Sisko and Sheridan too similar
Franklin Hummel
In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
====================================================================
* NecronomiCon, 4th Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
August 1999, Providence, RI * Guests: Fred Chappell & T.E.D. Klein
Visit our web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
Franklin Hummel
In article <644d3e$g5s$1...@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>,
Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
>Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
been given an outline of B5' concept, then passed it on to TREK's
producers (who did not know its original source) and said, do something
like this in a TREK series.
B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>>
>> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
>>
--
ar...@ix.netcom.com
hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel) wrote:
>In article <644d3e$g5s$1...@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>,
>Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
>
>
> You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
>before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
>
> The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
>been given an outline of B5' concept, then passed it on to TREK's
>producers (who did not know its original source) and said, do something
>like this in a TREK series.
>
> B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
>
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>
>
>>Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>>>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>>>
>>> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
>>>
>
Your listening to JMS a little bit too much. And there was no Sheridan
character when B5 was pitched to Paramount. Only after the Sinclair
character was dropped/fired did JMS come up with Sheridan and DS9 was
already in its second season by then. The groundwork for Sisko being
the Emissarry was laid in season one episode one of DS9.
Hey, I like B5 quite a bit but I don't think that everyting JMS tells
us is gosple. He has had 3 major cast members quit or be fired so not
everything is rosey over there.
Hiero Bosch
Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>
>
> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
>
>
You're so predictable Hummel.
Hiero Bosch
Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>>
> B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
But how does this relate to Sisko being like Sheridan? I don't even think
that is true. Could you perhaps clarify that first?
Paul Rubin
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.971109...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
Matthew Murray <mmu...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>> Hey, I like B5 quite a bit but I don't think that everyting JMS tells
>> us is gosple. He has had 3 major cast members quit or be fired so not
>> everything is rosey over there.
>
Andrea Thompson, Michael O'Hare.
Kroagnon
Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>
>
> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
This was true initally, but they have since evolved into two very seperate
shows. Anybody who watches both shows can see that.
Kroagnon
to respond via E-Mail, remove the nope- before my E-Mail address
Hiero Bosch
Matthew Murray wrote in message ...
+AD4-On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 argee+AEA-ix.netcom.com wrote:
+AD4APg-
+AD4- How do you know this? Were you at the pitching? According to
+AD4-jms, the Sheridan character was in the plan from the beginning, but his
+AD4-introduction into the series was moved forward.
Really? They intended to dump Sinclair from the start?
+AD4- You have no proof that Sheridan wasn't in the plan all along.
+AD4-Since it is jms' story, I would tend to believe him over you.
JMS also has a stake in saying otherwise.
+AD4-
+AD4- And the groundwork for Sinclair being Valen was laid out in the
+AD4-pilot of Babylon 5, which aired in 1993, about a month after DS9's pilot
+AD4-aired, which means they were filmed in close proximity. What's your point?
That there's no ripping off. In any regard, a lot more has been done with
Sisko than with Valen in this regard, and his position as Emissary is more
intriguing than the Gringo savior of the Grey Council. That's what really
matters.
+AD4-
+AD4- Um... Claudia Christian quit, and... um... who else?
Jason Carter. I don't think O'Hare left on the best of terms.
John Moore
Sheridan and Sosko are alike, but who the hell cares. The shows themselves
are different. Story telling is different, and the rest of the characters
aren't anything alike
Kroagnon wrote in message <644r73$p73$1...@news5.ais.net>...
Travers Naran
Robert Skinner (rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk) pontificated:
> Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
You may think that Robert, but it ain't true. Especially since B5's
existence was documented long before anyone heard about DS9.
I refer you to the rec.arts.sf.tv FAQ for information.
Travers Naran
Hiero Bosch (pe...@rhodes.edu) pontificated:
>
> Matthew Murray wrote in message ...
> +AD4-On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 argee+AEA-ix.netcom.com wrote:
> +AD4APg-
> +AD4- How do you know this? Were you at the pitching? According to
> +AD4-jms, the Sheridan character was in the plan from the beginning, but his
> +AD4-introduction into the series was moved forward.
>
> Really? They intended to dump Sinclair from the start?
If you take JMS' word, yes. He had every intention of sending
Sinclair back in time before the end of the Shadow War.
I remember back in Season One (when everyone thought Sinclar was
around for the long haul), JMS said something to the effect:
"The One sometimes seems to be Sinclair. It also seems to be
Delenn. But The One also sometimes seem like someone else
entirely. I haven't introduce that third part yet."
I believe if one has the patience, one can find the exact quote on the
Lurker's Guide <http://www.midwinter.com/lurk>
> +AD4- And the groundwork for Sinclair being Valen was laid out in the
> +AD4-pilot of Babylon 5, which aired in 1993, about a month after DS9's pilot
> +AD4-aired, which means they were filmed in close proximity. What's your point?
>
> That there's no ripping off. In any regard, a lot more has been done with
> Sisko than with Valen in this regard, and his position as Emissary is more
> intriguing than the Gringo savior of the Grey Council. That's what really
> matters.
Well, that's the whole point. DS9 has diverged from B5. Both shows
went in unique directions. I feel DS9 had a really good direction
until Season 3 or 4. Then it began to have curious coincidences with
B5. I'll let others beat that dead horse.
> +AD4- Um... Claudia Christian quit, and... um... who else?
>
> Jason Carter. I don't think O'Hare left on the best of terms.
Jason Carter did not quit.
O'Hare claims he left on the best of terms; JMS claims the same thing;
Others claim something else.
nicholas louis rogal
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Franklin Hummel wrote:
> In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>
>
> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
>
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
UH-DS9 is in its 6th season B5 is in its 4th, Sisko has been the
emissary since episode 1.
nicholas louis rogal
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Franklin Hummel wrote:
> In article <644d3e$g5s$1...@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>,
> Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
>
>
> You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
> before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
>
> The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
not correct., commonly accepted by whom?
> been given an outline of B5' concept, then passed it on to TREK's
> producers (who did not know its original source) and said, do something
> like this in a TREK series.
i doubt that.
>
> B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
its also a better show, but i think both programs have been
ripping off each other.
>
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>
>
> >Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
> >>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
> >>
> >> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
> >>
>
>
> --
nicholas louis rogal
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Matthew Murray wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 ar...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> > Your listening to JMS a little bit too much. And there was no Sheridan
> > character when B5 was pitched to Paramount.
>
> How do you know this? Were you at the pitching? According to
> jms, the Sheridan character was in the plan from the beginning, but his
> introduction into the series was moved forward.
>
> > Only after the Sinclair
> > character was dropped/fired did JMS come up with Sheridan and DS9 was
> > already in its second season by then.
>
> You have no proof that Sheridan wasn't in the plan all along.
> Since it is jms' story, I would tend to believe him over you.
>
> > The groundwork for Sisko being
> > the Emissarry was laid in season one episode one of DS9.
>
> And the groundwork for Sinclair being Valen was laid out in the
> pilot of Babylon 5, which aired in 1993, about a month after DS9's pilot
> aired, which means they were filmed in close proximity. What's your point?
>
> > Hey, I like B5 quite a bit but I don't think that everyting JMS tells
> > us is gosple. He has had 3 major cast members quit or be fired so not
> > everything is rosey over there.
>
> Um... Claudia Christian quit, and... um... who else?
Marcus wanted to leave (not sure)
Tanya quit.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dedicated to all the people who predicted that the
> Babylon Project would fail in its mission.
> Faith manages.
>
> -J. Michael Straczynski, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Babylon 5's Fifth Season Begins January 21, 1998
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Matthew A. Murray - mmu...@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~mmurray
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Matthew Murray
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Paul Rubin wrote:
> In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.971109...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
> Matthew Murray <mmu...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
> >> Hey, I like B5 quite a bit but I don't think that everyting JMS tells
> >> us is gosple. He has had 3 major cast members quit or be fired so not
> >> everything is rosey over there.
> >
> > Um... Claudia Christian quit, and... um... who else?
>
> Andrea Thompson, Michael O'Hare.
I had forgotten about Andrea Thompson, so you're right about
that. But as for Michael O'Hare, let's face it, no one knows what really
happened, so I'm willing to give jms, the Executive Producer, the benefit
of the doubt. (After all, Mr. O'Hare did return in three later
episodes.) You might as well say that the actor playing Keffer and Jason
Carter were fired or quit as well. <rolls eyes>
Robert Skinner
Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>
>
> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
>
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
Robert Skinner
okay then, my mistake
Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>In article <644d3e$g5s$1...@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>,
>Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
>
>
> You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
>before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
>
> The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
>been given an outline of B5' concept, then passed it on to TREK's
>producers (who did not know its original source) and said, do something
>like this in a TREK series.
>
> B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
>
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>
>
>>Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>>>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
>>>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>>>
>>> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
>>>
>
>
>--
Matthew Murray
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Robert Skinner wrote:
> Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
Then you think wrong.
Matthew Murray
On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 ar...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> Your listening to JMS a little bit too much. And there was no Sheridan
> character when B5 was pitched to Paramount.
How do you know this? Were you at the pitching? According to
jms, the Sheridan character was in the plan from the beginning, but his
introduction into the series was moved forward.
> Only after the Sinclair
> character was dropped/fired did JMS come up with Sheridan and DS9 was
> already in its second season by then.
You have no proof that Sheridan wasn't in the plan all along.
Since it is jms' story, I would tend to believe him over you.
> The groundwork for Sisko being
> the Emissarry was laid in season one episode one of DS9.
And the groundwork for Sinclair being Valen was laid out in the
pilot of Babylon 5, which aired in 1993, about a month after DS9's pilot
aired, which means they were filmed in close proximity. What's your point?
> Hey, I like B5 quite a bit but I don't think that everyting JMS tells
> us is gosple. He has had 3 major cast members quit or be fired so not
> everything is rosey over there.
Um... Claudia Christian quit, and... um... who else?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
starcro1
Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>In article <644d3e$g5s$1...@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>,
>Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
>
>
> You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
>before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
>
> The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
>been given an outline of B5' concept, then passed it on to TREK's
>producers (who did not know its original source) and said, do something
>like this in a TREK series.
>
> B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
>
There is a difference between "commonly accepted beliefs" and "the truth."
It is probably a commonly accepted belief that the Baby Ruth candy bar was
named after a baseball player. In fact, the candy was named after the
granddaughter of a U.S. President.
The difference is evidence. Without some hard evidence (something more
compelling than the USENET rumor mill) that "Babylon 5" was pitched to
Paramount before "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" was developed, it is libelous
to accuse Paramount of ripping off the concept.
Show us verifiable facts. "Commonly accepted beliefs" are worse than
useless.
Matthew Murray
On 9 Nov 1997, starcro1 wrote:
> The difference is evidence. Without some hard evidence (something more
> compelling than the USENET rumor mill) that "Babylon 5" was pitched to
> Paramount before "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" was developed, it is libelous
> to accuse Paramount of ripping off the concept.
I agree that we can't officially state that Paramount stole the
idea for Babylon 5, but the show >was< pitched to Paramount before the
concept of DS9 came out. That's not in question. Whether or not the
concept was actually borrowed or not... I don't think we'll ever know
for sure.
Franklin Hummel
In article <34658...@ALPHA.RHODES.EDU>,
>
>that is true. Could you perhaps clarify that first?
humans who command space stations who it develops are religious leaders
for an alien race. Knowing that B5 concept was created first, I think
it fairly plain to see where DS9's Sisko originated.
The religious leader aspect to Sheridan (and Delenn) has not been
as directly developed as with Sinclair, but the groundwork for it has been
laid in a number of episodes. Thus in B5 when in the future monks are
seen reading "holy" books dealing with Sheridan, it is easy to understand
how this would have developed.
I suspect there has been some drift in the original concepts of B5
and DS9 over the years with the Sinclair/Sheridan/Sisko characters, but to
me it is obvious they originated from the same source.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
starcro1
Matthew Murray wrote in message ...
>On 9 Nov 1997, starcro1 wrote:
>
>> The difference is evidence. Without some hard evidence (something more
>> compelling than the USENET rumor mill) that "Babylon 5" was pitched to
>> Paramount before "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" was developed, it is
libelous
>> to accuse Paramount of ripping off the concept.
>
> I agree that we can't officially state that Paramount stole the
>idea for Babylon 5, but the show >was< pitched to Paramount before the
>concept of DS9 came out. That's not in question. Whether or not the
>concept was actually borrowed or not... I don't think we'll ever know
>for sure.
Let me explain myself, here.
I don't know you. You may be a perfectly honorable person whose word is good
as gold. Then again, you may not be so trustworthy.
I asked for *proof,* i.e., some evidence *other* than your word to verify
your statements. Not being a regular viewer, I don't know enough about the
history of "Babylon 5" to accept your assertion of its being pitched to
Paramount pre- "Deep Space Nine" as a fact beyond question. An example of
such evidence would be, say, a signed receipt from a messenger service,
showing that Paramount development people accepted delivery of a "Babylon 5"
script as of a certain date.
I don't mean to be a noodge, but actionable allegations have been made, and
your say-so would not stand up in a court of law. I'm open to hear your
arguments about this-being-a-ripoff-of-that, but I would require real
evidence before I will believe you.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johnny Lamar Rhyne
In <EJDqF...@world.std.com> hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel)
writes:
>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net>
wrote:
>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
>
>
> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
This explains why you seem to hate every DS9 episode you see.
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>--
>
====================================================================
> * NecronomiCon, 4th Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
> August 1999, Providence, RI * Guests: Fred Chappell & T.E.D.
Klein
> Visit our web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
--
Mr. H.R. Bradshaw(Deceased)
Head Minister, Ministry of Silly Walks
*Is your life in a rut? Then head down
to your local silly walks recruiter today.*
Join now and we will send you a free Shrubbery.
Gavin T. Caradonna
>In article <34658...@ALPHA.RHODES.EDU>,
>Hiero Bosch <pe...@rhodes.edu> wrote:
>>Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>> B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
>>But how does this relate to Sisko being like Sheridan? I don't even think
>>that is true. Could you perhaps clarify that first?
>
> I suspect there has been some drift in the original concepts of B5
>and DS9 over the years with the Sinclair/Sheridan/Sisko characters, but to
>me it is obvious they originated from the same source.
>
>
> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>
C'mon People. Isn't it obvious what the REAL Sinclair/Sheridan/Sisko
similarity is???? I mean its staring you right in the face.....
Thel ALL start with the letter "S"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gavin
"Forever having an uncanny grasp of the blatantly obvious"
Troy-...@psu.edu
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.971109...@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>,
nicholas louis rogal <ro...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Franklin Hummel wrote:
>
> > In article <644d3e$g5s$1...@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>,
> > Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
> >
> >
> > You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
> > before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
> >
> > The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
> not correct., commonly accepted by whom?
1. BABYLON 5 IS A CLONE OF STAR TREK: DEEP SPACE NINE.
FALSE. DS9 was conceived in 1992. Babylon 5 was conceived in 1987.
Babylon 5’s first appearance is in the novel “Othersyde” copyright 1990,
2 years before DS9:
Chris' mom called him to watch his show. “Babylon 5 was one of his
favorite programs, the only decent science-fiction series on TV.”
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
John Paulus
ar...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel) wrote:
: >In article <644d3e$g5s$1...@svr-c-02.core.theplanet.net>,
: >Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
: >>Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
: >
: >
: > You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
: >before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
: >
: > The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
: >been given an outline of B5' concept, then passed it on to TREK's
: >producers (who did not know its original source) and said, do something
: >like this in a TREK series.
: >
: > B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
: >
: >
: > -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
: >
: >
: >>Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
: >>>In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
: >>>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
: >>>
: >>> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
: >>>
: >
: Your listening to JMS a little bit too much. And there was no Sheridan
: character when B5 was pitched to Paramount. Only after the Sinclair
: character was dropped/fired did JMS come up with Sheridan and DS9 was
: already in its second season by then. The groundwork for Sisko being
: the Emissarry was laid in season one episode one of DS9.
Actually, Sinclair had been slated by Prophecy the whole time...but some
parts of Sheridan seem to be a copy (i.e. love of baseball)
: Hey, I like B5 quite a bit but I don't think that everyting JMS tells
: us is gosple. He has had 3 major cast members quit or be fired so not
: everything is rosey over there.
Well....my opinion is that although DS9 had questionable origins, it's come
a long way, and both series have been a blessing to TV sci-fi (as opposed to
Voyager)
--jp--
: >
: >--
: > ====================================================================
: > * NecronomiCon, 4th Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
: > August 1999, Providence, RI * Guests: Fred Chappell & T.E.D. Klein
: > Visit our web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
--
j.p. paulus 4625 N. Kenmore Avenue #2
sha...@ripco.com Chicago IL 60640-5024
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~shadowm/index.html 773/784-5640
********************** GO GOD!!!!! ************************
'Droid
Johnny Lamar Rhyne wrote:
>
> In <EJDqF...@world.std.com> hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel)
> writes:
> >
> wrote:
> >>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
> >
> >
> > It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
There is nothing in either show that I haven't read in science-fiction
that predates both. They have brought together aspects in different
ways, and included the new perspectives as our technology has advanced.
But the basic ideas in both are not original. There is very little that
is truely original in SF, just variations and recombinations on a theme.
Having said that, I enjoy both shows and try not to miss an episode of
either. They are both good examples of SF. As for portrayals of
commanders and captains, you will be hard pushed to come up with more
than four or five truely distinct personalities.
'Droid
Batz
In <3466a4d7...@NNTP.netcom.ca>
gcra...@netcom.ca (Gavin T. Caradonna) wrote:
>On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:20:58 GMT, hum...@world.std.com (Franklin
>Hummel) wrote:
>
>>In article <34658...@ALPHA.RHODES.EDU>,
>>Hiero Bosch <pe...@rhodes.edu> wrote:
>>>Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
>>>>>
>>>> B5 is the original. DS9 is the copy.
>>>But how does this relate to Sisko being like Sheridan? I don't even think
>>>that is true. Could you perhaps clarify that first?
>>
>> I suspect there has been some drift in the original concepts of B5
>>and DS9 over the years with the Sinclair/Sheridan/Sisko characters, but to
>>me it is obvious they originated from the same source.
>>
>>
>> -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>>
>
>
>C'mon People. Isn't it obvious what the REAL Sinclair/Sheridan/Sisko
>similarity is???? I mean its staring you right in the face.....
>
>Thel ALL start with the letter "S"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the spirit of this observation, shouldn't the true parallel be
between Jeff Sinclair, John Sheridan and *Jake* Sisko?
B&R
David Serchay
:971109193708....@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>
Distribution:
OK, so Deep Space Nine is a rip off of Lord of the Rings, right?
:)
Dave
--
David Serchay
a013...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Tom Thatcher
In article <645jf5$dhq$1...@gte1.gte.net>, starcro1 <star...@gte.net> wrote:
>
>
>Let me explain myself, here.
>
>I don't know you. You may be a perfectly honorable person whose word is good
>as gold. Then again, you may not be so trustworthy.
>
>I asked for *proof,* i.e., some evidence *other* than your word to verify
>your statements. Not being a regular viewer, I don't know enough about the
>history of "Babylon 5" to accept your assertion of its being pitched to
>Paramount pre- "Deep Space Nine" as a fact beyond question. An example of
>such evidence would be, say, a signed receipt from a messenger service,
>showing that Paramount development people accepted delivery of a "Babylon 5"
>script as of a certain date.
You can read all of JMS statements archived at the Lurker's Guide.
He has given the full development chronology of B5. If you assume he
is a 100% liar, then I suggest you consider the following circumstantial
evidence.
The B5 and DS9 pilots aired in the same week. Therefore, the only
way one could be a rip-off of the other is if someone had inside
information. DS9 was created at Paramount and funded by Paramount.
So no one connected with the original conception of DS9 ever had to take
material around to studios to find funding. On the other hand, B5
was conceived by one man, who went to all of the major studios and
production companies with a "pitch" (artwork, scripts, series bible,
budgets) to try to find someone to fund production.
Before you conclude that B5 is a rip-off of DS9, I ask you for a
credible explanation of how a guy whose TV credits include
"Captain Power," "Murder, She Wrote," and "The Real Ghostbusters"
cartoon, managed to liberate from Paramount's offices the series
bible for DS9, create a new series, get it funded, and film a pilot
based on the stolen DS9 concept, which included foreshadowing of
events that wouldn't happen for 4 years down the road, all in time
to air the same week as DS9's pilot.
And FWIW, there is a "Babylon 5" reference in "Captain Power,"
so if you still think jms stole the concept from Paramount,
explain how he went back in time to retcon it into CP.
--
Tom Thatcher | You can give a PC to a Homo habilis,
University of Rochester Cancer Center | and he'll use it, but he'll use it
tt...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu | to crack nuts.
Nyrath the nearly wise
Thus spoke 'Droid (af...@netcomuk.co.uk):
> There is nothing in either show that I haven't read in science-fiction
> that predates both.
This is true. It's just when two SF TV shows premier,
both about space stations in disputed space near a
stargate with a female second in command and a male
commander who is to become a religious leader, well,
one wonders...
Robert H. Wolfe
Franklin Hummel wrote:
>
> In article <64865o$3...@clarknet.clark.net>,
>
> > one wonders...
>
> One does indeed.
One wonders when people will give this tired bullshit
a rest. Nobody stole nothing from nobody. Even JMS
admits that now (or at least I'm pretty sure I read
something that said he no longer believed DS9 swiped
from B5... I've never heard him say anything at all
on the subject in person).
Look, I could give a shit about "protecting the
franchise." I'm outa there. I get to cash my
residual checks no matter what I say. But I do care
about protecting the truth. And the truth is that
Michael Piller and Rick Berman made up DS9 all
by themselves. And as for the rest of us... I've
seen a grand total of about 3 episodes of B5, and
I think I've watched more of it than anyone else
on staff, past or present. The only time I changed
anything in a DS9 script because of a B5 episode
was to _remove_ a coincidental similarity (changing
the Gray Order to the Obsidian Order). Other than
that, we ignored them and I'm pretty sure they
ignored us.
Why people who know better (and that means you,
Hummel) persist is spreading lies to the contrary
completely mystifies me.
Robert H. Wolfe
grizzled DS9 vet
Hiero Bosch
Nyrath the nearly wise wrote in message +ADw-64865o+ACQ-3bt+AEA-clarknet.clark.net+AD4-...
+AD4-Thus spoke 'Droid (afmn+AEA-netcomuk.co.uk):
+AD4APg- There is nothing in either show that I haven't read in science-fiction
+AD4APg- that predates both.
+AD4-
+AD4- This is true. It's just when two SF TV shows premier,
+AD4- both about space stations
Wow+ACE-
+AD4-in disputed space
Yes, the Cardassian/Bajoran situation is SO similar to Epsilon's position
between the major powers
+AD4-near a
+AD4- stargate
Yeah, those run of the mill jumpgates instantly shout WORMHOLE+ACE-
+AD4-with a female second in command
I keeping get Kira and Ivanova confused... who's who?
+AD4-and a male
+AD4- commander who is to become a religious leader, well,
+AD4- one wonders...
...how interesting it is that both had completely different ways of
approaching that religious leader issue.
Evan Burton
> >Robert Skinner <rob...@yeoman.softnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>Er, i think B5 was ripped off from DS9 actually
> >
> >
> > You are wrong. BABYLON 5 was offered to Paramount several years
> >before DEEP SPACE NINE was created. Paramount did not take it.
> >
> > The commonly-accepted belief it that Paramount's suits, having
> >been given an outline of B5' concept, then passed it on to TREK's
> >producers (who did not know its original source) and said, do something
> >like this in a TREK series.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
> >>>>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
> >>>
> >>> It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
> >>>
> >
>
> character when B5 was pitched to Paramount. Only after the Sinclair
> character was dropped/fired did JMS come up with Sheridan and DS9 was
> already in its second season by then. The groundwork for Sisko being
> the Emissarry was laid in season one episode one of DS9.
>
> us is gosple. He has had 3 major cast members quit or be fired so not
> everything is rosey over there.
>
I'm new to this newsgroup stuff, so if I make a faux pas, you have my
apologises in advance.
Apart from legal fandangling, and creative disputes, does it really
matter which came first? If your a dedicated fan of one, but not the
other, then I guess you would disagree with me. But I love both Star
Trek (all) and Babylon 5.
To me, it doesn't matter who came first. Even if one is a copy of the
other, it's just more of a good thing. I don't mind copies.... as long
as they are GOOD copies. Gene, JMS: Thanks to both of you!
Evan Burton
ev...@cairns.net.au
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/7881
ICQ 2174011
"What a beautiful day... now watch some bastard come along and stuff it
up!"
Franklin Hummel
In article <64865o$3...@clarknet.clark.net>,
Nyrath the nearly wise <nyr...@clark.net> wrote:
>Thus spoke 'Droid (af...@netcomuk.co.uk):
> This is true. It's just when two SF TV shows premier,
> commander who is to become a religious leader, well,
> one wonders...
One does indeed.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
Franklin Hummel
In article <3467A3...@cairns.net.au>,
Evan Burton <ev...@cairns.net.au> wrote:
>
> I'm new to this newsgroup stuff, so if I make a faux pas, you have
>my apologises in advance.
> Apart from legal fandangling, and creative disputes, does it really
>matter which came first? If your a dedicated fan of one, but not the
Why did not JMS press charges? Because if he had, it would have
been a major uphill battle taking years of time and lots and lots of
money and production of BABYLON 5 would have stopped while all the legal
claims were being settled.
So, instead, he went ahead and made B5.
Gary J. Weiner
Robert H. Wolfe wrote:
>
> Franklin Hummel wrote:
> >
> > In article <64865o$3...@clarknet.clark.net>,
> > Nyrath the nearly wise <nyr...@clark.net> wrote:
> > >Thus spoke 'Droid (af...@netcomuk.co.uk):
> > >> There is nothing in either show that I haven't read in
> > >> science-fiction that predates both.
> > >
> > > This is true. It's just when two SF TV shows premier,
> > > both about space stations in disputed space near a
> > > stargate with a female second in command and a male
> > > commander who is to become a religious leader, well,
> >
> > ...a religious leader -for an alien race-...
> >
> > > one wonders...
> >
> > One does indeed.
>
> a rest. Nobody stole nothing from nobody. Even JMS
> admits that now (or at least I'm pretty sure I read
> something that said he no longer believed DS9 swiped
> from B5... I've never heard him say anything at all
> on the subject in person).
Well, he's said plenty about it online. Here are some recent
CIS postings and an old usenet post culled from DejaNews.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 17 Sep 1997 12:15:19 -0700
From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016...@compuserve.com>
To: (blocked)
Subject: DS9 = Babylon5 So what?
Message-ID: <forum.sfmed...@compuserve.com>
References: <forum.sfmed...@compuserve.com>
Here's the "so what" part of it....
If we allow for the moment, just the moment and no more, that
perhaps it did happen as I and others think it might have
happened...that Paramount influenced the development of DS9 to co-opt
B5....
Imagine that you have just spent five years building a custom
car. And before you can even take it out of the garage, someone nabs
it. And every day thereafter, they drive it up and down your street,
and everyone talks about what a great car it is, and how the other car
you still have is okay, and should't we be happy that the neighborhood
has *both* cars to look at?
And if you commented on it, and someone told you, "so what?" I
wonder what your reaction would be.
jms
------------------------------
Date: 03 Sep 1997 12:35:27 -0700
From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016...@compuserve.com>
To: (blocked)
Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5
Message-ID: <forum.sfmed...@compuserve.com>
References: <forum.sfmed...@compuserve.com>
I was irritable about it at first. Very much so, since it
jeapordized B5 ever being picked up as a series. We had a huge battle
to fight on the premise that there was room enough for two space SF
series (virtually all the studios had conceded that one), then to say
that there was room for, and the market could sustain, two *space
station* SF series, well, suffice to say it caused us a lot of hassle.
But in the final analysis, you come down to some basic
fundamentals. First, it comes down to making a good show. I'd rather
compete in the marketplace of free ideas; if we make a good show, it'll
succeed...if not, not, and it's a moot point. Second, as much as I may
suspect that the development of DS9 was guided by some of the execs at
Paramount who had access to all our material, I don't *know for sure*
that it was...and if you're going to be fair you *have* to allow for
the possibility of simultaneous, independent creation. So I'm fairly
sanguine about it, as much as can be, anyway.
jms
------------------------------
Date: 25 Aug 1997 12:39:24 -0700
From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016...@compuserve.com>
To: (blocked)
Subject: DS9 = Babylon 5
Message-ID: <forum.sfmed...@compuserve.com>
References: <forum.sfmed...@compuserve.com>
I believe that some development execs at Paramount may have
guided the development process along parallel lines, without those at
ST knowing what was going on.
jms
--------------------------------
Subject: DS9 vs B5 comments
From: strac...@genie.geis.com
Date: 1995/06/18
Message-ID: <199506190254...@relay1.geis.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5
[More Headers]
The producers of ST have had plenty to say about B5 in various
places,
so why should I be silent just because it bugs *you*? Are you bothered
by
Paramount getting Stephen Furst bumped off a Paramount talk show to help
keep him from discussing B5? By Paramount leaning on a primarily ST
director to get him to back out of agreeing to direct a B5 episode? By
the accounts we've received of stations being told that they could have
Voyager only if they dropped B5? By conversations directly related to
me
by convention managers at Creation and elsewhere that Paramount was
FURIOUS that B5 people were being invited to these things?
As to your request for similarities between the two shows, based on
the pilots (after which the two shows have somewhat gone off in varying
directions):
DS9 B5
Space station locale Space station locale
Wormhole for transportation Jumpgate for transportation
CO is of Commander rank CO is of Commander rank
Female 2nd in command Female 2nd in command
Promenade Zocalo
CO is scarred by recent conflict CO scarred by recent conflict
Shapechanger in pilot Shapechanger in pilot
Female 2nd defends against Female 2nd defends against
attack fleet at end attack fleet at end
Series name ends in number Series name ends in number
DS9 for diplomacy/business B5 for diplomacy/business
CO's initials are J.S. CO's initials are J.S. (which I
made my signature on the show)
jms
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Gary J. Weiner - webm...@hatrack.net
http://www.hatrack.net
HatRack Web Design & Hosting - Hang your web with us
-----
"And so he says I don't like the cut of your jib. And I go I says, IT'S
THE ONLY JIB I GOT, BABY!" - The Evil Midnite Bomber what bombs at
Midnite
Jeff Barrus
Franklin Hummel (hum...@world.std.com) wrote:
: In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
: >Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
:
:
: It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
:
: -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
Now, where have I heard that one before? Man, get over it! There is no
evidence. None!
The similiarties people draw upon are tenuous at best. Both shows are set
on a station. Both shows feature characters with messianic traits. Hate
to say this, but virtually every SF series in the history of the genre has
a messiah character. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer is almost a messiah.
-Jeff
Jeff Barrus
Matthew Murray (mmu...@statler.cc.wwu.edu) wrote:
: On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 ar...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: > Your listening to JMS a little bit too much. And there was no Sheridan
: > character when B5 was pitched to Paramount.
: How do you know this? Were you at the pitching? According to
: jms, the Sheridan character was in the plan from the beginning, but his
: introduction into the series was moved forward.
Anything to save his precious arc. Sinclair was fired, Sheridan was
cobbled together to replace him. He was never planned from the beginning.
He is essentially Sinclair, just with a different name and a slightly
different character.
I'm so sick of this argument. I don't believe that Paramount ripped off
B5 -- it's a coincidence. There's a book out about the making of DS9 that
outlines the entire process that went into creating the show --
originally, the show wasn't even set on a station, it was to be on Bajor,
itself, kind of like a Western as the Federation assisted in the
reconstruction of the planet. There's production art clearly showing this.
What did they do, make up the production art just to "throw us off the
scent?" Just to cover up the conspiracy set to rip off B5? JMS made up
the damn story to try to steal viewers away from DS9, because his show was
not doing well.
I just can't believe how positively crazy you people are. It's
television, not a religion. Entertainment. All these conspiracies about
Paramount ripping off B5 are just ridiculous -- why would that do
something like that? It's only television! They already had a Universe to
build on, and DS9 fits naturally in it. Why would their writers, who are
perfectly capable, need to rip off JMS? I've watched both shows, and the
similarities really are thin coincidences. They're very, very, different.
-Jeff
Graham Kennedy
Hiero Bosch wrote:
>
> Nyrath the nearly wise wrote in message +ADw-64865o+ACQ-3bt+AEA-clarknet.clark.net+AD4-...
> +AD4-Thus spoke 'Droid (afmn+AEA-netcomuk.co.uk):
>
>
> I keeping get Kira and Ivanova confused... who's who?
Ivanovas the tough one. Kiras the one that keeps crying. :)
--
Graham Kennedy
Dan Ridenhour
Jeff Barrus <orp...@wam.umd.edu> wrote in article
<649ovm$t...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>...
I agree that the shows were developed separately but... the idea that JMS
made up the B5
story arc to steal views from DS9 is way thin. The B5 story was around a
few years
before DS9 was even produced, JMS just took a while selling the idea. If
anything the spacestation setting hurt B5 initially as alot of folks
thought it was a DS9 ripoff.
>
> I just can't believe how positively crazy you people are. It's
> television, not a religion. Entertainment. All these conspiracies about
> Paramount ripping off B5 are just ridiculous -- why would that do
> something like that? It's only television! They already had a Universe
to
> build on, and DS9 fits naturally in it. Why would their writers, who are
> perfectly capable, need to rip off JMS? I've watched both shows, and the
> similarities really are thin coincidences. They're very, very,
different.
The shows are different, but I believe and think that Majel Roddenberry,
etc. would agree that DS9 has been influenced by B5. The recent DS9 story
arc is an excellent example of this, for the first time in the history of
Trek (TOS,TNG,DS9,Voy) a multi-episode (not just a two parter) story was
portrayed.
"Are not we all Influenced by the actions of others" Intersections in real
Time (B5)
Additionally 'The Cisco' taking his ship into the wormhole sacrificing
himself for the greater good is alot like Sheridan 'The One' taking his
ship to the Shadow Homeworld and bringing it down upon a shadow city (which
he was in) sacrificing himself for the greater good.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
>
Franklin Hummel
In article <649ovm$t...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>,
Jeff Barrus <orp...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
>
>I just can't believe how positively crazy you people are. It's
>television, not a religion. Entertainment. All these conspiracies about
>Paramount ripping off B5 are just ridiculous -- why would that do
>something like that? It's only television! They already had a Universe to
Ask Art Buckwald about the movie COMING TO AMERICA.
Charles E. Rick Taylor IV
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:09:39 +0000, Graham Kennedy
<gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote (in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5):
:Ivanovas the tough one. Kiras the one that keeps crying. :)
Oh, so it was *Kira* that got hooked up to the deus ex machina by good
ol' Marcus!
Damn, now I *am* confused!
--
__ ___ _ _ _ | >>>>> cha...@innova.nouce <<<<<
|_)o _ |/ | |_|\_/| / \|_) | REPLACE "nouce" with "net" to mail me!
| \||_ |\ | | | | |_\_/| \ | We got the MRxL, and spammers got NONE
John W. Kennedy
In <HBeachBabe-ya023580001211970012020001@news>, HBeac...@spamtrek.aol.com (Désirée) writes:
>Hollywood has a long history of similar projects coming out simultaneously.
>Generally (and the same applies to B5/DS9) it means *nothing*. The
>development time involved in any tv show/movie project pretty much assures
>that both were conceived seperately.
In general, you have a good point.
In the particular case of Babylon 5 vs. Deep Space 9, however, things are
a bit suspicious.
JMS started work on Babylon 5 in 1986. He shopped it around to every
Hollywood studio, including Paramount, so Paramount _did_ have access
some years earlier to the original pilot and some of the series plans.
Both are about space stations.
Both stations are one-of-a-kind.
Both have (at first) commanding officers (with rank Commander),
previously traumatized in a major war.
Both have feisty female XO's.
Both pilots involve some kind of shape shifter.
Both commanders have an unexpected messianic role to an alien
culture.
Both stations are located right beside a space-bending portal.
Both stations have trade, diplomatic, and military significance.
Both stations have casinos and thinly-disguised prostitution.
Both shows were publicised as "Casablanca in space".
In initial plans, both of the feisty female XO's were traitors.
(Takashima was programmed by a black Psi-Corps op. The
originally intended XO of DS9 was Ro Laren.)
Both have names ending with numbers.
Robert H. Wolfe
Gary J. Weiner wrote:
>
> Robert H. Wolfe wrote:
> >
> > One wonders when people will give this tired bullshit
> > a rest. Nobody stole nothing from nobody. Even JMS
> > admits that now (or at least I'm pretty sure I read
> > something that said he no longer believed DS9 swiped
> > from B5... I've never heard him say anything at all
> > on the subject in person).
>
> Well, he's said plenty about it online. Here are some recent
> CIS postings and an old usenet post culled from DejaNews.
Gary goes on to provide a number of quotes from
Straczynski in which he continues to more or less
promelgate his "Evil Paramount executives influenced
DS9 to make it more like B5" theory.
The quote I'd seen that made me think he was dropping
this crap was included:
>...if you're going to be fair you *have* to allow for
> the possibility of simultaneous, independent creation. So I'm fairly
> sanguine about it, as much as can be, anyway.
Now in other quotes, he seems to be sticking to his theory,
though I have to say I have no way to know for certain if the
postings are genuine. Let's say they are. Hell, I understand
why JMS is upset. This happened to me once too. An episode of a
certain TV show bore a striking resemblence to one of my spec
features, one that was under consideration at the studio that produced
the TV show.
My wife in particular was _convinced_ they'd ripped off my script.
On the other hand, I've seen so many instances of parrellel
creation over the years that I couldn't get that riled up about it.
There're some pitches that I've heard at DS9 from dozens of
different writers, and I know they aren't stealing from each other.
People have similar ideas. So what? Execution is everything.
But to address JMS's point by point comparison:
> DS9 B5
> Space station locale Space station locale
A logical evolution of a space-based franchise, in both cases.
How do you do a space show and be "different" in 1991? Put
it on a space station.
> Wormhole for transportation Jumpgate for transportation
Actually DS9 uses warp 99% of the time. B5 uses jumpgates as
an alternative to warp. DS9 uses the wormhole as a shortcut
to one particular region of space, in a technique that had
already been used extensively in at least one TNG episode.
> CO is of Commander rank CO is of Commander rank
Again, a logical way of distinguishing a new show from TNG
> Female 2nd in command Female 2nd in command
Just like in the first Star Trek pilot thirty years ago. Not
exactly an innovation.
Let's try this...
Female XO is an alien Female XO is human
Female XO is in foreign military Female XO is in Earthfleet
service sometimes at odds with just like CO
Starfleet
Female XO is former terrorist Female XO has no character
to speak of and will be
replaced after the pilot
I admit, they both got tits, but the resemblence pretty
much ends there.
> Promenade Zocalo
Mos Eisley space port. Also, DS9's a hell of a lot more
invested in the Promenade than B5 is in the Zocalo. At
least three of DS9's main characters are based on the
Promenade, vs. none for B5.
> CO is scarred by recent conflict CO scarred by recent conflict
Yeah. Ahab was too. I could do the same point by point on
Sisko and Sinclair?/Sheridan?/whatever as I did on Kira and
Tamlyn Tomita's character, but I think you've got the idea.
Let's just do one:
CO is black, single father CO is whitest man in television
struggling to raise a teenage son
That pretty much sums it up.
> Shapechanger in pilot Shapechanger in pilot
Morphing was a hot technology at the time. Everyone was looking
for a way to use it after the success of Terminator 2. It's no
surprise both jms and Piller & Berman chose to take advantage of
it.
> Female 2nd defends against Female 2nd defends against
> attack fleet at end attack fleet at end
Yeah. Both attacks occur in space too. I can barely remember the
B5 pilot, but I don't recall any resemblence between the two incidences.
Where was the B5 C.O. at the time? Was he suspended in limbo talking
to god-like being in a wormhole? Did the god-like beings take the
forms of his friends and family? If so, maybe jms has a case.
> Series name ends in number Series name ends in number
So did Blake's Seven... and Thunderbirds 72 for that matter.
Gary Anderson should sue.
> DS9 for diplomacy/business B5 for diplomacy/business
DS9 contains an oxygen nitrogen B5 contains an oxygen nitrogen
atmosphere atmosphere.
JMS is reaching here.
> CO's initials are J.S. CO's initials are J.S.
Last time I checked, Benjamin started with a "B." And we tried
endlessly to get Michael to change Sisko's last name. _No one_
liked it but him, huge tv western fan that he is. Unless...
Hey, maybe it happened like this...
MICHAEL
And the lead character's name is Benjamin Tanner.
Paramount executives check their notes.
PARAMOUNT EXEC
Tanner, Tanner. I don't know, Mike. It's
not silibant enough. How about...
(double checking)
Something starting with the letter "S."
RICK
Sampson? Smith?
MICHAEL
Sisko?
PARAMOUNT EXEC
Sisko. Perfect. Bwah-hah-hahahahaha!
The Paramount Exec twirls his moustache. His nefarious
plan is one step closer to fruition.
Yeah, that must've been it.
Not.
Robert Wolfe
Franklin Hummel
In article <3468c...@news1.ibm.net>, John W. Kennedy
>
>In the particular case of Babylon 5 vs. Deep Space 9, however, things are
>a bit suspicious.
>JMS started work on Babylon 5 in 1986. He shopped it around to every
>Hollywood studio, including Paramount, so Paramount _did_ have access
>some years earlier to the original pilot and some of the series plans.
>
>Both are about space stations.
>Both stations are one-of-a-kind.
>Both have (at first) commanding officers (with rank Commander),
>previously traumatized in a major war.
>Both have feisty female XO's.
>Both pilots involve some kind of shape shifter.
>Both commanders have an unexpected messianic role to an alien
>culture.
>Both stations are located right beside a space-bending portal.
>Both stations have trade, diplomatic, and military significance.
>Both stations have casinos and thinly-disguised prostitution.
>Both shows were publicised as "Casablanca in space".
>In initial plans, both of the feisty female XO's were traitors.
>(Takashima was programmed by a black Psi-Corps op. The
>originally intended XO of DS9 was Ro Laren.)
>Both have names ending with numbers.
Why, what coincidences! Surely this was just chance!
Robert H. Wolfe
Kroagnon wrote:
>
> Franklin Hummel wrote in message ...
> >>Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
> >
> >
> > It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
>
>
Actually, it's completely false. DS9 is a bandicoot,
and B5 is a rat. They may look a lot alike, but they're
not related (beyond all being mammals... unlike Hummel).
Robert H. Wolfe
credible eyewitness
Robert H. Wolfe
Franklin Hummel wrote:
>
> In article <3467A3...@cairns.net.au>,
> Evan Burton <ev...@cairns.net.au> wrote:
> > Apart from legal fandangling, and creative disputes, does it really
> >matter which came first?
>
>
And falsely accusing someone of theft who committed no crime,
despite direct knowledge to the contrary, is called slander
and libel.
> Why did not JMS press charges?
Why don't Michael Piller and Rick Berman press charges against
you? Not worth the trouble I suppose.
> Because if he had, it would have
> been a major uphill battle taking years of time and lots and lots of
> money and production of BABYLON 5 would have stopped while all the
> legal claims were being settled.
Not true. He could've found someone to press charges on contingency,
for a nice fat cut of the settlement, if he thought he really
had a case. Production on both shows probably would've
continued without a hitch. But, since Str. didn't press charges, I'm
assuming he didn't really have a case anyone thought he could win and
he knew pressing charges would only open him up to a very justifiable
Defamation of Character counter-suit. The matter was dropped, both
shows were produced,* and everyone lived happily ever after.
Except Frank, who's got nothing better to do than bandy about
slanderous and unsupportable tripe.
Robert Wolfe
Don't take my word for it, I was just there.
*sort of like Volcano and Dante's Peak, but with less lava
David
Ray Martinez wrote:
>
> "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> <nasty ranting and raving about B5 snipped>
>
> Shouldn't you be picking on Hercules or Xena? Those are the shows that
> are clobbering DS9, not B5. You don't even work for DS9 anymore, if
> I remember correctly. So why are you so angry? Chill.
>
> -Ray
He's angry because he believes someone is passing along false
information. If I was Mr. Wolfe I'd be upset about it even if I wasn't
on the show any longer.
Robert H. Wolfe
Ray Martinez wrote:
>
> "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> <nasty ranting and raving about B5 snipped>
>
> Shouldn't you be picking on Hercules or Xena? Those are the
> shows that are clobbering DS9, not B5.
It ain't about ratings. It's about the truth.
> You don't even work for DS9 anymore, if
> I remember correctly.
True. Which means maybe you should take what I'm saying
seriously, since I'm clearly not doing it for the "good
of the Franchise" or any such b.s.
> So why are you so angry? Chill.
I'm angry because people are accusing me and people I've
worked with and respect of being thieves, completely
without justification. If someone accused you or
your friends of a crime you didn't commit, I doubt
very much you'd "chill" either.
Wolfe
Shek Leung
> AND B-5 sux so how could a show as great as DS9 be ripped off it?
EXCUSE ME!!?!?!?
Babylon 5 and DS9 are both good shows, and I enjoy both, though I
favor B5. Whichever one you favor is your business, but simply
saying that a show 'sux' when you probably haven't even given
it a chance is just ridiculous.
-Phalanx
Hiero Bosch
>In the particular case of Babylon 5 vs. Deep Space 9, however, things are
>a bit suspicious.
>
>JMS started work on Babylon 5 in 1986. He shopped it around to every
>Hollywood studio, including Paramount, so Paramount _did_ have access
>some years earlier to the original pilot and some of the series plans.
>
>Both are about space stations.
NYPD Blue is about police officers. Picket Fences was about sheriff
officers. Walker Texas Ranger is about Texas Rangers. Nash Bridges..
.actually, I've never seen that.
>Both stations are one-of-a-kind.
And by george they're so one of a kind they have nothing alike with each
other! Next thing you know you'll be arguing "the Enterprise was a special
ship." Yes, it was. It's called TV!
>Both have (at first) commanding officers (with rank Commander),
>previously traumatized in a major war.
And Picard lost the stargazer. It's called "backstory." Usually you want
your characters to have them. Tell me, did Sinclair lose his wife at the
Battle of the Line?
>Both have feisty female XO's.
As opposed to saucy female XO's? I didn't think Kagashima was that feisty,
and anyway they have nothing in common. It's called "balancing the male
with the female to be PC." On of the best ways to do that is have a feisty
woman.
>Both pilots involve some kind of shape shifter.
And believe it or not, shapeshifters have been on Trek about five times
before. I've seen them in video games long before I saw them on B5.
>Both commanders have an unexpected messianic role to an alien
>culture.
Ignoring how truly stupid the Valen plot turned out to be... no I can't.
The whole premise of the humanist captain meeting the alien culture (by the
way, Bajor was in picture way before JMS came along) is a lot better than
Sinclair being the organizer of the Grey Council because he has a Minbari
soul or some other impossible crap. If JMS was copied, he was copied and
got his ass kicked in the good idea department.
>Both stations are located right beside a space-bending portal.
And both are near planets. Is Epsilon like Bajor?
>Both stations have trade, diplomatic, and military significance.
Both stations have internal lighting and restaurants
>Both stations have casinos and thinly-disguised prostitution.
Hmm.... funny. Downbelow isn't even remotely like Quarks. Both shows also
have command centers!
>Both shows were publicised as "Casablanca in space".
So Paramount also ripped off the ads? What does this have to do with
anything?
>In initial plans, both of the feisty female XO's were traitors.
>(Takashima was programmed by a black Psi-Corps op. The
>originally intended XO of DS9 was Ro Laren.)
Funny... Takashima was programmed, and Ro of her own free will *after* DS9
started betrayed Picard
>Both have names ending with numbers.
Hill Street and NYPD also both share "Blue." Considering that DS stations
existed before JMS came along, I see no conflict.
'Droid
Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
>
> Thus spoke 'Droid (af...@netcomuk.co.uk):
> > There is nothing in either show that I haven't read in science-fiction
> > that predates both.
>
> This is true. It's just when two SF TV shows premier,
> both about space stations in disputed space near a
> stargate with a female second in command and a male
> commander who is to become a religious leader, well,
Firstly, B5 isn't in disputed space. As far as I know, no-one has
disputed the ownership of that particular system. Female seconds are
very common with a male commander. I even seen the the religious leader
angle too. Even the combination above is not original, although two TV
series almost coincident could well be more than a coincidence. On this
I know nothing more than net rumour, which is very unreliable.
'Droid
Désirée
In article <3468A6...@netcomuk.co.uk>, af...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
-> Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
-> >
-> > Thus spoke 'Droid (af...@netcomuk.co.uk):
-> > > There is nothing in either show that I haven't read in science-fiction
-> > > that predates both.
-> >
-> > This is true. It's just when two SF TV shows premier,
-> > both about space stations in disputed space near a
-> > stargate with a female second in command and a male
-> > commander who is to become a religious leader, well,
-> > one wonders...
->
-> Firstly, B5 isn't in disputed space. As far as I know, no-one has
-> disputed the ownership of that particular system. Female seconds are
-> very common with a male commander. I even seen the the religious leader
-> angle too. Even the combination above is not original, although two TV
-> series almost coincident could well be more than a coincidence. On this
-> I know nothing more than net rumour, which is very unreliable.
->
-> 'Droid
I'm not a B5 viewer, but IIRC, Sheridan was *not* the original commander
anyway, which means Sisko pre-dates himanyway. If anything, Sherisan is a
rip-off of Sisko, not vice-versa.
Désirée
Désirée
In article <649o3r$t...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>, orp...@wam.umd.edu (Jeff
Barrus) wrote:
-> Franklin Hummel (hum...@world.std.com) wrote:
-> : In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
-> : >Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
-> :
-> :
-> : It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
-> :
-> :
-> : -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
->
-> Now, where have I heard that one before? Man, get over it! There is no
-> evidence. None!
->
-> The similiarties people draw upon are tenuous at best. Both shows are set
-> on a station. Both shows feature characters with messianic traits. Hate
-> to say this, but virtually every SF series in the history of the genre has
-> a messiah character. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer is almost a messiah.
->
-> -Jeff
And Chicago Hope is a rip-off of ER
And Volcano was a rip-off of Dante's Peak
and Wyatt Earp was a rip-off of Tombstone
and Blown Away was a rip-off of Speed
Hollywood has a long history of similar projects coming out simultaneously.
Generally (and the same applies to B5/DS9) it means *nothing*. The
development time involved in any tv show/movie project pretty much assures
that both were conceived seperately.
Désirée
Désirée
In article <EJHz5...@world.std.com>, hum...@world.std.com (Franklin
Hummel) wrote:
-> In article <649ovm$t...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>,
-> Jeff Barrus <orp...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
-> >
-> >I just can't believe how positively crazy you people are. It's
-> >television, not a religion. Entertainment. All these conspiracies about
-> >Paramount ripping off B5 are just ridiculous -- why would that do
-> >something like that? It's only television! They already had a Universe to
-> [ text deleted ]
->
->
-> Ask Art Buckwald about the movie COMING TO AMERICA.
->
Yup, and after JMS sues Paramount *and wins* for copyright infringement,
then maybe I'll believe that intellectual theft occured. Otherwise, it's
just a case of GMTA.
Désirée
Nyrath the nearly wise
Thus spoke Désirée (HBeac...@spamtrek.aol.com):
> I'm not a B5 viewer, but IIRC, Sheridan was *not* the original commander
> anyway, which means Sisko pre-dates himanyway. If anything, Sherisan is a
> rip-off of Sisko, not vice-versa.
Well, I respectfully disagree.
You see, the original commander of B5 was Sinclair.
Sinclair became the "messiah" to the Minbari,
as chronicled in the episode WAR WITHOUT END.
Consult the Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 for details.
* A B S I T * I N V I D I A * V E R B O ** I D E M * S O N A N S *
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| WINCHELL CHUNG http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/home.html |
| Nyrath the nearly wise nyr...@clark.net |
+---_---+---------------------[ SURREAL SAGE SEZ: ]--------------------------+
| /_\ | Up shit pulsar without a gravity generator. |
| <(*)> | |
|/_/|\_\| |
| //|\\ | |
+///|\\\+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Galina Bokser
> : >Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
> :
> :
> : -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
>
> Now, where have I heard that one before? Man, get over it! There is no
>
> The similiarties people draw upon are tenuous at best. Both shows are
set
has
>
Ray Martinez
"Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
<nasty ranting and raving about B5 snipped>
Shouldn't you be picking on Hercules or Xena? Those are the shows that
are clobbering DS9, not B5. You don't even work for DS9 anymore, if
I remember correctly. So why are you so angry? Chill.
-Ray
Ford A. Thaxton
Franklin Hummel, who really needs to get out on Saturday Nights
> >my apologises in advance.
>
>
>
> been a major uphill battle taking years of time and lots and lots of
> money and production of BABYLON 5 would have stopped while all the legal
> claims were being settled.
>
>
>
> --
Mr. Hummel, that's not how it works in the real world of Hollywood.
JMS doesn't owe B5, WARNER BROS does.
And if they thought for two seconds that PARAMOUNT had "Stole"
ANYTHING from B5 they would have been in court in a new york
minute.
Lawsuits are filed at a drop of a hat in Hollywood everyday, no sane
human being buys this crap.
THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER TO SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENTS.
Now if you can offer some, please do so and send it to the head of
WARNER BROS legal business affairs I'm sure they'll be more then
happy to review it.
Regards
Ford A. Thaxton
Evan Burton
I've just discovered another amazing coincidence between B5 and
DS9..... the're both good!
Johnny Torch - Flame On!
Evan Burton
I've just discovered another amazing coincidence between B5 and
Bobby Vee
"Hiero Bosch" <pe...@rhodes.edu> wrote:
>I keeping get Kira and Ivanova confused... who's who?
Kira's the one who's pelvic bone is so prominent she looks like she is
suffering from malnutrition :(
Bobby Vee.
Nor greater madness than in the minds of the sane.
Troy-...@psu.edu
In article <HBeachBabe-ya023580001211970003330001@news>,
HBeac...@spamtrek.aol.com (Désirée) wrote:
>
> I'm not a B5 viewer, but IIRC, Sheridan was *not* the original commander
> anyway, which means Sisko pre-dates himanyway. If anything, Sherisan is a
> rip-off of Sisko, not vice-versa.
That could be, but Sheridan is not the religious leader. The original
commander, Sinclair, was the religious leader aka Valen.
Just for extra knowledge. DS9 made its first appearance in 1992 in
various publications. B5's first appearance was in 1990 in a book called
"Othersyde" So, Babylon 5 predates Deep Space Nine.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Robert Oliver
> Put it on pirate vessels.
Doubtful that it would work in Star Trek. There had to be a strong
Starfleet presence.
> Put it on the side of the "bad guys".
See above.
> Base
> it around a planet.
Well, DS9 originally WAS around Bajor, but moved later on.
> Do it in a period long before or long after the
> 22-24th centuries.
Economics probably demanded that DS9 be placed in the same timeframe as
TNG and later Voyager (able to use the same, uniforms, props, starships,
and even characters at times).
> B5 was pitched to Paramount in the late '80's. DS9 first hit the
> rumor mill in 1991 at the earliest.
>
> Food for thought.
Not really. Why is there so much of a hang up on "a series set on a
space station." Heck, it's not THAT original or groundbreaking of an
idea.
> >Again, a logical way of distinguishing a new show from TNG
>
> But not the only way. The station could have had a Bajoran CO, with a
> Starfleet liasion, instead of vice versa. It might be run by (reality
> help us) a politician, with Starfleet crew.
But it wasn't....big deal. The Starfleet presence had to be substantial.
> >Mos Eisley space port. Also, DS9's a hell of a lot more
> >invested in the Promenade than B5 is in the Zocalo. At
> >least three of DS9's main characters are based on the
> >Promenade, v. none for B5.
>
> And that last matters because...?
Because it is different, and that's the whole point of this--pointing
out differences?
> Of course, when that recent conflict happened to be a massive battle
> against a nearly invincible enemy that nearly wiped out their people
> in both cases...
In Star Trek's case the Borg incident was already there...why make
something up and not use the Borg for continuity's sake? Helps to mesh
DS9 in with established Trek history.
> Both series' numbers are designations for space stations.
So? I've heard that DS9 was only a temp name that was later accepted.
> Of course, B.S.'s son just _happens_ to have the initials J.S.
So? Is this a major point of contention? What's the big deal. The poor
kid's name is Jake...has a nice ring to it.
--
Robert Oliver (rol...@mint.net)
Big Country: Steeltown (http://www.mint.net/~roliver/bc-mint.htm)
A Guide to the Star Trek Universe
(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6053/)
Robert H. Wolfe
John W. Kennedy wrote:
>
> In <3467E9...@ix.netcom.com>, "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >And the truth is that
> >Michael Piller and Rick Berman made up DS9 all
> >by themselves.
>
> With no "help" from Paramount executives?
>
> Don't make me laugh. In this modern world of moronic
> suits running everything, even engineers and scientists
> can't get anything done without executive "help", even
> when (as with Challenger) people get killed.
You'd be surprised how little interference DS9 gets from
the Paramount execs. Especially early on, they had a
pretty hands-off attitude. About once a year (during the
summer), Rick, Michael, and Ira would meet with them
to discuss their concerns for the upcoming seasons. But
at the stages of initial creation, their imput was very light.
I think the biggest influence they had was in the casting
process, where they excercised a veto right.
The bottom line is no one said, "Create a show about a space
station by a wormhole featuring a C.O. whose rank is commander
and whose last name starts with 'S.'" In fact, I believe
Paramount was somewhat slow to embrace the "station" concept
as they were concerned about having a ST franchise where
our characters couldn't go anywhere.
I do remember a series of specific adjustments they
wanted after season one, but Ira et al talked them out
of them, promising to address their concerns in other
ways.
Robert
John Paulus
Désirée (HBeac...@spamtrek.aol.com) wrote:
: In article <649o3r$t...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>, orp...@wam.umd.edu (Jeff
: Barrus) wrote:
: -> Franklin Hummel (hum...@world.std.com) wrote:
: -> : In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net> wrote:
: -> : >Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
: -> :
: -> :
: -> : It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
: -> :
: -> :
: -> : -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
: ->
: -> Now, where have I heard that one before? Man, get over it! There is no
: -> evidence. None!
: ->
: -> The similiarties people draw upon are tenuous at best. Both shows are set
: -> on a station. Both shows feature characters with messianic traits. Hate
: -> to say this, but virtually every SF series in the history of the genre has
: -> a messiah character. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer is almost a messiah.
: ->
: -> -Jeff
: And Chicago Hope is a rip-off of ER
As was "Medicine Ball" on FOX (but died out early!)
: And Volcano was a rip-off of Dante's Peak
: and Wyatt Earp was a rip-off of Tombstone
: and Blown Away was a rip-off of Speed
There are a bunch of NBC shows spawned by "Friends" (which, some say, was
actually inspired by FOX's "Living Single")
: Hollywood has a long history of similar projects coming out simultaneously.
: Generally (and the same applies to B5/DS9) it means *nothing*. The
: development time involved in any tv show/movie project pretty much assures
: that both were conceived seperately.
It DOES mean something....that someone has caught wind of a fantastic idea
and wants to make money off of it. They might be able to do it better,
though not likely.
: Désirée
i & many fans might not have liked the origins of one or more of the series,
but believe that both shows are now quite independent of each other and each
offers betters stories than Voyager or most other "sci-fi" shows.
--jp--
--
j.p. paulus 4625 N. Kenmore Avenue #2
sha...@ripco.com Chicago IL 60640-5024
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~shadowm/index.html 773/784-5640
********************** GO GOD!!!!! ************************
Désirée
In article <64dela$d...@camel15.mindspring.com>, Ray Martinez
<wave...@mindspring.com> wrote:
-> "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
-> >Ray Martinez wrote:
-> >>
-> >> "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
-> >>
-> >> <nasty ranting and raving about B5 snipped>
-> >>
-> >> Shouldn't you be picking on Hercules or Xena? Those are the
-> >> shows that are clobbering DS9, not B5.
-> >
-> >It ain't about ratings. It's about the truth.
-> >
-> >> You don't even work for DS9 anymore, if
-> >> I remember correctly.
-> >
-> >True. Which means maybe you should take what I'm saying
-> >seriously, since I'm clearly not doing it for the "good
-> >of the Franchise" or any such b.s.
-> >
-> >> So why are you so angry? Chill.
-> >
-> >I'm angry because people are accusing me and people I've
-> >worked with and respect of being thieves, completely
-> >without justification. If someone accused you or
-> >your friends of a crime you didn't commit, I doubt
-> >very much you'd "chill" either.
->
->
-> well excuse the fuck outta me!!!
-> jerk!!!
->
->
-> -Ray
hmm.. he defends himself against your attack, proves that he has a point
and a reason to be upset and he's the 'jerk' Great come-back. That's
really showing him! Boy aren't you witty!
Let me know when you progress beyond the 6th grade...
Désirée
->
->
->
Désirée
In article <64dau4$5i3$2...@gail.ripco.com>, sha...@ripco.com (John Paulus) wrote:
-> Désirée (HBeac...@spamtrek.aol.com) wrote:
-> : In article <649o3r$t...@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>, orp...@wam.umd.edu (Jeff
-> : Barrus) wrote:
->
-> : -> Franklin Hummel (hum...@world.std.com) wrote:
-> : -> : In article <8790362...@dejanews.com>, <fals...@webtv.net>
wrote:
-> : -> : >Are Sisko and Sheridan almost too similar?
-> : -> :
-> : -> :
-> : -> : It is because DEEP SPACE NINE was ripped off from BABYLON 5.
-> : -> :
-> : -> :
-> : -> : -- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
-> : ->
-> : -> Now, where have I heard that one before? Man, get over it! There is no
-> : -> evidence. None!
-> : ->
-> : -> The similiarties people draw upon are tenuous at best. Both shows
are set
-> : -> on a station. Both shows feature characters with messianic traits.
Hate
-> : -> to say this, but virtually every SF series in the history of the
genre has
-> : -> a messiah character. Even Buffy the Vampire Slayer is almost a messiah.
-> : ->
-> : -> -Jeff
->
-> : And Chicago Hope is a rip-off of ER
-> As was "Medicine Ball" on FOX (but died out early!)
->
-> : And Volcano was a rip-off of Dante's Peak
-> : and Wyatt Earp was a rip-off of Tombstone
-> : and Blown Away was a rip-off of Speed
->
-> There are a bunch of NBC shows spawned by "Friends" (which, some say, was
-> actually inspired by FOX's "Living Single")
Plenty of shows are "spawed" by successful shows. This different from
seperate & simultaneous development as happened with Chicago Hope & ER or
Dante's Peak & Volcano.
->
->
-> : Hollywood has a long history of similar projects coming out
simultaneously.
-> : Generally (and the same applies to B5/DS9) it means *nothing*. The
-> : development time involved in any tv show/movie project pretty much assures
-> : that both were conceived seperately.
->
-> It DOES mean something....that someone has caught wind of a fantastic idea
-> and wants to make money off of it. They might be able to do it better,
-> though not likely.
->
It has often been told to me in scriptwriting classes/seminars is not to
worry excessively so about people "stealing" your ideas/concepts because no
one one else can or will do it the same way you will.
->
-> : Désirée
->
-> i & many fans might not have liked the origins of one or more of the series,
-> but believe that both shows are now quite independent of each other and each
-> offers betters stories than Voyager or most other "sci-fi" shows.
Uh, both shows were *always* quite independant of each other. I didn't
realize that that had been proven otherwise.
->
-> --jp--
->
-> --
Désirée- saving you bandwidth by not including a sig file
Hiero Bosch
John W. Kennedy wrote in message <3469d...@news1.ibm.net>...
>
>("Much better"? Sorry, but when it comes to
>Art-with-a-capital-A, DS9's not even in B5's
>league. DS9 is an OK TV show, better than
>most, but it's not something that British
>universities are going to sponsor conferences
>about, unless as a pop-culture phenomenon.)
I hope to God there isn't conference because it's a TV show. B5 is an
interesting idea and it's so chock full of historical references that I
literally die when I catch a cool one, but it is terribly written. That
simple. Try all you want, but no conference can explain away Sheridan
mysteriously giggling at breakfast. It's just a bad scene. JMS needs to be
the exec and let a real artist do the work for him.
Robert H. Wolfe
> >>
> >
> >> So why are you so angry? Chill.
> >
>
Okay. You're excused.
> jerk!!!
Was that "me, jerk," referring to you? Or "me. Jerk."
Referring to me. I'm afraid I got confused by all
the !!!!!. It's so difficult to be properly
insulted when I can't see your face contorting with
rage.
Ummm, Chill, dude.
Robert
Robert H. Wolfe
> RHW>the Paramount execs. Especially early on, they had a
> RHW>pretty hands-off attitude.
>
> And later? I'm specifically curious about the beginning of Season 5.
> Rumor Central said that you guys had planned a multi-episode Klingon
> War arc to open the season, but that the "Paramount suits" vetoed the
> idea. Can you shed any light on this?
Paramount was never found of multi-part episodes.
Robert
Robert H. Wolfe
Michael Johnson wrote:
>
>
> Understandable. But i thought the contention has always been that the
> it was the suits and not the people who ultimately ended up working on
> the show that did the deed?
>
>
Suits don't create shows. Suits don't write pilots.
Suits don't write episodes. If someone is accusing
another writer of stealing, they should have the
guts to come right out and say it. When someone
says "DS9 is ripping off B5," they're saying "the
DS9 writers are thieves." There's just no pussyfooting
around it.
Robert Wolfe
David
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >True. Which means maybe you should take what I'm saying
> >
> >
> >I'm angry because people are accusing me and people I've
> >worked with and respect of being thieves, completely
> >without justification. If someone accused you or
> >your friends of a crime you didn't commit, I doubt
> >very much you'd "chill" either.
>
> well excuse the fuck outta me!!!
>
> -Ray
>
It seems the jerk is you, Ray.
David
Evan Burton wrote:
>
> I've just discovered another amazing coincidence between B5 and
>
> Johnny Torch - Flame On!
Ain't that the truth.
John W. Kennedy
In <3467E9...@ix.netcom.com>, "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>And the truth is that
>Michael Piller and Rick Berman made up DS9 all
>by themselves.
With no "help" from Paramount executives?
Don't make me laugh. In this modern world of moronic
suits running everything, even engineers and scientists
can't get anything done without executive "help", even
when (as with Challenger) people get killed.
>And as for the rest of us... I've
>seen a grand total of about 3 episodes of B5, and
>I think I've watched more of it than anyone else
>on staff, past or present. The only time I changed
>anything in a DS9 script because of a B5 episode
>was to _remove_ a coincidental similarity (changing
>the Gray Order to the Obsidian Order). Other than
>that, we ignored them and I'm pretty sure they
>ignored us.
JMS has said that from the beginning. His _only_
claim has been that Paramount executives gently
steered Pillar and Berman into creating a series
format that would be sufficiently similar to "Babylon 5"
to create confusion in the market, and frighten
Warner (temporarily successfully) into thinking
that "Babylon 5" would have no niche. In particular,
he has always said very plainly that he believes
Pillar and Berman to be wholly innocent. He has
also gone on record as saying that he believes
that Trek's current writers would be capable
of doing much better work, did not Paramount
make them "type with mittens on" for the sake
of the Franchise.
("Much better"? Sorry, but when it comes to
Art-with-a-capital-A, DS9's not even in B5's
league. DS9 is an OK TV show, better than
most, but it's not something that British
universities are going to sponsor conferences
about, unless as a pop-culture phenomenon.)
Any allegations about DS9 swiping from B5 after
making the pilot script have been made solely
by individual fans, and are generally not taken
seriously by more than a few fans for more than
a few days, apart from the general belief that
B5 has been of considerable importance in
nudging US TV toward long continuities, if only
because B5 has shown that having each and
every script delivered in final form weeks before
shooting is money in the bank. (It was interesting
to read Robert Culp's remark in the latest TV
Guide that having scripts in advance was the
reason that "I Spy" would afford to shoot on
worldwide location; he went on to say that
you could never get that today....)
Hiero Bosch
Ray Martinez wrote in message +ADw-64dela+ACQ-dfo+AEA-camel15.mindspring.com+AD4-...
+AD4-
+AD4- well excuse the fuck outta me+ACEAIQAh-
+AD4- jerk+ACEAIQAh-
+AD4-
That's a pretty pathetic come back. Pull up your diapers and try again,
+ACI-jerk+ACIAIQ-
Platinum Dragon
Evan Burton <ev...@cairns.net.au> said to a First One:
>I've just discovered another amazing coincidence between B5 and
>DS9..... the're both good!
That they are, that they are...
PD <*> "Knowledge is power. Knowledge to the people."
Bug me at:
E-mail: ten.mocniw at woklaibt
IRC (DALnet): #Z'ha'dum, #teenz_love, #aol-sucks
WWW: http:\\www.wincom.net\tbialkow
ICQ: 3198979
Platinum Dragon
"Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> said to a First One:
>And falsely accusing someone of theft who committed no crime,
>despite direct knowledge to the contrary, is called slander
>and libel.
I say you stole that sock I lost in the dryer three weeks back. I
don't have any proof, but you're a convenient target.
Sue me. I dare you. Ten'll get you twenty the case would be thrown
out in a minute.
>> Why did not JMS press charges?
>
>Why don't Michael Piller and Rick Berman press charges against
>you? Not worth the trouble I suppose.
Well, there's this minor thing about causing actual public damage to
one's reputation before such charges could be taken seriously I
suppose.
>Except Frank, who's got nothing better to do than bandy about
>slanderous and unsupportable tripe.
And Rob, who apparently has more than enough time to read Frank's
posts and reply to them.
starcro1
Platinum Dragon wrote in message <346a8381....@news.wincom.net>...
>"Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> said to a First One:
>
>>And falsely accusing someone of theft who committed no crime,
>>despite direct knowledge to the contrary, is called slander
>>and libel.
>
>I say you stole that sock I lost in the dryer three weeks back. I
>don't have any proof, but you're a convenient target.
>
>Sue me. I dare you. Ten'll get you twenty the case would be thrown
>out in a minute.
>
To borrow a recently overused line: what's your point? This is difference
between a lie and a stupid lie.
Your unprovable charges are an attempt to create negative public relations
for a television program that spends million of dollars per episode on
production. It employs hundreds of people, and the creative staff have
staked their careers. If they consider you a realistic threat, they *will*
stop you.
On the other hand, nobody cares if you lose $5 over a pair of socks.
I suspect you merely enjoy making an ass of yourself in public. Which is
your God-given, constitutionally-guaranteed right. Just make sure that the
exercise of your rights don't violate others'.
The fact that some lies are not worth suing over does not make them the
truth.
Ford A. Thaxton
John W. Kennedy wrote:
>
> In <3467E9...@ix.netcom.com>, "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >And the truth is that
> >Michael Piller and Rick Berman made up DS9 all
> >by themselves.
>
> With no "help" from Paramount executives?
>
But by following that exact same logic, the "Suits" at Warner Bros gave
JMS the same kind of "Help" when he was putting B5 together.
Does that trouble you at all.
> Don't make me laugh. In this modern world of moronic
> suits running everything, even engineers and scientists
> can't get anything done without executive "help", even
> when (as with Challenger) people get killed.
>
Kid, you really seem bitter.
You don't seem to have lived in the real world very much.
> >And as for the rest of us... I've
> >seen a grand total of about 3 episodes of B5, and
> >I think I've watched more of it than anyone else
> >on staff, past or present. The only time I changed
> >anything in a DS9 script because of a B5 episode
> >was to _remove_ a coincidental similarity (changing
> >the Gray Order to the Obsidian Order). Other than
> >that, we ignored them and I'm pretty sure they
> >ignored us.
>
> JMS has said that from the beginning. His _only_
> claim has been that Paramount executives gently
> steered Pillar and Berman into creating a series
> format that would be sufficiently similar to "Babylon 5"
> to create confusion in the market, and frighten
> Warner (temporarily successfully) into thinking
> that "Babylon 5" would have no niche. In particular,
> he has always said very plainly that he believes
> Pillar and Berman to be wholly innocent. He has
> also gone on record as saying that he believes
> that Trek's current writers would be capable
> of doing much better work, did not Paramount
> make them "type with mittens on" for the sake
> of the Franchise.
>
This is total bullshit.
In the real world if the copyright owners of "Babylon 5" thought for
two seconds that PARAMOUNT "stole" anything from B5 they'd be in
court in a New York Minute. It wouldn't be JMS's choice, as a matter of
fact he'd have little say in the mattter.
If you can offer any proof to support JMS's claim other then his own
self-serving statements, contact Ken Park, Head of Business Legal
affairs at Warner Bros, I'm sure he'd be interested.
> ("Much better"? Sorry, but when it comes to
> Art-with-a-capital-A, DS9's not even in B5's
> league.
In your highly subjective opinion, which doesn't make it a fact.
DS9 is an OK TV show, better than
> most, but it's not something that British
> universities are going to sponsor conferences
> about, unless as a pop-culture phenomenon.)
>
Only time will tell on that point.
> Any allegations about DS9 swiping from B5 after
> making the pilot script have been made solely
> by individual fans, and are generally not taken
> seriously by more than a few fans for more than
> a few days, apart from the general belief that
> B5 has been of considerable importance in
> nudging US TV toward long continuities, if only
> because B5 has shown that having each and
> every script delivered in final form weeks before
> shooting is money in the bank. (It was interesting
> to read Robert Culp's remark in the latest TV
> Guide that having scripts in advance was the
> reason that "I Spy" would afford to shoot on
> worldwide location; he went on to say that
> you could never get that today....)
I guess you've never heard of "Dr.Who", "St. Elsewhere", "Hill Street
Blues", "Wiseguys",etc.
All of the programs featured long story arches long before B5.
Also have you of the term "Mini-Series"?
aka "Novels for TV".
Regards
Ford A. Thaxton
Hiero Bosch
Platinum Dragon wrote in message <346a84a2....@news.wincom.net>...
>Robert Oliver <rol...@mint.net> said to a First One:
>
>
>Yeah, but there's a good number of congruencies between the shows that
>bear looking at.
Yeah, the famous female XO scandal!
>
>
>My point being, Starfleet doesn't always have to be big man on campus.
For it to be a fan accepted Trek it does
>
>Why make Sisko a war vet in the first place?
It wasn't the war it was losing his wife. There's a difference.
Debra Fran Baker
In <346a84a2....@news.wincom.net> spam...@defeat.internet.spam (Platinum Dragon) writes:
>Robert Oliver <rol...@mint.net> said to a First One:
>>
>>In Star Trek's case the Borg incident was already there...why make
>>something up and not use the Borg for continuity's sake? Helps to mesh
>>DS9 in with established Trek history.
>Why make Sisko a war vet in the first place?
At that point, just like right now, *every* officer that wasn't straight
out of the academy, and a number who were, was a war veteran. The Borg
war used the entire fleet, just as the Dominion war is doing now.
--
One sharp peppercorn is better than a basketful of melons.
-- Tractate Megillah 7A
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Debra Fran Baker dfb...@panix.com
David Serchay
:@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
Distribution:
Shek Leung ("shly...@ix.netcom.com"@popd.ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: > I'm not a B5 viewer, but IIRC, Sheridan was *not* the original
: > commander
: > anyway, which means Sisko pre-dates himanyway. If anything, Sheridan
: > is a
: > rip-off of Sisko, not vice-versa.
: >
: > Désirée
: No, but he was always going to be there. Part of the plan of the B5
: story
: arc was to bring Sheridan in. Besides, the developments of the story
: were there, regardless of what character was placed into it. Sheridan,
: or whoever it would've been, is and always was who we have seen in
: Babylon 5.
OK, but was that in the original pitch that JMS was spreading around. To
listen to some around here, JMS had every plot change and permiatation
ready and presented it at the basic pitch meeting.
Dave
--
David Serchay
a013...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Nina & Akiva Smith
>centered around Starfleet. The 'fleet could make occasional
>appearances in various eps, especially if the show was mainly
>Federation-space based, but you never see enough of the galaxy's Joe
>Six-Packs or small-time merchants.
>
I'd love to see such a thing, but we never will. Starfleet appears to
have been conceived as every adventure-minded kid's ideal outfit to
work for. Besides, Gene Rodenberry had the usual '60s "idealist"
distrust of commerce, which has been a constant of Star Trek writing
ever since. Which is why we get the perennial discussion of what kind
of currency/pay scales/economy in general prevails in the Federation,
and why the Ferengi have never been anything but figures of fun or
stock figures in sermons about the evils of greed. If you have any
interest in market mechanics, or economics in general, extrapolating
Ferengi culture and history would be at least as interesting as for the
militarist Romulans or Klingons. (Think of those historical empires
based more on trade than war, like the 17th-century Netherlands or the
modern USA.) I vaguely remember some DS9 episode in which Jake and Nog
pulled off a business deal and Jake proved to have the far better head
for business; it left me hoping that when Nog opted for Starfleet, Jake
might break his own family mold and start his own company. No, he had
to do something stereotypically "creative" instead, because everyone
knows that Businessmen Are Always The Bad Guys. It gets boring.
nina
'Droid
> jerk!!!
>
> -Ray
What is your problem?
'Droid
Hiero Bosch
Platinum Dragon wrote in message <346a8381....@news.wincom.net>...
>"Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> said to a First One:
>
>
>I say you stole that sock I lost in the dryer three weeks back. I
>don't have any proof, but you're a convenient target.
Did you tell Mr Wolfe where and when you'd be putting your sock? Evidence
suggests that it's probably up your ass. It's what we have rational ground
to base things on, and JMS simply lacks the rational ground to claim DS9
stole his show
You're missing the point anyway. By your own implication in the sock
analogy wild accusations are stupid, but that's JMS is doing. So there.
>
>Sue me. I dare you. Ten'll get you twenty the case would be thrown
>out in a minute.
There's a little difference between your sock and a mass-distributed TV
production
>And Rob, who apparently has more than enough time to read Frank's
>posts and reply to them.
And I have time to read yours, and I have an 8 page paper due tommorrow.
That reminds me... gotta go.
Ford A. Thaxton
Gareth Wilson wrote:
>
> Ford A. Thaxton wrote:
> >
> > In the real world if the copyright owners of "Babylon 5" thought for
> > two seconds that PARAMOUNT "stole" anything from B5 they'd be in
> > court in a New York Minute. It wouldn't be JMS's choice, as a matter of
> > fact he'd have little say in the mattter.
> I await correction.
> --
If you have any doubts, check the copyright notices on the soundtrack
albums,the show it itself,the offically released videos,tee-sheets,etc.
WARNER BROS owes B5.
Period
Regards
Ford A. Thaxto
God of Tapes
>
> > ("Much better"? Sorry, but when it comes to
> > Art-with-a-capital-A, DS9's not even in B5's
> > league.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Art!? Give me a break!
To me, something artistic on television would be like the 60s
OUTER LIMITS, where they were encouraged to play with the visuals, the
lighting or with the scripts that actually had something to say about
the human condition. I was watching THE MICE just the other day. What
a performance by Henry Silva! The speech he gives about killing the
man who was ruining his sister is far superior than, say, Sheridan
trying to rally the planets into an alliance. And what of the classic
scripts by Rod Serling, Charles Beaumont, Richard Matheson, etc. for
TWILIGHT ZONE?
You want art, look back at OL and TWILIGHT ZONE. You aren't going to
find it anywhere on TV now.
recook77
Ray Martinez <wave...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<64b9v8$b...@camel20.mindspring.com>...
> "Robert H. Wolfe" <rhwo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
> <nasty ranting and raving about B5 snipped>
>
>
> Shouldn't you be picking on Hercules or Xena? Those are the shows that
> are clobbering DS9, not B5. You don't even work for DS9 anymore, if
> I remember correctly. So why are you so angry? Chill.
He isn't picking on B5. He's responding to the claims that DS9 ripped off
B5. There's a difference.
recook77
Franklin Hummel <hum...@world.std.com> wrote in article
<EJGp5...@world.std.com>...
> In article <3467A3...@cairns.net.au>,
> Evan Burton <ev...@cairns.net.au> wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to this newsgroup stuff, so if I make a faux pas, you have
> >my apologises in advance.
> > Apart from legal fandangling, and creative disputes, does it really
> >matter which came first? If your a dedicated fan of one, but not the
>
>
> Yes, it does matter, because it would be -stealing-.
Without solid proof, we will never know for sure.
Come on guys, give it a rest!
Justin Faulkner
recook77 <reco...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<01bcf1d0$0eb3fea0$64cc...@recook77.ix.netcom.com>...
THATS RIGHT TELL EM MR WOLFE!
--
--------------------------
"The truth is usually an excuse for a lack of imagination"-
-Garak, Deep Space Nine
8=(_)=8
Justin Faulkner
Lars P. Ormberg
Batz wrote:
> >C'mon People. Isn't it obvious what the REAL Sinclair/Sheridan/Sisko
> >similarity is???? I mean its staring you right in the face.....
> >
> >Thel ALL start with the letter "S"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> In the spirit of this observation, shouldn't the true parallel be
> between Jeff Sinclair, John Sheridan and *Jake* Sisko?
Especially since Sinclair and Sheridan were both created by a man named
_J_ohn (Micheal) _S_trazinski.
> B&R
--
Lars Ormberg
(Have to agree:can't no one cook roadkill better than me) (___)
(o o)
- I'm a genuine, certified, dixie fried, full of /-------\ /
pride, 'til I die pure bred redneck! / | ||O
* ||,---||
mailto:la...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca ^^ ^^
mailto:commodo...@geocities.com
Visit Lars Across the Globe Campain at
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/5847/
Drew:So who all goes to these conventions anyway?
Lewis:Well, most of them are Trekkies like us, but then there are
a few Star Wars and Babylon 5 fans there too.
Oswald:Yeah, like that's real.
"The Drew Carey Show"
Lars P. Ormberg
Hiero Bosch wrote:
> Well, there was "The Circle," and even from the start DS9 was committed to
> having long term stories. Remember the Dominion was first mentioned in a
> Ferengi comedy. Yes, B5 has probably influences DS9 paying greater
> attention to continuity, but little more I think.
The fan reaction and popularity of the "Nitpicker" books by Phil Farrand
likely have an impact as well. Millions of fans laughing as we examine
the errors within SCENES, let alone those between scenes and between
episodes and between seasons (Spot becoming female, etc.) Sure we don't
expect perfection, and yes the serieses do hold together fairly well,
but some of the glaring ones are certainly worthy of the creators trying
to fix.
Dennis Iannicca
In rec.arts.startrek.current Gareth Wilson <gr...@student.cantxxxerbury.ac.nz> wrote:
: David wrote:
: >
: > Evan Burton wrote:
: > >
: > > I've just discovered another amazing coincidence between B5 and
: > > DS9..... the're both good!
: > > Johnny Torch - Flame On!
: >
: > Ain't that the truth.
Oh yea? Well Law and Order ripped off M.A.S.H.! (I don't know if
it did but none of the rest of this thread makes any sense either.)
--
--------------------------------------------
drs...@dominion.cba.csuohio.edu
Blinky lights are the essence of technology!
Caffeine underflow (brain dumped)
void main() { __asm__(".long 0xc8c70ff0"); }
William December Starr
In article <346C25...@student.cantxxxerbury.ac.nz>,
gr...@student.cantxxxerbury.ac.nz said:
> They're both ripping off Law and Order- which is also good!
Come to think of it, one _can_ almost see traces of Adam Shiff in
Kosh...
-- William December Starr <wds...@crl.com>
Gareth Wilson
William December Starr wrote:
>
> In article <346C25...@student.cantxxxerbury.ac.nz>,
> gr...@student.cantxxxerbury.ac.nz said:
>
> > They're both ripping off Law and Order- which is also good!
>
> Come to think of it, one _can_ almost see traces of Adam Shiff in
> Kosh...
>
"Hit the Shadows with a shovel before they crawl all the way out."
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gareth Wilson
Christchurch
New Zealand
remove "xxx" from address to reply
Commercial e-mail will be deleted unread
"Medical personnel pick their noses
three times an hour, on average"
-Nurse, "ER"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gareth Wilson
starcro1 wrote:
> >
> What the hey, let's ring in "Mission: Impossible," too! After all, Steven
> Hill, who plays Adam Schiff, was the original star of "MI," playing
> Impossible Missions Force leader Dan Briggs for a year before Peter Graves
> signed on as James Phelps.
> I mean, "Star Trek's" holodeck is simply a high tech version of "MI's"
> sthick of drugging the bad guy and putting him in a seemingly friendly
> environment that is, in fact, completely under IMF control
>
And the Trek people can deguise you as any race, just like IMF's
masks...
Franklin Hummel
On a related topic of whether of not DEEP SPACE NINE was a
"rip-off" of BABYLON 5, I recall reading in one of the Trek newsgroups
recently that the DS9 episode "Our Man Bashir" (which by the way was
first shown also at the same time the 007 movie GOLDENEYE was released)
will likely -never- be shown again or appear in 2nd syndication or on
video. It seems the James Bond-007 copyright-owners were VERY upset with
this episode and came down hard on Paramount.
Is this true?
If it is, I am amazed. I mean, gees, after STAR TREK first used
Sherlock Holmes and related characters without consulting the Arthur Doyle
Estate (what were they thinking?) you think Paramount would have learned
their lesson.
Shame, shame on the STAR TREK production and Paramount.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
====================================================================
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