{DS9} Observations on "For the Uniform" -Can't think of anything
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
The Good
1. I don't know the name of the actor who plays Eddington but he is pretty
damn good. Specifically while taunting Sisko in that opening exchange
between. It didn't have that Federation preachiness from SIsko, nor did it
have squirming justification from Eddington. It might have just been my
Maquis bias but I think it was prett obvious who won that little exchange
2. TNG spent so many years avoiding Federation policy that it became a sore
spot. Ds9 has slowly but surely revealing a goverment far from the
PErfection that Both Kirk and Picard loved to gloat about. I love it
3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his little
speech impediment.
5. They changed the effect for the Badlands. It looks more like a truly
deadly sector.
The Bad
1. Is it just me
2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
3. How the hell can SF, with the Klingons attacking, Changlings shifting,
and the Maquis 'maquis'ing can keep only two ships in the whole bloddy
sector.
4. The acting in this episode bordered on the quality of Homeboy's in
Outerspace at one instance and in the next was onderful. At times I
wondered if half the actors got dime a minute rates to phone in their
performances.
5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had more
technobabble than the Technical Manual.
6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
8. Overall a mediocre episode. IT has its high points(Worf and Kira's
expressions when Sisko flipped) but..... the lows were really low(Sisko
doing anything that required supposedly normal speech.
9. There wasn't very much to this episode. I get the feeling it was a place
filler between Odo's return to normal and The Dominion's attack next week.
The Cronan
1. I will never ever ever be able to accept bald and balding men in the
24th and half centtury. Next thing you know Sisko is going to believe it
when Cassidy says, "Size doesn't matter."
2. Everyone says it. Noone knows why. Brooks' enunciation. I have a theory.
There is a tribble under his upper lip you see, a very furry and
incontinent tribble.
3. How many screamed "GEORGE" when the Melenchei's captain first appeared.
4. Brooks' voice allows him to effectively portray a Klingon or a Villian
with ease. The problem is he plays a SF captain.
5. Voyager used the tired old everyone wants to do stuff illegal in South
Carolina plot and Ds9 used the tired old betrayal/revenge plot. I usually
prefer the latter unfortunately Voyager did a better job. The real sticky
thing is why they did a better job. Was it the acting? no. Was it the
directing? Writing? No on both counts. So what was it. LESS CLOTHING and
MORE VIOLENCE. Think about it.
Rob Rooney
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
in article <01bc14a6$442a97e0$1f2092cf@default>...
> The Good
> 1. I don't know the name of the actor who plays Eddington but he is
pretty
> damn good. Specifically while taunting Sisko in that opening exchange
> between. It didn't have that Federation preachiness from SIsko, nor did
it
> have squirming justification from Eddington. It might have just been my
> Maquis bias but I think it was prett obvious who won that little exchange
Kenneth Marshall. He was the lead in 'Krull' back in the 80's as well as
some other roles (although he did have more hair). I liked his performance
as well. There is no doubt in my mind who really won the whole thing. The
Maquis are still around, and now Eddington goes off to court-martial and
probably 6 months to a year in prison, and then he's out again. I think he
pretty much beat Sisko just about every way he could (and I don't mean that
to say that Sisko was weak, but Eddington just plain beat him).
> 2. TNG spent so many years avoiding Federation policy that it became a
sore
> spot. Ds9 has slowly but surely revealing a goverment far from the
> PErfection that Both Kirk and Picard loved to gloat about. I love it
It's definitely nice to see that 'paradise' has a few problems. And you
have Sisko making his own policy, even though his obsession was what drove
him to it.
> 3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
I would love to see the follow up to that one!
> 4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his
little
> speech impediment.
> 5. They changed the effect for the Badlands. It looks more like a truly
> deadly sector.
>
> The Bad
> 1. Is it just me
Of course!:)
> 2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
Well, I'd say that the Star Trek holocommunicator looked a hell of a lot
better than Star Wars's holocommunicator (even after the Special Edition).
And holographic communication is definitely not something that Star Wars
invented, they copied the idea from elsewhere. I thought that the holocomm
actually added a sense of drama to the scenes. With Eddington seemingly on
the bridge I kept wondering if Sisko would finally get pissed enough to
take a swing at him!
> 3. How the hell can SF, with the Klingons attacking, Changlings shifting,
> and the Maquis 'maquis'ing can keep only two ships in the whole bloddy
> sector.
Definitely a good point here. However, it does seem a little common for
ships to be 'the only ship in the sector' throughout Star Trek history. You
would definitely think that Starfleet would have quite a few ships near
DS9, since if the Dominion attack, that's where they'll first appear.
> 4. The acting in this episode bordered on the quality of Homeboy's in
> Outerspace at one instance and in the next was onderful. At times I
> wondered if half the actors got dime a minute rates to phone in their
> performances.
> 5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had
more
> technobabble than the Technical Manual.
Definitely. All the commands being relayed about the bridge and the ship
was a little much, methinks. While I understand why it was done, I just
wish it wasn't exactly done like that, since it's distracting. Although I
must say that it did remind me of what it's actually like on a ship with
all the orders being sent here and there, and the general appearance of
total chaos to an observer.
> 6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
Where else did they have room for it on the Defiant's bridge? If you put it
in front of the Navigator, it could block the main viewscreen. Even if you
put it in the middle of the bridge, it could block the view from the
Captain's Chair. I think that they had it in the best location available on
the bridge, out of the way of anything important. The only bad thing is
that the Captain must turn around to see it.
> 7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
Well, I'm not sure about that. Eddington had been at large for almost a
year, so catching him wasn't a reset. The Maquis are still out there, and
now have proven themselves a possible threat to Star Fleet, so that's not
the same. Their biogenic weapons were confiscated, so their threat has been
removed and in that aspect I could see it being 'reset'. But, if they kept
the weapons, they would have used them all on the Cardassian colonies, and
then their threat would have been gone as well.
> 8. Overall a mediocre episode. IT has its high points(Worf and Kira's
> expressions when Sisko flipped) but..... the lows were really low(Sisko
> doing anything that required supposedly normal speech.
I thought it was better than mediocre, but not 'great'. I'd say it was
good.
> 9. There wasn't very much to this episode. I get the feeling it was a
place
> filler between Odo's return to normal and The Dominion's attack next
week.
That's the impression I got about 'The Begotten' but not 'For The Uniform'.
It had some good character development for Sisko, and showed us just how
far he was willing to go to get Eddington. 'The Begotten' just tied up some
loose ends (Kira has a baby, and Odo is a changeling again) with some good
character development along the way, while 'Uniform' ties up the Eddington
loose end (at least for now) while still leaving the Maquis question open.
In fact, this actually puts the Maquis as a direct threat to Star Fleet, so
I would be interested to wait and see how any future Maquis episodes relate
to this.
> The Cronan
> 1. I will never ever ever be able to accept bald and balding men in the
> 24th and half centtury. Next thing you know Sisko is going to believe it
> when Cassidy says, "Size doesn't matter."
Well, Yoda said that, and he was bald too. Hmmmm.
> 2. Everyone says it. Noone knows why. Brooks' enunciation. I have a
theory.
> There is a tribble under his upper lip you see, a very furry and
> incontinent tribble.
> 3. How many screamed "GEORGE" when the Melenchei's captain first
appeared.
He really looked weird with hair after seeing him on Alien Nation, didn't
he?
> 4. Brooks' voice allows him to effectively portray a Klingon or a Villian
> with ease. The problem is he plays a SF captain.
> 5. Voyager used the tired old everyone wants to do stuff illegal in South
> Carolina plot and Ds9 used the tired old betrayal/revenge plot. I usually
> prefer the latter unfortunately Voyager did a better job. The real sticky
> thing is why they did a better job. Was it the acting? no. Was it the
> directing? Writing? No on both counts. So what was it. LESS CLOTHING and
> MORE VIOLENCE. Think about it.
Could you elaborate on the 'everyone wants to do stuff illegal in South
Carolina plot'. As I am from South Carolina, I'm just curious what it is
since I might be missing out on something.
-Rob
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <01bc14a6$442a97e0$1f2092cf@default>,
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>The Good
>1. I don't know the name of the actor who plays Eddington but he is pretty
>damn good. Specifically while taunting Sisko in that opening exchange
>between. It didn't have that Federation preachiness from SIsko, nor did it
>have squirming justification from Eddington. It might have just been my
>Maquis bias but I think it was prett obvious who won that little exchange
Ehh...it was OK. Though the final exchange was tremendous.
>2. TNG spent so many years avoiding Federation policy that it became a sore
>spot. Ds9 has slowly but surely revealing a goverment far from the
>PErfection that Both Kirk and Picard loved to gloat about. I love it
Actually, TNG was the stepping stone for this. It pretty much all
began with the formation of the DMZ, and the shuffling of all the colonists.
DS9 has always been a little more politically inclined than TNG.
>4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his little
>speech impediment.
He doesn't have an impediment. It's acting.
>5. They changed the effect for the Badlands. It looks more like a truly
>deadly sector.
NOthing different about it. They were on the fringes of the
Badlands. That and there weren't many plasma storms to be seen.
>The Bad
>2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
Not really. THe people aren't transparent. What I didn't get was the
fact that everyone was standing. Wouldn't they be sitting down in the
captain's chair or something? DO they see SIsko sitting down? That's
what bothered me.
>3. How the hell can SF, with the Klingons attacking, Changlings shifting,
>and the Maquis 'maquis'ing can keep only two ships in the whole bloddy
>sector.
You have top rememebr just how far out there DS9 is. There was only
one IN RANGE. Plus you also have the remember that the one ship out there
is the Defiant. That's more than enough to hold off most attacks until
help arrives.
>4. The acting in this episode bordered on the quality of Homeboy's in
>Outerspace at one instance and in the next was onderful. At times I
>wondered if half the actors got dime a minute rates to phone in their
>performances.
Not really. AVery Brooks at his best, I think.
>5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had more
>technobabble than the Technical Manual.
I didn't have a problem with it. It gives the perfect explanation
as to how Defiant is able to maintain her balance so effectively.
It also gave the chance for us to see how exactly involved it is to
run a starship. I mean, Defiant can be run with no more than 50 people.
Maybe even less if it had too. DId you see how packed the Bridge and
Engineering was? Everything had to be calibrated, etc. How else would
you explain this without technobabble.
>6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
No where else to put it.
>7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
Not really. So what if there's reset button? You have a conflict,
then you have a resolution. How else are they supposed to do it?
--
Marc Escuro [R] They reach into your room,
Bryan E. Esquire Just feel their gentle touch.
bas...@cats.ucsc.edu When all hope is gone, you know
http://www2.ucsc.edu/~bashir/ Sad Songs say so much
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
Rob Rooney <rro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > The Good
> > 1. I don't know the name of the actor who plays Eddington but he is
> pretty
> > damn good. Specifically while taunting Sisko in that opening exchange
> > between. It didn't have that Federation preachiness from SIsko, nor did
> it
> > have squirming justification from Eddington. It might have just been my
> > Maquis bias but I think it was prett obvious who won that little
exchange
>
> Kenneth Marshall. He was the lead in 'Krull' back in the 80's as well as
> some other roles (although he did have more hair).
I didn't recognize him. Wow. I really liked Krull when I first saw it.
Cyclops, damsels and most importantly THE KRULL blade. When I was about
seven I took a frisby and so steak knives and taped them all together.
Instant Krull thingie. Threw it at a tree. One of my mom's dogwoods.
Ohhhhhh did I ever get it for that bright idea
I liked his performance
> as well. There is no doubt in my mind who really won the whole thing. The
> Maquis are still around, and now Eddington goes off to court-martial and
> probably 6 months to a year in prison, and then he's out again. I think
he
> pretty much beat Sisko just about every way he could (and I don't mean
that
> to say that Sisko was weak, but Eddington just plain beat him).
Very true. But it might also be that Sisko sympathizes with Eddington more
than he lets on
> It's definitely nice to see that 'paradise' has a few problems. And you
> have Sisko making his own policy, even though his obsession was what
drove
> him to it.
I wonder if in the very last Ds9 episode he will dosomething cool like take
the Defiant on a final and truly glorious suicide mission..
> > 3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
>
> I would love to see the follow up to that one!
I wouldn't. Odo is written with more wit and humor than any other Trek
character I have ever seen
<snipped>
> > The Bad
> > 1. Is it just me
>
> Of course!:)
Well I am used to that
> > 2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
> Well, I'd say that the Star Trek holocommunicator looked a hell of a lot
> better than Star Wars's holocommunicator (even after the Special
Edition).
> And holographic communication is definitely not something that Star Wars
> invented, they copied the idea from elsewhere. I thought that the
holocomm
> actually added a sense of drama to the scenes. With Eddington seemingly
on
> the bridge I kept wondering if Sisko would finally get pissed enough to
> take a swing at him!
That would have been nice. Especially if he was solid..
> Definitely a good point here. However, it does seem a little common for
> ships to be 'the only ship in the sector' throughout Star Trek history.
I hate that
You
> would definitely think that Starfleet would have quite a few ships near
> DS9, since if the Dominion attack, that's where they'll first appear.
Appearently SF believes the Dominion are using the wormhole for pleasure
outings only. If they decide to invade they'll just get here via
Improbability drives
<<snipped>>
> > 6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
>
> Where else did they have room for it on the Defiant's bridge?
That's kind of my point. Why add more stuff.
If you put it
> in front of the Navigator, it could block the main viewscreen. Even if
you
> put it in the middle of the bridge, it could block the view from the
> Captain's Chair. I think that they had it in the best location available
on
> the bridge, out of the way of anything important. The only bad thing is
> that the Captain must turn around to see it.
Another thing is that it kept them from having to use two other bridges
> Well, I'm not sure about that. Eddington had been at large for almost a
> year, so catching him wasn't a reset. The Maquis are still out there, and
> now have proven themselves a possible threat to Star Fleet, so that's not
> the same. Their biogenic weapons were confiscated, so their threat has
been
> removed and in that aspect I could see it being 'reset'. But, if they
kept
> the weapons, they would have used them all on the Cardassian colonies,
and
> then their threat would have been gone as well.
I would have prefered that the MAquis actually totally won or totally lost.
That would have given the Fed a brand new enemy. The Maquis state. It would
be glorious
> I thought it was better than mediocre, but not 'great'. I'd say it was
> good.
I think the Begotten was good. This had too many instances of Sisko go
talking like southern baptist preacher
> That's the impression I got about 'The Begotten' but not 'For The
Uniform'.
> It had some good character development for Sisko, and showed us just how
> far he was willing to go to get Eddington.
I suppose but we have always known Sisko is the single msot emoyional
captain when perturbed so I can't see it that way
'The Begotten' just tied up some
> loose ends (Kira has a baby, and Odo is a changeling again) with some
good
> character development along the way, while 'Uniform' ties up the
Eddington
> loose end (at least for now) while still leaving the Maquis question
open.
I disagree here. I think that in The Begotten there was far more character
devlopment for Odo that there was for Sisko in this episode.
> In fact, this actually puts the Maquis as a direct threat to Star Fleet,
so
> I would be interested to wait and see how any future Maquis episodes
relate
> to this.
I wonder how many high ranking officers have gone over to the Maquis. So
far we have seen 3. Ro Laren, Chakotay(whom Janeway said had SF command
experience), and Eddington(the most impressive so far).
>
> Well, Yoda said that, and he was bald too. Hmmmm.
Coincidence?
> He really looked weird with hair after seeing him on Alien Nation, didn't
> he?
Yes.
> > 5. Voyager used the tired old everyone wants to do stuff illegal in
South
> > Carolina plot and Ds9 used the tired old betrayal/revenge plot. I
usually
> > prefer the latter unfortunately Voyager did a better job. The real
sticky
> > thing is why they did a better job. Was it the acting? no. Was it the
> > directing? Writing? No on both counts. So what was it. LESS CLOTHING
and
> > MORE VIOLENCE. Think about it.
>
> Could you elaborate on the 'everyone wants to do stuff illegal in South
> Carolina plot'. As I am from South Carolina, I'm just curious what it is
> since I might be missing out on something.
Well lets see. You are aware that oral sex and several other very private
acts are actually on the books as illegal in SC . Living in NC I am very
afraid that Strom Thurman is going to order an invasion to retake NC.
-- Cronan Thompson, guy among men
Guaranteed offensive material in
10th message. Bring your kids.
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> Ehh...it was OK. Though the final exchange was tremendous.
Sisko was beaten rather soundly by Eddinton I thought. Not only did he beat
him tactically he beat him philisophically.
> Actually, TNG was the stepping stone for this.
Not until the very last season and even then Picard continued to insist the
Federation is perfect. We are benevolence personified and so on
It pretty much all
> began with the formation of the DMZ, and the shuffling of all the
colonists.
> DS9 has always been a little more politically inclined than TNG.
That is one of the better aspects, yes.
> >4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his
little
> >speech impediment.
>
> He doesn't have an impediment. It's acting.
It is bad over acting
<<snipped>>
> >The Bad
> >2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
>
> Not really. THe people aren't transparent.
Well if they had done a straight rip it would have been pretty obvious and
Lucas would declare war on PAramount who would send their rabid legal
department after Lucasfilms who would counter attack with intercontinental
ballistic barristers and from there it would get ugly
What I didn't get was the
> fact that everyone was standing. Wouldn't they be sitting down in the
> captain's chair or something? DO they see SIsko sitting down? That's
> what bothered me.
Well obviously they had a chair set up for him
> You have top rememebr just how far out there DS9 is.
Can;t be that far. A runabout can make it to Earth and back inside of a
week. There op warp is around 4 or 5. Warp 9 is at least 3 times as fast
There was only
> one IN RANGE.
Why?
Plus you also have the remember that the one ship out there
> is the Defiant. That's more than enough to hold off most attacks until
> help arrives.
I seriously doubt that...
> Not really. AVery Brooks at his best, I think.
Well to each his own.
> >5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had
more
> >technobabble than the Technical Manual.
>
> I didn't have a problem with it. It gives the perfect explanation
> as to how Defiant is able to maintain her balance so effectively.
There is no balance in space.
> It also gave the chance for us to see how exactly involved it is to
> run a starship. I mean, Defiant can be run with no more than 50 people.
> Maybe even less if it had too. DId you see how packed the Bridge and
> Engineering was? Everything had to be calibrated, etc. How else would
> you explain this without technobabble.
I did think it interesting that without most of the computer the bridge
became far more active than usual
> >6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
>
> No where else to put it.
Thats kind of the problem
> >7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
>
> Not really. So what if there's reset button? You have a conflict,
> then you have a resolution. How else are they supposed to do it?
Well a reset button prevents real change and growth in a series of
anything. If at the end of each novel in a series it ended the way it began
and the next book told the same story only with a twist you would pretty
mad huh? The resolution should have taken the story somewere. It didn't.
--
EnsignMM2
>The Good
>1. I don't know the name of the actor who plays Eddington but he is
pretty
>damn good. Specifically while taunting Sisko in that opening exchange
>between. It didn't have that Federation preachiness from SIsko, nor did
it
>have squirming justification from Eddington. It might have just been my
>Maquis bias but I think it was prett obvious who won that little exchange
I agree, whoever played Eddington was fabulous! I hope they find someway
to bring him back... He was so good!
>3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
I was ROTFL when he said that! It was great!
The Bad
>2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
But it's still cool, even if they did take it from SW. I really love it!
>The Cronan
>4. Brooks' voice allows him to effectively portray a Klingon or a Villian
>with ease. The problem is he plays a SF captain.
Oh yeah! He does bad so well. I especially love him in "Spencer For
Higher" as Hawk. Man, was he tough back then!
A few bads that you forgot:
1) No Bashir
2) Not ENOUGH Kira
3) Not enough Odo
Melissa M.
Live long and prosper,
By walking with the prophets,
And die with honor.
Rob Rooney
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
in article <01bc14ef$b14bb7c0$ea2192cf@default>...
> Rob Rooney <rro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > Kenneth Marshall. He was the lead in 'Krull' back in the 80's as well
as
> > some other roles (although he did have more hair).
>
> I didn't recognize him. Wow. I really liked Krull when I first saw it.
> Cyclops, damsels and most importantly THE KRULL blade. When I was about
> seven I took a frisby and so steak knives and taped them all together.
> Instant Krull thingie. Threw it at a tree. One of my mom's dogwoods.
> Ohhhhhh did I ever get it for that bright idea
That was definitely one bad-ass weapon! I always felt that this movie was a
bit under-rated. It had some elements of sci-fi and some fantasy elements
that worked fairly well together (IMO).
[snipped]
> > It's definitely nice to see that 'paradise' has a few problems. And you
> > have Sisko making his own policy, even though his obsession was what
> drove
> > him to it.
>
> I wonder if in the very last Ds9 episode he will dosomething cool like
take
> the Defiant on a final and truly glorious suicide mission..
Well, if anyone else in his command turns against him, he might just do it
a little early!
> > > 3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
> >
> > I would love to see the follow up to that one!
>
> I wouldn't. Odo is written with more wit and humor than any other Trek
> character I have ever seen
Well, I might say that McCoy has quite a bit of wit and humor (especially
when he's bickering with Spock), but Odo is definitely number one as far as
the current characters. I'd say that he and McCoy are pretty close (but you
might give it to Odo because he's had more episodes to be witty in).
[snipped]
> > > 6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
> >
> > Where else did they have room for it on the Defiant's bridge?
>
> That's kind of my point. Why add more stuff.
That's a good point. It really doesn't add that much to communications (and
I could certainly see quite a few times when you wouldn't want to be seen).
I wonder if there is a reason why they added this, other than they thought
it would look 'neat'. I don't think it's a bad thing, but it really doesn't
seem necessary. But I really don't think that the Eddington-Sisko scenes on
the Defiant would have come out so well if we got the usual viewscreen
conversation.
> Another thing is that it kept them from having to use two other bridges
Probably one of the reasons that they used it. But if they save a little
money on this, it goes into something else, so that's not all bad.
[snipped]
> I would have prefered that the MAquis actually totally won or totally
lost.
> That would have given the Fed a brand new enemy. The Maquis state. It
would
> be glorious
Like they need a new one! They just got done with the Borg (maybe), they
are under constant threat from the Dominion, and have a shaky cease-fire
with the Klingons while keeping their eyes open for those tricky Romulans.
Not to mention the occasional renegade Star Fleet officer who wants to take
over the government or something! If the Maquis had totally lost, that
would probably be the end of them, but I think that it would have
consequences with Voyager if they ever get home. As it stands now, I
wouldn't say that they were outright enemies, but they definitely 'don't
get along' at the moment.
> > That's the impression I got about 'The Begotten' but not 'For The
> Uniform'.
> > It had some good character development for Sisko, and showed us just
how
> > far he was willing to go to get Eddington.
>
> I suppose but we have always known Sisko is the single msot emoyional
> captain when perturbed so I can't see it that way
That's a good point. Actually, with this episode and Rapture, I think that
Sisko's done some things that he certainly wouldn't have done earlier in
his tour at DS9. But I certainly see where you are coming from.
> 'The Begotten' just tied up some
> > loose ends (Kira has a baby, and Odo is a changeling again) with some
> good
> > character development along the way, while 'Uniform' ties up the
> Eddington
> > loose end (at least for now) while still leaving the Maquis question
> open.
>
> I disagree here. I think that in The Begotten there was far more
character
> devlopment for Odo that there was for Sisko in this episode.
Well, I won't argue with that. Odo definitely got more mileage out of his
episode than Sisko. I think what made the Begotten less impressive to me
was the Kira/O'Brien/Shakaar B-story. It really didn't work all that well
for me, and I think that it has slightly colored my overall view of the
episode. Uniform seemed like it was more focused, probably because it
didn't have a B-story to distract you from the A-story.
> > In fact, this actually puts the Maquis as a direct threat to Star
Fleet,
> so
> > I would be interested to wait and see how any future Maquis episodes
> relate
> > to this.
>
> I wonder how many high ranking officers have gone over to the Maquis. So
> far we have seen 3. Ro Laren, Chakotay(whom Janeway said had SF command
> experience), and Eddington(the most impressive so far).
Without a doubt. Don't forget about Ben's old friend Commander Cal Hudson
from 'The Maquis'. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some dissent
amongst the higher-ups and even the Federation Council.
[Snipped]
> > Could you elaborate on the 'everyone wants to do stuff illegal in South
> > Carolina plot'. As I am from South Carolina, I'm just curious what it
is
> > since I might be missing out on something.
>
> Well lets see. You are aware that oral sex and several other very private
> acts are actually on the books as illegal in SC . Living in NC I am very
> afraid that Strom Thurman is going to order an invasion to retake NC.
Shhhhh! Don't tell everyone, we want it to be a surprise attack! And as for
certain laws - let's be glad that they don't always enforce every law!
Although it's clear where these laws originated (can you say 'bible belt'),
I think that many are pretty silly. But hey, I hate the damn seat-belt law
too (especially after it just cost me an extra 15 bucks).
-Rob
-*-mum...@-*-netcom.com-*-
In article <01bc14b4$ac2e1020$4a17b8cd@falcon>,
Rob Rooney <rro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>in article <01bc14a6$442a97e0$1f2092cf@default>...
>> The Good
>> 1. I don't know the name of the actor who plays Eddington but he is
>pretty
>> damn good. Specifically while taunting Sisko in that opening exchange
>> between. It didn't have that Federation preachiness from SIsko, nor did
>it
>> have squirming justification from Eddington. It might have just been my
>> Maquis bias but I think it was prett obvious who won that little exchange
>
>Kenneth Marshall. He was the lead in 'Krull' back in the 80's as well as
>some other roles (although he did have more hair). I liked his performance
>as well. There is no doubt in my mind who really won the whole thing. The
>Maquis are still around, and now Eddington goes off to court-martial and
>probably 6 months to a year in prison, and then he's out again. I think he
>pretty much beat Sisko just about every way he could (and I don't mean that
>to say that Sisko was weak, but Eddington just plain beat him).
>
You're kidding... Krull?? I just saw a few minutes of it some hours before
FTU (it was rerunning on Cinemax or something) and didn't connect the face
at all. Wow.
--
Glenn Lamb - mum...@netcom.com -- Finger mum...@netcom.com for PGP Key.
PGPprint = E3 0F DE CC 94 72 D1 1A 2D 2E A9 08 6B A0 CD 82
Remove -*- before replying.
-*-mum...@-*-netcom.com-*-
In article <01bc14f1$820b8c40$ea2192cf@default>,
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
[snip]
>> >4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his
>little
>> >speech impediment.
>>
>> He doesn't have an impediment. It's acting.
>
>It is bad over acting
agreed... sheesh
>
><<snipped>>
>> >The Bad
>> >2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
>>
>> Not really. THe people aren't transparent.
>
>Well if they had done a straight rip it would have been pretty obvious and
>Lucas would declare war on PAramount who would send their rabid legal
>department after Lucasfilms who would counter attack with intercontinental
>ballistic barristers and from there it would get ugly
boy, wouldn't that be fun to watch? :)
>What I didn't get was the
>> fact that everyone was standing. Wouldn't they be sitting down in the
>> captain's chair or something? DO they see SIsko sitting down? That's
>> what bothered me.
>
>Well obviously they had a chair set up for him
The captain of the other ship said that Sisko appeared to be sitting on
his bride.
>
>> You have top rememebr just how far out there DS9 is.
>
>Can;t be that far. A runabout can make it to Earth and back inside of a
>week. There op warp is around 4 or 5. Warp 9 is at least 3 times as fast
>
> There was only
>> one IN RANGE.
>
>Why?
Someone else mentioned that once the Founders get tired of screwing around
and decide to attack, that's where it will come. Seems like StarFleet could
spare a few more ships for that area.
>
> Plus you also have the remember that the one ship out there
>> is the Defiant. That's more than enough to hold off most attacks until
>> help arrives.
>
>I seriously doubt that...
We've seen time and time again that this is obviously not true.
>
>> Not really. AVery Brooks at his best, I think.
>
>Well to each his own.
Indeed.. This was a good episode every moment that Sisko wasn't talking.
And note it's not necessarily his acting that is bad. The looks on his
face throughout the episode were in character (near the end, he really
did have the look of someone who had just lost it)... it's just the way
he speaks.
>
>> >5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had
>more
>> >technobabble than the Technical Manual.
>>
>> I didn't have a problem with it. It gives the perfect explanation
>> as to how Defiant is able to maintain her balance so effectively.
>
>There is no balance in space.
hehehe.. I was wondering about that too.. what the hell do they need gyros
for? So they'll know which way is up? Which was is up in space?
>
>> It also gave the chance for us to see how exactly involved it is to
>> run a starship. I mean, Defiant can be run with no more than 50 people.
>> Maybe even less if it had too. DId you see how packed the Bridge and
>> Engineering was? Everything had to be calibrated, etc. How else would
>> you explain this without technobabble.
>
>I did think it interesting that without most of the computer the bridge
>became far more active than usual
I've seen a few clips of bridge activity on naval ships, and heard stories
from a friend who was in the navy about just how active/jumbled everything
gets in there when they get busy (ie go into battle). It seemed like that.
>
>> >6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
>>
>> No where else to put it.
>
>Thats kind of the problem
What difference does it make where it is? It's not like someone's going
to appear behind Sisko without him knowing it and strangle him. Either a
connection has to be initiated/confirmed with the computer before someone
appears, or the thing makes a sound. Either way Sisko would be prepared.
>
>> >7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
>>
>> Not really. So what if there's reset button? You have a conflict,
>> then you have a resolution. How else are they supposed to do it?
>
>Well a reset button prevents real change and growth in a series of
>anything. If at the end of each novel in a series it ended the way it began
>and the next book told the same story only with a twist you would pretty
>mad huh? The resolution should have taken the story somewere. It didn't.
yes.. where did it take anyone? If Sisko gets in trouble for bombing the
maquis planet, we certainly won't see him be punished (I bet he still has
all four pips next week). We'll never see Eddington again. The only
continuity in this episode comes from the fact that it closes a problem
that's been open for a year now.
Drew Gilmore
: > >4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his
: little
: > >speech impediment.
: >
: > He doesn't have an impediment. It's acting.
: It is bad over acting
Am I the only one here who _likes_ it?
: What I didn't get was the
: > fact that everyone was standing. Wouldn't they be sitting down in the
: > captain's chair or something? DO they see SIsko sitting down? That's
: > what bothered me.
: Well obviously they had a chair set up for him
The captain whatsisname who first tested it said he saw Sisko sitting down
on his bridge and found it disconcerting. Guess Eddington likes to stand
when in command.
: > >5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had
: more
: > >technobabble than the Technical Manual.
: >
: > I didn't have a problem with it. It gives the perfect explanation
: > as to how Defiant is able to maintain her balance so effectively.
: There is no balance in space.
You know what he means... the gyros allow the ship to rock and swirve all
over the place with such accuracy. Didn't you see the thing narrowly miss
the lower pylon by tilting on a dime? Them's gyros working.
: > >6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
: >
: > No where else to put it.
: Thats kind of the problem
What would you prefer? They entirely redesign the bridge?
: > >7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
: >
: > Not really. So what if there's reset button? You have a conflict,
: > then you have a resolution. How else are they supposed to do it?
: Well a reset button prevents real change and growth in a series of
: anything. If at the end of each novel in a series it ended the way it began
: and the next book told the same story only with a twist you would pretty
: mad huh? The resolution should have taken the story somewere. It didn't.
It's only a reset button if they never mention it again. If Eddington
never returns, if Starfleet Command never chews Sisko out for his actions,
etc.. (though I bet it will be a light chewing since they now know how
important he is to the Bajorans. Anyone think Sisko would have done this
if the admiral in 'Rapture' hadn't told him they would have removed him
from command, but his being the Emissary prevented it? Looks like Ben's
got some leverage with Starfleed Command!
Drew
--
If it smells, it's biology.
If it blows up, it's chemistry. "SCIENCE RULES!!!"
If it doesn't work, it's PHYSICS! - Bill Nye the Science Guy
B.J.
Rob Rooney wrote:
> Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > 3. How the hell can SF, with the Klingons attacking, Changlings shifting,
> > and the Maquis 'maquis'ing can keep only two ships in the whole bloddy
> > sector.
> Definitely a good point here. However, it does seem a little common for
> ships to be 'the only ship in the sector' throughout Star Trek history. You
> would definitely think that Starfleet would have quite a few ships near
> DS9, since if the Dominion attack, that's where they'll first appear.
One point (Even thought I don't think the star dates fit) I think writers on
DS9 positioned First Contact in the span between "The Light and the Darkness"
and "The Begotten." If this is the case it may well explain why so few ships
were currently positioned in the sector. Just a thought.
Brad Stethem
-*-mumford-*-@-*-netcom.com-*- wrote in article
<mumfordE...@netcom.com>...
> >There is no balance in space.
>
> hehehe.. I was wondering about that too.. what the hell do they need gyros
> for? So they'll know which way is up? Which was is up in space?
Maybe that explains why ships are usually oriented the same way when they meet
in ST. The gyros on starships could be set to some standard.
> yes.. where did it take anyone? If Sisko gets in trouble for bombing the
> maquis planet, we certainly won't see him be punished (I bet he still has
> all four pips next week). We'll never see Eddington again. The only
> continuity in this episode comes from the fact that it closes a problem
> that's been open for a year now.
How do you know we'll never see Eddington again? Are you working for
Paramount? It wouldn't surprise me if he makes some sort of escape and comes
after Sisko.
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> : It is bad over acting
> Am I the only one here who _likes_ it?
I hope so
> : Well obviously they had a chair set up for him
>
> The captain whatsisname who first tested it said he saw Sisko sitting
down
> on his bridge and found it disconcerting. Guess Eddington likes to stand
> when in command.
So do I
> : There is no balance in space.
> You know what he means... the gyros allow the ship to rock and swirve all
> over the place with such accuracy. Didn't you see the thing narrowly
miss
> the lower pylon by tilting on a dime? Them's gyros working.
Ahhhhhhhhh Well I can't see why they choose to fly thru a obstacle course
> : > No where else to put it.
>
> : Thats kind of the problem
>
> What would you prefer? They entirely redesign the bridge?
Yes. Or not have it there at all.
> : > Not really. So what if there's reset button? You have a conflict,
> : > then you have a resolution. How else are they supposed to do it?
>
> : Well a reset button prevents real change and growth in a series of
> : anything. If at the end of each novel in a series it ended the way it
began
> : and the next book told the same story only with a twist you would
pretty
> : mad huh? The resolution should have taken the story somewere. It
didn't.
>
> It's only a reset button if they never mention it again. If Eddington
> never returns, if Starfleet Command never chews Sisko out for his
actions,
> etc.. (though I bet it will be a light chewing since they now know how
> important he is to the Bajorans. Anyone think Sisko would have done this
> if the admiral in 'Rapture' hadn't told him they would have removed him
> from command, but his being the Emissary prevented it? Looks like Ben's
> got some leverage with Starfleed Command!
Loos to me like he is one of the most important men in the quad.
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> That was definitely one bad-ass weapon! I always felt that this movie was
a
> bit under-rated. It had some elements of sci-fi and some fantasy elements
> that worked fairly well together (IMO).
I always wondered why they never made a sequel...
> Well, if anyone else in his command turns against him, he might just do
it
> a little early!
That would be wonderous
> Well, I might say that McCoy has quite a bit of wit and humor (especially
> when he's bickering with Spock), but Odo is definitely number one as far
as
> the current characters. I'd say that he and McCoy are pretty close (but
you
> might give it to Odo because he's had more episodes to be witty in).
I hadn't even thought of McCoy. Of all the characters he has always seemed
the most human...
> [snipped]
> > That's kind of my point. Why add more stuff.
>
> That's a good point. It really doesn't add that much to communications
(and
> I could certainly see quite a few times when you wouldn't want to be
seen).
Think about how 3-D the view screen looked in FC.
> I wonder if there is a reason why they added this, other than they
thought
> it would look 'neat'. I don't think it's a bad thing, but it really
doesn't
> seem necessary. But I really don't think that the Eddington-Sisko scenes
on
> the Defiant would have come out so well if we got the usual viewscreen
> conversation.
That is true. One must wonder if this is going to be the only episode they
use it in.
> > Another thing is that it kept them from having to use two other bridges
>
> Probably one of the reasons that they used it. But if they save a little
> money on this, it goes into something else, so that's not all bad.
> [snipped]
True. I hope they spend it on me. I need a car.
<<snipped>>
> > I suppose but we have always known Sisko is the single most emotional
> > captain when perturbed so I can't see it that way
>
> That's a good point. Actually, with this episode and Rapture, I think
that
> Sisko's done some things that he certainly wouldn't have done earlier in
> his tour at DS9. But I certainly see where you are coming from.
Good. Now explain it to me
> > I disagree here. I think that in The Begotten there was far more
> character
> > devlopment for Odo that there was for Sisko in this episode.
>
> Well, I won't argue with that. Odo definitely got more mileage out of his
> episode than Sisko. I think what made the Begotten less impressive to me
> was the Kira/O'Brien/Shakaar B-story. It really didn't work all that well
> for me, and I think that it has slightly colored my overall view of the
> episode. Uniform seemed like it was more focused, probably because it
> didn't have a B-story to distract you from the A-story.
I wonder why they put so many B-stories in lately...
> > I wonder how many high ranking officers have gone over to the Maquis.
So
> > far we have seen 3. Ro Laren, Chakotay(whom Janeway said had SF command
> > experience), and Eddington(the most impressive so far).
>
> Without a doubt. Don't forget about Ben's old friend Commander Cal Hudson
> from 'The Maquis'. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some dissent
> amongst the higher-ups and even the Federation Council.
CIVIL WAR. Yes, yes. Can you see it. Ds9 splitting from the Fed. Bajor
>
> [Snipped]
> > Well lets see. You are aware that oral sex and several other very
private
> > acts are actually on the books as illegal in SC . Living in NC I am
very
> > afraid that Strom Thurman is going to order an invasion to retake NC.
>
> Shhhhh! Don't tell everyone, we want it to be a surprise attack! And as
for
> certain laws - let's be glad that they don't always enforce every law!
Left up to the immortal(literally) Strom they would
> Although it's clear where these laws originated (can you say 'bible
belt'),
> I think that many are pretty silly. But hey, I hate the damn seat-belt
law
> too (especially after it just cost me an extra 15 bucks).
I often wonder how many times that law is broken a day. Then I take a cold
shower...
-*-mum...@-*-netcom.com-*-
In article <01bc1534$dda6a560$0102...@bstethem.chat.carleton.ca>,
Brad Stethem <bste...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>
>-*-mumford-*-@-*-netcom.com-*- wrote in article
><mumfordE...@netcom.com>...
>>
>> for? So they'll know which way is up? Which was is up in space?
>
>Maybe that explains why ships are usually oriented the same way when they meet
>in ST. The gyros on starships could be set to some standard.
>
>> yes.. where did it take anyone? If Sisko gets in trouble for bombing the
>> maquis planet, we certainly won't see him be punished (I bet he still has
>> all four pips next week). We'll never see Eddington again. The only
>> continuity in this episode comes from the fact that it closes a problem
>> that's been open for a year now.
>
>How do you know we'll never see Eddington again? Are you working for
>Paramount? It wouldn't surprise me if he makes some sort of escape and comes
>after Sisko.
>
Come after Sisko? Now why would he do a fool thing like that? his entire
claim throoughout the episode was that he held no grudge, felt no animosity
towards Sisko. It was Sisko picking the fight.
I'm *guessing* Eddington won't return for a couple of reasons. One: he
gave himself up. He knows if he gets loose again, Sisko will just go postal
again and start bombing maquis planets. Two: not enough time left in the
series. From what I've read, this is either the last or the next to last
season. Hopefully the producers/writers will be busy tying up the so many
other loose ends to unravel this loose end that's already been tied (huh?).
recook77
-*-mumford-*-@-*-netcom.com-*- wrote in article
<mumfordE...@netcom.com>...
>
> I'm *guessing* Eddington won't return for a couple of reasons. One: he
> gave himself up. He knows if he gets loose again, Sisko will just go
postal
> again and start bombing maquis planets. Two: not enough time left in the
> series. From what I've read, this is either the last or the next to last
> season.
I don't think that's the official word *yet*. At this point, nobody knows
what's going to happen.
Dr. Feelgood
Was anyone else thinking "To be continued" when they did the whole
pre-flight check scene on the defiant? It just reminded me of the
beginning of several ST movies. Seemed a little overblown for an episode,
maybe the new uniforms just got them pumped up...
Dr. Feelgood
Thought Sisko's performance was excellent, but my main problem with this
episode seems to be missing from this discussion.
>7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
Yes, treated as if it were simply a reset button. But Sisko made an entire
planet uninhabitable for 50 years. Poisoned the atmosphere when the
evacuation had started mere moments before he fired (or was it right
after, I forgot). Considering the probable loss of life, and the fact that
this entire Maquis conflict is based upon the handling of a mere handful
of such colonies, this was no simple thing. I kept waiting for the
explanation of how the Tri-lithium was faked, but it never came.
This would seem to play into Eddington's designs, making his sacrifice to
prevent further such actions a focus for hatred of the federation and
admiration for the Maquis in the future.
This is a crime of incredible proportions, yet no one but Eddington (who
is guilty of the same crime), seems to feel that way. They also do not
seem to believe the Federation will object. What the hell is going on?
Why is this perceived as a victory?
I'm hoping I missed something major, do not flame me too badly if I did,
I'll have to watch this show again on Sunday.
The Immortal X-Man
> >3. How the hell can SF, with the Klingons attacking, Changlings shifting,
> >and the Maquis 'maquis'ing can keep only two ships in the whole bloddy
> >sector.
>
Sorry just had to let myself be heard on this point and this point only.
The Klingons are on the other side of DS9 From sec. 001. The Maquis while
they have to come out of the wormhole aren't the primary concern with the
Klingons running loose and the Maquis are relatively weak and small
compared to a huge threat like the Dominon and the Klingon and Romulan
Empires (Well maybe the last one was overstepping it.) 2 is really all
they need. Besides if a full scale assault comes from teh Wormhole Rest
assured a fleet would be together just as fast as they were in FC and "The
Best of Both Worlds" from TNG. Besides they probably rotate ships and they
were on a weak rotation. Hell in a couple weeks the E-E might show up. Who
friggin knows what can happen in the Star Trek Universe.
--
Like a book amongst the many on the shelf
The Immortal X-Man
http://www.vaxxine.com/ouellem
or...@vaxxine.com
Matthew Murray
On 7 Feb 1997, Bryan E. Esquire wrote:
> >4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his little
> >speech impediment.
>
> He doesn't have an impediment. It's acting.
Well, you sure could have fooled me! (You know, I >never<
thought I would see the day when Terry Farrell was the best actor in a
scene!)
> >4. The acting in this episode bordered on the quality of Homeboy's in
> >Outerspace at one instance and in the next was onderful. At times I
> >wondered if half the actors got dime a minute rates to phone in their
> >performances.
>
> Not really. AVery Brooks at his best, I think.
<shudder> If that was his best, I'd sure hate to see his worst.
Oh, wait, I forgot. I >did< see "The Ship."
> >5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had more
> >technobabble than the Technical Manual.
>
> I didn't have a problem with it. It gives the perfect explanation
> as to how Defiant is able to maintain her balance so effectively.
> It also gave the chance for us to see how exactly involved it is to
> run a starship. I mean, Defiant can be run with no more than 50 people.
> Maybe even less if it had too. DId you see how packed the Bridge and
> Engineering was? Everything had to be calibrated, etc. How else would
> you explain this without technobabble.
Um, they wanted to show one shot of a starship moving outside of
the typical horizontal flight plane they almost always fly on? They
wanted to show off their... um... dazzling CGI capabilities? They wanted
to fill five minutes of an episode with barely a half hour's worth of
material with as much Treknobabble filler as possible?
To be fair, though. This was an okay episode--for DS9. Better
than some of the crap we've been subjected to this season, though the
Sisko/Eddington relationship fell flat and I didn't buy it from the
start. (And the boxing scene, which shows better than anything else why
Avery Brooks should >not< be on the show, didn't contribute to their
relationship at all. In fact, with such weak acting on Mr. Brooks' part,
it actually detracted from it.) I also thought the Les Miserables
parallel (if you can call it that) was extremely weak, and more than a
little forced. (I'm sure they could have found a better one--the
Valjean/Javert relationship is one that only transfers to Eddington and
Sisko on the most superficial of levels. Sisko doesn't embody the
fierce determination, the intense need and desire, and the almost
methodical insanity Javert would require, while Eddington simply
wasn't leveled enough to support the Valjean mold. While I am a fan of the
musical, for some reason, I find it much more likely that the writers
were basing their script more on that than on Victor Hugo's actual work.)
But, despite its unnecessary length, the stuff on the Defiant was
interesting, and I did appreciate their at least mentioning the Borg
thing. I have to give them credit for that, and am glad that Ira Steven
Behr didn't have his druthers. Still, I wish they would have made it a
part of the show itself, rather than just part of one episode like this.
It would have helped out tremendously. (I know I'm probably asking for
too much, but they made an effort, and I do admire that. It's more than
I thought they would do.)
The idea of the show was also good, and fairly interesting, but I
felt the intensity needed to be turned way, way up. It really seemed to
me like the stakes just weren't high enough to any of the characters. I
need to give the actor who portrayed Eddington credit--he did a fairly
good job with the material. Unfortunately, the material was weak, and
Eddington came off as distinctly one level, and I never believed the
actions he took, or his cause, for that matter. (But the whole Eddington
thing has been strained and forced from the beginning, so this probably
shouldn't be surprising.) Without anything really at stake, I found
myself not caring about much of anything that happened. Had the heat
been turned up, had the script pushed everything more in the direction
they started to go, and had it been more risk-taking and less safe, the
episode probably would have been pretty good.
But that is a problem I have with ST these days, and with DS9 in
particular. I really want to see the show take more risks. With this
episode, they had the opportunity for some real drama and emotion (they
needed to really rethink the Sisko/Eddington "relationship," though--it
just didn't work in the context they wanted it to), but they just stopped
before it really got interesting. Had Eddington's character been devoted
toward a real goal, a real objective, and if we had seen more of his side
of it, that would have helped. Had Sisko's motives been more clear, and
if he had possessed a stronger reason for the taking the actions he did,
that would have helped even more. But, in the end, the episode was just
safe. I don't like seeing ST be safe. It hasn't always been that way.
Safe television isn't always bad, but it gets tiresome after a while, and
I fear DS9 is really beginning to run its course in that regard. If,
just once, the writers would completely throw themselves into a script
and have it take as many risks as possible, utilizing everything that
makes the characters as potentially "tension-filled" as they supposedly
are, then we would have a great episode of DS9. "For the Uniform"
probably could have been that, but it wasn't. It could have been great,
but instead, it was okay. It could have been powerful. It could have
been dramatic. It could have been interesting. Unfortunately, it wasn't
any of those things. It was just safe.
===============================================================================
Matthew Murray - n964...@cc.wwu.edu - http://www.wwu.edu/~n9641343
===============================================================================
The script calls for fusing and using our smarts,
And greatness can come of the sum of our parts.
From now on, I'm with you--and with you is where I belong!
-David Zippel, City of Angels
===============================================================================
Michael Johnson
bas...@cats.ucsc.edu (Bryan E. Esquire) wrote:
> Definat is a worthy opponent and capable of putting down a small
>contingency of Klingon BOP's and a Vor'Cha.
You REALLY have to be kidding right? The Defiant a worthy opponent?
BULLSHIT. It is ATTACHED to the station ALL the time... simply drive
up in a cloaked ship and have someone on board the station attach
explosives to the couplers. Blow them and as it drifts away come out
of cloak and launch 10-20 proton torpedos at it before anyone can do
anything, after they are launched either immediately bail or send in
the fleet and say "Surrender or die". The moral... there are a good
10-20 flaws in the Defiant defense that would allow ANYBODY with
intelligence to take it out.
-MJ
cosc...@bayou.uh.edu
[Snipped some groups -- please be careful about where you crosspost]
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) (mal...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: The Good
: 1. I don't know the name of the actor who plays Eddington but he is pretty
: damn good. Specifically while taunting Sisko in that opening exchange
: between. It didn't have that Federation preachiness from SIsko, nor did it
: have squirming justification from Eddington. It might have just been my
: Maquis bias but I think it was prett obvious who won that little exchange
I too got the impression that Eddington won the exchange, and I believe
that the point of the show was to put him on the "winning" side so that
Sisko would have a lot to pay him back for. Indeed, for a good deal
(most) of the show, Sisko looked like the villain with Eddington
like an oppressed hero. I loved that twist.
: 2. TNG spent so many years avoiding Federation policy that it became a sore
: spot. Ds9 has slowly but surely revealing a goverment far from the
: PErfection that Both Kirk and Picard loved to gloat about. I love it
Again full agreement. I mean it doesn't matter how idealistic an
organization is, there will always be imperfections. The Federation
is no exception. People will suffer, and the scene with the refugees
was an excellent example of this.
: 3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
I can't quite remember what the reminder was. Would you mind
refreshing my memory?
: 4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his little
: speech impediment.
That was my favorite scene of just about any show I remember seeing.
It was so perfect. His rage was wonderful, and what he said
just hit the nail squarely on the head. I really felt a things
click with that scene.
: 5. They changed the effect for the Badlands. It looks more like a truly
: deadly sector.
I didn't notice all that much, but then I didn't care either. I was
too engrossed in everything else.
: The Bad
: 1. Is it just me
Uhhhhh... :)
: 2. Holocommunicator. Star Wars ripoff. Nuff said.
Well just because it's been done before with another show doesn't
make it a disadvantage. I kinda liked the Holocommunicator, although
I imagine I'd miss watching folks communicate via the viewscreen.
: 3. How the hell can SF, with the Klingons attacking, Changlings shifting,
: and the Maquis 'maquis'ing can keep only two ships in the whole bloddy
: sector.
Good point. IMO a minor quibble, but still valid. Here's my take
on the matter (feel free to correct any of my facts):
1) While the Klingons aren't exactly on the best of terms,
it isn't exactly war either. I'd imagine that Starfleet
decided that the Klingons wouldn't attack unless things
broke down, and if they did they would rush in in time.
Also an increase in force might ruin what chances of
reconciliation Starfleet has with the Klingons.
2) As for the Dominion -- they seem to be more than a match
for Starfleet. Any ships they put in there would surely
be cannon fodder and I imagine that they know this. So
keep the ships where they actually have a chance (in other
trouble zones) and if an attack comes there's always
collapsing the wormhole.
3) The Marquis seem to be best fought with deception and
infiltration rather than large forces. Their very
nature gives them an advantage against larger vessels,
so again it would seem useless to station numerous
ships in the area.
BTW, why is Starfleet so up on the Marquis' case, when they are
after the Cardassians? I know they are supposedly trying to
get in good with the Cardassians, but shouldn't they just let
the Cardassians worry about the Marquis, or are they afraid of
relations going down the tube if they aren't dealt with?
: 4. The acting in this episode bordered on the quality of Homeboy's in
: Outerspace at one instance and in the next was onderful. At times I
: wondered if half the actors got dime a minute rates to phone in their
: performances.
I didn't mind the acting, although Dax got to me. I don't know
if she's supposed to be that way, but it seems like everything
she says is phony and patronizing. Even in "Looking for Par Mach...",
those lines she spoke to Worf in the end seemed so phony.
Another amusing thing is that she walked funny in that episode.
Maybe being a symbiant she can't quite deal with a humanoid
body too well?
: 5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had more
: technobabble than the Technical Manual.
But it was well placed.
: 6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
Well someone already answered this quite well by saying that it was
the only place on the ship where it could be conviently placed
without getting in the way.
: 7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
On the contrary, the ending was anything but reset buttonish. That
bombing the planet with trilithium, that was for real and it was
without Starfleet's permission. There was no "oh that was a
modified tachyon pulse" mumbo jumbo, this was for real and it
left an indellible mark on the Captain for doing it. The
Cardassian worlds that were poisoned -- that was for real.
The way Marquis will feel about Starfleet for what they perceive
as attempted genocide -- that is for real.
I *LOVED* the ending as it represented the few times (I noticed)
where something controversial occurred and wasn't immediately
undone. I thought that the trilithium would be a scam, but
it wasn't, and that made all the difference in the world.
: 8. Overall a mediocre episode. IT has its high points(Worf and Kira's
: expressions when Sisko flipped) but..... the lows were really low(Sisko
: doing anything that required supposedly normal speech.
I'd give the show an A+. I loved it that much. Everything was
so well done. Sisko (the good guy) was possessed by a desire
for revenge and did something evil to get it while his nemesis
(the villain) was (toward Sisko anyway) very moral and sympathetic.
Indeed, I didn't know who to side with, and that sort of blur
between right and wrong is a great thing to have, it adds in
depth. The humor was excellent, as well as the manual control
of the Defiant. This show worked on many levels, and I'm drooling
in anticipation of the next one.
: 9. There wasn't very much to this episode. I get the feeling it was a place
: filler between Odo's return to normal and The Dominion's attack next week.
I felt this was more than a filler. Something substantial happened
here, something lasting. Just because it didn't involve the
Dominion doesn't make it a filler. More info on characters was
revealed (Sisko's "Dark Side"), and an important issue -- the Marquis
and what the Federation sacrificed for "peace" with the Cardassians
was more deeply explored. It was anything but filler.
: The Cronan
: 1. I will never ever ever be able to accept bald and balding men in the
: 24th and half centtury. Next thing you know Sisko is going to believe it
: when Cassidy says, "Size doesn't matter."
As much as it surprises me, the fact that the villain was
balding did bother me as well for the exact same reason. Heck,
today we have Monoxodil, by the 24th century they should have
something even more (genetic engineering to eliminate the
"balding" gene). Of course this was an issue since Picard.
: 2. Everyone says it. Noone knows why. Brooks' enunciation. I have a theory.
: There is a tribble under his upper lip you see, a very furry and
: incontinent tribble.
*ROFL* I like his enunciation. There's something about the way
he speaks. Not quite nobility, perhaps refinement, but something.
: 3. How many screamed "GEORGE" when the Melenchei's captain first appeared.
Not me. Explanation?
: 4. Brooks' voice allows him to effectively portray a Klingon or a Villian
: with ease. The problem is he plays a SF captain.
I like his voice. Deep, elegant, yet forceful when need be. This
is a fighting captain, not a beauracratic wuss like Picard.
: 5. Voyager used the tired old everyone wants to do stuff illegal in South
: Carolina plot and Ds9 used the tired old betrayal/revenge plot. I usually
: prefer the latter unfortunately Voyager did a better job. The real sticky
: thing is why they did a better job. Was it the acting? no. Was it the
: directing? Writing? No on both counts. So what was it. LESS CLOTHING and
: MORE VIOLENCE. Think about it.
*Chuckle*
DS9 has it where it counts -- The Execution. It executes its
shows superbly, fluently mixing in humor and drama, moral dilemma
and fun. It works because its execution is so superb. The
characters are also well done, and the plots are not rehashed,
or at least not as rehashed as Voyager.
Which brings us to Voyager. Voyager fails on many levels,
not the least of which is The Execution. Execution is
miserable, the plots are extremely old, and the characters
are just so unsympathetic it's disgusting.
This is extremely important when you consider that Voyager had
the advantage of a setting that would have opened up an entire
world of possibilities for plot. Here's a starship that's
stranded light years away from home, in an unknown place. There's
so much that could have happened, yet this wasn't realized and
what ensued was and still is a farce.
Compare it with DS9 which should have been at a serious disadvantage.
Here's a show where there's no mobility, it's a space station that's
stuck in one place! Yet because of superb writing and execution
this is not a disadvantage at all, and the show works wonderfully
in spite of this -- or maybe because of it. The writers used what
they had effectively while Voyager squandered it.
Wow, a review turned into a DS9 vs. Voyager! BTW, I think DS9
trashes TNG as well, but not quite TOS.
--
Cya,
Ahmed
How could hell be any worse?
"Fuck Armageddon this is Hell" by Bad Religion
Kyle Haight
In article <01bc150e$55d85e60$4117b8cd@falcon>,
Rob Rooney <rro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> > > 6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
>
>I could certainly see quite a few times when you wouldn't want to be seen).
>I wonder if there is a reason why they added this, other than they thought
>it would look 'neat'.
My first guess was budgetary. Maybe it costs less to do the one
quick "blip in" at the start of a conversation and "blip out" at
the end than it does to film the two sides of the conversation
separately and matte them together (as is necessary with the
traditional viewscreen).
With the "3D" thing, the bulk of the film is just straight-shooting --
two guys standing in a room, one of them inside a glowing stripe.
Cheap.
--
Kyle Haight
kha...@netcom.com
"We are mice, posting to Usenet in the first stages of a complex plan
to Take Over The WORLD!"
Kyle Haight
In article <dontthrowthatspam...@coatppp19.lanminds.com>,
Dr. Feelgood <dontthro...@me.com> wrote:
>
>This is a crime of incredible proportions, yet no one but Eddington (who
>is guilty of the same crime), seems to feel that way. They also do not
>seem to believe the Federation will object. What the hell is going on?
>
>Why is this perceived as a victory?
>
>I'm hoping I missed something major, do not flame me too badly if I did,
>I'll have to watch this show again on Sunday.
There was a brief mention that the population of the two planets
that were bombed swapped places, so there was no long-term problem.
Kyle
-*-mum...@-*-netcom.com-*-
In article <5dgljl$3...@Masala.CC.UH.EDU>,
cosc...@bayou.uh.edu <cosc...@Bayou.UH.EDU> wrote:
>
>: 3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
>
>I can't quite remember what the reminder was. Would you mind
>refreshing my memory?
(probably not exact)
Odo (to Sisko): When you speak to starfleet about this, be sure to remind
them that they placed Eddington here because they didn't trust me.
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> Sorry just had to let myself be heard on this point and this point only.
> The Klingons are on the other side of DS9 From sec. 001.
Appearently not or how did they invade Cardassia and keep showing up all
the time..
The Maquis while
> they have to come out of the wormhole aren't the primary concern with the
> Klingons running loose and the Maquis are relatively weak and small
> compared to a huge threat like the Dominon and the Klingon and Romulan
> Empires (Well maybe the last one was overstepping it.)
Are you kidding? The Maquis know way more about SF than the fleet knows
about them. Think about. SOme of the pride of their officer core have gone
over. At least one person who had advanced tactile training(RO) and one who
had in depth knowledge of the fleets defenses around the DMZ(eddington)
2 is really all
> they need.
Against the Dominion?
Besides if a full scale assault comes from teh Wormhole Rest
> assured a fleet would be together just as fast as they were in FC and
"The
> Best of Both Worlds" from TNG.
Yeah but by then the Dominion could have afar larger fleet thorugh the
wormhole.
Besides they probably rotate ships and they
> were on a weak rotation. Hell in a couple weeks the E-E might show up.
Who
> friggin knows what can happen in the Star Trek Universe.
Weeks too long. In a couple of weeks you could fortify Ds9 and make it your
own while insuring the Federation could not destroy your line of supply.
Michael Allan Thomson
Matthew Murray wrote:
> than some of the crap we've been subjected to this season, though the
> Sisko/Eddington relationship fell flat and I didn't buy it from the
> start. (And the boxing scene, which shows better than anything else why
> Avery Brooks should >not< be on the show, didn't contribute to their
> relationship at all. In fact, with such weak acting on Mr. Brooks' part,
I found the boxing scene to be the best part of the episode. We got
down to the reason Sisko was so driven. He took it personally.
Mike
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
<<snipped>>
> : 3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
>
> I can't quite remember what the reminder was. Would you mind
> refreshing my memory?
"Captain, have you reminded SF that they assigned Eddington here because
they didn't trust me?"
"No"
"Please do"
<<snipped points of agreement>>
> I didn't mind the acting, although Dax got to me. I don't know
> if she's supposed to be that way, but it seems like everything
> she says is phony and patronizing. Even in "Looking for Par Mach...",
> those lines she spoke to Worf in the end seemed so phony.
A lot of the lines seemed that way
> Another amusing thing is that she walked funny in that episode.
> Maybe being a symbiant she can't quite deal with a humanoid
> body too well?
I think she might have had a tribble someplace. They sneak about don't ya'
know.
> : 5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had
more
> : technobabble than the Technical Manual.
>
> But it was well placed.
Doesn't matter. Unnessecary.
<<snipped>>
> : 7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
>
> On the contrary, the ending was anything but reset buttonish. That
> bombing the planet with trilithium, that was for real and it was
> without Starfleet's permission.
But it is now unihabitable by humans. Not Cardassians. They made that
clear. The Cardies can't live on that planet Eddington bombed but humans
can and vice versa for Sisko's bombing
There was no "oh that was a
> modified tachyon pulse" mumbo jumbo, this was for real and it
> left an indellible mark on the Captain for doing it.
No it didn't. The planet is still habitable by Cardies
The
> Cardassian worlds that were poisoned -- that was for real.
> The way Marquis will feel about Starfleet for what they perceive
> as attempted genocide -- that is for real.
They traded planets. No biggie
> I *LOVED* the ending as it represented the few times (I noticed)
> where something controversial occurred and wasn't immediately
> undone.
It was too. Watch it again They specifically say the CArdassians are moving
to the former Maquis planet.....
I thought that the trilithium would be a scam, but
> it wasn't, and that made all the difference in the world.
It WAS the reset button
> I'd give the show an A+. I loved it that much.
And what would you give Macrocosm?
Everything was
> so well done. Sisko (the good guy) was possessed by a desire
> for revenge and did something evil to get it while his nemesis
> (the villain) was (toward Sisko anyway) very moral and sympathetic.
> Indeed, I didn't know who to side with, and that sort of blur
> between right and wrong is a great thing to have, it adds in
> depth. The humor was excellent, as well as the manual control
> of the Defiant. This show worked on many levels, and I'm drooling
> in anticipation of the next one.
Can't say I agree.
> I felt this was more than a filler. Something substantial happened
> here, something lasting.
They reset all that may have been substantial at the end
Just because it didn't involve the
> Dominion doesn't make it a filler.
it does when nothing happens of substance
More info on characters was
> revealed (Sisko's "Dark Side"), and an important issue -- the Marquis
> and what the Federation sacrificed for "peace" with the Cardassians
> was more deeply explored. It was anything but filler.
Look at again. You seem to be missing that SIsko said the balance was
restored. That is resetish if I ever heard it.
> As much as it surprises me, the fact that the villain was
> balding did bother me as well for the exact same reason. Heck,
> today we have Monoxodil, by the 24th century they should have
> something even more (genetic engineering to eliminate the
> "balding" gene). Of course this was an issue since Picard.
It gets worse as more and more bald guys apear.
> *ROFL* I like his enunciation. There's something about the way
> he speaks. Not quite nobility, perhaps refinement, but something.
More like constipation .....
> : 3. How many screamed "GEORGE" when the Melenchei's captain first
appeared.
>
> Not me. Explanation?
ALien Nation. He plaed George Fransico.
> : 4. Brooks' voice allows him to effectively portray a Klingon or a
Villian
> : with ease. The problem is he plays a SF captain.
>
> I like his voice. Deep, elegant, yet forceful when need be. This
> is a fighting captain, not a beauracratic wuss like Picard.
I hated the french guy with an English accent but the southern baptist
captain is far worse.
<<snipped>>
Rob Rooney
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
in article <01bc1544$d8ce7620$160392cf@default>...
> > > I wonder how many high ranking officers have gone over to the Maquis.
> So
> > > far we have seen 3. Ro Laren, Chakotay(whom Janeway said had SF
command
> > > experience), and Eddington(the most impressive so far).
> >
> > Without a doubt. Don't forget about Ben's old friend Commander Cal
Hudson
> > from 'The Maquis'. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some dissent
> > amongst the higher-ups and even the Federation Council.
>
> CIVIL WAR. Yes, yes. Can you see it. Ds9 splitting from the Fed. Bajor
But if DS9 did break off from the Federation, I think that cries of foul
would be heard from the B5 fans over how it was similar to what happened on
B5.
However, the potential for Civil war is there. I think that the Federation
has bigger problems that are keeping it from really settling the Maquis
issue once and for all. With the Borg invasion, the potential for Dominion
invasion and the on-again off-again war with the Klingons, I think that the
Maquis are pretty low on the totem pole. And the Cardassians have way too
many problems to worry about them (especially with what's coming next
week).
-Rob
Rob Rooney
Kyle Haight <kha...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<khaightE...@netcom.com>...
> In article <01bc150e$55d85e60$4117b8cd@falcon>,
> Rob Rooney <rro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > > 6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU???
Huh?
> >
> >That's a good point. It really doesn't add that much to communications
(and
> >I could certainly see quite a few times when you wouldn't want to be
seen).
> >I wonder if there is a reason why they added this, other than they
thought
> >it would look 'neat'.
>
> My first guess was budgetary. Maybe it costs less to do the one
> quick "blip in" at the start of a conversation and "blip out" at
> the end than it does to film the two sides of the conversation
> separately and matte them together (as is necessary with the
> traditional viewscreen).
>
> With the "3D" thing, the bulk of the film is just straight-shooting --
> two guys standing in a room, one of them inside a glowing stripe.
> Cheap.
I'm sure that there are budgetary reasons behind it. But I don't mind if
they save a little here and use it for something else. Besides, having the
actors together to play off of each other does add a little to the scene
(IMO).
-Rob
Rob Rooney
B.J. <no...@none.net> wrote in article <32FBB7...@none.net>...
> Rob Rooney wrote:
>
>
> > Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) <mal...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>
>
> > > 3. How the hell can SF, with the Klingons attacking, Changlings
shifting,
> > > and the Maquis 'maquis'ing can keep only two ships in the whole
bloddy
> > > sector.
>
>
> > Definitely a good point here. However, it does seem a little common for
> > ships to be 'the only ship in the sector' throughout Star Trek history.
You
> > would definitely think that Starfleet would have quite a few ships near
> > DS9, since if the Dominion attack, that's where they'll first appear.
> One point (Even thought I don't think the star dates fit) I think writers
on
> DS9 positioned First Contact in the span between "The Light and the
Darkness"
> and "The Begotten." If this is the case it may well explain why so few
ships
> were currently positioned in the sector. Just a thought.
That's definitely a possibility. The Maquis aren't number one on the
Starfleet most wanted list. It doesn't really make sense for there to only
be one ship attached to DS9 though. It is definitely a hotbed of activity,
being on the border of Fed and Cardy space, and with the wormhole (being
the first place the Dominion will go). It just seems like the area around
DS9 isn't as highly patrolled as I would expect it to be.
-Rob
Brad Stethem
-*-mumford-*-@-*-netcom.com-*- wrote in article
<mumfordE...@netcom.com>...
> Come after Sisko? Now why would he do a fool thing like that? his entire
> claim throoughout the episode was that he held no grudge, felt no animosity
> towards Sisko. It was Sisko picking the fight.
True, but that doesn't mean he's not going to be pissed off. He might see
killing Sisko as a great thing for the Maquis. Especially after what he did to
that planet. If he sees Sisko as enough of a threat to the cause, there's no
telling what he might do.
> I'm *guessing* Eddington won't return for a couple of reasons. One: he
> gave himself up. He knows if he gets loose again, Sisko will just go postal
> again and start bombing maquis planets. Two: not enough time left in the
> series. From what I've read, this is either the last or the next to last
> season. Hopefully the producers/writers will be busy tying up the so many
> other loose ends to unravel this loose end that's already been tied (huh?)
Those are all pretty good reasons. I just reacted that way because I thought
you were perpetuating the myth that DS9 can't carry a story for more than an
episode or two. However, if they can wrap up the Dominion situation this
season, that leaves all of next year for local stuff like the Maquis. Maybe
even longer if they can sign the actors to longer contracts, and if Paramount
wants to go on. Personally, I'd be perfectly happy if they'd cancel Voyager
and give us another 2 (or more) seasons of DS9.
-*-mum...@-*-netcom.com-*-
In article <01bc1596$852fa0a0$2417b8cd@falcon>,
In this particular instance, having the actors together to play off each
other added a *LOT* to the scene (IMO :) . Let's wait and see how well
they do with it when it really doesn't fit so well into the scene. Btw,
does this mean that every ship out there that communicates with the Defiant
will either use audio-only or have one of these onion-rings (uh, holo-rings)?
What about when they meet the Klingons, or the Cardassians, or the Dominion?
Did they take a cue from the Feds and install them as well?
-*-mum...@-*-netcom.com-*-
In article <01bc1581$faa7d9c0$0102...@bstethem.chat.carleton.ca>,
Brad Stethem <bste...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>
>-*-mumford-*-@-*-netcom.com-*- wrote in article
><mumfordE...@netcom.com>...
>> Come after Sisko? Now why would he do a fool thing like that? his entire
>> claim throoughout the episode was that he held no grudge, felt no animosity
>> towards Sisko. It was Sisko picking the fight.
>
>True, but that doesn't mean he's not going to be pissed off. He might see
>killing Sisko as a great thing for the Maquis. Especially after what he did to
>that planet. If he sees Sisko as enough of a threat to the cause, there's no
>telling what he might do.
Actually, there's another reason. The maquis have not "officially" drawn
the Feds into their situation. Sure they've raided a few transports and
picked on the Cardassians (and the Feds have responded because of the
treaty with the Cardassians). However, if Eddington were to escape and
then _murder_ Sisko, you can bet the Feds will get involved then--as well
as the Bajorans ("they killed our Emissary!")
>> I'm *guessing* Eddington won't return for a couple of reasons. One: he
>> gave himself up. He knows if he gets loose again, Sisko will just go postal
>> again and start bombing maquis planets. Two: not enough time left in the
>> series. From what I've read, this is either the last or the next to last
>> season. Hopefully the producers/writers will be busy tying up the so many
>> other loose ends to unravel this loose end that's already been tied (huh?)
>
>Those are all pretty good reasons. I just reacted that way because I thought
>you were perpetuating the myth that DS9 can't carry a story for more than an
>episode or two. However, if they can wrap up the Dominion situation this
>season, that leaves all of next year for local stuff like the Maquis. Maybe
>even longer if they can sign the actors to longer contracts, and if Paramount
>wants to go on. Personally, I'd be perfectly happy if they'd cancel Voyager
>and give us another 2 (or more) seasons of DS9.
>
I'd be happy if Voyager were dropped as well :).
An interesting plot twist would be for something to happen that requires
Sisko to pull Eddington out of prison and use him (a la how Paris was used
by Janeway, but I would hope in a more believable fashion). Because of the
history between Eddington and Sisko, there would be a *LOT* more friction
than was even hinted at between Janeway and Paris. Interesting character
development for Sisko would be for him to forgive Eddington (for one reason
or another).
btw, I think longer contracts are out of the question. At least for Avery
Brooks.. from what I've read, he hates Star Trek.
Bryan E. Esquire
In article <01bc14f1$820b8c40$ea2192cf@default>,>Sisko was beaten rather soundly by Eddinton I thought. Not only did he beat
>him tactically he beat him philisophically.
But Sisko eventually caught on to his game.
>Not until the very last season and even then Picard continued to insist the
>Federation is perfect. We are benevolence personified and so on
But everything was set up in TNG for all the events to take place
in DS9 and VOY.
>> DS9 has always been a little more politically inclined than TNG.
>That is one of the better aspects, yes.
Allows for more sophisticated storytelling.
>Can;t be that far. A runabout can make it to Earth and back inside of a
>week. There op warp is around 4 or 5. Warp 9 is at least 3 times as fast
Ds9 is at the far reaches of Federation space. It takes quite a
while for a ship to get there.
> There was only
>> one IN RANGE.
>Why?
The Maquis aren't considered that big of a threat. Second of all,
you can't show a big force of ships in that area because of the volatility
of that portion of space. There are also better things to do around the
Federation.
>I seriously doubt that...
Definat is a worthy opponent and capable of putting down a small
contingency of Klingon BOP's and a Vor'Cha.
>> I didn't have a problem with it. It gives the perfect explanation
>> as to how Defiant is able to maintain her balance so effectively.
>There is no balance in space.
There has to be some sort of control over the ship. Otherwise, you
go out spinning every which way, like the Defiant was doing before Dax
regained the ship's balance.
>I did think it interesting that without most of the computer the bridge
>became far more active than usual
Much like the original Trek Series. More people on the bridge,
people shouting orders to engage thrusters, release docking clamps, the
umbilical cord, etc.
>> >6. Why in all hell would put the holocommunicator BEHIND YOU??? Huh?
>> No where else to put it.
>Thats kind of the problem
Well, let's see. The Defiant bridge is smaller than the 1701-D's
battle bridge. There just isn't space. I just don't understand why the
holocommunicator is even necessary. Oh well...
>> Not really. So what if there's reset button? You have a conflict,
>> then you have a resolution. How else are they supposed to do it?
>Well a reset button prevents real change and growth in a series of
>anything. If at the end of each novel in a series it ended the way it began
>and the next book told the same story only with a twist you would pretty
>mad huh? The resolution should have taken the story somewere. It didn't.
Well, we never really complained about that in TNG, did we? Only
now. Why? I don't really care about the reset button. It brings the
story back to some sort of resolution. Eddington has been caught, but
at what cost? The destruction of a planetary atmosphere? Possible
repurcussions from the Federation? I just don't think that you can leave
people hanging. If the Paramount writers did do that, then you can be
absolutely sure that someone on this newsgroup is going to bitch about the
story not being resolved and how all the people were to survive on a
poinsoned planet, etc.
--
Marc Escuro [R] They reach into your room,
Bryan E. Esquire Just feel their gentle touch.
bas...@cats.ucsc.edu When all hope is gone, you know
http://www2.ucsc.edu/~bashir/ Sad Songs say so much
Dwight Williams
Victor W. Wong (ah...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> Dr. Feelgood (dontthro...@me.com) writes:
>> Thought Sisko's performance was excellent, but my main problem with this
>> episode seems to be missing from this discussion.
>>
>>>7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
>>
>> Yes, treated as if it were simply a reset button. But Sisko made an entire
>> planet uninhabitable for 50 years. Poisoned the atmosphere when the
>> evacuation had started mere moments before he fired (or was it right
>> after, I forgot). Considering the probable loss of life, and the fact that
>> this entire Maquis conflict is based upon the handling of a mere handful
>> of such colonies, this was no simple thing. I kept waiting for the
>> explanation of how the Tri-lithium was faked, but it never came.
>>
>> This would seem to play into Eddington's designs, making his sacrifice to
>> prevent further such actions a focus for hatred of the federation and
>> admiration for the Maquis in the future.
>
> Hardly. Remember, Eddington did the same thing to Cardassian colonies,
> rendering them unfit for Cardassian occupation. In the end the colonists
> wound up trading places--the former Maquis colony is now inhabited by the
> displaced Cardassian survivors.
>>
>> This is a crime of incredible proportions, yet no one but Eddington (who
>> is guilty of the same crime), seems to feel that way. They also do not
>> seem to believe the Federation will object. What the hell is going on?
>>
>> Why is this perceived as a victory?
>
> 1. Remember that Sisko gave fair warning to the Maquis that he would
> poison their colony, and did so in plenty of time for negotiation or
> ordered evacuation. That the Maquis chose not to believe him is
> hardly his fault.
>
> 2. Also remember that the colony is identified as a "Maquis" colony, not
> a Federation colony. Sisko did not attack Federation citizens here;
> he attacked someone he already declared "an enemy of the Federation."
>
> 3. Bear in mind that Eddington et al. subscribe to the image of Starfleet
> as "boy scouts" or UN peacekeepers. It's a rare time that the Maquis
> get reminded that the Feds can get rough.
(Interesting comparison of Starfleet to the UN peacekeepers. Do you
remember the same Southam newspapers TV review of DS9: "Emissary" that I
do, with Sisko being compared to Gen. Lewis McKenzie, CF during the
latter's tour at Sarajevo with UNPROFOR?)
That aside...I still find the actions of both sides of this episode to be
extremely troubling. Hence my call for courts-martial for both Eddington
and Sisko. Preferably in the same episode. If that means it gets to be a
two-parter, I can live with it.
We need to see the fall-out from this one, IMHO.
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Paul D. Pritchard
Whatever.
cosc...@bayou.uh.edu
: > : 3. Odo's little reminder to Sisko was classic.
: >
: > I can't quite remember what the reminder was. Would you mind
: > refreshing my memory?
: "Captain, have you reminded SF that they assigned Eddington here because
: they didn't trust me?"
: "No"
: "Please do"
Ok gotcha -- thanks for reminding me (or telling me) :)
[Snip]
: > Another amusing thing is that she walked funny in that episode.
: > Maybe being a symbiant she can't quite deal with a humanoid
: > body too well?
: I think she might have had a tribble someplace. They sneak about don't ya'
: know.
*ROFL*
Stop with those tribbles man!
: > : 5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had
: more
: > : technobabble than the Technical Manual.
: >
: > But it was well placed.
: Doesn't matter. Unnessecary.
I don't agree. They were working on manually controlling the ship so
it was necessary. Now that part with manual control did go on for a
tad too long, but IMO it was still well placed and necessary (if a
little overdone).
: <<snipped>>
: > : 7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
: >
: > On the contrary, the ending was anything but reset buttonish. That
: > bombing the planet with trilithium, that was for real and it was
: > without Starfleet's permission.
: But it is now unihabitable by humans. Not Cardassians. They made that
: clear. The Cardies can't live on that planet Eddington bombed but humans
: can and vice versa for Sisko's bombing
Yes but it still doesn't change the fact that Sisko released a fatal
agent into a planet inhabited by humans. A reset is when it turns
out that this wasn't trilithium or all this happened in a modified
timeline.
: There was no "oh that was a
: > modified tachyon pulse" mumbo jumbo, this was for real and it
: > left an indellible mark on the Captain for doing it.
: No it didn't. The planet is still habitable by Cardies
But the humans had to be evacuated. Clearly this is of great
importance. Furthermore, the way Sisko appears is of tremendous
importance. Now we see a Captain, who out of lust for revenge
poisoned an entire planet of humans to capture one man. This
puts Sisko in an entirely different light. We've seen the vengeful,
obsessive side of Sisko.
: The
: > Cardassian worlds that were poisoned -- that was for real.
: > The way Marquis will feel about Starfleet for what they perceive
: > as attempted genocide -- that is for real.
: They traded planets. No biggie
Having a person release deadly materials in your atmosphere so that
you have to haul ass is a biggie. Ok, so maybe no one died (who
knows), but the fact remains that what seems like attempted
genocide occurred.
: > I *LOVED* the ending as it represented the few times (I noticed)
: > where something controversial occurred and wasn't immediately
: > undone.
: It was too. Watch it again They specifically say the CArdassians are moving
: to the former Maquis planet.....
Yes but again this move has consequences. The Marquis have been usurped
yet again. Not only did the Cardassians dislodge them, but then
Starfleet pulled the same stunt, with attempted mass murder.
: I thought that the trilithium would be a scam, but
: > it wasn't, and that made all the difference in the world.
: It WAS the reset button
Well I can only say I disagree. I'd say that the main problem
was the lack of consequences from Starfleet. One would imagine
they'd get on Sisko's back for his little stunt.
To me a reset button is something that undoes most of the progress
made in the episode. For instance, when DS9 first encountered
the Dominion, there was a big fight, and the wormhole collapsed
and then *WHAMMO* it was all some mind probe, it never happened.
Now *THAT* was a reset button.
This episode however was not. We had Eddington running loose, he
was captured. We had Marquis hiding out on a planet, they were
ousted. We had the grave actions of the Captain -- they remained.
We had the Cardassians ousted from a planet -- they remained.
Things changed, that is far from a reset button.
: > I'd give the show an A+. I loved it that much.
: And what would you give Macrocosm?
Refresh my memory, what was Macrocosm about again? It's pretty
rare when I pay attention to a show's title, I've only done so
very recently.
[Snip]
: > I felt this was more than a filler. Something substantial happened
: > here, something lasting.
: They reset all that may have been substantial at the end
By the end of the show, the state of the scene had changed. Hardly
a reset.
: Just because it didn't involve the
: > Dominion doesn't make it a filler.
: it does when nothing happens of substance
Capturing a rebel, revealing that the hero has an extremely obsessive,
perhaps even EVIL side, and juggling people on planets does not
count as substance?
: More info on characters was
: > revealed (Sisko's "Dark Side"), and an important issue -- the Marquis
: > and what the Federation sacrificed for "peace" with the Cardassians
: > was more deeply explored. It was anything but filler.
: Look at again. You seem to be missing that SIsko said the balance was
: restored. That is resetish if I ever heard it.
Well again disagreement.
: > As much as it surprises me, the fact that the villain was
: > balding did bother me as well for the exact same reason. Heck,
: > today we have Monoxodil, by the 24th century they should have
: > something even more (genetic engineering to eliminate the
: > "balding" gene). Of course this was an issue since Picard.
: It gets worse as more and more bald guys apear.
Yup. At least with a few you might think that they don't give
a crap, or that they are pathological cases of balding that
can't be cured. But after a while...
:
: > *ROFL* I like his enunciation. There's something about the way
: > he speaks. Not quite nobility, perhaps refinement, but something.
: More like constipation .....
He'd have to be more strained.
: > : 3. How many screamed "GEORGE" when the Melenchei's captain first
: appeared.
: >
: > Not me. Explanation?
: ALien Nation. He plaed George Fransico.
So that's where I saw him! Yes, GEORGE! Ok, thanks a ton for
clearing that up as well.
: > : 4. Brooks' voice allows him to effectively portray a Klingon or a
: Villian
: > : with ease. The problem is he plays a SF captain.
: >
: > I like his voice. Deep, elegant, yet forceful when need be. This
: > is a fighting captain, not a beauracratic wuss like Picard.
: I hated the french guy with an English accent but the southern baptist
: captain is far worse.
Well again disagreement. I'm a fan of the Kirkian school of Captainry.
You try diplomacy, and when that fails, a few photon torpedoes up the
ass, which almost inevitably fails, but at least you tried. That's
Benjamin Sisko. He's the most charming guy in the quadrant but
when you start pulling crap, he'll take you on and hand your ass
back to you. Contrast this was Knees O' Lard Picard who spends
his time trying to look up Crusher's pants and drinking his Earl
Grey Tea while the structural integrity fields slowly collapse
around him.
--
Cya,
Ahmed
I kinda like my sister's friends,
Keep 'em fresh in the fridge.
"I Killed Mommy" by the Dayglo Abortions
TWuG
Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote in response to a post
by Bryan E. Esquire
<much snipping>
> I also thought the Les Miserables parallel (if you can call it that)
was extremely >weak, and more than a little forced. (I'm sure they could
have found a better >one--the Valjean/Javert relationship is one that only
transfers to Eddington and
>Sisko on the most superficial of levels. Sisko doesn't embody the fierce
>determination, the intense need and desire, and the almost methodical
insanity >Javert would require, while Eddington simply wasn't leveled
enough to support the >Valjean mold.
The point isn't whether Sisko fits the Javert mold. Eddington is
obssessed with these characters and has projected the Javert mold onto
Sisko. Sisko was Javert only in Eddington's mind, and Eddington felt that
he was Valjean, that doesn't mean he fits the mold, just that he "thinks"
he fits the mold.
I would argue that Sisko does have some of Javert's determination. He
defies Starfleet and poisons a planet's atmosphere to settle a conflict
that he has taken very seriously.
The reason that Sisko's actions surpise Eddington is because Eddington
is wrapped up in the whole Sisko as Javert imagery. Javert died without
capturing Valjean. Therefore, Eddington would NOT be caught by Sisko.
Because Sisko wasn't playing by the same rules as Eddington, Sisko was
able to defeat him.
<more snippage>
> I felt the intensity needed to be turned way, way up. It really seemed
to
>me like the stakes just weren't high enough to any of the characters.
I think that this episode was VERY intense. The punching bag scene
establishes just how seriously Sisko takes Eddington's betrayal. Sisko
put a lot of trust into Eddington and had it broken. This puts Sisko's
command ability in question, if not at Starfleet, at least in Sisko's own
mind. Sisko puts his command and his crew and the lives of "innocent"
Maquis (Maquis not directly related to the Sisko-Eddington conflict) on
the line to capture Eddington. Those are pretty high stakes.
<again with the snippage>
> Had Eddington's character been devoted toward a real goal, a real
objective, and >if we had seen more of his side of it, that would have
helped.
Eddington's goal seemed to be to become the Saviour of the Maquis. In
his mind, the end (Maquis liberation from Cardassian control) justified
his actions (poisoning planetary atmospheres). Perhaps not a viable goal,
put a goal for Eddington non-the-less.
> Had Sisko's motives been more clear, and if he had possessed a stronger
>reason for the taking the actions he did, that would have helped even
more. But, >in the end, the episode was just safe.
Sisko had a very simple motive, revenge. Eddington betrayed Sisko and
Starfleet. Sisko couldn't allow Eddington to go unpunished. Sisko's
actions were extraordinary and should result in some action against him by
Starfleet. Having a Captain put the lives of innocents (those pesky
Maquis not directly involved with the Sisko-Eddington conflict) at serious
risk to secure the capture of a renegade is not "safe". Picard never
stooped to that level, Kirk was never that driven, and Janeway... (I have
a very low opinion of "Voyager". "Voyager" is the show that plays it
safe).
Some might argue that no Maquis are innocent, but certainly not all of
them approve of Eddington's actions. Did they? And was the planetary
population strictly Maquis? Perhaps there were innocent settlers who were
trying to continue life under Cardassian rule as best they could.
Certainly they could be considered innocent.
All in all, a very enjoyable episode. Certainly better than watching a
Klingon/Human halfbreed succumb to raging Vulcan hormones.
Obviously, our opinions difer as they are sometimes wont to do. Perhaps
we can agree to disagree?
T.W. George
P.S. A suggestion to the writers. Find a way to rescue Taurik from th
"ship of the damned" and bring him to DS9. This character is wasted on
Voyger. I had hopes that he would return since "Below Decks" aired. He
is played by a very talented actor, and is the best portrayal of a Vulcan
since Spock. Please, put him on a show that doesn't make me retch!
Matthew Murray
On 8 Feb 1997, Rob Rooney wrote:
> But if DS9 did break off from the Federation, I think that cries of foul
> would be heard from the B5 fans over how it was similar to what happened on
> B5.
And you know what? I think it would be completely and utterly
justified. After the debacle regarding "Messages From Earth," "Point of
No Return," and "Severed Dreams" as compared to "Homefront" and "Paradise
Lost," I think Babylon 5 fans would have a >right< to be upset about the
whole thing. And if they called it "Dashed Hopes," as I just think it's
possible they might do... Besides, we have yet to see anything in DS9
that suggests there is >any< reason at all for them to do it. They had
been building up to it on Babylon 5 for a year and a half. Whether or
not the Babylon 5 parallel could be drawn, there would be any number of
other reasons to be upset about it.
> However, the potential for Civil war is there. I think that the Federation
> has bigger problems that are keeping it from really settling the Maquis
> issue once and for all. With the Borg invasion, the potential for Dominion
> invasion and the on-again off-again war with the Klingons, I think that the
> Maquis are pretty low on the totem pole. And the Cardassians have way too
> many problems to worry about them (especially with what's coming next
> week).
But what does any of this have to do with Civil War? Nothing.
And what would possibly give DS9 the reason to break off from the
Federation. Absolutely nothing that I can think of, unless Sisko is just
>so< upset by the way Starfleet handled the Eddington thing. But, I
mean, come on. They would really be pulling any of this out of thin air,
and I don't want to see it any more than I wanted to see "The Begotten."
Brad Stethem
> the Feds into their situation. Sure they've raided a few transports and
> picked on the Cardassians (and the Feds have responded because of the
They did attack an Excelsior-class ship, and they also planted computer viruses
on the Defiant and on DS9. That's involving the Federation. Sure, the Feds
might not respond, but it seems likely that the Maquis are planning to move
against the Federation sometime. Why, I can't even guess. But when you
consider how many Starfleet officers that have defected, there could be
undectable viruses on many starships.
> An interesting plot twist would be for something to happen that requires
> Sisko to pull Eddington out of prison and use him (a la how Paris was used
> by Janeway, but I would hope in a more believable fashion). Because of the
> history between Eddington and Sisko, there would be a *LOT* more friction
> than was even hinted at between Janeway and Paris. Interesting character
> development for Sisko would be for him to forgive Eddington (for one reason
> or another).
That would be pretty cool. I doubt Eddington would help Sisko, though. Unless
it was some threat to the entire DMZ. Maybe something that would force them to
work with the Cardassians as well.
> btw, I think longer contracts are out of the question. At least for Avery
> Brooks.. from what I've read, he hates Star Trek.
I find that hard to believe. I think it's just speculation since he doesn't do
the conventions. Anyways, even if he doesn't like it, he must like the regular
paycheck.
Franklin Hummel
In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.970207...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>,
Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>
> But that is a problem I have with ST these days, and with DS9 in
>particular. I really want to see the show take more risks. With this
>episode, they had the opportunity for some real drama and emotion (they
>needed to really rethink the Sisko/Eddington "relationship," though--it
>just didn't work in the context they wanted it to), but they just stopped
>before it really got interesting. Had Eddington's character been devoted
>toward a real goal, a real objective, and if we had seen more of his side
>of it, that would have helped. Had Sisko's motives been more clear, and
>if he had possessed a stronger reason for the taking the actions he did,
>that would have helped even more. But, in the end, the episode was just
>safe. I don't like seeing ST be safe. It hasn't always been that way.
>Safe television isn't always bad, but it gets tiresome after a while, and
>I fear DS9 is really beginning to run its course in that regard. If,
>just once, the writers would completely throw themselves into a script
>and have it take as many risks as possible, utilizing everything that
>makes the characters as potentially "tension-filled" as they supposedly
>are, then we would have a great episode of DS9. "For the Uniform"
>probably could have been that, but it wasn't. It could have been great,
>but instead, it was okay. It could have been powerful. It could have
>been dramatic. It could have been interesting. Unfortunately, it wasn't
>any of those things. It was just safe.
one has gone before"? And this meant more than just "going somewhere",
it meant its characters and its stories as well.
I was rewatching BABYLON 5's "The Long Night" and its ending,
as the fleet left for war, to face the Vorlons and the Shadows, as
Sheridan is quoting Tennyson: "...to strive, to seek, to find, and not
to yield".
All I could think of was that BABYLON 5 -is- now what STAR TREK
-was- once.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
====================================================================
* NecronomiCon, 3rd Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
15-17 August 1997, Providence, Rhode Island
Visit our NEW web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> > CIVIL WAR. Yes, yes. Can you see it. Ds9 splitting from the Fed. Bajor
>
> But if DS9 did break off from the Federation, I think that cries of foul
> would be heard from the B5 fans over how it was similar to what happened
on
> B5.
That would be an unfortunate side effect. If B5 fans want to be petty and
worry about one show using a great concept that the other used to great
effect to even better effect let them, I want better Ds9. I don't care if
they have to haircut B5.
<<snipped>>
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> And you know what? I think it would be completely and utterly
> justified.
No it wouldn't. I think it would be a great proof that B5 has tought Trek a
couple of things
After the debacle regarding "Messages From Earth," "Point of
> No Return," and "Severed Dreams" as compared to "Homefront" and "Paradise
> Lost," I think Babylon 5 fans would have a >right< to be upset about the
> whole thing.
It was obvious those episodes were too similar to have not been based on
each other. Although I prefered Severed Dreams(all time greastest B5 ep,
IMHO) to Homefront and PL I enjoyed them both. If Ds9 split from the
Federation it would be great. NOt as good as when B5 did it but it could be
argued that all of B5 is not as good as Tolkein's Lod of the Rings.....
And if they called it "Dashed Hopes," as I just think it's
> possible they might do... Besides, we have yet to see anything in DS9
> that suggests there is >any< reason at all for them to do it.
I think it could be done reasonably. Not with the same logic and depth as
B5(JMS had it planned for a 2 years!!) but with just as much action and
Drama...
They had
> been building up to it on Babylon 5 for a year and a half. Whether or
> not the Babylon 5 parallel could be drawn, there would be any number of
> other reasons to be upset about it.
Like?
> But what does any of this have to do with Civil War? Nothing.
> And what would possibly give DS9 the reason to break off from the
> Federation. Absolutely nothing that I can think of, unless Sisko is just
> >so< upset by the way Starfleet handled the Eddington thing. But, I
> mean, come on. They would really be pulling any of this out of thin air,
> and I don't want to see it any more than I wanted to see "The Begotten."
I think that a civil is more than possible on Ds9. Unfortunately Ds9's
producers are to cowardl, its fans to afraid of arcs and the story to
complex for its writers to do well.
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> : "Captain, have you reminded SF that they assigned Eddington here
because
> : they didn't trust me?"
> : "No"
> : "Please do"
>
> Ok gotcha -- thanks for reminding me (or telling me) :)
Yeah.
<<snipped>>
> : Doesn't matter. Unnessecary.
>
> I don't agree. They were working on manually controlling the ship so
> it was necessary. Now that part with manual control did go on for a
> tad too long, but IMO it was still well placed and necessary (if a
> little overdone).
Think about like this. I am telling you ow to drive a car:
"I am going to use the acceleration vector control pad to increase engine
fuel consumprion rate, during which the antillock breaks should allow for
gyrostational control of the cars relative equlibrium."
Why not just say, " I am going press he gas pedal and go faster. If we go
too fast I will use the break."
> Yes but it still doesn't change the fact that Sisko released a fatal
> agent into a planet inhabited by humans. A reset is when it turns
> out that this wasn't trilithium or all this happened in a modified
> timeline.
It wouldn't have been a reset then. Thenthe balance of power would have
been shifted now it is exactly as it was before .
> : No it didn't. The planet is still habitable by Cardies
>
> But the humans had to be evacuated.
And moved to the planet that the Cardies evacuated. The Cardies that
evacuated that planet will move to the former Maquis planet and so forth
Clearly this is of great
> importance.
Not really. A fair swap.
Furthermore, the way Sisko appears is of tremendous
> importance.
I would bet money that it will wither be left hanging or never mentioned
again
Now we see a Captain, who out of lust for revenge
> poisoned an entire planet of humans to capture one man.
We also see a Maquis guy willing to give himself up because he sees it as
just..
This
> puts Sisko in an entirely different light. We've seen the vengeful,
> obsessive side of Sisko.
As we have before...
> : They traded planets. No biggie
>
> Having a person release deadly materials in your atmosphere so that
> you have to haul ass is a biggie. Ok, so maybe no one died (who
> knows), but the fact remains that what seems like attempted
> genocide occurred.
The same was done to the Cardassians. Now that they have traded things go
back to theway they were before
> : It was too. Watch it again They specifically say the CArdassians are
moving
> : to the former Maquis planet.....
>
> Yes but again this move has consequences.
Like what?
The Marquis have been usurped
> yet again. Not only did the Cardassians dislodge them, but then
> Starfleet pulled the same stunt, with attempted mass murder.
And the Maquis did the same thing. What worse is that Sisko would have
helped with the evacuation of the people on the Maquis planet.
<<Snipped>>
> Well I can only say I disagree.
Okay
<<snipped>>
> : And what would you give Macrocosm?
>
> Refresh my memory, what was Macrocosm about again? It's pretty
> rare when I pay attention to a show's title, I've only done so
> very recently.
The viruses chasing Janeway.
> [Snip]
> By the end of the show, the state of the scene had changed. Hardly
> a reset.
Not my any measure. OTher than Eddington, being captured nothing changed
> : it does when nothing happens of substance
>
> Capturing a rebel, revealing that the hero has an extremely obsessive,
> perhaps even EVIL side, and juggling people on planets does not
> count as substance?
We have seen every SF captain have an 'evil side'. Kirk's was even
physically manifested.
<<snipped>>
> : It gets worse as more and more bald guys apear.
>
> Yup. At least with a few you might think that they don't give
> a crap, or that they are pathological cases of balding that
> can't be cured. But after a while...
Perhaps they just don't bother. Why add hair? I am sure there are species
outthere who find it attractive to see themselves in your head
<<snipped>.
> : ALien Nation. He plaed George Fransico.
>
> So that's where I saw him! Yes, GEORGE! Ok, thanks a ton for
> clearing that up as well.
Well Eddington was in Krull. Between them this was a virtual SF/Fant
convention
<<snipped>>
Nigel Tzeng
For the Uniform was the worst DS9 episode I have ever seen. In fact
it was so bad I'm giving up on DS9 entirely because the major characters
were ruined in this episode. I hope the Dominion blows them all to
bloody little pieces.
Why?
Because Sisko elects to open fire on a civilian population with the
equivalent of chemical weapons.
He did so without authorization.
He did so against everything star fleet stands for.
He did so because he was frustrated and couldn't think of anything better
to do.
What's more...the entire bridge crew allow him to do it...not once but
nearly twice. And then there's not even any sort of reprimand from
starfleet for his obviously illegal act. He should be on trial right
next to Eddington...and his senior officers along for the ride.
His actions should have resulted in the second most senior starfleet
officer (or for that matter any junior officer) to relieve him of
command. Worf should have done it (which pisses me off since that
screws up Worf too...). His line shouldn't have been "release safety
interlocks on torpedoes 3 and 4" but "Sir, you are relieved of
command for issuing illegal orders to fire upon a civilian
population. Step away from your console immediately."
Then Starfleet could have kicked Sisko out of Starfleet and made him
ambassador to Bajor and moved Worf to command of the Defiant. Someone
new could have brought in to command DS9 (or just move Kira up to CO)
Or they could had the Captain from the other starship open fire on
the planet and Sisko could have relieved him of command.
Or they could have done a half dozen other intelligent things.
But no...they did this BS and then tried to make is sound like it was
the right thing to do...and Sisko and Dax were proud of the action as
if it was standard Starfleet policy to irradiate planets and they hadn't
soiled the uniform they wear.
What's even WORSE is that it was an inherently stupid thing to do. If
the Maquis was seen to be crazed people who used weapons of mass
destruction on civilian targets (not hard) then Sisko would have
gotten the resoures from Starfleet to eradicate them. Instead the
press is going to (or at least should) crucify Star Fleet and the
opposition (political opponents who believe in cutting fleet budgets)
will have a freaking field day.
It's on par with the US gassing Baghdad to get Saddam to surrender
himself.
Eddington won hands down because he pushed Sisko into not just
overreacting but massively overreacting. Had Sisko just done nothing
he would have won. Instead the moral of this episode is that two
wrongs make a right. Well screw you...not in the star trek universe.
So, that's it. I'm done with Star Trek when they start gassing planets to
catch one guy. And for the record, yes, I do think people who like this
episode to be utter fools because it IS fundamentally against everything
Star Trek is about. No IMHO about it.
Nigel
PS Yes, I am a little pissed. Can you tell? :) There is no more
vehement an opponent than a believer who feels he (or she) has been
betrayed...and by God this episode has done it for me.
Rob Rooney
Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.ULT.3.91.970208...@statler.cc.wwu.edu>...
> On 8 Feb 1997, Rob Rooney wrote:
> > However, the potential for Civil war is there. I think that the
Federation
> > has bigger problems that are keeping it from really settling the Maquis
> > issue once and for all. With the Borg invasion, the potential for
Dominion
> > invasion and the on-again off-again war with the Klingons, I think that
the
> > Maquis are pretty low on the totem pole. And the Cardassians have way
too
> > many problems to worry about them (especially with what's coming next
> > week).
>
> And what would possibly give DS9 the reason to break off from the
> Federation. Absolutely nothing that I can think of, unless Sisko is just
> >so< upset by the way Starfleet handled the Eddington thing. But, I
> mean, come on. They would really be pulling any of this out of thin air,
> and I don't want to see it any more than I wanted to see "The Begotten."
What it means is that there are bigger problems right now that are keeping
people together. It's obvious which is the greater evil, so the other
problems keep a civil war from occurring when it may have in the past. I
think that the dissenters are waiting until the larger crisis has passed
before pushing the Maquis issue. I don't think that DS9 would break off in
any case, you are correct that there aren't any issues that would bring
that about.
-Rob
Doug Radcliffe
While I do agree with some of your postings.. I have this comment:
Eddington was going from Cardassian planet to Carassian planet doing the
same thing, destroying its atmosphere.. they established that he had a LOT
of weapons and could knock out a ton of plaents. They couldn't stop him
any other way! This was the last resort.. it was either try this methond
or let Eddington knock out a ton of planets.
So while I think the solution was hastey and drastic, I dont think it was
completely uncalled for. It was either that or chase him around the DMZ
as he blows planets to bits. How many more do you let him destroy? It
was clear he didn't give a crap about Cardassian life --" They are just
Cardassians".. etc
Nigel Tzeng (ni...@access1.digex.net) wrote:
: For the Uniform was the worst DS9 episode I have ever seen. In fact
:
:
PNash10313
Thats good, one less mindless person for the writters to worry about,
they prefer those with the ability of thought outside, black and
white/wright and wrong.
If you can't notice the literary genius of this episode you don't even
diserve to watch star trek.
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
> >Sisko was beaten rather soundly by Eddinton I thought. Not only did he
beat
> >him tactically he beat him philisophically.
>
> But Sisko eventually caught on to his game.
To little to late
> But everything was set up in TNG for all the events to take place
> in DS9 and VOY.
Near the very end, they sure did but only to set up the too new franchises.
TNG still had the touchy feeliness and even Janeway insists on the
Federation's wonderful superiority. Picard still insisted on the
Federation's perfection. Only Sisko(thanks to DS9's writers of course) see
things more clearly/differently.
> >> DS9 has always been a little more politically inclined than TNG.
> >That is one of the better aspects, yes.
>
> Allows for more sophisticated storytelling.
Very true. You cannot tellthe story of military ship in civilian run
goverment without going into the politics of the situation
> >Can;t be that far. A runabout can make it to Earth and back inside of a
> >week. There op warp is around 4 or 5. Warp 9 is at least 3 times as fast
>
> Ds9 is at the far reaches of Federation space. It takes quite a
> while for a ship to get there.
Not according to most Ds9 episodes. In the episode where they end up in
21st century Earth they got there in less than a week. In Apocalypse Rising
a Runabout went to Fleet comamdn on EArth in a couple of days. That theory
just doesn't pan out.
> > There was only
> >> one IN RANGE.
> >Why?
>
> The Maquis aren't considered that big of a threat.
With bunches of fleet officers in their command structure? That is very
foolish
Second of all,
> you can't show a big force of ships in that area because of the
volatility
> of that portion of space. There are also better things to do around the
> Federation.
Like what? The Romulans are crushed, the Klingons are held at arms length,
and we haven't heard from any other major threat in a while. That secotr of
space needs more ships to prevent that volatility from going kaboom.
> >I seriously doubt that...
>
> Definat is a worthy opponent and capable of putting down a small
> contingency of Klingon BOP's and a Vor'Cha.
I love the Defiant and all but against a full scale Jem' invasion?
> There has to be some sort of control over the ship. Otherwise, you
> go out spinning every which way, like the Defiant was doing before Dax
> regained the ship's balance.
Why would it matter? You are in the middle of space? Whether your ship is
up or down should not matter
> Much like the original Trek Series. More people on the bridge,
> people shouting orders to engage thrusters, release docking clamps, the
> umbilical cord, etc.
Yeah. A bit of over kill though.
> Well, let's see. The Defiant bridge is smaller than the 1701-D's
> battle bridge. There just isn't space. I just don't understand why the
> holocommunicator is even necessary. Oh well...
Since there isn't the space why would you want to add more clutter. Just as
importantly in mid battle why would you want to spin around like that?
> Well, we never really complained about that in TNG, did we?
I wasn't online to complain then. I would have. Believe me.
Only
> now. Why?
I wasn't here.
> I don't really care about the reset button.
I do.
It brings the
> story back to some sort of resolution. Eddington has been caught, but
> at what cost?
None
The destruction of a planetary atmosphere? Possible
> repurcussions from the Federation?
No. They basicly made aplanet unihabitable for humans but it still hunky
dory for the Cardies. They made another unihabitable by Cardies but okay
for humans. A trade. balance the same as before.
I just don't think that you can leave
> people hanging.
Better that, with a forthcoming conclusion, than returning the status quo
If the Paramount writers did do that, then you can be
> absolutely sure that someone on this newsgroup is going to bitch about
the
> story not being resolved and how all the people were to survive on a
> poinsoned planet, etc.
If they resolved it slowly over a couple of episodes it would have been
better. Instead they just solve it in the last coupel of minutes and you
won't see it again. I would bet good money that you won't see Eddington
again or hear about those planets.
PNash10313
YOu see the new audience of star trek prefers the realistic way out,
and not the happy tied up ending with an easy escape.
What Sisko did was save the lives of thousands perhaps millions of
cardassians, by taking a away the home of perhaps a couple of hundred
people, who were relocated to another planet later anyway.
He used his better judgement, and that's what being a good captain
is about.
all your easy way out answers sound like something that would happen on
Voyager or TNG, who prefer to handle things, with two dimensional hero
characters instead of three dimensional like DS9. If you watch ds9 you
know sisko believes in his uniform more then anything else. ie eps like
home front paradise lost , and the one where he and obrian crashed on the
planet with the omish type society. He knew he had to bend the rules and
sacrafice himself to stop eddington, everything he did is commendable.
Sisko never gives up, and thats why he'll win the war with the domminion
and klingons.
Dr. Feelgood
>
> Think about like this. I am telling you ow to drive a car:
> "I am going to use the acceleration vector control pad to increase engine
> fuel consumprion rate, during which the antillock breaks should allow for
> gyrostational control of the cars relative equlibrium."
>
> Why not just say, " I am going press he gas pedal and go faster. If we go
> too fast I will use the break."
What, and take all the fun out of it?
>
> > Yes but it still doesn't change the fact that Sisko released a fatal
> > agent into a planet inhabited by humans. A reset is when it turns
> > out that this wasn't trilithium or all this happened in a modified
> > timeline.
>
> It wouldn't have been a reset then. Thenthe balance of power would have
> been shifted now it is exactly as it was before .
>
> > : No it didn't. The planet is still habitable by Cardies
> >
> > But the humans had to be evacuated.
>
> And moved to the planet that the Cardies evacuated. The Cardies that
> evacuated that planet will move to the former Maquis planet and so forth
>
Isn't resistance to being uprooted from their homes the entire source of
the Maquis conflict? As I understood it there were colonies on both sides
that were given to the other as part of the treaty and the maquis are
fighting against this settlement.
> Clearly this is of great
> > importance.
>
> Not really. A fair swap.
Seems to be important enough to make several upper echelon members of
starfleet turn traitor. As it's been explained in the past, there is
plenty of room in the federation to resettle the maquis- the conflict is
almost solely based on the fact that they would rather live in a war zone
than give up their homes.
>
> Furthermore, the way Sisko appears is of tremendous
> > importance.
>
> I would bet money that it will wither be left hanging or never mentioned
> again
Sure seemed like it at the end. What everyone universally seemed to see as
a serious, if not criminal act before the fact suddenly turned into no big
deal for the DS9 folks afterwards.
>
> Now we see a Captain, who out of lust for revenge
> > poisoned an entire planet of humans to capture one man.
yup
> We also see a Maquis guy willing to give himself up because he sees it as
> just..
yup (or because he sees that it will be seen as just)
And as far as the ongoing "no baldness in the future" discussion. Has
anyone perhaps noticed that Sisko is not naturally bald, but is so by
choice? That in fact he looked one hell of a lot worse with hair. Picard
was naturally bald and I'd hate to see him with a tribble growing out of
his head, yuck! And to stop things before they start I will assure you
that I am not yet losing my hair...
Nigel Tzeng
In article <01bc1628$fb22dc40$0102...@bstethem.chat.carleton.ca>,
Brad Stethem <bste...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>
>Nigel Tzeng <ni...@access1.digex.net> wrote in article
><5div76$f...@access1.digex.net>...
>> Because Sisko elects to open fire on a civilian population with the
>> equivalent of chemical weapons.
>
>planet. Considering that it didn't look too hospitable from orbit, it was
>probably just a base, not a fully occupied planet.
IIRC he said maquis colony...and a colony implies civilians. And a base?
Please, if they could find the damn bases they'd blow them up. That at
least would be legitimate. Not indescriminate bombing of populations.
What if some colonists could reach the evac points in time?
In any case this is a pathetic defense by splitting f*cking hairs. The
"kinder and gentler" Federation and the "non-military" Star Fleet isn't
supposed to be going around making planets uninhabitable and risking
the lives of innocents because some guy make them look bad...boo hoo.
If they wanted to "save Cardassian lives" then they could damn well
bring more ships in to guard planets and perhaps intercept the
raiders. Or even, to steal a page from Desert Storm, send some
freaking Patriots to shore up the defenses of Cardassian colonies.
Nigel
Nigel Tzeng
In article <5divfk$e...@cdc2.cdc.net>, Doug Radcliffe <do...@cdc.net> wrote:
>While I do agree with some of your postings.. I have this comment:
>
>Eddington was going from Cardassian planet to Carassian planet doing the
>same thing, destroying its atmosphere.. they established that he had a LOT
>of weapons and could knock out a ton of plaents. They couldn't stop him
>any other way! This was the last resort.. it was either try this methond
>or let Eddington knock out a ton of planets.
Or maybe ask for more ships...from either the Cardassians or Starfleet.
Nope, never saw Sisko call up starfleet command for reinforcements.
Or offer negotiations.
Nope, not even one request for a cease fire to negotiate.
Or picket likely systems with runabouts
Nope, never even heard one call to DS9 to use the runabouts
Or try another ambush/intercept.
It almost worked once and they bagged a raider (50% of the
attacking forces was nuked). The Maquis can't really
afford that sort of attrition rate.
Try to track down the Maquis base with the bio-weapon
They said that it was hard to store and they had leads on the
manufacturing location. Did they ever try to follow one
of those leads? Backtrack from the labs to the hidden
base? Expend any effort to try and find them other than
that brief foray into the badlands? Nope.
>So while I think the solution was hastey and drastic, I dont think it was
>completely uncalled for. It was either that or chase him around the DMZ
>as he blows planets to bits. How many more do you let him destroy? It
>was clear he didn't give a crap about Cardassian life --" They are just
>Cardassians".. etc
So two wrongs make a right?
Is this the what you think the Federation stands for? We're nice
until it is no longer expedient? Well, it is the 90s...and it is
(IMHO) an accurate reflection of american mores...and a sad one since
it appeared to be totally unintentional.
Nigel
---
Join Star Fleet to go where no one has gone before, meet new races
and gas their planets.
Michael Johnson
FIRST OF ALL...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS EPISODE SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never been so PISSED off at
a DS9 episode in my life. And I pretty much liked "The Ship", "The
Darkness and the Light" and "The Begotten" to name a few.
The first thing that ticked me off was that little thing at the start
with Eddington having planted a "cascade virus" in order to disable
the Defiant. While other people may see that as technobabble it is a
pure and utter impossibility. And if it was Starfleet would have to be
the stupidest motherfuckers on the planet to build a ship that way.
First, for a virus to "work" and disable the controls on ALL systems
the operating system code for EACH and every system would HAVE to be
in writeable memory. Second, all of the systems would have to be
linked together. The main reason you KEEP the systems seperate is for
the very reason that if one system crashes.. say helm, then you still
have the sensor arrays and library computer. These people who write
for the show seem to have absolutely *NO* idea how the Defiant HAS to
work.
Now, assume such a thing was possible and it wiped your memory. Would
you reprogram the system? No. Obviously you have a backup locked in
the captain's quarters of EACH and every byte of code on something
akin to a CDROM which cannot be written to and you simply reformat
your memory, reload it, reboot the system, and take off. This is the
SAME scenario that would be used for DS9. Does Odo go weeding through
the computers for viruses? No, the express reason being is that you
never know if you got all of them. What you do is just like the
Defiant... erase everything and go from backup. Nothing more is needed
but these people seem to have no clue how technology works.
Now, assume the case that OK the virus took out the memory and its
gonna take a protracted length of time to fix it. Does it even sound
plausible that once the Defiant was defenseless Eddington does not
board the ship, offload the crew, and then strip the Defiant for parts
and sell those which he cannot use? I'm sure there is some impressive
weaponry on board that would fund Maquis activities for a good time to
come. But does he? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. He leaves!
Now. Fast forward to the Badlands scenario. Supposedly Eddington put
out a fake sensor image. Why doesn't Sisko just launch a very light
weapon at the sensor image to see if it is real? Nothing that would
damage a ship but if it moves than it is real. Then apparently we come
out of the Badlands to find out that Eddington disabled a Federation
STARSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does he take it over and use it to kick the
Defiant's ASS? Does he attach tractor beams to it and take it into
warp with him so he can scuttle it for parts? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You
would think money grows on trees for the Marquis because Eddington
leaves the ship to go destroy a planet! This touches on another gripe
of mine. It is just TOO damn easy to take out the big ships of the
Federation. Even given TOTAL and complete knowledge of both ships
would you expect to be able to take over an air craft carrier with a
cruiser? Fuck no, but the Maquis seem to be able to do it with ease.
So now we move toward the ending. Sisko launches a catastrophic strike
on an entire planet rendering it useless to anyone for 50 YEARS. He
then claims he'll do it to all the planets of the Maquis and Eddington
crumbles like a fucking TWIG! Here is a guy who took out *2*
Federation ships in the same episode and yet acts like milktoast cause
Sisko took out a planet. Have the writers EVER played chess? Just
because someone takes a pawn is no reason to suddenly RESIGN!!! I
think i just about puked all over myself when I saw this. Obviously,
with Eddington's "MASTER" cunning he simply uses it to retake the
Defiant again. If he can't then he just has one of his ships ram it.
Oh, and a trend that has been popping up in DS9 episodes as of late.
Officers seem to commit court-martialable acts AT WILL with no
problem. First Worf commited an outright atrocity in Let He who is
Without Sin by screwing with a planet's enviornmental system without
permission putting EVERY single person on the planet in danger and now
with this episode Sisko launchs planet destroying weapons without
permission with no reprecussions whatsoever.
All in all, I give this episode an F- and what an absolute waste of a
special effects budget already strapped since the Trials and
Tribbleations episode. The episode had a nice premise with Sisko going
up against Eddington but the implementation of it was a house of cards
with no cards at the base to support it. The one redeeming quality it
had was a decent preview for next week's episode.
And btw... while we are on it... how do YOU Mr. Wolfe explain the
above problems and how your story editors did not PICK apart this
monster from the beginning? Don't mind the harsh language above but I
have never been so aghast and disappointed at a story in all my life.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
ni...@access1.digex.net (Nigel Tzeng) wrote:
>So, that's it. I'm done with Star Trek when they start gassing planets to
>catch one guy. And for the record, yes, I do think people who like this
>episode to be utter fools because it IS fundamentally against everything
>Star Trek is about. No IMHO about it.
Hey man, I'm with you here. And how did you like that when Eddington
disabled the Defiant and didn't even bother to take their vessel from
them to go strip it for parts? Like he is gonna just LET them go after
the trouble he went through to disable it.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
do...@cdc.net (Doug Radcliffe) wrote:
>While I do agree with some of your postings.. I have this comment:
>Eddington was going from Cardassian planet to Carassian planet doing the
>same thing, destroying its atmosphere.. they established that he had a LOT
>of weapons and could knock out a ton of plaents. They couldn't stop him
>any other way! This was the last resort.. it was either try this methond
>or let Eddington knock out a ton of planets.
My assertation is that he should have done it ANYWAY. Or at least make
the Defiant defenseless again since he was so good at it.
>So while I think the solution was hastey and drastic, I dont think it was
>completely uncalled for.
Of course it was. Because if they had written the Eddington character
correctly it wouldn't have succeeded in doing anything but causing a
major bloodbath on all sides.
>It was either that or chase him around the DMZ as he blows planets to bits.
>How many more do you let him destroy? It was clear he didn't give a crap
>about Cardassian life --" They are just Cardassians".. etc
Sometimes you just *DON'T* win. What you do do is drop a substance
into the planets that he made uninhabitable for Cardy life that makes
them uninhabitable for Human life too. That way the Maquis get nothing
out of that planet and you remove the reason for them to do such a
thing.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
maca...@aol.REMOVE.TO.REPLY.com (Phoenix) wrote:
>I agree. This is one of those classic cases where a commander is faced
>with a field decision, one of the lesser of two evils, where either way a
>lot of bad things are going to happen that he will have to live with the
>rest of his life. There is really no telling where Eddington would've
>ended.
Eddington would have ended the moment he realized that you were going
to all the planets he made uninhabitable for Cardy life and make them
ALSO uninhabitable for human life. He then has no reason to take them
out.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
ni...@access5.digex.net (Nigel Tzeng) wrote:
>In article <5divfk$e...@cdc2.cdc.net>, Doug Radcliffe <do...@cdc.net> wrote:
>>While I do agree with some of your postings.. I have this comment:
>>
>>Eddington was going from Cardassian planet to Carassian planet doing the
>>same thing, destroying its atmosphere.. they established that he had a LOT
>>of weapons and could knock out a ton of plaents. They couldn't stop him
>>any other way! This was the last resort.. it was either try this methond
>>or let Eddington knock out a ton of planets.
<suggestions snipped>
The actual solution is to make the planets destroyed by Eddington
uninhabitable to human life as well. Once that happened he has no
reason to take out any more of them.
-MJ
Brian Barjenbruch
> Come after Sisko? Now why would he do a fool thing like that? his entire
> claim throoughout the episode was that he held no grudge, felt no animosity
> towards Sisko. It was Sisko picking the fight.
The clincher there is: It was his <claim>. Who's to say he was telling
the truth? He is, after all, a Maquis. Why could he be trusted?
Eddington was the one who picked the fight, because he's the one who
turned traitor and defected to the Maquis. That very action is all the
provocation that's required.
Also, even if Eddington didn't hate Sisko before, I'm sure he hates him
now; after all, Sisko's the one who captured him.
Brian
Brian
Michael Johnson
maca...@aol.REMOVE.TO.REPLY.com (Phoenix) wrote:
>That (in parentheses) is probably the sole reason he isn't being prosecuted.
>If it was against the law, Starfleet would be looking the other way. But
>we have no idea so far if it's against the law. But, keep in mind, if it was
>a Maquis colony, then it is NOT a Federation world (it's a Cardassian
>world now by treaty).
Then if it is a Cardassian world what Sisko has just gone and done is
commit an act of WAR.
>> So you believe that it is Federation policy to "sacrifice planets" to
>> capture terrorists? You have an interesting view of Federation policy.
>>
>I never said that. You know it. Don't put words in my mouth.
>It's quite clear Eddington is no everyday case, so "policy" cannot
>possibly apply to this situation.
Commiting acts of war cannot possibly apply to this situation. And
there WERE alternatives. You simply make all the planets he has made
uninhabitable for Cardy life ALSO uninhabitable for Maquis life. If he
destroys them all then he has nothing more to fight for and has just
lost everything. His whole concept hinges on the hope that these
disputed planets will still be able to support Maquis people. Remove
that and you remove the problem of him trashing worlds.
>The Federation had taken military action against the Maquis before
>this time, so it already was being a hostile power. In any event, the Maquis
>do not have unlimited resources, and they receive much unofficial support
>from within the Federation, so I don't believe we'll be seeing a lot
>of retribution, unless it is against Sisko himself. THAT just may happen.
Hmm... SOMEONE figured out the Maquis do not have unlimited resources.
And how do you explain Eddington after making the Defiant defenseless
having left the scene WITHOUT the Defiant so that he could sell off
the parts and fund Maquis activities for many years???
>> You believe that Sisko's actions do not endanger Federation citizens
>> because HIS action has made Federation planets fair game for terrorist
>> retailiation?
>>
>The Maquis can't afford to risk losing their lifeline of support from
>within the Federation.
They disabled *2* Federation ships!!! If they don't take advantage of
that then they deserve whatever death they get.
>> It would be more than a 2-dimentional show if you ever saw any
>> consequences to career ending moves made by these offices. But, you do
>> not.
>>
>Side characters, yes; main characters, no. Someone more than Kirk
>should be busted as some point, I would agree.
In anything approaching reality the moment Sisko gave the order to
launch a planet-killer at an unarmed planet with a civilian population
his career along with every career of every person on board that ship
would have been *OVER*. And they would be lucky to not be facing a war
crimes trial for crimes against humanity.
>And I've already said Sisko shouldn't get off scot free but be court-martialed,
>at the very least because Starfleet can't have people going around doing
>big things like nuking planets or blowing up their own starships without at
>least being held to question for it. It is my opinion that Sisko's actions can be
>defended, but barely; he was definitely being a loose cannon.
He should face same penalty he gave every civilian on that planet who
just might have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.. DEATH. The
moment he launched the planet-killer he BECAME the enemy.
>But I'm far from sure that Sisko not being held to account is entirely
>unintentional as part of the Eddington course of events. Part of the
>reason this story exists is to point out, at least from Eddington's point
>of view, that the Federation has a dark side to it, and Starfleet looking
>the other way on Sisko's actions may well be part of it.
A *DARK* side?!?!?! Jesus Christ, they are no better than the fucking
Vorlons. Killing an entire planet in order make sure they get their
man.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
dark...@hawk.phantasy.com (darkness) wrote:
>Nigel Tzeng (ni...@access1.digex.net) wrote:
>: For the Uniform was the worst DS9 episode I have ever seen. In fact
>: it was so bad I'm giving up on DS9 entirely because the major characters
>: were ruined in this episode. I hope the Dominion blows them all to
>: bloody little pieces.
>: Why?
>That will most likley happen anyways...
We can only hope.
>: Because Sisko elects to open fire on a civilian population with the
>: equivalent of chemical weapons.
>OH MY GOD. HE IS A FLAWED PERSON! OH GOD NO!!!! WE CAN'T HAVE FLAWED
>PEOPLE IN TREK. GAS EM ALL...
Absolutely correct. Especially when his solution was not the last case
scenario but the first.
>: What's more...the entire bridge crew allow him to do it...not once but
>: nearly twice. And then there's not even any sort of reprimand from
>: starfleet for his obviously illegal act. He should be on trial right
>: next to Eddington...and his senior officers along for the ride.
>Who said it was illegal. I don't recall hearing that...
Firing on a territory which is not yours by treaty is always
considered an act of war. He did so without permission of any sort and
in the end did not even need to do so. If he had been thinking clearly
he would have realized there was an appropiately applicable solution
to this problem.
>: Or they could have done a half dozen other intelligent things.
>But they did this instead...
And in turn ruined the entire show. Captain Benjamin Sisko is now and
forever a butcherer and a destroyer of worlds. In anything approaching
reality he would end up hanging but this is DS9 which with this single
show firmly put itself out of ANYTHING even remotely resembling
Science Fiction and into the realm of Fantasy.
>: Eddington won hands down because he pushed Sisko into not just
>: overreacting but massively overreacting. Had Sisko just done nothing
>: he would have won. Instead the moral of this episode is that two
>: wrongs make a right. Well screw you...not in the star trek universe.
>I think you go tthe whole point wrong. I think it was ment to scare us. If
>you can't handle a universe with flaws go find one without them.
I do NOT mind flaws.. but senseless flaws which no right thinking mind
would make are incomprehensible. Burn DS9 Burn.
>: So, that's it. I'm done with Star Trek when they start gassing planets to
>: catch one guy. And for the record, yes, I do think people who like this
>: episode to be utter fools because it IS fundamentally against everything
>: Star Trek is about. No IMHO about it.
>I say GOOD WRITTING. And it isn't against everything Star Trek is about.
>Its shows what NOT to do. I suspect a major charactor change comming up.
Like having the entire crew of the Defiant hang for crimes against
humanity? It is too much to hope...
-MJ
Michael Johnson
>Michael Johnson <d...@connectnet.com> wrote
>> wrote:
>>
>> FIRST OF ALL...
>>
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> THIS EPISODE SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never been so PISSED off at
>> a DS9 episode in my life. And I pretty much liked "The Ship", "The
>> Darkness and the Light" and "The Begotten" to name a few.
>Well there in lies the problem. Bad taste. Please rectify.
Not really, just personal preference. I don't confuse them with
anything resembling Science Fiction or the greatest thing since potato
chips but for what they were they were ok in my book. "For the Uni"
however is a crime among men.
><<Snipped meanderings>>
>I believe you, who more than likely work in the computer field, would
>notice that more readily than I or anyone else. I have a problem whenever
>they talk about a virus here and virus there infecting everything. But
>since there were som any other things wrong with this episode I just
>accepted, this time, and moved on.
The long and the short is that the virus would *ONLY* be able to work
if Starfleet had absolutely no clue how to structure computer systems
or make that sure your code is not corrupted. *I* can think of ways to
make it impossible for Eddington to do his thing, and when I can do it
that doesn't say a whole lot about Starfleet. :)
-MJ
Michael Johnson
jmmcf...@holycross.edu (James McFadden) wrote:
>Sisko's actions were really not that crazy, since he knew he was not
>really going to go around attacking any more planets.
That bluff slick is what gets your ass taken. If the Eddington
character was written in any type of form approaching REALITY he would
not have crumbled like a twig. With his "master" cunning he should
have taken the Defiant back over or if he couldn't do that just get a
ship near it and cause an anti-matter explosion taking the Defiant
out. There were many things that Eddington COULD have done. The one he
WOULDN'T have done is just up and surrender for tickles.
>Also, I thought that Sisko's log said something about fixing the planet
>later on.
No excuse, he bombed a civilian population when the fact of the matter
is he did not need to.
>I don't think it was a fully inhabited planet like Earth, there were
>just a few settlements on it.
No excuse.
>And he had to stop Eddington not because of his obsession, but because
>he was going around destroying the atmosphere of many worlds, and he had
>to be stopped before the Cardies started going after the Maquis on there own.
There were OTHER more sensible ways for Sisko that worked just nicely.
I have given the most appropriate solution already.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
Chuck Fullerton <nou...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel) wrote:
>
>> All I could think of was that BABYLON 5 -is- now what STAR TREK
>>-was- once.
> Franklin, you took the words right outta my mouth. (although
>I must say, DS9 is getting really good, and "For The Uniform" was
>great.)
You *HAVE* to be kidding me!!!! Just because they fire a photon
torpedo here and there does NOT make it good. What makes it good is
the story behind the photon torpedo and lets just face it... that was
one lazy, stupid, fucked-up hack of a script that fell flat on its
face. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Try to support the
thing.. if you dare.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
"Dexter M. Duck" <dd...@ripco.com> wrote:
>His reason would still stand. He could force Cardassians out of the sector
>and prevent the Cardassians from establishing colonies any where in the DMZ.
You forget. His whole MOTIVE for doing what he is doing as a Maquis is
so that he can return the people to the planets which were taken from
them by treaty! This is the reason he didn't make the planets
uninhabitable for ALL life, just Cardassian. Even Dax said this
,"Gives the Maquis an upper hand". Why? Because now they can try to
inhabit the worlds. If you make all worlds they made uninhabitable for
cardy life uninhabitable for human life then they have just lost the
war and can NEVER return to their homes. The people who support
Eddington then just move on and Eddington has NOTHING more to fight
for and no one to support him, PERIOD.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
maca...@aol.REMOVE.TO.REPLY.com (Phoenix) wrote:
>We do know that the Cardassian government made it clear that if the
>Federation didn't clean up the Maquis they would nuke them themselves.
>There's no sign the policy has changed yet, so they might just be looking
>the other way too. Somewhat contradicts their new "kinder and gentler" nature.
We know he did it without permission. And with other better
alternatives at his disposal he should be hanged for it. He would in
anything resembling real life.
>We have no proof this was an act of war. All we have regarding the
>Cardassians is that they wanted the Maquis OUT. Yes, yours might
>be a viable solution, assuming nobody came up with ways to
>counteract anything done to those worlds.
If they did then what was the point of Eddington trashing them? The
Cardassians just wait 5 or so years, fix the planet for Cardy life,
and then torture the population into extinction.
>Hell with that; why didn't he take it with him, repair it, and use it
>against Cardassians? It's not like the Maquis didn't want to do that before.
>The idiot must've been too enthusiastically tunnel-visioned into his original
>plan to think practically. Riker's probably not the only one the Maquis
>are in a mood to yell at at this point.
Or the writers needed to have the Defiant around next week so they
used whatever lame excuse possible to justify it.
>> In anything approaching reality the moment Sisko gave the order to
>> launch a planet-killer at an unarmed planet with a civilian population
>> his career along with every career of every person on board that ship
>> would have been *OVER*. And they would be lucky to not be facing a war
>> crimes trial for crimes against humanity.
>>
>Assuming the Federation operates the way we would.
Right, assuming Star Trek is a REAL scenario of what might happen.
This is Fantasy so the writers can take enormous liberties i guess.
>But the Federation has been historically easy on people who do such
>things against its enemies, such as giving Garak 6 months in jail for
>attempted genocide.
Garak got 6 months for attempting it, how much should Sisko get for
actually doing it?
>However, if the Federation agrees that Sisko's doing that while they
>had Eddington in their gunsights was better than risking any more
>planets, the whole issue is probably moot to them.
If there weren't any other alternatives then you might have a point.
There were.
>> He should face same penalty he gave every civilian on that planet who
>> just might have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.. DEATH. The
>> moment he launched the planet-killer he BECAME the enemy.
>>
>The Federation has no death penalty. And most of the time you have
>to murder someone first before you can get executed.
Who is to say I guy wasn't out exploring when the bombs happened to
land on him. Or some old person had a heart attack. As far as any
governmental body was concerned what he attempted to do is considered
attempted murder. If people actually died then it IS murder whether he
intended it or not.
>> A *DARK* side?!?!?! Jesus Christ, they are no better than the fucking
>> Vorlons. Killing an entire planet in order make sure they get their
>> man.
>>
>I can't indict Starfleet based on a singular act and the condoning of it,
>especially if there was a lot to lose if Eddington succeeded.
I can. Anybody would if we were talking about anything close to
reality.
>Hell, the Klingons killed all life on a planet before for far less of a good
>reason than Sisko had....
They also don't live by a standard. Are you saying Starfleet is no
better than the Klingons?
-MJ
Maagic
Matthew Murray wrote:
>
> On 7 Feb 1997, Bryan E. Esquire wrote:
>
> > >4. Sisko's rant to Dax while punching the bag was a good use of his little
> > >speech impediment.
> >
> > He doesn't have an impediment. It's acting.
>
> Well, you sure could have fooled me! (You know, I >never<
> thought I would see the day when Terry Farrell was the best actor in a
> scene!)
>
> > >4. The acting in this episode bordered on the quality of Homeboy's in
> > >Outerspace at one instance and in the next was onderful. At times I
> > >wondered if half the actors got dime a minute rates to phone in their
> > >performances.
> >
> > Not really. AVery Brooks at his best, I think.
>
> <shudder> If that was his best, I'd sure hate to see his worst.
> Oh, wait, I forgot. I >did< see "The Ship."
>
> > >5. Damn technobabble. What the hell is a gyro sheild? This episode had more
> > >technobabble than the Technical Manual.
> >
> > I didn't have a problem with it. It gives the perfect explanation
> > as to how Defiant is able to maintain her balance so effectively.
> > It also gave the chance for us to see how exactly involved it is to
> > run a starship. I mean, Defiant can be run with no more than 50 people.
> > Maybe even less if it had too. DId you see how packed the Bridge and
> > Engineering was? Everything had to be calibrated, etc. How else would
> > you explain this without technobabble.
>
> Um, they wanted to show one shot of a starship moving outside of
> the typical horizontal flight plane they almost always fly on? They
> wanted to show off their... um... dazzling CGI capabilities? They wanted
> to fill five minutes of an episode with barely a half hour's worth of
> material with as much Treknobabble filler as possible?
> To be fair, though. This was an okay episode--for DS9. Better
> than some of the crap we've been subjected to this season, though the
> Sisko/Eddington relationship fell flat and I didn't buy it from the
> start. (And the boxing scene, which shows better than anything else why
> Avery Brooks should >not< be on the show, didn't contribute to their
> relationship at all. In fact, with such weak acting on Mr. Brooks' part,
> it actually detracted from it.) I also thought the Les Miserables
> parallel (if you can call it that) was extremely weak, and more than a
> little forced. (I'm sure they could have found a better one--the
> Valjean/Javert relationship is one that only transfers to Eddington and
> Sisko on the most superficial of levels. Sisko doesn't embody the
> fierce determination, the intense need and desire, and the almost
> methodical insanity Javert would require, while Eddington simply
> wasn't leveled enough to support the Valjean mold. While I am a fan of the
> musical, for some reason, I find it much more likely that the writers
> were basing their script more on that than on Victor Hugo's actual work.)
> But, despite its unnecessary length, the stuff on the Defiant was
> interesting, and I did appreciate their at least mentioning the Borg
> thing. I have to give them credit for that, and am glad that Ira Steven
> Behr didn't have his druthers. Still, I wish they would have made it a
They mentioned the Borg? When was this? did I miss something?
--
My web page! You won't believe it! http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1766
National Computer Outlet http://www.geocities.com/Area51/1766/nco.htm
The Way Inn http://www.pcl.net/wwwpages/corona/default.htm
Maagic
TWuG wrote:
>
> Matthew Murray <n964...@statler.cc.wwu.edu> wrote in response to a post
> by Bryan E. Esquire
>
> <much snipping>
>
> > I also thought the Les Miserables parallel (if you can call it that)
> was extremely >weak, and more than a little forced. (I'm sure they could
> have found a better >one--the Valjean/Javert relationship is one that only
> transfers to Eddington and
> >Sisko on the most superficial of levels. Sisko doesn't embody the fierce
> >determination, the intense need and desire, and the almost methodical
> insanity >Javert would require, while Eddington simply wasn't leveled
> enough to support the >Valjean mold.
>
> obssessed with these characters and has projected the Javert mold onto
> Sisko. Sisko was Javert only in Eddington's mind, and Eddington felt that
> he was Valjean, that doesn't mean he fits the mold, just that he "thinks"
> he fits the mold.
> I would argue that Sisko does have some of Javert's determination. He
> defies Starfleet and poisons a planet's atmosphere to settle a conflict
> that he has taken very seriously.
> The reason that Sisko's actions surpise Eddington is because Eddington
> is wrapped up in the whole Sisko as Javert imagery. Javert died without
> capturing Valjean. Therefore, Eddington would NOT be caught by Sisko.
> Because Sisko wasn't playing by the same rules as Eddington, Sisko was
> able to defeat him.
>
> <more snippage>
>
> > I felt the intensity needed to be turned way, way up. It really seemed
> to
> >me like the stakes just weren't high enough to any of the characters.
>
> I think that this episode was VERY intense. The punching bag scene
> establishes just how seriously Sisko takes Eddington's betrayal. Sisko
> put a lot of trust into Eddington and had it broken. This puts Sisko's
> command ability in question, if not at Starfleet, at least in Sisko's own
> mind. Sisko puts his command and his crew and the lives of "innocent"
> Maquis (Maquis not directly related to the Sisko-Eddington conflict) on
> the line to capture Eddington. Those are pretty high stakes.
>
> <again with the snippage>
>
> > Had Eddington's character been devoted toward a real goal, a real
> objective, and >if we had seen more of his side of it, that would have
> helped.
>
> Eddington's goal seemed to be to become the Saviour of the Maquis. In
> his mind, the end (Maquis liberation from Cardassian control) justified
> his actions (poisoning planetary atmospheres). Perhaps not a viable goal,
> put a goal for Eddington non-the-less.
>
> > Had Sisko's motives been more clear, and if he had possessed a stronger
> >reason for the taking the actions he did, that would have helped even
> more. But, >in the end, the episode was just safe.
>
> Sisko had a very simple motive, revenge. Eddington betrayed Sisko and
> Starfleet. Sisko couldn't allow Eddington to go unpunished. Sisko's
> actions were extraordinary and should result in some action against him by
> Starfleet. Having a Captain put the lives of innocents (those pesky
> Maquis not directly involved with the Sisko-Eddington conflict) at serious
> risk to secure the capture of a renegade is not "safe". Picard never
> stooped to that level, Kirk was never that driven, and Janeway... (I have
> a very low opinion of "Voyager". "Voyager" is the show that plays it
> safe).
> Some might argue that no Maquis are innocent, but certainly not all of
> them approve of Eddington's actions. Did they? And was the planetary
> population strictly Maquis? Perhaps there were innocent settlers who were
> trying to continue life under Cardassian rule as best they could.
> Certainly they could be considered innocent.
> All in all, a very enjoyable episode. Certainly better than watching a
> Klingon/Human halfbreed succumb to raging Vulcan hormones.
>
> Obviously, our opinions difer as they are sometimes wont to do. Perhaps
> we can agree to disagree?
> T.W. George
>
> P.S. A suggestion to the writers. Find a way to rescue Taurik from th
> "ship of the damned" and bring him to DS9. This character is wasted on
> Voyger. I had hopes that he would return since "Below Decks" aired. He
> is played by a very talented actor, and is the best portrayal of a Vulcan
> since Spock. Please, put him on a show that doesn't make me retch!
that was "Lower Decks" not Below decks
Maagic
Michael Allan Thomson wrote:
>
> Matthew Murray wrote:
>
> > than some of the crap we've been subjected to this season, though the
> > Sisko/Eddington relationship fell flat and I didn't buy it from the
> > start. (And the boxing scene, which shows better than anything else why
> > Avery Brooks should >not< be on the show, didn't contribute to their
> > relationship at all. In fact, with such weak acting on Mr. Brooks' part,
>
> down to the reason Sisko was so driven. He took it personally.
>
> Mike
I liked Odo's line about reminding Starfleet about them getting
Eddington because they didn't trust ODO.
Brad Stethem
Nigel Tzeng <ni...@access1.digex.net> wrote in article
<5div76$f...@access1.digex.net>...
> Because Sisko elects to open fire on a civilian population with the
> equivalent of chemical weapons.
That wasn't a civilian planet, he specifically said that it was a Maquis
Franklin Hummel
In article <5dh26a$n...@news.istar.ca>,
Michael Allan Thomson <Jtho...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote:
>I found the boxing scene to be the best part of the episode. We got
>down to the reason Sisko was so driven. He took it personally.
episode.
-- Franklin Hummel [ hum...@world.std.com ]
--
====================================================================
* NecronomiCon, 3rd Edition: The Cthulhu Mythos Convention *
15-17 August 1997, Providence, Rhode Island
Visit our NEW web site at: http://www.necropress.com/necronomicon
Lasher
Nigel Tzeng <ni...@access5.digex.net> wrote in article
<5djiq9$p...@access5.digex.net>...
SPOILERS for "For The Uniform"
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
<bunch of good points snipped>
> >While I do agree with some of your postings.. I have this comment:
> >So while I think the solution was hastey and drastic, I dont think it
was
> >completely uncalled for. It was either that or chase him around the DMZ
> >as he blows planets to bits. How many more do you let him destroy? It
> >was clear he didn't give a crap about Cardassian life --" They are just
> >Cardassians".. etc
>
> So two wrongs make a right?
>
> Is this the what you think the Federation stands for? We're nice
> until it is no longer expedient? Well, it is the 90s...and it is
> (IMHO) an accurate reflection of american mores...and a sad one since
> it appeared to be totally unintentional.
>
> Nigel
>
> ---
>
> Join Star Fleet to go where no one has gone before, meet new races
> and gas their planets.
>
Funny. Just yesterday, I was going around saying how Worf shouldn't be
the First Officer of the Defiant because of his frequent disregard for
Starfleet protocol. Now I see Sisko doing this in the worst way. Although
from the sounds of it no one on the Maquis colony was hurt, it makes little
difference. Making a planet flat-out uninhabitable just to flush out one
man borders on an atrocity, and it proves Eddington's point pretty
well--Sisko *was* obsessed with him.
Sisko engages in some pretty ludicrous rationalizations. Act like a
villain because your enemy considers you to be a villain? That wasn't a
strategy, it was an excuse. What made things worse is that this act is
going to result in *zero* repercussions. Dax didn't even take Sisko aside
afterwards and say, "Ben, please explain to me how what you did was any
better than what the Maquis were doing." Someone needs to take Sisko to
task for this, I don't care how successful he was.
However, I'm not going to hold my breath. Worf didn't get so much as a
slap on the wrist for sabotaging the entire planet of Risa, so I don't
expect Sisko getting anything in the way of a reprimand here either.
--
Lasher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
/====================================================\
is signature has been modified. It has been reformatted to fit your
scre
\====================================================/
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< las...@maui.netwave.net
Nigel Tzeng
In article <macabrus-ya0240800...@news.concentric.net>,
Phoenix <maca...@aol.REMOVE.TO.REPLY.com> wrote:
>I agree. This is one of those classic cases where a commander is faced
>with a field decision, one of the lesser of two evils, where either way a
>lot of bad things are going to happen that he will have to live with the
>rest of his life. There is really no telling where Eddington would've
Heh...I'd like to see a USN Captain violate orders, fire on civilians,
and change US policy without getting court martialed. In any case
his career is over.
Field commanders do not set policy without getting slapped down by the
civilian government...usually very hard. Especially since Sisko could
have simply phoned home. TNG and DS9 is no longer the 18th Century
England/Royal Navy/Horatio Hornblower that TOS was...they have
real-time communication with higher-ups.
There's a long line of Generals who tried to set policy and got
removed (Patton and MacArthur come to mind).
Heck, they even did it once on TNG where Picard had to go slap
down a Captain that was setting policy by attacking Cardassian
ships and bases because they were preparing for war. He was right
but it still ended his career.
I'm not arguing that front-line commanders CANT make policy...but
they don't stay commanders for very long when it it is against
current civilian policy.
>ended. It's already clear he has no respect whatsoever for Cardassian life;
>might he have done the same thing to ANYONE who tried to stop his
>agenda? Would he have attacked Bajor if it meant he wouldn't be stopped?
Eddington is a terrorist. Sisko is a military officer with rules of
engagement and I'd really like to see the Captain of a US naval vessel
fire on a Palistinian refugee camp with tear gas to flush out a
terrorist. And Sisko did worse...he used lethal gas (but folks, if
you leave in time you'll be perfectly safe).
>But even if he were to restrain himself and limit his target to Cardassians,
>it was clear that the sacrifice of one planet is far better than leaving him
>to obliterate many. Be it far better to get an incredibly loose cannon
>under lock and key; even the Maquis might've turned him in eventually.
So you believe that it is Federation policy to "sacrifice planets" to
capture terrorists? You have an interesting view of Federation policy.
You believe that Sisko's actions have not transformed the Federation
from a nominally neutral participant to a hostile power? That you do
not believe that the next time a starship is helpless before Maquis
guns that it will be blown to little bits because of the criminal
activities of one Captain Sisko?
"My grandmother had a heart attack when Sisko bombed our planet. Burn
in hell Star Fleet." Boom.
You believe that Sisko's actions do not endanger Federation citizens
because HIS action has made Federation planets fair game for terrorist
retailiation?
"Hey man, you gas our planet and we lose thousands or
millions. We gas your planet and you lose billions.
We already have nothing to lose...lets play because
we only have to get lucky once to cost you more than
we are ever worth."
>BTW, for what one condemns Sisko to in this situation, one must
>condemn Kirk to as well. Kirk was once willing to annihalate all of
>the people of Eminiar VII if they did not let he and the other members
>of the landing parties go. Neither Scotty nor any of the other officers
>ever questioned Kirk's order. Spock never questioned it. And the
>planet would have been destroyed had Kirk not rescinded the order.
One, Kirk has more latitude then any of the later commanders much as
18th century naval commanders have more latitude then modern naval commanders.
Two, Kirks ship was in a war zone and was in danger of termination. His
crew was directly threatened. Eddington left both Federation vessels
disabled but not destroyed. This hardly sounds like he was going to
start hitting Federation planets or Bajor anytime soon.
Three, Kirk never fired on anyone (except computers). The whole threat
to attack could have been a bluff. Sisko not only pulled the damn
trigger he was getting ready to do it again.
Four, the governments were the ones that had control over the next
phase of the war. If they elected to end hostilitied no one had to
die. The colonist were under more direct threat...either evacuate or
die. If you missed the evac order or were delayed you got gassed.
Sorry, old chap about the wife and children, they were in the wrong
place at the wrong time. Gee, your 90 year old grandmother didn't get
to the evac ship in time? Well, she was probably a terrorist too.
[snip]
>themselves to bring up the casualty count. These complex situations
>and how commanders deal with them is one of the things that makes
>Trek a lot more than a 2-dimensional show. And FWIW, I believe
It would be more than a 2-dimentional show if the result of the
decisions made by the commanders carried forward from episode to episode.
But it does not.
It would be more than a 2-dimentional show if you ever saw any
consequences to career ending moves made by these offices. But, you do
not.
>James G.
Nigel
Micheal Keane
In article <01bc1609$17c90ce0$ca2192cf@default>,
>"I am going to use the acceleration vector control pad to increase engine
>fuel consumprion rate, during which the antillock breaks should allow for
>gyrostational control of the cars relative equlibrium."
>
>Why not just say, " I am going press he gas pedal and go faster. If we go
>too fast I will use the break."
The problem is that Eddington slashed two of your tires, damaged your
axels, wasted your steering and cut your fuel line. =-) NOW it becomes
complicated. =-)
--
Micheal Keane(ae...@u.washington.edu)
Join the Church of Last Thursday and worship Queen Maeve! E-mail me to join.
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia/thursday.htm
"I have too much blood in my caffeine system." -- Netrunner CCG
darkness
Nigel Tzeng (ni...@access1.digex.net) wrote:
: For the Uniform was the worst DS9 episode I have ever seen. In fact
: it was so bad I'm giving up on DS9 entirely because the major characters
: were ruined in this episode. I hope the Dominion blows them all to
: bloody little pieces.
: Why?
That will most likley happen anyways...
: Because Sisko elects to open fire on a civilian population with the
: equivalent of chemical weapons.
OH MY GOD. HE IS A FLAWED PERSON! OH GOD NO!!!! WE CAN'T HAVE FLAWED
PEOPLE IN TREK. GAS EM ALL...
: He did so without authorization.
See Above
: He did so against everything star fleet stands for.
See Above
: He did so because he was frustrated and couldn't think of anything better
: to do.
See Above.
: What's more...the entire bridge crew allow him to do it...not once but
: nearly twice. And then there's not even any sort of reprimand from
: starfleet for his obviously illegal act. He should be on trial right
: next to Eddington...and his senior officers along for the ride.
Who said it was illegal. I don't recall hearing that...
: His actions should have resulted in the second most senior starfleet
: officer (or for that matter any junior officer) to relieve him of
: command. Worf should have done it (which pisses me off since that
: screws up Worf too...). His line shouldn't have been "release safety
: interlocks on torpedoes 3 and 4" but "Sir, you are relieved of
: command for issuing illegal orders to fire upon a civilian
: population. Step away from your console immediately."
Well Worf is not perfect either. Remember when he was put on trial...
: Then Starfleet could have kicked Sisko out of Starfleet and made him
: ambassador to Bajor and moved Worf to command of the Defiant. Someone
: new could have brought in to command DS9 (or just move Kira up to CO)
So in essence promote him? eheh
: Or they could had the Captain from the other starship open fire on
: the planet and Sisko could have relieved him of command.
Why? thats just a cop out. Something people having been complaining about
for years...
: Or they could have done a half dozen other intelligent things.
But they did this instead...
: But no...they did this BS and then tried to make is sound like it was
: the right thing to do...and Sisko and Dax were proud of the action as
: if it was standard Starfleet policy to irradiate planets and they hadn't
: soiled the uniform they wear.
Well I don't agree with you there. I was rather scared by this episode. It
made me think about how bad things have gotten on the station. Sisko is
encouraging his role as Emmisary. He is letting officers get away with
things. He gassed a a planet. Worl fired without thinking. They went to
the Gamma Quad and resuced Odo and Garrak against orders. You know what...
there getting less and less like starfleet officers every day. And more
and more like the people around them. THATS whats scary...
: What's even WORSE is that it was an inherently stupid thing to do. If
: the Maquis was seen to be crazed people who used weapons of mass
: destruction on civilian targets (not hard) then Sisko would have
: gotten the resoures from Starfleet to eradicate them. Instead the
: press is going to (or at least should) crucify Star Fleet and the
: opposition (political opponents who believe in cutting fleet budgets)
: will have a freaking field day.
Theirs press in the Star Trek universe? And yes it WAS a stupid thing to
do... a FLAW... oh GOD no! And I doubt with the rescent encounter with the
Borg, Hostile Klingons and the Dominion around the corner they will be
cutting fleet budgets soon.
: It's on par with the US gassing Baghdad to get Saddam to surrender
: himself.
More like Bush Gassing Bagdad to get at Saddam. but anyways your right.
: Eddington won hands down because he pushed Sisko into not just
: overreacting but massively overreacting. Had Sisko just done nothing
: he would have won. Instead the moral of this episode is that two
: wrongs make a right. Well screw you...not in the star trek universe.
I think you go tthe whole point wrong. I think it was ment to scare us. If
you can't handle a universe with flaws go find one without them.
: So, that's it. I'm done with Star Trek when they start gassing planets to
: catch one guy. And for the record, yes, I do think people who like this
: episode to be utter fools because it IS fundamentally against everything
: Star Trek is about. No IMHO about it.
I say GOOD WRITTING. And it isn't against everything Star Trek is about.
Its shows what NOT to do. I suspect a major charactor change comming up.
: Nigel
: PS Yes, I am a little pissed. Can you tell? :) There is no more
: vehement an opponent than a believer who feels he (or she) has been
: betrayed...and by God this episode has done it for me.
Well poor you...
Bryan Derksen
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) (mal...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Near the very end, they sure did but only to set up the too new franchises.
: TNG still had the touchy feeliness and even Janeway insists on the
: Federation's wonderful superiority. Picard still insisted on the
: Federation's perfection. Only Sisko(thanks to DS9's writers of course) see
: things more clearly/differently.
That's one of my favorite aspects of the character :)
: Like what? The Romulans are crushed, the Klingons are held at arms length,
: and we haven't heard from any other major threat in a while.
The Romulans aren't "crushed"; they lost about 20 Warbirds and some Tal
Shiar field operatives a little while ago, that's all. The Federation lost
39 ships to the Borg at Wolf 359, and Shelby said the fleet would be back
up to strength in about a year; assuming the Romulans are just as capable
I think the Romulans will have replaced their losses by now. (a Warbird
looks about twice as massive as the average Starfleet vessel to me, give
or take).
Speaking of the Borg, *they're* a major threat which we heard from just
recently in "First Contact". :)
: > Definat is a worthy opponent and capable of putting down a small
: > contingency of Klingon BOP's and a Vor'Cha.
:
: I love the Defiant and all but against a full scale Jem' invasion?
Exactly. One ship can only handle a few opponents at once, and we've seen
that the Jem'Hadar can come in fleets numbering in the hundreds. Even if
the Defiant *hadn't* originally been designed to fight in "packs", it
would need help to hold back hordes like that.
: > There has to be some sort of control over the ship. Otherwise, you
: > go out spinning every which way, like the Defiant was doing before Dax
: > regained the ship's balance.
:
: Why would it matter? You are in the middle of space? Whether your ship is
: up or down should not matter
It matters a great deal which direction your ship is pointing when you
fire phasers, try to manuver, etc.. Gyros wouldn't just keep the ship from
rolling uncontrollably, they would keep the ship from pitching and yawing
uncontrollably as well.
: The destruction of a planetary atmosphere? Possible
: > repurcussions from the Federation?
:
: No. They basicly made aplanet unihabitable for humans but it still hunky
: dory for the Cardies. They made another unihabitable by Cardies but okay
: for humans. A trade. balance the same as before.
I expect the Maquis would be upset for a long time about having to leave
their homes like that, even if it was an even trade. Still, it *is* a bit
reset-buttonish...
: If they resolved it slowly over a couple of episodes it would have been
: better. Instead they just solve it in the last coupel of minutes and you
: won't see it again. I would bet good money that you won't see Eddington
: again or hear about those planets.
Unfortunately, that bet would probably be good.
--
Bryan Derksen (bder...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca), Technomage-in-training
http://www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/ (PGP key available)
"Nice guys finish last because bad guys pull out a gun at the starting
line and shoot them in the kneecaps." - Unknown
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)
Michael Johnson <d...@connectnet.com> wrote
> wrote:
>
> FIRST OF ALL...
>
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> THIS EPISODE SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never been so PISSED off at
> a DS9 episode in my life. And I pretty much liked "The Ship", "The
> Darkness and the Light" and "The Begotten" to name a few.
Well there in lies the problem. Bad taste. Please rectify.
<<Snipped meanderings>>
I believe you, who more than likely work in the computer field, would
notice that more readily than I or anyone else. I have a problem whenever
they talk about a virus here and virus there infecting everything. But
since there were som any other things wrong with this episode I just
accepted, this time, and moved on.
--
-- Cronan Thompson, guy among men
Guaranteed offensive material in
10th message. Bring your kids.
Chuck Fullerton
hum...@world.std.com (Franklin Hummel) wrote:
> All I could think of was that BABYLON 5 -is- now what STAR TREK
>-was- once.
Franklin, you took the words right outta my mouth. (although
I must say, DS9 is getting really good, and "For The Uniform" was
great.)
-cHuCK
-------
<*><-o->
Dexter M. Duck
Michael Johnson wrote:
>
> maca...@aol.REMOVE.TO.REPLY.com (Phoenix) wrote:
>
> >I agree. This is one of those classic cases where a commander is faced
> >with a field decision, one of the lesser of two evils, where either way a
> >lot of bad things are going to happen that he will have to live with the
> >rest of his life. There is really no telling where Eddington would've
>
> Eddington would have ended the moment he realized that you were going
> to all the planets he made uninhabitable for Cardy life and make them
> out.
>
> -MJ
His reason would still stand. He could force Cardassians out of the sector
and prevent the Cardassians from establishing colonies any where in the DMZ.
Dexter
--
WARNING: NO UNSOLICTED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL: $500 per message as per US
Code, Title 47 Section 227
"On this dot, tiny lumps of impure water and carbon, of complicated
structure, with somewhat unusual physical and chemical properties, crawl
about for a few years, until they are dissolved again into the elements of
which they are compounded. They divide their time between labour designed
to postpone the moment of dissolution for themselves and frantic struggles
to hasten it for others of their kind."
Bertrand Russell
William Crawford
</lurk>
I just wanted to say that I'm one of the few people around who hasn't seen
this episode yet...but, after just lurking around like Morn in here for the
last few months, I had to get a brief comment in.
So far, I can't recall a DS9 episode EVER that spawned this level of criti-
cism and countercriticism. Maybe the whole 'Are the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian
Order completely gone?' thread, but that was nowhere near as impassioned as the
stuff I've been reading about 'For the Uniform' so far. (Has anyone else pick-
ed up the subtle wordplay? Remember, the episode where Eddington was revealed
as a Maquis was 'For the Cause.') Whether or not the end result is flawed--and
DS9's reality is a deliberately imperfect one--whether or not whomever was jus-
tified in doing whatever to whom, in about seven hours and forty-five minutes
you wouldn't be able to drag me away from my television.
Where I come from, that's a form of power. ^_^
<lurk>
--
+---------------------------------------------+------------------------------+
| Bill Crawford - ah...@detroit.freenet.org | Genom Heavy Industries, Dev. |
| ------------------------------------------- | Complex West |
| "Remember when I told you we had no future? | -------------------------- |
| Well...this is it!" | "We are your everything." |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
James McFadden
d...@connectnet.com (Michael Johnson) wrote:
>maca...@aol.REMOVE.TO.REPLY.com (Phoenix) wrote:
>>That (in parentheses) is probably the sole reason he isn't being prosecuted.
>>If it was against the law, Starfleet would be looking the other way. But
>>we have no idea so far if it's against the law. But, keep in mind, if it was
>>a Maquis colony, then it is NOT a Federation world (it's a Cardassian
>>world now by treaty).
>Then if it is a Cardassian world what Sisko has just gone and done is
>commit an act of WAR.
>>> So you believe that it is Federation policy to "sacrifice planets" to
>>> capture terrorists? You have an interesting view of Federation policy.
>>>
>>I never said that. You know it. Don't put words in my mouth.
>>It's quite clear Eddington is no everyday case, so "policy" cannot
>>possibly apply to this situation.
>Commiting acts of war cannot possibly apply to this situation. And
>there WERE alternatives. You simply make all the planets he has made
>uninhabitable for Cardy life ALSO uninhabitable for Maquis life. If he
>destroys them all then he has nothing more to fight for and has just
>lost everything. His whole concept hinges on the hope that these
>disputed planets will still be able to support Maquis people. Remove
>that and you remove the problem of him trashing worlds.
>>The Federation had taken military action against the Maquis before
>>this time, so it already was being a hostile power. In any event, the Maquis
>>do not have unlimited resources, and they receive much unofficial support
>>from within the Federation, so I don't believe we'll be seeing a lot
>>of retribution, unless it is against Sisko himself. THAT just may happen.
>Hmm... SOMEONE figured out the Maquis do not have unlimited resources.
>And how do you explain Eddington after making the Defiant defenseless
>having left the scene WITHOUT the Defiant so that he could sell off
>the parts and fund Maquis activities for many years???
>>> You believe that Sisko's actions do not endanger Federation citizens
>>> because HIS action has made Federation planets fair game for terrorist
>>> retailiation?
>>>
>>The Maquis can't afford to risk losing their lifeline of support from
>>within the Federation.
>They disabled *2* Federation ships!!! If they don't take advantage of
>that then they deserve whatever death they get.
>>> It would be more than a 2-dimentional show if you ever saw any
>>> consequences to career ending moves made by these offices. But, you do
>>> not.
>>>
>>Side characters, yes; main characters, no. Someone more than Kirk
>>should be busted as some point, I would agree.
>In anything approaching reality the moment Sisko gave the order to
>launch a planet-killer at an unarmed planet with a civilian population
>his career along with every career of every person on board that ship
>would have been *OVER*. And they would be lucky to not be facing a war
>crimes trial for crimes against humanity.
>>And I've already said Sisko shouldn't get off scot free but be court-martialed,
>>at the very least because Starfleet can't have people going around doing
>>big things like nuking planets or blowing up their own starships without at
>>least being held to question for it. It is my opinion that Sisko's actions can be
>>defended, but barely; he was definitely being a loose cannon.
>He should face same penalty he gave every civilian on that planet who
>just might have been at the wrong place at the wrong time.. DEATH. The
>moment he launched the planet-killer he BECAME the enemy.
>>But I'm far from sure that Sisko not being held to account is entirely
>>unintentional as part of the Eddington course of events. Part of the
>>reason this story exists is to point out, at least from Eddington's point
>>of view, that the Federation has a dark side to it, and Starfleet looking
>>the other way on Sisko's actions may well be part of it.
>A *DARK* side?!?!?! Jesus Christ, they are no better than the fucking
>Vorlons. Killing an entire planet in order make sure they get their
>man.
> -MJ
Sisko's actions were really not that crazy, since he knew he was not
really going to go around attacking any more planets. Also, I thought
that Sisko's log said something about fixing the planet later on. I
don't think it was a fully inhabited planet like Earth, there were
just a few settlements on it. And he had to stop Eddington not because
of his obsession, but because he was going around destroying the
atmosphere of many worlds, and he had to be stopped before the Cardies
started going after the Maquis on there own.
Just my 3 cents (keep the change)
JMM
cosc...@bayou.uh.edu
Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr) (mal...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
[Snip]
: <<snipped>>
: > : Doesn't matter. Unnessecary.
: >
: > I don't agree. They were working on manually controlling the ship so
: > it was necessary. Now that part with manual control did go on for a
: > tad too long, but IMO it was still well placed and necessary (if a
: > little overdone).
: Think about like this. I am telling you ow to drive a car:
: "I am going to use the acceleration vector control pad to increase engine
: fuel consumprion rate, during which the antillock breaks should allow for
: gyrostational control of the cars relative equlibrium."
: Why not just say, " I am going press he gas pedal and go faster. If we go
: too fast I will use the break."
But this isn't a car we're talking about, it's something much more
substantial and much more complex. Many people are required to
operate it, unlike a car which is trivial by comparison. A
better comparison would be a large vehicle that required multiple
personnel to operate, like a battle ship, or a large plane.
[Snip]
: > But the humans had to be evacuated.
: And moved to the planet that the Cardies evacuated. The Cardies that
: evacuated that planet will move to the former Maquis planet and so forth
: Clearly this is of great
: > importance.
: Not really. A fair swap.
The displacement, the very attack has its own consequences.
: Furthermore, the way Sisko appears is of tremendous
: > importance.
: I would bet money that it will wither be left hanging or never mentioned
: again
That would be bad if it were. I fear that you may be correct as
well. This is the sort of thing that should hang around, something
that should come back to haunt Sisko, or reappear in the show.
: Now we see a Captain, who out of lust for revenge
: > poisoned an entire planet of humans to capture one man.
: We also see a Maquis guy willing to give himself up because he sees it as
: just..
Yup.
: This
: > puts Sisko in an entirely different light. We've seen the vengeful,
: > obsessive side of Sisko.
: As we have before...
But to this degree?
: > : They traded planets. No biggie
: >
: > Having a person release deadly materials in your atmosphere so that
: > you have to haul ass is a biggie. Ok, so maybe no one died (who
: > knows), but the fact remains that what seems like attempted
: > genocide occurred.
: The same was done to the Cardassians. Now that they have traded things go
: back to theway they were before
But the bitter feelings still reside. The Cardassians hate the Marquis
more than ever, the Marquis hate the Federation more than ever,
and the Federation wants the Marquis gone more than ever. Furthermore,
the stage may just be set for relations between Federation and
Cardassia to go down a tad if the Cardassians, spurred by this
chemical attack, decide that the Federation has either been too
lax, or even in cahoots with the Marquis (the trilithium might
be perceived as a clever way of swapping planets). Of course whether
or not any of this will ever come to fruition is mere speculation,
and there are enough plots in DS9 to keep something like this
from occurring due to time constraints. But it would be nice if
this did come back to haunt the Federation.
: > : It was too. Watch it again They specifically say the CArdassians are
: moving
: > : to the former Maquis planet.....
: >
: > Yes but again this move has consequences.
: Like what?
Again how the survivors feel, how the Marquis feel, etc... Unfortunately
the primary consequence -- Sisko being in trouble does not seem to
be forthcoming, but this is something that should happen.
[Snip]
: > : And what would you give Macrocosm?
: >
: > Refresh my memory, what was Macrocosm about again? It's pretty
: > rare when I pay attention to a show's title, I've only done so
: > very recently.
: The viruses chasing Janeway.
Oh a Voyager episode. I rarely watch Voyager (my stomach isn't
that strong). Haven't seen Macrocosm BTW :)
: > [Snip]
: > By the end of the show, the state of the scene had changed. Hardly
: > a reset.
: Not my any measure. OTher than Eddington, being captured nothing changed
I suppose we have different views of what "change" is. I'm thinking
more on the order of tensions and character development, but it seems
like you are thinking about more substantial things.
: > : it does when nothing happens of substance
: >
: > Capturing a rebel, revealing that the hero has an extremely obsessive,
: > perhaps even EVIL side, and juggling people on planets does not
: > count as substance?
: We have seen every SF captain have an 'evil side'. Kirk's was even
: physically manifested.
Yeah but Kirk's evil side was an entirely different person, there was
a justification for it existing. Other SF captains do have bad sides
as well, but again have they shown the extent of their evil like
Sisko did? What Sisko did was callous, and it was out of a personal
vendetta, and he is the hero -- I'd like to see another so-called
hero do something like that.
: <<snipped>>
: > : It gets worse as more and more bald guys apear.
: >
: > Yup. At least with a few you might think that they don't give
: > a crap, or that they are pathological cases of balding that
: > can't be cured. But after a while...
: Perhaps they just don't bother. Why add hair? I am sure there are species
: outthere who find it attractive to see themselves in your head
*ROFL*
: <<snipped>.
: > : ALien Nation. He plaed George Fransico.
: >
: > So that's where I saw him! Yes, GEORGE! Ok, thanks a ton for
: > clearing that up as well.
: Well Eddington was in Krull. Between them this was a virtual SF/Fant
: convention
Hmmmm can't say I saw Krull (unless I saw it and the title escaped
me as well).
: <<snipped>>
--
Cya,
Ahmed
You'll stink, yer clothes'll shrink, yer whites'll be as black as ink,
Your best red jumper turns to pink,
All koomping, loomping wet.
We've been, have you been to get your dirty washing clean?
Are you clean, you couldn't have been to the Ashbrooke Launderette,
Oi!
"The Ashbrooke Launderette" by The Toy Dolls
Michael Allan Thomson
Michael Johnson wrote:
>the other way on Sisko's actions may well be part of it.
>
> A *DARK* side?!?!?! Jesus Christ, they are no better than the fucking
> Vorlons. Killing an entire planet in order make sure they get their
> man.
>
> -MJ
He didn't KILL an entire planet. He made it unihabbitable for Human
life, to prevent the Maquis from destroying more worlds. No one could
have stopped Eddington.. Sisko had to do it.
Would you have preferred Eddingston to have destroyed all the Cardassian
worlds?
Mike
-*-mum...@-*-netcom.com-*-
In article <01bc1677$7cb9c540$be2092cf@default>,
>> wrote:
>>
>> FIRST OF ALL...
>>
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> THIS EPISODE SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never been so PISSED off at
>> a DS9 episode in my life. And I pretty much liked "The Ship", "The
>> Darkness and the Light" and "The Begotten" to name a few.
>
>Well there in lies the problem. Bad taste. Please rectify.
>
><<Snipped meanderings>>
>
>I believe you, who more than likely work in the computer field, would
>notice that more readily than I or anyone else. I have a problem whenever
>they talk about a virus here and virus there infecting everything. But
>since there were som any other things wrong with this episode I just
>accepted, this time, and moved on.
>
Well, as someone who is in the computer industry, I can verify his findings.
Key systems of operation in any computer environment are seperated for various
reasons (the primary reason is to keep one job from screwing up the operating
environment of another... this reason applies to viruses [viri?]). It is also
standard procedure when there is any major security breach (like the head of
starfleet security on the station becoming a traitor) for the computers to be
given a *REAL* good going over by trained computer security experts. I get
the impression from this episode that after Eddington left they changed a few
passwords (if that) and went on with things as normal.
However, there was far too much other glaring treknobabble bullcrap for me to
comment on this one (originally :).
--
Glenn Lamb - mum...@netcom.com -- Finger mum...@netcom.com for PGP Key.
PGPprint = E3 0F DE CC 94 72 D1 1A 2D 2E A9 08 6B A0 CD 82
Remove -*- before replying.
Chris Blaise
On 8 Feb 1997 06:04:53 GMT, "Cronan Thompson(back to
normal....errrrrr)" <mal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> : 7. The ending sucked. To reset buttonish.
>>
>> On the contrary, the ending was anything but reset buttonish. That
>> bombing the planet with trilithium, that was for real and it was
>> without Starfleet's permission.
>
>But it is now unihabitable by humans. Not Cardassians. They made that
>clear. The Cardies can't live on that planet Eddington bombed but humans
>can and vice versa for Sisko's bombing
That's not neccessarily a reset button.
The big thing is Sisko's actions. He didn't commit genocide,
but as far as Starfleet is concerned, I'd say he came pretty close.
It was a huge gamble and while it paid off, it seems that betwen that
kind of risk and singlehandedly throwing off the Bajoran induction
into the Federation, Starfleet has their collective finger pretty
close to Sisko's file.
Not to mention the different attitude Worf and Kira displayed
when Worf was told to fire the torpedos. It was of absolute horror!
I want to believe that they can't look at him again in quite the same
way.
My feeling is that there's another story here. I wouldn't be
surprised to see a Sisko courtmarshall story before the season's done
(mabye headed by Eddington's Marqui supporters in SF). I definetely
didn't come out of it thinking "status quo".
I'd also say that DS9 is the best of all series in setting up
threads and executing them further down the road. I won't hold my
breath in seeing this issue resolved, but I think the chances are
pretty good.
TTYL
Chris
Dr. Feelgood
In article <5djv5r$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>, d...@connectnet.com
(Michael Johnson) wrote:
> "Cronan Thompson(back to normal....errrrrr)" <mal...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> FIRST OF ALL...
>
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> THIS EPISODE SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never been so PISSED off at
> a DS9 episode in my life. And I pretty much liked "The Ship", "The
> Darkness and the Light" and "The Begotten" to name a few.
>
> The first thing that ticked me off was that little thing at the start
> with Eddington having planted a "cascade virus" in order to disable
> the Defiant. While other people may see that as technobabble it is a
> pure and utter impossibility. And if it was Starfleet would have to be
> the stupidest motherfuckers on the planet to build a ship that way.
> First, for a virus to "work" and disable the controls on ALL systems
> the operating system code for EACH and every system would HAVE to be
> in writeable memory. Second, all of the systems would have to be
> linked together. The main reason you KEEP the systems seperate is for
> the very reason that if one system crashes.. say helm, then you still
> have the sensor arrays and library computer. These people who write
> for the show seem to have absolutely *NO* idea how the Defiant HAS to
> work.
>
> Now, assume such a thing was possible and it wiped your memory. Would
> you reprogram the system? No. Obviously you have a backup locked in
> the captain's quarters of EACH and every byte of code on something
> akin to a CDROM which cannot be written to and you simply reformat
> your memory, reload it, reboot the system, and take off.
> This is the
> SAME scenario that would be used for DS9. Does Odo go weeding through
> the computers for viruses? No, the express reason being is that you
> never know if you got all of them. What you do is just like the
> Defiant... erase everything and go from backup. Nothing more is needed
> but these people seem to have no clue how technology works.
>
Impossible for a virus to wipe all computer systems you say, yet you the
go on to say you would fix the problem by first "reformat"(ing) your
memory.
Remember, if something can be done by authorized personnel, it can be very
difficult for anyone else to do it - but never impossible. as far as
separate systems goes, all that's needed is separate virii and
synchronization.
As for backups, remember how long Eddington was around and the kind of
access he was authorized for (never mind the level of acccess he actually
had). I'm not about to trust anything short of a full reconstruction of
the computer systems, starting with little more than textbook foundations.
Given that the Defiant is a ship unique in the federation it seems to
follow that some manual calibration of such a bare bones solution would be
necessary.
I think it's not a question of what is possible, so much as it is a
question of how much these people can accomplish. Eddington would have to
be an incredible genius, and O'Brien's people also incredibly well
trained.
> Now, assume the case that OK the virus took out the memory and its
> gonna take a protracted length of time to fix it. Does it even sound
> plausible that once the Defiant was defenseless Eddington does not
> board the ship, offload the crew, and then strip the Defiant for parts
> and sell those which he cannot use? I'm sure there is some impressive
> weaponry on board that would fund Maquis activities for a good time to
> come. But does he? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. He leaves!
A ship that is dead in space is one thing, boarding a ship full of well
armed starfleet officers is something else entirely, especially if you
have a bit of a hero complex and want to:
a: avoid killing any humans.
b: make sure that when you are caught it is known that you committed no
crimes against humanity directly.
Now the Les Miserable parallel was weak, but the hero/martyr complex was
quite apparent in Eddington. And as I will elaborate upon further - I
think he planned to get caught and that it will be one of the most
important events preparing the Maquis for greater power.
> Now. Fast forward to the Badlands scenario. Supposedly Eddington put
> out a fake sensor image. Why doesn't Sisko just launch a very light
> weapon at the sensor image to see if it is real? Nothing that would
> damage a ship but if it moves than it is real.
Stupid tactical error, it happens to the best of them. Especially to a man
like Sisko who has never suffered defeat and humiliation to this extent
before.
> Then apparently we come
> out of the Badlands to find out that Eddington disabled a Federation
> STARSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does he take it over and use it to kick the
> Defiant's ASS? Does he attach tractor beams to it and take it into
> warp with him so he can scuttle it for parts? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You
> would think money grows on trees for the Marquis because Eddington
> leaves the ship to go destroy a planet! This touches on another gripe
> of mine. It is just TOO damn easy to take out the big ships of the
> Federation. Even given TOTAL and complete knowledge of both ships
> would you expect to be able to take over an air craft carrier with a
> cruiser? Fuck no, but the Maquis seem to be able to do it with ease.
We've established that Eddington is a tactical genius. It is not
impossible for a cruiser to DISABLE an aircraft carrier. Boarding her or
even staying near her would be suicide however. Refer to above comments.
>
> So now we move toward the ending. Sisko launches a catastrophic strike
> on an entire planet rendering it useless to anyone for 50 YEARS. He
> then claims he'll do it to all the planets of the Maquis and Eddington
> crumbles like a fucking TWIG! Here is a guy who took out *2*
> Federation ships in the same episode and yet acts like milktoast cause
> Sisko took out a planet. Have the writers EVER played chess? Just
> because someone takes a pawn is no reason to suddenly RESIGN!!! I
> think i just about puked all over myself when I saw this. Obviously,
> with Eddington's "MASTER" cunning he simply uses it to retake the
> Defiant again. If he can't then he just has one of his ships ram it.
Have you ever played chess? A sacrifice can be the turning point of a game.
Eddington is now seen as the righteous martyr whose only crime was to try
to stop the cardassians and the federation from forcing people out of
there ancestral homes. As a last resort he did bomb a cardassian military
base (all their colonies are really secret military bases, of course).
With great courage and valor he did defeat the federation ships hunting
him with ease, but he never killed a single human being. Only when the
Federation showed it's true colors and fired chemical weapons upon
innocent civilians did he voluntarily sacrifice himself for a just cause.
He made the Maquis look like valiant defenders of humanity. He made the
Federation and especially Sisko look like bumbling fools and homicidal
maniacs. He gave the cause a martyr and a hero (without even dying), as
well as showing them a face upon which to focus their hate and frustation
at the loss of their great leader.
You think the Maquis had some support from federation citizens before?
Just wait.
>
> Oh, and a trend that has been popping up in DS9 episodes as of late.
> Officers seem to commit court-martialable acts AT WILL with no
> problem. First Worf commited an outright atrocity in Let He who is
> Without Sin by screwing with a planet's enviornmental system without
> permission putting EVERY single person on the planet in danger and now
> with this episode Sisko launchs planet destroying weapons without
> permission with no reprecussions whatsoever.
Missed the Worf thing. Can't be to sure about that no repurcussions thing
yet, obviously Dax thinks it's not a problem. I'm hoping the writers
didn't seriously fuck up, and have actually planned for a realistic future
on this thing. The worst possible move for the Fed's right now would be to
let Sisko live. It's too bad, until the writers made him do this Sisko was
one of my favorite ST characters. I really, really, liked this episode
until I realized that truly was Trilithium in those torpedos.
Grand Admiral Cronan Thomspon(tactical god)
Michael Johnson <d...@connectnet.com> wrote
> anything resembling Science Fiction or the greatest thing since potato
> chips but for what they were they were ok in my book. "For the Uni"
> however is a crime among men.
Bad but not that bad. I can understand you having an aversion tosomethign
that others seem to laud mindlessly. I have had experience with such
things. PArticularly when I reviewed the Ship and FC...
> The long and the short is that the virus would *ONLY* be able to work
> if Starfleet had absolutely no clue how to structure computer systems
> or make that sure your code is not corrupted. *I* can think of ways to
> make it impossible for Eddington to do his thing, and when I can do it
> that doesn't say a whole lot about Starfleet. :)
Well ST is notoriously bad at doing anything in a slightly realistc sense.
Ben Kidd
In regards to lots of people's agruments about the morality of Capt.
Sisko's actions in contaminating the Maquis Colony, it seems to me
that the major problem is simply that his actions seem to bee grossly
non-Federation in nature. Using biochemical weapons of mass destruction
on civilian populations is something that deserves a response, especially
if most nation/states have such weapons. For the Cardassians, Klingons,
Romulans et. al. nuking every single available planet of the Maquis
seems like a perfectly reasonable solution. Sisko probably saved the
Federation and the rest of the universe billions of lives by demonstrating
a willingness to use such weapons.
I'm assuming that previous to Eddington's attacks there had existed a
general belief that the use of such weapons was undesireable because
of all the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) possibilities. Nobody
uses chemical/biological weapons because of those types of drawbacks.
The only way that such a threat will work to prevent your own people
from genocide is if the other side really believes that if you were
pushed far enough, you WOULD destroy the world. The reason there was
never a US/Soviet nuke exchange is that both sides believed the other
was crazy enough to launch.
A few years ago I had lunch with some gentlemen who worked in the
Defense Ministries of Poland and the Czech republic, and one of the things
they mentioned during the conversation was that the Warsaw Pact had always
been afraid of Americans because they had demonstrated the willingness and
the ability to use atomic weapons on the Japanese rather than sacrifice
American soldiers in an invasion. How could the Fedration be taken
seriously as a galactic power if it is not able to use violence. Sharing
the principles of Ghandi and King is commendable, but it is much easier
to do out of power than when you have responsibility for the lives of
billions of people on your hands. I think Sisko's decision, if it is
handled properly (which it won't be), should have serious repercussions
on the entire quadrant. I don't think the Klingons can consider the Feds
as weak and not warlike enough to oppose their domination of the quadrant.
Sisko made the right decision, he did not make the moral decision.
Machiavelli was right, it is better to be feared than loved. If we are
forced to become monsters in order to battle with them, so what? It is
better to become a monster than to be eaten by one.
--
Ben Kidd
Benjam...@baylor.edu
Nigel Tzeng
In article <macabrus-ya0240800...@news.concentric.net>,
Phoenix <maca...@aol.REMOVE.TO.REPLY.com> wrote:
>Tzeng) wrote:
[snip]
>IS it? Through the majority of TOS there was a lot of real-time
>communication with higher-ups. They could've simply called
>them up too, and did a few times, even in the movies.
I was always under the impression that the basis of Kirk was the
Hornblower character. The movies came much later (and presumably
subspace communication got better).
>> I'm not arguing that front-line commanders CANT make policy...but
>> they don't stay commanders for very long when it it is against
>> current civilian policy.
>>
>Trouble is, in the Federation's case, we're not sure exactly what the
>civilian policy is. It may be pretty dark in certain spots indeed; just
>recently policy advocated yanking the baby Changeling away from
>Odo. Being a child aside, it wasn't even a Federation citizen, which
>could make any foreigner fear what might happen if they lost a child
>there....
I can only assume that the Federation, as a matter of policy, does
not condone the use of chemical weapons. Certainly the use of weapons
of mass destruction without authorization is not policy. In fact
I would assume that a US naval officer in the same predicament would
be lucky to receive life imprisonment.
[snip]
>That (in parentheses) is probably the sole reason he isn't being prosecuted.
>If it was against the law, Starfleet would be looking the other way. But
>we have no idea so far if it's against the law. But, keep in mind, if it was
Aren't we grasping at straws here? Not against the law?
>a Maquis colony, then it is NOT a Federation world (it's a Cardassian
>world now by treaty). A different set of rules would apply, possible more
>lenient (and potentially questionable) than those that apply within the
>Federation.
Somehow I don't thing that it being a Cardassian planet makes it any
better. Do you really think that gassing a Palestinian camp in Isreal
is going to get you in less trouble than gassing a Cuban camp in Florida?
>> >But even if he were to restrain himself and limit his target to Cardassians,
>> >it was clear that the sacrifice of one planet is far better than leaving him
>> >to obliterate many. Be it far better to get an incredibly loose cannon
>> >under lock and key; even the Maquis might've turned him in eventually.
>>
>> So you believe that it is Federation policy to "sacrifice planets" to
>> capture terrorists? You have an interesting view of Federation policy.
>>
>I never said that. You know it. Don't put words in my mouth.
>It's quite clear Eddington is no everyday case, so "policy" cannot
>possibly apply to this situation.
Okay...I left your statement up there. Please explain how "it was
clear that the sacrifice of one planet is far better than leaving him
to obliterate many" is that far from "sacrifice planets to capture
terrorists"? There were other ways to resolve the issue...getting the
Cardassians to reneogitate the treaty comes to mind. Its not like
they can do anything expansionist for a while...those colonies are as
good as gone and only the Federation is propping it up.
BTW: It is not clear (to me) that responding tit for tat is all that
clear a course. There are all sorts of implications (mostly bad) to
doing so.
>> You believe that Sisko's actions have not transformed the Federation
>> from a nominally neutral participant to a hostile power? That you do
>> not believe that the next time a starship is helpless before Maquis
>> guns that it will be blown to little bits because of the criminal
>> activities of one Captain Sisko?
>>
>The Federation had taken military action against the Maquis before
>this time, so it already was being a hostile power. In any event, the Maquis
Against military targets. We are supposed to be the good guys
remember? This is blatant attack on a civillian population.
>do not have unlimited resources, and they receive much unofficial support
>from within the Federation, so I don't believe we'll be seeing a lot
>of retribution, unless it is against Sisko himself. THAT just may happen.
Possibly but the conflict just got a whole lot uglier with respect to
the Federation. Hell, even the Cardassians weren't gassing planets.
I'd say that if Starfleet personnel had any self respect they'd resign
in droves if command let this one slide. There are damn few naval
officers in the service of any nation that sign on to gas civillians.
The fact that the Maquis "started it" isn't an excuse.
>> You believe that Sisko's actions do not endanger Federation citizens
>> because HIS action has made Federation planets fair game for terrorist
>> retailiation?
>>
>The Maquis can't afford to risk losing their lifeline of support from
>within the Federation. If they did terrorist acts against innocent
>Federation civilian (or even military) installations, that would surely
>make them lose a lot of support. And they can't risk getting Starfleet
>REALLY ticked off at them. If they were to retaliate, their means of
>subsistence and their very lives would be in jeopardy. The best they
>can do is take the punch.
I'll concede this point. It would be dumb move to retaliate against a
Federation member planet.
[snip]
>> Two, Kirks ship was in a war zone and was in danger of termination. His
>> crew was directly threatened. Eddington left both Federation vessels
>> disabled but not destroyed. This hardly sounds like he was going to
>> start hitting Federation planets or Bajor anytime soon.
>>
>The Enterprise wasn't in very much danger at all. It took what Scotty
>called "pot shots" which could have destroyed the ship if no shields were
>up, and the threat was defused altogether by moving the ship out of
>range. Kirk personally knew this, having ordered the ship to maximum
>phaser range. Eddington (theoretically) *could* go after Bajor, like DS9,
What I meant was that the landing party was in direct danger. Presumably
nukes wouldn't go through the E's shields anyway.
[snip]
>> Three, Kirk never fired on anyone (except computers). The whole threat
>> to attack could have been a bluff. Sisko not only pulled the damn
>> trigger he was getting ready to do it again.
>>
>There was no way for him to guarantee he could get out of that
>situation, or that he could even contact the ship again, so it probably
>wasn't a bluff. He wasn't even willing to rescind the order at
Can't tell if Scotty would have pulled the trigger. Can't say if it
was or wasn't a bluff.
>gunpoint. Kirk appeared willing in that show to do whatever it took
>to get his people out of there. However, I have to admit he was not
I think that Kirk understood the risks of being a Starfleet officer.
I don't think that he would have fired on a civilian population to
save military lives. Phaser strikes against the military, government
and so forth...yes. Planetary bombardment? No.
[snip]
>> It would be more than a 2-dimentional show if you ever saw any
>> consequences to career ending moves made by these offices. But, you do
>> not.
>>
>Side characters, yes; main characters, no. Someone more than Kirk
>should be busted as some point, I would agree. And I've already said
>Sisko shouldn't get off scot free but be court-martialed, at the very least
>because Starfleet can't have people going around doing big things like
>nuking planets or blowing up their own starships without at least being
>held to question for it. It is my opinion that Sisko's actions can be
>defended, but barely; he was definitely being a loose cannon. However,
>all he was was on a revenge trip, not a genocide trip like Eddington.
Genocide? I don't think that Eddington killed any more people than
Sisko. Not to justify his actions, because he is a criminal. They're
expected to do bad things. Starfleet officers in command of starships
on the other hand...
>But I'm far from sure that Sisko not being held to account is entirely
>unintentional as part of the Eddington course of events. Part of the
>reason this story exists is to point out, at least from Eddington's point
>of view, that the Federation has a dark side to it, and Starfleet looking
>the other way on Sisko's actions may well be part of it. I for one find
>it hard to believe that anyone is giving Sisko a high-profile revenge
>trip portrayal without having something in mind in the future. It's
>a lot of writing trouble to go to not to follow up on it.
Dark side? Sorry...shady diplomatic dealings is dark side. Tailhook
is dark side. Cheating is dark side. Drug dealers is dark side.
Black market or covert weapon sales is dark side. Admirals with
personal agendas or thirst for power is dark side. Gassing planets
is something else entierly.
>--
>James G.
Nigel
Nigel Tzeng
In article <5djov0$1ru$1...@news2.alpha.net>,
darkness <dark...@hawk.phantasy.com> wrote:
>Nigel Tzeng (ni...@access1.digex.net) wrote:
>: Because Sisko elects to open fire on a civilian population with the
>: equivalent of chemical weapons.
>
>OH MY GOD. HE IS A FLAWED PERSON! OH GOD NO!!!! WE CAN'T HAVE FLAWED
>PEOPLE IN TREK. GAS EM ALL...
ROTFLMAO
Thank you. This was the most humorous thing I have read in a long time.
I don't suppose you own a baseball team do you?
[snip]
>: What's more...the entire bridge crew allow him to do it...not once but
>: nearly twice. And then there's not even any sort of reprimand from
>: starfleet for his obviously illegal act. He should be on trial right
>: next to Eddington...and his senior officers along for the ride.
>
>Who said it was illegal. I don't recall hearing that...
This is the second time I've seen this. Heeelllloo...anyone home?
Normally I dont assume that the person on the other end of a news
article is slow but please...this must be the lamest excuse for Sisko's
action to date...no...tee hee...sorry, I'm being unfair...that he is a
flawed person is the real winner...
[a good 30 second belly laugh here...oh god my sides hurt...]
>: Then Starfleet could have kicked Sisko out of Starfleet and made him
>: ambassador to Bajor and moved Worf to command of the Defiant. Someone
>: new could have brought in to command DS9 (or just move Kira up to CO)
>
>So in essence promote him? eheh
Yes...if they really need him that bad on Bajor...otherwise hang him.
I think hanging is the best course.
[snip]
>: But no...they did this BS and then tried to make is sound like it was
>: the right thing to do...and Sisko and Dax were proud of the action as
>: if it was standard Starfleet policy to irradiate planets and they hadn't
>: soiled the uniform they wear.
>
>Well I don't agree with you there. I was rather scared by this episode. It
>made me think about how bad things have gotten on the station. Sisko is
Scared? It's not scary...it's stupid. I can bend my will to support
a massive amount of suspension of disbelief to enjoy Trek...but this
is so out of character for any starfleet officer who is not a) insane
or b) evil. Not, bend the rules evil but honest to god Nazi evil.
(Damn...just killed this thread)
[its a flaw deleted again]
Well...thanks for the laughs...
Nigel
Brad Stethem
Michael Johnson <d...@connectnet.com> wrote in article
<5djv5r$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>...
> in writeable memory. Second, all of the systems would have to be
> linked together. The main reason you KEEP the systems seperate is for
> the very reason that if one system crashes.. say helm, then you still
> have the sensor arrays and library computer. These people who write
> for the show seem to have absolutely *NO* idea how the Defiant HAS to
> work.
Maybe by the 24th century virus technology has advanced enough to do what that
virus did. Or maybe it wasn't one virus. Eddington could have planted the
same virus in every system on board.
About him taking the Federation starships for scrap, I don't think that would
work. The Defiant was disabled and would have been easy to take, but you have
to remember that the Melinche (sp?) wasn't too far away. IIRC, Eddington was
less than half an hour away from the badlands, but the Melinche was going to
get there first to block his escape route. That's when he turned and activated
his virus. If he did try to take over the Defiant, the Melinche would have
been there before they could take very many parts. Especially since an
Excelsior-class ship is probably faster than the Defiant.
He couldn't have towed the Melinche to steal parts since the Captain would have
self-destructed the ship before he would allow it to be taken by the Maquis.
Even if he could board it and take control of the ship, it wasn't going
anywhere without massive repairs.
Brad Stethem
Michael Johnson <d...@connectnet.com> wrote in article
<5dk03g$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>...
> Hey man, I'm with you here. And how did you like that when Eddington
> disabled the Defiant and didn't even bother to take their vessel from
> them to go strip it for parts? Like he is gonna just LET them go after
> the trouble he went through to disable it.
The Milinche was less than 20 minutes away. Remember, it was going to the edge
of the Badlands to cut off Eddington, then he turned and activated his virus.
At that point he was only 20 minutes away from the badlands. An
Excelsior-class ship is probably faster than the Defiant and the Maquis raider
as well, so it could get to the Defiants position in less than 20 minutes.
That's not enough time to strip the Defiant for parts.
Brian Barjenbruch
Here's what I have a hard time believing about Eddington. Remember in
'Our Man Bashir,' when Sisko and the others were beamed off that runabout
just before it exploded, and ended up trapped in Bashir's holosuite
program? Eddington worked to <save> their lives in that episode...
Don't misunderstand, everyone's probably grateful that he did that, but
why would he bother? He is Maquis. Given this, he's probably <been> a
Maquis ever since he first arrived on DS9. Why would he care about saving
the lives of Starfleet officers? As a Maquis, he wouldn't mind very much
if they all died. In fact, he might actively work toward this end. Why,
then, did he bother to try and save their lives in the Bashir episode in
the first place? He obviously didn't care about them...
--
Brian
Michael Johnson
-*-mumford-*-@-*-netcom.com-*- wrote:
>Well, as someone who is in the computer industry, I can verify his findings.
>Key systems of operation in any computer environment are seperated for various
>reasons (the primary reason is to keep one job from screwing up the operating
>environment of another... this reason applies to viruses [viri?]). It is also
>standard procedure when there is any major security breach (like the head of
>starfleet security on the station becoming a traitor) for the computers to be
>given a *REAL* good going over by trained computer security experts.
Actually, you should be able to just build a program to do a byte by
byte comparison between both your working system and your "clean of
any damn corruption" backup. The backup is then the only thing you
need to really keep secure and then use that to flush out any suspect
code. The main problem doing that these days is storage space but in
the future I would assume that they would have a non-writeable high
storage device that could safeguard the contents of all of DS9's
pertinant code. That device would then be kept in Odo's quarters and
used to scan for changes to the system on a daily basis. Barring the
device getting switched out it would make DS9's computers completely
secure. At the same time you are only going to need to make say the
targeting system computer code only once and it should not need to be
changed so it should be able to put into hardware into some type of
embedded non-writeable system chip. Then barring a chip swap that code
is hackproof. A chip swap could be prevented in the same mirroring
technique used above.
>I get the impression from this episode that after Eddington left they changed
>a few passwords (if that) and went on with things as normal.
That and a complete comparison of every byte of op sys code to your
backup should be all that is needed.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
"Brad Stethem" <bste...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>Michael Johnson <d...@connectnet.com> wrote in article
><5djv5r$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>...
>> in writeable memory. Second, all of the systems would have to be
>> linked together. The main reason you KEEP the systems seperate is for
>> the very reason that if one system crashes.. say helm, then you still
>> have the sensor arrays and library computer. These people who write
>> for the show seem to have absolutely *NO* idea how the Defiant HAS to
>> work.
>Maybe by the 24th century virus technology has advanced enough to do what that
>virus did. Or maybe it wasn't one virus. Eddington could have planted the
>same virus in every system on board.
Nope. It is an impossibility. It has ALWAYS been possible since day
one to keep a computer system totally secure from viruses, hackers are
another story but for viruses the problem has always been cost. Here
is an example. You will ALWAYS start with a new computer knowing that
it is clean. Now once you load the programs on it(assuming THEY aren't
corrupted) you have a clean system. You then take your op sys
partition and burn it to a non-writeable disk which you then remove
from the system and lock in a safe. Every morning thereafter you take
the disk out of the safe, put it in the computer, and completely
reformat your op sys partition on the drive and then copy all the
files from your backup disk back to your working drive. You then scan
all other partitions for any executable programs and expunge them.
Once done this you have a clean system ready for use at the start of
the day. You can also do this on an hourly basis if you are really
that paranoid. Now, with the Defiant's computer systems the code for
them should be in HARDWARE. Preferably non-writable read-only-memory
which could be taken care of with just a chip. You would also have a
mirror of it to disk so that you can check to see if the chip has been
swapped.
>About him taking the Federation starships for scrap, I don't think that would
>work. The Defiant was disabled and would have been easy to take, but you have
>to remember that the Melinche (sp?) wasn't too far away.
Simple, turn on the tractor beams and take it away into warp with you.
>IIRC, Eddington was less than half an hour away from the badlands, but the
>Melinche was going to get there first to block his escape route. That's when he
>turned and activated his virus. If he did try to take over the Defiant, the Melinche
>would have been there before they could take very many parts.
Then simply transport a decent sized bomb on board to scuttle the
ship.
>He couldn't have towed the Melinche to steal parts since the Captain would have
>self-destructed the ship before he would allow it to be taken by the Maquis.
I do believe the shields were down? Simply locate and then transport
every person on the bridge and then in engineering out into space.
Guess what.. no people left to initiate the self-destruct. Then simply
tractor beam the ship with 3 maquis ships and drag it into warp with
you. Once a safe distance away simply start beaming the rest of the
people on board into space. Once done board the ship and take it over,
end of story.
>Even if he could board it and take control of the ship, it wasn't going
>anywhere without massive repairs.
There are things called tractor beams.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
dontthro...@me.com (Dr. Feelgood) wrote:
>Impossible for a virus to wipe all computer systems you say, yet you the
>go on to say you would fix the problem by first "reformat"(ing) your
>memory.
I also say you should keep your computer system(helm, navigation, etc)
code in hardware preferably non-writeable memory.
>Remember, if something can be done by authorized personnel, it can be very
>difficult for anyone else to do it - but never impossible. as far as
>separate systems goes, all that's needed is separate virii and
>synchronization.
Nope. The reformatting removes anything you put on there. Any virus or
ANY file you add to the system will only last until the next reformat
(preferably daily) by the station personnel. The backup itself cannot
be written to and a copy of which is preferably kept with Odo, Sisko,
and for good measure down on the planet where NO station personnel
have access to it. Oh, and one other thing. Make sure you reboot the
entire system every day wiping any dynamic ram.
>As for backups, remember how long Eddington was around and the kind of
>access he was authorized for (never mind the level of acccess he actually
>had). I'm not about to trust anything short of a full reconstruction of
>the computer systems, starting with little more than textbook foundations.
That's bullshit. Just wipe every single byte of memory, check every
piece of chip memory against your backup, and then reload from your
backup. It's like in Aliens,"Nuke it from orbit, it is the only way to
be sure."
>Given that the Defiant is a ship unique in the federation it seems to
>follow that some manual calibration of such a bare bones solution would be
>necessary.
Not really. I can't imagine them using a different say helm control
for the Defiant then they would for the Enterprise unless it was a new
model, and then once it checked out would be put in the Enterprise
too. But to have multiple systems that control helm on different ships
would be extremely cost-prohibitive and you have to train your people
to use and maintain multiple systems that do the same thing. It is
called standardization.. learn about it.
>I think it's not a question of what is possible, so much as it is a
>question of how much these people can accomplish. Eddington would have to
>be an incredible genius, and O'Brien's people also incredibly well
>trained.
No, it is a question of what is possible.
>A ship that is dead in space is one thing, boarding a ship full of well
>armed starfleet officers is something else entirely, especially if you
>have a bit of a hero complex and want to:
>a: avoid killing any humans.
>b: make sure that when you are caught it is known that you committed no
>crimes against humanity directly.
You don't have to board them. Their sheilds are down so beam them into
space. If i've said it once i'll say it again... the transporters are
one of the most deadliest weapons that has ever been devised. Once off
the ship you can beam people in at your own leisure. If you are kind
of squemish about killing them simply beam them into your brig and
then give them the Defiant life boat once you are done to live in for
a couple weeks.
>Stupid tactical error, it happens to the best of them. Especially to a man
>like Sisko who has never suffered defeat and humiliation to this extent
>before.
Why is it not standard Starfleet policy that when in an unstable area
where you are not sure of your readings to launch a very light weapon
at it? Nothing that would even leave a scratch but you REALLY find out
who is who.
>> Then apparently we come
>> out of the Badlands to find out that Eddington disabled a Federation
>> STARSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does he take it over and use it to kick the
>> Defiant's ASS? Does he attach tractor beams to it and take it into
>> warp with him so he can scuttle it for parts? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. You
>> would think money grows on trees for the Marquis because Eddington
>> leaves the ship to go destroy a planet! This touches on another gripe
>> of mine. It is just TOO damn easy to take out the big ships of the
>> Federation. Even given TOTAL and complete knowledge of both ships
>> would you expect to be able to take over an air craft carrier with a
>> cruiser? Fuck no, but the Maquis seem to be able to do it with ease.
>We've established that Eddington is a tactical genius. It is not
>impossible for a cruiser to DISABLE an aircraft carrier.
Not without a massive amount of inside help. And usually you cannot
even get within range where you could see it on your horizon without
being dead meat from the support ships and planes an air craft carrier
has.
>Boarding her or even staying near her would be suicide however.
Sure, if you don't have the technology of the 24th century Federation.
Transporters really do a number if used correctly.
>Have you ever played chess?
I have.
>A sacrifice can be the turning point of a game.
Only if you expect that sacrifice to give you something equal in
return at a later time. Sisko did not have that assurance and had
other moves available to him that worked just as will that didn't
entail firing on a civilian population.
>Eddington is now seen as the righteous martyr whose only crime was to try
>to stop the cardassians and the federation from forcing people out of
>there ancestral homes.
No, he only looks like a senseless coward who just up and folded when
he was holding a royal flush.
>As a last resort he did bomb a cardassian military base (all their colonies
>are really secret military bases, of course). With great courage and valor
>he did defeat the federation ships hunting him with ease, but he never
>killed a single human being.
And then let them go even though the ships would have brought massive
amounts of money to back Maquis operations.
>Only when the Federation showed it's true colors and fired chemical
>weapons upon innocent civilians did he voluntarily sacrifice himself for
>a just cause.
Um hmm, sure. And in doing so destroyed all Maquis operations. I
suppose someone like Eddington comes along every day?
>Missed the Worf thing. Can't be to sure about that no repurcussions thing
>yet, obviously Dax thinks it's not a problem. I'm hoping the writers
>didn't seriously fuck up, and have actually planned for a realistic future
>on this thing. The worst possible move for the Fed's right now would be to
>let Sisko live.
True.
>It's too bad, until the writers made him do this Sisko was one of my favorite
>ST characters. I really, really, liked this episode until I realized that truly was
>Trilithium in those torpedos.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
benjam...@baylor.edu (Ben Kidd) wrote:
>In regards to lots of people's agruments about the morality of Capt.
>Sisko's actions in contaminating the Maquis Colony, it seems to me
>that the major problem is simply that his actions seem to bee grossly
>non-Federation in nature.
Try non-human in nature. The man is a butcherer and is no better than
Adolf Hitler.
>Using biochemical weapons of mass destruction on civilian populations is
>something that deserves a response, especially if most nation/states have
>such weapons.
You are not thinking correctly slick. WHY is Eddington hosing these
planets? Notice he is not destroying them from ALL life, just
Cardassian. You need to work the problem and just not do what he does.
The reason he is not destroying them from all life is so that once the
Cardassians have left the Maquis settlers can then move back in and
take the planets back that were taken by treaty. So the obvious
solution to any thinking man is to go to EACH and EVERY planet he made
uninhabitable to Cardy life and make it uninhabitable to HUMAN life.
Therefore Eddington will NEVER get what he wants and only ends up
shooting himself and the Maquis in the foot. Suddenly if all the
planets are gone he has just removed all that he was fighting for. His
support dies and he is seen to be a slimeball to all the folks that
WANTED to go back to their worlds but now cannot, EVER.
>For the Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans et. al. nuking every single
>available planet of the Maquis seems like a perfectly reasonable solution.
No, the above solution is what they would do... an irrational solution
is what you suggested.
>Sisko probably saved the Federation and the rest of the universe billions
>of lives by demonstrating a willingness to use such weapons.
Bullshit
> Sisko made the right decision, he did not make the moral decision.
Bullshit. Contrast his solution against mine.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
Michael Allan Thomson <Jtho...@fox.nstn.ca> wrote:
>He didn't KILL an entire planet. He made it unihabbitable for Human
>life, to prevent the Maquis from destroying more worlds. No one could
>have stopped Eddington.. Sisko had to do it.
*I* could have stopped Eddington without doing what Sisko did.
>Would you have preferred Eddingston to have destroyed all the Cardassian
>worlds?
Everybody seems to forget the line where it was clearly stated that
the planets were made uninhabitable for CARDASSIANS. Not everybody.
That way once the Cardassians had left the Maquis could set up shop
there. The solution to this problem is to make the planets
uninhabitable to all life and thus removing the REASON that Eddington
had for hosing planets.
-MJ
Michael Johnson
iadm...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca (Ian) wrote:
>Um, dude, for Eddington to strip a valued Starfleet ship for parts would
>make Starfleet EXTREMELY pissed at him (and also worried at the hardware
>he'd get), and they'd sent ten ships to hunt him down.
So? Weren't they already extremely pissed at him? What are you looking
to do? Make friends? I think it can't really get any worse.
>Also, the ship was disabled, but to strip it for parts he'd have to get rid
>of the armed crew,
Transporters.
>and he might not have much use for the stuff anyway on those little Maquis raiders.
Salvage. I'm sure there is some lovely weapons that people would love
to buy on the black market for a shitload of money.
-MJ