Who conquered the Vulcans? CONSCIENCE OF THE KING
John Crane
Spock, who refuses. McCoy then states that's why they were conquered.
It may be a joke that the lack of drinking was a reason for defeat. But it
doesn't seem right that McCoy would joke about being conquered - whatever
the reason.
In the 1st season of TOS, was Vulcan considered a "conquered" species? They
may be scientifically advanced, but they are pure pacifists...
-J
Quadibloc
In an Enterprise episode, ongoing hostilities between the Vulcans and
one of the species which appeared in the episode Journey to Babel were
depicted... doesn't mean it had to be them, but it could have been.
On the other hand, in TOS, it looked as though humans discovered
Vulcan instead of Vulcans discovering Earth - and Kirk was superior to
Spock as we were to believe that humans, despite their
rambunctiousness as against Vulcan serenity, were superior to Vulcans.
Instead of humans being very junior members of the cosmos, as First
Contact and Enterprise established.
John Savard
ToolPackinMama
> This could have happened in distant history.
>
> In an Enterprise episode, ongoing hostilities between the Vulcans and
> one of the species which appeared in the episode Journey to Babel were
> depicted... doesn't mean it had to be them, but it could have been.
>
> On the other hand, in TOS, it looked as though humans discovered
> Vulcan instead of Vulcans discovering Earth
In TOS, it looked like Vulcans were one of the founders of the UFP.
Vulcans were totally respected, and never seemed in any way to be
"second class citizens".
ToolPackinMama
> In the scene where McCoy is taking a drink in sickbay, he offers a drink to
> Spock, who refuses. McCoy then states that's why they were conquered.
Spock: "My father's race was spared the dubious benefits of alcohol."
McCoy: "Oh. Now I know why they were conquered."
Wow! Interesting. I never noticed that before.
Vulcans were one of the founders of the UFP. If they were "conquered",
ever, it wasn't by the UFP, since conquest is not what the UFP is about.
Could be McCoy is being hilariously inaccurate about the inclusion of
the Vulcans in the early UFP. He is the kind of guy who would casually
do that. Nothing in anything else remotely TOS-related classes the
Vulcans as a "conquered" race.
Could be this is one of those things like lithium/dilithium, Space
Central/Starfleet Command, or Vulcanian/Vulcan. One of the early things
they later changed/refined.
ToolPackinMama
> On the other hand, in TOS, it looked as though humans discovered
> Vulcan instead of Vulcans discovering Earth
That never was stated outright, nor implied in any way.... but it was a
common assumption I am sure.
The movie that showed Vulcans discovering/encountering Earth was sooooo
cool. :) Primarily because it challenged our assumptions, the way we
expect Trek to do.
ToolPackinMama
>
> Could be McCoy is being hilariously inaccurate about the inclusion of
> the Vulcans in the early UFP. He is the kind of guy who would casually
> do that.
Beware the speaker. McCoy especially is not reliable if you are quoting
characters for Trek "facts".
McCoy is famously over-emotional, and he often is just plain inaccurate.
Graeme
> In the 1st season of TOS, was Vulcan considered a "conquered" species? They
> may be scientifically advanced, but they are pure pacifists...
That one throwaway line is the only time it's mentioned. There's a
reference or two to a "Vulcanian Expedition", which sounds like some
Federation attempt to make contact with them, but otherwise the
Vulcans are very mysterious and unexplained in Season 1. (I don't
think they even established that they were pacifists then.) All we
know is it was something recent, because Kirk tells the guy in the bar
"I haven't seen you since the Vulcanian expedition." The conquest
line was probably a one-shot "joke" with nothing broader in mind, and
no idea that anyone would remember it later. The way McCoy phrased
it, it didn't sound like he meant the Federation had conquered them.
It sounds odd today, but a lot of the Spock/McCoy banter does,
especially McCoy's constant jabs about Spock's physiology. I never
understood what he was getting at. ("You just straighten up, fly
right, and get some red blood in your veins, Mister!" "But wouldn't
that be fatal?" "It's a small price to pay.")
John Crane
Maybe the early UESPA days. Or maybe Vulcan was conquered by the Romulans
in the early war mentioned in Balance of Terror. (conquered but not
occupied - otherwise the Vulcans would know what they look like). I could
see the humans and Vulcans as allies driving back the Romulans. Maybe all
that war/mayhem helped to bring about the UFP. Much in the same way WWII
brought about the UN.
It makes no sense if the "conquered" statement is a throwaway line by McCoy.
It's not simply an exaggeration - it just doesn't make sense in context if
it has no basis in fact. Imagine asking someone the time and they respond
with: "that's why the door is blue." - completely unrelated and nonsensical.
McCoy would more likely comment on lack of feeling/emotions being related to
a lack of drinking.
I'm also aware that the 1st season was a formative time. What I'm trying to
determine is the ORIGINAL intention of Gene & the writers. Not what Trek
evolved into - that we already know.
-J
Steven L.
"ToolPackinMama" <philn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i6765l$dsl$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
Yep.
In "Immunity Syndrome," Spock says that Vulcan has never been conquered
at any time in the collective memory of Vulcans.
Just one of several continuity problems.
-- Steven L.
Anim8rFSK
"John Crane" <john_c...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If Vulcan was conquered by the humans, I presume it was in the pre-UFP era.
> Maybe the early UESPA days. Or maybe Vulcan was conquered by the Romulans
> in the early war mentioned in Balance of Terror. (conquered but not
> occupied - otherwise the Vulcans would know what they look like). I could
> see the humans and Vulcans as allies driving back the Romulans. Maybe all
> that war/mayhem helped to bring about the UFP. Much in the same way WWII
> brought about the UN.
>
> It makes no sense if the "conquered" statement is a throwaway line by McCoy.
Consider that 'your people' might not mean 'the Planet Vulcan' -- might
mean Spock's specific tribe.
--
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Graeme
> Or maybe Vulcan was conquered by the Romulans
> in the early war mentioned in Balance of Terror.
If they were conquered, and if it was by someone we've heard of, the
Romulans are probably the most likely culprits (but in that case, how
could it be that no one knew that Romulans and Vulcans looked alike?
You say they mmight have been conquered, but not occupied, but I'm not
sure what that means in this case). The Klingons are another suspect,
of course, although nobody had heard of the Klingons when this episode
was written.
The whole line is very odd. Spock refers to Vulcans as "my father's
race", almost as if he's distancing himself from them, which is very
odd for him.
> It makes no sense if the "conquered" statement is a throwaway line by McCoy.
> It's not simply an exaggeration - it just doesn't make sense in context if
> it has no basis in fact.
It does if McCoy believes it has a basis in fact, but in that case, it
would also be unusual for Spock to not correct him on it.
> I'm also aware that the 1st season was a formative time. What I'm trying to
> determine is the ORIGINAL intention of Gene & the writers. Not what Trek
> evolved into - that we already know.
Barry Trivers had no intention of telling any more of the backstory
than he did. And if he'd been working off some pre-established part
of the backstory, it would have been mentioned in the Story Bible. It
was probably jus something that sounded good that they stuck in there
with a view to developing it later if they liked it, and forgetting it
if they didn't. Nevertheless, it is there, and a most annoying line,
reminiscent of the cats of Queen Beruthiel (one of the very few
totally unexplained back references in The Lord of the Rings.
Graeme
> Consider that 'your people' might not mean 'the Planet Vulcan' -- might
> mean Spock's specific tribe.
That's possible too. When he said "my father's race", he might have
been referring to a specific group of Vulcans. The line becomes
pretty silly that way, becase surely if one tribe of Vulcans is immune
to alcohol, they probably all are, you'd think.
Jim Gysin
Steven L. sent the following on 9/8/2010 10:32 AM:
Yep. Again, there are plenty of story and backstory inconsistencies
even before TOS ended, so for anyone to pick a point *after* TOS and
claim that *that* was the point where "the franchise" ended (due to a
failure to follow some bible or other) is ... problematic.
--
Jim Gysin
Waukesha, WI
Steven L.
"Jim Gysin" <jimg...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:i6big9$5fp$2...@news.eternal-september.org:
While Roddenberry was alive, Trek canon was whatever he insisted it was.
But after he passed away, that responsibility passed to Paramount, which
allowed ENT to make some choices that are hard to justify even with a
lot of retconning.
-- Steven L.
Steven L.
When was McCoy ever inaccurate?
-- Steven L.
ToolPackinMama
> "ToolPackinMama" <philn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:i677bc$s74$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>> Beware the speaker. McCoy especially is not reliable if you are quoting
>> characters for Trek "facts".
>>
>> McCoy is famously over-emotional, and he often is just plain inaccurate.
>
> When was McCoy ever inaccurate?
Hee hee!
A little Googling and I found a bunch of McCoy's colorful and often just
plain questionable remarks:
"The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe."
"It's a song, you green-blooded...Vulcan. You sing it. The words aren't
important. What's important is that you have a good time singing it."
"I signed aboard this ship to practice medicine, not to have my atoms
scattered back and forth across space by this gadget."
"By golly, Jim... I'm beginning to think I can cure a rainy day!"
"I'm not a magician, Spock. I'm just an old country doctor."
"I'm trying to thank you, you pointed-eared hobgoblin!"
"Do you know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? Because you're more
afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might
slip and let your human half peak out!"
"Jim, you don't ask the Almighty for his I.D.!"
"There are rules, even in war – you don't keep hacking at a man after
he's down!"
"War is never imperative."
"I don't make house calls."
"Space is danger and disease wrapped in darkness and silence."
"Blast medicine anyway! We've learned to tie into every organ in the
human body but one. The brain! The brain is what life is all about."
"Killing is stupid; useless!"
"Don't risk your life on a theory!"
"Monsters come in many forms. And do you know the greatest monster of
them all? Guilt."
"Man is not just a biological unit that you can patch together."
"In the long history of medicine, no doctor has ever caught the first
few minutes of a play."
"When the personality of a human is involved, exact predictions are
hazardous."
"We all have our darker side. We need it; it's half of what we are. It's
not really ugly, it's human."
And my personal favorite:
"You're dead, Jim." (Spoken to a living Jim Kirk)
ToolPackinMama
> On 9/11/2010 8:55 PM, Steven L. wrote:
> > "ToolPackinMama" <philn...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:i677bc$s74$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>
> >> Beware the speaker. McCoy especially is not reliable if you are
quoting
> >> characters for Trek "facts".
> >>
> >> McCoy is famously over-emotional, and he often is just plain
> inaccurate.
> >
> > When was McCoy ever inaccurate?
> "The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe."
As Spock might say, "Really, Doctor?"
> "It's a song, you green-blooded...Vulcan. You sing it. The words aren't
> important. What's important is that you have a good time singing it."
The words of a song aren't important? Many lyricists would take issue
with that view.
> "I signed aboard this ship to practice medicine, not to have my atoms
> scattered back and forth across space by this gadget."
OK, to begin with, the gadget doesn't scatter atoms back and forth...
not when it's working correctly, anyway. And if you sign aboard a space
ship, then yes, you did sign up for it. If you want to practice
medicine without that requirement, then don't agree to a job on a star ship.
> "By golly, Jim... I'm beginning to think I can cure a rainy day!"
You are a doctor, not a meteorologist.
> "I'm not a magician, Spock. I'm just an old country doctor."
Look, you are in fact the exact opposite of a country doctor. You are
the head physician on a top-of-the-line star ship, for cryin' out loud.
> "I'm trying to thank you, you pointed-eared hobgoblin!"
Got a funny way of saying it.
> "Do you know why you're not afraid to die, Spock? Because you're more
> afraid of living. Each day you stay alive is just one more day you might
> slip and let your human half peak out!"
Spock's reaction to this was exactly what it should be. [Dryly, with
evident disdain] "Really, Doctor!?"
> "Jim, you don't ask the Almighty for his I.D.!"
Sez who, Doctor?
> "There are rules, even in war – you don't keep hacking at a man after
> he's down!"
Wow, where are they having this very polite war?
> "War is never imperative."
Hmf. Sez you, doctor.
> "I don't make house calls."
Oh, but he does. For example he called on the Horta in her den.
> "Space is danger and disease wrapped in darkness and silence."
Nobody he said he wasn't a poet.
> "Blast medicine anyway! We've learned to tie into every organ in the
> human body but one. The brain! The brain is what life is all about."
Wow! Just... wow.
> "Killing is stupid; useless!"
No comment.
> "Don't risk your life on a theory!"
Oh? Like you did in Miri when you injected yourself with your home-made
vaccine?
> "Monsters come in many forms. And do you know the greatest monster of
> them all? Guilt."
I actually can think of bigger monsters.
> "Man is not just a biological unit that you can patch together."
Both in Spock's Brain, and ST3, patching Spock back together into his
biological form was the entire issue. It may not be all he is, but it
is all that the story was about. And McCoy was central to success in
both cases. In short, he says one thing and does another.
> "In the long history of medicine, no doctor has ever caught the first
> few minutes of a play."
I betcha there has been at least one.
> "When the personality of a human is involved, exact predictions are
> hazardous."
Debatable.
> "We all have our darker side. We need it; it's half of what we are. It's
> not really ugly, it's human."
This is cute, because he is saying this to Spock, knowing all the while
that (in Star Trek) "WE" aren't all human.
--
Fix climate change, or even the rich will suffer.
char...@gmail.com
1. This was the pilot, which didn't even air in full until about 20 years after it was created. It was presented in pieces as a retrospective partway through the first season. This being the case, the cast, as well as the whole world view was still being modified.
2. Leonard Nimoy hadn't even invented the Vulcan nerve grip yet (yes, it was his addition to the script in a place where he was supposed to knock an opponent out, but he felt it was out of character, and it caught on). But in the pilot, you see him duking it out and yelling orders in quite a different manner from his later performances.
3. While we can debate whether or not the doctor was trying to just annoy Spock with the comment about being defeated, a key point to realize is that he doesn't dispute it, or even respond to it. Considering his consistent shrugging off of insults by McCoy over the years, contradicting any errors and inconsistencies, or just accepting insults as compliments, this simple statement would indicate that in an early draft of the series (possibly before humans learned to be more "enlightened"), Starfleet could have been a human-dominated militaristic organization which initially subdued the more peaceful Vulcans.
Wouter Valentijn
>> In the scene where McCoy is taking a drink in sickbay, he offers a drink to
>> Spock, who refuses. McCoy then states that's why they were conquered.
>>
>> It may be a joke that the lack of drinking was a reason for defeat. But it
>> doesn't seem right that McCoy would joke about being conquered - whatever
>> the reason.
>>
>> In the 1st season of TOS, was Vulcan considered a "conquered" species? They
>> may be scientifically advanced, but they are pure pacifists...
>>
>> -J
>
> Consider a few things...
>
> 1. This was the pilot, which didn't even air in full until about 20 years after it was created. It was presented in pieces as a retrospective partway through the first season. This being the case, the cast, as well as the whole world view was still being modified.
>
'The Cage' was, and after that 'Where No Man Has Gone Before'. Later
material from 'the Cage' was used in 'The Menagerie', the only TOS two
parter.
But yeah, things were still being worked out.
> 2. Leonard Nimoy hadn't even invented the Vulcan nerve grip yet (yes, it was his addition to the script in a place where he was supposed to knock an opponent out, but he felt it was out of character, and it caught on). But in the pilot, you see him duking it out and yelling orders in quite a different manner from his later performances.
>
(both in production and broadcast order).
'The Conscience of the King' was produced and broadcast as episode 13.
> 3. While we can debate whether or not the doctor was trying to just annoy Spock with the comment about being defeated, a key point to realize is that he doesn't dispute it, or even respond to it. Considering his consistent shrugging off of insults by McCoy over the years, contradicting any errors and inconsistencies, or just accepting insults as compliments, this simple statement would indicate that in an early draft of the series (possibly before humans learned to be more "enlightened"), Starfleet could have been a human-dominated militaristic organization which initially subdued the more peaceful Vulcans.
>
days they always called the Enterprise an Earth ship.
The Federation was first mentioned in 'A Taste of Armageddon' (the 24th
episode produced, 23d broadcast).
I think you are right about the possibility that in those early days
Earth was more aggressive and had conquered other worlds. Maybe a bit
like European powers that conquered other lands on other continents.
In canon there might be something that hints at some type of conquest.
See the series Star Trek Enterprise. The Vulcan arc of the episodes The
Forge, Awakening and Kir'Shara.
But that really is a stretch. :-)
--
www.woutervalentijn.net
Abraham Ford: "Nibble on that."
The Walking Dead (s06e09): 'No Way Out'
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Daniel47
> Op 23-5-2016 om 23:58 schreef char...@gmail.com:
>> On Monday, September 6, 2010 at 5:50:56 PM UTC-5, John Crane wrote:
>>> In the scene where McCoy is taking a drink in sickbay, he offers a
>>> drink to
>>> Spock, who refuses. McCoy then states that's why they were conquered.
>>>
>>> It may be a joke that the lack of drinking was a reason for defeat.
>>> But it
>>> doesn't seem right that McCoy would joke about being conquered -
>>> whatever
>>> the reason.
>>>
>>> In the 1st season of TOS, was Vulcan considered a "conquered"
>>> species? They
>>> may be scientifically advanced, but they are pure pacifists...
>>>
>>> -J
>>
>> Consider a few things...
>>
>> 1. This was the pilot, which didn't even air in full until about 20
>> years after it was created. It was presented in pieces as a
>> retrospective partway through the first season. This being the case,
>> the cast, as well as the whole world view was still being modified.
>>
>
> Nope, 'Conscience of the King' was never a pilot.
> 'The Cage' was, and after that 'Where No Man Has Gone Before'. Later
> material from 'the Cage' was used in 'The Menagerie', the only TOS two
> parter.
an extended show, presented by Patrick Stewart, in which the first half
was the "Premier" of "The Cage". Strange coupling, but anyway .....
Daniel
edrh...@hotmail.com
edrh...@hotmail.com
Wouter Valentijn
Maybe the idea of that First Federation inspired the idea to come up
with the UFP later on. They are however of course two separate entities.
BTW, I see now that the Federation was first referred to in 'Arena'
(production number 20, 18th broadcast). ATOA was the first ep to give it
it's full name.
TCM had a number of 'firsts': McCoy, Rand and Uhura showed up for the
first time. So did the red shirt! :-)