Sons of Mogh
Philip Richard Yabut
Juan Espada <Juan....@54.sunshine.com> wrote:
> * Crossposted from: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
>DS9 - SONS OF MOGH
<created spoiler warning deleted>
>Goodbye, Tony Todd... I LOVE YOU, MAN!
I wouldn't write him off yet. Noggra is a friend of the House of Mogh, so
we might see him (and his new son, Rodek) again sometime. Also in "The
Sword of Kahless," we find out Worf still has a few friends in the Empire
who oppose Gowron, leaving the door open for a "second 'Redemption.'"
Also, I thought it was interesting that the Kurn-Worf story arc from TNG
has come fill circle. When we first meet Kurn in "Sins of the Father,"
he did not know that he was indeed a son of Mogh. Now, he again is
unaware of his true bloodline.
>Seems Jadzia has a crush on Worf! Oh my gosh...
It seems Worf has a thing for non-Klingons...
Phil
--
* * *
"Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination."
-Elim Garak, "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine"
Georgiana Gates
Arthur Lipscomb <ak...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Please help me. I think I missed something. Did Kurn ask Worf to remove
>his memories? If he didn't how could Bashir take part in wiping a
>person's memories because he's depressed. That sound totally illegal and
>morally objectionable to me.
>
I didn't see anything about Kurn asking for this, either. I agree with you
- how could Bashir do this without Kurn's permission?
I haven't seen "Ethics" in a long time, but I don't recall the name of the
Klingon ritual being the same in that show. I'm pretty sure that Riker, while
he refused to do the ritual killing, thought that Worf had the right to ask
someone else to do it. I'm not saying that Riker approved of the ritual,
merely that he thought Worf was within his rights to ask for it.
The makeup does make a difference - I thought Tony Todd wasn't near as good
as Kurn as he was as Jake.
Arthur Lipscomb
David Watts
>Please help me. I think I missed something. Did Kurn ask Worf to >remove his memories? If he didn't how could Bashir take part i=
n wiping >a person's memories because he's depressed? That sound totally illegal >and morally objectionable to me.
A far as I can recall, you are absoultely correct, Kurn did NOT make any
specific request to having his memory erased by Dr. Bashir (although he
did wish to be killed). Nevertheless, I totally agree with you, it was
COMPLETELY inappropriate for Dr. Bashir to wipe clean Kurn's memories
without his consent or approval. (Some would even question if it would've
been appropriate WITH Kurn's approval since Kurn was so manically
depressed!)
As far as I'm concerned, this is just the latest in degenerating
standards for Star Trek's philosophy of high morals and ethics. A few
weeks ago, in Voyager's "Threshold" (a memorable episode if ever there
was one!), The Voyager crew decided to leave behind the 'offspring' of
Janeway and Paris when they mated. When that happened, they were, and
rightfully so, denounced as "bad parents" for abandoning their offspring,
and the writers/producers were also criticized for presenting this
morally and ethically offensive material.
Now we see it being done again, although, in this case, not in VOYAGER,
but in DEEP SPACE NINE! This indicates to me that it's not VOYAGER, PER
SE, that's going downhill (although Voyager does seem to have had a
larger than average share of "bad" episodes recently), but it's ALL OF
STAR TREK. When the writers/producers show they don't care about the high
ethical and moral standards that Gene Roddenberry envisioned the
Starfleet Crew epitomizing in the 23rd/24th centuries, you know they have
basically turned their backs on the whole philosophy of Star Trek.
That one scene ruined the whole episode for me because, after it, all I
could think of was "THRESHOLD"!!
David Watts
Brian Hendrickson
Instead of dealing with the consequences of their character's actions,
the writers once again fell back on technobabble to solve their
problems!
Brian
Gene K
SE, that's going downhill (although Voyager does seem to have had a
larger than average share of "bad" episodes recently), but it's ALL OF
STAR TREK.>
Well, that's not surprising, since both shows are made by the same
people. Perhaps it's time to recognize that ST is no longer
Roddenberry's show (and hadn't been for a long time, not since his
health began to fail), and that the current crop of shows, for better
or worse, are contemporary reinterpretations by people who don't
necessarily consider themselves his disciples.
On the other hand, when reviewing the "bad" episodes of TOS, I'm not
certain that any of the current series' have "outbadded" "The Way to
Eden" yet.
Gene
Pat Spacek
: Now we see it being done again, although, in this case, not in VOYAGER,
: but in DEEP SPACE NINE! This indicates to me that it's not VOYAGER, PER
: larger than average share of "bad" episodes recently), but it's ALL OF
: Starfleet Crew epitomizing in the 23rd/24th centuries, you know they have
: basically turned their backs on the whole philosophy of Star Trek.
1. Despite the fact that armies of old school ST fans will probably kill
me for this, Gene Roddenberry's "vision" and moral standards were silly,
trite, and probably the single least interesting aspect of Trek. Wonder
why the first season of TNG was crap? Because the episodes abandoned
dramatic tension, moral ambiguity, etc., etc., etc., in exchange for
Gene's "vision". It's no coincidence that the best Trek (DS9) came AFTER
Roddenberry was out of the picture.
2. I agree that the ethics of wiping Kurn's memories is a tricky point
that should have been dealt with in the episode, but that's just sloppy
writing. It is not indicative of some wide-spread moral erosion in Trek.
Voyager is crap not because it's immoral, but because it's crap. It all
comes down to writing, not moral outlook. As Roddenberry showed us in the
first movie, the first season of TNG, even periodically during TOS (which
was probably LESS "moral" than DS9, when taken as a series anyway),
"vision" is no substitute for "story".
--
==============================================================================
| Pat Spacek psp...@waterloo.net http://www.waterloo.net/~pspacek |
| Visit The Parking Lot is Full Comic Page at http://www.waterloo.net/~plif |
==============================================================================
Wookie
and Cap. Sisko) who were so appalled by Worf's attempted
murder of his brother, have "murdered" Kurn. Although there
is some question as to the true nature of the "self" (or as
some refer to it, the "soul") it is pretty universally
accepted that the body is only a shell for the "self" -
Kurn simply no longer exists, as his essential "self" was
terminated by self-righteous Starfleet officers. How does
this fit in with Klingon beliefs? That issue was not brought
up, and I think it is important. Even though I do not
believe in a god or an afterlife, I would have respected
Kurn's beliefs. All this memory-wiping procedure served to
do was clear the consciences of all the non-Klingons
concerned, including Worf.
Forget the part about how he "could" possibly get
his memories back in the future. The doctor was skeptical,
and this was not the issue when Sisko OK'd the procedure to
terminate the essential Kurn. Starfleet committed murder
as surely as Worf had tried to when his brother first
requested the ritual.
I just found this very hypocritical on the part of the
humans and Starfleet. As usual (see Prime Directive,
sub-heading "The Ignoring Of")
E.W. Swan
> Please help me. I think I missed something. Did Kurn ask Worf to remove
> person's memories because he's depressed. That sound totally illegal and
> morally objectionable to me.
Arthur, I felt the same as you did, to a certain extent. On the other
hand, in retrospect, it beats the alternative -- the reason Kurn came to
the station in the first place: ritual suicide.
Did Kurn ask for the memory erasure? No. Was Worf within his rights to
ask Bashir to perform the procedure? As a Klingon, yes -- he was. Kurn
was more than resigned to his fate; his repeated statements to Worf that
his life was in Worf's hands made it clear that Kurn was through figuring
out ways to regain his honor. His failure to avoid the disruptor blast
was more or less the final straw. Worf probably felt Kurn's honor could
remain wholly intact if he neither consent to nor knew about the procedure.
As a member of Starfleet protecting the Federation, no, he was NOT within
his rights. Had Kurn first been able to consent, he would no more
remember the procedure than if he had no knowledge (or so we're led to
believe). I think that before you go into someone's brain and tinker
with the essence of who they are, whether or not they will have knowledge
of their own wishes afterwards, you need to get SOME kind of approval!
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AJ Muia
Roses are there
Violets are here
Spoilers below
about Dr. Bashir. . .
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> On 16 Feb 1996, Arthur Lipscomb wrote:
> > Please help me. I think I missed something. Did Kurn ask Worf to remove
> > his memories? If he didn't how could Bashir take part in wiping a
> > person's memories because he's depressed. That sound totally illegal and
> > morally objectionable to me.
This should have been explained in the episode, but I think they must
have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
anon
Es...@cris.com says...
>
>On 16 Feb 1996, Arthur Lipscomb wrote:
>> Please help me. I think I missed something. Did Kurn ask Worf to remove
>> his memories? If he didn't how could Bashir take part in wiping a
>> person's memories because he's depressed. That sound totally illegal and
>> morally objectionable to me.
>
You know, the more I think about it the more I find this solution
disturbing. Here are my reasons:
1> Roddenberry's Star Trek:Deep Space 9 has offered a story which supports the
philosophical argument that wiping the memory clean is preferable to suicide.
It seems to me that the House of Mogh has been at odds with the empire before,
with all of its lands and titles stripped and Kurn lived a false identity while
preparing for the House of Mogh's return to power. So wouldn't the honorable
Klingon plan would be revenge against Gowron and a return to power? Aren't
there a few Klingons who do not support Gowron who might rally to the banner of
Mogh? To bad nobody suggested this to Kurn. He acts like he believes he
deserves Gowron's punishment rather than supporting his elder borther's
honorable position and rallying troops for the cause. Remember that this is the
brother who is always raving about the Klingon ways and how he had grown up
surrounded by Klingon culture.
2> Correct me if I am wrong, but Bashir REFUSED to sustain Berial's body with
more electronic implants because 'only the body would go on, all that made
Berial who he was would be gone'. How does he justify wiping away 'all that
made Kurn who he was' and allowing only Kurn's body to go on? Regardless of
Klingon tradition, this is a BEJORAN outpost governed by BEJORAN laws, as
asserted by Odo and Sisko. Worf should have been charged with assault,
attempted murder, etc., while Kurn should have been committed to medical
observation and isolation for attempted suicide. Or are we to believe that
Bejorans condone this kind of behaviour while still prosecuting murder?
3> The overall taste of the episode was a 'quick-fix' to a long term problem:
depression. In our world we still apply electro-shocks to the brains of
depressed people. This blasts part of the memories right out of the brain, like
taking a pencil thin magnet and running it across a floppy disk. The arcs of
electricity that run through the brain act in the same way. That's why these
people 'recover' essentially they forget the cause of their depression and they
never get those memories back. Our technology does not give us much control
over the areas of the brain whichg are affected by the shocks. Couple to this
ignorance the fact that we don't have very much detail on our map of the brain,
so we aren't even sure which areas should be targetted. Now you know why this
therapy is not very popular, regardless of its claims for success. In "Sons of
Mogh" Bashir is obviously explaing to Worf that 24th century electro-shocks are
refined enough to selectively erase memories.
Now bear in mind: we are being told that in the 24th century they treat
depression (Kurn's) with selective memory erasure (ie electro-shock). Folks,
this is not an enlightened approach to depression or any other mental illness
or disability. If Troi were there she would have clawed Bashir's eyes out with
her Klingon-like anger. We all face setbacks. It tests the strength of our will
and our sense of destiny and many other noble aspects of our humanity. Remember
Gunga Din?
For the life of me I can't understand the purpose of this episode. I can only
imagine that the writers decided to shock the audience by showing the
difference between Klingons and Humans. They ended up showing us that Klingons
are cowards when it comes to facing life's setbacks. Worf was always talking
about family honor and how important it is to a Klingon. So where is Kurn?
Where is Worf's son?
"You are a better man than I ..."
Wulf
James Orr
>You know, the more I think about it the more I find this solution
>disturbing. Here are my reasons:
>1> Roddenberry's Star Trek:Deep Space 9 has offered a story which supports the
>philosophical argument that wiping the memory clean is preferable to suicide.
>It seems to me that the House of Mogh has been at odds with the empire before,
>with all of its lands and titles stripped and Kurn lived a false identity while
>preparing for the House of Mogh's return to power. So wouldn't the honorable
>Klingon plan would be revenge against Gowron and a return to power? Aren't
>there a few Klingons who do not support Gowron who might rally to the banner of
>Mogh? To bad nobody suggested this to Kurn. He acts like he believes he
>deserves Gowron's punishment rather than supporting his elder borther's
>honorable position and rallying troops for the cause. Remember that this is the
>brother who is always raving about the Klingon ways and how he had grown up
>surrounded by Klingon culture.
Evidently, Kurn is in the minority when it comes to opposing Gowron's policies.
He voted against the invasion of Cardassia, and was overruled. Additionally,
this is the _second_ time that the House of Mogh has been disgraced for betraying
the Empire. Other Klingons are probably wondering if they can really trust the
House of Mogh...
>2> Correct me if I am wrong, but Bashir REFUSED to sustain Berial's body with
>more electronic implants because 'only the body would go on, all that made
>Berial who he was would be gone'. How does he justify wiping away 'all that
>made Kurn who he was' and allowing only Kurn's body to go on? Regardless of
>Klingon tradition, this is a BEJORAN outpost governed by BEJORAN laws, as
>asserted by Odo and Sisko. Worf should have been charged with assault,
>attempted murder, etc., while Kurn should have been committed to medical
>observation and isolation for attempted suicide. Or are we to believe that
>Bejorans condone this kind of behaviour while still prosecuting murder?
"Bajoran," not "Bejoran."
Nobody mentioned bringing Will Riker up on charges had he helped Worf
commit suicide in "Ethics." DS9 is a Bajoran outpost, but evidently
they have similar laws as the Federation when it comes to Klingon
ritual suicides.
>3> The overall taste of the episode was a 'quick-fix' to a long term problem:
>depression. In our world we still apply electro-shocks to the brains of
>depressed people. This blasts part of the memories right out of the brain, like
>taking a pencil thin magnet and running it across a floppy disk. The arcs of
>electricity that run through the brain act in the same way. That's why these
>people 'recover' essentially they forget the cause of their depression and they
>never get those memories back. Our technology does not give us much control
>over the areas of the brain whichg are affected by the shocks. Couple to this
>ignorance the fact that we don't have very much detail on our map of the brain,
>so we aren't even sure which areas should be targetted. Now you know why this
>therapy is not very popular, regardless of its claims for success. In "Sons of
>Mogh" Bashir is obviously explaing to Worf that 24th century electro-shocks are
>refined enough to selectively erase memories.
20th century electro-shocks don't quite work like that. Believe me, I know.
But what Bashir did was not electro-shock therapy. He erased Kurn's memories,
like Crusher (or was it Pulaski?) did to the little alien girl in "Pen Pals."
He probably didn't even use electricity. We've seen (most recently in "Meld")
that in the 24th century, a great deal is known about how the brain works, and
what areas of the brain do what. Memory wipes on ST are nothing new. And they
are certainly _not_ shock therapy.
>Now bear in mind: we are being told that in the 24th century they treat
>depression (Kurn's) with selective memory erasure (ie electro-shock). Folks,
>this is not an enlightened approach to depression or any other mental illness
>or disability. If Troi were there she would have clawed Bashir's eyes out with
>her Klingon-like anger. We all face setbacks. It tests the strength of our will
>and our sense of destiny and many other noble aspects of our humanity. Remember
>Gunga Din?
Kurn was not _depressed_. He was _dishonored_. Klingons don't commit ritual
suicide when they are depressed. Kurn wanted to commit ritual suicide because
the Klingon culture had conditioned him to accept that it was the appropriate
course of action given Kurn's dishonor. Depression had very little, if
anything, to do with it. He was certainly _desparate_ to die, but he was not
_depressed_. Depression isn't something that hits you in act two of a five-act
TV series. It takes a lot longer than that.
>For the life of me I can't understand the purpose of this episode. I can only
>imagine that the writers decided to shock the audience by showing the
>difference between Klingons and Humans. They ended up showing us that Klingons
>are cowards when it comes to facing life's setbacks. Worf was always talking
>about family honor and how important it is to a Klingon. So where is Kurn?
>Where is Worf's son?
Worf explained to Kurn that he could not support Gowron, because it was _wrong_.
He held family honor in very high regard, but he could not help Gowron lead the
Empire to its ruin, either. While family honor is important to a Klingon, the
Empire is _more_ important.
James Orr
>On 16 Feb 1996, Arthur Lipscomb wrote:
>Did Kurn ask for the memory erasure? No. Was Worf within his rights to
>ask Bashir to perform the procedure? As a Klingon, yes -- he was. Kurn
>was more than resigned to his fate; his repeated statements to Worf that
>his life was in Worf's hands made it clear that Kurn was through figuring
>out ways to regain his honor. His failure to avoid the disruptor blast
>was more or less the final straw. Worf probably felt Kurn's honor could
>remain wholly intact if he neither consent to nor knew about the procedure.
>As a member of Starfleet protecting the Federation, no, he was NOT within
>his rights. Had Kurn first been able to consent, he would no more
>remember the procedure than if he had no knowledge (or so we're led to
>believe). I think that before you go into someone's brain and tinker
>with the essence of who they are, whether or not they will have knowledge
>of their own wishes afterwards, you need to get SOME kind of approval!
Um, Worf didn't just barge in, stun Kurn, and drag him to Bashir's
laboratory for the sinister mind-wipe. From what I saw, it looked
like Worf went to Kurn with Dax's idea, and (between scenes) Kurn
_agreed_. Where's the problem?
Curtis Kendall
off-stage or not. Even if he wasn't I fing the moral implications of doing
nothing to help him more objectional. We try to judge Klingons from a human
perspective and this wrongs them. Kern's best interests were undoubtedly met
by allowing him to be a Klingon warrior rather then an honorless outcast.
Gene K
Worf to make the decisions for him (infact, I thought they were
hitting us over the head with it), so from a Klingon point of view I
can see justification for Worf's actions. I'm not so comfortable
with Bashir's part in the scheme.
Gene
James Orr
>This should have been explained in the episode, but I think they must
>have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
>show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
>Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
>commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
>whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
>He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
>Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
There were a few scenes in between Kurn getting shot and Kurn ending up
in sickbay for the mind-wipe. The scene immediately before the final scene
in sickbay had Worf going to Kurn's quarters, presumably to talk to him
about Dax's idea.
I don't think Worf was ready to incur Sisko's wrath twice in one episode
(That guy is _scary_ when he gets mad...)
Kenneth W. Crist Jr.
: I don't think Worf was ready to incur Sisko's wrath twice in one episode
: (That guy is _scary_ when he gets mad...)
Why should Worf care? It isn't as if people ever suffer the
consequences for their actions in Star Trek.
Remember "Blood Oath"? Sisko told Dax that she would be out of
StarFleet if she went the the three Klingons. She goes. She comes back.
Sisko looks at her. She resumes her post. She still seems to be in StarFleet.
Remember when Worf resigned his commission in "Redemption"? At the
end of "Redemption Part II" he was taken back in, no problem. Excuse me?
Did Picard "forget" to send the resignation in?
Threats of repercussions in Star Trek all always pointless. They
never happen. I just wish the writers would just stop using them. It would
make for better shows.
Ken Crist
kayu...@cfar.umd.edu
Brad Wykes
> > > his memories? If he didn't how could Bashir take part in wiping a
> > > person's memories because he's depressed. That sound totally illegal and
> > > morally objectionable to me.
>
> have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
> show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
> Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
> commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
> whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
>
> He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
> Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
>
Unless I'm wrong, Kurn was drunk before he was moved to the sickbay. He
looked like he passed out after trying to kill himself and Worf intervened.
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I'm in a New York state of mind
-Billy Joel
Brad Wykes btw...@acs.ucalgary.ca
Aaron Browning
Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at Dax and
Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something about it not
being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their Klingon stuff in
the past.
Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially acceptable
practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or something)
would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their officers. The Prive
Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass judgement
on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture." Isn't Sisko
doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the suicide
ceremony???
anon
Understood, but then even more of a challenge for a Klingon warrior and
therefore even more honor. In fact, it's a perfect opportunity for Worf to
repeat his well-remembered folklore about Kahless and his brother. The point
I'm making is there is little attempt to bring out a Klingon's stubborn will to
succeed. Kern had no difficulty killing Klingon's during the civil war who were
doing their duty, why would he have difficulty now. The espionage aspect of
this episode went well and could have been developed, giving Kern a new
purpose: save the empire from Gowron's megalomaniacal ambitions. Too bad it
can't be pursued now.
>
>>2> Correct me if I am wrong, but Bashir REFUSED to sustain Berial's body with
>>more electronic implants because 'only the body would go on, all that made
>>Berial who he was would be gone'. How does he justify wiping away 'all that
>>made Kurn who he was' and allowing only Kurn's body to go on? Regardless of
>>Klingon tradition, this is a BEJORAN outpost governed by BEJORAN laws, as
>>asserted by Odo and Sisko. Worf should have been charged with assault,
>>attempted murder, etc., while Kurn should have been committed to medical
>>observation and isolation for attempted suicide. Or are we to believe that
>>Bejorans condone this kind of behaviour while still prosecuting murder?
>
>"Bajoran," not "Bejoran."
>
>Nobody mentioned bringing Will Riker up on charges had he helped Worf
>commit suicide in "Ethics." DS9 is a Bajoran outpost, but evidently
>they have similar laws as the Federation when it comes to Klingon
>ritual suicides.
I agree. Sisko's outburst and Odo's statement about charges were the only
official recognition given. The only reason Worf escaped with only a note in
his permanent record for killing Duras in TNG was because it had happened on a
Klingon ship under Klingon laws. No such excuse exists here. So will Worf spend
the next 5-10 for attempted murder on a Bajoran space station? I doubt it.
>
>>3> The overall taste of the episode was a 'quick-fix' to a long term problem:
>>depression. In our world we still apply electro-shocks to the brains of
>>depressed people. This blasts part of the memories right out of the brain,
like
>>taking a pencil thin magnet and running it across a floppy disk. The arcs of
>>electricity that run through the brain act in the same way. That's why these
>>people 'recover' essentially they forget the cause of their depression and
they
>>never get those memories back. Our technology does not give us much control
>>over the areas of the brain whichg are affected by the shocks. Couple to this
>>ignorance the fact that we don't have very much detail on our map of the
brain,
>>so we aren't even sure which areas should be targetted. Now you know why this
>>therapy is not very popular, regardless of its claims for success. In "Sons
of
>>Mogh" Bashir is obviously explaing to Worf that 24th century electro-shocks
are
>>refined enough to selectively erase memories.
>
>20th century electro-shocks don't quite work like that. Believe me, I know.
Believe me, I also know. Although the metaphor is crude as it was designed for
those fluent in computer technology the effect is the same. There is a chance
with each shock that memory will be erased, the more shocks the greater the
chance. Not to mention the epilieptic seizures that are invoked by said
treatment, etc.
>But what Bashir did was not electro-shock therapy. He erased Kurn's memories,
>like Crusher (or was it Pulaski?) did to the little alien girl in "Pen Pals."
>He probably didn't even use electricity. We've seen (most recently in "Meld")
>that in the 24th century, a great deal is known about how the brain works, and
>what areas of the brain do what. Memory wipes on ST are nothing new. And
they
>are certainly _not_ shock therapy.
>
We are not talking about enforcing the prime directive here. And we are not
talking about erasing only the most recent memories as Pulaski did to the
little girl in TNG. We are talking about the erasure of a fully grown
personality. This does correlate to some of the results of electro shock when
the 'therapy' was first being used. Now they know enough to use less juice
because of these earlier unfortunates.
>>Now bear in mind: we are being told that in the 24th century they treat
>>depression (Kurn's) with selective memory erasure (ie electro-shock). Folks,
>>this is not an enlightened approach to depression or any other mental illness
>>or disability. If Troi were there she would have clawed Bashir's eyes out
with
>>her Klingon-like anger. We all face setbacks. It tests the strength of our
will
>>and our sense of destiny and many other noble aspects of our humanity.
Remember
>>Gunga Din?
>
>Kurn was not _depressed_. He was _dishonored_. Klingons don't commit ritual
>suicide when they are depressed. Kurn wanted to commit ritual suicide because
>the Klingon culture had conditioned him to accept that it was the appropriate
>course of action given Kurn's dishonor. Depression had very little, if
>anything, to do with it. He was certainly _desparate_ to die, but he was not
>_depressed_. Depression isn't something that hits you in act two of a
five-act
>TV series. It takes a lot longer than that.
Here is where I step out of the TV and back onto 20th century Earth. This TV
program is designed for humans. Klingons won't be seeing this stuff for another
200 years or so. I appreciate the respondent's attempts to fill in the blanks
with lots of charitable interpretations of Klingon behaviour, but the fact is
none of this is canon. The ST footage (all series/movies) do not support this
interpretation for Kern's behaviour.
From a human point of view Kern exhibited all of the symptoms of depression
nearing a suicidal state (drinking, death wish, discussing suicide, etc.).
There's no reason to think Kern just started thinking like this when he
arrived. Worf makes mention he hasn't talked to his brother for quite some
time and I presume this is also part of the depression (ie isolation), Of
course Kern isn't human, but the audience is and can't help but think of it in
those terms.
>
>>For the life of me I can't understand the purpose of this episode. I can only
>>imagine that the writers decided to shock the audience by showing the
>>difference between Klingons and Humans. They ended up showing us that
Klingons
>>are cowards when it comes to facing life's setbacks. Worf was always talking
>>about family honor and how important it is to a Klingon. So where is Kurn?
>>Where is Worf's son?
>
>Worf explained to Kurn that he could not support Gowron, because it was
_wrong_.
>He held family honor in very high regard, but he could not help Gowron lead
the
>Empire to its ruin, either. While family honor is important to a Klingon, the
>Empire is _more_ important.
>
>
I agree, so use your family's honorable position to rally support against the
biggest threat to the empire: Gowron.
I stand by my critique. The course of action I suggested in the first point is
the only way a true Klingon warrior could approach this problem. Unfortunately
our Klingon Kern was being scripted by human writers who do not appear to
recognize this quality of Klingon psychology. They needed an episode to address
the problems of depression and since TNG wasn't using Kern anymore they dragged
him in as the victim. Unfortunately for me they selected one of the few
characters who should be immune to depression and then treated the depression
with personality erasure.
I want Bashir in front of a board of inquiry to justify the medical ethics he
used to perform this 'treatment'. I want Worf up on charges and convicted. But
most of all, I want to the writers to go back and watch every foot of ST video
that shows a Klingon or talks about a Klingon so that they can see why I'm
ticked.
Wulf
Timothy J. Lee
fr...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Philip Richard Yabut) writes:
|Juan Espada <Juan....@54.sunshine.com> wrote:
|>Goodbye, Tony Todd... I LOVE YOU, MAN!
|
|I wouldn't write him off yet. Noggra is a friend of the House of Mogh, so
|we might see him (and his new son, Rodek) again sometime. Also in "The
|Sword of Kahless," we find out Worf still has a few friends in the Empire
|who oppose Gowron, leaving the door open for a "second 'Redemption.'"
|
|Also, I thought it was interesting that the Kurn-Worf story arc from TNG
|has come fill circle. When we first meet Kurn in "Sins of the Father,"
|he did not know that he was indeed a son of Mogh. Now, he again is
|unaware of his true bloodline.
The other question is, how well will the "Rodek" story hold up?
There will be no birth, school, military service, etc. records of
a "Rodek" before the day he wakes up on Deep Space 9. It would be
like the Klingon Empire suffered a case of amnesia with respect to
"Rodek", just as "Rodek" supposedly suffered a case of amnesia.
Even if such records could be planted, associates and family members
of Nogra might be surprised about the existence of "Rodek", whom
they never knew existed before.
As Kurn is likely to be mentioned in any description of recent
Klingon history and politics, "Rodek" might notice that Kurn
went into exile on Deep Space 9 and disappeared there at the
same time that "Rodek" woke up with his amnesia.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee tim...@netcom.com
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Kenneth W. Crist Jr.
: Um, Worf didn't just barge in, stun Kurn, and drag him to Bashir's
: laboratory for the sinister mind-wipe. From what I saw, it looked
: like Worf went to Kurn with Dax's idea, and (between scenes) Kurn
: _agreed_. Where's the problem?
What I saw was: Worf walked in on a drunk Kurn, waited until he
passed out and then took him to Sick Bay to have a mind wipe. Between
scenes Kurn didn't agree, he was in no shape to make any kind of decision,
even one to let Worf decide his future.
Where's the rightness of Worf's or Bahsir's actions?
Ken Crist
kayu...@cfar.umd.edu
David Veal
AJ Muia <ajm...@paul.spu.edu> wrote:
[Spoilers...]
[...]
>This should have been explained in the episode, but I think they must
>have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
>show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
>Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
>commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
>whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
>
>He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
>Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
Kurn drunk himself into unconsciousness. There's every indication
that Worf had already made his decision before he came to talk to Kurn
the last time.
Frankly I'd have a hard time believing Kurn agreeing to such a
thing...
--
David Veal lve...@utk.edu / ve...@web.ce.utk.edu
"Any smoothly functioning technology will be
indistinguishable from a rigged demo." - Isaac Asimov
Kenneth W. Crist Jr.
: spoilers ahead
: The other question is, how well will the "Rodek" story hold up?
: There will be no birth, school, military service, etc. records of
: a "Rodek" before the day he wakes up on Deep Space 9. It would be
: like the Klingon Empire suffered a case of amnesia with respect to
: "Rodek", just as "Rodek" supposedly suffered a case of amnesia.
: Even if such records could be planted, associates and family members
: of Nogra might be surprised about the existence of "Rodek", whom
: they never knew existed before.
: As Kurn is likely to be mentioned in any description of recent
: Klingon history and politics, "Rodek" might notice that Kurn
: went into exile on Deep Space 9 and disappeared there at the
: same time that "Rodek" woke up with his amnesia.
The Rodek "story" will hold up about as well as the "story"
of a transport "accident" in Birthright Part Two to explain where
all those unknown Klingons came from, including a half-Klingon,
half-Romulan girl about 17 years old. In a society that is so structured
on family, I *sure* no one will check out those youngsters when they
appear and claim to be from a lost ship no one has any records of.
And none of them will be given physicals.
So you see, the new Kurn is quite safe. Why would any one
question his lineage?
Ken Crist
kayu...@cfar.umd.edu
rwi...@mail.utexas.edu
The Prive
> Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass judgement
> on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture." Isn't Sisko
> doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the suicide
> ceremony???
Exactly. Why would any alien join star-fleet, when star-fleet refuses
to respect their custums and traditions. And this is the first time
this has happen; remember how pissed and disappointed Picard was with
Worf when he killed Durass, even tho' Klingon culture dictated that Worf
had a right to avenge Kalar's death. And yet this same captain was
ready to let one of his crew-members die because he stepped on a flower
(granted it was wussley), because of the prime directive...
Worf should have been allowed to kill Kurn, and it was none of Odo's,
Sisko's or Star-fleets business; this was a personal matter, involving
the traditions and the beliefs of the Klingons. IMO, Worf should have
yelled right back at Sisko instead of acting like a naughty 7 year old.
And why the hell was Kira riding around in the Defiant anyways....
Rob
Don Dexter
> AJ Muia <ajm...@paul.spu.edu> wrote:
>
> >This should have been explained in the episode, but I think they must
> >have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
> >show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
> >Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
> >commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
> >whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
>
> >He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
> >Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
>
> in sickbay for the mind-wipe. The scene immediately before the final scene
> in sickbay had Worf going to Kurn's quarters, presumably to talk to him
> about Dax's idea.
>
> (That guy is _scary_ when he gets mad...)
>
visit to sickbay. He passed out and woke up as somebody new.
Steve Weiss
: He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
: Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
Knowing the Star Trek mentality, if they would have talked it over, it
would have been shown, along with a big goodbye.
--
____________
__ ___/_ /________ ______ Steve Weiss
_____ \_ __/ _ \_ | / / _ \ st...@cory.berkeley.edu
____/ // /_ / __/_ |/ // __/ http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~steve/
/____/ \__/ \___/_____/ \___/ (510)848-6713
anon
>
>Hmmm... here's a question:
>
>Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at
Dax and
>Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something about
it not
>being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their
Klingon stuff in
>the past.
>
>Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially
acceptable
>practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or
something)
>would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their officers.
>Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass
judgement
>on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture."
Isn't Sisko
>doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the
suicide
>ceremony???
This much did make sense to me. Remember they are Federation officers on loan
to the Bejoran government to manage a Bejoran space station. In a sense they
are guests and employees at the same time, a quasi-diplomatic status.
Consequently Sisko must answer for the actions of the Federation personnel
under his command, including Worf. If Sisko had heard that Worf killed his
brother while on a Klingon world he would probably react by raising his eyebrow
and offering fatherly counseling to Worf.
I imagine Sisko feeling like the father of two small children who are fighting
for the same toy ("I don't care how it started it, just settle it peacefully
or heads are gonna roll!!!").
Wulf
drsoran
: Hmmm... here's a question:
: Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at Dax and
: Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something about it not
: being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their Klingon stuff in
: the past.
: Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially acceptable
: practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or something)
: would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their officers. The Prive
: Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass judgement
: on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture." Isn't Sisko
: doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the suicide
: ceremony???
That is just one thing that bothered me about this episode.. its
NOT alright for Kurn to be put to death by his brother but its perfectly
acceptable to wipe his memory, erase his current life, and put him in
another family as if nothing ever happened?? That seems even WORSE..
Sisko had no right to interfere in a Klingon family ritual.. under
Klingon law it was perfectly acceptable, in fact preferable, that the
brother kill the other brother in that situation.. just because human
culture would find that odd in no way invalidates their ritual.. I don't
see what the big deal is.. Odo spouts off about murder.. well so what?
Kurn's life is over to him, he wanted to die.. suicide would have been
dishonorable, being killed by his brother in the ritual would have
restored his honor and allowed him to pass into Klingon "heaven". If
anything Odo and Sisko should be brought up on charges.
BTW: This severe lack of any cultural tolerance was also seen in
ST:III The Search for Spock.. Ambassador Sarek asks Kirk to bring Spock's
body to vulcan. Sarek is one of the most respected ambassadors in the
entire federation, his son was a respectable captain with an honorable
existence yet something as simple as letting Kirk take his body from
Genesis to Vulcan was denied. WHY? The one last request of Spock's
father is denied because the Commander of Starfleet never understood that
"vulcan mysticism" stuff? What the hell kind of a reason is that? If
you have a respected member of the Federation asking that he at least
have the dignity of being brought back to Vulcan, what kind of idiot
would deny that? He SHOULD have sent Excelsior to go pick up the body if
he had ANY compassion or honor.
--
---------------------------------------------------------
drs...@ni.cba.csuohio.edu
web page - http://ni.cba.csuohio.edu/~drsoran
Wizard of Oz
> Hmmm... here's a question:
> Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at Dax and
> Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something about it not
> being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their Klingon stuff in
> the past.
> Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially acceptable
> practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or something)
> would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their officers. The Prive
> Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass judgement
> on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture." Isn't Sisko
> doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the suicide
> ceremony???
The Prime Directive applies to cultures in their native habitat, not
within Star Fleet. When cultural norms clash with Star Fleet rules, more
often than not it is Star Fleet rules that prevail. This would
particularly be the case when the rule relates to murder.
--
==========================================================================
Satya Jordan Gabriel \|/ "Pay no attention to that man
Dept. of Economics ---0--- behind the screen."
Mount Holyoke College /|\ ||||| _\|/_ /
South Hadley, MA 01075 {@ @} (o o) /
===============================ooO=(_)==Ooo====ooO==(_)==Ooo========
Christina L. Melville
<abro...@selway.umt.edu> writes:
>
>Hmmm... here's a question:
>
>Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY
angry at Dax and
>Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out
something about it not
>being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with
their Klingon stuff in
>the past.
>
>Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and
socially acceptable
>practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory
or something)
>would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their
officers. The Prive
>Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going
to pass judgement
>on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their
culture." Isn't Sisko
>doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating
in the suicide
>ceremony???
Picard about the Bajoran earing as not being part of
her uniform(and Worf's sash was?).
Gene K
Sisko can't have people going around killing each other all over the
station just because it's OK on their home worlds. Worf killed Duras
in a Klingon-accepted vengeance rite, but that was on a Klingon ship.
Presumably if Worf had killed Kurn on a Klingon planet there
wouldn't be so many Starfleet complications.
Gene
John Paulus
: In article <3128F3...@selway.umt.edu>, abro...@selway.umt.edu says...
: >
: >Hmmm... here's a question:
: >
: >Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at
: Dax and
: >Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something about
: it not
: >being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their
: Klingon stuff in
: >the past.
: >
: >Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially
: acceptable
: >practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or
: something)
: >would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their officers.
: This much did make sense to me. Remember they are Federation officers on loan
: to the Bejoran government to manage a Bejoran space station. In a sense they
: are guests and employees at the same time, a quasi-diplomatic status.
: Consequently Sisko must answer for the actions of the Federation personnel
: under his command, including Worf. If Sisko had heard that Worf killed his
: brother while on a Klingon world he would probably react by raising his eyebrow
: and offering fatherly counseling to Worf.
: I imagine Sisko feeling like the father of two small children who are fighting
: for the same toy ("I don't care how it started it, just settle it peacefully
: or heads are gonna roll!!!").
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Or, more appropriately, heads are NOT going to roll!
: Wulf
--
j.p. paulus 4625 N. Kenmore Avenue #2
sha...@ripco.com Chicago IL 60640-5024
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~shadowm/index.html 312/784-5640
********************** GO GOD!!!!! ************************
SMF User
> Perhaps you have forgoten the "grief" Ensign Ro got from
> Picard about the Bajoran earing as not being part of
> her uniform(and Worf's sash was?).
Actually, I think it was Riker who gave Ro the tongue lashing, but I
think it was more because he felt that she didn't belong on the
Enterprise (being a star-fleet criminal) then for any lack of respect.
BTW, why does Worf wear the sash? I hate to admit, being such a
Worf-phile, but I never understood why he wore it (besides looking
cool in it). And it's not like other Klingons wear something
similiar...
Rob
Jeff Barrus
I think that Sisko's intolerence towards the ritual was largely based on
his own feelings and not Star Fleet's. Remember, Sisko tends to play fairly
loose with the rules aboard his station -- it comes from having to improvise
certain things that don't work so far away from "official" Federation space.
He's in charge there, and if he thinks that assisted suicide, cultural or no,
is bad, then he'll act on his own discretion -- not Star Fleet's. The
rules are probably very thin in that regard -- you can probably either
take the suicide/murder as cultural and let it go, or say that it's murder
and dso something about it. Things like that work in our society all the
time -- I'm sure Star Fleet codes are no exception.
-Jeff
Joesph Smith
<abro...@selway.umt.edu> writes
>Hmmm... here's a question:
>
>Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at Dax
>and
>Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something about
>it not
>being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their
>Klingon stuff in
>the past.
>
>Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially
>acceptable
>practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or
>something)
>Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass
>judgement
>on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture."
>Isn't Sisko
>doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the
>suicide
>ceremony???
I haven`t seen the episode yet but have read a lot about it. Reading
your contribution I had to remember the episode "Captive Pursuit", the
episode in which Tosk, the first visitor from the Gamma Quadrant,
arrived on the station, being hunted for sport by another race. Shortly
afterwards the hunt continued on the station and O`Brien allowed the
Tosk to escape. Sisko made it very clear to the hunter, that he cannot
interfere with or judge what is happening on his world, but here on this
station in Federation/Bajoran space, this hunt will not be tolerated.
The hunter agreed that in future the wormhole will be off limits to the
Tosk.
I think that is the reason why Sisko became angry, and rightly so. As
someone already pointed out, when Worf killed Duras it happened on a
Klingon ship unter Klingon jurisdiction. But what happened on the
station happened on a Federation station in Bajoran space. If Worf had
travelled with Kurn to a Klingon world or had been on a Klingon ship and
a Klingon would have done this erasure of personality, I would still be
appalled (I don`t think I will like this episode but I will try to watch
it open minded) but it would mean that this act didn`t happen under
Sisko`s nose. Another point is that Worf is a Starfleet Officer. He is
supposed to uphold Starfleet law BEFORE being a Klingon.
I think it was very selfish of Kurn to put Worf into this position. It
may be a stupid question - but why didn`t Kurn simply kill himself?
--
Baerbel
Perrin
>For all intents and purposes, Starfleet's humans, Dr. Bashir
>and Cap. Sisko) who were so appalled by Worf's attempted
>murder of his brother, have "murdered" Kurn.
Here's a possible solution: what if this mindwipe was done
without Sisko's knowledge? (Was it mentioned that Sisko or Odo knew
about it?) We know that Dax was on Worf's side and thought the ritual
should have been complete; perhaps Bashir was persuaded to do the
operation sub rosa. If this were the case, then it was Worf, with the
assistance of Bashir and Dax, completing the ritual and allowing Kurn
to "die". Why do a mindwipe? It's certainly riskier, but perhaps it
allows for a clearer conscience. It's not "quite" killing, so maybe
they can sneak under the letter of Starfleet regs. And if someone
asks, "Where did Kurn go?" they can always say, "Oh, he left on the
last shuttle with a friend of Worf's. We won't be hearing from him
for a while."
Supported? Not in the least. But's it might be a possible
theory, and it would be a great thing to build on. Insubordination of
the ranks, with the senior officers going against orders they believe
are morally wrong. Not necessarily a smart thing to do, but it would
be a GREAT storyline. We could end up with a bigger confrontation
between Sisko and Worf at some point, and Ben may find himself
outnumbered. (A coup? On STAR TREK!!?!? Naah, couldn't happen.)
I think it's great that this episode has fostered so much
conversation. I just want to toss in the possibility that the
mindwipe might not have been done with Starfleet's blessing. (And
that may come back to haunt the crew as well.)
/
:@-) Scott
\
Roland Lee
: Christina L. Melville wrote:
: Rob
Think back to the first season of TNG. Worf wore a 'light' sash
(i.e. it wasn't made of metal) which was basically a prop left over
from TOS, where all the Klingons wore such accoutrements to their
clothing. TPTB probably felt that Worf n
--
Roland S. Lee
rl...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
"What does not destroy me makes me stranger." - Me
"I got soul...and I'm super bad!" - James Brown
"Eat my justice!" - The Tick
"I see you in a hell, Buckaroo Banzai!" - Dr. Lazardo
"All warriors are cold warriors..." - General Chang
Fill in your name here
: Aaron Browning wrote:
: The Prive
: > Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass judgement
: > on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture." Isn't Sisko
: > doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the suicide
: > ceremony???
: Exactly. Why would any alien join star-fleet, when star-fleet refuses
: to respect their custums and traditions. And this is the first time
: this has happen; remember how pissed and disappointed Picard was with
: Worf when he killed Durass, even tho' Klingon culture dictated that Worf
: had a right to avenge Kalar's death. And yet this same captain was
: ready to let one of his crew-members die because he stepped on a flower
: (granted it was wussley), because of the prime directive...
: Worf should have been allowed to kill Kurn, and it was none of Odo's,
: Sisko's or Star-fleets business; this was a personal matter, involving
: the traditions and the beliefs of the Klingons. IMO, Worf should have
: yelled right back at Sisko instead of acting like a naughty 7 year old.
: And why the hell was Kira riding around in the Defiant anyways....
: Rob
-------------------------------------------------
It would have been a personal matter IF it occurred on a type of
neutral ground. However, DS9 is a Bajoran station with Starfleet
administration. It would be safe to say that there are rules onboard DS9
against assault and murder. Sisko was right, this was not a matter of
'respecting culture', this was a matter of Worf and Kurn respecting the
laws that run DS9.
Imagine it this way, in some cultures on Earth, ritual suicide is
a practice that is actually seen as honorable (however rare it may be in
present day society). If someone came from a culture where suicide was a
valid practice to the US and killed themselves (no diplomats, just a
regular joe citizen), they are still committing an act that is
technically illegal in the US. I'm no legal expert, but I know that in
the eyes of the law, a suicide by ANYONE would not be viewed positively.
On DS9, the visitors are expected to adhere to the rules
established by the Bajorans and Federation. Worf and Kurn did neither
and desrved to be chastised. If they had, perhaps, gone to a remote
asteroid where there was no jurisdiction by any government and they
practiced the ceremony, I doubt Sisko would have had the same reaction.
He might not have liked the action in itself, but since it took place in
an area that was out of his jurisdiction, he could not have said anything
about the legality of the action. Just my .02 cents.
Curtis Kendall
These are still human values were judging their actions with. Kern made it
clear several times that as the older brother Worf had the right to decide
what he should do. The custums of other cultures don't need or deserve to be
fooled around with, or judged.
>
Hanson
>I think that is the reason why Sisko became angry, and rightly so. As
>someone already pointed out, when Worf killed Duras it happened on a
>Klingon ship unter Klingon jurisdiction. But what happened on the
>station happened on a Federation station in Bajoran space. If Worf had
>travelled with Kurn to a Klingon world or had been on a Klingon ship and
>a Klingon would have done this erasure of personality, I would still be
>appalled (I don`t think I will like this episode but I will try to watch
>it open minded) but it would mean that this act didn`t happen under
>Sisko`s nose. Another point is that Worf is a Starfleet Officer. He is
>supposed to uphold Starfleet law BEFORE being a Klingon.
>Baerbel
If I am reading this correctly, I think you've hit upon an important
point -- each planet and jurisdiction has basic laws that are to be
upheld. The Federation would never go to another planet and then do
something that is illegal and not expect to face the consequences
(e.g. Wesley's little romp through the daisies). The same applies to
Federation or Bajoran space -- no one can come and violate the law
against murder even if it is within their sensibilities. As they say,
when you are in Rome...
Hanson
rwi...@mail.utexas.edu
> It would have been a personal matter IF it occurred on a type of
> neutral ground. However, DS9 is a Bajoran station with Starfleet
> administration. It would be safe to say that there are rules onboard DS9
> against assault and murder. Sisko was right, this was not a matter of
> 'respecting culture', this was a matter of Worf and Kurn respecting the
> laws that run DS9.
No, Sisko was a jack-ass!!! This was not an act of murder or assault,
but rather a complete voluntary participation of both Worf and Kurn in
an ancient klingon tradition. I guess Quark and the rest of the
non-humans do have a point about star-fleet being so pro-human....
> Imagine it this way, in some cultures on Earth, ritual suicide is
> a practice that is actually seen as honorable (however rare it may be in
> present day society). If someone came from a culture where suicide was a
> valid practice to the US and killed themselves (no diplomats, just a
> regular joe citizen), they are still committing an act that is
> technically illegal in the US. I'm no legal expert, but I know that in
> the eyes of the law, a suicide by ANYONE would not be viewed positively.
But DS9 isn't the US; Star-fleet is suppuse to be sooo much more evolved
then present day society. They make the claim that they respect the
traditions of other societies, but it seems to be total BS as seen by
this episode. I think there was some truth to the misgivings of the
Klingons in the TUC.....
Rob
Marshall Poindexter
> Brad Wykes <btw...@acs.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
>
> >> > On 16 Feb 1996, Arthur Lipscomb wrote:
> >> > > Please help me. I think I missed something. Did Kurn ask Worf
to remove
> >> > > his memories? If he didn't how could Bashir take part in wiping a
> >> > > person's memories because he's depressed. That sound totally
illegal and
> >> > > morally objectionable to me.
> >>
> >> This should have been explained in the episode, but I think they must
> >> have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
> >> show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
> >> Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
> >> commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
> >> whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
> >>
> >> He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
> >> Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
It could be that they talked about it together OR perhaps they *didn't.* I
seem to remember that Kurn said that "my life and death is in your hands."
As Kurn's older brother, Worf was fully responsible for him. Within the
Klingon culture, perhaps that means that he'd do *whatever* was necessary
to restore Kurn's honor -- with or without Kurn's knowledge.
Just a thought.
--
Marshall Poindexter
mpoin...@classtrain.com
Neal
>> > On 16 Feb 1996, Arthur Lipscomb wrote:
>> > > Please help me. I think I missed something. Did Kurn ask Worf to remove
>> > > his memories? If he didn't how could Bashir take part in wiping a
>> > > person's memories because he's depressed. That sound totally illegal and
>> > > morally objectionable to me.
>>
>> This should have been explained in the episode, but I think they must
>> have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
>> show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
>> Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
>> commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
>> whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
>>
>> He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
>> Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
>>
>
>Unless I'm wrong, Kurn was drunk before he was moved to the sickbay. He
>looked like he passed out after trying to kill himself and Worf intervened.
>
>
>
>
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> $$$$$'`$$$$$$$$$$$$$'`$$$
> $$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$
> $$$$$$$ '$/`/`$'$ $$$$$
> $$$$$$$$. i i / .$$$$$
> $$$$$$$$$.--'--' $$$$$$
> $$^^$$$$' $$$$$$$
> $$$ ~"" `. $$$$$$$
> $$$$$e, ; . $$$$$$$$
> $$$$$$$$$$.' $$$$$$$$$
> $$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>
>
> I'm in a New York state of mind
> -Billy Joel
>
>
> Brad Wykes btw...@acs.ucalgary.ca
>
Hey Brad! Nice ASCII art, does that mean you are deaf? If so, me too!
Neal
rwi...@mail.utexas.edu
> I think that is the reason why Sisko became angry, and rightly so. As
> someone already pointed out, when Worf killed Duras it happened on a
> Klingon ship unter Klingon jurisdiction. But what happened on the
> station happened on a Federation station in Bajoran space.
But Worf was reprimanded by Picard (ir., put on his record) for killing
Duras on a klingon ship.
Rob
John Paulus
: In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.960218...@paul.spu.edu>,
: AJ Muia <ajm...@paul.spu.edu> wrote:
: [Spoilers...]
: [...]
: >This should have been explained in the episode, but I think they must
: >have had Kurn's permission, even if they didn't show it. They never did
: >show how Kurn got to sickbay, did they? He was injured on duty as one of
: >Odo's deputies, but then he was repaired by Dr. Bashir. Then after the
: >commercial, he was lying in sickbay again, and they were talking over
: >whether Worf was sure he wanted to do it.
: >
: >He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
: >Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
: Kurn drunk himself into unconsciousness. There's every indication
: that Worf had already made his decision before he came to talk to Kurn
: the last time.
: Frankly I'd have a hard time believing Kurn agreeing to such a
: thing...
No, i very much doubt he would have agreed. But as Kurn said, Worf was the
older brother, and Kurn had to obey. Of course, if he could get around the
rules (like when he performed his duties as a security officer very
well--until he had the opportunity to get shot), Kurn would.
i think Worf's acts might be accpetable by Klingon Standards.....i'm sure
they'll do a sequel on this in the future, and we'll see the Klingon
implications of Worf's decision.
--jp--
: --
: David Veal lve...@utk.edu / ve...@web.ce.utk.edu
: "Any smoothly functioning technology will be
: indistinguishable from a rigged demo." - Isaac Asimov
--
Eugčne Lamy
>Hmmm... here's a question:
>Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at Dax and
>Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something about it not
>being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their Klingon stuff in
>the past.
>Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially acceptable
>practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or something)
>would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their officers. The Prive
>Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to pass judgement
>on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their culture." Isn't Sisko
>doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the suicide
>ceremony???
I just think that in this case Worf is bound by Federation law and
that the prime directive does not apply because Worf chose a Starfleet
way of life. Didn't Picard clear up that point in the episode "The
Emissary" when Worf killed Durass ?
As he said he (and probably the Federation) respects customs and
beliefs of every crew member but if they interfere with the fulfilment
of their duties(and probably Federation laws) they should resign.
Kenneth W. Crist Jr.
: > What I saw was: Worf walked in on a drunk Kurn, waited until he
: >passed out and then took him to Sick Bay to have a mind wipe. Between
: >scenes Kurn didn't agree, he was in no shape to make any kind of decision,
: >even one to let Worf decide his future.
: > Where's the rightness of Worf's or Bahsir's actions?
: >
: > Ken Crist
: > kayu...@cfar.umd.edu
: These are still human values were judging their actions with.
Which is, of course, the whole point of Star Trek. To tell stories
using fictional characters but aimed at human viewers. We have no other
viewpoint but a human one to evaluate the stories with.
: Kern made it clear several times that as the older brother Worf had the
: right to decide what he should do.
Maybe, but how does that explain Bashir's actions? Is Bashir a
Klingon?
: The custums of other cultures don't need or deserve to be fooled around
: with, or judged.
This is, of course, a very pat Prime Directive restatement. It has
no basis in real life, or even Star Trek. Customs of other cultures can
and will be judged. The writers do it, the characters do it. I won't
offer a long list of examples, all I will say is see any episode in which
the Ferengi appear. If that culture isn't judged each and every time it
appears, then you are right, no culture is judged.
Ken Crist
kayu...@cfar.umd.edu
Derek Stevenson
>
> It could be that they talked about it together OR perhaps they *didn't.* I
> seem to remember that Kurn said that "my life and death is in your hands."
> As Kurn's older brother, Worf was fully responsible for him. Within the
> Klingon culture, perhaps that means that he'd do *whatever* was necessary
> to restore Kurn's honor -- with or without Kurn's knowledge.
>
> Just a thought.
What about Bashir, though? Assuming that Kurn didn't explicitly agree to the procedure -- and I'm
forced to assume that, since it was never shown or even referred to -- Bashir went ahead and
performed a radical procedure (one that certainly falls well ahead the Hippocratic injunction to
"do no harm") without his patient's knowledge or consent. Sounds more than a little unethical to
me -- or at the very least, a situation where the ethical question would at least come up.
Does this means that Starfleet's respect for the norms of other cultures can be taken so far that
Starfleet personnel can be FORCED to act in a way that they consider unethical or immoral, as
long as their actions aren't regarded that way by the people affected?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Stevenson "I'm not making this up, you know!"
dste...@cmhc-schl.gc.ca
======================================================================
Derek Stevenson
>
> Timothy J. Lee (tim...@netcom.com) wrote:
>
> : The other question is, how well will the "Rodek" story hold up?
>
> : There will be no birth, school, military service, etc. records of
> : a "Rodek" before the day he wakes up on Deep Space 9. It would be
> : like the Klingon Empire suffered a case of amnesia with respect to
> : "Rodek", just as "Rodek" supposedly suffered a case of amnesia.
> : Even if such records could be planted, associates and family members
> : of Nogra might be surprised about the existence of "Rodek", whom
> : they never knew existed before.
>
> : As Kurn is likely to be mentioned in any description of recent
> : Klingon history and politics, "Rodek" might notice that Kurn
> : went into exile on Deep Space 9 and disappeared there at the
> : same time that "Rodek" woke up with his amnesia.
>
> The Rodek "story" will hold up about as well as the "story"
> of a transport "accident" in Birthright Part Two to explain where
> all those unknown Klingons came from, including a half-Klingon,
> half-Romulan girl about 17 years old. In a society that is so structured
> on family, I *sure* no one will check out those youngsters when they
> appear and claim to be from a lost ship no one has any records of.
> And none of them will be given physicals.
> So you see, the new Kurn is quite safe. Why would any one
> question his lineage?
Klingon society doesn't seem to have a problem with people who turn up out of nowhere with no
proof of their identity, or who choose to assume a completely new identity. Consider:
- after the attack on Khitomer, Kurn was assimilated into another family so completely that for
years he was unaware of his true heritage (Kurn apparently wasn't the only one kept in the dark
-- if the Duras family had known that a son of Mogh had survived Khitomer, they probably would
have tried to do away with him.)
- Toral grew to adolescence with only a few people aware of the fact that he was Duras's son.
- The adult Alexander was able to grow to adulthood, travel back through time, and assume a new
identity as a retainer of the House of Mogh without much difficulty.
Perhaps, given the importance of honour in Klingon life, it's just automatically assumed that
someone is who he claims to be, and all the proofs of identity that we use as a matter of course
simply considered necessary.
Or, given the importance of family, maybe someone who turns up out of nowhere with no family ties
is again taken at his word simply because it's such an inferior position that no one would assume
it unless it was true.
Allen Blue
> David Veal (ve...@web.ce.utk.edu) wrote:
> : AJ Muia <ajm...@paul.spu.edu> wrote:
>
> : >He had to get there somehow. I assumed he and Worf talked it over.
> : >Unless Worf knocked him out or something . . .
>
> : Kurn drunk himself into unconsciousness. There's every indication
> : that Worf had already made his decision before he came to talk to Kurn
> : the last time.
>
> : Frankly I'd have a hard time believing Kurn agreeing to such a
> : thing...
> No, i very much doubt he would have agreed. But as Kurn said, Worf was the
> older brother, and Kurn had to obey. Of course, if he could get around the
> rules (like when he performed his duties as a security officer very
> well--until he had the opportunity to get shot), Kurn would.
There's no way to talk away the implications of such a scene.
This decision was so incongruous with the fabric of DS9 and its fiction,
I could hardly believe it was happening.
DS9 is the Star Trek with messy solutions. There are no 'easy'
answeres to the political strife on Bajor, or the fragmentation and
surrender of the Cardassian Empire, or to the perceived threat offered
by the Dominion. Nonetheless, the characters manage to paint a picture
of that 'perfect' Star Trek universe by choosing the hard way towards
the 'high,' if difficult road.
Unlike TNG, which had for the most part 'clean' solutions to its
problems, DS9 has its roots in pursuit of the good in the midst of
decay. 'Emissary,' DS9's first episode, began with the _mess_ left
by the Borg's attack on Earth and Picard's forced treason. Throughout,
tough, messy decisions have been made, and DS9's drama -- and its ethical
foundations -- have found their energy there.
The mind-wipe decision at the end of 'Sons of Mogh' was an
example of the opposite. The writers must have felt that this 'lateral'
idea, something which would break out of the dilemma presented by Kurn's
desire for honor in death and Worf's (and everyone else's) belief that he
should live, was such a clever idea that they could avoid the
implications for Bashir, Dax and Worf.
They can't. Would Bashir, under ANY circumstances, have allowed
one person to destroy forever a person? Would Dax, with seven lifetimes
of wisdom and two of Federation initiation, have suggested that
eliminating the person who Kurn was, could be construed as 'Killing Kurn,
but not killing him?' Would Worf, torn as he was between his traditions
and the realities of his life, himself an example of the honor and power
of the individual in the face of overbearing societal force, and a
student of mystical and religious philosophy; would he possibly have
taken from his own brother BOTH the choice and experience of his own
death (and thereby the Klingon honor they both ascribed to it) AND the
pursuit of a new, if difficult life outside the empire -- the kind of
life that Worf has painstakingly forged for himself?
The high road -- slowly and with difficulty bringing Kurn into
Federation society, or allowing him to fight his way back into the
empire, or _whatever_, and all of the messy, complex implications there
-- would have been worthy of DS9. This 'clever' solution, something
grown out of what is no doubt a high pressure to 'get the damn thing
under 53 minutes,' had nothing to do with the traditions of DS9, or of ST
in general. The ending of the episode seemed like an ugly capitulation,
to the perceived need for cleanliness, the greatly-to-be-feared
fickleness of the viewing public, and the tyranny of the
script-by-committee model.
> i think Worf's acts might be accpetable by Klingon Standards.....
Two things. Do you really think so? Killing someone
(essentially) in their sleep, despite their desire for death, seems like
an honorless way to go. Avoiding the whole question of 'is this person
honorable' by amputating their history and identity: does this make the
'new person' honorable? Does this make the old person deserving of
honor? Doesn't such avoidance belie the whole idea of personal honor?
Second: The episode is about Worf and his realization that the
Federation is his essential home. Can Worf's actions _possibly_ be
judged in terms of Klingon morays, if he is first (as he says) a citizen
of the Federation? And, especially when he has, through Dax's Federation
cleverness, done an end-run around the entire basis and heart of Klingon
culture, is there any ethical/cultural footing in Klingon society for his
actions.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Allen Blue | Drama Dept. | Stanford University | se...@leland.stanford.edu
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Fear no art.
CHRISTOPHER L HOLT
|> : The other question is, how well will the "Rodek" story hold up?
|>
|> : There will be no birth, school, military service, etc. records of
|> : a "Rodek" before the day he wakes up on Deep Space 9. It would be
|> : like the Klingon Empire suffered a case of amnesia with respect to
|> : "Rodek", just as "Rodek" supposedly suffered a case of amnesia.
|> : Even if such records could be planted, associates and family members
|> : of Nogra might be surprised about the existence of "Rodek", whom
|> : they never knew existed before.
|>
|> : As Kurn is likely to be mentioned in any description of recent
|> : Klingon history and politics, "Rodek" might notice that Kurn
|> : went into exile on Deep Space 9 and disappeared there at the
|> : same time that "Rodek" woke up with his amnesia.
|> The Rodek "story" will hold up about as well as the "story"
|> of a transport "accident" in Birthright Part Two to explain where
|> all those unknown Klingons came from, including a half-Klingon,
|> half-Romulan girl about 17 years old. In a society that is so structured
|> on family, I *sure* no one will check out those youngsters when they
|> appear and claim to be from a lost ship no one has any records of.
|> And none of them will be given physicals.
|> So you see, the new Kurn is quite safe. Why would any one
|> question his lineage?
Only point I want to make here is that the half-Romulan/Klingon girl that Worf
fell for did not go with the other Klingons since she felt that if Worf reacted
the way he did to her why would others who did not know her as well react any
differently, more than likely worse that he did. So she stayed behind with her
parents. And I also think that she would decide to do this anyway even without
the fear of rejection from both Romulans and Klingons, because she loved both of
her parents so much as they did her. Well, I've beaten that to death now. So
I'll end here.
P.S. Talking about all this Klingon stuff reminded me of a short part of
"Return to Grace" in which I thought I saw L'ursa on that Klingon ship. I saw
the episode twice and the second time I still thought it was her. DId anyone
else notice this? It was a very short scene. Like a couple of seconds.
CHRISTOPHER L HOLT
writes:
|> Aaron Browning (abro...@selway.umt.edu) wrote:
|> : Hmmm... here's a question:
|>
|> : Sisko's only scene in "Sons of Mogh" is the one where he gets VERY angry at
|> Dax and
|> : Worf for participating in the Klingon ceremony. He blurts out something
|> about it not
|> : being very Starfleet and how he has given them a lot of leeway with their
|> Klingon stuff in
|> : the past.
|>
|> : Why is it that he can be so intolerant towards Klingon rituals and socially
|> acceptable
|> : practices? You would think that Starfleet (via Prime Directive theory or
|> something)
|> : would be a whole lot more tolerable towards the customs of their officers.
|> The Prive
|> : Directive gives leeway to the philosophy that "Okay, we're not going to
|> pass judgement
|> : on a world's culture nor impose our culture on them nor change their
|> culture." Isn't Sisko
|> : doing just this when he is prevening the Klingons from participating in the
|> suicide
|> : ceremony???
|>
But then the Enterprise would have to follow the Excelsior since they all would
have turned into salamanders at that time. :=) Sorry for making a Voyager flame
and an off topic remark, but I thought I'd be a good laugh for people.
Robert Wiacek
> Does this means that Starfleet's respect for the norms of other cultures can be taken so far that
> Starfleet personnel can be FORCED to act in a way that they consider unethical or immoral, as
> long as their actions aren't regarded that way by the people affected?
What respect? Star-fleet should little if any respect for Klingon
culture when Worf wasn't allowed to kill his brother, even when his
society dictated that he must. Hell, he was almost brought up on
murder charges (but why wasn't he brought up on attempted murder when
Kurn survived, hmmm?).
Rob
Wulf
Sorry for jumping over your head, holt, but there were comments quoted in your
article that I hadn't seen.
It seems that a few people support the idea that Sisko should have allowed Worf
to kill Kurn. While this may be tolerance for different cultures, this would
also lead to anarchy on the station (or anywhere else). What happens to an
alien whose laws require it to sacrifice a sentient being every week to expunge
their sins (don't laugh, there have been earth cultures with similar practices
like the Central American societies a thousand years ago)? I won't even go into
Ferengi trade practices. What prevents aliens from claiming absolute freedom to
wreak death and destruction because their society condones it (ie Klingons).
I understand that this rubs against the grain of anarchists and civil
libertarians, but you just CAN'T let everybody in the galaxy do whatever they
want on DS9. Here's another example, what if a genetically altered Klingon (we
saw one in the Trouble With Tribbles) came to DS9 and sabotaged the station.
Would they be released because they were within Klingon law to do so? I don't
think so.
It is not enough to apply your logic to one episode or one incident. Once the
precedent is set we'd be arguing why the Federation gives special treatment to
Worf and no one else.
Wulf
Kaatje
StarFleet Command decided that he couldn't practive Kwanza? And
the virtual mental rape of Kurn was sickening, he wouldn't allow
Kurn to die an honorable death yet he allowed the man to do an
even more dishonorable thing as this? And was Kurn even
consulted before Worf and Bashir rewrote his life?
--
Kaatje qulbe'Kasara
jIHegh jISuqbe'chugh batlh!
(Death before Dishonour- House of Kasara Motto)
Allen Blue
> The only way out
> of this within the logic and believability of the characters is a "Search For
> Kurn" episode. Bashir, Dax, and especially Worf should be going through acute
> guilt for their actions.
I dunno -- I for one am happy to say 'Paramount screwed up, I sure
hope they realize it' and go on from here. There are lots of examples in
the canon of really poor choices (viz. 'Threshold') but one lousy choice
doesn't spell the end of the series, or of my interest in Star Trek as an
ongoing entity. The foundations of this lame idea came from Paramount's
fear of low viewer share and loss of ad revenues, and more precisely from
the culture that 'free-market television' engenders in Hollywood.
Unfortunately, for us, we ST fans are going to stick with the show through
thick and thin, or at least until it gets very, very thin.
For my part, I'm not one of those '30-years of unbroken
continuity' viewers; I can't quote episodes chapter and verse, and I
don't think that a little discontinuity is the death-knell of the
program. This isn't to say that it shouldn't be consistant, only that I
don't mind tossing out the crap like 'Threshold,' or this Kurn thing once
in a while.
The program doesn't have to be _perfect_, it only has to be
true to itself and the things that make it essentially itself. I'm not
interested in a follow-up episode (and I think the chances of it, of
Paramount admitting they screwed it up, are _very_ low anyway) or any
kind of attempt to explain it away. If Paramount is willing to admit
they got it wrong, then they ought to do penance, simply, by _not screwing
it up again_.
Drew Cameron Taylor
: How dare Sisko persecute Klingon tradition? How would he feel if
: the virtual mental rape of Kurn was sickening, he wouldn't allow
: Kurn to die an honorable death yet he allowed the man to do an
: even more dishonorable thing as this? And was Kurn even
: consulted before Worf and Bashir rewrote his life?
How do you know that he celebrates Kwanza?
How do you know he allowed the operation? Dax did say that he wouldn't
hear anything more about it. As the relations between doctor and patient
are confidential, Sisko has no need and no right to know what operations
the doctor performs on him.
: --
: Kaatje qulbe'Kasara
: jIHegh jISuqbe'chugh batlh!
: (Death before Dishonour- House of Kasara Motto)
--
Drew Taylor | "Wickedness is a myth invented
gt7...@prism.gatech.edu | by the good to explain the curious
Undergraduate Student | attractiveness of others."
Georgia Institute of Technology | - Oscar Wilde
Drew Cameron Taylor
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Distribution:
Wulf (Wu...@RC.Toronto.on.ca) wrote:
:
: Just wanted to echo your sentiments which echo mine so well. The only way
: out of this within the logic and believability of the characters is a
: "Search For Kurn" episode. Bashir, Dax, and especially Worf should be
: going through acute guilt for their actions. This is a case where the
: well-being of the group outweighed the well-being of the individual,
: according to the DS9 writers. But Kurn doesn't get the glorious death
: that Spock got in Wrath of Khan. He 'died' to ease the 'burden' of his
: brother Worf. Just like putting your parents into a home because they are
: too much trouble to take care of, or putting someone into an institution
: because they suffer a mental illness. Dr. Crusher once said that one of the
: medical ethics she lives by is to do nothing that makes the patient's
: condition worse. I find it hard to believe Bashir saw a brain dump as
: the 'only' cure for Kurn's depression. I also find it hard to believe that
: Odo would hire a security officer within a day (or week) after a person
: attempts suicide.
: Wulf
I think that you have mistaken Worf's motives. It seems thoroughly out of
character for Worf to elminiate his brother's life simply to ease his own
discomfort. The soltuion that Jadzia provides is ultimately the best
one--there is no murder, at least not in the most technical sense.
However, Kurn does recapture his honor. Is that not what he wanted? Let
me die, so I can have honor in the afterlife. Well, that is what he
finds.
I question exactly what kind of memory the doctor erased. In humans,
there are three types of long term memory: episodic, procedural, and
semantic. If the doctor only eliminates Kurn's episodic memory, his memory
of his life, he has not truly eliminated all of who Kurn is. If Kurn's
procedural and semantic memory remain intact, he retains his abilities,
his ideas, and his concepts of the world. As evidence of this, Kurn greets
the man claiming to be his father with affection, not distrust or even
neutrality. This implies that the concept of father that he formed over
his lifetime remains, although the man he originally called father does
not. The name dies, but the individual who was Kurn remains.
Wulf
says...
>
>David Watts (DGW...@SCIENCE.Watstar.UWaterloo.CA) wrote:
>: Now we see it being done again, although, in this case, not in VOYAGER,
>: but in DEEP SPACE NINE! This indicates to me that it's not VOYAGER, PER
>: SE, that's going downhill (although Voyager does seem to have had a
>: larger than average share of "bad" episodes recently), but it's ALL OF
>: STAR TREK. When the writers/producers show they don't care about the high
>: ethical and moral standards that Gene Roddenberry envisioned the
>: Starfleet Crew epitomizing in the 23rd/24th centuries, you know they have
>: basically turned their backs on the whole philosophy of Star Trek.
>
> 1. Despite the fact that armies of old school ST fans will probably kill
>me for this, Gene Roddenberry's "vision" and moral standards were silly,
>trite, and probably the single least interesting aspect of Trek. Wonder
>why the first season of TNG was crap? Because the episodes abandoned
>dramatic tension, moral ambiguity, etc., etc., etc., in exchange for
>Gene's "vision". It's no coincidence that the best Trek (DS9) came AFTER
>Roddenberry was out of the picture.
> 2. I agree that the ethics of wiping Kurn's memories is a tricky point
>that should have been dealt with in the episode, but that's just sloppy
>writing. It is not indicative of some wide-spread moral erosion in Trek.
>Voyager is crap not because it's immoral, but because it's crap. It all
>comes down to writing, not moral outlook. As Roddenberry showed us in the
>first movie, the first season of TNG, even periodically during TOS (which
>was probably LESS "moral" than DS9, when taken as a series anyway),
>"vision" is no substitute for "story".
>
>--
>==============================================================================
>| Pat Spacek psp...@waterloo.net http://www.waterloo.net/~pspacek |
>| Visit The Parking Lot is Full Comic Page at http://www.waterloo.net/~plif |
>==============================================================================
>
Interesting points, Pat. Let's see if an "old school ST" fan can provide an
equally interesting counter-point.
1. I disagree that the reason for TNG's poor first year was due to
all of Roddenberry's ethics. I concede that a commonly held belief back then
was that Gene didn't want a world as violent as TOS. TNG took on the roll of
'coast guard' rather than use TOS's 'explorer' motif. Any of you who remember
the now ancient TV series "The Golden Hind" will recall that Sir Francis Drake
often ran into hostile natives, hostile spanish and hostile situations all of
the time. The same goes for Kirk and crew in TOS.
By the 24th century Gene felt that the universe was a tamer place that allowed
the Enterprise D act as coast guard. Violence would usually be small scale and
manageable. You may notice than Picard was rarely sent on long exploration
missions. The problem for TNG was that they got trapped behind the 'flag ship'
motif. Star Fleet wouldn't send its flag ship into harm's way unescorted. And
the flag ship wouldn't leave home waters very often or for very long.
Consequently the opportunities for Picard and crew to get into mischief were
less than Kirk's.
Even so, "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "The Best of Both Worlds" were produced
with Gene's blessings. And you only have to look at the last TOS movie to see
that Gene could still produce an interesting movie with battles galore.
DS9 has a simpler time, in that they are governed by a hybrid of Bajoran and
Federation protocols. Since the Bajoran laws are not well known (ie not written
yet), you end up with some flexibility. In a way, DS9 gets back to the original
idea Roddenberry sold to Desilu (wagon train to the stars becomes frontier town
with a marshall, a saloon, and a jail). I think they've done very well with
character development (one of the main reasons I watch the series) and they
have provided more battle footage than all of the TNG episodes combined. Right
now they are suffering from too many dangling plot lines and not enough time
per week to develop them. There's Kai Winn's ambitions, Cardassian democracy,
the Klingon threat, the Dominion threat, Kira's love interest, Dax continuing
celibacy, O'Brien's marital difficulties, why was Alexander left with
grandparents who 4 years ago claimed to be too infirm to care for him, etc.
Voyager is still developing its identity. As advertised, they went with the TOS
'explorer' motif. Otherwise Voyager's development is much like TNG: mostly
character development based on one-shot plot devices with very few continuing
threads (such as the ongoing threat from the Caissons). Janeway falls somewhere
between Kirk and Picard. I like her more than I liked Picard, given the same
number of initial episodes. But it is obvious that Janeway is going to need a
truly magnificent script to bring out all of her personality before she's going
to be accepted by the some of you. One piece of advice I'd give the writers is
to give Janeway a reason to cry and let her. I think the biggest resistance to
her is that she appears to a 20th century feminist who wants to be more manly
than the men around her (and I am not typifying all feminists).
As for your second point, I'm not suggesting that there is a collapse of moral
standards within Trek. I am suggesting that the writers are getting sloppy with
their character development. It is NOT in character for these characters to
have brain-wiped Kurn. IMHO none of these characters would have played a part
in this if they didn't have writers pulling their strings. It was like watching
Crusher play Riker's lines when she used the power of the sun to destroy the
Borg ship (this is the same doctor who hated using Hugh to kill off the Borg,
the same doctor who was ready to plant nanites into the Borg ship, see what I
mean?).
There is nothing wrong with Roddenberry's ethics. As in any culture there are
rules in Trek and the way the characters interact with those rules gives us
character development. The 'Miami Vice' of Trek (TNG) is gone and we are left
with two programs which show us the colonization and exploration of space.
There are major threats and minor threats (ongoing plot-lines and one-story
plot-lines). If the writers can remember whose lines they are scripting, and
actually take some time to examine the fit, DS9 and Voyager will certainly
provide me with enough space entertainment for a week.
Just one aside. I recall reading an article on MASH that described how the
actors would go over their lines with the writers. As I recall, the actors were
able to keep their character personalities in mind when readin the lines, and
advise the writers when lines were not in character. It seems that this might
be a good strategy for Trek.
Wulf
Wulf
>
>3.91.9602222303...@elaine41.Stanford.EDU>
<4gkrrp$a...@news.nstn.ca>
>Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
>Distribution:
>
>Wulf (Wu...@RC.Toronto.on.ca) wrote:
>:
>: Just wanted to echo your sentiments which echo mine so well. The only way
>: out of this within the logic and believability of the characters is a
>: "Search For Kurn" episode. Bashir, Dax, and especially Worf should be
>: going through acute guilt for their actions. This is a case where the
>: well-being of the group outweighed the well-being of the individual,
>: according to the DS9 writers. But Kurn doesn't get the glorious death
>: that Spock got in Wrath of Khan. He 'died' to ease the 'burden' of his
>: brother Worf. Just like putting your parents into a home because they are
>: too much trouble to take care of, or putting someone into an institution
>: because they suffer a mental illness. Dr. Crusher once said that one of the
>: medical ethics she lives by is to do nothing that makes the patient's
>: condition worse. I find it hard to believe Bashir saw a brain dump as
>: the 'only' cure for Kurn's depression. I also find it hard to believe that
>: Odo would hire a security officer within a day (or week) after a person
>: attempts suicide.
>
>: Wulf
>
>I think that you have mistaken Worf's motives. It seems thoroughly out of
>character for Worf to elminiate his brother's life simply to ease his own
>discomfort.
My point exactly. I don't see any honor for Kurn or Worf in this decision.
>The soltuion that Jadzia provides is ultimately the best
>one--there is no murder, at least not in the most technical sense.
>However, Kurn does recapture his honor. Is that not what he wanted? Let
>me die, so I can have honor in the afterlife. Well, that is what he
>finds.
Who is "Kurn"? Who is "I"? Existential philosophy aside, is Kurn the body with
a new DNA pattern or is Kurn the personality that got erased? Just who is going
to get the honor in the afterlife?
>
>I question exactly what kind of memory the doctor erased. In humans,
>there are three types of long term memory: episodic, procedural, and
>semantic. If the doctor only eliminates Kurn's episodic memory, his memory
>of his life, he has not truly eliminated all of who Kurn is. If Kurn's
>procedural and semantic memory remain intact, he retains his abilities,
>his ideas, and his concepts of the world. As evidence of this, Kurn greets
>the man claiming to be his father with affection, not distrust or even
>neutrality. This implies that the concept of father that he formed over
>his lifetime remains, although the man he originally called father does
>not. The name dies, but the individual who was Kurn remains.
>
>--
>Drew Taylor | "Wickedness is a myth invented
>gt7...@prism.gatech.edu | by the good to explain the curious
>Undergraduate Student | attractiveness of others."
>Georgia Institute of Technology | - Oscar Wilde
The way I remember it Kurn would remember the mechanical aspects of his life
(language, how to open a door, etc.) but would not remember the incidents or
identities, including his own. And I thought Kurn did greet his new father with
hesitation (as in disorientation).
Klingon brain anatomy aside, I disagreed with the episode's resolution because
it strikes me as unethical and uncaring for people suffering with suicidal
depression. I watch the episode for a lift. It picks me up when I'm feeling
blue. I don't want to see episodes where the Federation is handling depression
by mind wipe. After all, there would be no depressions in the 24th century if
medical ethics said it's ok to erase personalities. There might just be a lot
of people who have no memory of their past.
Personally I favoured another resolution. My hope is that the writers might
chance by and pick up on the logic of my arguments and think twice before using
such a quick fix in the future.
Wulf
RRobin1061
is immaterial, personel under HIS command interfered with the rituals of
another race. Now we might not condone or agree with the Klingons idea of
when or why life should be terminated, but the prime directive protects
each culture's right to maintain their practices no matter how offensive
they might seem.
Consider the time the Enterprise brought the scientist (his name
escapes me) back to his planet where they were to end his life because he
had reached the prescribed age. (Shades of "Logan's Run) That was no more
barbaric then Worf's attempt to grant his brother's wishes. And no more
barbaric than our own age's Jack Kavorkian whose answer to lives ruined by
illness is abhored and applauded by different sections of our society.
As far as doctor-patient confidence goes. This is the military. I
served in the military as a doctor and the commanding officer IS apprised
of injured personel AND of the procedures required to return them to
health.
Since Worf was taken into custody immediately, Sisco would have been
informed of THAT and the circumstances surrounding it. He would have
known in time to have prevented any treatment to be finished on Kurn.
***** BUT !!! <G> We know that commanding officers violate the prime
directive ALL the time, otherwise the show would get boring. We like men
and women who break the rules. And anyway......I really like Kurn. I'm
glad he's alive..........the guy has class. I mean who can ever forget his
line to Riker??? " I KNOW this isn't a Klingon ship.......If it was I
would have killed you for making a suggestion." ORRRRR "How long has
this bird been dead?" (ROFL) (My all time favorite.)
But the bottom line is, if Sisco and his personel had obeyed the prime
directive, Kurn would be dead and Worf would not be guilty of a crime. I
believe the character of Worf would have been permanently screwed up after
it, but he would have felt it was his duty. As a final point - Dax
apologized to Worf later for interfering.
Hang in there Kaatje
K'Daq
Olssonkris
Kurn's memory. There should have been a big scene between Bashir and Worf
and Dax debating the medical ethics of memory wiping, with Dax and Worf
bringin Bashir around to the realization of Klingon culture and Kurn's
state of mind leaving no alternative. I believe the writers must have had
this scene in there but ran out of time.
With this scene in, it would have been an excellent episode.
As it is, it is an interesting episode with a plot hole.
Drew Cameron Taylor
: In article <4gojh6$a...@catapult.gatech.edu>, gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu says...
: >:
: >: Just wanted to echo your sentiments which echo mine so well. The only way
: The way I remember it Kurn would remember the mechanical aspects of his life
: (language, how to open a door, etc.) but would not remember the incidents or
: identities, including his own. And I thought Kurn did greet his new father with
: hesitation (as in disorientation).
: Klingon brain anatomy aside, I disagreed with the episode's resolution because
: it strikes me as unethical and uncaring for people suffering with suicidal
: depression. I watch the episode for a lift. It picks me up when I'm feeling
: blue. I don't want to see episodes where the Federation is handling depression
: by mind wipe. After all, there would be no depressions in the 24th century if
: medical ethics said it's ok to erase personalities. There might just be a lot
: of people who have no memory of their past.
: Personally I favoured another resolution. My hope is that the writers might
: chance by and pick up on the logic of my arguments and think twice before using
: such a quick fix in the future.
: Wulf
I don't believe that we can absolutely determine whether or not Kurn
possessed his original personality or not--we only saw the changed Kurn
for a few moments. We are in agreement that Kurn does not know his own
identity or those of others. However, the doctor obviously did not erase
everything Kurn knew about the world--otherwise he would have created an
automaton. How did Kurn know to ask Worf whether he was a member of his
family? Why not Jadzia? If his semantic memory were erased, he would
have no concept of Klingon, father, family, or honor; yet he recognized
Worf as a Klingon, therefore a possible member of his family. The
concepts about the world that Kurn formed during his lifetime remain in
the changed Kurn. This implies that his feelings and attitudes about the
world (his personality/self) remain as well, even if he now does not know the
life events from which they derive.
In cases of depression caused by environmental factors, not chemical ones,
the best solution is always to find the cause of depression and try to
elminiate it or help the individual cope with it. The source of Kurn's
depression is obvious--he has lost his honor. Worf did try to help Kurn
cope with this; he tried to help Kurn understand that no one could simply
steal his honor, that it was a part of him that only he could destroy. Kurn,
however, could not comprehend Worf's view of honor--it was too alien to
him. As Worf could not help Kurn cope with his dishonor, he spared him
the further dishonor of suicide by returning his honor to him, albeit
under another name.
Wulf
I see there is a difference of opinion regarding the role identity plays in
personality. For me the difference between Kurn's actions now vs his actions
before is that before his actions were rooted in the confidence of precedence.
"I did action A before and got consequence X. If I repeat action A I'm
confident consequence X will happen again". Now Kurn doesn't recall any of the
character building experiences from his life. I doubt whether Bashir's surgery
replaced the people in Kurn's life with people from his new 'life'. So for me
Kurn IS an automaton. He does things yet he doesn't remember why these things
should be done. That might be why amnesia is so disorienting.
As for eliminating or coping with the source of a depression. I thought the
source of depression was a failure to adapt our expectations to our reality.
This describes Kurn's problems well enough. It is akin to a child who throws a
tantrum because they can't get their way. If you do not accept a
universe where you don't always get what you want then you've set yourself up
for a depression. If you accept a universe that challenges you to take what you
want then you are not likely to suffer from depression (although you may have
other tendencies like violence). It seems to me the Klingon way is the latter,
which makes Kurn (or any other Klingon) a very unlikely candidate for
depression (don't get angy, get even mentality).
It just seems like such a waste of character to throw Kurn's identity out when
he could have been ordered by Worf to organize resistance to Gowron and reclaim
the honor and Glory of the House of Mogh. This was the choice Worf made in
TNG's "Sins of the Father" and Kurn accepted it then. It seems that DS9 has set
Worf up for a repeat of that plot line, and then decided to avoid it by dumping
Kurn's personality.
Anyway, I think I've said enough on this topic. I don't like the simplistic
solution offered by the DS9 writers regarding mental illness. I started
contributing to this thread by comparing the episodes solution to electro-shock
therapy. It does not display the typical compassion Trek is famous for (as in
the Q episode on Voyager). Added to this was the total lack of discussion of
ethics by Bashir (which is a complete change in character for someone who
wanted to save the Jem'hadar) and a total lack of honor on the part of
otherwise honorable Klingon warriors. The truth is, Kurn did not fight his
enemy until either he was dead or Gowron was dead. He ran and hid himself like
a coward, and Worf assisted him. If Kurn's warrior heart was broken by a mere
setback then he must have been spoiled as a kid. I have suffered worse and
still work towards the restoration of my house. And I'm only a Hu-Man.
Wulf
InstaReg 3703
The simple reason Kurn did not kill himself was the fact that in
the eyes of Kilingons, it is a dishonourable way to die. Kurn said it
right in "Sons of Mogh"
Jenny
_____________________________________________________________________________
qqt...@freenet.mb.ca
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perrin
Drew Cameron Taylor <gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu> wrote:
>How do you know he allowed the operation? Dax did say that he wouldn't
>hear anything more about it. As the relations between doctor and patient
>are confidential, Sisko has no need and no right to know what operations
>the doctor performs on him.
I really doubt that Bashir has the right to keep a secret such
as this from Sisko; he's not a private practitioner, after all.
Still, it's my working hypothesis that Bashir, Dax, and Worf ARE
keeping it a secret from Sisko anyway. There's the question, of
course, as to why they didn't just kill him as that would have been
easier to keep secret. I suppose it may be easier on their
consciousnesses. Worf said that he would be unable to participate in
the ritual again; perhaps he believes that, this way, a part of his
brother yet lives and may attain honor once again.
/
:@-) Scott
\
Note followups.
Stephen Krug
I have witnessed to date, and it reminds us that in the 24th century, we will
still be in touch with our dark sides. Sisko, as good of a captain he is,
blows his cool sometimes (although he seems to have been in a bad mood for
three episodes now). Worf, Dax, Quark, Odo, all seemed to have an edge, and
I think this is great for the series, every once in awhile to delve into that
side that we sometimes forget when watching the series.
Drew Cameron Taylor
: I see there is a difference of opinion regarding the role identity plays in
: personality. For me the difference between Kurn's actions now vs his actions
: before is that before his actions were rooted in the confidence of precedence.
: "I did action A before and got consequence X. If I repeat action A I'm
: confident consequence X will happen again". Now Kurn doesn't recall any of the
: character building experiences from his life. I doubt whether Bashir's surgery
: replaced the people in Kurn's life with people from his new 'life'. So for me
: Kurn IS an automaton. He does things yet he doesn't remember why these things
: should be done. That might be why amnesia is so disorienting.
True, he won't know why he acts in certain ways to certain stimuli, and
this will certainly be disorienting, but that does not mean that he will
lose confidence in his actions. If anything, it could promote more
confidence in them--he must trust himself to perform the right action,
regardless of whether he recalls where he acquired the knowledge or not.
Perhaps this is a simplistic example, but if I were to lose all the
knowledge of my life, yet still knew calculus, I would not hesitate to
integrate or differentiate. Practiced knowledge like this and concepts
like father and family remain as natural as breathing and walking.
: As for eliminating or coping with the source of a depression. I thought the
: source of depression was a failure to adapt our expectations to our reality.
: This describes Kurn's problems well enough. It is akin to a child who throws a
: tantrum because they can't get their way. If you do not accept a
: universe where you don't always get what you want then you've set yourself up
: for a depression. If you accept a universe that challenges you to take what you
: want then you are not likely to suffer from depression (although you may have
: other tendencies like violence). It seems to me the Klingon way is the latter,
: which makes Kurn (or any other Klingon) a very unlikely candidate for
: depression (don't get angy, get even mentality).
: It just seems like such a waste of character to throw Kurn's identity out when
: he could have been ordered by Worf to organize resistance to Gowron and reclaim
: the honor and Glory of the House of Mogh. This was the choice Worf made in
: TNG's "Sins of the Father" and Kurn accepted it then. It seems that DS9 has set
: Worf up for a repeat of that plot line, and then decided to avoid it by dumping
: Kurn's personality.
Worf did order his brother to live. He found him a job and told him to
work. Kurn did these things, and he did not hesitate in doing them.
However, Worf could not order his brother to enjoy life. In "Sins
of the Father," Kurn could still, in his mind, perform a valuable service
to the Empire. Kurn obviously did not see espionage as an honorable
persuit, despite Worf's rationalizations to the contrary. Kurn saw the
act for what it was: undermining the Empire. He could not accept this,
even if the cause was just. If he had remained on DS9 under Worf's
command, he would be an automaton, doing only those things that his
brother tells him, and nothing else.
: Anyway, I think I've said enough on this topic. I don't like the simplistic
: solution offered by the DS9 writers regarding mental illness. I started
: contributing to this thread by comparing the episodes solution to electro-shock
: therapy. It does not display the typical compassion Trek is famous for (as in
: the Q episode on Voyager). Added to this was the total lack of discussion of
: ethics by Bashir (which is a complete change in character for someone who
: wanted to save the Jem'hadar) and a total lack of honor on the part of
: otherwise honorable Klingon warriors. The truth is, Kurn did not fight his
: enemy until either he was dead or Gowron was dead. He ran and hid himself like
: a coward, and Worf assisted him. If Kurn's warrior heart was broken by a mere
: setback then he must have been spoiled as a kid. I have suffered worse and
: still work towards the restoration of my house. And I'm only a Hu-Man.
: Wulf
Perhaps they will engage Bashir's ethical qualms in a later
episode--perhaps his character has already worked through them. It is a
one-hour show, they cannot possibly explore every character development in
depth during the time they have to tell the story.
I do believe that this episode possessed the compassion common to Star
Trek; the solution was not a perfect one, but DS9 has never been about
perfection. Kurn was not a coward--he would have killed himself if he
were. He faced a lot more than "mere setback" in his life. He was
stripped of his honor, and unlike Worf, he did not have his duty to the
Federation to preserve him. He could see no future without honor, and as
a Klingon, he had none.
Wulf
qqt...@freenet.mb.ca says...
It would have shown poor form for Kurn to kill himself. The fact is, he should
have been sent back to the empire to organize resistance to Gowron and support
for the House of Mogh (sigh).
Wulf
Michael M. Welch
Kaatje <10402...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>How dare Sisko persecute Klingon tradition? How would he feel if
>StarFleet Command decided that he couldn't practive Kwanza?
If he felt strongly enough about Kwanzaa, he'd have to resign.
When Worf offed Duras, Picard clearly said that tolerance can only
extend so far in Starfleet. There are certain codes of conduct to
which a Starfleet officer *must* adhere. If said codes of conduct
are in conflict with the demands of that officer's culture, he/she
must choose either to surrender that aspect of their culture or to
leave Starfleet. That's the way it is.
(r.a.s.tech is removed from follow-ups because there's nothing
tech about this.)
- Michael
--
Michael Welch
mwe...@netcom.com
Bethany Jo Weber
: I question exactly what kind of memory the doctor erased. In humans,
: there are three types of long term memory: episodic, procedural, and
: semantic. If the doctor only eliminates Kurn's episodic memory, his memory
: of his life, he has not truly eliminated all of who Kurn is. If Kurn's
: procedural and semantic memory remain intact, he retains his abilities,
: his ideas, and his concepts of the world. As evidence of this, Kurn greets
: the man claiming to be his father with affection, not distrust or even
: neutrality. This implies that the concept of father that he formed over
: his lifetime remains, although the man he originally called father does
: not. The name dies, but the individual who was Kurn remains.
: --
: Drew Taylor | "Wickedness is a myth invented
: gt7...@prism.gatech.edu | by the good to explain the curious
: Undergraduate Student | attractiveness of others."
: Georgia Institute of Technology | - Oscar Wilde
But according to my Pych professor, someone without episodic memory still
knows their name, the names and faces of family and close friends, etc.
So either a) Bashir did something more complicated than erasing Kurn's
episodic memory, b) Klingon brains work different or c) The writers messed
up. Personally, I suspect the latter. :-)
I was dissipointed with the solution to Kurn's problem, but actually I
*can* imagine Bashir going along with it, given what happened to Bariel
last season. If Dax could convince Bashir that, as a Klingon, Kurn could
never come to terms with what had happened to him, and that he would
eventually commit suicide anyway, Bashir might decide that ereasing his
memory was the lesser of two evils. He seems to have more respect for
alien cultures and a bigger ruthless streak (for lack of a better word)
than Dr.Crusher did (you are who you eat lunch with?)
Bethany Weber
------------------Offical Weredragon of Rice University-------------------
"The truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination."
-Garak, DS9, "Improbable Cause."
But reality is *always* an excuse for lack of imagination.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote of the week, month, whatever:
"A clean and neat dwelling place is the sign of a disturbed mind."
-Skandranon, Mercedes Lackey, "The Black Gryphon"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryan McBride
> But the bottom line is, if Sisco and his personel had obeyed the prime
>directive, Kurn would be dead and Worf would not be guilty of a crime. I
>believe the character of Worf would have been permanently screwed up after
>it, but he would have felt it was his duty. As a final point - Dax
>apologized to Worf later for interfering.
DSN is in Bajorian Space. Bajoran law takes presidence over Klingon law/ritual.
Hence, Worf would have been a murder. The Prime Directive was not broken
by Dax and Odo. Klingon law/ritual/honor is not followed in Bajorian space.
Ryan
RRobin1061
>DSN is in Bajorian Space. Bajoran law takes presidence over Klingon
>law/ritual.
>Hence, Worf would have been a murder. The Prime Directive was not
>broken
>by Dax and Odo. Klingon law/ritual/honor is not followed in Bajorian
>space.
>Ryan
First - Odo cannot violate the prime directive as he is not a member of
Starfleet.
Second - Worf was not asking anyone in Bajoran Space to follow Klingon
law. He was carrying out what in effect (to a Klingon) was an act of
mercy. Kurn could not live with the shame of the loss of honor. Now a
Bajoran, or a Changeling or a Federation Human might not understand that,
but to a Klingon, to lose honor is the end of a meaningful life. His only
hope (in HIS belief) was to regain his honor in the Mauk-to Vor.
Third - Murder ? Worf would have accepted that just as I would if I
pulled the plug on a terminal relative. You can't apply human standards to
Klingon beliefs. You might not agree with them, but THEY believe in them.
Fourth - The only person to grasp the situation and understand the
horrible decision Worf AND Kurn had made was Dax. DAX a non-human who had
a long term contact with the Klingon culture.
The Bajorans have every right to arrest some one for a violation of
THEIR law, that doesn't change the right of a race to carry out what in
effect are "religious" rites.
'oy' DaSIQjaj
K'Daq
John Paulus
: On 21 Feb 1996, John Paulus wrote:
: > David Veal (ve...@web.ce.utk.edu) wrote:
: > : AJ Muia <ajm...@paul.spu.edu> wrote:
: >
: DS9 is the Star Trek with messy solutions. There are no 'easy'
: answeres to the political strife on Bajor, or the fragmentation and
: surrender of the Cardassian Empire, or to the perceived threat offered
: by the Dominion. Nonetheless, the characters manage to paint a picture
: of that 'perfect' Star Trek universe by choosing the hard way towards
: the 'high,' if difficult road.
: > i think Worf's acts might be accpetable by Klingon Standards.....
: Two things. Do you really think so? Killing someone
: (essentially) in their sleep, despite their desire for death, seems like
: an honorless way to go. Avoiding the whole question of 'is this person
: honorable' by amputating their history and identity: does this make the
: 'new person' honorable? Does this make the old person deserving of
: honor? Doesn't such avoidance belie the whole idea of personal honor?
Kurn was raised WITHOUT his identity in the first place (if i'm not
mistaken). for 20-28 Years of his life, Kurn was considered by the Empire as
of the House of (not Mogh). Yet when his true identity was reveal, Kurn was
NOT dishonored.
Much of Kurn's honor came from how he worked his way up to becoming one of
the greatest warriors at that time. (Considering that Kurn is at least 4
years younger than Worf, Kurn is/was pretty young to have become a
Commander, no?)
i believe something like this will happen again. Only Kurn's memories were
wiped--not his skill or character. Therefore, he will be able to regain his
stature among Klingons (probably challenging Gowron for the throne).
: Second: The episode is about Worf and his realization that the
: Federation is his essential home. Can Worf's actions _possibly_ be
: judged in terms of Klingon morays, if he is first (as he says) a citizen
: of the Federation? And, especially when he has, through Dax's Federation
: cleverness, done an end-run around the entire basis and heart of Klingon
: culture, is there any ethical/cultural footing in Klingon society for his
: actions.
It's a messy issue--when one is torn between two cultures. But i believe
Worf's acts are NOT dishonorable...certainly no more dishonorable than a
CLOAKING DEVICE. Kurn will now have to rely pretty much on himself, rather
than a family or alliance (unlike the House of Duras).
i believe the writers wrote the ending as it was so that the probable option
of Kurn regaining his memories and/or challenging Gowron will be set up when
they feel it's time to end the Klingon story arc.
--jp--
--
j.p. paulus 4625 N. Kenmore Avenue #2
sha...@ripco.com Chicago IL 60640-5024
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~shadowm/index.html 312/784-5640
********************** GO GOD!!!!! ************************
James L. Bourassa
>But according to my Pych professor, someone without episodic memory still
>knows their name, the names and faces of family and close friends, etc.
>So either a) Bashir did something more complicated than erasing Kurn's
>episodic memory, b) Klingon brains work different or c) The writers messed
>up. Personally, I suspect the latter. :-)
Well, don't forget that in the Star Trek Universe, amnesia seems to
be a pretty common occurance. Also remember the episode Conundrum,
where the crew had their " identity specific " memories wiped without
destroying their personalities, skills and the like. Since Kurn
didn't act like a zombie or a little child, I'd bet on his keeping
his personality, opinions and skills.
So, I don't think we can really compare this with a " mindwipe ",
like in Babylon 5. I mean, is someone with amnesia to be considered
dead or a completely different person?
That said, this show really should have shown Kurn agreeing to
the mind-wipe. I don't really care if he told Worf his life was in
Worf's hands. If Kurn wouldn't have agreed to the procedure, then
they shouldn't have done it.
In any case, I cannot believe Bashir would have gone through with
such a procedure without Kurn's acceptance. It seems utterly out of
character. I could see Worf, and maybe Dax, going ahead with such
a scheme, but never Bashir.
------------------------------------------------------------
James Bourassa
6500...@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
Thomas Michael Murray
>: How dare Sisko persecute Klingon tradition? How would he feel if
>: the virtual mental rape of Kurn was sickening, he wouldn't allow
>: Kurn to die an honorable death yet he allowed the man to do an
>: even more dishonorable thing as this? And was Kurn even
>: consulted before Worf and Bashir rewrote his life?
>
>How do you know that he celebrates Kwanza?
How does one even assume Sisko RECOGNIZES our present-day,
bigoted race-categories? To do so is self-congratulatory
and foolish.
>
>How do you know he allowed the operation? Dax did say that he wouldn't
>hear anything more about it. As the relations between doctor and patient
>are confidential, Sisko has no need and no right to know what operations
>the doctor performs on him.
This WAS a glaring problem. There's no WAY Bashir assents to the
operation without foreknowledge of Klingon tradition mitigating
his ethical position.
What this episode needed was a little scene between Kira and
Work in which he confides his desire to end his brother's life.
Kira, behind the scenes, then tells Sisko about it. He pops in
at the end and glares at Work disparagingly, but doesn't
disapprove.
thx
--
*****************************tmu...@sun1.iusb.edu*****************************
I dream a great ecliptic shadow fall | Their fortunes ebb and flow, gravitate
across the minds of many souls. | along its terminator line
*******************************February*1996***********************************
Wulf
>
>rrobi...@aol.com (RRobin1061) wrote:
>
>> But the bottom line is, if Sisco and his personel had obeyed the prime
>>directive, Kurn would be dead and Worf would not be guilty of a crime. I
>>believe the character of Worf would have been permanently screwed up after
>>it, but he would have felt it was his duty. As a final point - Dax
>>apologized to Worf later for interfering.
>
law/ritual.
>Hence, Worf would have been a murder. The Prime Directive was not broken
>by Dax and Odo. Klingon law/ritual/honor is not followed in Bajorian space.
>
>Ryan
I'm confused. I thought the Prime Directive applied to those races which did
not know of the existence of the Federation or any other space-faring races.
This looks more like the situation facing Picard when Gowron asked for
Federation assistance against Duras, ie an internal matter. As I recall, the
Prime Directive was established to avoid providing advanced tech or knowledge
to worlds which didn't have this info. TOS is replete with episodes along this
line ("Bread & Circuses", "A Private Little War", "A Piece of the Action" if I
recall these episodes correctly). I don't recall as many in TNG, but "Who
Watches the Watchers" comes to mind.
Anyway, the Prime Directive is not in effect when it comes to Bajor, which does
have space flight and is aware of the Federation and was occupied by Cardassia
for decades.
Wulf
Gene K
(actually it was their development, not their customs) of another
culture, it doesn't say that you have to let them come to YOUR place
and practice them.
Gene
Gryefalcon
I would have to say Worf took a very honorable way out in this. Remember
Worf ATTEMPTS to follow his ancestors ways which is commendable but he is
still a klingon who was raised by humans. In his situation I can see the
reasoning and the logic in his actions. Kurn was the only surviving
member of his house beside him and Alexander is not even close because he
is more human in thought and deed than his father. In the same situation
I would have done the same.
I would want my brother to keep on living. Remember, only his memories
were erased not his personality. Kurn didn't go through the famous mind
wipe. He was essentially the same person and able to continue existance.
wether or not Kurn would have saw it that way is irrelevant, but Worf is
the one who has to livwe with it because he remembers.
Pardon my rambling and my 2 cents. Flames will be sent to the complaint
department.
Rich Langston
K'elvar Lorenssith
Flight Engineer
Helm/Navigator
Head Bartender
IKV Jangral
KLAW
Gryefalcon
Gryefalcon
RRobin1061
0n 2/26/96 Rich wrote:
>Subject: Re: Sons of Mogh / Tolerance
>From: Gryefalcon <Fal...@igc.net>
>Date: 27 Feb 1996 16:12:45 GMT>
>Message-ID: <4gvaht$n9g@IRIS.i>gc.net>
>MY OPINION....REPEAT MY OPINION
******************
Yes.....Worf has always been torn between the two cultures. He longs for
the acceptance of the Klingon Race but he knows he really doesn't fit. He
said so himself, in a VERY poigniant sceen. When he sends his brother
away, alive but no longer his brother, he knows he has finally severed
ties with the Homeworld.
When someone is terminally ill (as in effect Kurn was, because a true
Klingon without honor cannot bear to live) we can't bear to see them
suffer, but we ALSO can't bear the thought of them leaving. We want to
hold onto them till the last moment. Kurn was adamant about the Mauk-to
Vor and Worf saw it as the only way at the moment to end his brother's
suffering. Yes.......as I have said before, the solution was a good one.
From a Klingon religion aspect, I doubt Kurn would have liked the idea.
Because in his own mind he would still be Kurn "the Klingon without honor"
just in another body. That in itself should spur some interesting
debates.
The Empire is VERY old. Its customs have been preserved for centuries.
Many races don't understand them. Maybe it would have been better if Kurn
had persued the rite in Klingon space. But in the end, the death of Kurn
would have devistated Worf. I like Kurn........and I like the solution.
Qapla' majQa' K'elvar !
K'Daq Kasara
Chief of Staff to the Lady K'Zin zantai Kasara
KIDC/Terra
Nina Lite
When the writers/producers show they don't care about the high
ethical and moral standards that Gene Roddenberry envisioned the
Starfleet Crew epitomizing in the 23rd/24th centuries, you know they have
basically turned their backs on the whole philosophy of Star Trek.
Gene Roddenberry is not responsible for half of the characters in STNG.
The TNG bible as it is and part of the TOS bible is not his, other people
ghost-wrote those wonderful ideals and characters. Gene Roddenberry "the
creator" is mostly made out fan adoration and a good publicity. The best
of Star Trek has always been made by a large number of talented people !!
Why do you think TNG episodes of the first two seasons were so crappy?
and why the last seasons of TNG are legendary ?
Get your facts straight! If Gene Roddenberry would have been allowed to
run TNG as he wanted, the show would have never lasted 7 seasons, and you
would have never watched!
Ninalite
First they came for the hackers. But I never did anything
illegal with my computer, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for the pornographers. But I thought there was
too much smut on the Internet anyway, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for the anonymous remailers. But a lot of nasty
stuff gets sent from anon.penet.fi, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for the encryption users. But I could never
figure out how to work PGP anyway, so I didn't speak up.
Then they came for me. And by that time there was no one left
to speak up.
--based on a quote from Pastor Martin Niemoller
John H Kim
>>law/ritual. Hence, Worf would have been a murder. The Prime Directive
>>was not broken by Dax and Odo. Klingon law/ritual/honor is not followed
>>in Bajorian space.
>
>did not know of the existence of the Federation or any other space-faring
>races. This looks more like the situation facing Picard when Gowron asked
>for Federation assistance against Duras, ie an internal matter. As I
>recall, the Prime Directive was established to avoid providing advanced
>tech or knowledge to worlds which didn't have this info.
Actually, this is contradicted in TNG. In _Justice_ (first
season TNG), they introduce themselves to the planet of bimbos as
representatives of the Federation -- but later the Prime Directive
supposely restricts them from interfering with the Edo's enforcement
of their laws against a Federation member (Wesley).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim | "Faith - Faith is an island in the setting sun.
jh...@columbia.edu | But Proof - Proof is the bottom line for everyone."
Columbia University | - Paul Simon, _Proof_
Bryan Costin
>How dare Sisko persecute Klingon tradition? How would he feel if
>StarFleet Command decided that he couldn't practive Kwanza? And
>the virtual mental rape of Kurn was sickening, he wouldn't allow
>Kurn to die an honorable death yet he allowed the man to do an
>even more dishonorable thing as this? And was Kurn even
>consulted before Worf and Bashir rewrote his life?
>
As Sisko pointed out, Worf is a Starfleet officer on a Bajoran and Federation
operated space station. When he became a Starfleet officer, he sacrificed some
of the freedoms and protections that he would have enjoyed as a private
citizen. Perhaps this is why Sisko felt justified in condemning his actions.
Worf was perfectly willing to give up his commision if honor demanded it, so
he understood the situation.
As for Kurn, the man was clearly suicidal. Klingon tradition considers suicide
to be a dishonorable death, and Kurn repeatedly tells Worf that his (Kurn's)
life is his to do with whatever he pleases. Given the alternative of waiting
around for Kurn to kill himself and die without honor, and given that Worf had
implied consent to do whatever he thought was necessary, I would not be that
surprised if Sisko _would_ have approved the procedure. I'm sure that he'd
figure it out eventually, anyway. And who said that what Worf did was
dishonorable? Surely Dax and Worf would have mentioned it were considered so.
-Bryan
>--
>Kaatje qulbe'Kasara
>
>jIHegh jISuqbe'chugh batlh!
>(Death before Dishonour- House of Kasara Motto)
HoSmar
>Ryan wrote on 2/26/96 :
>>DSN is in Bajorian Space. Bajoran law takes presidence over Klingon
>>law/ritual.
>>Hence, Worf would have been a murder. The Prime Directive was not
>>broken
>>by Dax and Odo. Klingon law/ritual/honor is not followed in Bajorian
>>space.
>>Ryan
> First - Odo cannot violate the prime directive as he is not a member of
>Starfleet.
> Second - Worf was not asking anyone in Bajoran Space to follow Klingon
>law. He was carrying out what in effect (to a Klingon) was an act of
>mercy. Kurn could not live with the shame of the loss of honor. Now a
>Bajoran, or a Changeling or a Federation Human might not understand that,
>but to a Klingon, to lose honor is the end of a meaningful life. His only
>hope (in HIS belief) was to regain his honor in the Mauk-to Vor.
> Third - Murder ? Worf would have accepted that just as I would if I
>pulled the plug on a terminal relative. You can't apply human standards to
>Klingon beliefs. You might not agree with them, but THEY believe in them.
How would a Christian feel if he/she could not practice their
christmas, a Musslim their Ramadam, etc.
> Fourth - The only person to grasp the situation and understand the
>horrible decision Worf AND Kurn had made was Dax. DAX a non-human who had
>a long term contact with the Klingon culture.
I have no more respect for Dax. I can not understand why she did not
keep her silence? She knew how imprtant this was, but yet she stopped
it.
> The Bajorans have every right to arrest some one for a violation of
>THEIR law, that doesn't change the right of a race to carry out what in
>effect are "religious" rites.
Well said sir.
> K'Daq
May all your days be filled with honour
HoSmar
Bartricia A. Williams
<<StarFleet Command decided that he couldn't practive Kwanza? And
<<the virtual mental rape of Kurn was sickening, he wouldn't allow
<<Kurn to die an honorable death yet he allowed the man to do an
<<even more dishonorable thing as this? And was Kurn even
<<consulted before Worf and Bashir rewrote his life?
Hon, Kwanzaa never KILLED anyone. I'm sick and tired of Klingons being
given leeway to pretty much do what they want and get away with it with
just a slap on the wrist. Thank goodness Sisko had the guts to stand up
and put an end to this crap. Cultural diversity is fine, but just
letting anything happen in the name of diversity is just plain stupid.
About time someone put Worf in his place and meant it.
And what makes you think Sisko practices Kwanzaa?
--
Bartricia, The DS9 Captain's Woman
-*-"I've always been a Captain's woman. I'll remain a Captain's woman
-*- even if I have to go through every officer in the fleet. "
baw4...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu -*- http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~baw44883
Scott Taylor
: I have to agree with Kaatje. Although what Sisco does or doesn't practice
: is immaterial, personel under HIS command interfered with the rituals of
: another race. Now we might not condone or agree with the Klingons idea of
: when or why life should be terminated, but the prime directive protects
: each culture's right to maintain their practices no matter how offensive
: they might seem.
The Thuggee, worshippers of Kali, practiced ritual assassination of
strangers on the roads. Should Sisko, if Thuggee (now thought to be an
extinct cult, because the British tried *damn* hard to wipe them out in
the late 19th, early 20th century) came to his station, allow them to
randomly kill off passengers of ships coming to dock there, just because
the Prime Directive "requires" this of him?
The Prime Directive protects the "normal development" of a "native
culture". It *does not* apply to star-faring cultures (otherwise
Starfleet would not be allowed to defend the Federation from attackers;
after all, this is the "normal development" of a race like the Kligons,
neh?) nor to cultures that are interacting with the Federation *on
Federation property* (ie, if your laws say don't eat the roses, fine. on
*your* planets, we won't eat the roses. On the other hand, on *our*
planets, the laws say "Thou shalt not kill...unless in self defense, and
only with good reason then"; so please don't kill anyone on our planets).
: Consider the time the Enterprise brought the scientist (his name
: escapes me) back to his planet where they were to end his life because he
: had reached the prescribed age. (Shades of "Logan's Run) That was no more
: barbaric then Worf's attempt to grant his brother's wishes.
Different situation; Picard was respecting the wishes of a planetary
government (and remember, in the end Timos (sp?) ended up going back
voluntarily) and this was as it should be. But if they had instead snuck
an assassin on board to kill Timos, the situation would have been different.
: As far as doctor-patient confidence goes. This is the military. I
: served in the military as a doctor and the commanding officer IS apprised
: of injured personel AND of the procedures required to return them to
: health.
True; and since Sisko is also military governor of the station (as
evidenced by his control over the rents and facilities charges on DS9),
he is responsible for the wellbeing of every person on the station.
: Since Worf was taken into custody immediately, Sisco would have been
: informed of THAT and the circumstances surrounding it. He would have
: known in time to have prevented any treatment to be finished on Kurn.
Which would have been a violation of Federation protocol, and wrong.
: ***** BUT !!! <G> We know that commanding officers violate the prime
: directive ALL the time, otherwise the show would get boring. We like men
: and women who break the rules.
But Sisko didn't violate the Prime Directive...
: But the bottom line is, if Sisco and his personel had obeyed the prime
: directive, Kurn would be dead and Worf would not be guilty of a crime. I
: believe the character of Worf would have been permanently screwed up after
: it, but he would have felt it was his duty. As a final point - Dax
: apologized to Worf later for interfering.
No, Kurn would be dead, and Worf would have been up for a Court Martial
on the charge of pre-meditated (1st degree in 20th century NY) Murder,
and likely to be stripped of his rank, his honor, and his freedom.
Worf committed the crime of attempted murder. Sisko was apparently able
to overlook this, given that the victim was not willing to press charges
(apparently in 24th century law, if the victim survives, it is up to them
to actually press charges, and society has no recourse to press charges
on it's own based on the idea of protecting society as a whole). But with
Kurn dead (and no family other than Worf, who is of course assumed not to
be an unbiased party), the Court system would have to step in and press
charges. And Worf, with his total intolerance of prevarication, would
simply plead guilty; and be sentanced.
Scott Taylor/Lord Richard Cameron | Do you dream of a Journey/Taking you back
Izzy...@faerealm.roc.servtech.com| to your home/Where the cry from/The heart
Mac service Tech, Freelance Writer| of the Highland lives on? -Capercaillie
World's only Italian Scottish Mick :) 'Heart of the Highland' _Delirium_
Gene K
couldn't follow their customs, they just said they couldn't do it
THERE.
Gene
Wulf
says...
>
>Wulf <Wu...@RC.Toronto.on.ca> wrote:
>>In article <DnEEq...@iquest.net>, rdmc...@skyenet.net says...
>>>law/ritual. Hence, Worf would have been a murder. The Prime Directive
>>>was not broken by Dax and Odo. Klingon law/ritual/honor is not followed
>>>in Bajorian space.
>>
>>did not know of the existence of the Federation or any other space-faring
>>races. This looks more like the situation facing Picard when Gowron asked
>>for Federation assistance against Duras, ie an internal matter. As I
>>recall, the Prime Directive was established to avoid providing advanced
>>tech or knowledge to worlds which didn't have this info.
>
> Actually, this is contradicted in TNG. In _Justice_ (first
>season TNG), they introduce themselves to the planet of bimbos as
>representatives of the Federation -- but later the Prime Directive
>supposely restricts them from interfering with the Edo's enforcement
>of their laws against a Federation member (Wesley).
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John Kim | "Faith - Faith is an island in the setting sun.
>jh...@columbia.edu | But Proof - Proof is the bottom line for everyone."
>Columbia University | - Paul Simon, _Proof_
Actually, your point does not contracdict my position. The Edo are a race that
did not have contact with space-faring races, and so fall into the same
category as the proto-Vulcans in "Who Watches the Watchers". I would expect the
PD to be in effect with the Edo.
The argument in this thread is whether the PD is in effect with the Klingons. I
seriously doubt it, tho I still have to check the Redemption series to be sure
(I know I said I would check it, it's been a busy week).
Watch this group for my analysis,
Wulf
John Paulus
: rrobi...@aol.com (RRobin1061) wrote:
: >Ryan wrote on 2/26/96 :
: > Third - Murder ? Worf would have accepted that just as I would if I
: >pulled the plug on a terminal relative. You can't apply human standards to
: >Klingon beliefs. You might not agree with them, but THEY believe in them.
: How would a Christian feel if he/she could not practice their
: christmas, a Musslim their Ramadam, etc.
A Christian shouldn't even care about Christmas (Jesus never celebrated it
after he was actually born)...(that was sarcasm). But really---if your
beliefs are really important, then you will live (or die) with the
consquences (i.e. the many Christian martyrs from long ago, and even today,
such as in China), whether or not you career is finished.
C. Clark
>
>In article <1996Feb19.2...@cc.usu.edu>, sl...@cc.usu.edu says...
>>
>>>2> Correct me if I am wrong, but Bashir REFUSED to sustain Berial's body with
>>>more electronic implants because 'only the body would go on, all that made
>>>Berial who he was would be gone'. How does he justify wiping away 'all that
>>>made Kurn who he was' and allowing only Kurn's body to go on? Regardless of
>>...
>... (too much to quote)
Bashir was willing to wipe Kurn's memory, but not replace Berial's personality.
Not exactly the same thing. Personality is only partly dependent on memory.
As for the question of cures for depression, that is only part of the issue.
Kurn's depression was caused by ostracism (as an adult) not only from his
immediate place in society but from his entire species. And Klingons are taught
(and perhaps even know instinctively) that they have no worth outside of their
status in Klingon society. I agree that the work therapy idea was a bit lame,
but the point was supposed to be that they didn't have any viable alternatives.
I still found the solution unsatisfactory, but so did the characters in the
story, as far as I can recall.
By the way, at least half the reason why electroconculsive therapy is unpopular
as a treatment for depression is that it was very badly misused back when it was
popular (like liberalism, only much more so). These days it is done much more
sensibly and safely, and memory loss is often only noticeable in the short term.
And it does not cure depression by removing unpleasant memories. Memory loss
would be more likely to cause depression than to cure it. ECT works by producing
a seizure that "snaps" the patient out of their depressed mind-state. See
_The_Good_News_About_Depression_ by Mark S. Gold, M.D. (esp. pp. 303-305 in the
1995 edition) for further information.
Alex Clark ccl...@vicon.net
Teklu
>In article <4h4fih$g...@news.nstn.ca>, Wu...@RC.Toronto.on.ca says...
>>
>>In article <1996Feb19.2...@cc.usu.edu>, sl...@cc.usu.edu says...
>>>
>>>>2> Correct me if I am wrong, but Bashir REFUSED to sustain Berial's body with
>>>>more electronic implants because 'only the body would go on, all that made
>>>>Berial who he was would be gone'. How does he justify wiping away 'all that
>>>>made Kurn who he was' and allowing only Kurn's body to go on? Regardless of
>>>...
>>... (too much to quote)
>
>Bashir was willing to wipe Kurn's memory, but not replace Berial's personality.
>Not exactly the same thing. Personality is only partly dependent on memory.
>
>Alex Clark ccl...@vicon.net
Interesting discussion.
-Teklu
Joesph Smith
<harvey...@delphi.com> writes
> The ending of Son's of Mogh brought up a sticky issue.
> I remember an episode of TNG where Captain Picard
>rebukes an ambassador for using Dianna as a "receptacle"
>of unwanted emotions (Man of the People)
>Captain Picard called the ambassador a coward. He committed
>a "wantonly immoral act and justified it by connecting it with
>some higher purpose."
> Erasing a man's memories and tricking him into living
>a life that is a lie is evil. It is in the same category
>as giving a mental patient a frontal lobotomy to make him
>easier to deal with.
> Furthermore, Worf lost his honor in TNG and eventually
>regained it. The same could happen with Kurn.
>
>Would any of you like your memories wiped?
>You'll never notice the difference ...
>
>Ruben
I recently got this episode myself and found out that I am indeed as
appalled as I thought I would be. Sometimes Klingon honor is a very
strange thing. Obviously it is more honorable to ask your brother to
kill you instead of fighting to get your honor back. I agree completely
to what you said - also Kurn could have found a way one day to regain
his honor, especially if Gowron one day really goes too far and he
looses his.
At the very least Worf should have done this procedure on Klingon
territory, for example on a Klingon ship and not under Sisko`s nose. And
that Dr. Bashir agreed to this surprised me even more!
Not to mention that I am getting fed up with popular characters being
killed off - my fiance refuses to watch this episode. Yes, his body is
alive but his personality is gone and that is nothing else for me than
being killed.
--
Baerbel
Paul Coffey
>No matter what? Even if, for instance, it involved the murder of
>other sentients, or treason, or some other major violent crime?
Right you are, David, how about I set up altars to Huitzilopchtli
and Tlaloc in his town square? {{:-]
Qapla'
qeSmIv HarghwI'
codex
> ccl...@vicon.net (C. Clark) wrote:
> >In article <4h4fih$g...@news.nstn.ca>, Wu...@RC.Toronto.on.ca says...
> >>
> >>In article <1996Feb19.2...@cc.usu.edu>, sl...@cc.usu.edu says...
> >>>
> >>>>2> Correct me if I am wrong, but Bashir REFUSED to sustain Berial's
body with
> >>>>more electronic implants because 'only the body would go on, all
that made
> >>>>Berial who he was would be gone'. How does he justify wiping away
'all that
> >>>>made Kurn who he was' and allowing only Kurn's body to go on?
Regardless of
> >>>...
> >>... (too much to quote)
The doctor's ethics aside, the salient thing is Worf agreeing to the
procedure in the first place. Did he not originally object to the whole
Kahless-clone-as-emperor schtick because it was deceitful? A trick?
What Kurn said about Worf's inability to fight honorably for the right of
ritual suicide ("Did you fight them?") was right on and the best part of
the episode. The writers really missed an opportunity to deal with the
issues of assisted suicide in a meaningful, powerful way.
Look at Worf's actions: he places his own honor above his family's in the
first place. He fails to insist on his right to aid his brother in a
time-honored ritual suicide (the preformance of which we see in a TNG
episode is a captain's perogative). He demeans his brother through "work
therapy." After he realizes he hasn't the guts to go through with the
ritual, he condemns his brother to the life of an amnesiac living under
the beneficence of another Klingon house.
My God!
The writers painted themselves into an ethical corner, and rather than
dealing with it in a forthright manner, they used treknology to get out of
it, and in the process botched the paint job entirely. Why didn't they
consider what would be ethical in an *alien* context?
Had Worf gone though with the ritual-- over Sisko's explicit objections--
my God what a potent episode that would have been! Worf gets a powerful
reprimand for behaving as a true Klingon, but his honor is intact: he did
what honor required whatever the personal cost. It's happened to him
before and it was terribly potent.
--
Tim Johnson
co...@primenet.com
Wulf
says...
>
>In article <4hfmok$f...@ravel.seattleu.edu>, Teklu <Te...@seattleu.edu> wrote:
>
>> ccl...@vicon.net (C. Clark) wrote:
>> >In article <4h4fih$g...@news.nstn.ca>, Wu...@RC.Toronto.on.ca says...
>> >>
>> >>In article <1996Feb19.2...@cc.usu.edu>, sl...@cc.usu.edu says...
>> >>>
>> >>>>2> Correct me if I am wrong, but Bashir REFUSED to sustain Berial's
>body with
>> >>>>more electronic implants because 'only the body would go on, all
>that made
>> >>>>Berial who he was would be gone'. How does he justify wiping away
>'all that
>> >>>>made Kurn who he was' and allowing only Kurn's body to go on?
>Regardless of
>> >>>...
>> >>... (too much to quote)
>
>The doctor's ethics aside, the salient thing is Worf agreeing to the
>procedure in the first place. Did he not originally object to the whole
>Kahless-clone-as-emperor schtick because it was deceitful? A trick?
>
>What Kurn said about Worf's inability to fight honorably for the right of
>ritual suicide ("Did you fight them?") was right on and the best part of
>the episode. The writers really missed an opportunity to deal with the
>issues of assisted suicide in a meaningful, powerful way.
>
confronted with a 'ritual murder' which somehow gives a Klingon the 'honour'
necessary to get to Stovokor (Klingon heaven). This just seems to me to be too
Romulan for it to be an acceptable Klingon practice. I would expect (nay,
demand) that Kurn would want to go out trying to kill Gowron rather than end
his life uselessly. I think the problem is that Worf didn't leave him with
either option. This is not the Worf who faced Gowron on the transporter pad and
tried to coerce Gowron into restoring his family honour with the offer of his
brother's ships.
>
>Look at Worf's actions: he places his own honor above his family's in the
>first place.
>
honourable promises of allegiance to Star Fleet and the Federation. Despite the
fact that he has broken that promise to assist Gowron win the Klingon civil
war. Being the head of a House would suggest that others trust you providing
you prove loyal to your oaths. It was Kurn who sat on the High Council
representing the House of Mogh and involving himself in the intrigues of the
court (or standing above them) and it is to Kurn that Gowron should have turned
into an ally. Kurn speaks for the House of Mogh as long as Worf's allegiance is
given to the Federation and Worf's attentions are elsewhere. Ever hear of
Richard the Lion-Hearted and his younger brother, John?
>
>He fails to insist on his right to aid his brother in a
>time-honored ritual suicide (the preformance of which we see in a TNG
>episode is a captain's perogative).
>
approve the experimental procedure which would give Worf his full mobility.
Picard acknowledged that Worf would eventually find a way to kill himself, even
if Dr. Crusher kept Worf locked up for a while. In fact, everyone in that
episode dodged the issue while spending an hour discussing it. And besides,
Kurn could still swing a Bat'leth.
>
>He demeans his brother through "work
>therapy." After he realizes he hasn't the guts to go through with the
>ritual, he condemns his brother to the life of an amnesiac living under
>the beneficence of another Klingon house.
>
>My God!
>
>
>The writers painted themselves into an ethical corner, and rather than
>dealing with it in a forthright manner, they used treknology to get out of
>it, and in the process botched the paint job entirely. Why didn't they
>consider what would be ethical in an *alien* context?
>
the realm on behalf of Emporer Worf. That's pretty radical for TV these days.
>
>Had Worf gone though with the ritual-- over Sisko's explicit objections--
>my God what a potent episode that would have been! Worf gets a powerful
>reprimand for behaving as a true Klingon, but his honor is intact: he did
>what honor required whatever the personal cost. It's happened to him
>before and it was terribly potent.
>
if it seeks to be butchered like cattle awaiting the hammer? This isn't the
'fire-in-your-blood' Way of the Warrior I recall.
>
>--
>Tim Johnson
>co...@primenet.com
&
Wulf
drsoran
: >He demeans his brother through "work
: >therapy." After he realizes he hasn't the guts to go through with the
: >ritual, he condemns his brother to the life of an amnesiac living under
: >the beneficence of another Klingon house.
: >
: >My God!
: >
: I hope my brother treats me better.
Of course he would.. your life isn't built upon the very fabric
that once your honor is ruined, your life is over. You can get your ass
kicked in a fight and run away like a coward, yet the entire world isn't
going to shun you and keep you from gaining rank or running for
politics! In Klingon society Kurn's life WAS over. He grew up a
Klingon, he lived his life as a Klingon, and Gowron took that all away.
Its sort of like if Steve Forbes grew up wealthy and famous all his life
but the President stripped all his wealth away from him and made a
universal mandate barring him from gaining employment ANYWHERE in the
entire country.. sure he could run, but he'd be running from everything
he knew... granted running to Europe and starting over is a little easier
than running to the Federation.. ;)
: >
: >The writers painted themselves into an ethical corner, and rather than
: >dealing with it in a forthright manner, they used treknology to get out of
: >it, and in the process botched the paint job entirely. Why didn't they
: >consider what would be ethical in an *alien* context?
: >
: Yeah, Kill Gowron, House of Mogh takes over Empire, Kurn rules as steward of
: the realm on behalf of Emporer Worf. That's pretty radical for TV these days.
Is it? Duras killed K'mpec by poisoning him... Worf killed Duras
with a nice over the shoulder slice into his chest.. attacking Gowron in
the middle of the night might be dishonorable though.. yet if Kurn
attempted to have Gowron fight him Gowron may have ignored such an
"unhonorable" slime bucket and had one of his guards kill Kurn. (Which
would probably be more demeaning being executed than dying at the hands
of your brother in Klingon society)
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
drs...@ni.cba.csuohio.edu
Courthleigh Cannick
: In article <codex-14039...@ip178.tus.primenet.com>, co...@primenet.com
: >
: >Look at Worf's actions: he places his own honor above his family's in the
: >first place.
: >
: Which act? His refusal to help Gowron attack Cardassia was sticking with his
: honourable promises of allegiance to Star Fleet and the Federation. Despite the
: fact that he has broken that promise to assist Gowron win the Klingon civil
: war. Being the head of a House would suggest that others trust you providing
: you prove loyal to your oaths. It was Kurn who sat on the High Council
: representing the House of Mogh and involving himself in the intrigues of the
: court (or standing above them) and it is to Kurn that Gowron should have turned
: into an ally. Kurn speaks for the House of Mogh as long as Worf's allegiance is
: given to the Federation and Worf's attentions are elsewhere. Ever hear of
: Richard the Lion-Hearted and his younger brother, John?
-Speaking of family, I recall an episode of ST:TNG in which Worf considered sending his son Alexander to be educated on the Klingon Home World and to live with Kurn and his children. What happened to Kurn's family and what of their honor or disgrace?
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DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING ENGINEER "...but probably should be!"
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