[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Valiant"
Timothy W. Lynch
WARNING: Brave enough to want spoilers for DS9's "Valiant"? If
so, they're below.
In brief: Rather profoundly neutral.
======
Written by: Ronald D. Moore
Directed by: Michael Vejar
Brief summary: Jake and Nog are rescued from certain death by a
group of cadets on a secret mission.
======
For the last several weeks, every DS9 episode has provoked a strong
reaction in me, either positive ("In the Pale Moonlight", "Inquisition",
and "The Reckoning") or negative ("Wrongs Darker Than Death or
Night" and especially "His Way"). I suppose that after five weeks'
worth of major ups and downs, we were about due for an episode that
did absolutely nothing either way. "Valiant" was just such a show:
there was very little about it that made me glad I was watching, but
very little that damned the episode either.
The basic premise was fine; it's a little bit of a stretch to have a ship
full of cadets survive after fighting behind enemy lines for eight
months, but not completely out of line. I didn't see any real need to
do a story about them (and still don't, even after the show's done),
but logically it's at least plausible.
Less plausible are the circumstances surrounding the U.S.S. Valiant.
First, the rescue of Jake and Nog seems awfully difficult to swallow:
if they've been in Dominion-controlled space for eight months, I don't
see why they'd so close to the Federation at this particular point in
time. Jake and Nog left from a starbase that was presumably still in
Federation territory, and the attack apparently came minutes afterward.
Even if you assume a delay between the teaser and the first act, that
still puts the Valiant hours or even *minutes* from Fed territory when
they rescued Jake and Nog. That strikes me as silly: if you want to
run a secret mission and play wargames, you don't do it when you're
standing right next to Mommy and Daddy.
Second, a mission to circumnavigate the Federation strikes me as a
really long mission to send cadets on. The sucker's at least eight
thousand light-years across, according to Picard in "First Contact" --
making a trip around it last only three months, as stated in the show,
would make it well beyond trivial to get anywhere *in* the Federation
quickly, which hasn't been the case much of the time. (We've been
told elsewhere that it takes eight weeks at maximum warp to get from
DS9 to Cestus III, which is presumably a Federation world.) This is
a nit, but one that stuck out.
Third, and perhaps most importantly, I can't for the life of me figure
out how and when "Captain" Watters got the secret orders to get
information on the Dominion battleship. Either the orders were sent
recently, in which case Starfleet is assigning crucial missions to a ship
listed as missing and the existence of which they can no longer
confirm, or they were sent before Captain Ramirez's death, in which
case Starfleet knew about that particular battleship immediately after or
even before the war started. Neither one seems to fit.
All that said, however, the show's main purpose was to give us
another look at Red Squad and to show Nog getting in way over his
head. Both of those are certainly decent goals, but they weren't
achieved particularly well.
Primarily, I think that's because of the characters on board the Valiant.
The only regular characters who got any substantial screen time at all
were Jake and Nog, and Jake was mostly taken out of the picture
about halfway through the show, leaving Nog. Unfortunately, Nog
just doesn't have that compelling quality to him which allows a show
to exist around him and still work. Sisko and Kira do, owing to their
backgrounds and often-superior ways of getting them into trouble;
O'Brien does even when badly written, thanks to Colm Meaney;
Quark ... well, frequently doesn't, but they seem to keep trying
anyway. Nog doesn't strike me as a character with interesting enough
conflicts to be worth watching solo for an entire hour, though, and as
game as Aron Eisenberg is, he doesn't have that Meaneyesque ability
to keep one riveted to the screen regardless of story. As a result, the
focus on Nog tended to drift a great deal.
The cadets of Red Squad, alas, didn't fare much better. The only two
cadets whose heads we got into even a little were Captain Tim Watters
and Chief Dorian Collins. Paul Popowich (Watters) got across some
of the force of will needed to make Watters' crew follow him, but not
enough; rather than feeling pity for a cadet who got in over his head,
we just wound up thinking "ah, we're aboard the U.S.S. Loony."
Ashley Brianne McDonogh (Collins) did somewhat better, but her
main role in the show was to be the homesick cadet who survives,
much as one might expect in a teen slasher movie from the mid-1980s.
Apart from a few glimmers here and there that made me see the
characters as actual people with actual emotions (such as Dorian's
speech about growing up on the moon), Jake and Nog more or less
seemed to be surrounded by stock characters, many of them doing the
usual snotty-teenager bit (particularly David Drew Gallagher as
Shepard, whom we'd seen before in "Paradise Lost" and didn't
impress me then either).
That left the plot -- and while the eventual outcome of it was in little
doubt, there were a few small twists along the way. The basic gist of
"captain wants a blaze of glory and fails" isn't exactly new, nor is the
"lone outsider as voice of reason" concept we got through Jake here.
What was somewhat interesting, however, is how completely
ineffective Jake's arguments were. I'm not surprised he couldn't get
through to Nog, but I was expecting him to convince a couple of key
players that the mission wouldn't work. Instead, he did exactly what
Watters wanted him to do: he made a statement that let Watters
reinforce Red Squad's sense of immortality and of shared glory. Had
someone like Sisko made the same attempt, I'd have been shocked at
how naively he was tricked -- but Jake *is* still young enough to be
naive in that kind of position, and I found it interesting.
Of some other interest was the manner in which the mission failed.
Since it was more or less a given that it would (since that was the only
way for Watters to get his comeuppance), there seemed to be a few
ways in which that could happen. One option was that Jake could
find a way to stop the mission, either by sabotage or by contacting the
Defiant; another was that the Defiant could come screaming out of
nowhere and save the Valiant at the last second. Given the number of
"Star Wars" riffs we were making from the briefing scene onwards, I
fully expected to see the Defiant come riding in a la the Millennium
Falcon. Instead, Moore let the tragedy unfold more fully: the Valiant
and very nearly everyone aboard her were killed in fairly short order.
(The realization that even a direct hit on the Magical Technical Flaw
didn't work and wasn't going to was nicely staged.) Of course, after
that there was the usual convenience of the Defiant being the ship
which just happens to find the escape pod, but there we are.
The closing scene was interesting as well; rather than issue a blanket
indictment, Moore (through Nog) basically said "let the audience
decide" whether these people were brave or deluded and foolish. Had
the earlier writing and acting of the characters been stronger, that
might actually have led to some interesting debate; as it is, I'm not
sure anyone was three-dimensional enough for the argument to be
worthwhile.
Other thoughts:
-- Given that the last time we saw Red Squad, they'd been used as part
of Admiral Leyton's plan to take over Starfleet from within, I'm a bit
surprised to see them in such good standing, and I'm *really*
surprised to see them admiring Sisko so much, since he's the one who
brought them down.
-- Although the concept of circumnavigating a three-dimensional space
like the Federation is reasonable (just ask Magellan), it made me
wonder why all the tactical maps we see are two-dimensional.
Production restrictions strike me as the main reason, but just once I'd
like to see a sense of exactly how Cardassian/Dominion and
Federation territories relate to each other.
-- Early on, I found Watters more compelling than I really felt was
deserved, and about halfway through the second act I realized why:
he bore a remarkable resemblance to a young Captain Christopher
Pike, whom I've always liked. I don't know if the casting was
intentional or not, but it was effective. (Given that the Magic
Technobabble Radiation used in the plan this week was delta
radiation, however, I'm convinced that the casting was either
intentional or at least noticed while fine-tuning the script: delta
radiation is what crippled Pike, which seems appropriate.)
-- On the other hand, Courtney Peldon (Farris) struck me as someone
trying really really hard to be Jeri Ryan (Juliet from the late, lamented
"Dark Skies" and Seven of Nine from the not-yet-late-but-often-
lamentable Voyager) and not quite pulling it off.
-- From the briefing scene onwards, the "Star Wars"-related MST
moments were flying fast and furious. "We've found a flaw in the
design of their antimatter storage system," for instance, absolutely
begged for an immediate "A small thermal exhaust port, right below
the main port." Some others:
"All decks report ready, sir." "Red Two, standing by..."
"Now, let's get that battleship and we can all go home." "You're all
clear, kid!"
<shot of the battleship> "Look at the SIZE of that thing!"
-- And one non-"Star Wars" MST: "Jake ... can I call you Jake?" "Sure
thing, dickweed. Can I call you dickweed?" [Okay, so the word we
used was a bit stronger ... but this is still vaguely a family review.
:-) ]
-- As Watters is giving his final pep talk, the camera briefly focuses on
a Vulcan. He looked an awful lot like the one at the end of "First
Contact", but there was no credit for the actor. I'm curious.
-- The effects for the various battle scenes were quite good, both early
on in the episode and during the assault on the battleship. (I
particularly liked the shot of the Valiant going between two struts,
seen only on the Valiant's viewscreen.)
That pretty much does it. "Valiant" struck me as being both annoying
and very watchable in roughly equal measure; it's not one that I'm in
any real mood to see again, but it's not one that makes me want to lob
a brick through the television either. It was just ... there -- which is
certainly better than some things we've had this season, but certainly
not what I'd like to expect from week to week.
Wrapping up:
Writing: Some really questionable logic in the premise, but otherwise
a solid story; not much depth, but a few good choices.
Directing: Some nice dissolves during the preparations; far from
Vejar's best work, but fine.
Acting: Nobody came across as particularly compelling, and a couple
of the cadets were actively annoying.
OVERALL: 5; about as ordinary as they come.
NEXT WEEK:
Quark! In! Drag!
Err...
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"He may have been a hero. He may even have been a great man. But
in the end, he was a bad captain."
-- Nog
--
Copyright 1998, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
James C. Causey Jr.
"-- As Watters is giving his final pep talk, the camera briefly focuses
on
a Vulcan. He looked an awful lot like the one at the end of "First
Contact", but there was no credit for the actor. I'm curious."
The actor who played the Vulcan at the end of First Contact is a
personal friend of mine here in San Francisco. However, he has retired
from show business, and I can assure you that was not him in the
episode.
Regards,
James
--
Boner1
Mystery Science Theater 3000 Fan Club (MSTie) member #64036
http://idt.net/~boner1/
Otteramp
I give it a ten. I thouht it was very ood. I liked the acting and the
chaaracters. It was an episode that I would be happy to see again.
DMorse1701
>
>I give it a ten. I thouht it was very good. I liked the acting and the
>chaaracters. It was an episode that I would be happy to see again.
I must Agree! Perfect 10! I like Nog very much. He should be on next Star Trek
series.
David
Robert Oliver
> did absolutely nothing either way. "Valiant" was just such a show:
> there was very little about it that made me glad I was watching, but
> very little that damned the episode either.
Agreed. Nothing really wrong, but nothing spectacular. I like tech
things and such, so it was neat to see another Defiant class ship and
all, but that's not a good basis to judge an episode :)
> they rescued Jake and Nog. That strikes me as silly: if you want to
> run a secret mission and play wargames, you don't do it when you're
> standing right next to Mommy and Daddy.
Based on their mission they were not choosing their location--they were
trying to track down the Dominion battleship. If the battleship was near
Fed lines then so would Valiant, as it struggled to catch up with its
"inefficient" warp engine.
> Second, a mission to circumnavigate the Federation strikes me as a
> really long mission to send cadets on. The sucker's at least eight
> thousand light-years across, according to Picard in "First Contact" --
> making a trip around it last only three months, as stated in the show,
> would make it well beyond trivial to get anywhere *in* the Federation
> quickly, which hasn't been the case much of the time. (We've been
> told elsewhere that it takes eight weeks at maximum warp to get from
> DS9 to Cestus III, which is presumably a Federation world.) This is
> a nit, but one that stuck out.
Not to mention they said to circumnavigate the ENTIRE Federation. A
weird mission.
> Third, and perhaps most importantly, I can't for the life of me figure
> out how and when "Captain" Watters got the secret orders to get
> information on the Dominion battleship. Either the orders were sent
> recently, in which case Starfleet is assigning crucial missions to a ship
> listed as missing and the existence of which they can no longer
> confirm, or they were sent before Captain Ramirez's death, in which
> case Starfleet knew about that particular battleship immediately after or
> even before the war started. Neither one seems to fit.
Sure it fits....official mission to "circumnavigate the UFP," unofficial
mission to track down the new ship. I'll have to watch it again to see
what Waters says about his mission.
> to keep one riveted to the screen regardless of story. As a result, the
> focus on Nog tended to drift a great deal.
Largely because he became so entranced with the whole notion of being an
officer in charge of engineering...and it happened REALLY fast. Then
again Nog is really just a cadet himself.
> we just wound up thinking "ah, we're aboard the U.S.S. Loony."
Or the U.S.S. I've Read too Many Stories about Captain Kirk and Want to
Be A Hero.
> seemed to be surrounded by stock characters, many of them doing the
> usual snotty-teenager bit (particularly David Drew Gallagher as
> Shepard, whom we'd seen before in "Paradise Lost" and didn't
> impress me then either).
The female first officer takes the cake in that department.
> Watters wanted him to do: he made a statement that let Watters
> reinforce Red Squad's sense of immortality and of shared glory. Had
And paved the way for an incredibly embarrasing scene with everyone
shouting "Red Squad!" over and over again. The best and the brightest
and they can't do better than that?
> someone like Sisko made the same attempt, I'd have been shocked at
> how naively he was tricked -- but Jake *is* still young enough to be
> naive in that kind of position, and I found it interesting.
Well, Jake is not a Starfleet officer. He just doesn't fit the
requirements. It is not surprising that what he said had no effect, or
at least not the effect that he wanted.
> Falcon. Instead, Moore let the tragedy unfold more fully: the Valiant
> and very nearly everyone aboard her were killed in fairly short order.
> (The realization that even a direct hit on the Magical Technical Flaw
I did find it a bit annoying that Nog basically sat there for a few
minutes doing nothing will Valiant was being pounded. For cying out
loud--DO something!
> might actually have led to some interesting debate; as it is, I'm not
> sure anyone was three-dimensional enough for the argument to be
> worthwhile.
Not an arguement at all--Waters decision was downright stupid. His
mission was to get the sensor information back to Starfleet, where it
could be studied and used by starships prepared to meet this new ship
(and ones crewed by experienced officers). Not really any room to argue
about his decision. Actually, was the sensor info transmitted to SF? I
can't recall if it was. If it wasn't what ever happened to the info.
> like to see a sense of exactly how Cardassian/Dominion and
> Federation territories relate to each other.
But the producers don't want you to see that...because they have no idea
:)
> -- As Watters is giving his final pep talk, the camera briefly focuses on
> a Vulcan. He looked an awful lot like the one at the end of "First
> Contact", but there was no credit for the actor. I'm curious.
He would have been far too young to be Cully Fredrickson.
> -- The effects for the various battle scenes were quite good, both early
> on in the episode and during the assault on the battleship. (I
> particularly liked the shot of the Valiant going between two struts,
> seen only on the Valiant's viewscreen.)
The escape pods were a neat part--now we know what those two panels are
hiding.
--
Steeltown: A Big Country web site
http://www.mint.net/~roliver/bc-mint.htm
A Guide to the Star Trek Universe
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6053/
David E. Sluss
tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
[wholesale snips]
TWL>"Valiant" was just such a show:
TWL>there was very little about it that made me glad I was watching,
TWL>but very little that damned the episode either.
That's roughly my impression as well.
TWL>Third, and perhaps most importantly, I can't for the life of me
TWL>figure out how and when "Captain" Watters got the secret orders to
TWL>get information on the Dominion battleship.
I figured as I watched this that Watters had manufactured the orders
as part of his quest for glory, and had lied to Nog and presumably the
rest of the crew. I figure they stumbled onto the Dominion Death Star
transmissions at some point and quick-thinking Watters said "That's
the ship that we're supposed to find under our secret orders."
TWL>(The realization that even a direct hit on the Magical Technical
TWL>Flaw didn't work and wasn't going to was nicely staged.)
I don't know. I mean two torpedos caused a whole series of explosions
along the bottom of the Dominion Death Star and enveloped the entire
ship in flame, but nothing was apparently damaged? A good moment
perhaps, but one that to me doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's
manipulative, and doesn't make much sense.
TWL>-- Given that the last time we saw Red Squad, they'd been used as
TWLpart of Admiral Leyton's plan to take over Starfleet from within,
TWL>I'm a bit surprised to see them in such good standing, and I'm
TWL>*really* surprised to see them admiring Sisko so much, since he's
TWL>the one who brought them down.
Yes, this struck me as odd as well. Perhaps there was a big coverup in
Starfleet which protected Dead Squad's reputation, among other things?
Another question: Nog was involved in Sisko's investigation of Dead
Squad in "Paradise Lost"; it seems like he should know that they were
dirty and not be so admiring.
TWL>-- On the other hand, Courtney Peldon (Farris) struck me as
TWL>someone trying really really hard to be Jeri Ryan [...]
It seemed to me she was trying (and failing) to be Elizabeth Dennehy
(Cmdr. Shelby).
TWL>-- As Watters is giving his final pep talk, the camera briefly
TWL>focuses on a Vulcan.
There were several Vulcans in the crew. Why would they not object to
this illogical mission of Watters'? Why would they chant "Dead Squad"
mindlessly along with all the hoomans? (c.f. ILLOGIC OF THE WEEK in
this weeks CC Review).
--
\\ David E. Sluss (a.k.a. Slug) \\ "I'm impatient with \\
\\_ sluss#dhp.com ___________________\\__stupidity. My people have __\\
// Manager of The Cynics Corner: // learned to live without it." //
// http://www.dhp.com/~sluss // Klaatu //
Adam Deutsch
RE-watch the initial result of the torpedo attack on the big Dom. ship--
it appeared at least to me to be a series of underbelly explosions,
suggesting that the ship was blowing up section by section. To see that
and then see it emerge from a fireball in OK condition was absurd-- sorry!
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote: > [wholesale snips]
> TWL>"Valiant" was just such a show:
> TWL>there was very little about it that made me glad I was watching,
> TWL>but very little that damned the episode either.
>
> That's roughly my impression as well.
>
> TWL>Third, and perhaps most importantly, I can't for the life of me
> TWL>figure out how and when "Captain" Watters got the secret orders to
> TWL>get information on the Dominion battleship.
>
> I figured as I watched this that Watters had manufactured the orders
> as part of his quest for glory, and had lied to Nog and presumably the
> rest of the crew. I figure they stumbled onto the Dominion Death Star
> transmissions at some point and quick-thinking Watters said "That's
> the ship that we're supposed to find under our secret orders."
>
> TWL>(The realization that even a direct hit on the Magical Technical
> TWL>Flaw didn't work and wasn't going to was nicely staged.)
***********************************************
Adam Deutsch, M.D.
Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center
New York, New York
***********************************************
Dennis Iannicca
Adam Deutsch <ad...@columbia.edu> wrote:
: RE-watch the initial result of the torpedo attack on the big Dom. ship--
: it appeared at least to me to be a series of underbelly explosions,
: suggesting that the ship was blowing up section by section. To see that
: and then see it emerge from a fireball in OK condition was absurd-- sorry!
I think they forgot to take into account one tiny detail.
Dominion ships have these things called shields.. they act as sort of an
invisible barrier to stop an attackers weapons from directly hitting the
hull (or vital parts of the <I can't remember the tech name> section of
the ship). For all we know that could have just been the torpedoes
exploding off the shields and spreading out the delta radiation. Looked
like the Millenium Falcon attacking a Star Destroyer though. :-)
--
----------------------------------------------------------
drs...@dominion.cba.csuohio.edu | http://www.linux.org
Blinky lights are the essence of | Caffeine underflow
modern technology! | (brain dumped)
joe
its just my personal opinion, but this guy's a prick
Timothy W. Lynch wrote in message <6j2r2g$8...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
Stormin'
"joe" <w...@sdgj.com> wrote:
>its just my personal opinion, but this guy's a prick
"joe," assuming you're serious, I think you may want to read Lynch's
reviews from the past seven years and you'll see he's very thoughtful,
has a genuine writer's perspective, and manages to take the time and
go into detail to express all his points. I am certainly not always
in agreement with him but respect his reasoning when I'm not. Instead
of insulting people, why not express why you disagree?
Stormin'
Steven Binion
I agree, that sceen was all wrong, I still liked the episode in general, but
that was one major technical error.
Adam Deutsch wrote:
> RE-watch the initial result of the torpedo attack on the big Dom. ship--
> it appeared at least to me to be a series of underbelly explosions,
> suggesting that the ship was blowing up section by section. To see that
> and then see it emerge from a fireball in OK condition was absurd-- sorry!
>
>
> > tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote: > [wholesale snips]
> > TWL>"Valiant" was just such a show:
> > TWL>there was very little about it that made me glad I was watching,
> > TWL>but very little that damned the episode either.
> >
> > That's roughly my impression as well.
> >
> > TWL>Third, and perhaps most importantly, I can't for the life of me
> > TWL>figure out how and when "Captain" Watters got the secret orders to
> > TWL>get information on the Dominion battleship.
> >
> > I figured as I watched this that Watters had manufactured the orders
> > as part of his quest for glory, and had lied to Nog and presumably the
> > rest of the crew. I figure they stumbled onto the Dominion Death Star
> > transmissions at some point and quick-thinking Watters said "That's
> > the ship that we're supposed to find under our secret orders."
> >
> > TWL>(The realization that even a direct hit on the Magical Technical
> > TWL>Flaw didn't work and wasn't going to was nicely staged.)
--
Captain Steven Binion
The Gamma Knights : A Star Trek - Maquis Fan Club
mailto:ste...@startreklane.com Write to me.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/GammaKnights/index.html Visit our web site.
mailto:hailingf...@listbot.com Write to Hailing Frequency.
TC
Steven Binion wrote:
>
> I agree, that sceen was all wrong, I still liked the episode in general, but
> that was one major technical error.
>
I don't think it was an error. I think it was done with the purpose of
making you think they had destroyed the ship, so you could be as shocked
as the 'dead squad' (like that name, whoever came up with it) when the
battleship came through unscathed. It was a cheap manipulative trick.
TC
Mike Balkan
Do you realize who you're talking to?
recook77
joe wrote in message <6j4rqe$t43$1...@news10.ispnews.com>...
>its just my personal opinion, but this guy's a prick
>
Wow, what insight (sarcasm).
Why don't you explain why you disagree with his opinion instead of making
insulting comments?
--
"Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do."
David Bowie, "Space Oddity"
Lasher
Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>
> WARNING: Brave enough to want spoilers for DS9's "Valiant"? If
> so, they're below.
>
> In brief: Rather profoundly neutral.
>
I liked it just a shade more than you did. I always like Jake shows.
> anyway. Nog doesn't strike me as a character with interesting enough
> conflicts to be worth watching solo for an entire hour, though, and as
> game as Aron Eisenberg is, he doesn't have that Meaneyesque ability
> to keep one riveted to the screen regardless of story. As a result, the
> focus on Nog tended to drift a great deal.
>
I disagree with this. It was pretty clear that Nog was set up for a
big fall once he walked on board Valiant. The question was how far he
would go before he realized he became a victim of Red Squad's
collective arrogance. The episode started with a perfect example of
how a little power can go to Nog's head really freaking quick (being
the official courier for a message to Feringinar). Getting
starry-eyed over his promotion to chief of engineering by a member of
Red Squad, I was truly wondering how far Nog would go before he
stepped in and said this was wrong. It wasn't until Valiant was
falling down around him, and I thought that was the best choice that
could have been made for that character.
However, instead of the Jake/Nog conversation at the end, I would
have very much preferred Nog talking about Valiant with Captain Sisko,
or O'Brien or someone else with extensive battle experience. It's not
that I had any real problems with the closing scene, but it didn't
really make me sit up and take notice either. I think a scene with
Sisko or O'Brien would have been a better choice.
> Ashley Brianne McDonogh (Collins) did somewhat better, but her
> main role in the show was to be the homesick cadet who survives,
> much as one might expect in a teen slasher movie from the mid-1980s.
> Apart from a few glimmers here and there that made me see the
> characters as actual people with actual emotions (such as Dorian's
> speech about growing up on the moon), Jake and Nog more or less
> seemed to be surrounded by stock characters, many of them doing the
> usual snotty-teenager bit (particularly David Drew Gallagher as
> Shepard, whom we'd seen before in "Paradise Lost" and didn't
> impress me then either).
>
The snotty-teenager bit is not original, granted, but I think it's
effective and it fits perfectly with what we already knew of Red
Squad. I think the story did a decent job of demonstrating how their
lack of experience was an even bigger problem than their arrogance.
An experienced officer, much less a captain, would never have
*invited* criticism during the briefing/pep rally. The suffocating
environment of Valiant would have made Captain Jellico proud, though.
The only real value Dorian added to Valiant was her long talk about
growing up on the moon. I thought the scene was decently played,
although the monologue was starting to remind me of Babylon 5's more
plodding moments (getting characterization out of the way by having
said character chatter on for a minute and a half or so about oneself,
then jump back into the plot). However, this long conversation worked
because it did more than give a Red Squad cadet a personality; the
conversation itself led to some consequences for Jake and illustrated
just how tightly wound Valiant's command had become.
> That left the plot -- and while the eventual outcome of it was in little
> doubt, there were a few small twists along the way. The basic gist of
> "captain wants a blaze of glory and fails" isn't exactly new, nor is the
> "lone outsider as voice of reason" concept we got through Jake here.
> What was somewhat interesting, however, is how completely
> ineffective Jake's arguments were.
Jake's arguments were the biggest gripe I had with the episode,
because he (or no one else for that matter) tried the one argument
that could have been the most effective. Namely, if the data Valiant
collected from that Dominion destroyer was so damned important, their
primary responsibility should be to ferry it to the nearest starbase
so that an entire fleet of starships can make use of that data instead
of just one. Given Red Squad's self-importance, that argument may not
work either. However, it's a lot better than telling a shipload of
egotists that they can't do something because "it's impossible". Jake
practically dared them to do it, and he is intelligent enough to come
up with a better argument than the one he came up with.
> -- Given that the last time we saw Red Squad, they'd been used as part
> of Admiral Leyton's plan to take over Starfleet from within, I'm a bit
> surprised to see them in such good standing, and I'm *really*
> surprised to see them admiring Sisko so much, since he's the one who
> brought them down.
...And why the hell was Shepard there? He was instrumental in
sabatoging Earth's entire power net, for Chrissake! He may have been
following orders, but I think it was extrememly poor judgement to
place someone with a history of zealously following questionable
orders on one of Starfleet's most powerful attack vessels.
> -- On the other hand, Courtney Peldon (Farris) struck me as someone
> trying really really hard to be Jeri Ryan (Juliet from the late, lamented
> "Dark Skies" and Seven of Nine from the not-yet-late-but-often-
> lamentable Voyager) and not quite pulling it off.
Not unless you count her gift for inspring sheer loathing. I
couldn't stand Commander Poopy-Pants. She may not have been the best
of actresses, but she was good enough to provoke a few repetitions of
'get over yourself, princess' from me. And I think that was pretty
much the point. She was the first officer, and under the
circumstances she had to be a hardass to prevent the crew from falling
apart.
>
> -- And one non-"Star Wars" MST: "Jake ... can I call you Jake?" "Sure
> thing, dickweed. Can I call you dickweed?" [Okay, so the word we
> used was a bit stronger ... but this is still vaguely a family review.
> :-) ]
LOL!
> -- The effects for the various battle scenes were quite good, both early
> on in the episode and during the assault on the battleship. (I
> particularly liked the shot of the Valiant going between two struts,
> seen only on the Valiant's viewscreen.)
I really liked the explosion that engulfed the destroyer, but didn't
destroy it. It may not have meant much sense, but it was pretty
dramatic. I also liked the escape pod scenes as well. However, I
thought the FX were a lot more noticable as CGI than usual. DS9
usually does a better job with that sort of thing.
>
> NEXT WEEK:
>
> Quark! In! Drag!
>
===8^0
...Let's see, what did I do with that tape of "Wrongs Darker Than
Death Or Night"...
--
Lasher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
/=================================================\
"War doesn't determine who's right, just who's
left" ---Anonymous
\=================================================/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> la...@sprintmail.com
Nelson Lu
In article <3555b8f...@usenet.pitt.edu>,
David E. Sluss <sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com> wrote:
>There were several Vulcans in the crew. Why would they not object to
>this illogical mission of Watters'? Why would they chant "Dead Squad"
>mindlessly along with all the hoomans? (c.f. ILLOGIC OF THE WEEK in
>this weeks CC Review).
Did we actually see Vulcans chanting? I don't think during the chant we saw a
shot of any Vulcan.
But in any case, Vulcans are logical but not infallible. Plus, even on a
logical level, Watters' orders may make sense -- particularly given the
concept that the good of the many outweigh the good of the one. The Vulcans
in the crew may very well have decided that logically, the risk of death is
not much when measured against the likelihood of success given the data that
they had.
As far as your other complaint (that people should have known that the Red
Squad was dirty) -- Shepard is the only Red Squad cadet that we saw in both
episodes, so it can be that the top level Red Squad cadets were purged but not
Red Squad in general. Further, unlike Captain Benteen, the Red Squad cadets
might not have known what's really going on; they received supposedly top
secret orders from the Commandant, and they carried them out. I don't see that
they'd necessarily get punished for it.
Mike Zeares
In article <199805100326...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
and my friends as the crew of the Enterprise, or Colonial Warriors, or
whatever. I kept thinking, where's Marissa? I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I
can't wait for the MiSTings.
Mike Zeares
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Maureen Goldman
I was half-way expecting them to shoot down a ship belonging to some
planet that had become a Federation ally during the eight months that
they had been out of touch.
Robert Oliver
> Did we actually see Vulcans chanting? I don't think during the chant we saw a
> shot of any Vulcan.
Yes, we did see a Vulcan but he was not chanting. There was also a
female Vulcan but I do not recall her reaction (probably the same as the
male Vulcan).
Tom Thatcher
In article <6j4rqe$t43$1...@news10.ispnews.com>, joe <w...@sdgj.com> wrote:
>its just my personal opinion, but this guy's a prick
>
TROLL ALERT.
A quick check at dejanews shows this is the only article ever posted to
any newsgroup by "joe <w...@sdgj.com>".
Ergo, "joe" is probably one of the newsgroups favorite trek-zombies,
who now reveals himself as both a moron and a coward.
--
Tom Thatcher | You can give a PC to a Homo habilis,
University of Rochester Cancer Center | and he'll use it, but he'll use it
tt...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu | to crack nuts.
Rahul Rao
Nelson Lu wrote:
> Did we actually see Vulcans chanting? I don't think during the chant we saw a
> shot of any Vulcan.
>
Actually in one of the scenes there was a Vulcan standing quietly in the back while
everyone else was chanting. He was small and hard to notice, so it is no wonder
that everyone missed him (I noticed him on the second viewing). But I was happy
that director mainted some semblance of continuity by making the Vulcan not chant.
Rahul Rao
Timothy W. Lynch
"joe" <w...@sdgj.com> writes:
>its just my personal opinion, but this guy's a prick
Oh, I agree. Stupid, too; I'm amazed he can dress himself.
Tim Lynch
...but at least he knows enough to trim 200+ extraneous lines from a post
Shawn Hill
Robert Oliver (rol...@mint.net) wrote:
: Sure it fits....official mission to "circumnavigate the UFP," unofficial
: mission to track down the new ship. I'll have to watch it again to see
: what Waters says about his mission.
Well, since they were only on a training assignment, circumnavigating was probably
just a way of having them fly *somehwere* while they trained.
: (and ones crewed by experienced officers). Not really any room to argue
: about his decision. Actually, was the sensor info transmitted to SF? I
: can't recall if it was. If it wasn't what ever happened to the info.
No, I think they were still in cloak, w/sensors off. The important info was lost;
they failed completely. Except presumably for what descriptive verbal info they
can get from the three survivors.
What I didn't buy was ... how can a missing ship that wasn't really missing have
gone unnoticed for so long. Would no-one have tried to get a message home after
their adult crew was killed? Would no-one have gone looking for them? I mean, how
many Defiant-class ships are there?
: > like to see a sense of exactly how Cardassian/Dominion and
: > Federation territories relate to each other.
: But the producers don't want you to see that...because they have no idea
: :)
LOL!
: The escape pods were a neat part--now we know what those two panels are
: hiding.
Very First Contact. Though VOY has done it, too. I had a hard time believing that
the Doms would let ANY escape pods survive.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
: we just wound up thinking "ah, we're aboard the U.S.S. Loony."
You can say that again.
: characters as actual people with actual emotions (such as Dorian's
: speech about growing up on the moon), Jake and Nog more or less
This was in fact the best part of the episode to me; it was also in a way the
truest essence of scifi. Not the ships, not the costumes, not the polaron
emitters, but the simple story of a girl missing her daddy and her homeland, and
describing in detail what that means when you're living on the moon. The banter
about calling it "Luna" or not, and just the nice descriptive writing -- it was a
scene about something we as humans have not yet done (set up a moon colony),
treated as so everyday as to make one homesick for it. Great stuff, and the point,
to me, for reading and watching sf -- to imagine things that aren't yet true, but
may one day be.
: seemed to be surrounded by stock characters, many of them doing the
: usual snotty-teenager bit (particularly David Drew Gallagher as
: Shepard, whom we'd seen before in "Paradise Lost" and didn't
: impress me then either).
I thought the number three lady (who was so anatagonistic to Nog and Jake) was
good; a little Nechayev in training. Unlike the kindler gentler Number One.
: how naively he was tricked -- but Jake *is* still young enough to be
: naive in that kind of position, and I found it interesting.
And they kept the youthful naivete as a running theme; Jake's way of bragging about
his dad to score points, the awkwardness of being the new kid in the lunch room,
the uncomfortable response to Jake's inexplicable (in their "loony" world-view)
failure to have ever donned a uniform, Nog's willingness to be sucked into the
pride and glory of it all, etc. Lots of good small touches.
: -- Given that the last time we saw Red Squad, they'd been used as part
: of Admiral Leyton's plan to take over Starfleet from within, I'm a bit
: surprised to see them in such good standing, and I'm *really*
: surprised to see them admiring Sisko so much, since he's the one who
: brought them down.
I questioned this myself. It seems like the very concept of Red Squad has become a
liability that Starfleet did not forsee.
: -- Although the concept of circumnavigating a three-dimensional space
: like the Federation is reasonable (just ask Magellan), it made me
: wonder why all the tactical maps we see are two-dimensional.
: Production restrictions strike me as the main reason, but just once I'd
: like to see a sense of exactly how Cardassian/Dominion and
: Federation territories relate to each other.
Good call, Tim. But, what shape would they use? A sphere? Intermingling
amoeboids? A cube with puzzle fittings?
: intentional or at least noticed while fine-tuning the script: delta
: radiation is what crippled Pike, which seems appropriate.)
interesting.......
: -- On the other hand, Courtney Peldon (Farris) struck me as someone
: trying really really hard to be Jeri Ryan (Juliet from the late, lamented
: "Dark Skies" and Seven of Nine from the not-yet-late-but-often-
: lamentable Voyager) and not quite pulling it off.
Nechayev, buddy, I'm telling you. She wasn't "quite pulling it off" because she
was still a kid; the *character* was failing at her pretense of tough competence,
not the actress.
: -- As Watters is giving his final pep talk, the camera briefly focuses on
: a Vulcan. He looked an awful lot like the one at the end of "First
: Contact", but there was no credit for the actor. I'm curious.
this was another major plot-line flaw to me. I can see some hepped-up kids getting
carried away with their own tragedies and newfound authority (esp. when led by a
charismatic drug-addict like Watters), BUT ... we saw more than one Vulcan on
board. Presumably, as young as they look, they're actually at least twice the age
of their compeers (given the slowness of Vulcan aging) ... wouldn't more than one
of them at least be in the brig by now, for bringing up the same sort of logical
objections that Jake did? Or have staged a rebellion? As in VOY, apparently crew
unity transcends all other forces in a crisis situation. Like ... realistic
assessment of their situation.
: -- The effects for the various battle scenes were quite good, both early
: on in the episode and during the assault on the battleship. (I
: particularly liked the shot of the Valiant going between two struts,
: seen only on the Valiant's viewscreen.)
Wasn't it through a sort of loophole shape? I just wanted the guy to look at the
screen before he crashed!!
: OVERALL: 5; about as ordinary as they come.
It was much more entertaining than that, I thought. And it actually did delve
into an aspect of Starfleet lore, as other eps like TNG's "Lower Decks" have done.
I love it when a previously imagined facet of the Trekiverse is expanded upon (in a
non-disappointing way). Plus, it was a war episode in a season that keeps
forgetting they're having one. I'm going for 8.7.
Shawn
xfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxf
"I'm fine, Mulder."
-- dana
xfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxfxffxfx
sh...@husc.harvard.edu Shawn Hill
Shawn Hill
Lasher (la...@sprintmail.com) wrote:
: I really liked the explosion that engulfed the destroyer, but didn't
: destroy it. It may not have meant much sense, but it was pretty
: dramatic. I also liked the escape pod scenes as well. However, I
: thought the FX were a lot more noticable as CGI than usual. DS9
: usually does a better job with that sort of thing.
I liked the way the explosion just ... didn't ... work. There are many possible
explanation, the most obvious to me being that this seeming weakness that the
Valiant fools detected was a ruse put there by the Doms for just that purpose, and
Red Squad fell right into it! The fact that we don't know why their attack failed
just adds to the Doms mystery (and I loved the way the big ship just lumbered about
silently and looked nasty, with us never getting a glance inside).
Shawn
mbe...@as.net
Lasher wrote:
>
> However, instead of the Jake/Nog conversation at the end, I would
> have very much preferred Nog talking about Valiant with Captain Sisko,
> or O'Brien or someone else with extensive battle experience. It's not
> that I had any real problems with the closing scene, but it didn't
> really make me sit up and take notice either. I think a scene with
> Sisko or O'Brien would have been a better choice.
I agree. I think Ron Moore is the ST franchise's best writer, and his
forte--besides storys on the Klingons--seems to be his ability to show a
'silver lining' in a dark cloud of tragic loss (e.g., "The Bonding").
Buth there was no silver lining here at all. While intellectually it
may be satisfying to some that all the cadets save one were killed ("The
deserved it, the arrogant fools"), the outcome is more disturbing on an
emotional level. I would have preferred to see more cadets having
survived to reflect upon their folly at the end of the show, perhaps
with Sisko telling them "Yes it was a mistake; remember it well. But at
least your attempt was for a worthy cause," or some such thing.
And to those who would condemn "Capt" Watters, consider this: Put a 22
year-old Ensign Jean-Luc Picard in his place. Do you really think the
young man who years later turned out to be Starfleet's best captain
would have not gone after that Dominion ship, just like he went after
the three Naussicans???
> > Ashley Brianne McDonogh (Collins) did somewhat better, but her
> > main role in the show was to be the homesick cadet who survives,
> > much as one might expect in a teen slasher movie from the mid-1980s.
I hope we see her again, although I doubt it will happen...
> The snotty-teenager bit is not original, granted, but I think it's
> effective and it fits perfectly with what we already knew of Red
> Squad. I think the story did a decent job of demonstrating how their
> lack of experience was an even bigger problem than their arrogance.
What amazes me is how the academy could foster a sense of superiority in
such a small group of cadets. Doesn't character count? Shouldn't a Red
Squad member be MORE RESPONSIBLE than the average cadet? Shoulden't
they demonstrate BETTER JUDGEMENT, especially under stressfull
situations? Instead, they come off as a 24th Century BH90210 group,
hung up on their own supposed superiority. What about the other 99% of
the cadets who don't belong to Red Sqaud? Are they just pond scum???
Can you imagine the USNA telling a particular squad of Navy cadets they
were better than the other cadets; in fact sanctioning their
superiority? Sure, a more talented group might well be recognized more
for their achievements, but they wouldn't get their own dorms, special
status, and the like. And this the enlightenmed 24th Century were
talking about?
> An experienced officer, much less a captain, would never have
> *invited* criticism during the briefing/pep rally. The suffocating
> environment of Valiant would have made Captain Jellico proud, though.
There we go, slamming poor Ed Jellico again. By the way, did you notice
the dialof in the episode "By the pale.." tha old Ed's no longer the
captain of the Cairo? Unfortunately, his successor bit the dust...
> Jake's arguments were the biggest gripe I had with the episode,
> because he (or no one else for that matter) tried the one argument
> that could have been the most effective. Namely, if the data Valiant
> collected from that Dominion destroyer was so damned important, their
> primary responsibility should be to ferry it to the nearest starbase
> so that an entire fleet of starships can make use of that data instead
> of just one.
True. But even more shocking was ignoring the fact that Ramirez was not
explicitely ordered to engage the battleship. If Starfleet command
wanted to destroy the battleship, do you think they would have sent a
single Defiant class ship?? The way this battleship was described, it
would have been more than a match for any single starship, including the
top of the line Enterprise-E. Why didn't Jake, Nog, or one of the
cadets realize their orders were specific--to gather data--for a reason
and thus should be followed to the letter? As it stands, the intel they
collected was lost when the Valiant was destroyed, so they didn't really
complete the mission at all.
That brings up another topic. Why didn't it occur to these cadets that
the supposed design flaw was possibly a ruse? Certainly a race as
advanced in tactical ops as the Dominion and their operatives would be
masters at making intel look like something it really wasn't? Did
anyone think to point out to Watters and Ferris that it makes no sense
to have such a basic flaw in such an advanced ship?
> > -- On the other hand, Courtney Peldon (Farris) struck me as someone
> > trying really really hard to be Jeri Ryan
>
> Not unless you count her gift for inspring sheer loathing. I
> couldn't stand Commander Poopy-Pants. She may not have been the best
> of actresses, but she was good enough to provoke a few repetitions of
> 'get over yourself, princess' from me. And I think that was pretty
> much the point. She was the first officer, and under the
> circumstances she had to be a hardass to prevent the crew from falling
> apart.
Yeah, all true. But she was very cute! :-)
> I really liked the explosion that engulfed the destroyer, but didn't
> destroy it. It may not have meant much sense, but it was pretty
> dramatic.
Yeah, but blowing up the escaping pods was hitting below the belt!
Amos Yung
On 11 May 1998 01:55:21 GMT, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) wrote:
>In article <3555b8f...@usenet.pitt.edu>,
>David E. Sluss <sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com> wrote:
>
>>There were several Vulcans in the crew. Why would they not object to
>>this illogical mission of Watters'? Why would they chant "Dead Squad"
>>mindlessly along with all the hoomans? (c.f. ILLOGIC OF THE WEEK in
>>this weeks CC Review).
>
>Did we actually see Vulcans chanting? I don't think during the chant we saw a
>shot of any Vulcan.
>
We did. And he wasn't chanting.
Yehoshua
In article <6j80uv$ruc$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
Shawn Hill <sh...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
>
>
>: how naively he was tricked -- but Jake *is* still young enough to be
>: naive in that kind of position, and I found it interesting.
>
>And they kept the youthful naivete as a running theme; Jake's way of
>bragging about his dad to score points, the awkwardness of being the
>new kid in the lunch room, the uncomfortable response to Jake's
>inexplicable (in their "loony" world-view) failure to have ever
>donned a uniform, Nog's willingness to be sucked into the pride and
>glory of it all, etc. Lots of good small touches.
You know, you've just hit on something that bothered me about the
speech to Jake about "you don't understand because you've never
worn the uniform/you've never been part of something bigger than
yourself."
That whole scene bothered me because I was waiting for Jake to say
"look, chump, I know what this uniform stands for. My mom died at
Wolf 359 and my dad has nearly died more times than I can count
FOR THIS UNIFORM. Who the hell are you to tell me I dont' understand
you snot-nosed little...."
Well, you get the idea. I had a lot of trouble with Jake simply
taking that sort of BS because it was pretty clear to me that,
while Nog has an inkling, Jake has actually already made some
major sacrifices for the uniform without having put one on.
yehoshua
Laurinda Chamberlin
tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>WARNING: Brave enough to want spoilers for DS9's "Valiant"? If
>so, they're below. [...]
>
>For the last several weeks, every DS9 episode has provoked a strong
>reaction in me, either positive ("In the Pale Moonlight", "Inquisition",
>and "The Reckoning") or negative ("Wrongs Darker Than Death or
>Night" and especially "His Way"). I suppose that after five weeks'
>worth of major ups and downs, we were about due for an episode that
>did absolutely nothing either way. "Valiant" was just such a show:
>there was very little about it that made me glad I was watching, but
>very little that damned the episode either. [...]
I liked this episode more than you did, though I can't swear how much of
my opinion is due to seeing Red Squad finally get theirs. Sometimes this
show brings out my evil streak. At any rate, even if this episode had its
problems, it at least allows us some time to recover from the narrative
whiplash of the last few weeks.
>Less plausible are the circumstances surrounding the U.S.S. Valiant.
>First, the rescue of Jake and Nog seems awfully difficult to swallow:
>if they've been in Dominion-controlled space for eight months, I don't
>see why they'd so close to the Federation at this particular point in
>time. Jake and Nog left from a starbase that was presumably still in
>Federation territory, and the attack apparently came minutes afterward.
>Even if you assume a delay between the teaser and the first act, that
>still puts the Valiant hours or even *minutes* from Fed territory when
>they rescued Jake and Nog. That strikes me as silly: if you want to
>run a secret mission and play wargames, you don't do it when you're
>standing right next to Mommy and Daddy. [...]
I would ascribe this to a peculiarity of the local layout of Federation
territory. Jake's comments in the first act indicated that they were
well on their way to Cardassia Prime by the time the fighter caught up
with them. Since Cardassia Prime is apparently not all that far from DS9
and Federation territory, the Valiant may have tracked the new Dominion
warship close to the borders.
BTW, what did happen to Starbase 257 when it was attacked? Just asking.
>Third, and perhaps most importantly, I can't for the life of me figure
>out how and when "Captain" Watters got the secret orders to get
>information on the Dominion battleship. Either the orders were sent
>recently, in which case Starfleet is assigning crucial missions to a ship
>listed as missing and the existence of which they can no longer
>confirm, or they were sent before Captain Ramirez's death, in which
>case Starfleet knew about that particular battleship immediately after or
>even before the war started. Neither one seems to fit.
It makes sense only if Watters is lying about some or all of the sequence
of events he described. One other thing I find peculiar is the idea that
this Dominion warship would have been aimlessly flying around Cardassian
territory for 8 months doing nothing. If it's so dangerous, why not attack
the Federation with it?
>All that said, however, the show's main purpose was to give us
>another look at Red Squad and to show Nog getting in way over his
>head. Both of those are certainly decent goals, but they weren't
>achieved particularly well.
>Primarily, I think that's because of the characters on board the Valiant.
>[...] The only two
>cadets whose heads we got into even a little were Captain Tim Watters
>and Chief Dorian Collins. Paul Popowich (Watters) got across some
>of the force of will needed to make Watters' crew follow him, but not
>enough; rather than feeling pity for a cadet who got in over his head,
>we just wound up thinking "ah, we're aboard the U.S.S. Loony."
>Ashley Brianne McDonogh (Collins) did somewhat better, but her
>main role in the show was to be the homesick cadet who survives,
>much as one might expect in a teen slasher movie from the mid-1980s. [...]
I think the basic idea behind this story was a decent one, but the
wooden acting of the young guest stars really caused a problem. Popowich
was okay, but although he got the obsession and the implacability across,
he was unable to convey any sense that this cadet was human. The actresses
who played Collins and Farris were flat and unconvincing. In order for this
to work as a story of obsession and hubris, we needed actors who could reach
out and grab us and make us cringe *for* their characters rather than *at*
them.
One particular thing I didn't like about the characterization of Watters
was the inclusion of the drug dependency. I thought that Red Squad
arrogance, coupled with inexperience and isolation, was enough to induce
him to behave the way he did. Having him popping pills had "headed for a
fall" painted a little too obviously all over it. The things I did like
about his characterization were the times when he approached a kind of
unconscious parody of captains we already know and love. His speech to
Jake in his ready room about how the fates that rule the galaxy had chosen
the Valiant crew for a special purpose, he just *knew* it, played like a
bad attempt to imitate Sisko -- and ironically, if he thought he could
convince Jake by taking that tack, he was terribly wrong, because the
mysticism is the one thing in his father's character that disturbs Jake
the most. Then later, when Watters made the speech to the crew just before
the battle, I thought, good heavens, now he's doing Kirk!
>That left the plot -- and while the eventual outcome of it was in little
>doubt, there were a few small twists along the way. The basic gist of
>"captain wants a blaze of glory and fails" isn't exactly new, nor is the
>"lone outsider as voice of reason" concept we got through Jake here.
>What was somewhat interesting, however, is how completely
>ineffective Jake's arguments were. I'm not surprised he couldn't get
>through to Nog,
I was a little surprised at how savagely Nog attacked Jake's character.
Even if Jake doesn't "get it" about Starfleet, why proclaim him beneath
contempt? I thought that was a little extreme even for Nog, who, as the
only Ferengi, has to be more Starfleet than Starfleet.
>but I was expecting him to convince a couple of key
>players that the mission wouldn't work. Instead, he did exactly what
>Watters wanted him to do: he made a statement that let Watters
>reinforce Red Squad's sense of immortality and of shared glory. Had
>someone like Sisko made the same attempt,
Heck, if Sisko had made the attempt, he would have put the fear o'God
into the little snots.
>I'd have been shocked at
>how naively he was tricked -- but Jake *is* still young enough to be
>naive in that kind of position, and I found it interesting. [...]
I liked the idea that Jake was mature enough to see the cadets' obsession
for what it was, but still inexperienced enough not to know how to get
through to them. His own streak of arrogance made him *way* too honest
and unintentionally handed them a challenge they jumped at.
>(The realization that even a direct hit on the Magical Technical Flaw
>didn't work and wasn't going to was nicely staged.)
And as others have pointed out, seeing Nog clutching the console on a
burning bridge carpeted with dead bodies nicely recalls O'Brien's crack
about no one being left to call him "Captain" if he ever found himself in
command.
>Of course, after
>that there was the usual convenience of the Defiant being the ship
>which just happens to find the escape pod, but there we are.
Still, I've never been so glad to see the Defiant. :)
>The closing scene was interesting as well; rather than issue a blanket
>indictment, Moore (through Nog) basically said "let the audience
>decide" whether these people were brave or deluded and foolish. [...]
I found the writing here a little too obvious. Moore was clobbering us
over the head with the idea that we, the audience, should decide for
ourselves. No sh*t, Sherlock. I thought it was well played by Eisenberg,
though.
>-- Given that the last time we saw Red Squad, they'd been used as part
>of Admiral Leyton's plan to take over Starfleet from within, I'm a bit
>surprised to see them in such good standing, and I'm *really*
>surprised to see them admiring Sisko so much, since he's the one who
>brought them down. [...]
They have to give him his due. Only a truly stellar officer could have
outwitted them, right?
>NEXT WEEK:
>
>Quark! In! Drag!
>Err...
I *really* hope they're paying Shimerman extra for this one....
--
Laurinda She walked by herself, and
all places were alike to her.
Lasher
Whatever it is, it's not enough.
Carol hartley
????????
Shawn Hill
Yehoshua (yeho...@shell1.tiac.net) wrote:
: That whole scene bothered me because I was waiting for Jake to say
: "look, chump, I know what this uniform stands for. My mom died at
: Wolf 359 and my dad has nearly died more times than I can count
: FOR THIS UNIFORM. Who the hell are you to tell me I dont' understand
: you snot-nosed little...."
very good points
: Well, you get the idea. I had a lot of trouble with Jake simply
: taking that sort of BS because it was pretty clear to me that,
: while Nog has an inkling, Jake has actually already made some
: major sacrifices for the uniform without having put one on.
And he's also already come up against the pressure to don one, from his own father,
and been very clear about why it was not for him. While he didn't come out and say
that anywhere in this ep, his immunity to the ship's maniacal conformity (his
unwillingness to play along with their delusional behavior) was perhaps evident of
how comfortable he is with himself.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
mbe...@as.net wrote:
: with Sisko telling them "Yes it was a mistake; remember it well. But at
: least your attempt was for a worthy cause," or some such thing.
Can you really see Sisko saying that? I see something more along the lines of "You
have all f***ed up seriously. What were you thinking. You're on suspension for a
VERY long time. And, Mr. Nog, come over here, we need to have a LONGGGGGG talk."
: And to those who would condemn "Capt" Watters, consider this: Put a 22
: year-old Ensign Jean-Luc Picard in his place. Do you really think the
: young man who years later turned out to be Starfleet's best captain
: would have not gone after that Dominion ship, just like he went after
: the three Naussicans???
I think a young Jean-Luc would have gathered the intelligence and left. Three
Nausicans vs. you and your buddies is hardly the same thing as your little
understaffed ship vs. an unknown Deathstar.
: such a small group of cadets. Doesn't character count? Shouldn't a Red
: Squad member be MORE RESPONSIBLE than the average cadet? Shoulden't
: they demonstrate BETTER JUDGEMENT, especially under stressfull
: situations? Instead, they come off as a 24th Century BH90210 group,
you'd THINK, wouldn't you?
: top of the line Enterprise-E. Why didn't Jake, Nog, or one of the
: cadets realize their orders were specific--to gather data--for a reason
: and thus should be followed to the letter? As it stands, the intel they
: collected was lost when the Valiant was destroyed, so they didn't really
: complete the mission at all.
That's the whole tragedy of the episode. The point Moore was making, I think, was
that these inexperienced kids weren't capable of making the right decision, and
should have realized that somehow (maybe by avoiding such mindless and rampant
conformity?). Picard's ship was always, at least to some extent, about
individuality. Not so when Jellico showed up, and not so here.
: masters at making intel look like something it really wasn't? Did
: anyone think to point out to Watters and Ferris that it makes no sense
: to have such a basic flaw in such an advanced ship?
No. Because, as kids, they DIDN'T THINK OF IT.
: Yeah, but blowing up the escaping pods was hitting below the belt!
Well, we're not dealing with the namby-pamby Feds here. The Dominion have shown us
how much they value life (ie, only the Founders count) time and time again.
Shawn
Shawn Hill
Laurinda Chamberlin (tcw...@netcom.com) wrote:
: tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
: of events he described. One other thing I find peculiar is the idea that
: this Dominion warship would have been aimlessly flying around Cardassian
: territory for 8 months doing nothing. If it's so dangerous, why not attack
: the Federation with it?
Perhaps it too was still in the testing stage?
: I think the basic idea behind this story was a decent one, but the
: wooden acting of the young guest stars really caused a problem. Popowich
: was okay, but although he got the obsession and the implacability across,
: he was unable to convey any sense that this cadet was human. The actresses
I think they did do a good job of presenting their attack on the enemy ship as
almost a techinical exercise (a problem to be solved, and then we all get candy) in
these kids minds. We never saw inside the enemy ship, there was no sense of one
culture clashing against another, no concern of any sort for the lives being
destroyed by the Valiant's basically illegal mission. Fascism, IOW.
: One particular thing I didn't like about the characterization of Watters
: was the inclusion of the drug dependency. I thought that Red Squad
: arrogance, coupled with inexperience and isolation, was enough to induce
: him to behave the way he did. Having him popping pills had "headed for a
: fall" painted a little too obviously all over it. The things I did like
cliched, but effective, I thought. He was a boy trying to be a man, and failing
utterly.
: bad attempt to imitate Sisko -- and ironically, if he thought he could
: convince Jake by taking that tack, he was terribly wrong, because the
: mysticism is the one thing in his father's character that disturbs Jake
: the most. Then later, when Watters made the speech to the crew just before
: the battle, I thought, good heavens, now he's doing Kirk!
But, the thing is, that's probably exactly what the character WAS doing; imitating
his heroes, all in pursuit of becoming one himself. And people say Starfleet has
no need of counselors on its ships!?
: I was a little surprised at how savagely Nog attacked Jake's character.
: Even if Jake doesn't "get it" about Starfleet, why proclaim him beneath
: contempt? I thought that was a little extreme even for Nog, who, as the
: only Ferengi, has to be more Starfleet than Starfleet.
I was waiting for Jake to say: "Okay, Nog, think about this. I'm a civilian
citizen of the Federation. I'm who you're supposed to be protecting when you don
that uniform. Why are you risking my life in this way?"
Robert Huff
Laurinda Chamberlin wrote:
> I was a little surprised at how savagely Nog attacked Jake's character.
> Even if Jake doesn't "get it" about Starfleet, why proclaim him beneath
> contempt? I thought that was a little extreme even for Nog, who, as the
> only Ferengi, has to be more Starfleet than Starfleet.
Nog has been in StarFleet for, what, two years now? He's been
Ferengi all his life. He has a long way to go to achieve those
pesky humans deeply seated distrust of authority.
> And as others have pointed out, seeing Nog clutching the console on a
> burning bridge carpeted with dead bodies nicely recalls O'Brien's crack
> about no one being left to call him "Captain" if he ever found himself in
> command.
Oooh, you're good. I'd forgotten about that.
Robert Huff
david...@psiphi.org
> posted to any newsgroup by "joe <w...@sdgj.com>".
As a matter of fact, this "joe" has been wandering about the net
sending nasty E-mails to people, too. I got one calling me a bleeping
bleep because I was a couple days late posting the results of this
year's Rules of Netquisition contest. He used a forged address then,
too. There is no "sdgj.com"; it's just a random keyboard-hit.
David Henderson
--
Star Trek? Psi Phi! Visit http://www.psiphi.org/ for the latest news
and rumors about "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" and "Star Trek: Voyager"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
<*> davidh at psiphi.org, davidh at imsa.edu, davidh at cyberdesic.com
Lasher
Laurinda Chamberlin wrote:
>
>
> I was a little surprised at how savagely Nog attacked Jake's character.
> Even if Jake doesn't "get it" about Starfleet, why proclaim him beneath
> contempt? I thought that was a little extreme even for Nog, who, as the
> only Ferengi, has to be more Starfleet than Starfleet.
>
Was I the only one who noticed that Nog outranked everyone on the
ship? There's no way he could have commandeered Valiant, but with his
own experience on the front lines during this season's opening arc he
surely could have had a lot more influence than he exercised. I wish
that had been addressed to some degree.
Richard Bossard
recook77 <reco...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<6j5501$g...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>
>
> joe wrote in message <6j4rqe$t43$1...@news10.ispnews.com>...
> >its just my personal opinion, but this guy's a prick
> >
> Wow, what insight (sarcasm).
>
> Why don't you explain why you disagree with his opinion instead of making
> insulting comments?
Not only that, but did you *really* feel it necessary to repost the
*entire* article just so you utter one meaningless sentence?
Rick
Cario Lam
I don't know about the need for ship's counselors but there is definitely a need for
bartenders. I still like the ship's doctor playing bartender to Captain Pike in ST:
TOS.
Shawn Hill wrote:
> Laurinda Chamberlin (tcw...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
> : bad attempt to imitate Sisko -- and ironically, if he thought he could
> : convince Jake by taking that tack, he was terribly wrong, because the
> : mysticism is the one thing in his father's character that disturbs Jake
> : the most. Then later, when Watters made the speech to the crew just before
> : the battle, I thought, good heavens, now he's doing Kirk!
>
Lasher
Brian Barjenbruch wrote:
>
> >
> > Was I the only one who noticed that Nog outranked everyone on the
> > ship?
>
> everyone on the Valiant.
>
I don't think the commissions on Valiant were legitimate. Here you
have the captain dying and all the other line officers dead. The ship
is loaded with cadets. Is the captain really going to promote a cadet
to captain, or is he going to say "you're in charge, get the ship to
safety"? It would be like Picard promoting Data to captain while he
left the ship on an away mission.
If the battlefield commission were genuine, why wasn't everybody
wearing Starfleet standard issue? Methinks that Ramirez simply put
Waters in charge. Waters liked the other cadets calling him 'captain'
a little too much, and the whole thing went to his head. I really
doubt he even intended to return home because it would mean turning
over his command to someone else.
Carol hartley
Chad Millar wrote:
>
> Carol hartley wrote:
> >
> > Which is a stronger warship the Defiant class are the Sovereign class
> > ????????
>
> Thats an easy one. Defiant class, since Soverign's aren't warships.
Well which one is a better combat ship Sovereign or defiant class
Chad Millar
George M. Chavis
NEITHER!!! Starfleet vessels are notorious for NOT being able to take a
licking and keep on ticking. Clearly, Starfleet ships are manufactured
by U.S. defense contractors, awarded to the lowest bidder!
I am sick and tired of watching Voyager and Defiant take one blast from
an enemy ship only to hear the helmsman bellow: "Impulse engines
off-line, sir!" Then here tactical tell me (no shit): "Shields down to
80 percent!" AFTER ONE SHOT!?! Jeez, at that rate, it only takes five
shots and you hear the usual, "Hullbreach on Deck 12, sir!" After two
shots, every console on the Bridge starts to explode; after three shots,
weapons go off-line, and after four shots, a warp core breech is eminent.
NCC 1701 was able to take more of a pounding than these ships, which
were designed for battle.
"...she canna take much more of this, Captain!"
And how many damn bulkheads and deck plates does Voyager have in spares?
I don't get the replicator rationing bit--if they have that much
resources to be able to reproduce shuttles and bulkheads, and repair
entire decks destroyed by the feeble-minded Kazon, why the hell can't the
replicate a damn cheeseburger?!?
George
--
_
//\
// \\
// ACHIEVEMENT...1911
\\ //
\\ // gch...@ix.netcom.com
\\/
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
Chad Millar
Carol hartley wrote:
>
> Chad Millar wrote:
> >
> > Carol hartley wrote:
> > >
> > > Which is a stronger warship the Defiant class are the Sovereign class
> > > ????????
> >
> > Thats an easy one. Defiant class, since Soverign's aren't warships.
>
Defiant naturally, since its a dedicated combat vessel.
Steve
In article <6j9i21$i...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
Hell...@worldnet.att.net says...
>
>????????
The ablative armor on the Defiant makes the ship a better choice in
battle. It's also smaller so has better manueverability at impulse speeds.
Of course, it all depends on the ships crew. I'd bet Sisko in an
excelsior class ship would've been able to wipe the Valiant with Red squad
in command.
Steve
In article <3558E71F...@sprintmail.com>, la...@sprintmail.com
says...
>
> I don't think the commissions on Valiant were legitimate. Here
you
>have the captain dying and all the other line officers dead. The ship
>is loaded with cadets. Is the captain really going to promote a cadet
>to captain, or is he going to say "you're in charge, get the ship to
>safety"? It would be like Picard promoting Data to captain while he
>left the ship on an away mission.
I believe what Waters did was keep crew morale up by 'promoting' everyone
to a real rank. They had to maintain radio silence and surely, everyone
was scared out of hell at first. But by giving specific duties to each
crew member, they probably all realized that this was for real -- they had
to do their duty as officers of starfleet -- they weren't cadets at the
academy studying for the next exam anymore.
It's really no different than what Janeway did on Voyager. She gave the
maquis crewmembers field ranks so they would feel accepted. She also
promoted Tuvok (or whoever, I don't remember) to a higher field rank. She
could probably promote everyone, and even herself, to admiral or something
like that. But unlike Waters, Janeway is a REAL officer and knows what
duty is really all about.
Chad Millar
Steve wrote:
>
> In article <6j9i21$i...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
> Hell...@worldnet.att.net says...
> >
> >????????
>
> The ablative armor on the Defiant makes the ship a better choice in
> battle.
By this you mean *the* Defiant. All other Defiant class vessels do not
have ablative armour.
> It's also smaller so has better manueverability at impulse speeds.
Correct.
> Of course, it all depends on the ships crew. I'd bet Sisko in an
> excelsior class ship would've been able to wipe the Valiant with Red squad
> in command.
I'd doubt it. Defiant's eat Excelsiors for breakfast.
Roberto Castillo
After a long, hard day of battling the soulless minions of orthodoxy, I came
home just in time to see that Carol hartley <Hell...@worldnet.att.net> had
written:
>????????
Sovereign. Everything we've been told seems to imply that it's at the top of
the Starfleet food chain in terms of firepower. For all we know it may have
been created as a sort of "Big Brother" for the Defiant class.
Imagine if you will, a task force made up of a Sovereign Class flag ship,
eight Defiant Class escorts and maybe two Intrepid Class scout ships. If
Starfleet built a few of these battle groups, they might be getting their
*** kicked by the Dominion.
--
"I am First Omet'iklan, and I am dead. As of this moment, we are all
dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives. This we do gladly, for
we are Jem'Hadar. Remember, victory is life."
-- Omet'iklan
"I am Chief Miles Edward O'Brien. I'm very much alive, and I intend
to *stay* that way."
-- O'Brien
"I'm worried about Bart. Today, he's sucking people's blood,
tommorrow he might be smoking."
-Marge Simpson
Roberto Castillo
University of Illinois at Chicago
E-Mail: rca...@uic.edu
http://www2.uic.edu/~rcasti1/rcasti1.html
Roberto Castillo
After a long, hard day of battling the soulless minions of orthodoxy, I came
<gch...@popd.ix.netcom.com> had written:
>Chad Millar <c_mi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Carol hartley wrote:
>>> Which is a stronger warship the Defiant class are the Sovereign class
>>> ????????
>>Thats an easy one. Defiant class, since Soverign's aren't warships.
>NEITHER!!! Starfleet vessels are notorious for NOT being able to take a
>licking and keep on ticking. Clearly, Starfleet ships are manufactured
>by U.S. defense contractors, awarded to the lowest bidder!
This is probably true. It is also true in real life.
>I am sick and tired of watching Voyager and Defiant take one blast from
>an enemy ship only to hear the helmsman bellow: "Impulse engines
>off-line, sir!" Then here tactical tell me (no shit): "Shields down to
>80 percent!" AFTER ONE SHOT!?! Jeez, at that rate, it only takes five
>shots and you hear the usual, "Hullbreach on Deck 12, sir!" After two
>shots, every console on the Bridge starts to explode; after three shots,
>weapons go off-line, and after four shots, a warp core breech is eminent.
> NCC 1701 was able to take more of a pounding than these ships, which
>were designed for battle.
Voyager wasn't designed for battle.
And as far as the Defiant is concerned, have you ever actually seen it in
battle? It doesn't seem so from your post. The Defiant routinely takes a lot
of enemy fire, often unshielded mind you, and just keeps on fighting. "The
Ship," "The Die is Cast," WotW, FC, and "Valiant" are all very good examples
of Defiant Class ships enduring withering enemy fire.
Shawn Hill
Steve (st...@nospam.com) wrote:
: promoted Tuvok (or whoever, I don't remember) to a higher field rank. She
: could probably promote everyone, and even herself, to admiral or something
: like that. But unlike Waters, Janeway is a REAL officer and knows what
: duty is really all about.
And her promotions were actually legal, rather than delusional attempts to maintain
contro--
Hey, waitaminute....?!
Shawn
Timothy J. Lee
"George M. Chavis" <gch...@popd.ix.netcom.com> writes:
|I am sick and tired of watching Voyager and Defiant take one blast from
|an enemy ship only to hear the helmsman bellow: "Impulse engines
|off-line, sir!" Then here tactical tell me (no shit): "Shields down to
|80 percent!" AFTER ONE SHOT!?!
Well, combat effects do seem to be inconsistent. For example, with
the Defiant and Valiant:
Defiant easily withstood initial attack from two Dominion
ships when acting as bait (then the Rotorran uncloaked
to destroy one, and Defiant easily destroyed the
other) ("Favor the Bold"?).
Defiant withstood pounding from various Klingon ships ("Way of
the Warrior").
Defiant broke through Dominion fleet ("Sacrifice of Angels").
Defiant survived pounding from three Dominion ships while
laying mines ("Call to Arms").
Defiant was easily disabled by one Dominion ship ("One Little
Ship").
Valiant had trouble destroying one Dominion ship ("Valiant").
Valiant withstood lots of pounding from the Dominion battleship
before being disabled ("Valiant").
Of course, the TOS Enterprise withstood a blast from Nomad that was
supposedly equal to 90 photon torpedoes ("The Changeling"). Did the
Orion ship in "Journey to Babel" fire 90 photon torpedoes or equivalent
at the Enterprise?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee timlee@
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. netcom.com
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
El Chico Loco
On Wed, 13 May 1998, Timothy J. Lee wrote:
> Defiant was easily disabled by one Dominion ship ("One Little
> Ship").
You also have to take into consideration the fact that the Defiant had
its tractor beam on the runabout. Since they had trouble disengaging it,
they couldn't get their shields up to protect themselves.
Take care,
George :-)
LeeAnn Rucker
In article <35564196...@sprintmail.com>, Lasher <la...@sprintmail.com>
wrote:
>Getting
>starry-eyed over his promotion to chief of engineering by a member of
>Red Squad, I was truly wondering how far Nog would go before he
>stepped in and said this was wrong. It wasn't until Valiant was
>falling down around him, and I thought that was the best choice that
>could have been made for that character.
>
> However, instead of the Jake/Nog conversation at the end, I would
>have very much preferred Nog talking about Valiant with Captain Sisko,
>or O'Brien or someone else with extensive battle experience.
Anyone else flashing back to O'Brien telling Nog something to the effect of
"by the time you're in command of a starship, there won't *be* anyone left
to call you captain" - IOW, you'll be in deep shit. It looked like Nog
recognized the fact that he was in that very situation.
Kintak
On Tue, 12 May 1998 09:14:03 -0500, Carol hartley
<Hell...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>????????
Who cares? Both ships will obviously have strong spots at different
points.
Neville Lee See
:
: The ablative armor on the Defiant makes the ship a better choice in
: battle. It's also smaller so has better manueverability at impulse speeds.
:
: Of course, it all depends on the ships crew. I'd bet Sisko in an
: in command.
hehehe, Whats her name in an Excelsior class ship whipped Worf in the
Defiant.
Nev (ducking for cover)
Paul Cassidy
Chad Millar wrote in message <35593089...@hotmail.com>...
>Carol hartley wrote:
>>
>> Chad Millar wrote:
>> >
>> > Carol hartley wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Which is a stronger warship the Defiant class are the Sovereign class
>> > > ????????
>> >
>> > Thats an easy one. Defiant class, since Soverign's aren't warships.
>>
>> Well which one is a better combat ship Sovereign or defiant class
>
>Defiant naturally, since its a dedicated combat vessel.
The Federation have come a long way in strengthening their ships. In first
contact, we saw the Enterprise take a full on hit from a Borg cube, without
any damage (or even appreciable lose to the shields). This was the same kind
of attack that we have seen destroy older ships with one hit previously.
The Sovereign class should be far superior to the Defiant class in a combat
situation. As a larger and newer ship, it stands to reason that the
Sovereign would have greater power supplies, defences and other resources.
Think of it along these lines.....during world wars one and two, a destroyer
was theoretically capable of sinking a battleship with torpedoes. That made
them dangerous ships, that had to be respected.....HOWEVER.....No one in
their right mind would choose a Destroyer over a battleship in a one on one
battle.
In the star trek universe, the same thing applies. However, the main reason
for the Sovereign beating a Defiant can be summed up in one word.....
....Speed!
The Defiant class is really pretty slow compared to most modern starfleet
designs. The Sovereign would be able to dance around the Defiant class, and
choose it's moment to attack. The best strategy would probably to perform
high speed attack runs, at random times. The Defiant crew would have to
remain on alert, but the Sovereigns crew would know when the attack was
coming and could rest in between attacks. After a few hours the Defiant crew
would lose their edge.
Chad Millar
Paul Cassidy wrote:
>
> Chad Millar wrote in message <35593089...@hotmail.com>...
> >Carol hartley wrote:
> >>
> >> Chad Millar wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Carol hartley wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Which is a stronger warship the Defiant class are the Sovereign class
> >> > > ????????
> >> >
> >> > Thats an easy one. Defiant class, since Soverign's aren't warships.
> >>
> >> Well which one is a better combat ship Sovereign or defiant class
> >
> >Defiant naturally, since its a dedicated combat vessel.
>
> The Federation have come a long way in strengthening their ships. In first
> contact, we saw the Enterprise take a full on hit from a Borg cube, without
> any damage (or even appreciable lose to the shields). This was the same kind
> of attack that we have seen destroy older ships with one hit previously.
The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
Put it this way, I could not see a Soveriegn surviving what Defiant
survived. I'd also rather be in a Defiant if I were faced by say 5
Jem'Hadar ships.
> The Sovereign class should be far superior to the Defiant class in a combat
> situation. As a larger and newer ship, it stands to reason that the
> Sovereign would have greater power supplies, defences and other resources.
It's also a sitting duck. Soverign has to take every hit that is throw
at it, while Defiant's can evade much of the fire directed at them.
> Think of it along these lines.....during world wars one and two, a destroyer
> was theoretically capable of sinking a battleship with torpedoes. That made
> them dangerous ships, that had to be respected.....HOWEVER.....No one in
> their right mind would choose a Destroyer over a battleship in a one on one
> battle.
>
> In the star trek universe, the same thing applies. However, the main reason
> for the Sovereign beating a Defiant can be summed up in one word.....
>
> ....Speed!
>
> The Defiant class is really pretty slow compared to most modern starfleet
> designs.
In warp speed, yes - Defiant's maximum warp was warp 8 last time I
heard.
> The Sovereign would be able to dance around the Defiant class, and
> choose it's moment to attack.
There is a difference in higher warp speeds an being able to dance
around other ships. The advantage of the Soverign's warp speed is that
the Defiant could not escape from a Soverign, nor could it chase one
down if a Soverign ran from it. When brought down to impulse, the
Defiant has a heavy advantage. Its small size, high manouverability and
high impulse speed would give it the edge. Just look at Defiant's battle
with the Negh'var in "Shattered Mirror". The Negh'var had heavier
weapons and probably a better warp speed, yet the Defiant took it apart.
> The best strategy would probably to perform
> high speed attack runs, at random times. The Defiant crew would have to
> remain on alert, but the Sovereigns crew would know when the attack was
> coming and could rest in between attacks. After a few hours the Defiant crew
> would lose their edge.
If we were talking about *the* Defiant, the solution to this strategy
would be to cloak. If it were standard Defiant class, simply engaging in
similar tactics would nullify the Soverigns tactics - the speed gap
between them is not that great an advantage except in pusuit/escape
manouvers.
rs...@coqui.net
> The snotty-teenager bit is not original, granted, but I think it's
> effective and it fits perfectly with what we already knew of Red
> Squad. I think the story did a decent job of demonstrating how their
> lack of experience was an even bigger problem than their arrogance.
> An experienced officer, much less a captain, would never have
> *invited* criticism during the briefing/pep rally. The suffocating
> environment of Valiant would have made Captain Jellico proud, though.
>
> The only real value Dorian added to Valiant was her long talk about
> growing up on the moon. I thought the scene was decently played,
> although the monologue was starting to remind me of Babylon 5's more
> plodding moments (getting characterization out of the way by having
> said character chatter on for a minute and a half or so about oneself,
> then jump back into the plot). However, this long conversation worked
> because it did more than give a Red Squad cadet a personality; the
> conversation itself led to some consequences for Jake and illustrated
> just how tightly wound Valiant's command had become.
>
The 'girl from the Moon' monologue reminded me of an old Arthur C. Clarke
short story. As a matter of fact, her description of how her father would take
her out and show her around, descriptions of the landscape, etc. sounded very
similar to Clarke's story. The only difference is that at the end of the short
story, the girl looks up and sees the Earth glowing with radiation after a
global thermonuclear war wasted everything and everyone, leaving the lunar
colony as humanity's last hope.
Saludos
RAUL
Paul Cassidy
>> The Federation have come a long way in strengthening their ships. In
first
>> contact, we saw the Enterprise take a full on hit from a Borg cube,
without
>> any damage (or even appreciable lose to the shields). This was the same
kind
>> of attack that we have seen destroy older ships with one hit previously.
>
>The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
>shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
>now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
>armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
There's no evidence for this though. Firstly we have no idea when the
Defiant joined the battle. Secondly we do not know that the Sovereigns do
not have armour (if you know otherwise, please state your source (genuine
query, not flaming you!). Thirdly, we have no idea when the Defiants shields
failed.
>
>Put it this way, I could not see a Soveriegn surviving what Defiant
>survived. I'd also rather be in a Defiant if I were faced by say 5
>Jem'Hadar ships.
>
>> The Sovereign class should be far superior to the Defiant class in a
combat
>> situation. As a larger and newer ship, it stands to reason that the
>> Sovereign would have greater power supplies, defences and other
resources.
>
>It's also a sitting duck. Soverign has to take every hit that is throw
>at it, while Defiant's can evade much of the fire directed at them.
Sitting duck is a bit of an overstatement. It can at least evade an enemy
using speed. (see below)
The diffenerence between warp 8 and warp 9.6 is considerable. Warp 9.6 is
nearly TWICE as fast as warp 8.0 (1024 vrs 1909 times the speed of light).
In any kind of tactical sitation, a speed advantage that great is a huge
help. Look at the difference between the early jets and the propellor planes
at the end of WW2. The speed differnece is the same as if one ship were at
impulse, whilst the other was at warp 8. It has been established in ST that
the ship at impulse would be at a huge disadvantage.
>
>> The best strategy would probably to perform
>> high speed attack runs, at random times. The Defiant crew would have to
>> remain on alert, but the Sovereigns crew would know when the attack was
>> coming and could rest in between attacks. After a few hours the Defiant
crew
>> would lose their edge.
>
>If we were talking about *the* Defiant, the solution to this strategy
>would be to cloak. If it were standard Defiant class, simply engaging in
>similar tactics would nullify the Soverigns tactics - the speed gap
>between them is not that great an advantage except in pusuit/escape
>manouvers.
>
The cloak doesn't counts, it's not standard on the class.
The Defiant class couldn't engage in similar tactics. The Sovereign could
outrun it on one nacelle (ok a bit of an exaggeration). The Defiant just has
to sit there and wait for the next attack. Also, the Defiants main advantage
(those nifty pulse phasers) are negated in a warp speed battle (phasers
don't work effectively at warp speeds!), so both ships come down to
torpedos. At this point, I think that the Sovereign holds all the cards!
Chad Millar
Paul Cassidy wrote:
>
> >> The Federation have come a long way in strengthening their ships. In
> first
> >> contact, we saw the Enterprise take a full on hit from a Borg cube,
> without
> >> any damage (or even appreciable lose to the shields). This was the same
> kind
> >> of attack that we have seen destroy older ships with one hit previously.
> >
> >The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
> >shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
> >now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
> >armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
>
> There's no evidence for this though. Firstly we have no idea when the
> Defiant joined the battle.
Yes we do. During the communication link to the battle you hear commands
being given to "Defiant and Bozeman". Data then says it will take
Enterprise-E three hours to reach Earth.
> Secondly we do not know that the Sovereigns do
> not have armour (if you know otherwise, please state your source (genuine
> query, not flaming you!).
At the moment, there is nothing certain, but it is *highly* unlikely
that a Soverign class ship would be given armour when frontline warships
in the Defiant class are not.
> Thirdly, we have no idea when the Defiants shields
> failed.
Defiant's shields failed when the helm officer says "We've lost shields,
and our weapons are gone".
You missed my point - in battle, impulse is more important than warp. At
impulse, Defiant has the advantage.
> >
> >> The best strategy would probably to perform
> >> high speed attack runs, at random times. The Defiant crew would have to
> >> remain on alert, but the Sovereigns crew would know when the attack was
> >> coming and could rest in between attacks. After a few hours the Defiant
> crew
> >> would lose their edge.
> >
> >If we were talking about *the* Defiant, the solution to this strategy
> >would be to cloak. If it were standard Defiant class, simply engaging in
> >similar tactics would nullify the Soverigns tactics - the speed gap
> >between them is not that great an advantage except in pusuit/escape
> >manouvers.
> >
>
> The cloak doesn't counts, it's not standard on the class.
Ok, I wasn't saure if you were talking class or individual ships.
> The Defiant class couldn't engage in similar tactics. The Sovereign could
> outrun it on one nacelle (ok a bit of an exaggeration). The Defiant just has
> to sit there and wait for the next attack. Also, the Defiants main advantage
> (those nifty pulse phasers) are negated in a warp speed battle (phasers
> don't work effectively at warp speeds!), so both ships come down to
> torpedos. At this point, I think that the Sovereign holds all the cards!
Warp battle are few and far between. Its pretty much a stalemate. Like I
said, if a Defiant needed to run away, it couldn't. If it needed to
chase down a Soverign, it couldn't. Soverign can pick its fights, but
Defiant has the bigger punch.
Paul Cassidy
>> In first contact, we saw the Enterprise take a full on hit from a Borg
cube,
>> without
>> >> any damage (or even appreciable lose to the shields). This was the
same
>> kind
>> >> of attack that we have seen destroy older ships with one hit
previously.
>> >
>> >The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
>> >shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
>> >now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
>> >armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
>>
>> There's no evidence for this though. Firstly we have no idea when the
>> Defiant joined the battle.
>
>Yes we do. During the communication link to the battle you hear commands
>being given to "Defiant and Bozeman". Data then says it will take
>Enterprise-E three hours to reach Earth.
Ok, I'll take your word for that. However, I would add that there was an
entire fleet supporting the Defiant.
>
>> Secondly we do not know that the Sovereigns do
>> not have armour (if you know otherwise, please state your source (genuine
>> query, not flaming you!).
>
>At the moment, there is nothing certain, but it is *highly* unlikely
>that a Soverign class ship would be given armour when frontline warships
>in the Defiant class are not.
I have a bit of a problem with this though. Sisko supposedly added the
armour himself. Where did he get it? If it's so good, why are starfleet not
adding it to other ships? Your point is valid, but it does seem a little
strange.
>
>> Thirdly, we have no idea when the Defiants shields
>> failed.
>
>Defiant's shields failed when the helm officer says "We've lost shields,
>and our weapons are gone".
>
Which was just as the Enterprise arrived, which means that it hadn't been
taking hits on the armour for very long.
>Warp battle are few and far between. Its pretty much a stalemate. Like I
>said, if a Defiant needed to run away, it couldn't. If it needed to
>chase down a Soverign, it couldn't. Soverign can pick its fights, but
>Defiant has the bigger punch.
>
But you missed my point too. You fight a battle where you have the
advantages, not the enemy. It doesn't matter if the Defiant slows down, it's
phasers still will not work against another ship that is travelling at warp
speeds. Therefore, (unless the Sovereigns captain is a real dimbo), the
Sovereign will NOT slow down, and will make high speed slashing attacks. It
could pop into torpedo range, fire, and then withdraw. The Sovereign has the
speed to outdistance torpedos, the Defiant doesn't. At warp, the Sovereign
is much faster than phasers. They literally could attack and be gone before
the energy has had time to leave the phaser array.
If the Sovereign stays at warp, then we can pretty much ignore the phasers
on both ships. It therefore comes down to the number of torpedos launchers.
I think (but not sure) that the Sovereign has a slight, one launcher,
advantage here. I'm also pretty sure that the Sovereign carries more
torpedos. She also has better sensors.
The Defiant has better manoverability, armour, and possibly better shields
(not sure about this one since the Sovereign would have more raw power to
call on if necessary).
If I were the Defiant's captain, I would head for the nearest star system,
and get close to a planet. That way the Sovereign would not be able to use
warp speed (supposedly, though ships have gone to warp inside systems
before), and I would have the advantages.
The down side to this, is that you end up stuck in a system afraid to come
out. Since the Sovereign has better sensors, she could sit outside the
Defiant's sensor range. The Defiant would have to come out to see if she
were there, and then the Sovereign could attack.
Chad Millar
Paul Cassidy wrote:
>
> >> In first contact, we saw the Enterprise take a full on hit from a Borg
> cube,
> >> without
> >> >> any damage (or even appreciable lose to the shields). This was the
> same
> >> kind
> >> >> of attack that we have seen destroy older ships with one hit
> previously.
> >> >
> >> >The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
> >> >shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
> >> >now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
> >> >armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
> >>
> >> There's no evidence for this though. Firstly we have no idea when the
> >> Defiant joined the battle.
> >
> >Yes we do. During the communication link to the battle you hear commands
> >being given to "Defiant and Bozeman". Data then says it will take
> >Enterprise-E three hours to reach Earth.
>
> Ok, I'll take your word for that. However, I would add that there was an
> entire fleet supporting the Defiant.
A fleet which was being shredded, while the Defiant was surviving.
> >> Secondly we do not know that the Sovereigns do
> >> not have armour (if you know otherwise, please state your source (genuine
> >> query, not flaming you!).
> >
> >At the moment, there is nothing certain, but it is *highly* unlikely
> >that a Soverign class ship would be given armour when frontline warships
> >in the Defiant class are not.
>
> I have a bit of a problem with this though. Sisko supposedly added the
> armour himself. Where did he get it? If it's so good, why are starfleet not
> adding it to other ships? Your point is valid, but it does seem a little
> strange.
Well, Defiant was an advanced weapons project, and since Sisko was
involved with building her, he would have known of other weapons
developments. Since not even Starfleet Intelligence knew about the
ablative armour (as mentioned by Captain Bentine in DS9 "Paridise Lost")
it's likely Sisko used his connections at Utopia Planitia to get the
armour.
> >
> >> Thirdly, we have no idea when the Defiants shields
> >> failed.
> >
> >Defiant's shields failed when the helm officer says "We've lost shields,
> >and our weapons are gone".
> >
>
> Which was just as the Enterprise arrived, which means that it hadn't been
> taking hits on the armour for very long.
My view of that was that the Defiant has lost shields at some time
before that, then got them raised again.
Like I said, the Soverign can pick its fights, the Defiant has a slight
advantage in those fights.
Timo S Saloniemi
In article <35564196...@sprintmail.com> Lasher <la...@sprintmail.com> writes:
>Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>>
>> WARNING: Brave enough to want spoilers for DS9's "Valiant"? If
>> so, they're below.
And a couple of random comments from someone who hasn't even seen the
episode yet...
> However, instead of the Jake/Nog conversation at the end, I would
>have very much preferred Nog talking about Valiant with Captain Sisko,
>or O'Brien or someone else with extensive battle experience. It's not
>that I had any real problems with the closing scene, but it didn't
>really make me sit up and take notice either. I think a scene with
>Sisko or O'Brien would have been a better choice.
Were these main characters present in the episode in other scenes, then?
Or did Brooks and Meaney have a day/week off for a change?
> Jake's arguments were the biggest gripe I had with the episode,
>because he (or no one else for that matter) tried the one argument
>that could have been the most effective. Namely, if the data Valiant
>collected from that Dominion destroyer was so damned important, their
>primary responsibility should be to ferry it to the nearest starbase
>so that an entire fleet of starships can make use of that data instead
>of just one. Given Red Squad's self-importance, that argument may not
>work either. However, it's a lot better than telling a shipload of
>egotists that they can't do something because "it's impossible". Jake
>practically dared them to do it, and he is intelligent enough to come
>up with a better argument than the one he came up with.
OTOH, Jake has grown up with a dad who makes difficult decisions with
galaxy-sweeping consequences without consulting Starfleet or the UFP
Council. It would not be impossible for him to sympathize with the
self-important approach of the cadets. Were it Benjamin Sisko running
that ship behind enemy lines, it is possible he could try something
as harebrained as the cadets did. At least Jake would have a good
reason to believe he would do so, since Jake really isn't privy to Ben's
internal turmoil, Starfleet training or unvoiced thoughts, but just
sees his father start a war here, end another there, destroy 2800 ships
with a couple of words...
>> -- Given that the last time we saw Red Squad, they'd been used as part
>> of Admiral Leyton's plan to take over Starfleet from within, I'm a bit
>> surprised to see them in such good standing, and I'm *really*
>> surprised to see them admiring Sisko so much, since he's the one who
>> brought them down.
> ...And why the hell was Shepard there? He was instrumental in
>sabatoging Earth's entire power net, for Chrissake! He may have been
>following orders, but I think it was extrememly poor judgement to
>place someone with a history of zealously following questionable
>orders on one of Starfleet's most powerful attack vessels.
One wonders if the cadets were really aboard just *because* of that
quality. Perhaps the original captain had in mind a mission that would
have raised too many eyebrows among a regular, trained crew? The
intelligence-gathering duty might have been just a smokescreen for
anything ranging from contacting the Founders to secretly attacking
passive UFP allies in order to provoke them to join the fight. The
cadets wouldn't have known anything about it before actually starting
the "black" part of their mission, of course - and the death of the
regular officers hid evidence of the mission for good.
>> -- The effects for the various battle scenes were quite good, both early
>> on in the episode and during the assault on the battleship. (I
>> particularly liked the shot of the Valiant going between two struts,
>> seen only on the Valiant's viewscreen.)
>
> I really liked the explosion that engulfed the destroyer, but didn't
>destroy it. It may not have meant much sense, but it was pretty
>dramatic. I also liked the escape pod scenes as well. However, I
>thought the FX were a lot more noticable as CGI than usual. DS9
>usually does a better job with that sort of thing.
A request for spoilers here: Did we see the escape pods of a Defiant
class starship here? Or are you talking about Dominion pods? Any
other technology tidbits revealed about our favorite starship
design?
Timo Saloniemi
.
.
Lasher
Spoilers:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
>
> And a couple of random comments from someone who hasn't even seen the
> episode yet...
>
> > However, instead of the Jake/Nog conversation at the end, I would
> >have very much preferred Nog talking about Valiant with Captain Sisko,
> >or O'Brien or someone else with extensive battle experience. It's not
> >that I had any real problems with the closing scene, but it didn't
> >really make me sit up and take notice either. I think a scene with
> >Sisko or O'Brien would have been a better choice.
>
> Were these main characters present in the episode in other scenes, then?
> Or did Brooks and Meaney have a day/week off for a change?
Brooks was in the last few minutes of the show. Meany wasn't in
"Valiant" at all. In fact, Meany hasn't appeared for at least the
last three episodes or so. Must be filming a movie he plays a major
role in.
>
> > Jake's arguments were the biggest gripe I had with the episode,
> >because he (or no one else for that matter) tried the one argument
> >that could have been the most effective. Namely, if the data Valiant
> >collected from that Dominion destroyer was so damned important, their
> >primary responsibility should be to ferry it to the nearest starbase
> >so that an entire fleet of starships can make use of that data instead
> >of just one. Given Red Squad's self-importance, that argument may not
> >work either. However, it's a lot better than telling a shipload of
> >egotists that they can't do something because "it's impossible". Jake
> >practically dared them to do it, and he is intelligent enough to come
> >up with a better argument than the one he came up with.
>
> OTOH, Jake has grown up with a dad who makes difficult decisions with
> galaxy-sweeping consequences without consulting Starfleet or the UFP
> Council. It would not be impossible for him to sympathize with the
> self-important approach of the cadets.
The way the story played out, the cadets were silent-running so they
could tail the "new" Dominion destroyer and collect some important
technical information on it. Once that mission was complete, they
decided to take on a ship "twice as big as a Galaxy-class starship,
and three times as powerful" all by themselves. Given that they
thought the information suggested a *major* design flaw in the
destroyer's design, it would have been better for the Federation if
Valiant had warped to the nearest starbase so the entire fleet could
take advantage of it. Sisko is headstrong, I don't deny that.
However, I don't think he or any other Captain would have gambled with
his crews' lives when it wasn't necessary. It wasn't a matter of
Valiant having to defend itself, the cadets were the clear aggressors.
> > I really liked the explosion that engulfed the destroyer, but didn't
> >destroy it. It may not have meant much sense, but it was pretty
> >dramatic. I also liked the escape pod scenes as well. However, I
> >thought the FX were a lot more noticable as CGI than usual. DS9
> >usually does a better job with that sort of thing.
>
> A request for spoilers here: Did we see the escape pods of a Defiant
> class starship here? Or are you talking about Dominion pods? Any
> other technology tidbits revealed about our favorite starship
> design?
Oh, we saw the Valiant's escape pods. There were 8 of them. I liked
that scene more than the big explosion(tm), actually. They were
launching just as Valiant was blowing up, and the destroyer was trying
to pick off as many of them as possible.
MARC (aka BRY)
In article <355B880C...@hotmail.com>,
Chad Millar <c_mi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
>shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
>now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
>armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
Geez...HERE WE GO AGAIN!! Defiant survived repeated hits from the
borg tractor beam. If you'll notice, the tractor beam was concentrate on
the one portion of the hull where the ARMOR WAS DAMAGED!!! So in fact,
Defiant had no shields AND no armor (at least in that one spot).
We don't know for sure the length of time Defiant was in the fight.
We do know that it was in the initial encounter and then again at Sector
001.
It is NOT safe to assume tjat Sovereign doesn't have the armor.
Where did you get the info that Defiant class ship DON'T have armor? Of
course it does!!! Otherwise, Valiant would have been toast once their
shields had collapsed!!!!!
>Put it this way, I could not see a Soveriegn surviving what Defiant
>survived. I'd also rather be in a Defiant if I were faced by say 5
>Jem'Hadar ships.
Of course not!! There's no way the Soveerign could maneuver that
quickly, so there's no way the sovereign class ship could dodge the
multiple emitters/launchers of the battleship!!!
I would rather be on the Defiant or any Definat class ship against
practically anything in the quadrant!!
>It's also a sitting duck. Soverign has to take every hit that is throw
>at it, while Defiant's can evade much of the fire directed at them.
Yup!!
>> The Defiant class is really pretty slow compared to most modern starfleet
>> designs.
>In warp speed, yes - Defiant's maximum warp was warp 8 last time I
>heard.
8, maybe 9. But certainly no match for Intrepid class or even GCS.
>There is a difference in higher warp speeds an being able to dance
>around other ships. The advantage of the Soverign's warp speed is that
>the Defiant could not escape from a Soverign, nor could it chase one
>down if a Soverign ran from it. When brought down to impulse, the
>Defiant has a heavy advantage. Its small size, high manouverability and
>high impulse speed would give it the edge. Just look at Defiant's battle
>with the Negh'var in "Shattered Mirror". The Negh'var had heavier
>weapons and probably a better warp speed, yet the Defiant took it apart.
Good analogy. Defiant also has another advantage -- the cloak.
Defiant can escape from a Sovereign. If it jumps to warp first and then
cloaks. At sublight speeds...Defiant has a decisive advantge.
--
Marc Escuro [R] They reach into your room,
Bryan E. Esquire Just feel their gentle touch.
bas...@cats.ucsc.edu When all hope is gone, you know
http://www2.ucsc.edu/~bashir/ Sad Songs say so much
Charles A Robison
wasn't alot of the armor put on Defiant when that Admiral and his coup
failed. When Sisko and Odo were called to earth to run security.
Chad Millar
MARC (aka BRY) wrote:
>
> In article <355B880C...@hotmail.com>,
> Chad Millar <c_mi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
> >shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
> >now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
> >armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
>
> Geez...HERE WE GO AGAIN!! Defiant survived repeated hits from the
> borg tractor beam. If you'll notice, the tractor beam was concentrate on
> the one portion of the hull where the ARMOR WAS DAMAGED!!! So in fact,
> Defiant had no shields AND no armor (at least in that one spot).
> We don't know for sure the length of time Defiant was in the fight.
> We do know that it was in the initial encounter and then again at Sector
> 001.
> It is NOT safe to assume tjat Sovereign doesn't have the armor.
> Where did you get the info that Defiant class ship DON'T have armor? Of
> course it does!!! Otherwise, Valiant would have been toast once their
> shields had collapsed!!!!!
I was led to believe it was said in "Valiant" that the Valiant did not
have ablative armour.
Chad Millar
Charles A Robison wrote:
>
> wasn't alot of the armor put on Defiant when that Admiral and his coup
> failed. When Sisko and Odo were called to earth to run security.
No, the ablative armour was added to the Defiant after it was shot up in
"The Search". It wasn't officially added either, sinc Captain Bentine of
the USS Lokota said that Starfleet Intelligence didn't know about the
armour.
Colin Polonowski
>No, the ablative armour was added to the Defiant after it was shot up in
>"The Search". It wasn't officially added either, sinc Captain Bentine of
>the USS Lokota said that Starfleet Intelligence didn't know about the
>armour.
Does anyone actually watch DS9 or is it just a lot of (sometimes accurate)
guess work...
The Defiant was designed with Ablative Armour - Sisko, when he was at Utopia
Planitia, helped design it to fight the Borg and ablative armour was part of
the design.
MARC (aka BRY)
In article <6k2p7b$2q54$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
Charles A Robison <CAR...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>wasn't alot of the armor put on Defiant when that Admiral and his coup
>failed. When Sisko and Odo were called to earth to run security.
NO!!! Ablative armor was mentioned a half a season earlier!!! It
was the time travel episode where Sisko has to take the place of that one
acctivist. bashir and Dax were transported along with sisko into earth's
past befcause of chronoton particles clinging to the Defiant's
ablative armor.
MARC (aka BRY)
In article <3564FAE8...@hotmail.com>,
Chad Millar <c_mi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Charles A Robison wrote:
>>
>> wasn't alot of the armor put on Defiant when that Admiral and his coup
>> failed. When Sisko and Odo were called to earth to run security.
>"The Search". It wasn't officially added either, sinc Captain Bentine of
>the USS Lokota said that Starfleet Intelligence didn't know about the
>armour.
Could be, but tehre is no proof of that at all. The best theory
IMHO, is the fact that the armor was added as an ORIGINAL part of the design
because it WAS a warship and WAs designed to fight the borg. it's only
logical that you protect the ship as much as possible.
Mike Dicenso
On Fri, 22 May 1998, Chad Millar wrote:
>
> I was led to believe it was said in "Valiant" that the Valiant did not
> have ablative armour.
I rewatched the episode last night, and it was NOT mentioned at any point
in the episode wether or not they had ablative armor. Also it may interest
you to know that the Defiant class is not the only SF vessels equipped
with ablative armour. The Prometheus from VGR's "A Message In A Bottle"
was stated to be equipped with ablative armor as well.
-Mike
Mike Dicenso
On Fri, 22 May 1998, Chad Millar wrote:
> Charles A Robison wrote:
> >
> > wasn't alot of the armor put on Defiant when that Admiral and his coup
> > failed. When Sisko and Odo were called to earth to run security.
>
> No, the ablative armour was added to the Defiant after it was shot up in
> "The Search". It wasn't officially added either, sinc Captain Bentine of
> the USS Lokota said that Starfleet Intelligence didn't know about the
> armour.
>
>
I believe the first mention of ablative armor was in the episodes "Past
Tense part I & II", the episodes where Sisko, Dax, and Dr. Bashir are
accidently sent back in time due to a transporter accident. Just about
eight episodes down the road from "The Search pts. I & II".
-Mike
Paul Cassidy
>>> The Defiant class is really pretty slow compared to most modern
starfleet
>>> designs.
>>In warp speed, yes - Defiant's maximum warp was warp 8 last time I
>>heard.
>
> 8, maybe 9. But certainly no match for Intrepid class or even GCS.
>
>>There is a difference in higher warp speeds an being able to dance
>>around other ships. The advantage of the Soverign's warp speed is that
>>the Defiant could not escape from a Soverign, nor could it chase one
>>down if a Soverign ran from it. When brought down to impulse, the
>>Defiant has a heavy advantage. Its small size, high manouverability and
>>high impulse speed would give it the edge. Just look at Defiant's battle
>>with the Negh'var in "Shattered Mirror". The Negh'var had heavier
>>weapons and probably a better warp speed, yet the Defiant took it apart.
>
That was a truely silly episode. The Negh'var should have taken the Defiant
apart. However, the Captain (Worf) was stupid, and played to his enemies
strengths, and not his own. That's like sitting in a top flight jet fighter,
and then slowing down and trying to out turn a spitfire. The spitfire will
win that battle every time. In reality the jet would stand off an make high
speed slashing attacks. Basically, it doesn't matter what ship you're in, if
you are that stupid you will lose every time.
I won't even get onto the subject that the rebels built the Defiant from
scratch in a year, on a mining station, with no resources, and no highly
skilled technical people. And amazingly, it all worked on its first run out,
in combat with possibly the most powerful warship in the quadrent.
If the Sovereign captain is half bright, he will not slow down. If he stays
at warp, the Defiants phasers are useless! If the Defiant stays at Impulse,
it gets even easier. A torpedo travelling at warp will hit a ship at impulse
almost every time. Put simply, the ship could not travel fast enough to
generate a miss from a torpedo travelling at over 2000 times the speed of
light!
>That's a good analogy. Defiant also has another advantage -- the cloak.
>Defiant can escape from a Sovereign. If it jumps to warp first and then
>cloaks. At sublight speeds...Defiant has a decisive advantge.
>
The Defiant has a cloak, the Defiant class does not! Therefore it should not
be counted in a debate between the classes.
Jer
Look at it this way. Defiant Class was built to take on the Borg. They have
been the most powerful weapon against The Dominion. The Sovereign Class is
strong, but there has only been one appearance of that class and it was against
a Borg Ship that was pretty much toast AND happenned to be captained by an
ex-Borg who knew where to fire.
Warp speeds mean nothing when it comes to which ship could win in a battle. The
forward pulse lasers on a Defiant Class are supposedly more powerful than a
sustained beam from the other starships.
In a pitched battle my ticket is on a Defiant vessel. Those bad boys(with the
right Captain and crew) could dance around a Sovereign Class singing camp fire
songs and still win. The Sovereign Class in a sense is as vulnerable to every
shot just like the Galaxy Class as shown in the Battle to retake Deep Space 9.
They pack one hell of a punch but people even Captain's have been known to
assume bigger mean better.
But then if we're lucky we'll get to see which will win in the new Star Trek
movie. Ha!
MARC (aka BRY) wrote:
> In article <355B880C...@hotmail.com>,
> Chad Millar <c_mi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >The Defiant survived repeated hits from this weapon *without* its
> >shields. It lasted 3 *hours* against this - quite an achievement. It is
> >now safe to assume that Soverign class ships do not have ablative
> >armour, since not even the newly built Defiant class ships do.
>
> Geez...HERE WE GO AGAIN!! Defiant survived repeated hits from the
> borg tractor beam. If you'll notice, the tractor beam was concentrate on
> the one portion of the hull where the ARMOR WAS DAMAGED!!! So in fact,
> Defiant had no shields AND no armor (at least in that one spot).
> We don't know for sure the length of time Defiant was in the fight.
> We do know that it was in the initial encounter and then again at Sector
> 001.
> It is NOT safe to assume tjat Sovereign doesn't have the armor.
> Where did you get the info that Defiant class ship DON'T have armor? Of
> course it does!!! Otherwise, Valiant would have been toast once their
> shields had collapsed!!!!!
>
> >Put it this way, I could not see a Soveriegn surviving what Defiant
> >survived. I'd also rather be in a Defiant if I were faced by say 5
> >Jem'Hadar ships.
>
> Of course not!! There's no way the Soveerign could maneuver that
> quickly, so there's no way the sovereign class ship could dodge the
> multiple emitters/launchers of the battleship!!!
> I would rather be on the Defiant or any Definat class ship against
> practically anything in the quadrant!!
>
> >It's also a sitting duck. Soverign has to take every hit that is throw
> >at it, while Defiant's can evade much of the fire directed at them.
>
> Yup!!
>
> >> The Defiant class is really pretty slow compared to most modern starfleet
> >> designs.
> >In warp speed, yes - Defiant's maximum warp was warp 8 last time I
> >heard.
>
> 8, maybe 9. But certainly no match for Intrepid class or even GCS.
>
> >There is a difference in higher warp speeds an being able to dance
> >around other ships. The advantage of the Soverign's warp speed is that
> >the Defiant could not escape from a Soverign, nor could it chase one
> >down if a Soverign ran from it. When brought down to impulse, the
> >Defiant has a heavy advantage. Its small size, high manouverability and
> >high impulse speed would give it the edge. Just look at Defiant's battle
> >with the Negh'var in "Shattered Mirror". The Negh'var had heavier
> >weapons and probably a better warp speed, yet the Defiant took it apart.
>
> Good analogy. Defiant also has another advantage -- the cloak.
> Defiant can escape from a Sovereign. If it jumps to warp first and then
> cloaks. At sublight speeds...Defiant has a decisive advantge.
>
TGA
Both ships would be better than the other in certain situations. The
Sovereign is a much larger ship, and thus a bigger target, but it does
have stronger shields, etc. because it is bigger. The Defiant is very
small and maneuverable, and does have ablative armo(u)r, butbeing a
smaller ship it has weaker shields and so on.
--
Apple Computer would like to apologize for toasting the Pentium II in
public. But the fact remains - The chip inside every new PowerMacintosh
G3 is up to twice as fast.
Apple. Think different.
Paul Cassidy
Jer wrote in message <3568D283...@ix.netcom.com>...
>Look at it this way. Defiant Class was built to take on the Borg. They
have
>been the most powerful weapon against The Dominion. The Sovereign Class is
>strong, but there has only been one appearance of that class and it was
against
>a Borg Ship that was pretty much toast AND happenned to be captained by an
>ex-Borg who knew where to fire.
>
>Warp speeds mean nothing when it comes to which ship could win in a battle.
The
>forward pulse lasers on a Defiant Class are supposedly more powerful than a
>sustained beam from the other starships.
>
Sigh! How many times does this have to be said. Warp speeds would mean
everything. A phaser is useless against a ship travelling at warp. It
doesn't matter if a pulse phaser is more powerful than a normal phaser.
Also, if the supplemental information is correct, the Sovereign has type XII
phasers, which are substantially more powerful than the type X on the D.
Chad Millar
Paul Cassidy wrote:
>
> Jer wrote in message <3568D283...@ix.netcom.com>...
> >Look at it this way. Defiant Class was built to take on the Borg. They
> have
> >been the most powerful weapon against The Dominion. The Sovereign Class is
> >strong, but there has only been one appearance of that class and it was
> against
> >a Borg Ship that was pretty much toast AND happenned to be captained by an
> >ex-Borg who knew where to fire.
> >
> >Warp speeds mean nothing when it comes to which ship could win in a battle.
> The
> >forward pulse lasers on a Defiant Class are supposedly more powerful than a
> >sustained beam from the other starships.
> >
>
> Sigh! How many times does this have to be said. Warp speeds would mean
> everything. A phaser is useless against a ship travelling at warp. It
> doesn't matter if a pulse phaser is more powerful than a normal phaser.
But the vast majority of battle are *not* fought at warp!
> Also, if the supplemental information is correct, the Sovereign has type XII
> phasers, which are substantially more powerful than the type X on the D.
First Contact is the only canon source of information on the E-E, and it
wasn't mentioned there.
Chad Millar
Mike Dicenso wrote:
>
> On Fri, 22 May 1998, Chad Millar wrote:
>
> >
> > have ablative armour.
>
> I rewatched the episode last night, and it was NOT mentioned at any point
> in the episode wether or not they had ablative armor.
Thanks, I haven't seen either of these episodes, so I was just relying
on posts to this NG. Thanks for checking on it.
> Also it may interest you to know that the Defiant class is not the only
> SF vessels equipped with ablative armour. The Prometheus from VGR's
> "Message In A Bottle" was stated to be equipped with ablative armor as well.
But its only a prototype, not an established class yet.
Timo S Saloniemi
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980522224200.28281C-100000@seds> Mike Dicenso <mdic...@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU> writes:
>On Fri, 22 May 1998, Chad Millar wrote:
>> No, the ablative armour was added to the Defiant after it was shot up in
>> "The Search". It wasn't officially added either, sinc Captain Bentine of
>> the USS Lokota said that Starfleet Intelligence didn't know about the
>> armour.
>I believe the first mention of ablative armor was in the episodes "Past
>Tense part I & II", the episodes where Sisko, Dax, and Dr. Bashir are
>accidently sent back in time due to a transporter accident. Just about
>eight episodes down the road from "The Search pts. I & II".
Correct. I just mistakenly posted that "Way of the Warrior" was the
first appearance of the armor. But "Past Tense" does indeed mention
it... are there other 3rd season eps where the words "ablative armor"
are used?
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
In article <6k4kv3$ftd$1...@irk.zetnet.co.uk> "Colin Polonowski" <polon...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>>No, the ablative armour was added to the Defiant after it was shot up in
>>"The Search". It wasn't officially added either, sinc Captain Bentine of
>>the USS Lokota said that Starfleet Intelligence didn't know about the
>>armour.
>
>guess work...
>
>The Defiant was designed with Ablative Armour - Sisko, when he was at Utopia
>Planitia, helped design it to fight the Borg and ablative armour was part of
>the design.
From a guy who really watches DS9 (up to season five anyway - beyond that,
I have large gaps I try to patch here in the newsgrp):
Ablative armor was NOT mentioned as an original design feature on the
ship. It was NEVER referred to as an anti-Borg technology. Otherwise,
you are quite correct :)
The first poster was correct about Capt. Benteen being ignorant about
the ablative armor on the Defiant. But she did know what the stuff was,
once its presence on the ship was revealed to her. Presumably other
starships have thin layers of it as a meteoroid shield, though not in
quantities that would be useful in battle (re: Tech Manual).
The first canonical mention of ablative armor comes from "Way of the
Warrior". It's not made clear if it was added immediately before that
episode. Perhaps it really was there from the beginning. But there is
absolutely no canonical support for it being there before "WotW".
Timo Saloniemi
Chad Millar
When it is refered to, Dax says "The Defiant's new armour". I'd assume
from that statement that it hasn't been there since its construction.
Paul Cassidy
Chad Millar wrote in message <356A356E...@hotmail.com>...
>Paul Cassidy wrote:
>>
>> Jer wrote in message <3568D283...@ix.netcom.com>...
>> >Look at it this way. Defiant Class was built to take on the Borg. They
>> have
>> >been the most powerful weapon against The Dominion. The Sovereign Class
is
>> >strong, but there has only been one appearance of that class and it was
>> against
>> >a Borg Ship that was pretty much toast AND happenned to be captained by
an
>> >ex-Borg who knew where to fire.
>> >
>> >Warp speeds mean nothing when it comes to which ship could win in a
battle.
>> The
>> >forward pulse lasers on a Defiant Class are supposedly more powerful
than a
>> >sustained beam from the other starships.
>> >
>>
>> Sigh! How many times does this have to be said. Warp speeds would mean
>> everything. A phaser is useless against a ship travelling at warp. It
>> doesn't matter if a pulse phaser is more powerful than a normal phaser.
>
>But the vast majority of battle are *not* fought at warp!
That does not mean that they CANNOT be fought at warp.
It's much easier for the TV directors to show a battle at impulse (special
effects are cheaper!)
That aside, if you are the captain of a ship that has all the advantages at
warp speed, surely you would be smart enough to stay at warp.
Also, look at TOS episode "Elaan of Troyius", to see how much of a
disadvatage a ship at impulse has when fighting a ship at warp!
If the battle is fought in open space, the best the Defiant can hope for is
a draw. If it cannot catch the Sovereign, it can't destroy it.
ONLY if the battle is fought close to a planetary body, could the Defiant
hope for a win.
Like modern day missile or torpedo boats, a defiant class ship is at its
best defending a planet or starbase. In open space, it is at a huge
disadvantage.
Mike Dicenso
On 26 May 1998, Timo S Saloniemi wrote:
> Correct. I just mistakenly posted that "Way of the Warrior" was the
> first appearance of the armor. But "Past Tense" does indeed mention
> it... are there other 3rd season eps where the words "ablative armor"
> are used?
None that I know of. The episode "Defiant", comes before "Past Tense", and
I know there is no mention of it for sure in "The Die is Cast", which
comes after. AFAIK the next reference to it comes in "The Way of the
Warrior". The third reference AFAIK after TWotW is "Paradise Lost".
Can anyone fill this in?
-Mike
Andy Pan
it's an awfully unfair comparison because the class difference... Defiant
class is classified as an Armed Escort Ship... while the Soverign Class is
suppose to be a BIG Mother F-ing Ship.... One way I could see Defiant
winning was if it snuck up on the Sovereign class with the cloaking device
and unleash all it's firepower at once...
Chad Millar
Andy Pan wrote:
>
> it's an awfully unfair comparison because the class difference... Defiant
> class is classified as an Armed Escort Ship...
Its a warship, not an escort. The escort classification is misleading.
Graham Brack
"Paul Cassidy" <cas...@tinet.ie> wrote:
>ONLY if the battle is fought close to a planetary body, could the Defiant
>hope for a win.
>
>Like modern day missile or torpedo boats, a defiant class ship is at its
>best defending a planet or starbase. In open space, it is at a huge
>disadvantage.
>
>
Note however that it is hard to make a judgement. Because the Defiant
is so maneuverable it would be hard to hit at the best of times. If it
WAS the Defiant the Sovereign would be toast due to it's cloaking
device. Also remember that the Defiant was built as a warship but the
Sovereign-class was built as a science-ship. The Defiant, to travel
faster is small and has a thinner hull compared to the Sovereign. Take
into account if you will the fact that it's a lot harder to hit a ship
which is smaller. Take all of these factors into account and I think
that it would. Also I would like to note that warp speed means that it
is harder to shoot at something because you can't see it clearly but
it is still possible to do.
Andrew Brack.