanent relationship for one of their pretty ladies (especially with
the little "hedgehog" Neelix) was a problem. They had to free her of
that and change her outfits and turn her into a sex kitten, before
they decided to do even better and replace her with an even sexier
lady...
and also all
> other relationships didn`t go into the sexual aspect except perhaps a
> kiss. Knowing this, unfortunately Voyager`s authors and producers will
> never produce such a story - or I would be very surprised.
>
> >
> >It is
> >> nonsense in my opinion, but that`s their attitude.
> >
> >see above. More important: if for whatever reason they don't want to
> >do a pon farr-story with Tuvok then they should have left that subject
> >alone and pretended that they don't remember about that little detail.
>
> I think their intention was simply to start the Paris/B`Elanna
> relationship - and it worked, in my opinion. I like this story.
But did they need the pon farr for that? Couldn't they have done it
with some Klingon stuff, an allergic reaction of Klingons to some
element in the atmosphere, mind-tampering, or a totally different
story?
Why did they have to remind *everybody*, even those who have never
seen "Amok Time" or who have seen it so long ago that they don't
clearly remember what it was about, of the fact that Vulcans get the
pon farr when they don't intend to do it with Tuvok? That really is
like pointing a finger to the fact that he does *not* get it
(especially since - instead of keeping the references to his cycle
vague - they've given us a pretty good idea when it should happen!).
Would it not have been better under these circumstances to forget
about it and not bring it up ever and find something else to get Tom
and B'Elanna together?
I also
> think that is is a good Tuvok episode, even without him going through
> pon-farr himself. It showed very well how different Vulcans can be,
> especially younger and older, more experienced ones.
as I said before, in my opinion it just shows how superfluous and
expendable Tuvok apparently is in the writers' opinion. Vorik - who in
my opinion is written out of character for a Vulcan, since a Vulcan
would not attack a woman and try to force her into a marital bond, and
who also performs his lines out of character for a Vulcan (he goes
through his first pon farr already - he should have the maturity and
dignity of Spock at the same occasion!) is the central Vulcan
character and Tuvok is just there, serving no particular purpose other
than that of background decoration, since they apparently felt they
had to use him *somehow* in a story about Vulcan culture.
> >So do I - but he pops up in most novels, so chances are that Paramount
> >does not consider him dead and that he might, one day, return.
> >
>
> I also keep hoping against hope. Yes, at least we can find him in the
> novels now and again. By the way, I also enjoyed it to meet Tuvok`s
> Maquis students in them as well. It is a shame that they never returned
> in the series! I think they could have enriched Voyager a lot.
At the danger of being repetitive - apparently neither of them has a
relative involved in the production of Voyager... :-)
> >> Well, you don`t like Vorik but I do and I hope to see him again.
> >
> >and what is it exactly you like about him? I think I explained rather
> >well why I hate him, so I'd like to know what's likeable about him?
> >
>
> Not really, you mainly said that he is not convincing in your opinion
> and that he is the producer`s son (I am not repeating your more drastic
> vocabulary).
I explained in more detail in a previous post (how I think he is
written out of character for a Vulcan and how I think his acting is
less than impressive)
>
> I like Vorik because I find it charming how he tries to understand human
> nature and comes to surprising and funny conclusions sometimes.
He is far too old to be that naive, since he already goes through pon
farr. He doesn't have the dignity you expect from a Vulcan, he has a
rather arrogant manner of speaking (and a voice that makes me shiver -
I wouldn't want to meet that guy in a dark alley at night, he gives me
the creeps ...)
He is
> still curious about the concept of emotions, contrary to Tuvok who has a
> much better understanding of them. Also, I just like him as a character.
well, I could have done without him - obviously. As I said, I did
accept Jeri Ryan although she was introduced at the expenses of
Jennifer Lien, one of my favourites, since Ryan is good, but Enberg's
utter lack of acting talents (in my opinion), combined with the fact
that unlike other, better actors (Carey, the Maquis students) he keeps
returning because his mother is one of the show's creators, makes it
*very* hard for me to accept that guy, who was preferred over Tuvok
(another favourite of mine) by the writers
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
>
> Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Then in your opinion it's of course not damaging to the
> > Tuvok-character that they basically castrated him? That they reminded
> > us of pon farr only to make it that much more obvious that *he*
> > doesn't get it? He would have been due this past season - they didn't
> > even bother to mention this fact in one single line. But that's of
> > course not damaging to the character. Why would we care for *him*?
> > Right?
>
> so much, but this has gotten very unpleasant.
maybe I hate him because his presence and the attention he got -
despite his poor acting - was detrimental to one of the regular
characters and I find that offensive? Would that be totally
ununderstandable and surprising?
> Pon farr occurs every seven years, and the show hasn't lasted that
> long. Tuvok can't be deemed due or overdue..
Yes, he can. Once again: Tuvok said in the episode "Ex Post Facto"
(1st season) that he had been married for 67 years. So 3 years later,
in season 4, he and his wife T'Pel would have had their 70th
anniversary. In addition to that he said in "Flashback" that he
married T'Pel, his wife (she is specifically mentioned - so there is
no speculation about a previous marriage or any similar way out of the
dilemma), during his first pon farr - which therefore, must have
occurred 67 years prior to season 1 and 70 years prior to season 4.
Since 10 x 7 = 70 he would have been due for pon farr in season 4, but
of course, since they had preferred Vorik for a pon farr story, the
writers decided to pretend that Tuvok doesn't get it. Since he didn't
get it when he should have, something must be wrong with him - or do
you have an other explanation?
They didn't even bother to give us a one-line comment on the situation
(e.g. how he survived it in case he had it between episodes, or why it
is delayed this time). So it is quite obvious that the writers don't
care in the least for this character. Coincidentally he also had an
*extremely* weak episode this season - which, in addition, was also a
rehash of several story-elements that had been used in Tuvok-episodes
several times, like e.g. the investigation, the mind meld, violence.
Well, *I* find it offensive when a potentially good story concept is
wasted on a minor character, while the regular character is in dire
need of a good episode.
Julianna
Rob_Rey
Dangermouse wrote:
Rob_Rey <rob...@att.net> wrote[re: Blood Fever]
> I kind of
> wonder if Tim Russ turned this down so it was rewritten for Vorik, or if
this was a
> Vorik vehicle the whole way. This NG, and it's insiders, has given me
the > impression of the latter, but nothing definite.
It was always intended for Vorik - he was introduced in Fair Trade and
Alter Ego specifically to set up his presence for Blood Fever.
Thank You, But is it possible we will see a Ponn Farr ep with Tuvok? I have read that he was due last year, and realize duplication is a no-no, but we've had several 'Never Happened' eps starting with "Time and Again" and the recent "Year of Hell" and it's prelude. Might make for interesting contrast between the two.
[Snip Tuvok Castration Theory]
> I had gathered she was forced out and it wasn't a pleasant situation.
No, that was Lisa Klink. Jeri Taylor did choose to retire (although whether
she'd have been fired if she didn't...? We'll never know. Doesn't matter
anyway.)
Lisa Klink was the one that wrote "Favorite Son" was she not? For some reason that story reminded me of "Threshold", Interesting beginning (young ensign has done something Really Bad for which there might be Consequences) that deteriorated rapidly into well, nonsense. Did she write any decent eps?
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> . wrote:
> but that he doesn`t get it
> > is certainly not Vorik`s fault.
>
> Are you sure?
Well, in purely factual terms, it's Jeri Taylor and Lisa Klink's fault that
he doesn't get it...
> that is the second thing about Voyager which offends me. I liked Kes
> very much and the way she was treated is as bad as what they did to
> Tuvok. What is worse, these two "victims" of Jeri Taylor are two of
> the best actors of the cast...
Although to be fair, Jeri Ryan is excellent in the show, even if she was
cast for the wrong reasons.
> > I think their intention was simply to start the Paris/B`Elanna
> > relationship - and it worked, in my opinion. I like this story.
>
> But did they need the pon farr for that? Couldn't they have done it
> with some Klingon stuff, an allergic reaction of Klingons to some
> element in the atmosphere, mind-tampering, or a totally different
> story?
It's certainly very odd to do a Vulcan biology story about a Klingon. Or
did somebody feel that DS9 "owns" Klingon rituals the way Voyager "owns"
the Borg?
> At the danger of being repetitive - apparently neither of them has a
> relative involved in the production of Voyager... :-)
Actually, I gather Carey *will* be back in the new season.
> He is far too old to be that naive, since he already goes through pon
> farr. He doesn't have the dignity you expect from a Vulcan, he has a
> rather arrogant manner of speaking (and a voice that makes me shiver -
> I wouldn't want to meet that guy in a dark alley at night, he gives me
> the creeps ...)
Off the topic slightly - he reminds me vaguely of Brannon in some ways in
this regard...
Antony Alonso
>I would like a good pon-farr story with Tuvok but that he doesn`t get it
>is certainly not Vorik`s fault.
No, the blame goes to Jeri Taylor who tossed the role to her stepson,
Alexander Enberg (Vorick).
>Not really, you mainly said that he is not convincing in your opinion
>and that he is the producer`s son (I am not repeating your more drastic
>vocabulary).
Which tends to be supported in that he only got roles through his mother's
producing such series.
>I like Vorik because I find it charming how he tries to understand human
>nature and comes to surprising and funny conclusions sometimes. He is
>still curious about the concept of emotions, contrary to Tuvok who has a
>much better understanding of them. Also, I just like him as a character.
More like idiotic, incompetent, and inconsistent acting and writing.
Julianna Feigl
>
> Julianna Feigl wrote:
>
> [Snip banter about Sinister Alexander Enberg Conspiracy (TM) :)]
>
> strangely enough, only a few of them died. Carey could still be alive
> Didn't realize Wildman had only one ep this year.
one this year ("Mortal Coil") and one in season 3 ("Basics, pt. 2")
BTW when was the last time we saw
> Carey? He was referenced in "Before and After" as dying but of course that ep 'never
> happened' and was the forerunner of another ep that 'never happened' thus he should be
> alive and kicking. Can't remember his last appearance, first season I'm almost sure.
I couldn't say for sure right now, but definitely first season. But he
is also in some of the novels, which could imply that Paramount
doesn't consider him dead and that authors are still allowed to use
him... (the same goes for the gang from "Learning Curve")
Would
> like to see him again as he had some fire in his belly and a sense of class.
Yep - that guy, I liked a lot! But since *he* doesn't have a mother
who happens to be the former producer of the show...
<snip about Suder>
>
> Well, as far as I'm concerned dying to help save the ship was the best resolution for
> the character. He was interesting in the same morbid way some people are fascinated by
> pictures of the unfortunate Princess Di's death. Not my cup of tea. I am no firm believer
> in capital punishment, but neither do I mourn for Jeffrey Dahlmer or ST's less extreme
> example Suder. His death touched me, his life repulsed me.
His life prior to "Meld" repulsed me as well - but his change and his
attempt to become a better person moved me
<back to Vorik>
> > even if a real Vulcan would never do that (and even though it was
> > almost like saying: if the woman isn't willing - take her by force)?
> >
>
> Exactly. When my friend who'd taped this show for me told me about it I was a little
> put off. He said it wasn't as bad as it sounded and I suppose from a dramatic point he was
> right, but the mythos took some heavy damage precisely because of what you brought up.
See? That's one of the reasons why I don't like the guy. His behavior
contradicts almost everything we know about Vulcans and it is
detrimental to the image we have of that species.
> What are we supposed to believe? That Vulcans get so unhinged that they will use any
> available receptacle willing or not? *Yuck*
Obviously - and in contradiction to what we have seen in "Amok Time"
where Spock chased the (most likely willing) woman out of his quarters
and threw the bowl of soup after her, most likely for her own
protection ...
I sometimes whine that ST races are not alien
> enough, and I suppose this would qualify as alien, but not exactly what I had in mind for
> Vulcans. I suppose one could make the argument that that's why the Ponn Farr is such a
> humiliating experience for Vulcans, and why it is hinted at being so primitive. I could
> have done without this revelation.
so could I - but the producers and writers apparently think all we
want to see is sex and crime...
> For the good of my enjoyment of the show I prefer to forget it happened like the Warp
> Ten Slime Puppy Threshold.
so do I, only, every time I see Vorik I am reminded of it - while
nothing reminds me of the baby salamanders...
Except this could be construed as far more offensive. The show
> itself wasn't half bad after that part, but I'm not likely to re-watch it soon without
> remembering what it made me consider the first time around. I am not about to blame Vorik
> or Alexander Enberg for his role in this, as Alex was not about to say no.
Definitely not - since the role was apparently written for him...
I kind of
> wonder if Tim Russ turned this down
No, he didn't, it was always conceived for somebody else. If it were
as you suspect he would say so, since he gets the question about Tuvok
and pon farr quite often. I've read several more recent interviews
with him and he *never* said that he had turned down the episode
because it was too ludicrous (though I am convinced he would have, had
they asked him to do it). But he *is* trying to explain away the fact
that Tuvok hasn't had pon farr yet when he should have had it, though
without much success (e.g. "maybe when Tuvok said he had been married
for 67 years he was talking in Vulcan years and they are longer than
human years" - yeah, sure, when a Vulcan, who is representing the
Federation, is talking to a Banean he would further complicate the
conversation by not using the common Federation time measurements...
but what else can he say under the circumstances? "Well, the producer
rather wanted to see her son in the part of the Vulcan in pon farr and
therefore I didn't stand a chance"? Saying things like that - although
that's most likely the truth - wouldn't do him a lot of good)
so it was rewritten for Vorik, or if this was a Vorik
> vehicle the whole way. This NG, and it's insiders, has given me the impression of the
> latter, but nothing definite.
see above. Also, why would any of the writers/producers use the poor
excuse: "we couldn't do it with Tuvok since he is married", as they
have done in several interviews, if all they have to say to appease
outraged fans is: "He didn't want it".
> I know you're convinced that the mere existence of Vorik is an affront to Star Trek,
> The Federation, Vulcans in general, The Screen Actors Guild, Tuvok and most importantly
> Tim Russ.
Well, see above - I don't envy Tim Russ the situation he is in when he
has to find an excuse with media representatives (or fans at
conventions) why TPTB don't seem to think that Tuvok deserves a pon
farr-story...
I however do not see the complete lack of talent you are referring to.
I went
> back and watched "Lower Decks" and I watched him closely and didn't see what you were
> referring to. I remember the Tim Lynch review said he was kind of weak, but did not
> postulate that he was the worst actor ever to appear on Trek , which is what you sometimes
> seem to imply.
He just is no Vulcan. Maybe he could do a great human character, e.g.
a spoiled brat in some sitcom or something like that, but he has no
clue what a Vulcan is all about. He lacks the dignity and the inner
calm this race has.
I am also not convinced that Vorik's mere existence necessarily
detracts
> from Tuvok.
Well, since *Vorik* got the one and only story they ever did about
Vulcan culture, while Tuvok can do the umpteenth mind meld which plays
an important part in his latest investigation...
Vorik has had exactly one show of any significance, and this does not
> necessarily mean that he will be stealing screen time from Tuvok.
This one show was the one and only show in four years about Vulcan
culture - and Tuvok was nothing but background decoration, while Vorik
was the featured character... Does that bode well for possible future
stories about Vulcan culture?
A Vulcan episode could
> well be written without Vorik in radar range.
But is it? There is no other Vulcan episode and the one and only there
is, features Vorik, and *not* Tuvok.
This would not be the first time such an
> omission has happened.
well, given his family ties I doubt this would happen...
Or an ep could be written where we get to see Good Vulcan/Bad
> Vulcan
Well, we already had *that*, only the other way round, in "Alter Ego":
Tuvok: stupid Vulcan, who can't interact with colleagues and has
nobody to talk to at a party but what he considers to be a hologram;
Vorik: great Vulcan, who behaves like a human, is wearing a hawaii
shirt and socializes like one of them... (that scene was at least as
out of character for a Vulcan as his behavior in "Blood Fever",
therefore my complaint about "poorly written character"...)
and if circumstances are as you say, Vorik will get run over. I
promise to
> scrutinize him closely if he does get into any eps.
Do that - compare him to any of the main Vulcan characters, Spock,
Sarek, Tuvok.
<back to Suder>
> > as I pointed out before, he was changing and he was actually trying
> > hard to make up for his past failures. His reluctance to ever commit a
> > violent act again in "Basics II" was a wonderful way to show how far
> > the character had come...
> >
>
> Hmm...let me put it this way. If Suder was instead a person who raped and/or killed
> Wildman would you have any sympathy for him at all? Or would you be rather glad he expired
> gracefully?
you have a point here - the fact that we didn't meet Suder's victim
makes it easier for us to accept him when he is changing...
I'm sorry, I can understand how Suder may be an intellectually
fascinating
> character, played by an excellent actor, but what he had done comes between me and any
> sympathy for his character.
okay, I *do* understand your point, but I still find him very
fascinating and I am sorry that he was killed off.
Vorik never got anywhere with his advance and was stomped on
> most thoroughly. It was more offensive for what it implied rather that what actually
> happened, and maybe my imagination is a bit macabre at times.
Did he really not get *anywhere*? I thought he had managed to initiate
the marital bond and that that was the reason why B'Elanna went
through pon farr! Well, that's a lot of damage and it's also quite
offensive in my opinion...
But Suder? We know damn well
> what he did and saw the consequences. Now imagine the scene from the Wildman scenario I
> presented and I may be able to get across why I didn't want to get close to Suder.
I give you that - but I *still* like him!
> > Maybe that explains why you don't find Vorik that bad - he is indeed
> > more like a Romulan than a Vulcan in several ways
> >
>
> You may have something here. Far too often since TOS Romulans have been portrayed as
> little but second rate Vulcans. That may be why I don't see Vorik as such an awful Vulcan
> as IMHO he's better than the usual crop of Romulans.
only I expect totally different things from a Vulcan than from a
Romulan. So if somebody is supposed to play a Vulcan and he is overly
emotional (especially displaying a certain emotional arrogance as does
Enberg) he strikes me as a poor Vulcan. If that's the best he can do
when trying to portray a Vulcan, I am not impressed with his acting
talents. If he were trying to portray a Romulan - which he isn't - I
might be more impressed - unless of course the results of his attempts
to portray a Romulan differ significantly from his way of playing a
Vulcan....
<list of actors who played convincing Romulans snipped, since I agree
and have nothing to add>
Virtually any of the
> others could have been played by Enberg with no loss in quality.
Only that he isn't supposed to play a Romulan, but a Vulcan and that
by playing a Vulcan the way a Romulan should be played he shows that
he has no clue about what Vulcans are supposed to be...
How about the clown in
> "Message in a Bottle"? Could anyone, including assumed leper Alex, have done a worse job?
I don't see much difference between these two (except that we won't
have to endure said clown again, while Alex will most likely come back
to haunt us...)
> Granted the part was written poorly, but the guy playing it certainly didn't add anything
> to the part.
agreed - see above.
The only Romulan on the ship with an ounce of sense or ability was the
> suspicious female sub-commander and again she was nothing but a second rate Vulcan IMHO.
she was also better written than the above-mentioned "clown"
> If I see Enberg as not that bad as a Vulcan, its because he might actually make a passable
> Romulan, compared to what we've seen.
And I see him as that bad a Vulcan for the same reason - since I
expect Vulcans to be different from Romulans and he apparently either
doesn't have a clue what he is doing or doesn't care how he should
portray the character or is not able to play him more convincingly.
> But no one's totally worthless! If you can find a place in your heart for Suder, how
> can you deny at least a smidgen of compassion for Enberg. Their situations are hardly
> comparable....
hardly comparable, indeed. Suder is a fictional character who -
although written as a vicious murderer - didn't do any *real* harm in
the *real* world - while Enberg is doing the Vulcan race some heavy
disservice and the introduction of his character has negatively
affected Tuvok (who is already underused without losing a potentially
good story to a newcomer)
> > >[Snip assumption that Robin Curtis brought something to the part of Savvik....We will
> > remain calm and polite...calm and polite...it's totally off subject and we've written
> > enough already....calm and polite....:)]
I guess now you understand how *I* feel every time somebody tells me
Enberg has some redeeming acting qualities...
> > it's of course not offensive that they make it look like the only
> > black character is not a real man any more (strangely enough it was
> > "Blood Fever" where they brought up the subject of Tuvok having an
> > artificial joint in the elbow due to an injury - makes you wonder what
> > other kinds of injury they want us to believe that guy has had over
> > the years...)
> >
>
> Umm... This is meant mostly in jest or frustration, is it not?
I don't know. Do you have any other explanation for the fact that
Tuvok did *not* get the pon farr when he should have? I wonder what
the studio wants us to believe... It *is* quite obvious, though, that
they are avoiding stories about Tuvok and sexuality at all costs -
that goes as far as not even properly developing the relationship he
has with his wife (e.g. how the separation from her affects him -
they've done a bit of that for his kids, but nothing for the wife),
they hardly ever mention that wife or the fact that he is married
(there was exactly one reference to that marriage in the whole season,
the letter he got from her in "Hunters" - which didn't tell us
anything about her relationship with him, only about the new family of
their son...). So, I really don't know - since he doesn't get the pon
farr when he should, does that not mean that he *can't* be a normal,
healthy Vulcan man?
That reluctance to do anything about Tuvok and sexuality is even more
noticeable since they go to great lengths to do something in that
direction with *every single* other character. They even made sure to
mention that the Doctor is "fully functional". So can you tell me why
Tuvok is treated like a genderless entity and they don't even develop
his relationship with his wife??? What's their intention??? What do
they try to tell us here?
<about Jeri Taylor>
> I had gathered she was forced out and it wasn't a pleasant situation. Of course I have
> no idea what really happened, but if she was, why would she retain control over anything?
I am not so sure - I read that she'll still write the occasional
episode and maybe even direct one... (of course compared to her
previous position as executive producer such a minor involvement could
mean that she was forced out and this is just to make things look
better in public...)
> Heard she might be directing an ep which implies it was a 'mutual parting of ways' as with
> Lien. But of course no one really believes that here any ways....
Well, as for Lien, rumours indicate, that she was a victim of Jeri
Taylor, so if Jeri Taylor has to go now that sounds like poetic
justice to me (I miss Lien a lot)
> You may be out of luck. I heard you're required to say "I have nothing against the
> actor but the character would make great reactor fuel" three times under a lie
> detector....
Too bad! Since I *do* find his acting terrible and completely out of
place for a Vulcan...
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
> > > it's of course not offensive that they make it look like the only
> > > black character is not a real man any more (strangely enough it was
> > > "Blood Fever" where they brought up the subject of Tuvok having an
> > > artificial joint in the elbow due to an injury - makes you wonder what
> > > other kinds of injury they want us to believe that guy has had over
> > > the years...)
> >
> > Umm... This is meant mostly in jest or frustration, is it not?
>
> Joking, I hope. Even *I* think this is going over the top...
Well, then maybe you have another explanation why Tuvok doesn't get
the pon farr when he should? Surely a normal, healthy Vulcan man (as
he appears to be) would get it at the appropriate time - unless of
course we are given an explanation for this strange phenomenon which
of course nobody bothered to give us?
And given their reluctance to do *anything* about Tuvok and sexuality
- they take it as far as not even developing his relationship with his
wife - I would not be surprised if that's *exactly* what they want us
to believe
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
>
> Thank You, But is it possible we will see a Ponn Farr ep with Tuvok?
Are you kidding? These writers and producers keep repeating that it is
*impossible* to do it with Tuvok since he is married! (I know that's a
lame excuse - but do you really expect them to admit that it was a
mistake not to do it with Tuvok in the first place and to correct that
mistake?)
I have
> read that he was due last year,
that's right - but these writers and producers didn't care a bit for
*him* ...
Might make for interesting contrast between
> the two.
That's reason #2 why it won't happen: Tim Russ would be so much better
than Alexander Enberg which is of course undesirable in the eyes of
Enberg's relatives...
> Lisa Klink was the one that wrote "Favorite Son" was she not?
yes, that's her
For some
> reason that story reminded me of "Threshold", Interesting beginning (young
> ensign has done something Really Bad for which there might be Consequences)
> that deteriorated rapidly into well, nonsense. Did she write any decent eps?
>
"Blood Fever". No, that's no joke, she wrote that, too. Among her
better work is "Resistance", "Innocence", "Remember" and "Warlord", oh
and "Message in a Bottle".
Julianna
Klingomm1
>to work it out. And he was due in season 4. Of course there are plenty of
>things that could have interrupted it (it may have been reset to zero by
>his separation fromTuvix, or by any of the various temporal anomalies,) but
>they could at least say so...
>
And I think that's where we've been let down badly....even if it was just done
as a B plot or something, *anything* was said about it we could see some
continuity. Voyager has so much potential and I for one have always hoped that
we'd see some of the TOS spirit in it; it just never seems to make the grade
does it.
Qapla' {{{:{>
Lynn
nuqDaq yuch Dapol
Klingomm1
>
>Are you kidding? These writers and producers keep repeating that it is
>*impossible* to do it with Tuvok since he is married!
Can someone explain something that is really puzzling me..why does being
married make it impoosible to do the Ponn Farr thing with Tuvok? I mean Vulcans
don't stop going through the Ponn Farr just because they're married, it still
happens to the Vulcan male every 7 years. How are the producers going to keep
any kind of continuity to the show if the continue to refuse to acknowledge
Tuvok and the Ponn Farr? I don't mind if they cover it as a B plot to an
episode but it seems that it'll at least need a mention at some time.
Dangermouse
Rob_Rey <rob...@att.net> wrote
> > It was always intended for Vorik - he was introduced in Fair Trade and
> > Alter Ego specifically to set up his presence for Blood Fever.
>
> Thank You, But is it possible we will see a Ponn Farr ep with Tuvok?
I'd love to say yes - and knowing Brannon's predilection for using the same
storylines over and over you'd think it was likely, but somehow I doubt it.
Unless I wrote it, which I'm not going to because someone else on here
independently arrived at the same basic storyline in another thread.
> I have
> read that he was due last year, and realize duplication is a no-no, but
we've
> had several 'Never Happened' eps starting with "Time and Again" and the
recent
> "Year of Hell" and it's prelude. Might make for interesting contrast
between
> the two.
It certainly would, given that the driving force would be Tuvok's desire
*not* to betray T'Pel.
> [Snip Tuvok Castration Theory]
Which I didn't write anyway
> > No, that was Lisa Klink. Jeri Taylor did choose to retire (although
whether
> > she'd have been fired if she didn't...? We'll never know. Doesn't
matter
> > anyway.)
>
> Lisa Klink was the one that wrote "Favorite Son" was she not?
Yep. Harry Kim on Castle Anthrax.
> For some
> reason that story reminded me of "Threshold", Interesting beginning
(young
> ensign has done something Really Bad for which there might be
Consequences)
> that deteriorated rapidly into well, nonsense. Did she write any decent
eps?
Innocence (good character piece for Tuvok that only really falls apart with
a dumb SF cliche at the very end)
.
<glacie...@hotmail.com> writes
Well, I think we could go on and on without convincing each other of the
opposite position. That`s why I am now only answering to some points
instead of repeating myself.
>but that he doesn`t get it
>> is certainly not Vorik`s fault.
>
>Are you sure? They introduced Vorik specifically to do pon farr
>without Tuvok (he came out of nowhere about 2 episodes before "Blood
>Fever"!), since they didn't want to do it with Tuvok, but definitely
>wanted to do it, since it's such a cool concept - apparently way too
>cool to be wasted on Tuvok (who is only good for mind melds) ...
>If Vorik had been there for a year or so, okay, then I would
>understand the need to explain how *he* deals with pon farr, but he
>wasn't. He was introduced exclusively to provide them with a chance to
>use the cool pon farr concept without having to involve Tuvok (and to
>provide the producer's son with a recurring part...).
>
I think your hatred of Vorik is clouding your perspective at least
somewhat. I am sure that Vorik wasn`t introduced because of having a pon
farr episode with him, the authors probably only saw this as an
opportunity for a good story without the problems they saw in using
Tuvok for it, simple as that. I am sure that none of them think that
Tuvok is only good for mind melds!
>> I have seen all Voyager episodes but I can`t remember a hint that Tuvok
>> was due in the past season.
>
>
>If I remember correctly, Vulcans go into
>> pon-farr every 7 years. This would mean that it should at the very least
>> be dealt with in the 7th season.
>
>well, as I said, it's been 10 x 7 years since his first pon farr, yet
>nobody bothered to give an explanation of *some* kind, either how he
>survived it or why he did *not* get it when he should have - which is,
>IMO, damaging to the character
>
I am not convinced that this mathematical approach is really the correct
way to look at it. There can be numerous reasons why this or that pon
farr was delayed and I also don`t think that each pon farr always
results in a child being conceived - or Spock would have to have LOTS of
children! Also Tuvok would have more than four. Speaking of this topic,
I think Vulcan fans might find the new Star Trek series New Frontier by
Peter David very interesting (I certainly do)! It deals with the pon-
farr topic in a very thoughtful manner and also shows an example why a
pon farr can happen at unpredicted times.
>> Voyager is strange in this regard. To say it bluntly, we got the
>> introduction of the Baywatch program for a time, the introduction of
>> Deanna-like outfits and a more "sexy" mane for Kes until she was fired
>> anyway also because she was not attractive enough
>
>that is the second thing about Voyager which offends me. I liked Kes
>very much and the way she was treated is as bad as what they did to
>Tuvok. What is worse, these two "victims" of Jeri Taylor are two of
>the best actors of the cast...
>
Victims of Jeri Taylor? No, it was not her. I wrote to her last year and
also mentioned this development. She added in her handwriting to the
standard letter that firing Jennifer Lien was not her idea. I also doubt
it that the introduction of these "sex" elements was her idea, that very
much smells like a man`s idea.
>Julianna
Baerbel Haddrell
James Grady Ward
>
> >> Thank You, But is it possible we will see a Ponn Farr ep with Tuvok?
> >
> >*impossible* to do it with Tuvok since he is married!
>
> Can someone explain something that is really puzzling me..why does being
> married make it impoosible to do the Ponn Farr thing with Tuvok? I mean Vulcans
> don't stop going through the Ponn Farr just because they're married, it still
> happens to the Vulcan male every 7 years. How are the producers going to keep
> any kind of continuity to the show if the continue to refuse to acknowledge
> Tuvok and the Ponn Farr? I don't mind if they cover it as a B plot to an
> episode but it seems that it'll at least need a mention at some time.
Simple, Ponn Farr is related to the Vulcan male suppressing their
sexual drives. Presumably an ummarried Vulcan male would never have
had sex unless some odd circumstances are involved. Once a Vulcan male
has been married for nearly 70 years and has had 3( or was it 4)
children,
there is probably much less pent up sexual tension. This is from having
been able to be with his wife for the last 10 Ponn Farrs( assuming the
marriage is lined up with one of them, as appeared to be the case when
we saw Spocks "wedding"), as well as the said Vulcan male being close to
if not beyond middle age which does result in at least some lessing of
a males sexual drive( not always, but on average a 40-50 year old male
does have less interest in sex than a 20-30 year old male does). Those
two details together do make it reasonable that Tuvok could well deal
with
Ponn Farr by the meditation path.
And some of the comments made on the show do clearly suggest that
Ponn Farr becomes less of a problem as a Vulcan gets older. So not
making
a big deal about Ponn Farr and Tuvok is being consistent with what they
have said Ponn Farr is.
--
buckysan
annapuma and unapumma in 98
44% of people think there is intelligent life besides earth
44% of people think there is intelligent life in washington DC
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > Joking, I hope. Even *I* think this is going over the top...
>
> Well, then maybe you have another explanation why Tuvok doesn't get
> the pon farr when he should? Surely a normal, healthy Vulcan man (as
> he appears to be) would get it at the appropriate time - unless of
> course we are given an explanation for this strange phenomenon which
> of course nobody bothered to give us?
Playing devil's advocate for a moment,
Well, given the number of temporal anomalies they've gone through...
Or having been combined with Neelix as Tuvix and then separated might have
reset it to zero.
Or it could in fact have come while trapped in the holodeck in Killing Game
- nobody would have second thoughts about the local barman and his singer
having a fling, and people in world war 2 would know nothing about pon
farr.
Shall I continue? remember I do this for a living...
> And given their reluctance to do *anything* about Tuvok and sexuality
> - they take it as far as not even developing his relationship with his
> wife - I would not be surprised if that's *exactly* what they want us
> to believe
No, they want us to believe that he cured it by meditations, which is why
he recommended that for Vorik. Which is bollocks, of course, but that's
what they want us to believe.
Admiral Asimov
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<35A28D...@hotmail.com>...
Isn't it possible for a Vulcan to go through Ponn Farr in a holodeck?
Maybe that's how Tuvok took care of it.
Admiral Asimov
> > Julianna Feigl wrote:
> >
> > wonder if Tim Russ turned this down
>
> No, he didn't, it was always conceived for somebody else. If it were
> as you suspect he would say so, since he gets the question about Tuvok
> and pon farr quite often. I've read several more recent interviews
> with him and he *never* said that he had turned down the episode
> because it was too ludicrous (though I am convinced he would have, had
> they asked him to do it). But he *is* trying to explain away the fact
> that Tuvok hasn't had pon farr yet when he should have had it, though
> without much success (e.g. "maybe when Tuvok said he had been married
> for 67 years he was talking in Vulcan years and they are longer than
> human years" - yeah, sure, when a Vulcan, who is representing the
> Federation, is talking to a Banean he would further complicate the
> conversation by not using the common Federation time measurements...
> but what else can he say under the circumstances? "Well, the producer
> rather wanted to see her son in the part of the Vulcan in pon farr and
> therefore I didn't stand a chance"? Saying things like that - although
> that's most likely the truth - wouldn't do him a lot of good)
>racefully?
>
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > > Maybe that explains why you don't find Vorik that bad - he is indeed
> > > more like a Romulan than a Vulcan in several ways
> > >
> >
> > You may have something here. Far too often since TOS Romulans have
been portrayed as
> > little but second rate Vulcans. That may be why I don't see Vorik as
such an awful Vulcan
> > as IMHO he's better than the usual crop of Romulans.
>
> only I expect totally different things from a Vulcan than from a
> Romulan.
I'm trying to remember who/what it was that I said a while back that Enberg
would actually be good as - a Lore type psycho android, that was it. His
persona reminds me very much of Lore...
He might have actually done well as the other hologram in Revulsion.
(But I still think he's talentless crap getting jobs on mommy's apron
strings - just so's you don't think I'm going soft here)
Dangermouse
James Grady Ward <jgw...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote
>
> And some of the comments made on the show do clearly suggest that
> Ponn Farr becomes less of a problem as a Vulcan gets older.
Name one.
Antony Alonso
>I'd love to say yes - and knowing Brannon's predilection for using the same
>storylines over and over you'd think it was likely, but somehow I doubt it.
I'd assume this would be due to the possible "public fallout" in protraying
a married man "straying" into the arms of another woman because the NETWORKS
don't think viewers would understand the compelling need of this, right? It
boggles my mind where networks draw their lines in various aspects --- such
practices are not consistent nor logical. Such as life, I guess...
>Unless I wrote it, which I'm not going to because someone else on here
>independently arrived at the same basic storyline in another thread.
The idea of Pon Farr for Tuvok, or the specific storyline and resolution
you'd have picked? This a copywrite issue in the sense of potetiality for
lawsuit fodder then?
>It certainly would, given that the driving force would be Tuvok's desire
>*not* to betray T'Pel.
Shhh... the public's dumb, they'd not get that :P
Antony Alonso
>Isn't it possible for a Vulcan to go through Ponn Farr in a holodeck?
>Maybe that's how Tuvok took care of it.
I believe the holodeck solution was either hinted at or attempted but
in a different manner than you'd think in "Blood Fever." It didn't work.
Antony Alonso
>(But I still think he's talentless crap getting jobs on mommy's apron
>strings - just so's you don't think I'm going soft here)
Ah... either you saw my mommy's apron strings comment or used that phrase
coincidental to mine :)
Antony Alonso
>I think your hatred of Vorik is clouding your perspective at least
>somewhat. I am sure that Vorik wasn`t introduced because of having a pon
>farr episode with him, the authors probably only saw this as an
>opportunity for a good story without the problems they saw in using
>Tuvok for it, simple as that. I am sure that none of them think that
>Tuvok is only good for mind melds!
You don't find it odd he wasn't really introduced as a character but made
a physical appearance in an ep or two directly prior to "Blood Fever" and
then like totally disappearing right after that?
>I am not convinced that this mathematical approach is really the correct
>way to look at it. There can be numerous reasons why this or that pon
>farr was delayed and I also don`t think that each pon farr always
Well, you don't think Janeway would at least casually mention it as she
obviously considers Tuvok her closest friend? I mean how about like
*SOMETHING* being said so we can feel the issue addressed, eh?
>I think Vulcan fans might find the new Star Trek series New Frontier by
>Peter David very interesting (I certainly do)! It deals with the pon-
>farr topic in a very thoughtful manner and also shows an example why a
>pon farr can happen at unpredicted times.
Which in turn isn't Canon. Interesting maybe, but definitely not "official"
by any stretch.
>Victims of Jeri Taylor? No, it was not her. I wrote to her last year and
>also mentioned this development. She added in her handwriting to the
>standard letter that firing Jennifer Lien was not her idea. I also doubt
>it that the introduction of these "sex" elements was her idea, that very
>much smells like a man`s idea.
Well, would *YOU* admit it if it were true? Have we seen Alexander Enberg
in anything else? (I realize this isn't one of the 'two' victims, but it
does concern a direct correlation with Tuvok's loss of potential storyline
even so).
Julianna Feigl
> > the pon farr when he should? Surely a normal, healthy Vulcan man (as
> > he appears to be) would get it at the appropriate time - unless of
> > course we are given an explanation for this strange phenomenon which
> > of course nobody bothered to give us?
>
> Playing devil's advocate for a moment,
>
> Well, given the number of temporal anomalies they've gone through...
>
> Or having been combined with Neelix as Tuvix and then separated might have
> reset it to zero.
>
> Or it could in fact have come while trapped in the holodeck in Killing Game
> - nobody would have second thoughts about the local barman and his singer
> having a fling, and people in world war 2 would know nothing about pon
> farr.
>
> Shall I continue? remember I do this for a living...
Surely if any of these explanations applied to Tuvok's case they would
have told us so? (I do admit that I like the last suggestion best,
though it's particularly unlikely since that barkeeper distrusted that
singer. OTOH, he was quite close to the hostess...) But they don't
even *bother* to give us an explanation after they deliberately drew
our attention to the fact of pon farr, thus making it look like
something must be wrong with him. At the very least it shows that they
don't care a bit about that character
>
> > And given their reluctance to do *anything* about Tuvok and sexuality
> > - they take it as far as not even developing his relationship with his
> > wife - I would not be surprised if that's *exactly* what they want us
> > to believe
>
> No, they want us to believe that he cured it by meditations, which is why
> he recommended that for Vorik. Which is bollocks, of course, but that's
> what they want us to believe.
In that case they should have shown us that it works - not that it
*doesn't* work, which they succeeded perfectly in doing with "Blood
Fever". There is also the little detail that - according to
"Flashback" - Tuvok had to give up his Kolinahr-studies of 6 years
when he got his first pon farr and had to marry T'Pel - does that look
like he has the necessary mental discipline to overcome it through
meditation? And he has been away from Kolinahr and these studies for
70 years - so what are the chances that he can do now, that he is out
of practice with these disciplines, what he couldn't do 70 years ago
when he had 6 years of intensive mental training under his belt?
But even if we assume that he could somehow have survived pon farr -
the fact would still remain that *Vorik's* pon farr deserved a whole
episode devoted to it, while *Tuvok's* doesn't even deserve *one*
comment. It doesn't change the fact either, that they don't even
develop Tuvok's relationship with his wife. Does that strike you as
proof that the studio cares for that character? Does that look like
Vorik was *not* introduced at Tuvok's expenses?
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
>
> Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
> <35A28D...@hotmail.com>...
>
> Isn't it possible for a Vulcan to go through Ponn Farr in a holodeck?
> Maybe that's how Tuvok took care of it.
>
>
We saw in "Blood Fever" that no alternative route they tried for Vorik
(e.g. medical attention, meditation *and* holodeck sex) works. We also
know from "Amok Time" that at the time of pon farr Vulcans "are driven
by forces we cannot control..." Does that sound like Tuvok could have
somehow dealt with it between episodes?
Julianna
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
> For some
> > reason that story reminded me of "Threshold", Interesting beginning
(young
> > ensign has done something Really Bad for which there might be
Consequences)
> > that deteriorated rapidly into well, nonsense. Did she write any decent
eps?
> >
>
> "Blood Fever". No, that's no joke, she wrote that, too. Among her
> better work is "Resistance", "Innocence", "Remember" and "Warlord", oh
> and "Message in a Bottle".
Remember was crap.
Ali Andrews
Dangermouse wrote in message <01bdaa01$b8027560$LocalHost@lgwujvnl>...
In YOUR opinion but that doesn't make it wrong for someone else to like
it.........
Allie
x
Julianna Feigl
>
> In article <35A270...@hotmail.com>, Julianna Feigl
> <glacie...@hotmail.com> writes
>
> opposite position.
To that I agree
That`s why I am now only answering to some points
> instead of repeating myself.
>
> >Are you sure? They introduced Vorik specifically to do pon farr
> >without Tuvok (he came out of nowhere about 2 episodes before "Blood
> >Fever"!), since they didn't want to do it with Tuvok, but definitely
> >wanted to do it, since it's such a cool concept - apparently way too
> >cool to be wasted on Tuvok (who is only good for mind melds) ...
> >If Vorik had been there for a year or so, okay, then I would
> >understand the need to explain how *he* deals with pon farr, but he
> >wasn't. He was introduced exclusively to provide them with a chance to
> >use the cool pon farr concept without having to involve Tuvok (and to
> >provide the producer's son with a recurring part...).
> >
>
> I think your hatred of Vorik is clouding your perspective at least
> somewhat. I am sure that Vorik wasn`t introduced because of having a pon
> farr episode with him,
but he *did* show up for the first time only two episodes prior to
"Blood Fever" (the production order of season 3 is: "Alter Ego" -
Vorik's first appearance ever, then "Fair Trade", which aired before
the latter and where he has a few lines as well, then "Blood
Fever"...). They *were* already working on "a" pon farr-story at that
time and needed a Vulcan, since they didn't want to use Tuvok, so they
introduced Vorik and let him have a few lines in two episodes so that
at the given moment the audience would know him. Then they did some
juggling with the episodes, airing them out of production order (that
way the later, Vorik-less "Coda" aired before "Blood Fever") and put
in one or two reruns before "Blood Fever" to give the impression that
Vorik had been around for a while. And after "Blood Fever" he wasn't
seen again for the rest of the season. That does *not* look like he
was introduced exclusively for pon farr - so that they could write a
pon farr episode without Tuvok? (and need I remind you that the next
time he appeared, half a year later, was in an episode written by his
mom?)
the authors probably only saw this as an
> opportunity for a good story without the problems they saw in using
> Tuvok for it, simple as that.
They saw that as a way to do pon farr without Tuvok, since for Tom and
B'Elanna they could have done something else entirely, neither of them
needs pon farr to get them together...
I am sure that none of them think that
> Tuvok is only good for mind melds!
Then why do they use him almost exclusively in mind meld-situations?
Just have a look at the episodes where he is more or less prominent:
"Ex Post Facto", "Cold Fire", "Meld", "Flashback", "Warlord", "The
Gift", "Random Thoughts": it's the mind meld over and over again and
hardly ever anything else... And when they *finally* do something else
about Vulcans, they don't need Tuvok for it...
> >If I remember correctly, Vulcans go into
> >> pon-farr every 7 years. This would mean that it should at the very least
> >> be dealt with in the 7th season.
> >
> >well, as I said, it's been 10 x 7 years since his first pon farr, yet
> >nobody bothered to give an explanation of *some* kind, either how he
> >survived it or why he did *not* get it when he should have - which is,
> >IMO, damaging to the character
> >
>
> I am not convinced that this mathematical approach is really the correct
> way to look at it. There can be numerous reasons why this or that pon
> farr was delayed
so what would be the problem with giving us that information? Surely
if TPTB want us to think that Tuvok's cycle is somewhat off because of
this or that reason and he therefore isn't due yet they would tell us?
But obviously they don't care what kind of conclusions we might draw
from the evidence they've given us so far - Tuvok and pon farr is
apparently of *no* interest whatsoever in their opinion, since he
doesn't even deserve that one-line-explanation...
and I also don`t think that each pon farr always
> results in a child being conceived - or Spock would have to have LOTS of
> children! Also Tuvok would have more than four.
I never said I believed that each pon farr results in a child...
Speaking of this topic,
> I think Vulcan fans might find the new Star Trek series New Frontier by
> Peter David very interesting (I certainly do)! It deals with the pon-
> farr topic in a very thoughtful manner and also shows an example why a
> pon farr can happen at unpredicted times.
I've read that as well, but a) it's not canon and b) it contradicts ST
III, since it assumes that female Vulcans go through pon farr as
well... and c) if a pon farr can happen even at unpredicted times -
then surely it should at least happen at the predicted times?
> Victims of Jeri Taylor? No, it was not her. I wrote to her last year and
> also mentioned this development. She added in her handwriting to the
> standard letter that firing Jennifer Lien was not her idea.
...as if she would have admitted to a concerned fan that it was *her*
idea to fire a popular actress... She *was* the one in charge at that
time and had the ultimate decision in such things. So even if it was
*not* her idea she sanctioned it when her veto could have prevented it
...
I also doubt
> it that the introduction of these "sex" elements was her idea, that very
> much smells like a man`s idea.
Once again: she *was* the one in charge at that time - she wouldn't
have had to listen to anybody.
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
>
> >> Thank You, But is it possible we will see a Ponn Farr ep with Tuvok?
> >
> >Are you kidding? These writers and producers keep repeating that it is
> >*impossible* to do it with Tuvok since he is married!
>
> Can someone explain something that is really puzzling me..why does being
> married make it impoosible to do the Ponn Farr thing with Tuvok?
I don't understand it either - but that's the one and only reason TPTB
give us why they don't do it with him. I think their problem is, they
believe that some would be offended if he betrayed his wife (despite
the fact that this wife is so rarely mentioned that we tend to forget
her... and his relationship with her hasn't been explored anyway) -
but who says he has to? It's their *job* to come up with possible
explanations and to find a believable way out of it for him. Ignoring
it completely doesn't do the job, it only makes us wonder what could
be wrong with him since he doesn't get it when he should - therefore I
find their attitude of ignoring the problem with Tuvok (especially
since Vorik apparently deserved their attention) much more offending
than I could ever find actually seeing him in pon farr - even if that
meant he has to physically betray his wife.
I mean Vulcans
> don't stop going through the Ponn Farr just because they're married, it still
> happens to the Vulcan male every 7 years.
exactly my opinion
How are the producers going to keep
> any kind of continuity to the show if the continue to refuse to acknowledge
> Tuvok and the Ponn Farr? I don't mind if they cover it as a B plot to an
> episode but it seems that it'll at least need a mention at some time.
that's exactly my point - and the fact that they apparently don't
care, since they never bring it up in any form, is offensive in my
opinion. (e.g. wouldn't it be logical that Tuvok's colleagues, now
that they've all seen what the pon farr did to Vorik and B'Elanna,
would at least be a *little* bit concerned about when this will happen
to him and what he is planning to do about it? Surely Janeway would
want to know if she has reason to fear that her best friend and third
in command might die in pon farr anytime soon, or if there is a chance
he can survive it without his wife or if - in the very likely case
that he cannot - he would be willing to consider physically betraying
T'Pel? Or maybe the Doctor would try to address the problem, after all
physical conditions and the physical wellbeing of the crew are his
domaine...)
Julianna
Dangermouse
Antony Alonso <Night...@Clarksburg.com> wrote
> >I'd love to say yes - and knowing Brannon's predilection for using the
same
> >storylines over and over you'd think it was likely, but somehow I doubt
it.
>
> I'd assume this would be due to the possible "public fallout" in
protraying
> a married man "straying" into the arms of another woman because the
NETWORKS
> don't think viewers would understand the compelling need of this, right?
No, but I'm sure Jeri Taylor will be glad to know you believe and expand
upon her laughable excuses.
No, I meant because some producers will say "but we did a pon farr show"
while the others say "if we need romance, give it to Chuckles or Tom,
they're the ones supposed to be ladykillers"
> >Unless I wrote it, which I'm not going to because someone else on here
> >independently arrived at the same basic storyline in another thread.
>
> The idea of Pon Farr for Tuvok, or the specific storyline and resolution
> you'd have picked?
The specific storyline.
> This a copywrite issue in the sense of potetiality for
> lawsuit fodder then?
Probably not, but people could try it anyway.
Dangermouse
.. <Em...@trekdata.demon.co.uk> wrote
> Victims of Jeri Taylor? No, it was not her. I wrote to her last year and
> also mentioned this development. She added in her handwriting to the
> standard letter that firing Jennifer Lien was not her idea.
Firing a member of the cast and replacing that person with Seven was not
her idea.
Maneuvring it to be Jennifer, on the other hand...
> it that the introduction of these "sex" elements was her idea, that very
> much smells like a man`s idea.
Oh, that was her. The whole J/C arc was her personal Mary Sue story, and
she's admitted as much in interviews.
And yes, Vorik was introduced especially for the pon farr story.
Dangermouse
Klingomm1 <klin...@aol.com> wrote
> Can someone explain something that is really puzzling me..why does being
> married make it impoosible to do the Ponn Farr thing with Tuvok?
Some "fans" have claimed that TPTB don't want to show Tuvok behaving
adulterously. This is of course nonsense, as surely the point of doing the
story with him would be to show him *resisting* being adulterous...
> I mean Vulcans
> don't stop going through the Ponn Farr just because they're married, it
still
> happens to the Vulcan male every 7 years.
That's right.
> How are the producers going to keep
> any kind of continuity to the show if the continue to refuse to
acknowledge
> Tuvok and the Ponn Farr?
They're not - they just don't give a shit.
> I don't mind if they cover it as a B plot to an
> episode but it seems that it'll at least need a mention at some time.
It does need a mention.
Dangermouse
Admiral Asimov <rhan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<01bdaa00$8e68d9c0$93c3...@RHaney01.netcom.com>...
>
>
> Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
> <35A28D...@hotmail.com>...
>
> Isn't it possible for a Vulcan to go through Ponn Farr in a holodeck?
> Maybe that's how Tuvok took care of it.
No, they tried it in Blood Fever but it didn't work.
Julianna Feigl
> Simple, Ponn Farr is related to the Vulcan male suppressing their
> sexual drives.
...according to "Amok Time" pon farr is related to the Vulcans in
general suppressing their *emotions* for the rest of the time...
Presumably an ummarried Vulcan male would never have
> had sex unless some odd circumstances are involved.
...unless his first pon farr comes along...
Once a Vulcan male
> has been married for nearly 70 years and has had 3( or was it 4)
> children,
> there is probably much less pent up sexual tension.
...but there are still lots of suppressed *emotions* which need a
release... (and: it's 4 kids)
This is from having
> been able to be with his wife for the last 10 Ponn Farrs( assuming the
> marriage is lined up with one of them, as appeared to be the case when
> we saw Spocks "wedding"),
...as we know for sure is the case with Tuvok (he says in "Flashback"
that he married T'Pel during his first pon farr)...
as well as the said Vulcan male being close to
> if not beyond middle age which does result in at least some lessing of
> a males sexual drive( not always, but on average a 40-50 year old male
> does have less interest in sex than a 20-30 year old male does).
...assuming that Vulcan males are similar to human males in that
regard which has never been established anywhere... (BTW, Tuvok is
110, or will be 111 in season 5 - that's just barely closing in on
middle age, since Vulcans live well over 200 years. Sarek was over 200
and he only died because he had that disease, not, because it is
normal for a Vulcan to die at that age)
Those
> two details together do make it reasonable that Tuvok could well deal
> with
> Ponn Farr by the meditation path.
...except that he wasn't able to do that 70 years ago, although he was
very much in practice with the advanced mental disciplines of the
Kolinahr and now has been away from that for 70 years and must
therefore be rusty in that regard - that combined with the fact that
meditation is quite obviously a *very* rare exception to the rule
since we know from "Amok Time" that at the time of pon farr Vulcans
are "driven by forces we cannot control" (repeat: can *not*
control)....
>
> And some of the comments made on the show do clearly suggest that
> Ponn Farr becomes less of a problem as a Vulcan gets older.
Can you give me an example? That was *never* said or implied anywhere
(except maybe in books or fan fiction which are not considered canon)
So not
> making
> a big deal about Ponn Farr and Tuvok is being consistent with what they
> have said Ponn Farr is.
Unfortunately it isn't. See above.
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
>
> Hello Dangermouse, on 07-Jul-98 15:11:05, you said,
>
> >storylines over and over you'd think it was likely, but somehow I doubt it.
...especially after Klink and Taylor made it look in several
interviews like the fact that they don't do it with Tuvok is something
*special* - the "unexpected" thing to do... After the two ladies did
this *very special* episode where they didn't have to use Tuvok and
still could do pon farr - would Braga want to look stupid by doing the
expected and giving the regular character what he deserves?
> I'd assume this would be due to the possible "public fallout" in protraying
> a married man "straying" into the arms of another woman
who says that's what Tuvok would do? It depends on the writers how
they solve the problem. If, of course, they *can't* find a solution
that would not offend certain parts of the audience then that tells
you a lot about their professionalism, their creativity and their
willingness to think harder about the problem in order to find the
right solution for Tuvok ....
because the NETWORKS
> don't think viewers would understand the compelling need of this, right?
Depending on how it is written viewers most likely would understand it
and find it much less offensive than the blatant way in which TPTB
keep disregarding the problem...
Julianna
Dangermouse
Julianna Feigl <glacie...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> would Braga want to look stupid
He already manages that...
Julianna Feigl
>
> >"Dangermouse" <mas...@sol.co.ukDEATH-TO-SPAMMERS> wrote:
>
> > Actually he can - we can tell from his age and the ages of his kids.
>
> For a second I thought you meant that his wife had a child every seven
> years. But I gather you are going into multiples of seven from the
> likely time of conception of each offspring (assuming that the length
> of a Vulcan pregnancy is the same as a human, which I wouldn't).
> Sounds like I may have missed a thread somewhere.
>
> Okay, I'll bite - how old are his children, or any of them? I
> remember that his son had his first pon farr and that Tuvok now has a
> granddaughter, but that wouldn't nail down any ages.
I don't know where Dangermouse got that - unless of course he has
access to some material we other mere mortals will never see, like
e.g. first drafts of filmed scripts, information on upcoming episodes
or similar such staff.
We don't know how old Tuvok's kids are, only that the oldest son had
his first pon farr after Tuvok got lost in the Delta quadrant, i.e.
sometime during the past 3 years, most likely over a year ago, since
the child he fathered during that pon farr has been born already (how
long does a Vulcan pregnancy take, anyway?).
The reason why Tuvok would have been due is that he got married 70
years ago (as established in "Ex Post Facto" and "Flashback"), and
since 10 x 7 = 70 he should have undergone pon farr this season, which
of course he didn't. The writers didn't deem this fact worthy of even
one single side-line comment, they just pretend that little detail of
Vulcan physiology doesn't exist for him, which is especially stupid
since they keep reminding us of pon farr: last year we had Vorik, this
year we hear about Tuvok's son.... only Tuvok never gets it, since
it's been done already...
Julianna
Antony Alonso
>> I'd assume this would be due to the possible "public fallout" in
>> protraying a married man "straying" into the arms of another woman
>> because the NETWORKS don't think viewers would understand the
>> compelling need of this, right?
>No, but I'm sure Jeri Taylor will be glad to know you believe and expand
>upon her laughable excuses.
Doh! Ummm... did you get the idea I *believed* that nonsense? Apparently
the sarcasm didn't translate, eh? :)
>No, I meant because some producers will say "but we did a pon farr show"
>while the others say "if we need romance, give it to Chuckles or Tom,
>they're the ones supposed to be ladykillers"
But as you've said before, they have a propensity to do retreads of their
own stories ("One" along with the upcoming season ep where ALL characters
are like Seven was). I think Chakotay and Paris have had their quota for
the Delta Quadrant already; let's hope someone else who's in a position
to do something realizes this :P
>The specific storyline.
So what, do it anyway. Ideas aren't copyrighted, just specifics within
the idea.
>Probably not, but people could try it anyway.
That would be my hope.
Dangermouse
Maureen Goldman <inksl...@FOGsunshine.net> wrote
> > No, they tried it in Blood Fever but it didn't work.
>
> It didn't work for Vorik, who didn't exactly come in with an open
> mind. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for anyone.
If it worked for anyone, there wouldn't be a secretive problem about pon
farr, would there?
Dangermouse
Maureen Goldman <inksl...@FOGsunshine.net> wrote
> That's assuming adultery would be a betrayal. Vulcans are such a
> logical lot that it seems to me they would consider death a poor
> choice.
Exaclty the point of the dilemma, so what are you arguing for?
Donald Brown
been lost knowlage for thousands of years and somehow Tuvok gains this
knowlage and manages to avoide pon farr!
(i am being sarcastic)
Donald Brown
2304 then he was married at age 40. And if Tuvok turns 110 next season
then then it will be his 70th annaversey with T'Pel...they'll have to do
a pon farr episode to keep the time line straight won't they?!
Then again....
For fan-fiction that deals with Tuvok , T'Pel, and Pon Farr. If TPTB,
won't give Tuvok a pon farr episode then dammitt we will:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/shire/2649/tpont.html
Donald Brown
Antony Alonso
>...especially after Klink and Taylor made it look in several
>interviews like the fact that they don't do it with Tuvok is something
>*special* - the "unexpected" thing to do... After the two ladies did
>this *very special* episode where they didn't have to use Tuvok and
Well, I think most viewers aren't privy to these particular interviews,
which is probably for the better. I myself am not aware of them at
least. Sounds like a cop out, huh?
>still could do pon farr - would Braga want to look stupid by doing the
>expected and giving the regular character what he deserves?
We can always hope :)
>> I'd assume this would be due to the possible "public fallout" in
>> protraying a married man "straying" into the arms of another woman
>who says that's what Tuvok would do? It depends on the writers how
>they solve the problem. If, of course, they *can't* find a solution
>that would not offend certain parts of the audience then that tells
>you a lot about their professionalism, their creativity and their
>willingness to think harder about the problem in order to find the
>right solution for Tuvok ....
>>because the NETWORKS don't think viewers would understand the compelling
>>need of this, right?
>Depending on how it is written viewers most likely would understand it
>and find it much less offensive than the blatant way in which TPTB
>keep disregarding the problem...
Obviously, you and Dangermouse missed the implied sarcasm in my post. The
point is, if such practices are true, they are insulting the audience by
suggesting they don't have the capacity or understanding to deal with the
possibility.
Donald Brown
of power...this is a vulcan were talking about here.
Donald Brown
1.Tuvok goes on away mission during Pon Farr.
2.Alien women likes Tuvok, but he ignores her determined to stay
faithful to his mate.
3.Alien women accusses Tuvok of rape, or womens boyfrien/husband demands
he and Tuvok fight to the death (for honors sake.)
3.Tuvok beats the hell out of man.
4.Pon Farr is gone.
5.Tuvok goes on being unnoticed as usual.
Keith M. Kurzman
I think what Maureen's getting at, and I think I agree, is that Vulcans
wouldn't consider sex-during-pon-farr to be adultery. It's just a
necessity. No big deal. No dilemma. No episode. Well, okay. Maybe not no
episode, but the "Will Tuvok commit adultery?" angle wouldn't work, I
don't think.
--Morris Stegosaurus
Antony Alonso
>Some "fans" have claimed that TPTB don't want to show Tuvok behaving
>adulterously. This is of course nonsense, as surely the point of doing the
>story with him would be to show him *resisting* being adulterous...
Given the writing talents demonstrated thus far, you're givin them too
much credit. While you or I would tend to think along these lines others
have actively demonstrated in other situations their thinking in fact
goes out the window.
>They're not - they just don't give a shit.
Respect. They've got to learn it and earn it. So far, they don't have it
in my book for a variety of subjects and reasons. This is one of them.
>> I don't mind if they cover it as a B plot to an
>> episode but it seems that it'll at least need a mention at some time.
>It does need a mention.
Fully agree!
Donald Brown
the standard age.
Antony Alonso
>We can but hope. Even in Blood Fever, when it was obvious to everyone that
>pon farr was endangering two members of the crew, it seems not to have
>occurred to anyone to find out whether the security chief was due and how
>he would handle it.
You'd think, huh? Consider the holodeck scenario pertaining to the likelihood
of a Maqui takeover/insurrection/mutiny. They'll take that into account, but
do a logical followup --- yeah, right. Not the VOY I know ;P
>(Just after Tuvok has blown away several innocent spaceliners with quantum
>torpedoes and beat up a visiting ambassador: "Sorry captain, it's this damn
>pon farr making me bitchy..." I'd be worried about how the guy who defends
>the ship is going to deal with it!)
Actually, that *WOULD* be a funny throw away line :)
Dangermouse
Keith M. Kurzman <kmk...@is4.nyu.edu> wrote
> I think what Maureen's getting at, and I think I agree, is that Vulcans
> wouldn't consider sex-during-pon-farr to be adultery. It's just a
> necessity. No big deal. No dilemma. No episode. Well, okay. Maybe not no
> episode, but the "Will Tuvok commit adultery?" angle wouldn't work, I
> don't think.
There's still the question over his marriage though - would it be dissolved
if he had to make a new mating bond, or would he still be able to return to
T'Pel?
So still an episode...
Dangermouse
Antony Alonso <Night...@Clarksburg.com> wrote
> >The specific storyline.
>
> So what, do it anyway. Ideas aren't copyrighted, just specifics within
> the idea.
I'm not Brannon.
> >Probably not, but people could try it anyway.
>
> That would be my hope.
That they would try to sue me for using the idea?
Dangermouse
Donald Brown <dBro...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<35A3D4B9...@bellsouth.net>...
Actually that's quite a good one. (apart from point 5 obviously).
Dangermouse
Maureen Goldman <inksl...@FOGsunshine.net> wrote
> Okay, I'll bite - how old are his children, or any of them? I
> remember that his son had his first pon farr and that Tuvok now has a
> granddaughter, but that wouldn't nail down any ages.
I'm sure it was written for Innocence, but I can't be bothered to look. In
any case we know from Flashback that he married during pon farr, and from
Ex Post Facto that it was 67 years previously. Which means that his 70th
anniversary and at least tenth pon farr was due in season 4.
Keith M. Kurzman
Trouble with that angle is that it's entirely academic until they get
back. I mean, Tuvok would care... but I'm not sure I, as an audience
member would much care-- at least not unless T'Pel herself was somehow
in the episode....
Now, what if (and forgive me if this has been suggested before-- I don't
read here as often as I used to), Tuvok decides to do the adultery thing
(because it's no big deal to him, right?), and he finds a willing party
aboard Voyager: 7. She's logical enough to go in for it, no strings
attached. Then when they're done, he goes on like before, like nothing
happened (because it's no big deal to him, right?), except trouble is 7
has, like, become infatuated with him during the act.
So here we've got a story that deals with Tuvok's Pon Farr and also lets 7
deal with complex, unexpected emotions, and get more in touch with her
irrational-type human side. And of course, it reawakens Kim's resentment
of Tuvok over the "Tuvok always gets the girls I want" thing.
'Course, it IS awfully soap operaesque, but eh....
--Morris Stegosaurus
Dangermouse
Keith M. Kurzman <kmk...@is4.nyu.edu> wrote
> Now, what if (and forgive me if this has been suggested before-- I don't
> read here as often as I used to), Tuvok decides to do the adultery thing
> (because it's no big deal to him, right?), and he finds a willing party
> aboard Voyager: 7. She's logical enough to go in for it, no strings
> attached. Then when they're done, he goes on like before, like nothing
> happened (because it's no big deal to him, right?), except trouble is 7
> has, like, become infatuated with him during the act.
Basically what I've been saying ever since Prey aired...
Julianna Feigl
>
> i got it!!!
> 1.Tuvok goes on away mission during Pon Farr.
> 2.Alien women likes Tuvok, but he ignores her determined to stay
> faithful to his mate.
> 3.Alien women accusses Tuvok of rape, or womens boyfrien/husband demands
> he and Tuvok fight to the death (for honors sake.)
> 3.Tuvok beats the hell out of man.
> 4.Pon Farr is gone.
> 5.Tuvok goes on being unnoticed as usual.
Hi Donald,
I wish the Voyager-writers were as creative and imaginative as you
are! That's actually a very good scenario (apart from #5 of course,
but that will probably never change, no matter how much we
complain...)
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
>
> They'll probly just give it (Tuvok and pon farr) an 'honorable' mention.
I hope they do at least *that*! Given the little respect they've shown
for that character so far, I fear it's more likely that they'll ignore
it completely and hope we don't notice...
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
>
> I'm trying to do some math: If Tuvok was born in 2264 and married in
> 2304 then he was married at age 40. And if Tuvok turns 110 next season
he is already 110, he'll turn 111 next season (season 5 takes place in
2375)
> then then it will be his 70th annaversey with T'Pel...they'll have to do
> a pon farr episode to keep the time line straight won't they?!
he should have had his 70th anniversary already in season 4 which took
place in 2374, but of course they ignored him, since they've already
done a pon farr story last year. Apparently Vorik was more important
than Tuvok and more deserving of a pon farr story...
> Then again....
>
> For fan-fiction that deals with Tuvok , T'Pel, and Pon Farr. If TPTB,
> won't give Tuvok a pon farr episode then dammitt we will:
Couldn't we hold a contest? How many different solutions could *we*,
the audience find for Tuvok that would *not* be damaging to his
character? I've heard so many great suggestions here over the past
couple of days - I bet we could provide that guy with totally
different, highly intriguing solutions for the next 8 or 10 cycles,
every single one of which would make a better episode than "Blood
Fever" was...
But, OTOH, if there is even the slightest chance that TPTB could
reconsider and give Tuvok the pon farr episodes he deserves making too
many suggestions how it could be done here on the newsgroups could
mean that they can't do it any more for copyright reasons since all
the good solutions have been suggested here...
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
Hello Dangermouse, on 08-Jul-98 05:16:57, you said,
>
> >No, but I'm sure Jeri Taylor will be glad to know you believe and expand
> >upon her laughable excuses.
>
> Doh! Ummm... did you get the idea I *believed* that nonsense? Apparently
> the sarcasm didn't translate, eh? :)
I'm sorry, I think didn't get either...
> >No, I meant because some producers will say "but we did a pon farr show"
> >while the others say "if we need romance, give it to Chuckles or Tom,
> >they're the ones supposed to be ladykillers"
>
> But as you've said before, they have a propensity to do retreads of their
> own stories
yes, but "Blood Fever" was announced as so special since it was *not*
about Tuvok as everybody expected - so doing it now with Tuvok after
they had this *special* episode would appear dull to any writer and
therefore not worth the try
("One" along with the upcoming season ep where ALL characters
> are like Seven was). I think Chakotay and Paris have had their quota for
> the Delta Quadrant already;
especially Chakotay (I am just trying to forget the insipid
"Unforgettable" - shudder...)
let's hope someone else who's in a position
> to do something realizes this :P
check the info on upcoming episodes either here in the newsgroup or
at some of the spoiler sites - looks like these two will get some
interesting things to do in the first couple of episodes, as for
Tuvok, whose last episode with him as a featured character, was 16 (!)
episodes ago (and it wasn't even good) .... well, nothing so far
Julianna
Julianna Feigl
Dangermouse (mas...@sol.co.ukDEATH-TO-SPAMMERS) wrote:
> >
> >
> > Keith M. Kurzman <kmk...@is4.nyu.edu> wrote
> > > I think what Maureen's getting at, and I think I agree, is that Vulcans
> > > wouldn't consider sex-during-pon-farr to be adultery. It's just a
> > > necessity. No big deal. No dilemma.
There is the possibility that they see things that way: "the logical
thing to do" etc. (Who said Vulcans see things the same way humans
do?) There is of course still the possibility that Tuvok's emotional
attachment to his wife of 70 years and mother of his four kids is so
great that he somehow can't imagine having sex with somebody else...
No episode. Well, okay. Maybe not no
> > > episode, but the "Will Tuvok commit adultery?" angle wouldn't work, I
> > > don't think.
> >
> > There's still the question over his marriage though - would it be dissolved
> > if he had to make a new mating bond, or would he still be able to return to
> > T'Pel?
Yes, that would be interesting - what is the legal situation on Vulcan
for such cases: would his marriage be considered over (if it isn't
already, because of the broken mental contact), would it be the
honorable thing to do to take the lady, who has helped him through pon
farr, as his new, official/legal mate (or to at least offer her that
position), or could he still go back to T'Pel (would she *want* him
back under the circumstances?) - and (which - knowing TPTB - is of
course even less likely to happen than everything else) what if this
copulation during pon farr resulted in a child? What would be this
child's and the mother's position in a Vulcan family, assuming that
the first marriage is still valid?
> Trouble with that angle is that it's entirely academic until they get
> back. I mean, Tuvok would care... but I'm not sure I, as an audience
> member would much care-- at least not unless T'Pel herself was somehow
> in the episode....
which of course she could (e.g. Tuvok's need for her is so great that
for the first time in three or four years he succeeds in mentally
contacting her and we see the conversation they have through their
mental link - or he is delirious already because he is in a very
advanced stage of pon farr and unwilling to do something about it and
he conjures her up in his fever fantasies, or we could see a
flashback-scene with the happy couple when they were still together
...)
>
> Now, what if (and forgive me if this has been suggested before-- I don't
> read here as often as I used to), Tuvok decides to do the adultery thing
> (because it's no big deal to him, right?), and he finds a willing party
> aboard Voyager: 7. She's logical enough to go in for it,
...and seems to care enough for him that she wouldn't just stand by
and watch him die when there is something she can do about it...
no strings
> attached. Then when they're done, he goes on like before, like nothing
> happened (because it's no big deal to him, right?),
...maybe also he thinks it's the best for everybody involved to forget
about it ...
except trouble is 7
> has, like, become infatuated with him during the act.
...or realized how much he means to her when she was confronted with
the danger of losing him...
> So here we've got a story that deals with Tuvok's Pon Farr and also lets 7
> deal with complex, unexpected emotions, and get more in touch with her
> irrational-type human side.
...with the additional bonus that it would star two of the best actors
of the whole cast, whose characters already have a fantastic chemistry
and a previously established relationship with each other to build
upon ...
And of course, it reawakens Kim's resentment
> of Tuvok over the "Tuvok always gets the girls I want" thing.
which would provide an additional chance for character development
between the two men...
>
> 'Course, it IS awfully soap operaesque, but eh....
not more so than "Blood Fever" was....
>
> --Morris Stegosaurus