[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "The Dogs of War"
Timothy W. Lynch
your heels, I suggest you move on if you don't want spoiler
information.
In brief: Somewhat disjointed; some stories are terrific, others are
uneven.
======
Written by: Rene Echevarria & Ronald D. Moore (teleplay);
Peter Allan Fields (story)
Directed by: Avery Brooks
Brief summary: Damar's rebellion takes an unexpected turn, Quark
receives a surprising bit of news from Grand Nagus Zek, Bashir and
Ezri confront their feelings, and Kasidy Yates hands Sisko another
surprise.
======
Even if I hadn't already known that DS9 was coming to a close soon,
the last few weeks would have made it pretty obvious. First Damar
leads a rebellion against the Dominion, then Martok rises to the
Chancellorship in the Klingon Empire, and now there's a power shift
on Ferenginar. It's perhaps a little convenient that all of this is
happening at once, but we've been getting an overwhelming sense of
ending of late.
I do have to regret spending nearly half an episode right before the
series finale wrapping up as unappealing a set of characters as Zek,
Brunt, Ishka and the like, however. Given that they've been
characters of long standing (Zek, after all, has been around since
DS9's first season), it certainly makes sense to visit them here -- at
least, more than it did heading back to DaiMon Bok in TNG's final
few episodes. However, with Ishka's last appearance in the terrible
"Profit and Lace" and Zek's in the only marginally better "The
Emperor's New Cloak," I can't say these are characters I'm
particularly interested in seeing again. (This is probably coming as a
surprise to absolutely no one so far, considering my previous
statements about heavy-Ferengi shows.)
Given that, it's perhaps notable that I found the Quark-centered parts
of the show, while tiresome, at least substantially less annoying than
usual. It could be that Rene Echevarria and Ron Moore realized that
one of the more teeth-grating portions of "Profit and Lace" (apart from
the entire premise) was the endless parade of screeching dialogue
passing for character conflict between Quark and Ishka. Whether that
was their assessment or not, they wisely kept the two characters
separated for all but one scene, and even that one was in a large
enough group that the histrionics were kept to something of a
minimum.
Mostly, however, the Quark-centered parts of the show were fairly
tedious. First he's told he's going to be the new Nagus. Seems I've
heard that one before. Then he finds out that Zek has instituted
massive new reforms on Ferenginar, and he's convinced that all of
Ferengi society is going astray. "Profit and Lace," anyone? He
eventually decides that if he's going to be Nagus, Zek has to let him
do things "his way," and confronts Zek on it when he arrives -- oh,
but wait. The message Zek originally sent was so static-ridden that
Zek thought he was talking to *Rom*, not Quark -- and it's Rom
who's going to be the "kinder, gentler Nagus" for this new era.
Okay, so that part isn't well-treaded by DS9, but how many episodes
of, say, "Three's Company" (or, more recently, "Friends," at least
given ads I keep seeing) revolved around something being misheard
or misinterpreted? As usual, we have the Ferengi being shown as a
parody of current American society (with Quark playing the Rush
Limbaugh commentator role); as usual, it's not a biting enough parody
to be remotely interesting; and as usual, to make up for that lack of
interest we get a few scantily-clad Dabo girls lounging around. Move
along, folks: nothing to see here.
That said, there were a few moments in the Quark story which rose
above their usual level. Among other things, while the idea of putting
Rom in charge of Ferenginar seems absurd, I'm glad that for *once*
there was a fundamental change, unlike virtually any Ferengi-centered
show we've seen before. (Max Grodenchik also fared better than
usual, particularly after he's named Nagus. He seemed positively
tender towards Quark without being cloying, which he hasn't always
pulled off that well before. Kudos there.) Brunt was also far less
annoying than usual, in part because he was played as pathetic here
rather than someone we're actually supposed to be worried about. All
in all, however, I could have done without this particular bit of
closure.
Moving on, the Kira-centered pieces of "The Dogs of War" fared far,
far better. As someone recently pointed out to me in e-mail, I wrote
almost six years ago after DS9's first season that Kira's path might
eventually take her to Cardassia if the irony level was right -- and
now, here she is. (Yes, I know she's been to Cardassia before, but as
a captive -- this time she's going voluntarily.) As is keeping with
Damar's entire rebellion, however, nothing quite goes according to
plan.
Damar, Garak and Kira beam down to meet with a Gul planning to go
over to Damar's side; however, they quickly find that said Gul has
betrayed them all. All of the other conspirators are rounded up and
shot, and Damar's ship is destroyed in orbit. With nowhere else to
turn, the three wind up in the house Garak grew up in, with Enabran
Tain's housekeeper Mila still there and willing to help.
Now, I do wonder why Gul Rovok didn't wait to have the Jem'Hadar
attack until *after* Damar had made his presence known; that way he
could have been assured that Damar was captured as well. (Don't tell
me that he secretly sympathized and let Damar get away; given his
other actions, that's somewhat far-fetched.) However, the destruction
of Damar's organized revolution isn't really the point: the episode
deals with the aftermath.
At first, Damar is devastated by his rebellion's defeat, particularly
when word filters in that all eighteen of his bases have been found and
destroyed. All of that changes, however, when Mila comes back with
news she's picked up on the street: the people are refusing to believe
that Damar is really dead. As details come in, Kira starts wondering if
even this small rebellion has turned Damar into a legend -- if that's the
case, she realizes, then he may be able to carry on the rebellion on the
streets of Cardassia itself. Damar jumps at the chance, and after
successfully bombing a nearby Jem'Hadar barracks he begins rallying
the people into a fighting force.
The idea behind "rebellion goes from an organized military one to a
grass-roots one" may not be all that original, but the execution of it
was worth the effort. It was nice to see that Kira's tactical
suggestions don't always pan out, and to see Damar rise to yet another
occasion by giving a speech that would have been truly beyond him
two years or even two months ago. (It was somewhat melodramatic,
perhaps, but in a situation like that I think melodrama is quite
definitely called for.)
The other primary (tertiary, perhaps?) plot of the episode finally wraps
up the Bashir/Ezri romance issue. They finally decide to talk, concede
they're interested, decide that it's not worth risking their friendship,
and decide just to stay friends. Naturally this means that the next time
they see each other, they wind up seriously smooching in an elevator.
It's nice to see the two of them finally get together, but the punches
have been telegraphed so far in advance that there wasn't much impact
here.
A lot of the remainder of "The Dogs of War" consisted of snippets
which are, I'm assuming, setting up for the series finale next week.
While I'm curious about how they turn out, it's a little frustrating to
see what almost resembles an extended preview more than a story in
and of itself.
Those various snippets are, in some sort of order:
-- Sisko gets another ship, the USS Sao Paulo, which by special
dispensation is renamed the Defiant. It was definitely a bit of a thrill
to see a new ship pop up, but if it's exactly the same as the old one,
what exactly was the point of destroying the Defiant back in "The
Changing Face of Evil"? (If it's just to show what a big bad menace
the Breen represent, then you need to *leave the ship dead.*)
-- Bashir releases Odo back to duty, but not before telling him that
Section 31 was behind the disease which infected him and thus his
people. I truly hope we get more with this next week, because Odo's
reactions and particularly the following Odo/Sisko conversation were
absolutely top-notch, full of the shades of gray and moral debates that
really help flesh out a universe. Nobody's condoning what Section
31 did, Sisko protests -- but now that it's done, the Federation
Council isn't about to hand over the cure to a current enemy.
"Interesting," responds Odo. "The Federation claims to abhor Section
31's tactics, but when they need the dirty work done they look the
other way. Tidy little arrangement, isn't it?" I still say Ross needs a
comeuppance next week -- if he doesn't get one, I'll be somewhat
irked.
-- The Dominion pulls back into Cardassian territory given the
Federation's successful countermeasure to the Breen energy siphon.
(Unfortunately, all we get to do is hear about it: we've no evidence
for ourselves that it works, and no real sense of how much this evens
the odds. Aren't there a *lot* of Breen ships, even without the
siphon?) They hope that the Federation will act cautiously and give
them time to rebuild -- but the Federation/Romulan/Klingon alliance
decides to move forward and attack, pressing the advantage while they
can.
-- Kasidy Yates returns to the screen, and tells Sisko that she's
pregnant. He's surprised but ecstatic; she's happy, but terrified that
the Prophets' reference to "nothing but sorrow" has something to do
with their child. Sisko consoles her, pointing out that as the
Emissary, he is promising that nothing will go wrong with this baby.
Famous last words, I suspect...
So, a lot happened here -- but unlike other densely-plotted shows such
as "The Changing Face of Evil" or "Tacking With the Wind," this one
feels a little empty to me. Some of that's undoubtedly because
Quark's story, which took up so much screen time, did nothing for
me -- but the other factor is that so many things were nothing but
obvious setup. At this point, next week we need to address the fate of
the war, the fate of Sisko's child (the unborn one, not the
mysteriously missing Jake), Damar's rebellion, the Pah Wraiths, the
Prophets' plan for Sisko, Winn and Dukat (also missing far too much
over the last few weeks), the Founders' disease, and the cancer within
the Federation. That's a *hell* of a lot to do in two hours, and we've
spent so much time on setup that I'm a little concerned the payoff will
wind up being too rushed. (I'm particularly concerned given that I
know Vic Fontaine is showing up in the finale. With so many things
we *do* need to cover, why another stop into Vic's?) We'll see in a
week, I suppose.
Other thoughts:
-- I'm a little puzzled about Sisko's baby. Kasidy says that "one of us
forgot to take his injection this month," -- but if they're both getting
contraceptive injections, shouldn't they *both* need to "forget" in
order for a pregnancy to happen? That much is true now in the late
20th century; I can't imagine it's changed by the late 24th.
-- In case anyone missed it, Quark has a really obvious Picard riff
when he's ranting at Rom about the Nagus's reforms. "The line has
to be drawn he-yahh," and so forth. I can't say as I was thrilled to see
it.
-- On the other hand, Echevarria and Moore may have sneaked in a
really subtle reference to Armin Shimerman's past. In one of his final
speeches, Quark says that his bar will be "the last outpost of what
made Ferenginar great!" Those with long memories may remember
that Shimerman played the very first Ferengi we ever saw, in TNG's
first-season episode entitled "The Last Outpost." It could be
accidental, but I'm not betting on it.
-- No Alamo references for the first time in a very long while.
-- It's interesting to see Mila (Tain's housekeeper again). Ever since it
was revealed that Tain was Garak's father, people have been
speculating that Mila was his mother -- I wonder if we'll find
something out about that either way next week.
-- When Garak was stopped outside the Jem'Hadar barracks with the
clock ticking down on a bomb, I wondered if Garak was finally going
to bite the dust. He's escaped so far, but I see it as very possible that
he won't survive the rest of the rebellion. (Of course, given the twists
we've had in both the Klingon and Ferengi successions, it could be
that Damar will be killed and Garak will wind up leading Cardassia,
but somehow I can't see it.)
-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
week: Weyoun, Winn, probably Dukat, probably the female
Changeling, almost certainly Kasidy, maybe Admiral Ross, and
possibly Garak. (I don't expect any "front-credits" characters to cash
it in; much as it might dramatically make sense, I can't picture that big
a merchandising risk.)
That about covers it. The last two weeks (especially "Extreme
Measures") have been somewhat disappointing compared to the rest of
this final run-up, but with so much long-term material to pay off I'm
feeling very hopeful about the finale. Time will tell; it always does.
Wrapping up for the next-to-last time, then:
Writing: Ferenginar politics got tired about four years ago; Cardassian
politics almost never do. Some nice closure to a couple of
elements, as well.
Directing: Brooks' swan song, and it came off all right. I particularly
liked the close-ups on Odo and Sisko during their
confrontation.
Acting: Wallace Shawn and Cecily Adams did nothing for me; the rest
of the Ferengi plot was harmless, and I've no qualms about
anyone else.
OVERALL: 6, at least for now. It'll depend a lot on what happens...
NEXT WEEK: The end.
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"The reality is, the Federation set out to destroy my people."
"Section 31 aren't part of the Federation -- they're a rogue organiz-"
"Don't split hairs with me, Doctor."
-- Odo and Bashir
--
Copyright 1999, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
Lab User
> As usual, we have the Ferengi being shown as a
> parody of current American society (with Quark playing the Rush
> Limbaugh commentator role); as usual, it's not a biting enough parody
> to be remotely interesting; and as usual, to make up for that lack of
> interest we get a few scantily-clad Dabo girls lounging around. Move
> along, folks: nothing to see here.
Very on-target piece of criticism here. The Ferengi have never worked
as a parody of American society despite numerous attempts here. It's
not that there isn't room for parody of our way of life, it's just that
the ST writers have been so heavy-handed in doing it that it is simply
poor satire.
Marty
David E. Sluss
Okay, I'll bite:
tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
>week: Weyoun,
Probably. But with the cloning business, it doesn't really matter.
>Winn,
I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
Kai-less.
>probably Dukat,
Agreed.
>probably the female Changeling,
Nope. Best bet is she sees that the Feds are good people and it was
wrong to start a war with them. Note: I think that scenario sucks,
but I've been predicting that for nearly a year, so I have a stake in
seeing it come true.
>almost certainly Kasidy,
And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
>maybe Admiral Ross,
Maybe. Best guess, no. And no comeuppance for his Section 8
involvement either, I'll wager.
>and possibly Garak.
I doubt it. Best guess is he becomes Dumb-Ar's veep.
A couple of weeks ago, I'd have said Martok would buy it, but now that
he's the kinder, less corrupt chancellor of the Klingon Empire, I
don't think so, since I doubt DS9 would end with the Klingons in
leadership limbo.
Who else? Rom and Leeta? It'd be nice, but unlikely. Nevertheless,
there's something ghoulishly appealing about Rom being made Grand
Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
Nog? Probably not.
Morn? Hmm....
>(I don't expect any "front-credits" characters to cash
>it in; much as it might dramatically make sense, I can't picture that big
>a merchandising risk.)
True enough, but it seems likely that Sisko will "die," but be
transformed into a Prophet, who could still be merchandised and appear
in future ST productions if need be.
--
// David E. Sluss (The Cynic) \\ // "I'm impatient with \\
//_________ sluss%dhp.com _________\\//__ stupidity. My people have __\\
\\ Cynics Corner Interactive //\\ learned to live without it." //
\\ http://users.dhp.com/~sluss // \\ Klaatu //
Derrick Ferguson
about 'the line must be drawn' was damn near like Picard's in 'First
Contact'. Gave me a chuckle....
PM Bowles
On Mon, 31 May 1999, David E. Sluss wrote:
> [wholesale snips]
>
> Okay, I'll bite:
>
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> >-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
> >week: Weyoun,
>
> Probably. But with the cloning business, it doesn't really matter.
They had his cloning facility destroyed, I believe, which is rather
blatant foreshadowing of her death.
> >Winn,
>
> I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
> impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
> reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
> Kai-less.
Kai Kira, anyone? Most of the early rumours I saw a few months back
indicated that she'll die. I hope not, but I expect she will.
> >probably Dukat,
>
> Agreed.
Spoiler (?)
An article in Dreamwatch magazine indicated that Marc Alaimo was
admitted to hospital after Brooks, feigning punching him, actually did
so accidentally, breaking his nose. From this we can infer that Dukat
will return rather than be left as a beggar on Bajor (where I last heard
of him), he will get to the station, he will fight Sisko and he will be
Dukat rather than Anjohl (Alaimo was apparently wearing Cardie makeup
when taken to the hospital).
> >and possibly Garak.
>
> I doubt it. Best guess is he becomes Dumb-Ar's veep.
I think he probably will - he made it home, only to die there; poetic
justice. Every one of the numerous Garak alter-egos (mirror Garak,
hol-Garak from "The Search Part II", Lethean-Garak from "Distant
Voices") has died; if that isn't foreshadowing the real Garak's fate, i
don't know what is. He may become the head of a new Obsidian Order, but
I doubt it.
> Who else? Rom and Leeta? It'd be nice, but unlikely. Nevertheless,
> there's something ghoulishly appealing about Rom being made Grand
> Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
Leeta, hopefully.
> >(I don't expect any "front-credits" characters to cash
> >it in; much as it might dramatically make sense, I can't picture that big
> >a merchandising risk.)
>
> True enough, but it seems likely that Sisko will "die," but be
> transformed into a Prophet, who could still be merchandised and appear
> in future ST productions if need be.
I still hope that if he dies, it is a proper, permanent death befitting
an ST captain, not transcending to join the Prophets - they're a
different species, after all. Apparently one main character will indeed
die, but no more.
Philip Bowles
Timothy W. Lynch
>[wholesale snips]
>Okay, I'll bite:
>tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>>-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
>>week: Weyoun,
>Probably. But with the cloning business, it doesn't really matter.
Depends on whether the cloning facilities are back up to snuff,
doesn't it?
>>Winn,
>I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
>impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
>reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
>Kai-less.
If you want to get really twisted, have Kira take over as Kai. :-)
(She's shown umpty-ump times that she has more faith in the Prophets
than most of the actual religious leaders.)
>>almost certainly Kasidy,
>And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
>Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
Counterpoint: they already did it with Dax last year, more or less.
I don't see this as beyond them at all.
>>and possibly Garak.
>I doubt it. Best guess is he becomes Dumb-Ar's veep.
Ah. A fate *worse* than death. :-)
Tim Lynch
David B.
> [wholesale snips]
>
> Okay, I'll bite:
>
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> >-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
> >week: Weyoun,
>
> >Winn,
>
> I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
> impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
> reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
> Kai-less.
I bet she dies. She'll probably deserve it after going over to the Pah
Wraiths.
> >almost certainly Kasidy,
>
> And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
> Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
Which is why it won't happen.
> >and possibly Garak.
>
> I doubt it. Best guess is he becomes Dumb-Ar's veep.
>
I think that Damar will die. Just a feeling.
> Who else? Rom and Leeta? It'd be nice, but unlikely. Nevertheless,
> there's something ghoulishly appealing about Rom being made Grand
> Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
>
Does Rom even appear in the finale?>(I don't expect any "front-credits"
characters to cash
> >it in; much as it might dramatically make sense, I can't picture that big
> >a merchandising risk.)
>
> True enough, but it seems likely that Sisko will "die," but be
> transformed into a Prophet, who could still be merchandised and appear
> in future ST productions if need be.
Sisko as Jesus Christ?
William Burns
sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com (David E. Sluss) wrote:
>tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>>-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
>>week:
>>Winn,
>I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
>impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
>reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
>Kai-less.
You have obviously not been following the SF cliches thread in rasfw:
White Hat turned villain will redeem self but redemptive act results
in own death. IOW, Winn might live long enough to tell people how
sorry she is.
-- William
Year 2000: 215 Days To Go.
PM Bowles
On Mon, 31 May 1999, David B. wrote:
> David E. Sluss wrote:
>
> > [wholesale snips]
> >
> > Okay, I'll bite:
> >
> > tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> > >-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
> > >week: Weyoun,
> >
>
>
>
> > >Winn,
> >
> > I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
> > impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
> > reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
> > Kai-less.
>
> I bet she dies. She'll probably deserve it after going over to the Pah
> Wraiths.
>
> > >almost certainly Kasidy,
> >
> > And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
> > Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
>
> Which is why it won't happen.
>
> > >and possibly Garak.
> >
> > I doubt it. Best guess is he becomes Dumb-Ar's veep.
> >
>
> I think that Damar will die. Just a feeling.
I don't think he will - they've developed Damar more in such a short
space of time (2 years - his brief appearances in seasons 4 and 5 told
us nothing about him) than with any other character barring the main
cast in their early years, and I don't think they'd undo it all in the
final episode - besides which, as has been pointed out the major races
will need leaders by the end of the show and why work Damar into
that (apparent) position just to be killed? Garak may, if he survives,
have what it takes to form and lead a new Order, but he's not the sort
to become a leader of an entire race and he certainly wouldn't want to
be in the public eye.
> > Who else? Rom and Leeta? It'd be nice, but unlikely. Nevertheless,
> > there's something ghoulishly appealing about Rom being made Grand
> > Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
> >
>
> Does Rom even appear in the finale?>(I don't expect any "front-credits"
> characters to cash
Perhaps he'll send a Ferengi warfleet to join the Federation, thus
creating even more problems for the Dominion. It's past time we saw some
serious Ferengi firepower - if you believe the new Birth of the
Federation computer game their ships are fairly well-armed and extremely
well-shielded and armoured, not to mention quick.
> > >it in; much as it might dramatically make sense, I can't picture that big
> > >a merchandising risk.)
> >
> > True enough, but it seems likely that Sisko will "die," but be
> > transformed into a Prophet, who could still be merchandised and appear
> > in future ST productions if need be.
>
> Sisko as Jesus Christ?
Let's see - his mother was a 'goddess', his father's name is
Joseph...hmmm...
Philip Bowles
Laurinda Chamberlin
>[...] (I'm particularly concerned given that I
>know Vic Fontaine is showing up in the finale. With so many things
>we *do* need to cover, why another stop into Vic's?) [...]
The writers just have these blind spots about what's really worth
doing in this final arc. Let's hope he gets no more than the 3 minutes
of air time it takes to sing a single song.
>-- When Garak was stopped outside the Jem'Hadar barracks with the
>clock ticking down on a bomb, I wondered if Garak was finally going
>to bite the dust. He's escaped so far, but I see it as very possible that
>he won't survive the rest of the rebellion. (Of course, given the twists
>we've had in both the Klingon and Ferengi successions, it could be
>that Damar will be killed and Garak will wind up leading Cardassia,
>but somehow I can't see it.)
I think Damar is more likely to be killed. They've been working so hard
on making him more sympathetic in the brief amount of remaining time
that I think they may be hoping to tug at our heartstrings as they
finally award him that true "legend" status. As for Garak becoming the
leader of Cardassia, I can't really picture it either. He's more of a
power-behind-the-throne type of guy. It would be interesting to see
what kind of post-war Cardassia he'd support, though.
>-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
>week: Weyoun, Winn, probably Dukat, probably the female
>Changeling, almost certainly Kasidy, maybe Admiral Ross, and
>possibly Garak. [...]
I think you're right about Weyoun, Winn, and Dukat, and I hope you're
right about Ross, but I think the female Changeling, Yates, and Garak
will all survive.
--
Laurinda She walked by herself, and
all places were alike to her.
David B.
> On Mon, 31 May 1999, David B. wrote:
>
> > David E. Sluss wrote:
> >
> > > [wholesale snips]
> > >
> > > Okay, I'll bite:
> > >
> > > tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> > > >-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
> > > >week: Weyoun,
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >Winn,
> > >
> > > I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
> > > impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
> > > reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
> > > Kai-less.
> >
> > I bet she dies. She'll probably deserve it after going over to the Pah
> > Wraiths.
> >
> > > >almost certainly Kasidy,
> > >
> > > And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
> > > Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
> >
> > Which is why it won't happen.
> >
> > > >and possibly Garak.
> > >
> > > I doubt it. Best guess is he becomes Dumb-Ar's veep.
> > >
> >
> > I think that Damar will die. Just a feeling.
>
> I don't think he will - they've developed Damar more in such a short
> space of time (2 years - his brief appearances in seasons 4 and 5 told
> us nothing about him) than with any other character barring the main
> cast in their early years, and I don't think they'd undo it all in the
> final episode - besides which, as has been pointed out the major races
> will need leaders by the end of the show and why work Damar into
> that (apparent) position just to be killed? Garak may, if he survives,
> have what it takes to form and lead a new Order, but he's not the sort
> to become a leader of an entire race and he certainly wouldn't want to
> be in the public eye.
It just seems that they've been trying to make him more sympathetic in the Final
Chapter episodes after they made him pretty bad in the season 6 war arc. Sounds
like they're setting him up to die.
> > > Who else? Rom and Leeta? It'd be nice, but unlikely. Nevertheless,
> > > there's something ghoulishly appealing about Rom being made Grand
> > > Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
> > >
> >
> > Does Rom even appear in the finale?>(I don't expect any "front-credits"
> > characters to cash
>
> Perhaps he'll send a Ferengi warfleet to join the Federation, thus
> creating even more problems for the Dominion. It's past time we saw some
> serious Ferengi firepower - if you believe the new Birth of the
> Federation computer game their ships are fairly well-armed and extremely
> well-shielded and armoured, not to mention quick.
Funny...they didn't come off like that in TNG, IIRC.
>
David B.
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> >sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com (David E. Sluss) writes:
> >>[wholesale snips]
>
> >>>almost certainly Kasidy,
> >
> >>And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
> >>Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
> >
> >Counterpoint: they already did it with Dax last year, more or less.
> >I don't see this as beyond them at all.
>
> Jadzia wasn't pregnant; she was taking some potion of Julian's to help
> her get pregnant, and that's, I think, a significant difference. And
> we are talking about the _series_ finale here. Do you really think
> the last DS9 episode ever will feature the death of Sisko's wife and
> unborn child? I mean, I don't expect "What You Leave Behind" to be as
> cheerful as "All Good Things...," but I can't believe it will be
> _that_ dark.
Sounds like you're going soft...
Brian Thorn
wrote:
>-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
>week: Weyoun, Winn, probably Dukat, probably the female
>Changeling, almost certainly Kasidy, maybe Admiral Ross, and
>possibly Garak. (I don't expect any "front-credits" characters to cash
>it in; much as it might dramatically make sense, I can't picture that big
>a merchandising risk.)
I'd have agreed before I saw "Dogs Of War". I don't see Kira getting
off Cardassia alive, and her death will free Odo to return to his people to pick
up the pieces after the Founders' Disease has done its work.
Brian
David E. Sluss
>>>week: Weyoun,
>
>
>Depends on whether the cloning facilities are back up to snuff,
>doesn't it?
With the war over, and travel through the wormhole permitted again,
the cloning facilities in the Gamma Quadrant could then be used.
>>>Winn,
>
>>I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
>>impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
>>reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
>>Kai-less.
>
>If you want to get really twisted, have Kira take over as Kai. :-)
>(She's shown umpty-ump times that she has more faith in the Prophets
>than most of the actual religious leaders.)
That's certainly true, but I'm sure you agree that isn't exactly a
reasonable development...
>>>almost certainly Kasidy,
>
>>And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
>>Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
>
>Counterpoint: they already did it with Dax last year, more or less.
>I don't see this as beyond them at all.
Jadzia wasn't pregnant; she was taking some potion of Julian's to help
her get pregnant, and that's, I think, a significant difference. And
we are talking about the _series_ finale here. Do you really think
the last DS9 episode ever will feature the death of Sisko's wife and
unborn child? I mean, I don't expect "What You Leave Behind" to be as
cheerful as "All Good Things...," but I can't believe it will be
_that_ dark.
David E. Sluss
>The writers just have these blind spots about what's really worth
>doing in this final arc. Let's hope he gets no more than the 3 minutes
>of air time it takes to sing a single song.
You're willing to allow three minutes? Now who's going soft? :)
David Serchay
All I can say is that some of you are right, some are wrong, and some are
in for disapointment. But at least one character we've seen before will
be unquestionably dead (and at least one will be questionably dead).
Dave, who already knows which bits the nitpickers will go after
Brian Thorn (bth...@airmail.net) wrote:
: On 31 May 1999 00:48:19 GMT, tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch)
: wrote:
: >-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
: >week: Weyoun, Winn, probably Dukat, probably the female
: >Changeling, almost certainly Kasidy, maybe Admiral Ross, and
: >possibly Garak. (I don't expect any "front-credits" characters to cash
: >it in; much as it might dramatically make sense, I can't picture that big
: >a merchandising risk.)
: I'd have agreed before I saw "Dogs Of War". I don't see Kira getting
: off Cardassia alive, and her death will free Odo to return to his people to pick
: up the pieces after the Founders' Disease has done its work.
: Brian
--
David Serchay
a013...@bc.seflin.org
Yehoshua
Laurinda Chamberlin <tcw...@netcom.com> wrote:
>tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
>>[...] (I'm particularly concerned given that I
>
>The writers just have these blind spots about what's really worth
>doing in this final arc. Let's hope he gets no more than the 3 minutes
>of air time it takes to sing a single song.
<sigh>
If we have to endure this, I hope it'll be something appropriate. How
about a cover of Vera Lynn's Blitz-era ballad "We'll Meet Again," best
known by people these days as the song that rolls during the closing
credits of Dr. Strangelove while all the mushroom clouds blossom in
the background.
They could play it during the Epic Space Battle as ship after ship
meets a firey end, and it's less than three minutes ('bout 1.5
minutes if one doesn't schmaltz it up too much).
yehoshua
PM Bowles
On Mon, 31 May 1999, Laurinda Chamberlin wrote:
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
> >[...] (I'm particularly concerned given that I
> >know Vic Fontaine is showing up in the finale. With so many things
> >we *do* need to cover, why another stop into Vic's?) [...]
>
> The writers just have these blind spots about what's really worth
> doing in this final arc. Let's hope he gets no more than the 3 minutes
> of air time it takes to sing a single song.
>
> >-- When Garak was stopped outside the Jem'Hadar barracks with the
> >clock ticking down on a bomb, I wondered if Garak was finally going
> >to bite the dust. He's escaped so far, but I see it as very possible that
> >he won't survive the rest of the rebellion. (Of course, given the twists
> >we've had in both the Klingon and Ferengi successions, it could be
> >that Damar will be killed and Garak will wind up leading Cardassia,
> >but somehow I can't see it.)
>
> I think Damar is more likely to be killed. They've been working so hard
> on making him more sympathetic in the brief amount of remaining time
> that I think they may be hoping to tug at our heartstrings as they
> finally award him that true "legend" status. As for Garak becoming the
> leader of Cardassia, I can't really picture it either. He's more of a
> power-behind-the-throne type of guy. It would be interesting to see
> what kind of post-war Cardassia he'd support, though.
>
> >-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
> >week: Weyoun, Winn, probably Dukat, probably the female
> >Changeling, almost certainly Kasidy, maybe Admiral Ross, and
> >possibly Garak. [...]
>
> I think you're right about Weyoun, Winn, and Dukat, and I hope you're
> right about Ross, but I think the female Changeling, Yates, and Garak
> will all survive.
For other characters, is Thot Gor still around? I don't know whether the
writers would leave the Breen leaderless, but I wouldn't count on him
surviving either.
Philip Bowles
PM Bowles
On Mon, 31 May 1999, David B. wrote:
> PM Bowles wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 31 May 1999, David B. wrote:
> >
> > > David E. Sluss wrote:
> > >
> > > > [wholesale snips]
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I'll bite:
> > > >
> > > > tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
> > > > >-- My spoiler-free predictions about who will *not* survive next
> > > > >week: Weyoun,
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >Winn,
> > > >
> > > > I don't think so. I think she'll redeem herself somehow, as
> > > > impossible as that seems, given what she has done, if for no other
> > > > reason than that I can't see the series closing down with Bajor
> > > > Kai-less.
> > >
> > > I bet she dies. She'll probably deserve it after going over to the Pah
> > > Wraiths.
> > >
> > > > >almost certainly Kasidy,
> > > >
> > > > And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
> > > > Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
> > >
> > > Which is why it won't happen.
> > >
> > > > >and possibly Garak.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt it. Best guess is he becomes Dumb-Ar's veep.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think that Damar will die. Just a feeling.
> >
> > I don't think he will - they've developed Damar more in such a short
> > space of time (2 years - his brief appearances in seasons 4 and 5 told
> > us nothing about him) than with any other character barring the main
> > cast in their early years, and I don't think they'd undo it all in the
> > final episode - besides which, as has been pointed out the major races
> > will need leaders by the end of the show and why work Damar into
> > that (apparent) position just to be killed? Garak may, if he survives,
> > have what it takes to form and lead a new Order, but he's not the sort
> > to become a leader of an entire race and he certainly wouldn't want to
> > be in the public eye.
>
> It just seems that they've been trying to make him more sympathetic in the Final
> Chapter episodes after they made him pretty bad in the season 6 war arc. Sounds
> like they're setting him up to die.
>
> > > > Who else? Rom and Leeta? It'd be nice, but unlikely. Nevertheless,
> > > > there's something ghoulishly appealing about Rom being made Grand
> > > > Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Does Rom even appear in the finale?>(I don't expect any "front-credits"
> > > characters to cash
> >
> > Perhaps he'll send a Ferengi warfleet to join the Federation, thus
> > creating even more problems for the Dominion. It's past time we saw some
> > serious Ferengi firepower - if you believe the new Birth of the
> > Federation computer game their ships are fairly well-armed and extremely
> > well-shielded and armoured, not to mention quick.
>
> Funny...they didn't come off like that in TNG, IIRC.
Well, they were up against a Galaxy starship - which is also very
powerful in the game. They still seem able to wipe the floor with Cardie
ships of an equivalent class in a one-to-one fight.
Philip Bowles
Geoduck
wrote:
>David E. Sluss wrote:
>
>> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>> >sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com (David E. Sluss) writes:
>> >>[wholesale snips]
>>
>> >>>almost certainly Kasidy,
>> >
>> >>And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
>> >>Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
>> >
>> >Counterpoint: they already did it with Dax last year, more or less.
>> >I don't see this as beyond them at all.
>>
>> Jadzia wasn't pregnant; she was taking some potion of Julian's to help
>> her get pregnant, and that's, I think, a significant difference. And
>> we are talking about the _series_ finale here. Do you really think
>> the last DS9 episode ever will feature the death of Sisko's wife and
>> unborn child? I mean, I don't expect "What You Leave Behind" to be as
>> cheerful as "All Good Things...," but I can't believe it will be
>> _that_ dark.
>
>Sounds like you're going soft...
I agree with Mr. Sluss- Sisko is probably going to be elevated to
godhood, leaving a pregnant Kasidy behind to live on Bajor. (Over on
rec.arts.sf.tv, Gharlane called this a couple of months ago...)
------
Geoduck
geo...@usa.net
http://www.olywa.net/cook
Diane Fitzsimmons
>
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
it could be
> >that Damar will be killed and Garak will wind up leading Cardassia,
> >but somehow I can't see it.)
>
> on making him more sympathetic in the brief amount of remaining time
> that I think they may be hoping to tug at our heartstrings as they
> finally award him that true "legend" status. As for Garak becoming the
> leader of Cardassia, I can't really picture it either. He's more of a
> power-behind-the-throne type of guy. It would be interesting to see
> what kind of post-war Cardassia he'd support, though.
>
Any possibility that Kira could stay behind to help build a new
Cardassia? That would be an even greater irony than her helping with
the resistance. And it does look as if Odo will go off to join the
Great Link.
Diane
Terrafamilia
Yehoshua wrote:
> In article <tcwwbhFC...@netcom.com>,
> Laurinda Chamberlin <tcw...@netcom.com> wrote:
> >tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
> >
> >>[...] (I'm particularly concerned given that I
> >>know Vic Fontaine is showing up in the finale. With so many things
> >>we *do* need to cover, why another stop into Vic's?) [...]
> >
> >The writers just have these blind spots about what's really worth
> >doing in this final arc. Let's hope he gets no more than the 3 minutes
> >of air time it takes to sing a single song.
>
> <sigh>
>
> If we have to endure this, I hope it'll be something appropriate. How
> about a cover of Vera Lynn's Blitz-era ballad "We'll Meet Again," best
> known by people these days as the song that rolls during the closing
> credits of Dr. Strangelove while all the mushroom clouds blossom in
> the background.
>
> They could play it during the Epic Space Battle as ship after ship
> meets a firey end, and it's less than three minutes ('bout 1.5
> minutes if one doesn't schmaltz it up too much).
SEMI-SPOILER!
!
!
!
!
!
!
Unfortunately, that is not the song. I was hoping for either it or the one
that goes "I'll be seeing you, in all of the familier places..." but, alas,
that is not to be.
Ciao,
Terrafamilia
Drew Gilmore
> > serious Ferengi firepower - if you believe the new Birth of the
> > Federation computer game their ships are fairly well-armed and extremely
> > well-shielded and armoured, not to mention quick.
> Funny...they didn't come off like that in TNG, IIRC.
In the Ferengis' first appearance ever, Data (or was it Worf?) notes that
their ship is comparable in armorment and weapons to the E-D, though
probably different in various ways. Nothing I know have has implied
ferengi firepower since then. *shrug*
--
Drew Gilmore http://www.unc.edu/~drewg
Morehead Planetarium http://www.morehead.unc.edu
Educational Assistant * Web Designer * Reservation Coordinator * etc.
"Appeasement, said Winston Churchill, consists of being nice to a crocodile in the
hope that he will eat you last. At the moment, the biggest crocodile in the world
is Microsoft, and everybody is busy sucking up to it." - John Naughton, the London Observer
Joe
>You have obviously not been following the SF cliches thread in rasfw:
Pardon me, but what group is "rasfw"?
Joe
Lee Ann Rucker
>-- No Alamo references for the first time in a very long while.
But there was a waste-disposal ref :-(
--
--
Working at Apple for Javasoft
lru...@aruba.apple.com
Also at (but not very often) leeann...@eng.sun.com
PM Bowles
On Tue, 1 Jun 1999, Brian Barjenbruch wrote:
> > For other characters, is Thot Gor still around? I don't know whether the
> > writers would leave the Breen leaderless, but I wouldn't count on him
> > surviving either.
>
> I think he's already dead. The one they have now is Thot Pran.
> ("Thot" would appear to be a Breen military rank, probably equivalent
> to a general or admiral.)
Well, it's a good bet that if Weyoun dies, it's a result of an attack on
Cardassia - and so will probably take his current Breen and Cardie
lapdogs with him.
Philip Bowles
William Burns
FrogPriest
>>almost certainly Kasidy,
>
>And the unborn baby? No way. That's really depressing, and this _is_
>Star Trek (and Star Trek writers) were talking about here.
But there is an arc to the first epsiode movie with the death of Sisko's first
wife and the survival of his son Jake.
George the Dragon Slayer--remove alpha for replies
Oscark24
>in for disapointment. But at least one character we've seen before will
>be unquestionably dead (and at least one will be questionably dead).
The National Enquiier spilt the beans about what happens in the DS9 finale over
a month ago!
Oscar
David B.
> David B. (both...@hotmail.com) wrote:
> > > serious Ferengi firepower - if you believe the new Birth of the
> > > Federation computer game their ships are fairly well-armed and extremely
> > > well-shielded and armoured, not to mention quick.
>
> > Funny...they didn't come off like that in TNG, IIRC.
>
> In the Ferengis' first appearance ever, Data (or was it Worf?) notes that
> their ship is comparable in armorment and weapons to the E-D, though
> probably different in various ways. Nothing I know have has implied
> ferengi firepower since then. *shrug*
They basically gave up on the Ferengi as any kind of serious threat after the first
season of TNG so it's no surprise they never showed us how pwerful the Ferengi ships
were.
David B.
I hate it when the National Enquirer is right...
Laurinda Chamberlin
>tcw...@netcom.com (Laurinda Chamberlin) wrote:
>>The writers just have these blind spots about what's really worth
>>doing in this final arc. Let's hope he gets no more than the 3 minutes
>>of air time it takes to sing a single song.
>You're willing to allow three minutes? Now who's going soft? :)
No no no no no -- it's just a prayer it won't be any worse than that.
<gag>
Shawn Hill
:> Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
: Leeta, hopefully.
the leeta-hate-squad is really disturbing to me. What'd she ever do to
you?
: I still hope that if he dies, it is a proper, permanent death befitting
: an ST captain, not transcending to join the Prophets - they're a :
different species, after all. Apparently one main character will indeed :
die, but no more.
Are they a different species? His mother was at least part-Prophet.
Shawn
PM Bowles
On 2 Jun 1999, Shawn Hill wrote:
> PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> :> Dingus, only to buy the farm a week later...
>
> : Leeta, hopefully.
>
> the leeta-hate-squad is really disturbing to me. What'd she ever do to
> you?
Isn't having a major role in "Let He Who Is Without Sin" incriminating
enough? She's an air-headed bimbo with a terribly aannoying voice who
wastes time in episodes which would be better served spending the time
on...well, anything else.
> : I still hope that if he dies, it is a proper, permanent death befitting
> : an ST captain, not transcending to join the Prophets - they're a :
> different species, after all. Apparently one main character will indeed :
> die, but no more.
>
> Are they a different species? His mother was at least part-Prophet.
His mother was possessed by a Prophet, but there's never been any
suggestion that she was biologically anything but human, and biology is
what determines the species of the parents' offspring.
Philip Bowles
Shawn Hill
: Isn't having a major role in "Let He Who Is Without Sin" incriminating
: enough? She's an air-headed bimbo with a terribly aannoying voice who
: wastes time in episodes which would be better served spending the time
: on...well, anything else.
She was the best part of LHWIWS. I liked the idea of she and Julian
formaly dissolving their frivolous relationship. It was a signal that
Julian was going to grow up a bit, and become more serious, which he
eventually did. She's shown on several occasions that she's much less
stupid than she looks. I think it's rampant sexism to dismiss her as a
bimbo when she's more than that.
Join the ILL Squad (I Love Leta!).
:> Are they a different species? His mother was at least part-Prophet.
: His mother was possessed by a Prophet, but there's never been any
: suggestion that she was biologically anything but human, and biology is
: what determines the species of the parents' offspring.
I think there have been such suggestions. How did she and Joseph meet?
Where did she come from? Is that really her in Ben's visions, or just a
fiction of his mind?
Shawn
* . * . * . * .
Q: "Am I still your woman?"
A: "You're the captain's woman...until he says you're not."
. * . * . *sh...@fas.harvard.edu
PM Bowles
On 2 Jun 1999, Shawn Hill wrote:
> PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> : Isn't having a major role in "Let He Who Is Without Sin" incriminating
> : enough? She's an air-headed bimbo with a terribly aannoying voice who
> : wastes time in episodes which would be better served spending the time
> : on...well, anything else.
>
> She was the best part of LHWIWS.
Well, I shouldn't imagine getting rid of her could have made it any
worse if that's what you mean.
I liked the idea of she and Julian
> formaly dissolving their frivolous relationship.
Which had been mentioned, what, two or three times before? Not worth
devoting a large part of even DS9's worst episode to resolving.
It was a signal that
> Julian was going to grow up a bit, and become more serious, which he
> eventually did. She's shown on several occasions that she's much less
> stupid than she looks.
But still incredibly dense nonetheless. It would be extremely hard for
her to be as stupid as she looks.
I think it's rampant sexism to dismiss her as a
> bimbo when she's more than that.
In what way is she more? She was introduced because Dax, unlike Troi
before her and Kes after her, had actiually started to develop into a
well-rounded character in more than the physical sense. What is sexist
is that the writers chose to introduce a dim bimbo because they felt
that the male audience wouldn't find an intelligent woman with a strong
personality attractive; it isn't sexist to criticise Leeta for what the
character is.
> :> Are they a different species? His mother was at least part-Prophet.
>
> : His mother was possessed by a Prophet, but there's never been any
> : suggestion that she was biologically anything but human, and biology is
> : what determines the species of the parents' offspring.
>
> I think there have been such suggestions. How did she and Joseph meet?
> Where did she come from? Is that really her in Ben's visions, or just a
> fiction of his mind?
She was a human who was possessed in order to pursue a relationship with
Joe Sisko and who left to lead her own life once the Prophet left her;
she was no more part-Prophet than Kira in "The Reckoning". In the
visions, it is a Prophet who takes the form of someone Ben knew, just as
they all are, probably the Prophet who possessed his mother.
Philip Bowles
Matt Frisch
the ether:
>In what way is she more? She was introduced because Dax, unlike Troi
>before her and Kes after her, had actiually started to develop into a
>well-rounded character in more than the physical sense.
Because there is virtue in physical sense roundedness. Why must all female
characters in ST be deep and brilliant? Many of the men certainly aren't.
PM Bowles
On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:06:40 GMT, PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> scribed into
> the ether:
>
> >In what way is she more? She was introduced because Dax, unlike Troi
> >before her and Kes after her, had actiually started to develop into a
> >well-rounded character in more than the physical sense.
>
> Because there is virtue in physical sense roundedness.
Only in the sense that it increases ratings.
Why must all female
> characters in ST be deep and brilliant?
They mustn't; Kira isn't especially 'brilliant', but she certainly isn't
brainless. On the other hand, none of the men we ever see are quite so
dim-witted as Leeta, and if you're going to have a recurring character
with some interest from the audience, he or she needs a personality,
another think Leeta lacks.
Philip Bowles
Shawn Hill
: On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:06:40 GMT, PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> scribed into
: the ether:
:>In what way is she more? She was introduced because Dax, unlike Troi
:>before her and Kes after her, had actiually started to develop into a
:>well-rounded character in more than the physical sense.
: Because there is virtue in physical sense roundedness. Why must all female
: characters in ST be deep and brilliant? Many of the men certainly aren't.
Leeta has love, loyalty, emotional insight and a sense of fun. So she's
not brilliant, so her morals are questionable ... why demonize her for
that? Why not accept her the way she is? Not every character has to be a
warrior/scientist to be good or worth our attention.
Shawn
~~***~~*~*~*~*~*~~~~*~~*~*~~~**~*~*~*~*~*~**~**~*
"I know what ya done
I saw ya in my crystal
I saw ya making love
I'm gonna get my pistol" --lene lovich
sh...@fas.harvard.edu*~*~**~~*~*~**~*~*~**~*~**~*
Maureen Goldman
> Leeta has love, loyalty, emotional insight and a sense of fun. So she's
> not brilliant, so her morals are questionable ... why demonize her for
> that? Why not accept her the way she is? Not every character has to be a
> warrior/scientist to be good or worth our attention.
No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
morals?
--
Maureen Goldman
(For email, please clear away the FOG.)
PeterTHX
Maureen Goldman <inksl...@sunshine.net> wrote in message
> No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
> morals?
> --
>
> Maureen Goldman
>
David B.
> Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
> > Leeta has love, loyalty, emotional insight and a sense of fun. So she's
> > not brilliant, so her morals are questionable ... why demonize her for
> > that? Why not accept her the way she is? Not every character has to be a
> > warrior/scientist to be good or worth our attention.
>
> No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
> morals?
I can't recall anything wrong with Leeta's morals.
Mi
wrote:
>
>Maureen Goldman <inksl...@sunshine.net> wrote in message
>> No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
>> morals?
>> --
>>
>> Maureen Goldman
>>
>Why did she get a boob job?
Is that immoral? Besides, she's a pretty minor character. If they
had done a few episodes that really focused her character better we
would know more about who she is. I think she is fine as the role she
plays. The not-super-bright gal/guy with a good heart, and ocasionally
attractive body, is not exactly unknown in films and literature.
Rich
****************************************************************************
"One breath of a great whale contains more than the sum of human knowledge."
Penelope Smith
****************************************************************************
Matt Frisch
>
>Maureen Goldman <inksl...@sunshine.net> wrote in message
>> No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
>> morals?
>> --
>>
>> Maureen Goldman
>>
>Why did she get a boob job?
It isn't a boob job, it is that low-gravity enviornment, coupled with the
24th century wonderbra.
Matt Frisch
the ether:
>
>
>On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:06:40 GMT, PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> scribed into
>> the ether:
>>
>> >In what way is she more? She was introduced because Dax, unlike Troi
>> >before her and Kes after her, had actiually started to develop into a
>> >well-rounded character in more than the physical sense.
>>
>> Because there is virtue in physical sense roundedness.
>
>Only in the sense that it increases ratings.
There are real life people who are physically round, with little else going
for them. And ratings are good. I personally enjoy eye candy on a show, be
it a well designed battle scene, or a saline enhanced busom.
> Why must all female
>> characters in ST be deep and brilliant?
>
>They mustn't; Kira isn't especially 'brilliant', but she certainly isn't
>brainless. On the other hand, none of the men we ever see are quite so
>dim-witted as Leeta,
Lt. Barclay....a decent engineer, but otherwise a complete doofus.
The packleds...
Most every federation admiral...
> and if you're going to have a recurring character
>with some interest from the audience, he or she needs a personality,
>another think Leeta lacks.
I always thought she had a personality. Yes, she was mainly picked for
being a surgically enhanced fitness trainer, but there was definately more
to Leeta at the end of the series than there was when she first showed up
trying to unionize the bar.
Shawn Hill
:> Leeta has love, loyalty, emotional insight and a sense of fun. So she's
:> not brilliant, so her morals are questionable ... why demonize her for
:> that? Why not accept her the way she is? Not every character has to be a
:> warrior/scientist to be good or worth our attention.
: No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
: morals?
: --
Well, I guess I meant the way the Dabo girls seem to be prostitutes. Which
could make a guy uncomfortable is he was married to one. This is hard to
put into words, though, without sounding like I disapprove, which I don't.
Shawn
PM Bowles
On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:38:38 GMT, PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> scribed into
> the ether:
>
> >
> >
> >On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Matt Frisch wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:06:40 GMT, PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> scribed into
> >> the ether:
> >>
> >> >In what way is she more? She was introduced because Dax, unlike Troi
> >> >before her and Kes after her, had actiually started to develop into a
> >> >well-rounded character in more than the physical sense.
> >>
> >> Because there is virtue in physical sense roundedness.
> >
> >Only in the sense that it increases ratings.
>
> There are real life people who are physically round, with little else going
> for them.
There are indeed, and frankly it's sad, not in any way virtuous. I
shouldn't imagine I'd like the real ones any more than I like Leeta in
any case.
And ratings are good.
From the producers' point of view, yes. From the viewers' point of view,
if it comes from cheap publicity stunts rather than good storytelling,
probably not. Admittedly DS9 hasn't gone too far down that road;
firstly, Leeta doesn't appear all that often and secondly she isn't all
that attractive IMO - she certainly wouldn't grab the ratings Voy's
producers count on from Jeri Ryan.
I personally enjoy eye candy on a show, be
> it a well designed battle scene, or a saline enhanced busom.
I feel there's a difference between physical attractiveness and breast
size, and I don't find Leeta attractive. I shouldn't imagine I'd be more
forgiving of her vacuity if I did.
> > Why must all female
> >> characters in ST be deep and brilliant?
> >
> >They mustn't; Kira isn't especially 'brilliant', but she certainly isn't
> >brainless. On the other hand, none of the men we ever see are quite so
> >dim-witted as Leeta,
>
> Lt. Barclay....a decent engineer, but otherwise a complete doofus.
But not stupid, otherwise he wouldn't have been a good engineer - most
engineering in ST seems to have more to do with producing theoretical
solutions than cobbling things together.
> The packleds...
In one episode, where if I recall they were the villains.
> Most every federation admiral...
:-)
> > and if you're going to have a recurring character
> >with some interest from the audience, he or she needs a personality,
> >another think Leeta lacks.
>
> I always thought she had a personality. Yes, she was mainly picked for
> being a surgically enhanced fitness trainer, but there was definately more
> to Leeta at the end of the series than there was when she first showed up
> trying to unionize the bar.
Well, I haven't seen the end of the series yet, but I haven't noticed
any difference between Leeta in "Explorers" (her first appearance, I
believe) and Leeta in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" (the most recent
episode I've seen her in), except for the fact that she is now married.
Philip Bowles
Maureen Goldman
> Maureen Goldman <inksl...@sunshine.net> wrote in message
> > No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
> > morals?
> >"PeterTHX" <pete...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Why did she get a boob job?
If something like that took place in an episode, I believe I'd remember.
heinlein
>[snip]
>
> > > Why must all female
> > >> characters in ST be deep and brilliant?
> > >
> > >They mustn't; Kira isn't especially 'brilliant', but she certainly isn't
> > >brainless. On the other hand, none of the men we ever see are quite so
> > >dim-witted as Leeta,
> >
> > Lt. Barclay....a decent engineer, but otherwise a complete doofus.
>
> But not stupid, otherwise he wouldn't have been a good engineer - most
> engineering in ST seems to have more to do with producing theoretical
> solutions than cobbling things together.
>
> > The packleds...
>
> In one episode, where if I recall they were the villains.
>
> > Most every federation admiral...
>
True, but at least half of them seem to be women (more than that in
the last few seasons of TNG)
> :-
Maureen Goldman
> : No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
> : morals?
>Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
> Well, I guess I meant the way the Dabo girls seem to be prostitutes. Which
> could make a guy uncomfortable is he was married to one. This is hard to
> put into words, though, without sounding like I disapprove, which I don't.
The Dabo girls were croupiers for the game of Dabo, as well as being
cocktail waitresses. Quark had holosuite programs which seemed to cater to
all whims, but these did not use real people.
GeneK
Cardassian occupation. Dabo girls may retain a certain unsavory
rep from those days...
GeneK
Maureen Goldman
> > The Dabo girls were croupiers for the game of Dabo, as well as being
> > cocktail waitresses. Quark had holosuite programs which seemed to cater to
> > all whims, but these did not use real people.
> GeneK <gene@genek_hates_spammers.com> wrote:
> I would guess, offhand, that this was not the case during the
> Cardassian occupation. Dabo girls may retain a certain unsavory
> rep from those days...
There has been nothing on the show to indicate that Dabo girls are as
considered other than law-abiding, respectable citizens. I don't believe
that prostitution has ever been mentioned in connection with them or at
all, so we have no way of knowing whether a stigma is attached in that time
period. Dabo itself was created by the Ferengi.
As we know, during the occupation, the Cardassians took women from various
sources.
Matt Frisch
the ether:
>
>
>On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:38:38 GMT, PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> scribed into
>> the ether:
> I personally enjoy eye candy on a show, be
>> it a well designed battle scene, or a saline enhanced busom.
>
>I feel there's a difference between physical attractiveness and breast
>size, and I don't find Leeta attractive. I shouldn't imagine I'd be more
>forgiving of her vacuity if I did.
Hmm, well, there is your problem right there. I've always had a thing for
short-haired brunettes. Plus, the nose wrinkles are extremely
complementary, on both Leeta and Kira...heck, even Kai Opaka.
>> >They mustn't; Kira isn't especially 'brilliant', but she certainly isn't
>> >brainless. On the other hand, none of the men we ever see are quite so
>> >dim-witted as Leeta,
>>
>> Lt. Barclay....a decent engineer, but otherwise a complete doofus.
>
>But not stupid, otherwise he wouldn't have been a good engineer - most
>engineering in ST seems to have more to do with producing theoretical
>solutions than cobbling things together.
Nevertheless, he is potrayed in a less than flattering manner.
Matt Frisch
into the ether:
>PM Bowles wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>> > > Why must all female
>> > >> characters in ST be deep and brilliant?
>> > >
>> > >They mustn't; Kira isn't especially 'brilliant', but she certainly isn't
>> > >brainless. On the other hand, none of the men we ever see are quite so
>> > >dim-witted as Leeta,
>> >
>> > Lt. Barclay....a decent engineer, but otherwise a complete doofus.
>>
>> But not stupid, otherwise he wouldn't have been a good engineer - most
>> engineering in ST seems to have more to do with producing theoretical
>> solutions than cobbling things together.
>>
>> > The packleds...
>>
>> In one episode, where if I recall they were the villains.
>>
>> > Most every federation admiral...
>>
>
> True, but at least half of them seem to be women (more than that in
>the last few seasons of TNG)
Well, aside from the perennial thorn in picard's side, admiral
necheyev....how many female admirals have we really seen?
PM Bowles
As I recall, Nechayev is the only female admiral to have appeared on
DS9, though I think there were others on TNG.
Philip Bowles
Shawn Hill
:> Maureen Goldman <inksl...@sunshine.net> wrote:
:> : No problem about most of this, but what is questionable about Leeta's
:> : morals?
:>Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
:> Well, I guess I meant the way the Dabo girls seem to be prostitutes. Which
:> could make a guy uncomfortable is he was married to one. This is hard to
:> put into words, though, without sounding like I disapprove, which I don't.
: The Dabo girls were croupiers for the game of Dabo, as well as being
: cocktail waitresses. Quark had holosuite programs which seemed to cater to
: all whims, but these did not use real people.
I always got the impression that prostitution was not illegal on DS9, so
nobody minded. Surely Quark would not so object to employing his
"croupiers." they certainly do more entertaining than just spinning the
wheels.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
: There has been nothing on the show to indicate that Dabo girls are as
: considered other than law-abiding, respectable citizens. I don't believe
: that prostitution has ever been mentioned in connection with them or at
and how do we know that prostitution would prevent them from respect or
abiding the laws? DS9 does not exist purely under Federation control,
it's an interaction of various cultures, with Bajoran jurisdiction as well.
: all, so we have no way of knowing whether a stigma is attached in that time
: period. Dabo itself was created by the Ferengi.
: As we know, during the occupation, the Cardassians took women from various
: sources.
And men as well, for all we know.
Shawn
John C. Baker
> These are all the female Admirals who've appeared in Trek I can think
> of:
>
> DS9:
> Admiral Alynna Necheyev, 'The Maquis, Part II' and 'The Search, Part II'
> Admiral T'Lara, 'Rules of Engagement.'
> Admiral Sitak, 'Favor the Bold.'
There was also a female admiral in "Past Prolouge," the second DS9
episode, that Kira went over Sisko's head to speak with.
PM Bowles
On Mon, 7 Jun 1999, Nopel wrote:
> On Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:04:27 GMT, PM Bowles <pb6...@bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 5 Jun 1999, Matt Frisch wrote:
> >> Well, aside from the perennial thorn in picard's side, admiral
> >> necheyev....how many female admirals have we really seen?
>
> >As I recall, Nechayev is the only female admiral to have appeared on
> >DS9, though I think there were others on TNG.
>
> These are all the female Admirals who've appeared in Trek I can think
> of:
>
> DS9:
> Admiral Alynna Necheyev, 'The Maquis, Part II' and 'The Search, Part II'
> Admiral T'Lara, 'Rules of Engagement.'
> Admiral Sitak, 'Favor the Bold.'
>
> TNG:
> Admiral Gromek, 'The Emissary.'
> Admiral Connaught Rossa, 'Suddenly Human.'
> Admiral Norah Satie (retired), 'The Drumhead.'
> Fleet Admiral Shanti, 'Redemption, Part II.'
> Fleet Admiral Brackett, 'Unification, Part I.'
> Admiral Brand, 'The First Duty.'
> Admiral Margaret Blackwell, 'The Pegasus.'
And, of course, Nechayev ("Chain of Command Part I", "Descent Part I",
"Pre-Emptive Strike").
Philip Bowles
GeneK
GeneK
David B. Mears
>Dabo itself was created by the Ferengi.
It's been stated, in an episode, that Tonga (sp?) was created by the
Ferengi. Has the same been stated for Dabo? I dont' recall it? You
hardly (ever?) see Ferengi playing Dabo; it always seems to be the
guests on the station.
David B. Mears
Hewlett-Packard
Cupertino CA
me...@cup.hp.com
Timothy Bruening
> > > The Dabo girls were croupiers for the game of Dabo, as well as being
> > > cocktail waitresses. Quark had holosuite programs which seemed to cater to
> > > all whims, but these did not use real people.
>
> > I would guess, offhand, that this was not the case during the
> > Cardassian occupation. Dabo girls may retain a certain unsavory
> > rep from those days...
>
> considered other than law-abiding, respectable citizens. I don't believe
> that prostitution has ever been mentioned in connection with them or at
> As we know, during the occupation, the Cardassians took women from various
> sources.