Does Joan Collins realize that her character
Mike
appeared in ONE episode of the original series? Has Joan ever
appeared at any Star Trek events? Or has she ever been asked about her
role as Edith Keeler?
Steven Litvintchouk
Mike wrote:
> of "Edith Keeler" is one of the most beloved characters who only
> appeared in ONE episode of the original series? Has Joan ever
> appeared at any Star Trek events?
She spoke about her Star Trek episode at the 2002 Creation Con in
California.
-- Steven L.
Graeme
Joan Collins remembers Edith Keeler as being a Nazi sympathizer who had the
hots for Adolph Hitler. Seriously, that's how her autobiography describes the
episode.
Robert Bernardo
> of "Edith Keeler" is one of the most beloved characters who only
> appeared in ONE episode of the original series? Has Joan ever
> appeared at any Star Trek events?
Yes, she was at the Creation Grand Slam Convention 2003.
> Or has she ever been asked about her role as Edith Keeler?
There were plenty of questions asked during her Q & A session,
after William Shatner introduced her. She loved her role as Edith Keeler,
and she and Shatner had obvious respect and delight for each as they stood
there on stage.
Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Mike
Thanks, I'm glad to know she acknowledged her role at least. It would
have been nice to see Edith in another episode at some point in the
series. Even if it wasn't "really" her.
I know! Maybe it could have been on that planet where Kirk ran into
that "manufactured" version of his old academy nemesis Finegan. What
was the name of that episode? It was the same episode where McCoy saw
that bunny rabbit running around.
> Truly,
> Robert Bernardo
Steven Litvintchouk
Mike wrote:
"Shore Leave."
and yes, that would have been an interesting way to maintain series
continuity. Instead they invented Ruth, yet another one of Kirk's past
girlfriends whom we get to see once and never again.
-- Steven L.
Graeme
>
>and yes, that would have been an interesting way to maintain series
>continuity. Instead they invented Ruth, yet another one of Kirk's past
>girlfriends whom we get to see once and never again.
The reason why is that when Shore Leave happened, Kirk hadn't met Edith yet.
Wouter Valentijn
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> schreef in bericht
news:20040531194909...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Nuts!
That autobiographer should be fired.
--
Wouter Valentijn
www.zeppodunsel.nl www.nksf.nl
"It's not about right, not about wrong... ...it's about power."
- The First Evil in "Lessons"
Wouter Valentijn
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> schreef in bericht
Yes, first you had 'Shore Leave' (in the middle of the first season), and
then 'City on the edge of forever' was made (at the end of the first
season).
http://www.voyager.cz/tos/transcripts.htm
Graeme
>Nuts!
>That autobiographer should be fired.
She can hardly fire herself, but it's a good idea. But the same story turns up
in Inside Joan Collins, and neither Jay David, who wrote it, or the editor at
Simon & Shuster knew any better. Joan told the same story on TV talk shows,
but surely somebody has corrected her by now.
Graeme
>then 'City on the edge of forever' was made (at the end of the first
>season).
Not that it wouldn't have been great if Shore Leave had happened later, and
they'd brought Joan Collins back for the role.
Assuming that they'd have bothered. Heck, they had that opportunity in
Generations, and didn't bother. Antonia who?
Wouter Valentijn
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> schreef in bericht
I should hope so.
Wouter Valentijn
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> schreef in bericht
Indeed!
Piper
> Antonia who?
Bandera?
Piper
(Take your coat off to send an e-mail)
ANIM8Rfsk
<< Assuming that they'd have bothered. Heck, they had that opportunity in
Generations, and didn't bother. Antonia who? >>
And they don't even need to hire an actress. We never see her, just hear her
name. But Braga never watched real Trek, and doesn't care.
Wouter Valentijn
"ANIM8Rfsk" <anim...@aol.comNOSPAM> schreef in bericht
news:20040605190317...@mb-m17.aol.com...
On a horse, on the horizon.
Andrew Murray
"Wouter Valentijn" <WouterValenti...@home.nl> wrote in message
news:2i96pbF...@uni-berlin.de...
what you meant?
Autobiography means written by the person it is about.
Biography - life story of someone written by another person.
Wouter Valentijn
"Andrew Murray" <SPAMadBUS...@iinet.net.au> schreef in bericht
news:40c5593c$0$29805$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
Yup! Every sarcastic word of it ;-)
>
> Autobiography means written by the person it is about.
Or so they say. We'll just have to take their word for it. Could have been a
ghost-writer, in which case it would actually be a biography.
>
> Biography - life story of someone written by another person.
Of course I know that.
It was sarcasm Andrew :)
GeneK
> Joan Collins remembers Edith Keeler as being a Nazi sympathizer who had
> the hots for Adolph Hitler. Seriously, that's how her autobiography
describes
> the episode.
I've seen Collins on a number of talk shows, and she seems to enjoy being
outrageous just for the sake of being outrageous. I don't think I've ever
seen her speak seriously on anything.
GeneK
Graeme
>outrageous just for the sake of being outrageous. I don't think I've ever
>seen her speak seriously on anything.
>
>GeneK
Maybe. But seeing the story in two different places and hearing that she told
it on talk shows makes me think that that's the way she really remembered it.
If it was some elaborate joke, then the joke would be on her.
GeneK
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20040609182717...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> If it was some elaborate joke, then the joke would be on her.
I doubt that. To the vast majority of people out there in TV-Land,
Trek is still nothing more than a subject for a few Trivial Pursuit cards
and a bunch of fans running around at conventions in rubber Spock
ears. You really can't go wrong making fun of Trekdom unless you
actually depend on it for a living, which Collins obviously does not.
GeneK
Graeme
>Trek is still nothing more than a subject for a few Trivial Pursuit cards
>and a bunch of fans running around at conventions in rubber Spock
>ears. You really can't go wrong making fun of Trekdom unless you
>actually depend on it for a living, which Collins obviously does not.
>
>GeneK
Well, if she told a joke that either a) nobody got, or b) people knew it was
wrong and just thought it was her being stupid, then again, the joke is on her.
But I two books stating something as a fact with no hint that it wasn't is not
a joke. It's just getting it wrong.
GeneK
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote...
> Well, if she told a joke that either a) nobody got, or b) people knew it was
> wrong and just thought it was her being stupid, then again, the joke is on her.
>
> But I two books stating something as a fact with no hint that it wasn't is not
> a joke. It's just getting it wrong.
I have often noticed that many Trek fans seem humorless when discussing
the franchise. Either that, or Joan and I must share a warped sense of humor,
because when I first heard that line about Edith, I thought it was funny...
GeneK
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ToolPackinMama
> I have often noticed that many Trek fans seem humorless when discussing
> the franchise. Either that, or Joan and I must share a warped sense of humor,
> because when I first heard that line about Edith, I thought it was funny...
No offense intended, GeneK, but, you're weird. :)
Graeme
franchise. Either that, or Joan and I must share a warped sense of humor,
because when I first heard that line about Edith, I thought it was funny...
>>GeneK
Oh, it IS funny. That's not in question. It's just that the joke is on Joan
Collins, and her mighty powers of recollection.
Don't you find it amusing? I mean, consider that it's one of two things:
1) Joan doesn't remember the story, and really thinks that Edith Keeler
was a Hitler loving Nazi sympathizer. Funny!
2) Joan remembers the story fairly well, but claimed that she didn't for
the purpose of a pointless joke that, rather than working the way it should,
got everyone thinking that she was a ditz with the retentive powers of a can of
Spam. Fun-NY!
So, it's funny either way. And the joke is on her either way too.
ToolPackinMama
> 1) Joan doesn't remember the story, and really thinks that Edith Keeler
> was a Hitler loving Nazi sympathizer. Funny!
>
> 2) Joan remembers the story fairly well, but claimed that she didn't for
> the purpose of a pointless joke that, rather than working the way it should,
> got everyone thinking that she was a ditz with the retentive powers of a can of
> Spam. Fun-NY!
>
> So, it's funny either way. And the joke is on her either way too.
LOL I agree.
Graeme
>was a Hitler loving Nazi sympathizer. Funny!
>>
And incidentally, rather than discuss this in a vacuum, perhaps I should just
post the relevant quotes, and you decide for yourself if this is a joke or a
mistake. I don't have her talk show quotes, but I do have these two:
EXHIBIT A: Inside Joan Collins, by Jay David, copyright 1988
>>
And she did a "Star Trek." The segment titled "City on the Edge of Forever,"
later became a cult classic. Every Trekkie knows it and remembers it. The
story gimmick is strictly a sci-fi time-warp wrinkle, with the Enterprise's Dr.
McCoy - "Bones" - swept up into another time and another world, and Captain
Kirk and spock tracking him down. McCoy has wound up, sick and incapacitated,
in a mission for poor souls during the Great Depression in New York. Joan is a
female mission worker fascinated with the charms and the utter charisma of none
other than Adolph Hitler! She's quite probably a Nazi plant. Kirk falls in
love with her and seems to be swallowing her Nazi philosophy. Spock warns Kirk
that Hitler nearly ruined the world in the years following. When an
out-of-control truck threatens to kill Collins, Shatner at first leaps to the
rescue, but, recalling Spock's warning, lets fate take its course and allows
her to be killed, keeping the world from being destroyed by the monster of
Berlin - through her proselytizing, presumably.
>>
EXHIBIT B: Past Imperfect, by Joan Collins, page 248:
>>
So I worked .... and 'Star Trek' - 'The City on the Edge of Forever' became one
of the most popular episodes. As Edith Cleaver [sic], a young mission worker
for down-and-out men in New York in the Depression, I try to prove to the world
that Hitler was a nice guy. Bill Shatner as Captain Kirk falls in love with
Edith, and Dr. Spock [sic] - he of the ears - allows her to get run over by a
truck lest her teachings lead the world to total destruction.
>>
I don't know about you, but I say that she says this because it's the way she
remembers it. If it were a joke, there would come a point where she laughs and
says "April Fool", instead of just leaving us laughing at her. If it's a joke,
it's a pretty lame one. Anybody can get their facts wrong (just look at any
Stephan Dulka post). You need more than that to get the laugh on you side.
GeneK
"ToolPackinMama" <la...@lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:40C7DCC5...@lauragoodwin.org...
> No offense intended, GeneK, but, you're weird. :)
Tell me something that everybody doesn't already know. :))
GeneK
GeneK
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote...
> I don't know about you, but I say that she says this because it's the way
she
> remembers it.
That could be too. Or, it could simply be that Collins was a Brit who
lived her childhood during WWII and regarded Edith as the female
version of Neville Chamberlain. Lots of Brits of her generation
probably think it would have been a good thing if Chamberlain had
gotten run down by a truck in NYC rather than becoming PM.
GeneK
Graeme
>lived her childhood during WWII and regarded Edith as the female
>version of Neville Chamberlain. Lots of Brits of her generation
>probably think it would have been a good thing if Chamberlain had
>gotten run down by a truck in NYC rather than becoming PM.
>
>GeneK
Maybe, and that may very well help explain why she made the mistake. But you
haven't really presented anything that remotely suggests that it isn't a
mistake.
If it were a joke, it's a pretty lame one. It's based strictly on facts. If
you know the facts, you know it's wrong. If you don't, you won't. To do a
joke like you're describing the *right* way, it has to be something where it
*should* be obvious to any sensible person that it's a put on. That way when
you find out it's wrong, you just feel silly, rather than lied to.
By an amazing coinciden, I have an example of just such a thing here.
Something Anim8r mailed me the other day. Have a look at this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3819809140&sspagename=S
TRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
GeneK
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote...
> Maybe, and that may very well help explain why she made the mistake. But you
> haven't really presented anything that remotely suggests that it isn't a
> mistake.
Philosophically, I would question whether someone who perceives a
pre-WWII peace activist as an appeaser/Nazi sympathizer would ever
consider that perception a "mistake." I've known more than one Brit
of WWII vintage who actually used the word "traitor" in reference to
Chamberlain. Once you've herd a buzzbomb fly over your head, anyone
who is less than virulently anti-Nazi probably may sound like a member
of the Bundt, making Edith at best an idiot and at worst...well, you get
the picture.
> If it were a joke, it's a pretty lame one. It's based strictly on facts. If
> you know the facts, you know it's wrong. If you don't, you won't. To do a
> joke like you're describing the *right* way, it has to be something where it
> *should* be obvious to any sensible person that it's a put on. That way when
> you find out it's wrong, you just feel silly, rather than lied to.
Or it may just be an indication of how trivially unimportant the role
was to her...
Graeme
>pre-WWII peace activist as an appeaser/Nazi sympathizer would ever
>consider that perception a "mistake." I've known more than one Brit
>of WWII vintage who actually used the word "traitor" in reference to
>Chamberlain. Once you've herd a buzzbomb fly over your head, anyone
>who is less than virulently anti-Nazi probably may sound like a member
>of the Bundt, making Edith at best an idiot and at worst...well, you get
>the picture.
Well, we're getting a bit afield here, but (though I admit it's highly
debatable) a case can be made even for Chamberlain.
Was "England's Great Pre-War Joke" a joke? Of course it was. Did Chamberlain
know it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the popular idea that France and England
could have cleaned Germany's chronometer had they gone to war in 1938, over the
Sudetenland, may or may not be true.
England wasn't very ready for war in 1939, but they were even less ready in
1938. The overall balance of ground forces was favorable on paper, but Germany
had more armour. In addition, the Germans had more planes (about 2800 to 2300
Allied, many of them obsolete, while the German stuff was state of the art).
In 1939, things were MUCH better for them. The ground force ratio was up
slightly (from about 1.12:1 to 1.16:1), and they were slightly ahead in planes
(up from about .82:1 to about 1.03:1)
In addition, the situation in Czechoslovakia was dicier. All their neighbors,
not just Germany had claims against them, and quite a lot of the Czech army was
made up of Germans, the very Sudeteners that the crisis revolved around.
Chamberlains advisors had said that the chances of defending England from air
attack in 1938 were not good. He didn't especially want to go to war then.
Hitler, on the other hand wanted it to come to a fight in 1938, and was quite
annoyed with Mussolini for helping broker a peace and then bragging about it.
Next year, when the next crisis came up, and Chamberlain went to his advisors
again and asked what the chances were of defending England, the situation was
worlds better. Hurricanes and Spitfires were now available in great numbers,
and the magic "Chain Home" radar system was in place. Their odds were better,
Chamberlain issued an ultimatum, and England was soon in a war. He may very
well have saved the country by waiting.
Or not. It's debatable, as I say, but at least the guy was far from a traitor.
For whatever Churchill's opinion is worth, when he took over, he chose to keep
Chamberlain informed of every development in the war, and sought his advice on
diplomatic matters.
>Or it may just be an indication of how trivially unimportant the role
>was to her...
>
>GeneK
>
ExACTLY. She just got it wrong, and not on purpose. And she got it wrong
*because* the role was so unimportant to her that she barely remembered it.
Which is fine. I don't demand that every guest star on the show be a
Trekvangelist. Probably a lot of them were hostile to the show (television and
science fiction both being somewhat looked down upon) and held their nose
because it was a job.
No criticism so far, but if she's going to write about it in a book, then
obviously writing from memory about something so unimportant to her wasn't such
a hot idea. A book calls for doing your homework a lot better than she did it
in this case.
GeneK
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
> Was "England's Great Pre-War Joke" a joke? Of course it was. Did Chamberlain
> know it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the popular idea that France and England
> could have cleaned Germany's chronometer had they gone to war in 1938, over the
> Sudetenland, may or may not be true.
Well, as I said, it's more a perception than anything else. After the fact
of WWII, anyone who had ever even suggested that the mad house painter
could be reasoned with was probably in for a public opinion drubbing
regardless of the actual facts.
> No criticism so far, but if she's going to write about it in a book, then
> obviously writing from memory about something so unimportant to her wasn't such
> a hot idea. A book calls for doing your homework a lot better than she did it
> in this case.
I suspect that Collins is not losing any sleep about the inaccuracies in her book,
and that this particular one is far from the biggest one there is.
ToolPackinMama
> ExACTLY. She just got it wrong, and not on purpose. And she got it wrong
> *because* the role was so unimportant to her that she barely remembered it.
That wa my impression, too.
Graeme
>book,
>and that this particular one is far from the biggest one there is.
>
>GeneK
Scary thought, but probably true. In any case, I don't think it was an
intentional joke. The only real joke here (obvious in retrospect, but not at
the time), is the whole idea of casting Joan Collins as the essence of
sweetness and innocence.