Just How Many Ships Does Starfleet Have?

[CWalker804]

Hello fellow Trekkers, I have a good one for you.

I'm sure you all remember "Best Of Both Worlds Pt 2", when in the final scene
Commander Shelby informs Capt. Picard that they'll have the fleet back up in a
year, after losing 39 star ships combined with a loss of life totalling 11,000
(which was confirmed in "The Drumhead" by Admiral Sattie when she was
interrogating Picard).

Later on in the TNG's fourth season in an episode entitled "The Wounded" in
which Chief O' Brian's former Capt. Ben Maxwell went on a quest for revenge
over what the Cardassians had done to his family, Picard was told by Starfleet
Command to "preserve the peace, no matter what the cost, as starfleet would be
unable to sustain a new conflict after suffering such heavy damage by the
Borg".

Therefore my question is, if after losing 39 starships, starfleet was unable to
withstand a renewed conflict seven years ago, then how in hell can starfleet
continue to operate after losing 98 starships of the 7th fleet in DS9's "A Time
To Stand", plus God knows how many ships from Sisko's fleet, as in his own
words "We lost alot of good people".

From Commander Shelby's words, it sounded as though half of Starfleet had been
destroyed when Picard was assimilated. Now triple that amount of ships have
been destroyed only 7 years later and Starfleet still seems vast and capable of
holding it's own. But the thing that depresses me is not how many ships have
been destroyed, but how many lives have been lost. After watching "A Time To
Stand" I was heavy-hearted for several days after. By my calculations, at least
30,000 starfleet officers have already been killed in this Dominion war.

On another point, why in hell hasn't starfleet built more ships like the
Defiant. That ship could bust up the Enterprise D in no time, because it's
Starfleet's only Warship whereas the E-D was more like a luxury cruise liner. I
know there were design problems at the start, but Sisko and his crew seem to
have ironed those out. It's only logical. Build some more. In fact when
Starfleet has to go to war all crews should be given a Defiant type ship to
use. In peacetime use their normal starships to explore space and meet new
cultures.

Before any one tells me that would be too expensive, in Picard's own words to
Lily in Star Trek - First Contact: "Money no longer exists in the 24th
century". Therefore starfleet should be able to accomplish this feat easily.

[ooo]

there r about 600+ ships in sisko's fleet (2 fleets ). there r atleast 9
fleets feds have. i guess SF has atleast 2000+ ships

[MICHAEL SHEFFLER]

Here's the deal: after the Borg threat Starfleet went balls to the floor
with ship construction. Before the Borg there really wasn't any MAJOR
threat. Romulans weren't around for at least 30 years and the Klingons
were now allies. But, since the Borg, there's been nothin' but trouble
so Starfleet's been goin' nuts with shipbuliding. Also, if you look VERY
closely at any of the past DS9episodes that feature a mass armada of
starfleet ships, you'll notice at least 2 or 3 Defiant class ships
running around. Not to mention the recent Voyager episode.

[Mike Gasper]

CWalker804 wrote:
>
> Hello fellow Trekkers, I have a good one for you.
>
> I'm sure you all remember "Best Of Both Worlds Pt 2", when in the final scene
> Commander Shelby informs Capt. Picard that they'll have the fleet back up in a
> year, after losing 39 star ships combined with a loss of life totalling 11,000
> (which was confirmed in "The Drumhead" by Admiral Sattie when she was
> interrogating Picard).
>
> Later on in the TNG's fourth season in an episode entitled "The Wounded" in
> which Chief O' Brian's former Capt. Ben Maxwell went on a quest for revenge
> over what the Cardassians had done to his family, Picard was told by Starfleet
> Command to "preserve the peace, no matter what the cost, as starfleet would be
> unable to sustain a new conflict after suffering such heavy damage by the
> Borg".
>
> Therefore my question is, if after losing 39 starships, starfleet was unable to
> withstand a renewed conflict seven years ago, then how in hell can starfleet
> continue to operate after losing 98 starships of the 7th fleet in DS9's "A Time
> To Stand", plus God knows how many ships from Sisko's fleet, as in his own
> words "We lost alot of good people".

If you hadn't fought any major wars for decades, and ships where rarely
ever lost to an enemy, and you believed that your technology would allow
you to defeat any potential enemy, and one day a single enemy ship
wanders through and effortlessly destroys 39 of your ships (even if it
was out of 2000-3000 ships) without you even being able to scratch it,
would you be worried? The fact that the fleet would be back up within a
year shows that the Federation would have now problem of putting out 40
ships a year. So unless the average starship is only in service for ten
years (which we know not to be true) a fleet of 2000-3000 ships does not
seem overly large. The reason the Federation was so worried about
losing 39 starships was that they could not even cause any damage to the
Borg cube, such an enemy would have had no problem going through a
thousand ships.

> From Commander Shelby's words, it sounded as though half of Starfleet had been
> destroyed when Picard was assimilated. Now triple that amount of ships have
> been destroyed only 7 years later and Starfleet still seems vast and capable of
> holding it's own.

Look at the difference of the strength of the United States military
between 1938 and 1945. Six years, but a circumstances forced the US to
achieve advancements in order to survive. The Federation has run into
the same circumstances. Faced with an enemy that they could not defeat,
the worked hard to create new and stronger weapons (quantum torpedo,
etc.) to fight the Borg. In First Contact, the Federation fleet fought
the Borg for several hours (running from the Typhon sector, all the way
to Earth) and the Borg cube showed visible damage. While the Borg can
adapt (and quickly) they are briefly vulnerable to new weapons. And
since the Borg need to stop all fighting to regenerate, if you
continually hammer the Borg, you can eventually wear them down to the
point where they can be defeated. But next time the same weapons that
affected the Borg before they adapted will not work, this situation has
forced the Federation to be innovative and to continue developing new
and more powerful weapons. So, we could actually say the the Borg have
allowed the Federation to hold their own against the Dominion. :-)

> On another point, why in hell hasn't starfleet built more ships like the
> Defiant. That ship could bust up the Enterprise D in no time, because it's
> Starfleet's only Warship whereas the E-D was more like a luxury cruise liner. I
> know there were design problems at the start, but Sisko and his crew seem to
> have ironed those out. It's only logical. Build some more. In fact when
> Starfleet has to go to war all crews should be given a Defiant type ship to
> use. In peacetime use their normal starships to explore space and meet new
> cultures.

Watch DS9 "Call to Arms" and Voy "Message in a Bottle".

> Before any one tells me that would be too expensive, in Picard's own words to
> Lily in Star Trek - First Contact: "Money no longer exists in the 24th
> century". Therefore starfleet should be able to accomplish this feat easily.

But is still would be expensive, because resources are still finite.

-Mike Gasper.

[Mario Ferrucci]

CWalker804 wrote:
>
> Hello fellow Trekkers, I have a good one for you.
>
> I'm sure you all remember "Best Of Both Worlds Pt 2", when in the final scene
> Commander Shelby informs Capt. Picard that they'll have the fleet back up in a
> year, after losing 39 star ships combined with a loss of life totalling 11,000
> (which was confirmed in "The Drumhead" by Admiral Sattie when she was
> interrogating Picard).
>
> Later on in the TNG's fourth season in an episode entitled "The Wounded" in
> which Chief O' Brian's former Capt. Ben Maxwell went on a quest for revenge
> over what the Cardassians had done to his family, Picard was told by Starfleet
> Command to "preserve the peace, no matter what the cost, as starfleet would be
> unable to sustain a new conflict after suffering such heavy damage by the
> Borg".
>
> Therefore my question is, if after losing 39 starships, starfleet was unable to
> withstand a renewed conflict seven years ago, then how in hell can starfleet
> continue to operate after losing 98 starships of the 7th fleet in DS9's "A Time
> To Stand", plus God knows how many ships from Sisko's fleet, as in his own
> words "We lost alot of good people".
>

> From Commander Shelby's words, it sounded as though half of Starfleet had been
> destroyed when Picard was assimilated. Now triple that amount of ships have
> been destroyed only 7 years later and Starfleet still seems vast and capable of

> holding it's own. But the thing that depresses me is not how many ships have
> been destroyed, but how many lives have been lost. After watching "A Time To
> Stand" I was heavy-hearted for several days after. By my calculations, at least
> 30,000 starfleet officers have already been killed in this Dominion war.
>

> On another point, why in hell hasn't starfleet built more ships like the
> Defiant. That ship could bust up the Enterprise D in no time, because it's
> Starfleet's only Warship whereas the E-D was more like a luxury cruise liner. I
> know there were design problems at the start, but Sisko and his crew seem to
> have ironed those out. It's only logical. Build some more. In fact when
> Starfleet has to go to war all crews should be given a Defiant type ship to
> use. In peacetime use their normal starships to explore space and meet new
> cultures.
>

> Before any one tells me that would be too expensive, in Picard's own words to
> Lily in Star Trek - First Contact: "Money no longer exists in the 24th
> century". Therefore starfleet should be able to accomplish this feat easily.
>
>

I am as perplexed as you are. In Best of Both Worlds one got the
impression that starfleet could not of had more than 100 ships(and that
is being very generous) I am as intrigued as you. I hope someone can
come up with a logical explanation for this.

But it is quite common for the writers to loose continuity over the span
of two series, (TNG,DS9) there just isn't enough effort put into making
the Star Trek universe more plausible or at least keeping such factors
as military capabilty consistent. I just hope Star trek do not continue
to overlook these inconsistencies in future episodes. I heard that for
the season 6 finale the Dominion reach sector 001 Earth, in Apocalypse
burning. What will starfleet do? pull 100,000 ships out of their arse,
pleeease! no!

[Adam Hodkin]

Clearly, Shelby was referring only to the specific fleet defending Earth,
and not all of Starfleet's "fleets". Starfleet appears to have at least 9
fleets that are now comprised of over 100 ships each (See: reference to 9th
Fleet in DS9).

Mario Ferrucci wrote in message <34E6D1...@tig.com.au>...

[Aaron Nagano]

It is always seemed clear to me that the Federation is very powerful
economically. With over 150 members plus their colonies and whatever
minor allies the Federation has, its industrial capacity must be
enormous-probably much larger than its Alpha quadrant neighbors.
However, in the early years of TNG, the Federation had not been involved
in any major, sustained conflict for decades. (Yes, I know about the
Cardassian wars, but no conflict presented in the show ever seemed to be
particularly large.)
The Borg incursion in TNG season three caused the loss of 39 ships and
11,000 lives, but in a federation with about a trillion inhabitants,
this is a very small number in absolute terms. To a small and highly
trained peacetime military, such a loss could be significant.
Presumably Federation defense spending and production has been
increasing ever since then, and it is not unreasonable to presume that
the Borg and Dominion threats have resulted in a massive expansion of
Starfleet.
t seems to me that the impact of military losses depends on many
factors, including the resources and economic capabilities of the nation
(or federation or empire), the size of the entire military, and the
quality and cost of the people and equipment lost. IMO Starfleet was a
small, elite force in seasons 1-3 of TNG, perhaps similar to the US Army
before WWII or more accurately, the UK army before WWII. THe losses at
Wolf 359 were significant, but Starfleet has grown to many times its
original size since then. Pearl Harbor was a devastating blow to the US
in the short term, but the US entered full production immediately
after. At Midway, the US could have lost several carriers, and this
would have hurt the Navy, but American shipyards could produce many more
vessels than that in a single year. The cost in trained and experienced
personnel would have been much more costly than the loss of the ships
themselves.
Anyway, in respoonse to the question of "how many ships," I would
speculate that there were only a few hundred warships in Starfleet
around the time of Wolf 359 and that there are currently a few thousand.
Anything less than several thousand during a major war seems far too
small, as I would expect that 150 member worlds + colonies and an
estimated one trillion inhabitants (assuming several billion per world)
would have a massive industrial potential.
There is only one thing about Starfleet that bothers me. Where are the
enlisted personnel and the NCOs? Everyone that we see in the show is an
officer; if fact, is O'Brien the only person in DS9/TNG who is not
commissioned?

Aaron

[Mark Weller]

Re: How Many Ships in Starfleet (TNG vs. DS9)?

Actually I've done some thinking on the subject as you will see. I didn't
mean this to become the foundation for a 20 page essay but it took on a life
of its own.

As I recall in the big battle to retake DS9, the Dominion fleet numbered
over
1300, "twice as much" as the Starfleet group led by Sisko. Meaning
Starfleet
had mustered some 600 ships, not including the Klingons and not including
the all the ships/fleets called for in the original plan (I recall one or
two
fleets being late and Sisko going without them). So one can assume by that
stage that Starfleet numbers about 1000 ships and that's after three months
of
grueling fighting with heavy losses.

Okay, first of all we've seen the introduction of much smaller craft,
runabouts, the fighter the Maquis were using (which Sisko used extensively,
and very badly, in the retaking of DS9). Those small craft weren't around
much on TNG (or weren't seen to be, which I'll expand on in a moment).
Assuming up to half the number of ships are those smaller craft, that means
there were probably 500-600 starships in Starfleet at the beginning of this
season of DS9.

Throughout most of TNG, I would assume that Starfleet numbered 100-150
starships (about 150 most of the time except for the aftermath of Wolf 359).
That would be an acceptable context for Shelby's comments. It would also be
supported by the 18 ship taskforce Picard used to blockade the
Romulan/Klingon border at the beginning of TNG's 5th season (Redemption
pt.2). Starfleet had to scrape to pull that many ships together (more than
10% of its strength) for an important, but not critical, mission. This
leads me to assume that somewhere in early DS9, Starfleet went on a building
spree (actually I have a feeling that it has more to do with the changes in
writing in recent DS9, but that doesn't count).

That isn't a big stretch. They had the reason to do so (unpredictable
relations with the Klingons, the Dominion, a renewed Borg assault, etc.) and
to build 1 or 2 starships per planet per year probably wouldn't be a great
strain on
resources. With over 150 planets (according to Picard in 1st Contact),
that's
200-300 ships per year, a sudden big increase that does tend to explain the
difference in Starfleet's size. It's also not unprecedented even by our own
recent history - look at the U.S. Navy which went from 4-5 big carriers in
1941 to 30-40 by war's end in 1945.

My question is: How do you man them? Using the Wolf 359 ratio of more than
300 per ship (which ignores survivors like Sisko), 150 ships requires
45,000-50,000 people in crew. I can accept building a ship in a year
(although the 20th century record for building a major warship is, I
believe,
13 months for H.M.S. Dreadnought in 1905-06, although the U.S. Navy may have
beaten that during WW2). However, given Starfleet's exacting standards, a
four-year training program for officers, the many 'erratic' (best or most
polite term I can think of) captains we've seen in all incarnations of Trek,
and 100,000 to 200,000 places to fill (not to mention the big increases also
required in support staff, groundpounders, etc.). Something has to give and
if I was actually living in the mid 2370s, I would expect to see Starfleet
officers going off their rocker at least once a day, which will make
interesting consequences for those living in paradise (Earth).

One final comment. Remember that you're also dealing with two points of
view in the service. Shelby and Picard are 'big-ship' officers and think,
and
express themselves, in those terms. A ship is a starship (capital ship).
Losing 39 on one day is a disaster of the highest proportions (to put in
perspective, the U.S lost eight battleships at Pearl Harbor, a 20th century
military 'disaster' and several of the lost ships were back in service
before
the end of WW2).

Sisko and company serve on small ships and to their thinking every last
runabout and shuttle is a ship. I don't recall that it was specified how
many
of the 98 'ships' that were lost in the 7th fleet were starships. That
total
probably includes everything from fighters to runabouts to shuttles to the
'captain's yacht' if there were any Galaxy-class ships present. Also
casualties probably weren't quite on the scale of Wolf 359 as the losses
incurred by the 7th fleet occurred over a longer timeperiod (and probably
several engagements) with surviving ships able to pick up escape pods and
beam survivors off doomed ships.

Which brings up another point: I've always been curious about how Sisko and
the other Saratoga survivors (and presumably, survivors from other ships)
were picked up or otherwise made their way back to Earth. A topic for
another day.

Mark Weller
Vancouver, BC Canada
mwe...@ihermes.com

CWalker804 wrote in message
<19980214214...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...

>Hello fellow Trekkers, I have a good one for you.

>I'm sure you all remember "Best Of Both Worlds Pt 2", when in the final
scene
>Commander Shelby informs Capt. Picard that they'll have the fleet back up
in a
>year, after losing 39 star ships combined with a loss of life totalling
11,000
>(which was confirmed in "The Drumhead" by Admiral Sattie when she was
>interrogating Picard).

>..my question is, if after losing 39 starships, starfleet was unable to

[CWalker804]

>Clearly, Shelby was referring only to the specific fleet defending Earth,
>and not all of Starfleet's "fleets". Starfleet appears to have at least 9
>fleets that are now comprised of over 100 ships each (See: reference to 9th
>Fleet in DS9).

I'm not buying this explanation. Admiral Hanson stated in Best Of Both Worlds
Pt 2 that Starfleet had asked the Klingons for their help, and even considered
opening up communications with the Romulans in order to defend Earth. That
statement suggests that Starfleet didn't have enough starships in total to
defend itself against the Borg.

And if Shelby was just referring to Earth's fleet of ships, then why couldn't
starfleet sustain a new conflict with the Cardassians if it had another 8 or 9
fleets at it's disposal.

[Eightfour]

>I'm not buying this explanation. Admiral Hanson stated in Best Of Both Worlds
>Pt 2 that Starfleet had asked the Klingons for their help, and even
>considered
>opening up communications with the Romulans in order to defend Earth. That
>statement suggests that Starfleet didn't have enough starships in total to
>defend itself against the Borg.
>
>And if Shelby was just referring to Earth's fleet of ships, then why couldn't
>starfleet sustain a new conflict with the Cardassians if it had another 8 or
>9
>fleets at it's disposal.
>
>
>
>
>

Ten bucks says that after the major butt-kicking they got from the Borg they
decided to build a few more ships. We (U.S. Folks, sorry to any non-U.S.
members) built one hell of a fleet after the sneak attack at Pearl. Star Fleet
with no money in the future could build a monster fleet or two without any
problems. They probablly were building in response to the Borg and just
couldn't get them done fast enough. Then they kept on going afterwards because
they saw the need for a better defense.

Peace,
Andrew

[Isaac Abraham]

> Anyway, in respoonse to the question of "how many ships," I would
> speculate that there were only a few hundred warships in Starfleet
> around the time of Wolf 359 and that there are currently a few thousand.

The Defiant-class starship was the first Starfleet warship, made well
after the first borg incursion, and there are no way several thousand
of them.

> There is only one thing about Starfleet that bothers me. Where are
the
> enlisted personnel and the NCOs? Everyone that we see in the show
is an
> officer; if fact, is O'Brien the only person in DS9/TNG who is not
> commissioned?
>
> Aaron

There are numerous examples in DS9 of "non-comms". For instance, all
of O'Briens engineering crew seem to be. Nuniez, who dies in "The
Ship" was one, and in "Starship Down" O'Brien has to remind Worf that
the men down there are not starfleet officiers.

[Isaac Abraham]

> Ten bucks says that after the major butt-kicking they got from the Borg they
> decided to build a few more ships. We (U.S. Folks, sorry to any non-U.S.
> members) built one hell of a fleet after the sneak attack at Pearl. Star Fleet
> with no money in the future could build a monster fleet or two without any
> problems. They probablly were building in response to the Borg and just
> couldn't get them done fast enough. Then they kept on going afterwards because
> they saw the need for a better defense.
>
> Peace,
> Andrew

I've always thought that the "no money" in the 24th century was a
crock. What about latinum? and besides, in any time, you've still
got to have to pay for some stuff - a simple example would be a tutor
for whatever the hell you wanted to learn. Or anything.
On the other subject, well, although i'm in the UK and the infamous "A
Call To Arms" is premiering on Sky TV in a couple of weeks, I reckon
that since the Borg attack at Wolf 359, the Federation realised that
it was underprepared (badly) for any surprise attacks from any
neighbouring foes, so they decided to whip the fleet into shape.
Oh, and on the subject of the borg, in "the best of both worlds",
Shelby says that starfleet have been predicted 24 months for some new
weapons, like the "heavy graviton distortion wave" or whatever. Well,
where are they?
p.s is the new series (or season, if that's what you guys call it) of
voyager any good (the one continuing after the first episode with
species 8472)?

[Jay]

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:28:20 +1100, Mario Ferrucci <ri...@tig.com.au>
wrote:

>I am as perplexed as you are. In Best of Both Worlds one got the
>impression that starfleet could not of had more than 100 ships(and that
>is being very generous) I am as intrigued as you. I hope someone can
>come up with a logical explanation for this.
>
>But it is quite common for the writers to loose continuity over the span
>of two series, (TNG,DS9) there just isn't enough effort put into making
>the Star Trek universe more plausible or at least keeping such factors
>as military capabilty consistent. I just hope Star trek do not continue
>to overlook these inconsistencies in future episodes. I heard that for
>the season 6 finale the Dominion reach sector 001 Earth, in Apocalypse
>burning. What will starfleet do? pull 100,000 ships out of their arse,
>pleeease! no!

You have to imagine that the Federation is HUGE, it is over 8000 ly's,
a reference made in Trek to the size of the Federation. Perhaps 39
ships was most of Starfleet in those sectors that the borg penetrated
en route to earth. Remember that it's taking Voyager about 10 years to
travel 10 000 ly's so ( 70 years to travel 70 000 + ly's ) so it is
reasonable to believe that Starfleet may be stretched in certain
area's and huge in others ie Romulan Borders, Cardasian Borders etc,
and that it would probably be easier to build a fleet then send ships
from remote sectors.

Jay