Borg: Powerful, But Are They That Advanced? (Was Re: How stupid are the Borg?)
Bozo the Proctologist
>There is a theory going around, that the Borg have no interest in
>assimilating humanity for the time being, that all the feeble attacks on
>Earth, and them allowing humans to beam aboard and learn about them, is
so
>that we can develop as a race. Then when the Borg decide to assimilate
us,
>they will have something a lot better to assimilate. After all we are a
>technologically inferior species to the Borg, so there would be no point
in
>assimilating us.
>
>Bozo the Proctologist <cue...@juno.com> wrote in message
>news:20000103.152509...@juno.com...
>> Truckasaurus doth write thus:
>>
<Snip discussion of *inconsistencies* in the Borg's development>
The Borg were introduced to be the baddest of the galaxy's bad guys:
powerful, relentless, implacable in their drive to assimilate anything
and everything that can add to their goal of *perfection.*
While a Battlecube is big and powerful enough, I have to wonder if the
Borg are really as advanced technologically as they seem. Certainly they
love their high tech, making it an intimate part of their bodies, as if
H. R. Giger had drawn "The Six Million Dollar Man" for Heavy Metal.....
but 24th Century Federation doctors can remove Borg tech (aside from what
Seven's become biologically dependent on. Dr. Crusher and Geordi could
even repair the damage to Geordi's pet Borg, Hugh.
When they first appeared, Q told Picard that the Borg had been
assimilating technologies (In "Q Who" there was no indication of them
assimilating people) for half a million years- yet the Borg had decided
that the tech on the Big E was something they could use. When the Cube
took a core sample, the Enterprise's phasers were able to gouge out
impressive holes in the Cube, effectively stopping it- yet, the very
first photon torpedo salvo was shrugged off by the Cube with no apparent
damage.
While thr Borg use nanoprobes to assimilate people and technology,
there's been no indication that their nanotech is more advanced than the
Feds. Voyager's Holodoc was able to reprogram Borg nanoprobes easily
enough.
When the Borg assimilate a species, what do they REALLY get out of it?
After assimilating humans and Vulcans and other Federation species (One
of the ex-drones in "Unity" had been a Science Officer) the Borg are
still unable to research anything except by assimilation (re:
"Scorpion"). Rather than adding a species *distinctiveness* to
themselves, it gets diluted and washed out when mixed in with the
Collective.
It is that weakness that prevents the Borg from actually advancing, no
matter who they assimilate. They may indeed pick up a few technotricks
here and there, like personal force fields, but the inventive genius and
creativity of assimilated drones is lost.
This could explain why they've changed their tactics, running abortive,
not-quite-successful attacks on planets like Earth: to stimulate and
drive us to developing higher technology, more advanced weapons and
deflectors, more powerful ships...... and then, once they've decided
we've really got something worth grabbing, they'll send five or ten Cubes
and really do it.
He-Who-Hopes-They-Don't-Reach-For-The-Borg-To-Pump-Up-Every-Sweeps
Sorry, my brain has a few bad sectors.
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Mark Kaiman
at cue...@juno.com wrote on 1/7/2000 15:23:
> He-Who-Hopes-They-Don't-Reach-For-The-Borg-To-Pump-Up-Every-Sweeps
>
Thats exactly what they do! Braga figures an episode that showcases the Borg
and/or Seven's T&A is destined to be a classic.
John Kang
Why not? Why develope technology yourself when you could simply "feed the
cows" for slaughter later on? We've certainly been doing it. An analogy to
the Borg would be similar to our consumption of food (energy). Plants,
undoubtedly inferior genetically to humans, are able to make their own energy
from raw materials such as decaying proteins, photon particle/waves, and
other elements. Humans have to consume other species, who had energy stored
in their bodies, in order to survive. One could say the Human race may
indeed be inferior to plantlife because we cannot create our own energy. Is
it not the same with the Borg? They don't have the innovative ability,
however, they have a higher form of society and thought. We have this
innovation feature in our species, but are socially, and culturally, inferior
to the unity of a Borg collective. How can you say that the Borg might now
be advanced merely because they have another way of gathering information and
technology?
Jdmaley mcp
assimilation.
Consider a twenty piece orchestra. Each note, each sound carried by the twenty
instruments gets blended into a whole, 'collective' song. The sound that you
get isn't terrible, but it's not terribly powerful either.
Now consider a 120 piece orchestra. One hundred more sounds, notes, textures
added to the mix, combining with the others, making the sound more beautiful
and more powerful than with merely 20 pieces. But does this mean we must have
120 different instruments? Not at all! On the contrary - assemble twelve
saxophones - bass sax, tenor sax...bring in ten french horns. Each instrument,
although some of them maybe the same, will have a different sound to it,
because each man in the orchestra has a different soul - a different
distinctivness that helps the orchestra come to life.
Now consider this theory, but replace the ten piece orchestra with a Borg
scount vessel consisting of ten drones. Ten minds, speaking as one - ten ideas
flowing together. Perhaps there are three former fed science officers. The
vessel must navigate the quickest route to Earth. one of the science officer
'drones' offers his knowledge - but the another science officer, one who was
assigned to this region of space prior to his assimilation, offers his
knowledge, which will cut two hours off the trip. The collective examines the
data and decides to take shorter course of action.
Now imagine the same scenario, but with 120 drones, say 23 of which were fed
citizens. One of them, who lived in this particular region of space, knows of
a particular anomaly that could be harmful - when the collective assimilates
this knowledge, they realize that the longer route would be more logical, with
less of a threat.
Since most Trek episodes are only an hour and the cost of extras no doubt runs
high, we don't get to see detailed scenes of what goes on within the collective
itself. We tend to assume that each distinctive voice is washed out. But when
you look at it in terms of the orchestra - all of those voices speaking
together as one, doing their part to create a sweeping masterful work of music,
then the Borg Collective almost becomes a work of art.
Every bit of knowledge, like every note of music, comes not from the drone (or
from the instrument) but from the heart and soul within the drone. That heart
and soul is ripped out of the drone and spread through the Collective so that
the whole might benefit from the knowledge of the one. Certainly there would
tend to be duplicate data in numerous drones. But each single drone brings to
the whole at least one experience that none of the others has ever known. And
it's the accumulation of these experiences that bring the Borg closer to their
idea of perfection. If you know all there is to know about everything, then
there is nothing left. The Borg, no doubt in their own shortsightedness, fail
to realize that when the entire galaxy is assimilated, then the Borg will have
defeated themselves. Much like Quinn from the Q Continuum - nothing left to
say. Or in our case, assimilate.
One last, perhaps fatal weakness to the Borg's ingenious design - when the
orchestra becomes too large, it can grow out of control and each musician gets
his own thoughts and ideas about how to play a certain piece. The Collective
brings order to chaos. But if there's one constant in the universe, it is that
there is no consistency. The Borg's ceaseless quest for perfection will end in
disaster -- let's all hope the disaster is limited to the Collective itself.
-------------------------
Captain Maley
Bozo the Proctologist
>Why not? Why develope technology yourself when you could simply "feed
the
>cows" for slaughter later on? We've certainly been doing it. An
analogy to
>the Borg would be similar to our consumption of food (energy). Plants,
>undoubtedly inferior genetically to humans, are able to make their own
energy
>from raw materials such as decaying proteins, photon particle/waves, and
>other elements.
One can gradually climb up the technological ladder the way the Borg do,
assimilating otehr technologies. My argument was that the Borg would
already be far, far ahead of where they are now IF they didn't lose the
creative, inventive elements from the individuals they assimilate.
>Humans have to consume other species, who had energy stored
>in their bodies, in order to survive. One could say the Human race may
>indeed be inferior to plantlife because we cannot create our own energy.
Is
>it not the same with the Borg? They don't have the innovative ability,
>however, they have a higher form of society and thought. We have this
>innovation feature in our species, but are socially, and culturally,
inferior
>to the unity of a Borg collective.
True..... from a Borg point of view. <G>
Seriously, the Borg are don't have a "higher" form of thought, just a
single one. One mind sharing many bodies and/or Cubes. The trouble is,
anything that one Mind doesn't (or can't) think of is beyong the ability
of the Borg, whereas anything a Starfleet Captain doesn't think of, the
Science Officer (or Tactical or Ops or Medical etc.) might point out.
The Borg have assimilated people with the ability to create, to invent-
but the Borg lose such abilities as the individuals mind is crushed into
the uniform, bland mental paste of the Collective. In "Scorpion," the
Borg were unable to research Species 90210 except by assimilation, which
they couldn't do. How many scientists and researchers have the Borg
absorbed, only to have such talents and abilities simply lost,
dissipated?
>How can you say that the Borg might now
>be advanced merely because they have another way of gathering
information and
>technology?
All I said is that the Borg are limiting THEMSELVES, because by crushing
out the individual minds who were capable of invention prior to being
assimilated, they are now only able to advance technologically by
conquering and assimilating aliens. Since they can only assimilate those
they can conquor, that tends to limit how far ahead they can advance
technologically.
He-Who-Is-Too-Much-Of-A-Hedonist-To-Be-High-On-The-Borg's-"To-Be-Assimila
ted"-List
"If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the
courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something." Jack Handy
Terrafamilia
Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
> >How can you say that the Borg might now
> >be advanced merely because they have another way of gathering
> information and
> >technology?
>
> All I said is that the Borg are limiting THEMSELVES, because by crushing
> out the individual minds who were capable of invention prior to being
> assimilated, they are now only able to advance technologically by
> conquering and assimilating aliens. Since they can only assimilate those
> they can conquor, that tends to limit how far ahead they can advance
> technologically.
While I generally agree with your assessment of the Borg's inability to be
truly creative they can still do a great deal through simple trial and
error. This is the impression I got from their very first appearence when
they adapted quickly to what was thrown against them. The deal with learning
only by assimilating during their conflict with Species 90210 was one more of
those dreaded Voyager cock-ups that we are now stuck with.
Ciao,
Terrafamilia
Fred van der Zee
>
>
> Terrafamilia wrote to Boze:
> >
> > > All I said is that the Borg are limiting THEMSELVES, because by crushing
> > > out the individual minds who were capable of invention prior to being
> > > assimilated, they are now only able to advance technologically by
> >
> > While I generally agree with your assessment of the Borg's inability to be
>
> I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
> creativity too? <snip>
I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
thought: a lot of real creative thinking starts with: "That's life...
NOT!", in other words: real creative minds do not follow the 'normal'
path of thinking -> and that's like cursing in the Borg's church ;). Try
to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
No, I don't think creativity can ever be assimilated.
free
silveroak
Terrafamilia wrote in message <3877F250...@fgi.net>...
>
>
>Bozo the Proctologist wrote:
>
>> >How can you say that the Borg might now
>> >be advanced merely because they have another way of gathering
>> information and
>> >technology?
>>
>> out the individual minds who were capable of invention prior to being
>> assimilated, they are now only able to advance technologically by
>> they can conquor, that tends to limit how far ahead they can advance
>> technologically.
>
>error. This is the impression I got from their very first appearence when
>they adapted quickly to what was thrown against them. The deal with
learning
>only by assimilating during their conflict with Species 90210 was one more
of
>those dreaded Voyager cock-ups that we are now stuck with.
>
Actually my impression was that they learn either through assimilation
or exposure. Problem is that with the weapons the fluidic space species were
using there wasn't much to report after exposure...
Fred van der Zee
>
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> Fred van der Zee wrote:
> >
> > > > While I generally agree with your assessment of the Borg's inability to be
> > >
> > > I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> > > *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
> > > creativity too? <snip>
> >
> > I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
> > make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
> > Try
> > to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
> > environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
>
> free thinkers. But, let's look at your Picasso example. He had *already"
> developed his creativity <snip>
> So, if the Borg assimilated him at
> say age 50, why wouldn't they get all those creative qualities?
The Borg would have the endresult of these 50 years - as plain
information. But the working talent (as a tool) would be destroyed
during the assimilation process: so it would not be of any use to them.
free
Fred van der Zee
>
> On Sun, 09 Jan 2000 19:41:44 -0500, Steve Christianson
> <stevechr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Fred van der Zee wrote:
> >>
> >> > > While I generally agree with your assessment of the Borg's inability to be
> >> > > truly creative <snip>
> >> >
> >> > I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> >> > *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
> >> > creativity too? <snip>
> >>
> >> I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
> >> make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
> >> thought: <snip>
> >> Try to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
> >> environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
> >
> >I'll grant that Borg drones born in the collective probably don't become
> >free thinkers. But, let's look at your Picasso example. He had *already"
> >path of thinking, by a certain age. So, if the Borg assimilated him at
> >say age 50, why wouldn't they get all those creative qualities?
>
> I think the point is that they *would* get those qualities,
They would have just plain information, *not* a working 'tool'.
> <snip>
> Since the collective already knows what they want/need from other
> species (technology from some, mere drones from others) they take
> what they want/need and discard the rest. The very idea of
> individuality is paramount to our species, yet it is discarded by the
> collective as being irrelevant. When the individuality is lost, so are
> the qualities that make up the individual. Picasso would have been
> just another drone.
Exactly!
> <snip>
free
Timo S Saloniemi
>The Borg were introduced to be the baddest of the galaxy's bad guys:
>powerful, relentless, implacable in their drive to assimilate anything
>and everything that can add to their goal of *perfection.*
At least, that was the impression both Q and Guinan wanted to give.
They did have hidden agendas and personal squibbles on the issue...
>While a Battlecube is big and powerful enough, I have to wonder if the
>Borg are really as advanced technologically as they seem. Certainly they
>love their high tech, making it an intimate part of their bodies, as if
>H. R. Giger had drawn "The Six Million Dollar Man" for Heavy Metal.....
>but 24th Century Federation doctors can remove Borg tech (aside from what
>Seven's become biologically dependent on. Dr. Crusher and Geordi could
>even repair the damage to Geordi's pet Borg, Hugh.
Agreed. However, aside from Seven's obvious implants (the metal ones),
ex-drones seem to have other components that cannot be removed. Picard
still has a communications device of sorts in his brain, as evidenced
in "First Contact". This does not mean that Borg technology is more
advanced than Federation tech - it just means that it is simpler to
let nano-things grow inside a brain than it is to root them out of
there!
>When they first appeared, Q told Picard that the Borg had been
>assimilating technologies (In "Q Who" there was no indication of them
>assimilating people) for half a million years- yet the Borg had decided
>that the tech on the Big E was something they could use. When the Cube
>took a core sample, the Enterprise's phasers were able to gouge out
>impressive holes in the Cube, effectively stopping it- yet, the very
>first photon torpedo salvo was shrugged off by the Cube with no apparent
>damage.
>While thr Borg use nanoprobes to assimilate people and technology,
>there's been no indication that their nanotech is more advanced than the
>Feds. Voyager's Holodoc was able to reprogram Borg nanoprobes easily
>enough.
Indeed.
>When the Borg assimilate a species, what do they REALLY get out of it?
>After assimilating humans and Vulcans and other Federation species (One
>of the ex-drones in "Unity" had been a Science Officer) the Borg are
>still unable to research anything except by assimilation (re:
>"Scorpion"). Rather than adding a species *distinctiveness* to
>themselves, it gets diluted and washed out when mixed in with the
>Collective.
Externally, this seems sadly true. Possibly the Borg are stuck on ancient
programming that gets harder and harder to rewrite or remove as assimilation
proceeds and the Collective grows, even though it dilutes the Collective
severely.
But perhaps this is an illusion. Perhaps the Borg simply are enlightened
enough that they realize their tech is already as good as they need,
has perhaps been for hundreds of millennia. Perhaps they assimilate
others and their technologies just to keep current on what new might
threaten them and perhaps force them to evolve a bit more. Perhaps
the distinctiveness of species is indeed retained and enriches the whole,
but we fail to see this since it doesn't manifest in technological
growth?
>It is that weakness that prevents the Borg from actually advancing, no
>matter who they assimilate. They may indeed pick up a few technotricks
>here and there, like personal force fields, but the inventive genius and
>creativity of assimilated drones is lost.
Or deemed irrelevant?
>This could explain why they've changed their tactics, running abortive,
>not-quite-successful attacks on planets like Earth: to stimulate and
>drive us to developing higher technology, more advanced weapons and
>deflectors, more powerful ships...... and then, once they've decided
>we've really got something worth grabbing, they'll send five or ten Cubes
>and really do it.
This might be their standard modus operandi, one we didn't realize earlier
since our sample of Borg experiences was so pitifully limited. Each of
the Borg attacks so far could have been such an abortive feint - with the
very first infiltration in "Q Who?" or even back when the Borg scooped
up Earth outposts in "The Neutral Zone", the Borg found out all they
needed about Fed technology, and the attacks on the Enterprise in
"Q Who?" were the first attempt to prod us to do our worst and evolve beyond
our current, miserably low-tech state? The E-D did evolve, and managed to
escape (although it was the Q cheating!), so Borg interest on us was
piqued.
It has to be remembered that the Borg do have a superior interstellar drive,
something that may be within the grasp of the Feds but may also be too
advanced for them to understand for a while. Few races have anything better
without being noncorporeal demigods already.
Timo Saloniemi
EvilBill[AGQx]
>
> Externally, this seems sadly true. Possibly the Borg are stuck on ancient
> programming that gets harder and harder to rewrite or remove as
assimilation
> proceeds and the Collective grows, even though it dilutes the Collective
> severely.
>
Certainly the Collective is hundreds of thousands of years old... I
sometimes wonder if the Borg began at around the same time as the Iconian
Empire collapsed. That would make for an interesting tale... the Genesis of
the Borg, and their relation to the Iconians :)
I know the Trek novels aren't canon, but in "The Return", it states that the
central node on the Borg homeworld was two hundred thousand years old. It
was at about the same time that the Iconians were destroyed... I have
sometimes wondered whether it was by the Borg, or what would later become
the Borg :)
--
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Remata'Klan: "It is not my life to give up, Captain, and it never was."
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Stephen Macdonald Luke
>On Sun, 09 Jan 2000 19:41:44 -0500, Steve Christianson
><stevechr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Fred van der Zee wrote:
>>>
>>> > > While I generally agree with your assessment of the Borg's inability to be
>>> > > truly creative <snip>
>>> >
>>> > I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
>>> > *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
>>> > creativity too? <snip>
>>>
>>> I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
>>> make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
>>> thought: a lot of real creative thinking starts with: "That's life...
>>> NOT!", in other words: real creative minds do not follow the 'normal'
>>> path of thinking -> and that's like cursing in the Borg's church ;). Try
>>> to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
>>> environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
>>
>>
>>I'll grant that Borg drones born in the collective probably don't become
>>free thinkers. But, let's look at your Picasso example. He had *already"
>>developed his creativity, through as you say by not following the normal
>>path of thinking, by a certain age. So, if the Borg assimilated him at
>>say age 50, why wouldn't they get all those creative qualities?
>
>I think the point is that they *would* get those qualities, but they
>would be crushed under the weight of the collective mind and relegated
>to 'back curner' status as irrelevant, since they would not further
>the collective's adgenda.
>
>Since the collective already knows what they want/need from other
>species (technology from some, mere drones from others) they take
>what they want/need and discard the rest. The very idea of
>individuality is paramount to our species, yet it is discarded by the
>collective as being irrelevant. When the individuality is lost, so are
>the qualities that make up the individual. Picasso would have been
>just another drone.
Yet if, as it seems, the Borg is a single incredibly complex
personality of great scope and vision, then such qualities *would* be
capable of being expressed. Picasso's body and brain (plus some free
hardware and software) would be a drone. Yet if the Borg considered it
desirable, that drone could be used for creating artwork. Of course
the Borg, in it's totality, would be the actual artist.
The qualities in question would be evaluated by the Borg, but, if
acceptable, would become *part of the decisionmaking process and of
the Borg identity*, even if the decision was to not express those
qualities immediately....or ever. Such a decision would in itself be
an expression of those, and countless other, qualities.
>
>Aside from that, it still seems that when the drones are separated
>from the collective, their individual personalities CAN re-assert
>themselves. And when that happens, they resent the collective, as
>their long suppressed individuality surfaces once again.
7 of 9 didn't at first. Later she did more, but at the same time,
missed what she had lost. I'm only up to the Hunter/prey episodes so
I'm not sure how 7 develops later. 7 also said that when her body was
dead, her particular memories up untill seperation would be held by
the collective, which was a great comfort to her *as an individual*
when contemplating her new mortality. When her companion suggested
that in this way an aspect of her would survive her physical
death/live forever(?) she said yes.
>This is what tells me that the collective supresses anything they
>don't find to be useful. (Namely, anything of a personal nature, which
>creativity, ideology and many other qualities are examples of)
Don't we all? Are not most of us capable of far more than our
societies and lifestyles would find tolerable? As children being
socialised, do we not learn to limit ourselves, lest others limit us
far more harshly? And what choice does a child get in our, or the
federation's educational programs?
Look at Janeway. She is far more of a robot, more constrained, and
more emotionally damaged by what she has been indoctrinated to
identify with as *her* society, than is the Borg. She does not dance
or revolt, except in the mental arms of Leonardo, in the shimmering
matrices of a Federation computer simulation. She is a child in
uniform, looking in puzzlement and frustration for the touch of a real
another. With Borg nanoprobe technology she could achieve in reality
what she pretends at in simulation....but that, ...is not the
federation value structure. People must be limited and indoctrinated
to be forever part of the indoctrination system. As 7 said, 'you are
just the same as the Borg'. Which was being remarkably charitable of
her, considering the Borg is not hypocritical and the Federation is
very much so.
Perhaps the real danger of the Borg to the Federation is that too many
members would want to assimilate. Even given a high rejection rate,
considering Borg standards, the social unrest would be inconceivable,
and could destroy the Federation through subverting it's value
structure.
Societies have been known to take that kind of thing rather seriously
:-) .....
....one is a squirming mirror
reflecting the shapes that others wish to see
reflecting oneself as a shape of desire
being many while being one...
Steve L.
Timo S Saloniemi
>Steve Christianson wrote:
>> I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
>> *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
>> creativity too? <snip>
>
>I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
>make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
>thought: a lot of real creative thinking starts with: "That's life...
>NOT!", in other words: real creative minds do not follow the 'normal'
>path of thinking -> and that's like cursing in the Borg's church ;). Try
>to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
>environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
But what is to say that this isn't happening all the time? The assimilated
Picasso could be creating surreal art and odd social interactions all
throughout to Collective. Ture, he would still move and speak like an
automaton, but his mind could be roaming free and manifesting itself
through the bodies of other drones, a little bit here, a little bit there.
A Collective might remain coherent even if all the individual minds were
thinking "unproductive" thoughts. A mutineer could think: "hey, what if I try
THIS to shut down the entire Collective?"; or a madman: "I think I'll slaughter
the drone to my left today"; or a creative artist: "red Cadillacs look just
right on egg yolk". The Collective would simply reroute the thinking to
generate "Hey, what if I slaughter the redshirt to my right with THIS?"
(The remaining "try to down Cadillacs I yolk just entire egg Collective
on think shut today" would simply go to waste...)
It's not necessary for the Collective to be completely oppressive, just
"regulatory", on what the drones think and how they behave.
Timo Saloniemi
Fred van der Zee
>
> In article <947430254.7045....@news.demon.nl> Fred van der Zee <"hq"@winged.demon.nl (Fred van der Zee)> writes:
> >Steve Christianson wrote:
>
> >> I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> >> *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
> >> creativity too? <snip>
> >
> >I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
> >make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
> >to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
> >environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
>
> But what is to say that this isn't happening all the time? The assimilated
> Picasso could be creating surreal art and odd social interactions all
> throughout to Collective. Ture, he would still move and speak like an
> automaton, but his mind could be roaming free and manifesting itself
> through the bodies of other drones, a little bit here, a little bit there.
>
> A Collective might remain coherent even if all the individual minds were
> thinking "unproductive" thoughts. A mutineer could think: "hey, what if I try
> THIS to shut down the entire Collective?"; or a madman: "I think I'll slaughter
> the drone to my left today"; or a creative artist: "red Cadillacs look just
> right on egg yolk". The Collective would simply reroute the thinking to
> generate "Hey, what if I slaughter the redshirt to my right with THIS?"
> (The remaining "try to down Cadillacs I yolk just entire egg Collective
> on think shut today" would simply go to waste...)
>
> It's not necessary for the Collective to be completely oppressive, just
> "regulatory", on what the drones think and how they behave.
>
> Timo Saloniemi
hmm that would not be efficient: that would take extra resources to
streamline thinking...
and a lot of security overhead: it's much more efficient to destroy
'abnormal' thinking at the root: just block it totally and let the
collective decide.
free
Walt
A little while ago, I was watching a show (PBS? TLC? Discovery?)
which projected what Humans would be like in a few thousand
years. I found it interesting that we seem to become very
Borg-like ourselves. BTW, I am assuming that the writer of
this show wasn't a closet Trekkie and was making a realistic
projection.
The collective? Isn't that the ultimate in democracy we all
tend to embrace as good? Every mind gets involved in every
decision.
No lying either. Since everyone knows what you are thinking,
they know the truth. I assume that this goes for the Queen's
thoughts too. Wouldn't you like to know what was going on
in some politician's head? Given the technology to actually
do that, would we do it?
The Borg seem to have little-to-no wars with themselves. No
arguments. No crime. No taxes. :) Overall, they seem to
follow our Ten Commandments better than we do.
They don't run Windows. :)
So, again, are the Borg all that bad?
NoOneYouKnow
Walt <Wa...@Early.com> wrote in message news:387CC50C...@Early.com...
[snip]
> They don't run Windows. :)
Oh, I wouldn't be so sure. By that time, Microsoft may even have a monopoly
in the Delta Quadrant.
And it could explain some of the, shall we say, "inconsistent" behavior of
the collective.
---JRE---
Michael Robinson
minds wander free.
* Robinson
Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
>
> In article <947430254.7045....@news.demon.nl> Fred van der Zee <"hq"@winged.demon.nl (Fred van der Zee)> writes:
> >Steve Christianson wrote:
>
> >> I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> >> *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
> >> creativity too? <snip>
> >
> >I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
> >make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
> >thought: a lot of real creative thinking starts with: "That's life...
> >NOT!", in other words: real creative minds do not follow the 'normal'
> >path of thinking -> and that's like cursing in the Borg's church ;). Try
> >to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
> >environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
>
> But what is to say that this isn't happening all the time? The assimilated
> Picasso could be creating surreal art and odd social interactions all
> throughout to Collective. Ture, he would still move and speak like an
> automaton, but his mind could be roaming free and manifesting itself
> through the bodies of other drones, a little bit here, a little bit there.
>
> A Collective might remain coherent even if all the individual minds were
> thinking "unproductive" thoughts. A mutineer could think: "hey, what if I try
> THIS to shut down the entire Collective?"; or a madman: "I think I'll slaughter
> the drone to my left today"; or a creative artist: "red Cadillacs look just
> right on egg yolk". The Collective would simply reroute the thinking to
> generate "Hey, what if I slaughter the redshirt to my right with THIS?"
> (The remaining "try to down Cadillacs I yolk just entire egg Collective
> on think shut today" would simply go to waste...)
>
> It's not necessary for the Collective to be completely oppressive, just
> "regulatory", on what the drones think and how they behave.
>
> Timo Saloniemi
--
"No one questions the assassination of a Captain who disobeys prime
orders of the Empire."
-- Ensign Pavel Chekov, "Mirror, Mirror"
EvilBill[AGQx]
LOL! This is true! <g>
John Kang
With technology, comes routine. With routine, comes the lost of the ability to be
spontaneous, what is irrelevant will be dismissed. Unfortunately for the Borg,
spontaneity and irrelevent information are the basis for a "breakthrough" in
creative thinking. Without something different from the normal, there would be no
computers or internet in our world. The Borg can assimilate this creative process,
but they would disregard it as "irrelevant".
Steve Christianson wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> Fred van der Zee wrote:
> >
> > > > While I generally agree with your assessment of the Borg's inability to be
> > > > truly creative <snip>
> > >
> > > I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> > > *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
> > > creativity too? <snip>
> >
> > I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
> > make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
> > thought: a lot of real creative thinking starts with: "That's life...
> > NOT!", in other words: real creative minds do not follow the 'normal'
> > path of thinking -> and that's like cursing in the Borg's church ;). Try
> > to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
> > environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
>
John Kang
"Resistance is futile" isn't that Microsoft's logo?
Walt wrote:
> They don't run Windows. :)
>
Christopher Eucare
Griz
EvilBill[AGQx]
news:387D7BC5...@prodigy.net...
>
> "Resistance is futile" isn't that Microsoft's logo?
>
You would think so, wouldn't you? <g>
But then, there's one big difference between the Borg and Microsoft... the
Borg are *efficient*... <eg>
controlFunction
Episode:Drone
One : "What happens to them?" (asking about what happens to assimilated
individuals)
Seven : "Their neural pathways are restructured and they are
linked to a Hive Mind"
The Borg change your thinking for you whether you like it or not. It's
not just a matter of the collective forcing you to do things...you WILL
do things (like assimilate your fellow species) because you are now Borg.
Fred van der Zee wrote:
Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
>
> In article <947430254.7045....@news.demon.nl> Fred van der Zee <"hq"@winged.demon.nl (Fred van der Zee)> writes:
> >Steve Christianson wrote:
>
> >> I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> >> *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
> >> creativity too? <snip>
> >
> >I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
> >make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
> >thought: <snip>. Try
> >to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
> >environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
>
> But what is to say that this isn't happening all the time? The assimilated
> Picasso could be creating surreal art and odd social interactions all
> throughout to Collective. Ture, he would still move and speak like an
> automaton, but his mind could be roaming free and manifesting itself
> through the bodies of other drones, a little bit here, a little bit there.
>
> A Collective might remain coherent even if all the individual minds were
> thinking "unproductive" thoughts. A mutineer could think: "hey, what if I try
> THIS to shut down the entire Collective?"; or a madman: "I think I'll slaughter
> the drone to my left today"; or a creative artist: "red Cadillacs look just
> right on egg yolk". The Collective would simply reroute the thinking to
> generate "Hey, what if I slaughter the redshirt to my right with THIS?"
> (The remaining "try to down Cadillacs I yolk just entire egg Collective
> on think shut today" would simply go to waste...)
>
> It's not necessary for the Collective to be completely oppressive, just
> "regulatory", on what the drones think and how they behave.
>
> Timo Saloniemi
hmm that would not be efficient: that would take extra resources to
Cyberdude
NoOneYouKnow
Like the Omega particle. Conducting research requires creativity to
hypothesize, design experiments, and develop theories.
---JRE---
John Kang <god...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:387D7958...@prodigy.net...
>
> With technology, comes routine. With routine, comes the lost of the
ability to be
> spontaneous, what is irrelevant will be dismissed. Unfortunately for the
Borg,
> spontaneity and irrelevent information are the basis for a "breakthrough"
in
> creative thinking. Without something different from the normal, there
would be no
> computers or internet in our world. The Borg can assimilate this creative
process,
> but they would disregard it as "irrelevant".
>
> Steve Christianson wrote:
>
> > X-No-Archive: yes
> >
> > Fred van der Zee wrote:
> > >
> > > > > While I generally agree with your assessment of the Borg's
inability to be
> > > > > truly creative <snip>
> > > >
> > > > I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
> > > > *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities
like
> > > > creativity too? <snip>
> > >
> > > I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
> > > make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
> > > thought: a lot of real creative thinking starts with: "That's life...
> > > NOT!", in other words: real creative minds do not follow the 'normal'
> > > path of thinking -> and that's like cursing in the Borg's church ;).
Try
> > > to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
> > > environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the
exsistance.
> >
John Kang
Or just put on the music video and mute the sound.
Masked Man
collective is a true oligarchy. There is a Borg Queen, and probably a
select few others who determine the collective will. Their wishes are
then imposed on the rest of the collective. No one has any
opportunity to debate or offer input. This is all implicit in the
very notion of the word drone.
Stephen Macdonald Luke
>In article <947430254.7045....@news.demon.nl> Fred van der Zee <"hq"@winged.demon.nl (Fred van der Zee)> writes:
>>Steve Christianson wrote:
>
>>> I dunno about all this. When the Borg assimilate, they assimilate
>>> *everything* in the individual's mind, yes? So why not qualities like
>>> creativity too? <snip>
>>
>>I think the problem with assimilating creativity is, that in order to
>>make it work for you, you have to give an individual some freedom of
>>thought: a lot of real creative thinking starts with: "That's life...
>>NOT!", in other words: real creative minds do not follow the 'normal'
>>path of thinking -> and that's like cursing in the Borg's church ;). Try
>>to imagine the assimilation of Picasso and what he would do to Borg
>>environment. Or some philosopher, constantly questioning the exsistance.
>
>But what is to say that this isn't happening all the time? The assimilated
>Picasso could be creating surreal art and odd social interactions all
>throughout to Collective. Ture, he would still move and speak like an
>automaton, but his mind could be roaming free and manifesting itself
>through the bodies of other drones, a little bit here, a little bit there.
>
>A Collective might remain coherent even if all the individual minds were
>thinking "unproductive" thoughts. A mutineer could think: "hey, what if I try
>THIS to shut down the entire Collective?"; or a madman: "I think I'll slaughter
>the drone to my left today"; or a creative artist: "red Cadillacs look just
>right on egg yolk". The Collective would simply reroute the thinking to
>generate "Hey, what if I slaughter the redshirt to my right with THIS?"
>(The remaining "try to down Cadillacs I yolk just entire egg Collective
>on think shut today" would simply go to waste...)
>
>It's not necessary for the Collective to be completely oppressive, just
>"regulatory", on what the drones think and how they behave.
Just like how our own bodies avoid epileptic seizures....regulatory
co-ordination. Taking that analogy further, imagine what it would be
like to consciously perceive all the stuff that gets handled down in
the limbic system. Not to mention the subconscious....
Bryan
They should have left the Borg as a faceless collective - a big network
where no one Borg is "superior". Why give the Borg some kind of sensual,
exotic queen-type person ? And when she died in "First Contact", they just
replaced her with another one ? Who decided THAT ? The rest of the Borg,
collectively ? Come on.....
Bry
Timo S Saloniemi
>Masked Man----->Here, I think, is the flaw in your argument. The
>collective is a true oligarchy. There is a Borg Queen, and probably a
>select few others who determine the collective will. Their wishes are
>then imposed on the rest of the collective. No one has any
>opportunity to debate or offer input. This is all implicit in the
>very notion of the word drone.
But the Queen herself is a drone as well - an expendable humanoid body
for a nonhumanoid nonexpendable Collective. I think we cannot judge
whether the Collective is the ultimate democracy or the ultimate
dictatorship unless we hear it from reliable "inside sources" that are
no longer being controlled by the Collective. How does Hansen/Seven feel
about the issue? What does Picard/Locutus think?
We know Seven at first thought ill of being forced out of the Collective,
while Picard has always seemed simply relieved by his escape. But that
isn't direct info on the nature of the decisionmaking in the Collective,
it's just subjective feelings. Perhaps Seven liked it in a dictatorship?
Perhaps Picard hated a perfect democracy?
We would have to ask the two characters directly for this information.
Neither has volunteered much of it so far, perhaps because their non-
assimilated friends and associates would never understand. But it
would certainly be interesting and informative to let Annika Hansen
and Jean-Luc Picard have a little chat with *each other*...
Timo Saloniemi
EvilBill[AGQx]
It made a good focus for Picard's obsession, but I'm not sure the concept
was a good idea for the Borg as a "race"... it means the old Borg
relentlessness is at the whim of an individual... and the Borg see
individuality as being "small".
Michal M
the collective isn't called a collective for nothing...
Masked Man <kemo...@skyenet.net#nospam> wrote in message
news:38825245...@news.mindspring.com...
> Masked Man----->Here, I think, is the flaw in your argument. The
> collective is a true oligarchy. There is a Borg Queen, and probably a
> select few others who determine the collective will. Their wishes are
> then imposed on the rest of the collective. No one has any
> opportunity to debate or offer input. This is all implicit in the
> very notion of the word drone.
>
controlFunction
utterly perfect.
Seven could help Picard understand his feelings towards the Borg and he could help her understand more
of her humanity.
Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
> In article <38825245...@news.mindspring.com> kemo...@skyenet.net#nospam (Masked Man) writes:
> >Masked Man----->Here, I think, is the flaw in your argument. The
> >collective is a true oligarchy. There is a Borg Queen, and probably a
> >select few others who determine the collective will. Their wishes are
> >then imposed on the rest of the collective. No one has any
> >opportunity to debate or offer input. This is all implicit in the
> >very notion of the word drone.
>
Mark Gallagher
of a relentless, mindless (well, sort of) Borg was far more scary. I mean,
which is more disturbing? England, back in the time of the Supreme
Monarchs, or a colony of ants? Think about it. These are analogies by the
way, I don't really get scared by ants. Or queens. What I mean is, the
Queen represents FC-and-Voyager Borg, and the ants are TNG Borg.
The ants act as a collective, each ant creates a sort of field or scent or
something, which combines with all the other ants in a colony to form one
'mind'. If you take this colony to be as powerful and aggressive as the
Borg, then we have a problem.
A supreme monarchy gives the King or Queen supreme power over what the
various members of their country do. Whatever the Queen wants is done.
Which would be worse, do you think? Hordes of nameless, faceless Borg
marching against you relentlessly, without the will - or the ability,
really, to give up, or hordes of nameless, faceless Borg doing what some
horny head-and-shoulders-organic-machine tells them to do?
--
Marge, have you ever sat down and really READ the bible? Technically you're
not allowed to go to the bathroom.
- Reverend Lovejoy, "The Simpsons"
Get my homepage at http://www.homestead.com/markgallagher/
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"Bryan" <br...@planisphere.net> wrote in message
news:YJuf4.20720$Vj3.2...@typhoon.mbnet.mb.ca...
> Actually, I think the "Borg Queen" idea was a mistake on the writers'
part.
> They should have left the Borg as a faceless collective - a big network
> where no one Borg is "superior". Why give the Borg some kind of sensual,
> exotic queen-type person ? And when she died in "First Contact", they
just
> replaced her with another one ? Who decided THAT ? The rest of the Borg,
> collectively ? Come on.....
>
> Bry
>
>
controlFunction
with a face they could interact with. Like in the Matrix. The enemy itself is
the Matrix and the AI machine consciousness that controls it and the planet. But
to make the story watchable you have to have a central character you can relate
to as the "bad guy". And in that case it was Hugo Weaving's excellent Agent
Smith. (Dig that evil accent!) Same with First Contact. As much as a lot of us
love the Borg and their remorseless, faceless collective personality, their
sheer straightforward bluntness ( "give us the technology" ) their is only
limited dramatic license with it. You cant really have a conversation with 150
000 voices. So in the interest of making the story longer than 25
minutes...(Data: "who are you?" Borg: "conversation is irrelevent give us the
encryption data, you must comply") the Borg Queen was created. Unfortunately it
seems to constantly be in conflict with the nature of the Collective itself....
"EvilBill[AGQx]" wrote:
> "Bryan" <br...@planisphere.net> wrote in message...
> > Actually, I think the "Borg Queen" idea was a mistake on the writers'
> part.
> > They should have left the Borg as a faceless collective - a big network
> > where no one Borg is "superior". Why give the Borg some kind of sensual,
> > exotic queen-type person ? And when she died in "First Contact", they
> just
> > replaced her with another one ? Who decided THAT ? The rest of the Borg,
> > collectively ? Come on.....
> >
>
Nelson Lu
EvilBill[AGQx] <evilbill.D...@nutter.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>It made a good focus for Picard's obsession, but I'm not sure the concept
>was a good idea for the Borg as a "race"... it means the old Borg
>relentlessness is at the whim of an individual... and the Borg see
>individuality as being "small".
Not if you see the Queen as the personification of the Collective; she merely
expresses the will of the Collective, and vice versa.
Timo S Saloniemi
And since she is being extremely cryptical, one cannot really say that her
presence has made the "will of the Collective" any more humanlike in nature.
Only the physical manifestation became more humanlike. In essence, the
Queen says nothing except hinting that Picard was intended to have a special
role different from other drones - which may be pure propaganda. Otherwise,
it's the same old Borg mentality again, with futile resistance and
assimilation of cultural and technological distinctiveness and the like.
Timo Saloniemi
EvilBill[AGQx]
>
> Not if you see the Queen as the personification of the Collective; she
merely
> expresses the will of the Collective, and vice versa.
I suppose it depends on how you see her: as the personification of the
Collective (and therefore acting in a similar capacity to Locutus), or as
some kind of "focus" of the Collective, the equivalent of a leader. Remember
that bit in First Contact when Data escapes his restraints and is then
stopped by the drones? She just raises her hand and they disperse.
The obvious idea the writers were going for here is a queen bee/queen ant
type being, that all the drones are subservient to. For me, that just
doesn't seem to go with the Borg as a single, ruthless collective that
rejects individualism.
Masked Man
date. Excellent summary!
GeneK
of the Borg make it pretty clear that the queen gives actual direction
to the drones, and that by destroying her you disable all the other
Borg under her immediate control. The "collective mind" of TNG has
given way to a "queen and slaves" hive reorganization. It has the
effect of weakening the Borg, since the queen now becomes more important
to the collective than any other Borg and thus a weak link that can be
used as a target, but OTOH the original Borg were *so* powerful that
it would have been ludicrous to use them as an adversary on any sort of
ongoing basis.
GeneK
Nelson Lu wrote:
>
> In article <85mqm5$8vo$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> EvilBill[AGQx] <evilbill.D...@nutter.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >It made a good focus for Picard's obsession, but I'm not sure the concept
> >was a good idea for the Borg as a "race"... it means the old Borg
> >relentlessness is at the whim of an individual... and the Borg see
> >individuality as being "small".
>
Michael Robinson
have a "person" to talk to?
In that light, it seems that a "Queen" is a logical extension.
* Robinson
Nelson Lu wrote:
>
> In article <85mqm5$8vo$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> EvilBill[AGQx] <evilbill.D...@nutter.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >It made a good focus for Picard's obsession, but I'm not sure the concept
> >was a good idea for the Borg as a "race"... it means the old Borg
> >relentlessness is at the whim of an individual... and the Borg see
> >individuality as being "small".
>
> Not if you see the Queen as the personification of the Collective; she merely
> expresses the will of the Collective, and vice versa.
--
Mark Gallagher
Locutus was a focus for all the Borg's thoughts. He did what the rest of
the Borg thought he should do. The Queen is the opposite - she is the
SOURCE of the Borg's thoughts. The Borg do what SHE tells them to, not the
other way round.
Perhaps this is why 7 of 9 likes the collective (assuming she was a QIT),
and Picard hates it. Being a Queen is essentially a pretty good thing, when
you think about it. As for being Locutus, I doubt it...
--
Marge, have you ever sat down and really READ the bible? Technically you're
not allowed to go to the bathroom.
- Reverend Lovejoy, "The Simpsons"
Get my homepage at http://www.homestead.com/markgallagher/
Get my Star Trek page at http://marktrek.cjb.net
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Today's nutty websites:
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2653467 - "Are we living in end times?" book
"Michael Robinson" <robi...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:387F9199...@pilot.msu.edu...
Nelson Lu
Mark Gallagher <galldy.d...@youbastards.icqmail.com> wrote:
>Locutus was a focus for all the Borg's thoughts. He did what the rest of
>the Borg thought he should do. The Queen is the opposite - she is the
>SOURCE of the Borg's thoughts. The Borg do what SHE tells them to, not the
>other way round.
Or does she actually tell them what to do? We have no way to tell. They
*appear* to follow her orders, but remember that she said that she is the Borg;
if we believe the "personification theory" (as I do), then essence, what
appears to be a command structure is nothing more than a display.
Masked Man
I read.....
Mark Gallagher
after any sort of bodily emission, be it excreta or semen, you are unclean
for seven days, as is anyone/thing you touch.
--
"Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the world, I
can't help but cry. I mean I'd love to be skinny like that, but not with all
those flies and death and stuff," -- Mariah Carey
Get my homepage at http://www.homestead.com/markgallagher/
Get my Star Trek page at http://marktrek.cjb.net
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Today's nutty websites:
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"Masked Man" <kemo...@skyenet.net> wrote in message
news:3882ae77...@news.mindspring.com...
Cyberdude
John Kang <god...@prodigy.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
387E6756...@prodigy.net...
Rob Lent
Masked Man wrote:
> Masked Man----->Here, I think, is the flaw in your argument. The
> collective is a true oligarchy. There is a Borg Queen, and probably a
> select few others who determine the collective will. Their wishes are
> then imposed on the rest of the collective. No one has any
> opportunity to debate or offer input. This is all implicit in the
> very notion of the word drone.
But it's not a collective if the whole is not making the decisions.
I think that it is somewhere in the middle, with the whole making the
decisions,
but with the Queen acting as a thought police. I would say that the Borg
may well be moving to the point where the collective will is ignored
entirely.
If they could fool the drones into thinking that what the Queen decides is
what the whole group has decided, the Queen(s) could pull it off.
"Determining the collective will" is on oxymoron.