Burn in hell Ira Behr, burn in hell!
Berserker!
finale. While drunk on Pabst. Good God DS9 could have been such a great
show but NOOOO!!!! they had to have Behr, who hasn't proven himself with
anything, write all the big event episodes with Beimler. Good God, they
almost screwed up Far Beyond the Stars, they added a horrible deus ex
machina to Sacrifice of Angels when they didn't need to, they had that
pointless finale last season that was reset two episodes later, face it,
these two guys are hacks and I'm more than a little mad to see the show
wrecked by them while they get checks for it!
Jesus H Christ in a bucket of chicken, why oh why did Fields and Wolfe leave
this show? They could have crafted a finale that was exciting, dramatic,
didn't have the bizarre "Oops, there is a problem on Bajor" twist, didn't
have this episode's general inanity, might have even had a sense of combat
tactics, didn't have the stupid ending to a major character that I won't
spoil, etc, etc. What were they thinking? Were they rolling weed with the
paper they were suppose to be writing the episode with? Now they'll never
be a DS9 movie, not that the chances were strong anyway, because of this
sack of shit episode!
And reused footage! Sheesh! I was laughing out loud! I could understand
if the money saved went to something, but it obviously didn't go to the
finale!
----> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That, and that
shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I seriously if
they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
PeterTHX
Berserker! <donp...@surfsouth.com> wrote in message
news:37536...@news2.surfsouth.com...
> Jesus H Christ in a bucket of chicken,
???
LOL!
>
> And reused footage! Sheesh! I was laughing out loud! I could understand
> if the money saved went to something, but it obviously didn't go to the
> finale!
>
Yeah. I HATE reused opticals. Especially since in the whole finale arc there
wasn't an FX heavy show. Even the battle in "The Changing Face of Evil" had
only a few shots in it. Paramount is sure cheap when it comes to Trek FX.
I'm still pissed they didn't use ILM for "Insurrection". That film's FX was
no better than what we get on TV (good, but not GREAT and INNOVATIVE like
"First Contact" or "Generations" ILM FX were)
Tiberius
start writing books and send them to Pocket Books and TO HELL WITH
PARAMOUNT!!!!!!! All I got to say if we want good stuff we should read it and
boycott TREK on TV until Berman screws his head on.
Just my thoughts...................Tiberius
David B.
> Geez I could have written that finale. Geez I could have written a better
> finale. While drunk on Pabst. Good God DS9 could have been such a great
> show but NOOOO!!!! they had to have Behr, who hasn't proven himself with
> anything, write all the big event episodes with Beimler. Good God, they
> almost screwed up Far Beyond the Stars, they added a horrible deus ex
> machina to Sacrifice of Angels when they didn't need to, they had that
> pointless finale last season that was reset two episodes later, face it,
> these two guys are hacks and I'm more than a little mad to see the show
> wrecked by them while they get checks for it!
>
> Jesus H Christ in a bucket of chicken, why oh why did Fields and Wolfe leave
> this show? They could have crafted a finale that was exciting, dramatic,
> didn't have the bizarre "Oops, there is a problem on Bajor" twist, didn't
> have this episode's general inanity, might have even had a sense of combat
> tactics, didn't have the stupid ending to a major character that I won't
> spoil, etc, etc. What were they thinking? Were they rolling weed with the
> paper they were suppose to be writing the episode with? Now they'll never
> be a DS9 movie, not that the chances were strong anyway, because of this
> sack of shit episode!
>
> And reused footage! Sheesh! I was laughing out loud! I could understand
> if the money saved went to something, but it obviously didn't go to the
> finale!
>
> ----> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That, and that
> shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I seriously if
> they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
Jeez...let's string up Behr and co. I mean they are worse then Stalin and
Hitler put
together. It's a tv show not the ethnic cleansing...
Profeswho9
>shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I seriously if
>they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
If they had monkeys typing the scripts maybe they would make sense!!
If Paramount had any brains they would try to hire sci-fi writers like
classic trek did with D.C. Fontana and Harrlan Ellison(spelling?) the writer of
city on the edge of forever. At least you would have someone writing who was
at least interested in sci-fi, not the fools they have now who used to write
for" Simon & Simon" and other worthless T.V. shows
ProfessorWho?
Ronlad21
> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That, and that
>shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I seriously if
>they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
Well that is another thing that B5 and DS9 has in common. Their last seasons
were shit and their series finale were shit as well. Although; I liked more DS9
season seven than B5 year five. But all in all; DS9 and B5 were two great shows
that in their last seasons were not so great.
NthDoctor (Tony Smith)
Berserker! <donp...@surfsouth.com> wrote in article
<37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
: Geez I could have written that finale. Geez I could have written a
better
: finale. While drunk on Pabst.
Snip.....
Given the content of the rest of your post.....I would have to say that
this is highly unlikely.
Oh and by the way........TAKE A PROZAC and calm down.
--
NthDoctor
nta...@airmail.net
Suffer359
> show but NOOOO!!!! they had to have Behr, who hasn't proven himself with
> anything, write all the big event episodes with Beimler. Good God, they
> almost screwed up Far Beyond the Stars, they added a horrible deus ex
> machina to Sacrifice of Angels when they didn't need to, they had that
> pointless finale last season that was reset two episodes later, face it,
> these two guys are hacks and I'm more than a little mad to see the show
> wrecked by them while they get checks for it!
Just wait for Voyagers Sign-off. I'm really looking forward to what they
come up with........................................NOT!!
Suffer359
ShaunNavis
>classic trek did with D.C. Fontana and Harrlan Ellison(spelling?) the writer
>of
>city on the edge of forever.
DS9's been every bit as good as "City on the Edge" numerous times. Emissary,
Duet, Past Tense, The Visitor, Children of Time, Far Beyond the Stars, In the
Pale Moonlight and others, but this finale just wasn't up to that level.
Besides, Ellison will never write for Trek again. Not after his anger at how
"City" was changed. Forget the fact that Roddenberry's ending was better than
what Eliison wanted (It would have ruined Kirk as a character); he won't have
anything to do with Trek again.
Shaun
Suffer359
ShaunNavis
>finale. While drunk on Pabst.
Well, I was disappointed too, but Ira's done a lot of good things in the time
he served on the show. I just think Moore or perhaps Peter Allan Fields
should have been given this last episode. Hell, Piller might have done a
better job.
>Good God, they
>almost screwed up Far Beyond the Stars,
How? That episode was brilliant!
>they added a horrible deus ex
>machina to Sacrifice of Angels when they didn't need to,
Actually, I liked that ending. Yes, deus ex machina,et al, but Sisko faced
impossible odds and was planning to defend the Federation at the cost of his
own life. The Prophets had a bigger plan and couldn't let it happen.
Interestingly enough, I had a hunch the series would end much the way it did
when the Prophets told Sisko he would "not rest on Bajor." That was no
surprise, but I just didn't like how this whole episode played out. CLIPS?
F*CKING CLIPS!?!? What the hell were they thinking? The few cool things that
happened were really rushed, and a lot of opportunities were missed.
>they had that
>pointless finale last season that was reset two episodes later
You've lost me here. What was reset? I didn't like the season six finale
either, but mostly because of Jadzia's lame death and how stupid it was to have
her on DS9 and Kira on the Defiant.
>didn't have the stupid ending to a major character that I won't
>spoil, etc, etc
The ending you speak of was telegraphed way back in "Sacrifice of Angels." I
thought it was interesting, but predictable and it leaves me disappointed
knowing that charcter will likely not show up in future films. I also hated
how he wasn't there for the LAST 20 MINUTES OF THE SHOW!!
>Now they'll never
>be a DS9 movie,
Berman's hinted that at least some of the characters will return eventually,
but it won't be the same.
> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That, and that
>shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I seriously if
>they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
The DS9 finale was a better story than Phantom Menace (if not as spectacular),
but both were extreme disappointements. Never got into B5, but I understand
your frustrations.
Shaun
Fire3Sky
> show but NOOOO!!!! they had to have Behr, who hasn't proven himself with
> anything, write all the big event episodes with Beimler. Good God, they
> almost screwed up Far Beyond the Stars, they added a horrible deus ex
> machina to Sacrifice of Angels when they didn't need to, they had that
> pointless finale last season that was reset two episodes later, face it,
> these two guys are hacks and I'm more than a little mad to see the show
> wrecked by them while they get checks for it!
>>>>>>>
I have to agree that Behr and Beimler havn't exactly done a stellar job. With
most of TPTB, I can think of some really good eps that they wrote, but with
Behr, I can't think of any offhand.
Fire3Sky
HBeachBabe
proxy.airnews.net>, nta...@airmail.net says...> : Geez I could have written that finale. Geez I could have written a
> better
> : finale. While drunk on Pabst.
>
>
> Given the content of the rest of your post.....I would have to say that
> this is highly unlikely.
>
Here! Here! why is it every yutz with a keyboard claims they could write
a perfect script and then fails to even compose a coherent newsgroup
posting?
If all you people who claim you can write, did, and got an agent, and
sent in your scripts and got them sold, then maybe you could make such
claims. Until then, shut up about your writing ability.
> Oh and by the way........TAKE A PROZAC and calm down.
>
Agreed. Nearly ever review I have read of the finale doesn't criticize
the story as it is, but merely rips it to shreds for what it isn't: "I
wanted them to do this" and "that character should have done that" I
have seen posts claiming that it was "too" finale, signaling the absolute
end of the Trek franchise while others say it wasn't finale enough,
leaving to much still left to be explored. If I were a Trek PTB, I'd say
to hell with y'all, if you just want Trek to be what you want, go write
fan-fic. This is a TV show.
>
Désirée- who hasn't seen the finale yet, but knows from all the things
written here that I will probably like it
heinlein
Please elaborate.<
berse...@hotmail.com
adrgo...@cnmnetwork.spam.com wrote:
> In article
<A7D81AA1B56F0CC9.AD3D992DEF9ADEF6.3277E618AC00700A@library-
> proxy.airnews.net>, nta...@airmail.net says...
> >
> >
> > Berserker! <donp...@surfsouth.com> wrote in article
> > <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
> > : Geez I could have written that finale. Geez I could have written
a
> > better
> > : finale. While drunk on Pabst.
> >
> > Snip.....
> >
> > Given the content of the rest of your post.....I would have to say
that
> > this is highly unlikely.
> >
>
> Here! Here! why is it every yutz with a keyboard claims they could
write
> a perfect script and then fails to even compose a coherent newsgroup
> posting?
How was my post not coherant? Was it somehow unclear in its meaning?
Dumbass.
>
> If all you people who claim you can write, did, and got an agent, and
> sent in your scripts and got them sold, then maybe you could make
such
> claims. Until then, shut up about your writing ability.
The fact I'm not a writer with an agent who's going to throw everything
away in the hopes of lucking up like Behr did doesn't mean I can't
point out what makes a bad episode a bad episode. You're joining a
long line of dumbasses who justify Behr's writing simply because... he
is writing.
> > Oh and by the way........TAKE A PROZAC and calm down.
> >
> Agreed. Nearly ever review I have read of the finale doesn't
criticize
> the story as it is, but merely rips it to shreds for what it isn't:
"I
> wanted them to do this" and "that character should have done that" I
> have seen posts claiming that it was "too" finale, signaling the
absolute
> end of the Trek franchise while others say it wasn't finale enough,
> leaving to much still left to be explored. If I were a Trek PTB, I'd
say
> to hell with y'all, if you just want Trek to be what you want, go
write
> fan-fic. This is a TV show.
Ok, dumbass, do you want to know what's wrong? A herky-jerky end to
the war, a cheesy pagh wraith plot that back in Strange Bedfellows
actually had promise, the dumb way Sisko's destiny turned out to be
knocking a book into a pit, the cheat of letting Sisko die, but live,
the utter failure of the writers to be even remotely conscious of how
B5 ended, the stoopid space battle that just sorta happened, Damar's
waste of a demise, I could go on. Yeah, prove these are inavlid
criticisms.
> >
> Désirée- who hasn't seen the finale yet, but knows from all the
things
> written here that I will probably like it
Well then you're a little fangirl aren't you?
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
berse...@hotmail.com
>
>
> Berserker! <donp...@surfsouth.com> wrote in article
> <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
> : Geez I could have written that finale. Geez I could have written a
> better
> : finale. While drunk on Pabst.
>
> Snip.....
>
> Given the content of the rest of your post.....I would have to say
that
> this is highly unlikely.
>
>
Dream on, fanboy.
berse...@hotmail.com
shaun...@aol.com (ShaunNavis) wrote:
> >Geez I could have written that finale. Geez I could have written a
better
> >finale. While drunk on Pabst.
>
the time
> he served on the show. I just think Moore or perhaps Peter Allan
Fields
> should have been given this last episode. Hell, Piller might have
done a
> better job.
There is a reason Moore is going to Voyager and Behr isn't. Shoot,
judging by the story credits it looks like half the final arc ideas
were Fields'!
>
> >Good God, they
> >almost screwed up Far Beyond the Stars,
>
> How? That episode was brilliant!
Brilliant, but the pointless "the Prophets are trying to encourage
Sisko" bit was a distraction. Why would the Prophets give that vision?
And it got too cheeky with the "is it is real?" bit. Surprise, there
was no Benny in the final. A year old plotline and they can't even
keep it straight.
>
> >they added a horrible deus ex
> >machina to Sacrifice of Angels when they didn't need to,
>
> Actually, I liked that ending. Yes, deus ex machina,et al, but Sisko
faced
> impossible odds and was planning to defend the Federation at the cost
of his
> own life. The Prophets had a bigger plan and couldn't let it happen.
> Interestingly enough, I had a hunch the series would end much the way
it did
> when the Prophets told Sisko he would "not rest on Bajor."
I like the *idea* in Sacrifice. It just came as a cheat. These people
who uphold Behr as this great writer forget that in writing they teach
you not to resort to such stunts. A more sensible move would have been
to have Sisko plot with the Kai (this is before behr made her EVIL
again) to use an orb to get the attention of the Prophets and then have
him plead. That way, it looks like he's actually trying.
>That was no
> surprise, but I just didn't like how this whole episode played out.
CLIPS?
> F*CKING CLIPS!?!? What the hell were they thinking? The few cool
things that
> happened were really rushed, and a lot of opportunities were missed.
Yes, those clips were pathetic. This isn't Touched by an Angel or some
touchy feely shit.
>
> >they had that
> >pointless finale last season that was reset two episodes later
>
> You've lost me here. What was reset? I didn't like the season six
finale
> either, but mostly because of Jadzia's lame death and how stupid it
was to have
> her on DS9 and Kira on the Defiant.
Two episodes later the wormhole is reopened and everything's good as
new. The whole "oh god the wormhole has close" bit was completely
forgotten.
>
> >didn't have the stupid ending to a major character that I won't
> >spoil, etc, etc
>
> The ending you speak of was telegraphed way back in "Sacrifice of
Angels." I
> thought it was interesting, but predictable and it leaves me
disappointed
> knowing that charcter will likely not show up in future films. I
also hated
> how he wasn't there for the LAST 20 MINUTES OF THE SHOW!!
Yes, big mistake.
>
> >Now they'll never
> >be a DS9 movie,
>
> Berman's hinted that at least some of the characters will return
eventually,
> but it won't be the same.
Nope. It wouldn't be worth it nless it had Garak.
>
> > I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That, and that
> >shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I
seriously if
> >they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
>
> The DS9 finale was a better story than Phantom Menace (if not as
spectacular),
> but both were extreme disappointements. Never got into B5, but I
understand
> your frustrations.
These writers are all on crack.
>
> Shaun
berse...@hotmail.com
shaun...@aol.com (ShaunNavis) wrote:
> >If Paramount had any brains they would try to hire sci-fi writers
like
> >classic trek did with D.C. Fontana and Harrlan Ellison(spelling?)
the writer
> >of
> >city on the edge of forever.
>
> DS9's been every bit as good as "City on the Edge" numerous times.
Emissary,
> Duet, Past Tense, The Visitor, Children of Time, Far Beyond the
Stars, In the
> Pale Moonlight and others, but this finale just wasn't up to that
level.
Yes, let's not forget that. Which makes the final episode all the more
frustrating, as they've shown they can be brilliant. In Strange
Bedfellows, the characterization of the Kai was nothing short of
genius. Here, she and Dukat are cartoon baddies, since Behr sees the
world as a big cartoon.
>
> Besides, Ellison will never write for Trek again. Not after his
anger at how
> "City" was changed. Forget the fact that Roddenberry's ending was
better than
> what Eliison wanted (It would have ruined Kirk as a character); he
won't have
> anything to do with Trek again.
Ellison is overrated. If you thought TMP was bad, Ellison's idea for
the first film was to have lizard people try to go back in time and
have the lizards win out in human evolution. In other words, sort of
like Men in Black with the bugs. Ellison didn't do jack for B5 and
he's been out of gas for some time.
Merih Hennig
Fire3Sky wrote in message <19990602021335...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
Did I miss something? What happened to Braga and Moore?
Anyways, I thought DS9's finale was way better than TNG's finale. At least
with DS9, we got to see all the characters get equal screen time, unlike
Picard having the entire episode to himself in TNG's finale.
Merih Hennig
ShaunNavis
> Please elaborate.<
Ellison's ending had Kirk rushing out to save Edith and Spock had to stop him.
Ellison's contention was that it was more poignant that Kirk would throw away
the future and everything he ever knew for her love. I say it would have
ruined Kirk's character to know that he would throw the fate of humanity away
and forget his duty like that.
As it was, the ending we all know was chilling and very tragic. Had Ellison
had his way, I would have never been able to take Kirk seriously ever again.
There wer other changes, but that's the biggest one.
Shaun
NthDoctor (Tony Smith)
berse...@hotmail.com wrote in article <7j3sqh$q5a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
: In article <A7D81AA1B56F0CC9.AD3D992DEF9ADEF6.3277E618AC00700A@library-
: proxy.airnews.net>,
: Dream on, fanboy.
Boy I NEVER could have come up with such a WITTY retort as that one. I am
humbled at the feet of greatness.
Note to Berserker: this is SARCASM :-)
BTW I was really harping on your comments to "What You Leave Behind", just
the poor and somewhat sophmorish style in which you did so.
Point #2: Is it possible for you to construct a sentence without the word
"dumbass" in it? You might also want to take a shot at brushing up on your
grammar, spelling, punctuation and a vocabulary.
--
NthDoctor
nta...@airmail.net
who's writing isn't "technically perfect" either-but it's still better than
berserker's.
HBeachBabe
> <A7D81AA1B56F0CC9.AD3D992DEF9ADEF6.3277E618AC00700A@library-
> > proxy.airnews.net>, nta...@airmail.net says...
> > >
> > >
> > > Berserker! <donp...@surfsouth.com> wrote in article
> > > <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
> a
> > > better
> > > : finale. While drunk on Pabst.
> > >
> > >
> > > Given the content of the rest of your post.....I would have to say
> that
> > > this is highly unlikely.
> > >
> >
> write
> > a perfect script and then fails to even compose a coherent newsgroup
> > posting?
>
> How was my post not coherant? Was it somehow unclear in its meaning?
> Dumbass.
>
> >
> > If all you people who claim you can write, did, and got an agent, and
> > sent in your scripts and got them sold, then maybe you could make
> such
> > claims. Until then, shut up about your writing ability.
>
> The fact I'm not a writer with an agent who's going to throw everything
> away in the hopes of lucking up like Behr did doesn't mean I can't
> point out what makes a bad episode a bad episode. You're joining a
> long line of dumbasses who justify Behr's writing simply because... he
> is writing.
Wasn't justifying his writing simply because he is writing, I was
complaining because you obviously aren't. Of you can criticize. I'm,
still waiting for some valid criticism. However, also realize that
criticizing and claiming that you could do better are two entirely
different things. You can criticize all you want, but until I see a
script of yours that *is* better than what gets on the air, I don't want
to hear about your perceptions of your writing ability.
>
>
> > > Oh and by the way........TAKE A PROZAC and calm down.
> > >
> > Agreed. Nearly ever review I have read of the finale doesn't
> criticize
> > the story as it is, but merely rips it to shreds for what it isn't:
> "I
> > wanted them to do this" and "that character should have done that" I
> > have seen posts claiming that it was "too" finale, signaling the
> absolute
> > end of the Trek franchise while others say it wasn't finale enough,
> > leaving to much still left to be explored. If I were a Trek PTB, I'd
> say
> > to hell with y'all, if you just want Trek to be what you want, go
> write
> > fan-fic. This is a TV show.
>
> Ok, dumbass, do you want to know what's wrong? A herky-jerky end to
> the war,
Meaning?
> a cheesy pagh wraith plot that back in Strange Bedfellows
> actually had promise,
and it lost it's promise how? In what way?
> the dumb way Sisko's destiny turned out to be
> knocking a book into a pit,
Yes, but *why* is it dumb?
> the cheat of letting Sisko die, but live,
and this is bad because?
> the utter failure of the writers to be even remotely conscious of how
> B5 ended,
I'm utterly unconscious of how B5 ended too. What's this have to do with
anything?
> the stoopid space battle that just sorta happened,
Uh, there's a war going on. What kind of space battle wouldn't have been
stupid?
> Damar's
> waste of a demise,
From what I heard, it sounds pretty purposeful.
> I could go on. Yeah, prove these are inavlid
> criticisms.
Well, if you actual gave a criticism I could respond. As it is, all you
did was list plot points and say "see? these suck." But you never say
*why* they suck. That's not criticism, that bitching because they didn't
do what *you* wanted them to.
>
> > >
> > Désirée- who hasn't seen the finale yet, but knows from all the
> things
> > written here that I will probably like it
>
> Well then you're a little fangirl aren't you?
No, I just haven't heard anything of a valid criticism yet.
> >
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
>
Désirée- recommending that you take Deja News' tag line to heart,
"Dumbass"
George Avalos
Berserker! wrote in message <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
>Now they'll never
>be a DS9 movie, not that the chances were strong anyway, because of this
>sack of shit episode!
Wake up and smell the coffee. There was never a chance of a movie because of
the inherent dullness, lousy acting, poor scripts and canyon-like plotholes
that have dogged DS9 since its first season.
>----> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That, and that
>shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I seriously if
>they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
Hee, hee, hee! Looks like even the fanboys like Beserker have had the scales
lifted from their eyes. Been warning you for years that the Trek franchise
peaked at the moment the credits came up in Best of Both Worlds--Part 2. And
that it's been downhill ever since. DS9's last season fell into a pit.
Voyager will complete the descent into the abyss.
Even re-runs of TNG are preferable to watching the current Trek dreck that's
on TV. And the DS9 finale proves it.
Anyway, glad you woke up. Too bad it was too late.
--George
Ouroboros
ShaunNavis <shaun...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990602214030...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> > I haven't heard any of this. What was Ellison's proposed ending?<
> > Please elaborate.<
>
> Ellison's ending had Kirk rushing out to save Edith and Spock had to stop
him.
> Ellison's contention was that it was more poignant that Kirk would throw
away
> the future and everything he ever knew for her love. I say it would have
> ruined Kirk's character to know that he would throw the fate of humanity
away
> and forget his duty like that.
>
Agreed. It was more poignant that he was welling to give up someone that he
loved. Someone right in front of his eyes that he had to watch die.
Ellison's ending would have made Kirk selfish.
Victor
George Avalos
Ronlad21 wrote in message <19990604224745...@ng-fl1.aol.com>...
>You said it brother. Tell him like it is.
You're welcome to your self-delusion. But even the fanboys are admitting
that this finale stunk up the holosuite. For months, people have been
saying, oh don't worry, they're building up to a great finale. Yeah, the
pacing is slow and dull -- as usual -- but they're going to wrap it all up
in an incredible finish.
And then this silly little show went out with a whimper, not a bang. No
surprise.
--George
George Avalos
ShaunNavis wrote in message
<19990604223323...@ng-fk1.aol.com>...
>>Wake up and smell the coffee. There was never a chance of a movie because
of
>>the inherent dullness, lousy acting, poor scripts and canyon-like
plotholes
>>that have dogged DS9 since its first season.
>
poll
>in TV Guide two years, and that same magazine just declared the show the
best
>acted and written of the four Treks. You aren't confusing this show with
VOY,
>ar you? Poor acting? So that's why Colm Meaney and Avery Brooks keep
getting
>film work, and acclaimd film work at that. Poor scripting? That's why
Moore's
>going over to VOY in an attmept to save that show, huh?
>
>George, you've been bashing the show here for years. Why do you keep
watching
>something you clearly despise and then come here to talk about it?
What a dull, overused, worn-out question. Kind of like the show.
BTW,
>Berman's already said at least some of the characters will return in one
form
>or another. If not full DS9 films, then in TNG/DS9 combos, TV movies, or
>something. DS9's done just fine and will live on.
In reruns and in your memory, but no more than that.
Berman is *hoping* that happens. Or do you blindly swallow every bit of
regurgitated pap he feeds you? Oh, that's right, you must. Since you've been
watching the show faithfully.
DS9It will, if there's a market for it. DS9 had better hurry up, because I
suspect STNG isn't quite done yet with movies.
But DS9's ratings have eroded every year. Check the recent TV guide feature,
if you don't believe me. So that suggests there's not much of a market for
it. But it could happen. Unlikely, though.
--George
ShaunNavis
>the inherent dullness, lousy acting, poor scripts and canyon-like plotholes
>that have dogged DS9 since its first season.
Oh, that's why The Visitor was named the best Trek episode ever in a fan poll
in TV Guide two years, and that same magazine just declared the show the best
acted and written of the four Treks. You aren't confusing this show with VOY,
ar you? Poor acting? So that's why Colm Meaney and Avery Brooks keep getting
film work, and acclaimd film work at that. Poor scripting? That's why Moore's
going over to VOY in an attmept to save that show, huh?
George, you've been bashing the show here for years. Why do you keep watching
something you clearly despise and then come here to talk about it? BTW,
Berman's already said at least some of the characters will return in one form
or another. If not full DS9 films, then in TNG/DS9 combos, TV movies, or
something. DS9's done just fine and will live on.
Shaun
ShaunNavis
Although DS9 is my favorite show, TNG's finale was a million times better.
Crisper writing, true surprises (Even if it was only a "possible" future), and
not as many plotholes. It also gave more closure in the sense that it came
full circle from the first episode. DS9's story wasted too much time on
getting sentimental (Never a DS9 trait, so why start now?), and missing obvious
story opportunities (Ross' knowledge of Section 31 for example. Wouldn't it
have been cool to learn *he* was involved in Odo's illness?).
>At least
>with DS9, we got to see all the characters get equal screen time, unlike
>Picard having the entire episode to himself in TNG's finale.
But Stewart was a tour de force in AGT! He's the star, so it seemed right.
DS9's more an ensemble show, but Brooks *is* the star, and considering how
little we saw of him the past few weeks I figured he'd be front and center in
the finale. I was, sadly, wrong.
I thought Sisko's "trial" would be much bigger part of the show, and have a LOT
more activity, not to mention consequence. All I could think of when Sisko
fell into the fire pit and end up in the Temple was "That's it?!?" Except for
some past clips, Sisko wasn't even there for the last 20 minutes! That was
just WRONG. Brooks can certainly carry an entire episode, Far Beyond the Stars
proved that.
Shaun
Ronlad21
>>Shaun
You said it brother. Tell him like it is.
Dave Roy
Hennig" <ma...@compusmart.ab.ca> saying:
>
>
>>
>>Fire3Sky wrote in message <19990602021335...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
>>>I have to agree that Behr and Beimler havn't exactly done a stellar job.
>>With
>>>most of TPTB, I can think of some really good eps that they wrote, but
>with
>>>Behr, I can't think of any offhand.
>Did I miss something? What happened to Braga and Moore?
What do you mean, "What happened to Braga and Moore?" Braga's never
had anything to do with DS9, and Ron Moore's probably included in the
"most of TPTB" in the above paragraph.
Dave Roy
Ronlad21
this finale stunk up the holosuite. For months, people have been saying, oh
don't worry, they're building up to a great finale. Yeah, the
pacing is slow and dull -- as usual -- but they're going to wrap it all up in
an incredible finish.>
Man I'm not self-deluded. I don't care what others did or did not like. What
counts for me is if I liked it or not. The finale had its problems; but no show
is 100% excellent. For exsample; I also like B5, but I thought that the last
season sucked. And the finale was boring. And I think that B5 went out more as
a whimper than DS9 ever did. And I still like B5 anyway. But you won't care
about my opinions just like I don't care about yours. Now some people may
disagree with me; but I don't care. What counts is me. You are just trying to
make people angry because you are a freaking troll. And this is the last time
I'm going to respond to your verbal insults. You may respond back to me; but
nobodies home.
Sanfam (with Cable!)
berse...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7j3t13$q8e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>better
>> >finale. While drunk on Pabst.
>>
>the time
>> he served on the show. I just think Moore or perhaps Peter Allan
>Fields
>> should have been given this last episode. Hell, Piller might have
>done a
>> better job.
>
>There is a reason Moore is going to Voyager and Behr isn't. Shoot,
>judging by the story credits it looks like half the final arc ideas
>were Fields'!
>
>>
>> >almost screwed up Far Beyond the Stars,
>>
>
>Brilliant, but the pointless "the Prophets are trying to encourage
>Sisko" bit was a distraction. Why would the Prophets give that vision?
>And it got too cheeky with the "is it is real?" bit. Surprise, there
>was no Benny in the final. A year old plotline and they can't even
>keep it straight.
>
>>
this up. This is on my top 8 favorite episodes list though. I Loved it.
And
>> >Now they'll never
>> >be a DS9 movie,
NEVER, EVER, Say NEVER (oops, said it 2x)
>> Berman's hinted that at least some of the characters will return
>eventually,
>> but it won't be the same.
Good Chars: Kira, Nog, Vic, MORN (he has to say the epilogue), ezri +
bashier (for the purposes of char development),
>>
>> > I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That, and that
>> >shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I
>seriously if
>> >they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
>>
>> The DS9 finale was a better story than Phantom Menace (if not as
>spectacular),
>> but both were extreme disappointements. Never got into B5, but I
>understand
>> your frustrations.
>
If you Dont Like'em, DONT WATCH'EM.
It's as easy as 1-2-5. Dont Come Here Complaining all about what ou claim
to hate. i am not talking about this post specifically, but the ones before
it.
And how can you not like B5?!?!
It Rocked (IMHO)
just as an expansion on other topics
if hey do make a new series, use the future uniforms (top color-gray
seperator stripe on shoulder level-bottom color [same as top]-and pants
[also same color as top])
along with the new commbadge and bleep (as seen in some of those trael to
the future episodes; ex. all good things, and the one where ben gets zapped
by the warp core or something and becomes chronically (time wise) unstable
and arrives in the future after a certain interval and then disapears and
this happens over and over again.)
ShaunNavis
>It's as easy as 1-2-5. Dont Come Here Complaining all about what ou claim
>to hate.
Excuse me, but did I say I hate DS9? NO! I said the finale sucked. I've been
a huge fan all seven years, and I've been extremely disappointed with parts of
the last two. Do I have that right? DS9 is still my favorite Trek series, but
they went out with a whimper, not a bang. I have that right to share my
thoughts and views. Still think the series was mostly great, even if they
squandered a lot fo great opportunities.
>And how can you not like B5?!?!
>It Rocked (IMHO)
>
Yeah, IYHO. Not in mine. The stories were good, but I thought the acting was
wooden and flat. Even laughable. Didn't like the characters, nor did I care
about them the way I did the DS9 characters. I also hated B5's reliance on CGI
FX.
Shaun
Blanche Cohen
ability to construct paragraphs, and limited - nay, unimaginative
derrogatory euphemisms - I'd say no, you couldn't write a better
finale.
--
Unsolicited Email of any kind delivered to this address is subject to a
$50 charge. Emailing such items, whether automatically or manually,
constitutes acceptance of and agreement to this charge. That pretty
much covers postage and handling. http://rainbow.rmii.com/~blanche/email.html
George Avalos
Blanche Cohen wrote in message <7je8pb$g40$1...@news1.rmi.net>...
>Based on your limited ability to craft a coherent sentence, limited
>ability to construct paragraphs, and limited - nay, unimaginative
>derrogatory euphemisms - I'd say no, you couldn't write a better
>finale.
Who cares if Tiberius, or you, or I, or Beserker! can write a better finale.
The only point of any importance at all is that the people who are allegedly
PAID to have done so in real life FAILED to do so. They wrote a sappy, flat,
incoherent, waste of time as the final episode of DS9.
They completely mishandled the war story since the Prophets made the Jemmys
go "poof" in the wormhole. They wasted all too many episodes in S7 on
pathetic silliness like Vic Fontaine. They never produced any sort of real
feeling that a war was underway.
And when they tried to wrap it all up in two hours, they failed again. And
now the Trek worshippers have Voyager as their flagship. Paramount should
have stopped with STNG. At least that way the TV series would have gone out
on a note of high quality and they could have concentrated on movies.
--George
Ronlad21
<Excuse me, but did I say I hate DS9? NO! I said the finale sucked. I've
been a huge fan all seven years, and I've been extremely disappointed with
parts of the last two. Do I have that right? DS9 is still my favorite Trek
series, but they went out with a whimper, not a bang. I have that right to
share my thoughts and views. Still think the series was mostly great, even if
they squandered a lot for great opportunities.>
Yes you do have that right. You know, I have the same feelings that you have
for DS9's last two years; but for B5 instead. But that is just me. Do each is
own.
berse...@hotmail.com
"George Avalos" <gav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Berserker! wrote in message <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
> >be a DS9 movie, not that the chances were strong anyway, because of
this
> >sack of shit episode!
>
because of
> the inherent dullness, lousy acting, poor scripts and canyon-like
plotholes
> that have dogged DS9 since its first season.
Cite proof or retract. DS9 could be quite exciting, had some of the
best acting on TV (this, from the person who enjoys watching Gellar try
to emote?), great scripts at times, and plotholes no worse than any
other show.
Given that they made a highly shitty Buffy film even before the show
existed, anything's possible.
>
> >----> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this. That,
and that
> >shit Phantom Menace, and that shit season five to B5, and I
seriously if
> >they've got monkeys typing scripts over there in Hollywood.
>
> Hee, hee, hee! Looks like even the fanboys like Beserker have had the
scales
> lifted from their eyes. Been warning you for years that the Trek
franchise
> peaked at the moment the credits came up in Best of Both Worlds--Part
2.
That's absolute garbage. TRek has had many fine moments since then.
Though, to your distate no doubt, none of them involved Incan Lizard
Boys.
>And
> that it's been downhill ever since. DS9's last season fell into a pit.
> Voyager will complete the descent into the abyss.
Voyager had its best season ever. And despite a lousy finale much of
this arc ws nothing short of excellent.
>
> Even re-runs of TNG are preferable to watching the current Trek dreck
that's
> on TV. And the DS9 finale proves it.
I'd like some actual reasoning behind this. Otherwise, you're coming
off as a predatory troll.
>
> Anyway, glad you woke up. Too bad it was too late.
>
> --George
>
>
FrogPriest
>. Nearly ever review I have read of the finale doesn't criticize
>the story as it is, but merely rips it to shreds for what it isn't: "I
>wanted them to do this" and "that character should have done that"
Well, here is a criticism of what they did do with the script---They turned the
finale into a variation of the movie "Airport" (not Airplane!).
The disaster (with the plane /war) allows everyone to make decisions about
their lives they must face and they all depart to separate journeys. I really
hate to realize that they took such a worn out story like Airport and just
changed the characters around.
I liked a lot of the finale but...
George the Dragon Slayer--remove alpha for replies
George Avalos
berse...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7jh7vf$c3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <7j7q2d$jmj$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "George Avalos" <gav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> Berserker! wrote in message <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
>> >Now they'll never
>> >be a DS9 movie, not that the chances were strong anyway, because of
>this
>> >sack of shit episode!
>>
>> Wake up and smell the coffee. There was never a chance of a movie
>because of
>> the inherent dullness, lousy acting, poor scripts and canyon-like
>plotholes
>> that have dogged DS9 since its first season.
>
>Cite proof or retract.
The dullness is proved by virtually every episode. It was just dull, period.
But for evidence: The moronic, endless repetitive use of Vic Fontaine. For
poor scripts, the over-use of the mirror universe.
And for the plotholes, I need to do no more than cite one little situation.
And that would be the Jemmy's going "poof" in the wormhole. Whisked away,
apparently by magic, through a process that is entirely inconsistent with
the Trek universe. A plothole through which one could drive the 2,000 Jemmy
ships that magically disappeared
I need cite two instances
>DS9 could be quite exciting, had some of the
>best acting on TV (this, from the person who enjoys watching Gellar try
>to emote?),
Once again -- no surprise in your case, however -- you resort to trashing
other shows that only YOU bring up to bolster the tottering walls of DS9.
You
consistently are the first to bring up B5, Buffy, for whatever reason. You
Trek
acolytes like to have it both ways. If somebody -- not I -- wishes to debate
some such as "Would the White Star beat the Defiant" or would the M.Falc.
beat the Defiant, so often, Trek fans blast the originators and suggest they
take it to another news group. YOU are the one who brought up an extraneous
situation.
>Given that they made a highly shitty Buffy film even before the show
>existed, anything's possible.
There you go again. Wouldn't expect anything more of you.
>> >----> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this.
Well, finally some accurate analysis from you.
>
>Voyager had its best season ever. And despite a lousy finale much of
>this arc ws nothing short of excellent.
Excellent. Then you have your flagship in ST:V. Who knows, maybe Voyager
will be a better show than DS9. Not that it will have to try very hard.
>> Anyway, glad you woke up. Too bad it was too late.
>>
>> --George
One last thing. Since you're so fond of bringing up OT prime-time shows, I
understand from your other posts that we both like "Homicide:LOTS." Truly a
brilliant show. And only Sipowicz and Simone can come close to the great
partnership of Pembleton and Bayliss.
But I suspect we watched Homicide in different ways, despite our common love
of the show. I infer that this difference might exist due to the infantile
nature of nearly all your posts.
I was able to stay up late enough, since it wasn't past my bedtime, to watch
the show the night it aired, even if I had to tape it.
In your case, the adult(s) in your house probably had to tape the show when
it aired, and then let you watch it the next morning when your big eyes
opened on Saturday.
(Of course, they would have to be sure that your favorite Saturday morning
cartoons were a re-run, or over for the day, before you watched it).
--George
Luis Ramirez
>
> berse...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7jh7vf$c3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <7j7q2d$jmj$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > "George Avalos" <gav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Berserker! wrote in message <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
> >> >Now they'll never
> >> >be a DS9 movie, not that the chances were strong anyway, because of
> >this
> >> >sack of shit episode!
> >>
> >> Wake up and smell the coffee. There was never a chance of a movie
> >because of
> >> the inherent dullness, lousy acting, poor scripts and canyon-like
> >plotholes
> >> that have dogged DS9 since its first season.
> >
> >Cite proof or retract.
Lousy acting. Thats why a lot of us felt sad that Odo and Kira would be
seperated. Thats why we felt sad when we saw Obrien pick up the little
red army figure and began remembering about Bashir. Thats why we felt
sad when Jake was finishing his father's model and began remembering
about his father. For lousy actors, they sure can make us feel.
>
> The dullness is proved by virtually every episode. It was just dull, period.
> But for evidence: The moronic, endless repetitive use of Vic Fontaine. For
> poor scripts, the over-use of the mirror universe.
>
Vic Fontaine may have been overused, but there were certainly Fontaine
episodes that are great. The episode where Vic's bar is taken over by
the mob. Excellent characterization in that episode, it was great to see
the cast working as a team in a situation that was outside of a warzone
and the plot was not cheap and boring but exciting and unexpected. Also,
the episode where Nog recovers from his leg injury, while not as
exciting and action packed, it explored his character very well. Odo and
Kira's first date episode. I didn't find Fontaine stories to be the most
exciting ones, but they were decsent and they served a purpose. The
mirror universe stories were okay, they may have been over-used, but not
to an extreme. I'm sure a lot of people would start complaining if DS9
only had 'war' type of episodes.
> And for the plotholes, I need to do no more than cite one little situation.
> And that would be the Jemmy's going "poof" in the wormhole. Whisked away,
> apparently by magic, through a process that is entirely inconsistent with
> the Trek universe. A plothole through which one could drive the 2,000 Jemmy
> ships that magically disappeared
>
While this may seem like a cheap resolution to the Dominion threat, its
not completely without merit. The wormhole is essentially the home of
the Prophets, they can basically do whatever they wish in the wormhole.
Thus, they can easily expel the fleet that was inside the wormhole. They
could of done this a long time ago, but it was because Sisko had risked
his life to enter the wormhole and confront them (the Prophets) that
they did what they did. This solution did not come out of thin air, it
was Sisko's persistence to reclaim DS9 and protect Bajor. Sure, the
solution is not very exciting, but its a fitting solution.
Luis.
berse...@hotmail.com
"George Avalos" <gav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> berse...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7jh7vf$c3
$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <7j7q2d$jmj$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > "George Avalos" <gav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Berserker! wrote in message <37536...@news2.surfsouth.com>...
> >> >Now they'll never
> >> >be a DS9 movie, not that the chances were strong anyway, because
of
> >this
> >> >sack of shit episode!
> >>
> >> Wake up and smell the coffee. There was never a chance of a movie
> >because of
> >> the inherent dullness, lousy acting, poor scripts and canyon-like
> >plotholes
> >> that have dogged DS9 since its first season.
> >
> >Cite proof or retract.
>
period.
> But for evidence: The moronic, endless repetitive use of Vic
Fontaine. For
> poor scripts, the over-use of the mirror universe.
Endless, repetitive use of Vic? More of a myth. He ate up too much
time in His Way and Tears of the Prophets for sure. But not much more
than those two examples that could be wildly inappropriate. And it's
not because they were out of ideas - it's because Behr has a childish
fixation with two people: Sinatra and Iggy Pop. He got Iggy on DS9,
and he got a Sinatra clone.
>
> And for the plotholes, I need to do no more than cite one little
situation.
> And that would be the Jemmy's going "poof" in the wormhole. Whisked
away,
> apparently by magic, through a process that is entirely inconsistent
with
> the Trek universe. A plothole through which one could drive the 2,000
Jemmy
> ships that magically disappeared
It's not a plothole. It was clumsily done, but the "magic" was never a
problem. It was the fact that Sisko had nothing to do with the
resolution. That WAS the problem. The idea was strong, just poorly
executed and poorly followed up on.
>
> I need cite two instances
And boy are we blown away! Maybe Sisko could have found a computer
disk on the FLOOR three months after Jenny Calender died! Would that
have pleased you?
>
> >DS9 could be quite exciting, had some of the
> >best acting on TV (this, from the person who enjoys watching Gellar
try
> >to emote?),
>
> Once again -- no surprise in your case, however -- you resort to
trashing
> other shows that only YOU bring up to bolster the tottering walls of
DS9.
> You
> consistently are the first to bring up B5, Buffy, for whatever
reason.
For the very good reason that it impeaches the attacker. George Avalos
saying on his own, without giving any reasons, that DS9 has bad acting
(a bizarre statement) looks pretty stupid given his evident preference
in acting.
>You
> Trek
> acolytes like to have it both ways. If somebody -- not I -- wishes to
debate
> some such as "Would the White Star beat the Defiant" or would the
M.Falc.
> beat the Defiant, so often, Trek fans blast the originators and
suggest they
> take it to another news group. YOU are the one who brought up an
extraneous
> situation.
You're the non-fan jumping on the bashing bandwagon days after it left
the station. Seems to me you are instigating things.
>
> >Given that they made a highly shitty Buffy film even before the show
> >existed, anything's possible.
>
> There you go again. Wouldn't expect anything more of you.
>
> >> >----> I am A-1 pissed that we waited seven years for this.
>
> Well, finally some accurate analysis from you.
> >
> >Voyager had its best season ever. And despite a lousy finale much of
> >this arc ws nothing short of excellent.
>
> Excellent. Then you have your flagship in ST:V. Who knows, maybe
Voyager
> will be a better show than DS9. Not that it will have to try very
hard.
Really. Once again, George backs up his argument with a pat statement.
That whole insult sort of died on you, didn't it? I mean, you're
calling me a fan of cartoons? This, from the Buffy fan? Whee, we must
stop the mayor/snake!
George Avalos
berse...@hotmail.com wrote in message <
>> And for the plotholes, I need to do no more than cite one little
>situation.
>> And that would be the Jemmy's going "poof" in the wormhole. Whisked
>away,
>> apparently by magic, through a process that is entirely inconsistent
>with
>> the Trek universe. A plothole through which one could drive the 2,000
>Jemmy
>> ships that magically disappeared
>
>It's not a plothole. It was clumsily done, but the "magic" was never a
>problem.
Little Bee, the plothole occurred when you had one ship facing 2,000. The
only way out was Deus Ex Machina stupidity to perform an amazing magic trick
and whisk away all of the enemy ships. At that point it should have become
obvious to all but the Trek sheep-ple that this show was relying on
more than techno-babble to resolve its problems, it was making things up out
of whole cloth without any justification at all.
Anything that had the power to project such extraordinary energies, even in
the wormhole, surely should have had the power to eradicate the Cardassian
menace on Bajor. I had the impression that the wormhole is not at a
tremendous distance from Bajor prime. Surely they could have blasted the
occasional Cardy ship passing through or orbiting the beleagured planet. But
instead, the writers brought this disappearing act out of nowhere. No basis,
no foundation, just foolishness.
>It was the fact that Sisko had nothing to do with the
>resolution. That WAS the problem. The idea was strong, just poorly
>executed and poorly followed up on.
And therefore the weak foundation upon which the rest of the non-war was
built.
>> I need cite two instances
>
>And boy are we blown away! Maybe Sisko could have found a computer
>disk on the FLOOR three months after Jenny Calender died! Would that
>have pleased you?
Again, you bring up other shows. I'm not sure why. In this group, I'm
discussing one show, and one show only -- DS9.
You, on the other hand, have such a weakling of a show to defend that your
only recourse is to attempt to present your displeasure with other shows.
The problem is, you'd have to cut down the trees that are the equivalent to
the other shows to reduce them to the stature of the dead shrub that is, and
has been, DS9. That's the problem you've got. And it's one you can't
overcome.
>That whole (Homicide) insult sort of died on you, didn't it?
I simply presumed they were facts, judging from the infantile drivel that
characterizes your posts.
Again, I had brought up from time to time that the whole war arc was being
wasted. The DS9 fans typically repeated the mantra that it would all be
resolved in a big, blow-out sort of finale. Never fear, things would end on
a tremendous, climactic, exciting note. So, with that being the mindset, I
figured what's the point in pointing out the flaws, when few people seemed
aware that precious time was being wasted in S7.
All of a sudden, time ran out. The whole finale was rushed, a mess, a
mish-mash -- because the writers never took the effort to complete S7 in an
orderly fashion.
They could have stretched out the actual battle for Cardassia, shown us more
of the aftermath wreckage on that wicked planet, and the chickens coming
home to roost, shown us the just desserts for those who would be warlords.
They could have shown us more of the situation on Bajor. I wonder what they
would have thought, as a planet, of the destruction of their tormentors.
They could have shown more of a punishment for the Founders and the
Dominion, which brought so much misery to so many planets. How about some
episodes on places like some of the occupied non-Bajor worlds? Maybe some
episodes on efforts to free them. If it's a war, if you've got a war playing
out on such a grand scale, why not use the rich tapestry that's available?
Instead, a waste.
Now, I've made an effort to watch the great majority of DS9 episodes this
season and last. Too much Vic Fontaine, too much Take Me Back to the
Holosuite, too much mirror universe these last seasons, and sure there were
a few episodes here and there that I deliberately skipped. It was filler
anyway.
And I watched the "arc" that "culminated" in the finale, because I certainly
wanted to have the facts to judge the completion of this odd little show.
And the judgement is that it was a mess and a disappointment.
Finally, you've spent quite some time bashing people who like Babylon 5.
One can hardly start a thread (although it's been some weeks since I looked
in on the B5 groups) without little Beserker sticking his nose in there and
gloating about how horrible a show that was.
Hey, I have no problem with anyone expressing an on-topic opinion in the
appropriate place. So you were perfectly justified to do so, no matter how
empty-headed are your opinions.
But now... having taken the time to judge DS9, I'm letting you know what a
pathetic, limp show you've been watching for 7 years.
And as I noted elsewhere, "Payback's a bitch." If you can't take payback in
the form of justified critcism of DS9, considering all the drivel you've
dished out, you're even more childish than you've appeared to this point.
--George
David E. Sluss
berse...@hotmail.com wrote:
>"George Avalos" <gav...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>The dullness is proved by virtually every episode. It was just dull,
>>period. But for evidence: The moronic, endless repetitive use of Vic
>>Fontaine. For poor scripts, the over-use of the mirror universe.
>
>Endless, repetitive use of Vic? More of a myth. He ate up too much
>time in His Way and Tears of the Prophets for sure. But not much more
>than those two examples that could be wildly inappropriate.
How about "It's Only a Paper Moon" in which the entire cast was
sidelined so that Nog could be counselled by Vic? How about
"Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang" in which the entire senior staff dropped
everything to save holographic Vic from being killed by holographic
gangsters? That's two hours essentially pissed away that might have
otherwise been put to better use. Vic _was_ overused and moronic.
>>And for the plotholes, I need to do no more than cite one little
>>situation. And that would be the Jemmy's going "poof" in the
>>wormhole. Whisked away, apparently by magic, through a process that
>>is entirely inconsistent with the Trek universe. A plothole through
>>which one could drive the 2,000 Jemmy ships that magically disappeared
>
>It's not a plothole. It was clumsily done, but the "magic" was never a
>problem. It was the fact that Sisko had nothing to do with the
>resolution. That WAS the problem. The idea was strong, just poorly
>executed and poorly followed up on.
I wouldn't characterize that as a "plot hole," either, but it's
certainly lousy plotting. It's not a strong idea at all, but one
necessitated by the writers allowing things to get out of hand and the
Dominion to become so strong that by the time "Craprifice of Angels"
rolled around, Prophet Ex Machina was the only way out. But then we
had that particular discussion a long time ago.
--
// David E. Sluss (The Cynic) \\ // "I'm impatient with \\
//_________ sluss%dhp.com _________\\//__ stupidity. My people have __\\
\\ Cynics Corner Interactive //\\ learned to live without it." //
\\ http://users.dhp.com/~sluss // \\ Klaatu //
NthDoctor (Tony Smith)
It's my turn..........
George Avalos <gav...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
: Little Bee, the plothole occurred when you had one ship facing 2,000. The
: only way out was Deus Ex Machina stupidity to perform an amazing magic
trick
: and whisk away all of the enemy ships. At that point it should have
become
: obvious to all but the Trek sheep-ple that this show was relying on
: more than techno-babble to resolve its problems, it was making things up
out
: of whole cloth without any justification at all.
Powerful beings interceding on behalf of the good guys is nothing new to
Sci-Fi. Babylon 5 (a show apparently you and I both liked) utilized a
similar mechanism in the final moments of the Shadow War.
: Anything that had the power to project such extraordinary energies, even
in
: the wormhole, surely should have had the power to eradicate the
Cardassian
: menace on Bajor. I had the impression that the wormhole is not at a
: tremendous distance from Bajor prime. Surely they could have blasted the
: occasional Cardy ship passing through or orbiting the beleagured planet.
But
: instead, the writers brought this disappearing act out of nowhere. No
basis,
: no foundation, just foolishness.
Had you watched the show faithfully, you'd have noticed that there was
quite a bit of discussiuon amongst the various Bajoran characters as to why
the "all-powerful" prophets allowed the occupation of Bajor to take place
in the first place. It was this dissenting movement which eventually gave
rise to the renewed cult of the pagh wraiths seen in episodes like
"Covenant."
: >It was the fact that Sisko had nothing to do with the
: >resolution. That WAS the problem. The idea was strong, just poorly
: >executed and poorly followed up on.
:
:
: And therefore the weak foundation upon which the rest of the non-war was
: built.
Sisko persuaded the Prophets to interefere (much like Sheriden persuaded
the Vorlons to become directly involved in the Shadow War.) Both
characters later paid a heavy price for their decisions....
: You, on the other hand, have such a weakling of a show to defend that
your
: only recourse is to attempt to present your displeasure with other shows.
: The problem is, you'd have to cut down the trees that are the equivalent
to
: the other shows to reduce them to the stature of the dead shrub that is,
and
: has been, DS9. That's the problem you've got. And it's one you can't
: overcome.
No show is entirely without its faults DS9 and Babylon 5 included.
However, I strongly disagree with your characterization of DS9 as a dead
shrub of a show.
: Again, I had brought up from time to time that the whole war arc was
being
: wasted. The DS9 fans typically repeated the mantra that it would all be
: resolved in a big, blow-out sort of finale. Never fear, things would end
on
: a tremendous, climactic, exciting note. So, with that being the mindset,
I
: figured what's the point in pointing out the flaws, when few people
seemed
: aware that precious time was being wasted in S7.
I'll admit that the war did seem to end too quickly. But that's hardly a
problem of DS9 alone. The entire Shadow War Arc of B5, the final battle
vs. the Visitors in V and a number of other shows with war as the central
point-all have it.
: All of a sudden, time ran out. The whole finale was rushed, a mess, a
: mish-mash -- because the writers never took the effort to complete S7 in
an
: orderly fashion.
You fault DS9 for a mish-mash plot and praise B5! Talk about hypocrisy!
The entire introduction of the Sheriden character, his background and the
whole arc of seasons 3+ had to be reorganized when JMS replaced Michael
O'Hare with Bruce Boxleitner. What was supposed to be the series
finale-War Without End (Pts I and II) was movied up to the third season and
a new finale was created.
: They could have stretched out the actual battle for Cardassia, shown us
more
: of the aftermath wreckage on that wicked planet, and the chickens coming
: home to roost, shown us the just desserts for those who would be
warlords.
B5 had the total mishandling of the telepath situation, the Great Machine,
the introduction and abandonment of Brother Theo and his fellow monks (seen
I think twice,), the final fate of Talia Winters, Jason Ironheart, Bester
and the Psi-Corp, the telepaths who were programmed to be CPUs for the
shadow ships, etc.
: They could have shown us more of the situation on Bajor. I wonder what
they
: would have thought, as a planet, of the destruction of their tormentors.
Like I said above, missed oppurtunities....all movies and shows are full of
them.
:
: They could have shown more of a punishment for the Founders and the
: Dominion, which brought so much misery to so many planets. How about some
: episodes on places like some of the occupied non-Bajor worlds? Maybe some
: episodes on efforts to free them. If it's a war, if you've got a war
playing
: out on such a grand scale, why not use the rich tapestry that's
available?
:
: Instead, a waste.
Same could be said of B5. What about all the officers who were loyal to
Clark, relief efforts to colonies hit during one of the four wars that B5
fought in (Narn-Centauri, Shadow, Earth Liberation, Centauri vs. Alliance)
: Now, I've made an effort to watch the great majority of DS9 episodes this
: season and last. Too much Vic Fontaine, too much Take Me Back to the
: Holosuite, too much mirror universe these last seasons, and sure there
were
: a few episodes here and there that I deliberately skipped. It was filler
: anyway.
:
: And I watched the "arc" that "culminated" in the finale, because I
certainly
: wanted to have the facts to judge the completion of this odd little show.
: And the judgement is that it was a mess and a disappointment.
:
: Finally, you've spent quite some time bashing people who like Babylon 5.
:
: One can hardly start a thread (although it's been some weeks since I
looked
: in on the B5 groups) without little Beserker sticking his nose in there
and
: gloating about how horrible a show that was.
:
: Hey, I have no problem with anyone expressing an on-topic opinion in the
: appropriate place. So you were perfectly justified to do so, no matter
how
: empty-headed are your opinions.
Empty headed? What about the hypocritical nature of your opinions.
Bashing DS9 for committing the same errors as B5.
: But now... having taken the time to judge DS9, I'm letting you know what
a
: pathetic, limp show you've been watching for 7 years.
I've heard similar comments in referring to B5 5th season, any TNG episdode
after 4th season etc. Its a matter of taste.
: And as I noted elsewhere, "Payback's a bitch." If you can't take payback
in
: the form of justified critcism of DS9, considering all the drivel you've
: dished out, you're even more childish than you've appeared to this point.
:
: --George
I'd be more than happy to take up DS9's standard against any charge you
wish to throw at it. But be warned......I'm probably a lot more
knowledgeable on matters Star Trek, B5, Doctor Who (post Pertwee Era) and
just about any other sci fi show out there, as well as being a damn good
literary critic. So if you're going to fault DS9 for something...you'd
better be prepared to hold up an example from a similar style show as the
way it should have been done. Hindsight is twenty twenty after all.
--
NthDoctor
nta...@airmail.net
berse...@hotmail.com
You just don't get it, do you? The Prophets have been well established
as goofy aliens with weird powers. Funny how someone like you can
accept without blinking that Q can stop a planet rotating, but heaven
forbid that the Prophets can do whatever they want in their own home.
Second, the wormhole confrontation WAS set up. Everything I've seen
from the writers suggests that. To create such a specific scenario
because they had merely "painted themselves into a corner" just doesn't
wash.
>
> Anything that had the power to project such extraordinary energies,
even in
> the wormhole, surely should have had the power to eradicate the
Cardassian
> menace on Bajor. I had the impression that the wormhole is not at a
> tremendous distance from Bajor prime. Surely they could have blasted
the
> occasional Cardy ship passing through or orbiting the beleagured
planet. But
> instead, the writers brought this disappearing act out of nowhere. No
basis,
> no foundation, just foolishness.
See, I hate having to put up with such stupidity from you. The very
first episode showed the wormhole was quite a good bit of distance from
Bajor. They only stumbled upon it because of records dating back
hundreds of years recording an occasional ship disappearance.
And once again this assumes that the Prophets care about Bajor. Sisko
had to convince them of that very fact in Sacrifice.
So once again you're SOL.
>
> >It was the fact that Sisko had nothing to do with the
> >resolution. That WAS the problem. The idea was strong, just poorly
> >executed and poorly followed up on.
>
> And therefore the weak foundation upon which the rest of the non-war
was
> built.
No, it could have still been saved.
>
> >> I need cite two instances
> >
> >And boy are we blown away! Maybe Sisko could have found a computer
> >disk on the FLOOR three months after Jenny Calender died! Would that
> >have pleased you?
>
> Again, you bring up other shows. I'm not sure why. In this group, I'm
> discussing one show, and one show only -- DS9.
I'm discussing other shows because you can accept their problems
without blinking. This means you're a hypocrite. I'm merely wondering
if DS9 beat you as a child because you're going to pretty pathetic
lengths (like demonstrating your ignorance of the show) to attack it.
>
> You, on the other hand, have such a weakling of a show to defend that
your
> only recourse is to attempt to present your displeasure with other
shows.
> The problem is, you'd have to cut down the trees that are the
equivalent to
> the other shows to reduce them to the stature of the dead shrub that
is, and
> has been, DS9. That's the problem you've got. And it's one you can't
> overcome.
Really? Are you saying Buffy is a mighty tree? Last night's episode
wsa joke. Aw, Angel lost his soul, and the guy from Dear John hired a
ninja to help with it!
>
> >That whole (Homicide) insult sort of died on you, didn't it?
>
> I simply presumed they were facts, judging from the infantile drivel
that
> characterizes your posts.
It was a very bad insult. Here are two friendly tips: One, a ginle
insult shouldn't drag on for four paragraphs. Two, by indirectly
insulting Homicide for infantile me liking it, you indirectly insult
yourself also since you too lke Homicide. I guess we're on the same
mental wavelength!
>
> Again, I had brought up from time to time that the whole war arc was
being
> wasted. The DS9 fans typically repeated the mantra that it would all
be
> resolved in a big, blow-out sort of finale. Never fear, things would
end on
> a tremendous, climactic, exciting note. So, with that being the
mindset, I
> figured what's the point in pointing out the flaws, when few people
seemed
> aware that precious time was being wasted in S7.
I'd even give them the benefit of the doubt that 10 hour was enough to
resolve the war, had they merely plotted it correctly.
>
> All of a sudden, time ran out. The whole finale was rushed, a mess, a
> mish-mash -- because the writers never took the effort to complete S7
in an
> orderly fashion.
It wasn't RUSHED. My god, they had time for a clip fest! It was
simply stupidly done. That's Ira Behr for you. Look at some of the
worst episodes of the last two years - Emperor's New Cloak, Wrongs
Darker, Profit and Lace. He wrote them. He also had heavy rewriting
responsibilities with episodes like Who Mourns for Morn? and
Resurrection. The guy is a hack, I have no trouble admitting that.
>
> They could have stretched out the actual battle for Cardassia, shown
us more
> of the aftermath wreckage on that wicked planet, and the chickens
coming
> home to roost, shown us the just desserts for those who would be
warlords.
We did get that. The episode's two best scenes dealt with that.
>
> They could have shown us more of the situation on Bajor. I wonder
what they
> would have thought, as a planet, of the destruction of their
tormentors.
The scenario I present in my review is more intriguing IMHO, with the
Bajorans even questioning their religion. Most didn't see the elected
Kai as a tormentor.
>
> They could have shown more of a punishment for the Founders and the
> Dominion, which brought so much misery to so many planets. How about
some
> episodes on places like some of the occupied non-Bajor worlds? Maybe
some
> episodes on efforts to free them. If it's a war, if you've got a war
playing
> out on such a grand scale, why not use the rich tapestry that's
available?
>
> Instead, a waste.
Well, I agree, it was a waste, but you're suggesting plotlines for a
season eight. Freeing Dominion held worlds in the Gamma? After a
costly war and a costly peace the Federation just can't do that.
>
> Now, I've made an effort to watch the great majority of DS9 episodes
this
> season and last. Too much Vic Fontaine, too much Take Me Back to the
> Holosuite, too much mirror universe these last seasons, and sure
there were
> a few episodes here and there that I deliberately skipped. It was
filler
> anyway.
DS9 does 26 episodes a year, two more than most shows. I feel it is
entitled to do two comedies. The problem is that the comedies often
aren't funny.
>
> And I watched the "arc" that "culminated" in the finale, because I
certainly
> wanted to have the facts to judge the completion of this odd little
show.
> And the judgement is that it was a mess and a disappointment.
Dogs of War and Extreme Measures certainly were messes, but the other
episodes weren't.
>
> Finally, you've spent quite some time bashing people who like Babylon
5.
>
> One can hardly start a thread (although it's been some weeks since I
looked
> in on the B5 groups) without little Beserker sticking his nose in
there and
> gloating about how horrible a show that was.
I can't wait to do it to Crusade!
The problem is, I am also a former B5 fan, until Zhahadum. I also know
what I am talking about with regards to the show. I also direct my
attacks mostly toward JMS, who has richly deserved them.
>
> Hey, I have no problem with anyone expressing an on-topic opinion in
the
> appropriate place. So you were perfectly justified to do so, no
matter how
> empty-headed are your opinions.
Funny how you struggle to counter my empty headed opinions
>
> But now... having taken the time to judge DS9, I'm letting you know
what a
> pathetic, limp show you've been watching for 7 years.
Pathetic, limp? Se, this is what separates me from you: I can fully
admit that B5 did BRILLIANT episodes, but apparently from the start DS9
never did anything right for poor George. It's hard to find you
credible a a result.
>
> And as I noted elsewhere, "Payback's a bitch." If you can't take
payback in
> the form of justified critcism of DS9, considering all the drivel
you've
> dished out, you're even more childish than you've appeared to this
point.
How can I not take criticism of DS9? Do I have to point out for the
ninth time that I've dished it far better than anyone else with regards
to this stinker of a finale?
George, my problem with you is that you are a POSER. You are another
Frankln Hummel. You hate DS9 out of instinct, no doubt never gave it a
chance, and by some coincidence are hopping over here now to bash the
show when even the fans are bashing it. Call me childish all day long,
but you are SPINELESS. It takes no great intellectual feat to walk
into a flame war and add "Yeah! DS9 is poo-poo!" to a chorus of people
who are actually putting forth valid criticisms of the show. It's
obvious from watching you that you could care less about discussing
this. You're simply here to stroke yourself, and in a week you'll be
gone.
Ronlad21
Would Berserker and George Avalos quit already and sign the peace accord. In
the end ; what counts is that DS9 and B5 went out as a whimper instead of a
bang. Both shows were a piece of shit in their last season and their finale was
crap. And this is from a fan of both show. Don't you guys have something better
to do then spending your time insulting each other and bashing each other's
favorite shows. After reading both your posts, I can't imagine seeing myself
watching both B5 and DS9 ever again. Again Both of you should get a life. In
the end; both shows Sucked.
Luvhomescl
>with DS9, we got to see all the characters get equal screen time, unlike
>Picard having the entire episode to himself in TNG's finale.
>
The finale was moving, but very disappointing in that it's solutions to one of
the main arcs disregarded stuff previously established on the show. The
prophet/wraith arc was poor, and relied on fx and "emotional punch" rather than
anythign that made sense of previous eps like "rapture", "the reckoning", and
even one of my lease favorite Ds9 eps "tears of the prophets". The prophet arc
felt like something they made up as they went along. Actually, it felt like
someone with short term memory loss made up as they went along.
the Odo/Founders arc was perfect, though. Resolved well. And as much as I will
miss damar, I found his demise fitting.
Like most Behr/Beimler writing, this was scattered and a bit chaotic. The
finale had some excellent parts, and some poor ones.
I was so disappointed, though, at the wraith/prophet thing. Sisko deserved a
better written resolution. This part was terrible.
Luvhomescl
>Excuse me, but did I say I hate DS9? NO! I said the finale sucked. I've
>been
>a huge fan all seven years, and I've been extremely disappointed with parts
>of
>the last two.
Ditto. Ditto Ditto Ditto...
> I have that right to share my
>thoughts and views.
You do, and I agree with you here.
> Still think the series was mostly great, even if they
>squandered a lot fo great opportunities.
Yep. they'd toss out a plot thread, and then start stitching with a whole new
one, ignoring the last one. This was very frustrating, since Ds9 can do stories
so well.
I wish... I really wish... they'd stuck with some more of the threads they
already had dangling, instead of taking the prophet story into a strange new
land (with no connections to previous prophet plot developments).
At times I felt like I was watching a show that jumped from alternate universe
to alternate universe... good shows, but each in a different reality.
And this makes me so sad for what could have been.