Crusher Homophobic
taxman.
>(and even took advantage of Riker's helplessness to continue her
>physical relationship with Odan) gets extremely cool and aloof as soon
>as the female host appears.
>
>That looks like homophobia to me.
So to you, all heterosexuals who are not homosexual/bisexual are homophobic?
>
>If Crusher hadn;t been so cold and aloof, if she had shown some
>tenderness for the symbiont she'd loved in two previous bodies, then
>I'd be willing to accept this was just a gender preference. But the
>way Crusher actually handled the end it seemed to me there were no
>tender feelings for the spirit of the person she'd loved.
>
>
>Wulf
>
>
Andrew Drake
homophobic. I am not
convinced that Doctor Crusher is prejudiced or fearful of homosexuals.
She is uneasy with the situation that she has found herself in.
Crusher loves a man. She is not really aware that she actually loves a giant
slug inside a man's body.
Crusher is heterosexual and thus finds it difficult to handle the fact that
the person she
loved is now housed in a female body.
Unless you take a very strict interpretation on homophobia then i think
her reaction is
much like anybody would be in that situation (unless you are bisexual I
suppose).
If she has a prejudice, I would say it is against symbionts. Their life
style requires them to be hosted
by humanoids. It doesn't matter to them whether the host is male or female,
they are therefore
(in human terms) bisexual, as we saw with Dax in Rejoined. They may take the
general sexuality of
the host (So Dax generally seemed to be attracted to males) but they are not
bothered by the
idea of having same sex relationships.
I do not consider myself to be homophobic, and yet if my girlfriend
turned up tomorrow
with a beard and trouser tackle then I doubt I would handle it any better
than Dr Crusher. My genetic
programming demands an interest in females. I can understand that there are
other
people who are different to me, but I do not desire a same sex relationship.
I don't
think this makes me homophobic and I don't think it makes Dr Crusher
homophobic either.
Of course that's just my opinion.
Culvain
There is no reason to label Bev Crusher homophobic based on the events in
>>>The Host.
>>
>>I'd have to disagree with that. Bev was willing to court Odan as long
>>as he inhabited a male body. She refused (and her whole demeanor
>>changed) when she realized Odan's next body would be female.
>
>But why does this make her "homophobic?" Keeping in mind that
>"homophobic" means prejudiced against or fearful of homosexuals, that
>is certainly not what she was.
I suppose unless a character actually says "I'm prejudiced" the point
could be argued they aren;t. But compare Crusher's emotional responses
from the time she sees the female host with all of her emotional
responses before that point and there is a -marked- difference.
Crusher's final dismissal of Odan when Odan appealed to her from
within a female body makes it very clear that some -other- emotion has
surfaced.
Crusher, who loved Odan in a male body and loved Odan in Riker's body
(and even took advantage of Riker's helplessness to continue her
physical relationship with Odan) gets extremely cool and aloof as soon
as the female host appears.
That looks like homophobia to me.
If Crusher hadn;t been so cold and aloof, if she had shown some
Wulf
>
>Is Dr Crusher homophobic.I think alot depends upon your definition of
>homophobic. I am not
> convinced that Doctor Crusher is prejudiced or fearful of homosexuals.
> She is uneasy with the situation that she has found herself in.
>
>Crusher loves a man. She is not really aware that she actually loves a giant
>slug inside a man's body.
If you recall, Crusher handled the operation that moved that giant
slug from Odan to Riker.
While her lack of awareness is justifiable before that operation her
subsequent actions with Riker were conducted with full awareness of
what Odan was.
>Crusher is heterosexual and thus finds it difficult to handle the fact that
>the person she loved is now housed in a female body.
> Unless you take a very strict interpretation on homophobia then i think
>her reaction is
>much like anybody would be in that situation (unless you are bisexual I
>suppose).
Well, I'm neither gay nor bi, but I hope I would have handled the
situation with a good deal more senstivity and love than Crusher.
We are supposed to believe Crusher was
head-over-heels/giddy-as-a-schoolgirl in love with Odan. She couldn;t
keep her hands off him whenever she had the chance.
She allowed this physical relationship to continue when Odan inhabited
Riker, knowing that Riker was unable to prevent this use of his body.
So we have to believe Crusher loves Odan enough to ignore the ethics
of this situation.
Yet she is a cold fish when she discovers Odan will inhabit a female
body. She is neither subtle, nor gentle, nor honest in dealing with
Odan, the woman. Crusher claims humans can;t adapt to so many bodies,
ignoring her own willingness to adapt to Odan-in-Riker and to use
Riker's body to further her physical relationship with Odan.
>If she has a prejudice, I would say it is against symbionts. Their life
>style requires them to be hosted
>by humanoids. It doesn't matter to them whether the host is male or female,
>they are therefore
>(in human terms) bisexual, as we saw with Dax in Rejoined. They may take the
>general sexuality of
>the host (So Dax generally seemed to be attracted to males) but they are not
>bothered by the idea of having same sex relationships.
If her prejudice is against symbionts, it should have shown up when
she discovered Odan was a symbiont, prior to the operation that moved
the slug into Riker's body. But it didn;t surface until the female
host reported for the operation.
> I do not consider myself to be homophobic, and yet if my girlfriend
>turned up tomorrow
>with a beard and trouser tackle then I doubt I would handle it any better
>than Dr Crusher. My genetic
>programming demands an interest in females. I can understand that there are
>other
>people who are different to me, but I do not desire a same sex relationship.
>I don't
>think this makes me homophobic and I don't think it makes Dr Crusher
>homophobic either.
>Of course that's just my opinion.
Culvain, I think there is nothing wrong with being heterosexual. But
if your relationship with your girlfriend were long-lasting, loving
and meaningful, I wonder whether you would dismiss her as quickly or
with as little sensitivity for her feelings as Crusher showed Odan.
Crusher presented an image where gender preference is more important
to her than any notion of romantic love. It leaves open the question
that she was simple in lust with Odan and not in love at all. And the
sharp divergence between her behaviour to Odan-Riker and her behaviour
to Odan-female it sure -looks- like homophobia to me.
Wulf
Join the Star Trek Voyager Mailing List.
Contact me at wu...@idirect.com for details.
spamfre...@sprynet.com
>I suppose unless a character actually says "I'm prejudiced" the point
>could be argued they aren;t. But compare Crusher's emotional responses
>from the time she sees the female host with all of her emotional
>responses before that point and there is a -marked- difference.
Well, yeah. Same point at which various folks here have said they'd
also show a marked difference in their reactions; me too. (BTW, went
to ask my hubbie his view, but I only got as far as, "If you were a
Trill..." and he started laughing too hard to reply. <g>)
>Crusher's final dismissal of Odan when Odan appealed to her from
>within a female body makes it very clear that some -other- emotion has
>surfaced.
Again, right, see below...
>Crusher, who loved Odan in a male body and loved Odan in Riker's body
>(and even took advantage of Riker's helplessness to continue her
>physical relationship with Odan) gets extremely cool and aloof as soon
>as the female host appears.
>
>That looks like homophobia to me.
Okay,some definitions from WWWebster so everyone can check them out:
"homophobia" = "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination
against homosexuality or homosexuals"
"homosexuality": "1 : the quality or state of being homosexual
2 : erotic activity with another of the same sex".
I didn't see anything in Crusher's behavior that evinced fear of,
aversion to, or discimination against homosexuals, nor against
homosexuality per item 1 of its definition.
I did see Crusher display aversion to homosexuality per item 2 of that
definition. So yes, "homophobia" is a fair label for her response.
And for the same aversion which has been reported by many of my hetero
friends -- even as they vote for rights of those of all sexual
orientation, hire and promote regardless of sexual orientation, hang
out and have a good time with folks regardless of sexual orientation.
I don't understand your hostility to Crusher's response (or to Crusher
in general). Just as I won't argue with my gay friends about their
reflexive aversion to hetero sex, I'm disinclined to argue with my
hetero friends about their aversion to gay sex. To argue with anyone
about their reflexive aversions seems not only futile but
disrespectful of their rights -- given that those folks
conscientiously respect the rights of those of other sexual
orientations.
It seemed creditably realistic to me that TNG showed a person reacting
in a way that so many people in my experience have reacted,
politically incorrect though (especially because?) it is. Yes, she
committed the heinous sin of waffling in her explanation, attributing
her response to something humans do rather than something she did.
And well, gee, that's real-life too.
I'm glad that, instead of spoonfeeding us the P.C. "right" answer, TNG
created this rich opportunity for discussion of questions such as,
"Why did Crusher react as she did? Was she right in saying that all
humans react that way? What about me -- what would I have done?" Do
you not appreciate that the way the ep unfolded HAS confronted us with
these questions (incontrovertibly so, for here we are discussing
them)? Would you really have preferred it otherwise??
>If Crusher hadn;t been so cold and aloof, if she had shown some
>tenderness for the symbiont she'd loved in two previous bodies, then
>I'd be willing to accept this was just a gender preference. But the
>way Crusher actually handled the end it seemed to me there were no
>tender feelings for the spirit of the person she'd loved.
Reminds me of a Dylan line: "They see your shyness and mistake it for
snobbery." ;-) "Cold and aloof"? Why not instead "rattled and
uncertain how to react"? Honestly, which could hurt Odan's feelings,
or dishonestly, which would be, well, dishonest? I'd have written it
with the former, but am glad TPTB chose the more interesting and
discussion-provoking third possibility: honest reaction then waffling.
- Anita
Wulf
>
>>Crusher, who loved Odan in a male body and loved Odan in Riker's body
>>(and even took advantage of Riker's helplessness to continue her
>>physical relationship with Odan) gets extremely cool and aloof as soon
>>as the female host appears.
>>
>>That looks like homophobia to me.
>
<chuckle>
As the next paragraph you quoted indicates I think one can be
heterosexual yet still sensitive to the feelings of others, including
homosexuals.
>>If Crusher hadn;t been so cold and aloof, if she had shown some
>>tenderness for the symbiont she'd loved in two previous bodies, then
>>I'd be willing to accept this was just a gender preference. But the
>>way Crusher actually handled the end it seemed to me there were no
>>tender feelings for the spirit of the person she'd loved.
Is it really so hard to imagine a heterosexual being sensitive to the
feelings of a gay person whom they love platonically but must
disappoint erotically due to their gender preference ?
I hope not.
Love is a precious gift. Regardless of the gender preference of the
person offering it, offering love takes incredible courage,
vulnerability, and trust.
Not all offers are going to be accepted (even amongst strictly
heterosexual individuals). So why shouldn;t those offers that must be
rejected (regardless of the reasons) be handled with a sensitive
awareness of just how vulnerable the the person offering their love
is?
Fire3Sky
in general). <<<<<
Actually, Crusher is one of my favorite characters. My problem with "The Host"
is that it showed a main character having a very negative reaction to the idea
of a gay relationship, and TNG *NEVER* showed any positive gay relationships.
"The Outcast",if you will recall, was about a *straight* character who was
being persecuted. If they had, even once, shown a gay relationship in a
positive light, no one would be complaining about "The Host". The fact is, the
world of ST is not a world in which both straight and gay people exist. Its a
world in which straight people exist. The only exceptions are Trill, who, from
what we've seen, can only express love towards people of the same sex if they
have previously had a heterosexual relationship with them, and of course, the
evil characters in the mirror universe, and the occasional "beautiful woman
becomes possessed by man, then makes pass at female costar" story on Voyager.
>>>It seemed creditably realistic to me that TNG showed a person reacting
in a way that so many people in my experience have reacted,
politically incorrect though (especially because?) it is. <<<<<
The problem is, the negative reaction is the only one TNG ever showed.
>I'm glad that, instead of spoonfeeding us the P.C. "right" answer, TNG
>created this rich opportunity for discussion of questions such as,
>"Why did Crusher react as she did?
So, tolerance is a PC issue that has to be spoonfed to us? Should we take a
spoonful of sugar to make it go down easier? Funny, I always thought that
tolerance was a basic human value, like compassion and love. IMO,of course.
Fire3Sky
spamfre...@sprynet.com
><<<<<<<I don't understand your hostility to Crusher's response (or to Crusher
>in general). <<<<<
>
>Actually, Crusher is one of my favorite characters.
But not Wulf's, to whom I addressed that. Just clarifying...
>My problem with "The Host"
>is that it showed a main character having a very negative reaction to the idea
>of a gay relationship, and TNG *NEVER* showed any positive gay relationships.
>"The Outcast",if you will recall, was about a *straight* character who was
>being persecuted.
To me, that was presented in a way that could allow straight viewers
to imagine how they'd like it if they were oppressed due to their
sexual preference. My experience is that that's a pretty effective
method for sneaking empathy into the psyches of those who would resist
spoonfeeding.
<snip me and your convincing list of Trek's limited portrayal of
homosexuality>
>The problem is, the negative reaction is the only one TNG ever showed.
I can't argue with that. Your facts match what I've observed. My
reaction to Crusher's reaction still is what it is, as you have yours.
But see below...
> >I'm glad that, instead of spoonfeeding us the P.C. "right" answer, TNG
>>created this rich opportunity for discussion of questions such as,
>>"Why did Crusher react as she did?
>
>So, tolerance is a PC issue that has to be spoonfed to us? Should we take a
>spoonful of sugar to make it go down easier? Funny, I always thought that
>tolerance was a basic human value, like compassion and love. IMO,of course.
Easy to spot attempts to spoonfeed, one of the reasons it tends not to
work real well. To put someone in the "other's" shoes seems to work a
lot better, and I think Trek has made some good efforts in that
direction. As much as it can do? 'Course not...
- Anita
JStaik1043
on homophobia at all.
Remember, Odon went from his original host into Will Riker, who was male. She
had an emotional problem with that because Will was a friend, but she got over
that.
I believe her reaction with Odon's female host was the reaction of a woman
realizing that her relationship with a man wasn't based on love or
understanding, but horniness. She didn't have a relationship with Odon, but his
partner Mr Johnson. When her first thoughts seeing the blonde host revolved
around the lack of a Johnson, she realized that it was a purely physical
relationship. Had there been genuine emotions involved, the lack of a pocket
rocket would not be an issue. The whole speech to Odon at the end was just a
variant of "-but we'll always be friends", which even another male host might
have gotten (just not as quickly).
--------------------
Jack Staik
--------------------
"Now that we have clarified our attitudes toward each other, have decided upon
an armed and suspicious truce, I see nothing to prevent us from working
together in a completely harmonious mutual distrust for the good of all."
spamfre...@sprynet.com
part:
>
>Not all offers are going to be accepted (even amongst strictly
>heterosexual individuals). So why shouldn;t those offers that must be
>rejected (regardless of the reasons) be handled with a sensitive
>awareness of just how vulnerable the the person offering their love
>is?
>
behaves a certain way isn't necessarily to say that that is the way it
should be done. Look at "Falling Down". Brilliant movie, IMO, though
I don't think it recommended that we all go berserk and shoot up the
world.
Anyway, it's as valid to suggest that Crusher indeed had a sensitive
awareness etc. Sometimes that keen awareness can make a person
stumble, at a loss for the best course of action. At least, among us
mere mortals, that can happen.
- Anita
JASONVOTAW
>in a way that so many people in my experience have reacted,
>politically incorrect though (especially because?) it is. <<<<<
>
>
Then your complaint should be directed more to TNG the series for not showing a
positive reaction to a gay character instead of one episode or Beverlys
reaction.
Jason
Gareth
>Had there been genuine emotions involved, the lack of a pocket
>rocket would not be an issue. The whole speech to Odon at the end was just
a
>variant of "-but we'll always be friends", which even another male host
might
>have gotten (just not as quickly).
This doesn't seem to be the case at all - a (potent) penis isn't essential
for a straight or gay relationship. But physical realities are pretty
important nonetheless and pretty subtle too. Scientific research suggests
that pheromones play a part in romantic love as well as cruder physical
attraction - that the two may not be quite as separate as some people think
and that romantic love between two people is driven by powerful
physical/biological forces. The force isn't just about attraction but also
about repulsion - Beverley was quite obviously repulsed by the thought of
sex with another woman (and sex was important to her) and this repulsion was
basically beyond her control.
Ignoring this and given male psychology and the possibility of one's
girlfriend turning up tomorrow minus tits and plus trouser tackle one
question remains: does she have a bigger dick than I do? No relationship of
mine could ever survive a yes answer to that question ;-)
Gareth.
Wulf
>
>On 3 Jan 1999 06:14:10 GMT, fire...@aol.com (Fire3Sky) wrote:
>
>>My problem with "The Host"
>>is that it showed a main character having a very negative reaction to the idea
>>of a gay relationship, and TNG *NEVER* showed any positive gay relationships.
>>"The Outcast",if you will recall, was about a *straight* character who was
>>being persecuted.
>
>To me, that was presented in a way that could allow straight viewers
>to imagine how they'd like it if they were oppressed due to their
>sexual preference. My experience is that that's a pretty effective
>method for sneaking empathy into the psyches of those who would resist
>spoonfeeding.
The problem is homophobes are not going to identify with Odan's pain
of being rejected. They're going to identify with Crusher's shock at
finding herself on the receiving end of an invitation to a lesbian
relationship, and will react much as she did.
The situation was quite alien to our world, as I said yesterday. The
closest situations is either a spouse who elects to go for transgender
surgery (in which case the homophobe would divorce the spouse) or a
transvestite date (in which case the homophobe would get angry over
being fooled).
Neither scenario gives the homophobe the basis for sympathizing with
Odan, and "The Host" didn;t try very hard to achieve a sense of
sympathy for Odan during or after Crusher's rejection (which was saved
till virtually the last few minutes of the episode).
So how do you see Trek "sneaking empathy into the psyches" of
anyone who wasn't already predisposed to sympathy for
homosexuals?
Vsion Ary
Gareth <dial.pipex....@garethd.com> wrote in message
news:76nmqd$og8$1...@plug.news.pipex.net...
>
>Ignoring this and given male psychology and the possibility of one's
>girlfriend turning up tomorrow minus tits and plus trouser tackle one
>question remains: does she have a bigger dick than I do? No relationship of
>mine could ever survive a yes answer to that question ;-)
>
>Gareth.
Gareth, hon, she may already have a bigger dick than yours. She may keep it
in the bedside cabinet and it could potentially run on batteries.
Wulf
>
>I don't think that Crusher's reactions to Odon's "musical bodies" bit was based
>on homophobia at all.
>
>Remember, Odon went from his original host into Will Riker, who was male. She
>had an emotional problem with that because Will was a friend, but she got over
>that.
>
>I believe her reaction with Odon's female host was the reaction of a woman
>realizing that her relationship with a man wasn't based on love or
>understanding, but horniness. She didn't have a relationship with Odon, but his
>partner Mr Johnson. When her first thoughts seeing the blonde host revolved
>around the lack of a Johnson, she realized that it was a purely physical
>rocket would not be an issue. The whole speech to Odon at the end was just a
>variant of "-but we'll always be friends", which even another male host might
>have gotten (just not as quickly).
So what does -that- say about Crusher? She had a sexual relationship
with Odan while he possessed Will Riker's body and Riker was helpless
to prevent it or object to it.
Riker was in no position to give consent to this use of his body. He
agreed to Odan inhabiting his body to facilitate some crucial
diplomatic mission to prevent a war. He -didn;t- consent to his body
being used for sex between Odan and Crusher.
Crusher's "horniness" ignored all sorts of ethical considerations to
do this to Riker. It is not unlike an intern having sex with a
comatose patient: no consent obtained and no choice given.
That's rape.
So either Crusher was so deeply in love that she couldn;t prevent
herself from having intimate relations with a helpless Riker or she
was so horny she didn;t care just as long as Riker's anatomy was
"fully functional".
Neither paints a pretty picture of the doctor.
Wulf
I think the complaint is addressed to all the Treks, and through Trek
society at large, Jason.
Focusing on the few situations where Trek got close to addressing the
issue is natural since others are bringing these situations up to
claim there is no grounds for the complaint in the first place.
Gareth
>
>Gareth, hon, she may already have a bigger dick than yours. She may keep it
>in the bedside cabinet and it could potentially run on batteries.
That image is now obsessively haunting me - you had to say that didn't you
;-)
Gareth.
spamfre...@sprynet.com
>In article <368f34d9...@news.sprynet.com>, spamfre...@sprynet.com wrote:
>>
>>On 3 Jan 1999 06:14:10 GMT, fire...@aol.com (Fire3Sky) wrote:
>>
>>>My problem with "The Host"
>>>is that it showed a main character having a very negative reaction to the idea
>>>of a gay relationship, and TNG *NEVER* showed any positive gay relationships.
>>>"The Outcast",if you will recall, was about a *straight* character who was
>>>being persecuted.
>>
>>To me, that was presented in a way that could allow straight viewers
<snip>
>
>So how do you see Trek "sneaking empathy into the psyches" of
>anyone who wasn't already predisposed to sympathy for
>homosexuals?
The antecedent of "that" is the ep mentioned just prior to my comment.
"The Outcast", not "The Host". In case rereading my post that way
still doesn't answer your question, it depicts a person being
oppressed for heterosexuality. No guarantee that that will suffice to
open minds determinedly kept closed, but it's a technique that IME has
helped people relate better to members of groups that are oppressed
and to which that person does not belong.
- Anita
Maureen Goldman
> I don't think that Crusher's reactions to Odon's "musical bodies" bit was based
> on homophobia at all.
>
> Remember, Odon went from his original host into Will Riker, who was male. She
> had an emotional problem with that because Will was a friend, but she got over
> that.
>
> I believe her reaction with Odon's female host was the reaction of a woman
> realizing that her relationship with a man wasn't based on love or
> understanding, but horniness. She didn't have a relationship with Odon, but his
> partner Mr Johnson. When her first thoughts seeing the blonde host revolved
> around the lack of a Johnson, she realized that it was a purely physical
> relationship. Had there been genuine emotions involved, the lack of a pocket
> rocket would not be an issue. The whole speech to Odon at the end was just a
> variant of "-but we'll always be friends", which even another male host might
> have gotten (just not as quickly).
Oh, dear. After this, I'm not sure that I'll ever be able to react the
same to the name "Johnson". (Sorry, SJ.)
Sorry, but to me, your reasoning doesn't add up. I consider a love to be
genuine even if it can't withstand a sex change. Similarly, any of us
might fall in love with someone and then discover aspects about or
experience changes in the beloved that are unacceptable. This doesn't make
that love any the less real or its loss any the less painful.
Wulf
>
>Gareth <dial.pipex....@garethd.com> wrote in message
>news:76nmqd$og8$1...@plug.news.pipex.net...
>>
>>Ignoring this and given male psychology and the possibility of one's
>>girlfriend turning up tomorrow minus tits and plus trouser tackle one
>>question remains: does she have a bigger dick than I do? No relationship of
>>mine could ever survive a yes answer to that question ;-)
>>
>>Gareth.
>
>in the bedside cabinet and it could potentially run on batteries.
Or an electrical outlet, in which case you can worry about endurance
as well as size ;-)
Fire3Sky
showing a
positive reaction to a gay character instead of one episode or Beverlys
reaction.>>>>>>>>
That is how the thread started. We were talking about TNG in general.
Fire3Sky
Wulf
Yes, I'd overlooked the reference. Thanks for pointing it out.
But even in "The Outcast" we have a problem for gay issues.
The J'naii persecuted those who didn;t engage in same-sex relations
("same-sex" because the J'naii are androgynous and thus all of one
gender). That looks to me like a homophobe's worst nightmare, being
forced to engage in homosexual behaviour and not permitted to engage
in heterosexual behaviour.
So from the homophobic point of view "The Outcast" condemns
homosexuals as people who would force heterosexuals into homosexual
behaviour and thus reinforcing a negative stereo-type that's been used
to keep gays from teaching children in schools (ie the fear of being
indoctrinated/conditioned into homosexuality which was exactly what
happened to Soren at the end of "The Outcast").
Fire3Sky
for a straight or gay relationship. But physical realities are pretty
important nonetheless and pretty subtle too.>>>>
But up until the last scene, the whole theme of "The Host" was that "physical
realities" didn't matter. Crusher had decided, before she saw the female host,
that she loved Odan's soul regardless of Odan's body. That all changed as soon
as the female Odan showed up. For the record, I'm not suggesting that Crusher
should have pursued a sexual relationship with the female Odan. I am suggesting
that Crusher should have let Odan down a *lot* easier when she broke up with
her. And Crusher's lack of compassion for the person she loved, once the
person's body was female, certainly seemed homophobic to me.
Fire3Sky
JStaik1043
>genuine even if it can't withstand a sex change. Similarly, any of us
>might fall in love with someone and then discover aspects about or
>experience changes in the beloved that are unacceptable. This doesn't make
>that love any the less real or its loss any the less painful.
You're assuming a genuine love-relationship. Heck, I know that true love can
stand anything (my grandparents have stayed together 73 years through
circumstances that would set most modern couples in divorce courts because they
couldn't bear the thought of being apart). True love doesn't depend on sex, on
age, or on gender or society or any of that crap.
But what Bev and Odon had was a two-week fling that they got carried away with.
Lust is often mistaken for love, especially by the lonely and desperate.
--------------------
Jack Staik
been there done that
Fire3Sky
>>>To me, that was presented in a way that could allow straight viewers
>sexual preference. My experience is that that's a pretty effective
>method for sneaking empathy into the psyches of those who would resist
>spoonfeeding.>>>>
The problem is, I've heard homophobic ST fans say that "The Outcast" was not
about homophobia, but about prejudice in general, and as far as they were
concerned, it was still OK to persecute gay people. While they did feel
empathy for the persecuted straight person in "The Outcast", they did not
understand the analogy to gay issues and did not transfer the empathy they felt
to gay people. These same people say that Jadzia didn't really *count* as a
lesbian, and they feel that the Dax symbiont "commandeered" Jadzia's body, and
used it to kiss a woman, even though the show was very clear that Dax loved
Lenara from the beginning, and Jadzia grew to love her during the course of the
show. So, basically, only people who are already tolerant are going to
understand the analogies. Intolerant people are going to miss the analogies
entirely. If TPTB want to consider ST a progressive show, then they need to
include a character who is *gay*. By dancing around the issues with alien
characters, they are really just avoiding the issues. And what you need to
realize is that a black person could watch Uhura, Geordi, or Sisko, and say
"yes, people like me are included in that show", but as a gay person, I have
*never* seen a person like myself on ST. All I've seen are some aliens with
interesting sexualities, in shows that are designed to teach straight people
that prejudice is wrong.
Fire3Sky
Fire3Sky
with.
Lust is often mistaken for love, especially by the lonely and desperate.
>>>>
Acually, Odan asked Picard if he thought Beverly would consider leaving the
Enterprise. Which sounded like he was considering marriage, IMO. And Beverly
was devastated by Odan's death. I felt that it was portrayed as a *love* story.
If you saw it differently, that's your opinion. But your argument that Bev
didn't really love Odan is not backed up by what's shown in the episode, IMO.
Fire3Sky
JStaik1043
persuasive men who ever lived. One evening, when he was walking home, he was
accosted by two men (whom he had a nodding acquaintance with) and told that he
would come to their home, whether he wanted to or not. Socrates asked if
anything he said could dissuade them from kidnapping him. They said no, because
they weren't going to listen to him.
Think about it.
--------------------
Jack Staik
spinner of parables
JASONVOTAW
I know I just don't think Beverlys actions in "The Host" should be used as a
example of Trek not addressing the gay issue. Trek never having a gay
character or even mentioning gays still exsist in the future is the best
example of Treks failure in this issue.
Jason
JASONVOTAW
>>>in a way that so many people in my experience have reacted,
>>>politically incorrect though (especially because?) it is. <<<<<
>>>
>>>The problem is, the negative reaction is the only one TNG ever showed.
>>>
>>
>showing a
>>positive reaction to a gay character instead of one episode or Beverlys
>>reaction.
>
>society at large, Jason.
>
>Focusing on the few situations where Trek got close to addressing the
>issue is natural since others are bringing these situations up to
>claim there is no grounds for the complaint in the first place.
>
I agree the complaint is valid. Just not the Beverly reaction as a example.
Jason
JASONVOTAW
>Enterprise. Which sounded like he was considering marriage, IMO. And Beverly
>was devastated by Odan's death. I felt that it was portrayed as a *love*
>story.
>If you saw it differently, that's your opinion. But your argument that Bev
>didn't really love Odan is not backed up by what's shown in the episode, IMO.
>
I also think that the characters weren't really in love from the begining. How
could they be after just to weeks. Add the fact that we have never ever heard
her mention Odan in any future episodes or movies makes it seem like it was
just a love affair not true love at work.
Jason
Maureen Goldman
> I also think that the characters weren't really in love from the begining. How
> could they be after just to weeks. Add the fact that we have never ever heard
> her mention Odan in any future episodes or movies makes it seem like it was
> just a love affair not true love at work.
C'mon, you know that a character who only appeared in a single episode is
very unlikely to be mentioned in any other.
I don't see any problem with them being in love upon short acquaintance.
It is another question whether this love might endure.
Gary St. Lawrence -- The Saint
anon:
}C'mon, you know that a character who only appeared in a single episode is
}very unlikely to be mentioned in any other.
You mean characters like Carol Marcus, Captain Christopher Pike, Lieutenant
Thomas Riker ... those kinds of characters?
To respond, remove "nospam." from my address.
"The only difference between the saint and the sinner
is that every saint has a past, and every sinner has
a future." - Oscar Wilde
JASONVOTAW
>How
>> could they be after just to weeks. Add the fact that we have never ever
>heard
>> her mention Odan in any future episodes or movies makes it seem like it was
>> just a love affair not true love at work.
>
>very unlikely to be mentioned in any other.
>
Well if the character means alot to that one character they should. Even Jack
Crusher got mentioned and talked about a few times and we didn't even ever see
him. We saw his holo image and him in Wesleys dream on the Indian planet but
never did we meet him so to speak yet he got many mentions.
Jason
Vsion Ary
simply a sweet, innocent young thing, do not read this post.
`
`
`
`
`
Question is, is it a star trek model? The Enterprise brand - boldly going
where no man has gone before? The Defiant brand - always threatens to
explode halfway through, so that Chief O'Brien has to come in and fix it?
The Klingon - with ridges! The Cardassian - once it's there, it stays for
fifty years - when you finally get rid of it, it tells you your mother used
it first. The voyager - use it once and it gets lost down there, but
promises to return in 70 years having thoroughly charted your genitalia.
Wulf <Wu...@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:76ooot$dg_...@ns.idirect.com...
>In article <76nv7f$hft$1...@nclient1-gui.server.virgin.net>, "Vsion Ary"
<vsion.ary...@virgin.net> wrote:
>>
>>Gareth <dial.pipex....@garethd.com> wrote in message
>>news:76nmqd$og8$1...@plug.news.pipex.net...
>>>
>>>Ignoring this and given male psychology and the possibility of one's
>>>girlfriend turning up tomorrow minus tits and plus trouser tackle one
>>>question remains: does she have a bigger dick than I do? No relationship
of
>>>mine could ever survive a yes answer to that question ;-)
>>>
>>>Gareth.
>>
>>Gareth, hon, she may already have a bigger dick than yours. She may keep
it
>>in the bedside cabinet and it could potentially run on batteries.
>
>Or an electrical outlet, in which case you can worry about endurance
>as well as size ;-)
>
Wulf
>
>GOOD TASTE WARNING - if you are cursed with good taste, decency or are
>simply a sweet, innocent young thing, do not read this post.
LOL.
Thanks for clearing that up for us, Vsion.
No wonder Miles sends Keiko away for extended periods of time ;-).
Wulf
>
>GOOD TASTE WARNING - if you are cursed with good taste, decency or are
>simply a sweet, innocent young thing, do not read this post.
>`
>`
>`
>`
>
>
>
>
>Question is, is it a star trek model? The Enterprise brand - boldly going
>where no man has gone before? The Defiant brand - always threatens to
>explode halfway through, so that Chief O'Brien has to come in and fix it?
>The Klingon - with ridges! The Cardassian - once it's there, it stays for
>fifty years - when you finally get rid of it, it tells you your mother used
>it first. The voyager - use it once and it gets lost down there, but
>promises to return in 70 years having thoroughly charted your genitalia.
The Romulan brand: sneaks in when you aren;t looking and threatens to
blow your socks off.
The Dominion brand: changes shape but ends up a puddle in a bucket
when done.
The Borg brand: doesn;t stop till you stop resisting.
The Trill brand: speaks to you while in use.
The Ferengi brand: comes with a slot for your latinum.
The Betazed brand: sympathizes with your guilt.
The Vulcan brand: lives long and prospers, but only works once every
seven years.
Vsion Ary
Wulf
>
>ROFL - you're warped!!!!
"Engage"
;-)