Ma'am --> Sir!!!
Jeff Jacques
Jennifer Loehlin (ki...@crl.com) writes:
> C:BAYERINTERNETKA9QSPOOLMAIL (p...@minibean.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> : Recently I've noticed - more in DS9 than TNG - that the female senior
> : officers are called 'sir' by peoplebelow them. Has this always been
> : the case or has it changed at some time. If it's been around since the
> : start of the series, when did political correctness disappear??
> : What about TOS, were there any similar instances.
>
> <unpleasant remarks about Kira snipped>
>
> I'm not sure about TOS--there weren't many female senior officers, and
> evidently at that time being female was a serious impediment to a
> Starfleet career--but I do recall one case of a subordinate being
> addressed as "mister." The use of "sir" for both sexes has been around
> since the beginning of TNG, I believe. Captain Janeway on Voyager
> chooses not to be addressed as "sir" for reasons best known to TPTB. It
> makes sense, though, really, to have one form of address for both sexes,
> since sex is not relevant in the context, probably not all species in
> Starfleet have the same two humans do, and in the case of an unknown
> officer from an unfamiliar species it would be easy to guess wrong. I
> assume "sir" became established as the default back when men were still
> running the show at Starfleet, or in deference to older male-dominated
> military traditions, but it is also easier to say than "ma'am."
>
This brings to mind that in STAR TREK II, Saavik was addressed by both
Kirk and Spock as "Mr. Saavik" several times.
--Jeff
--
***********************************************************************
SPOCK: You and the doctor might have been killed. * from
KIRK: The night is young. * ST-VI
***********************************************************************
Your Name
>
>Recently I've noticed - more in DS9 than TNG - that the female senior
>officers are called 'sir' by peoplebelow them. Has this always been
>the case or has it changed at some time. If it's been around since the
>start of the series, when did political correctness disappear??
>What about TOS, were there any similar instances.
>
>interested in the details - brain couldn't take it!) BUT she is a bit
>of a stroppy moo some times. I'll probably get set on fire for that
>but (a) I'm not bothered and (b) it's just an observation :)
>
>Have a nice day!
>
>Pat
>
>--
>--------------------The End-----------------------------
>Patrick L Bayer
> e-mail: p...@minibean.demon.co.uk
> Reading, Berkshire, UK
>
Date: 9601.22
In just a quick response to your message. The ships's Captain can be called whatever they wish, I am not
sure that this is a political thing. Just the truth.
>
Michael Higby
>In one of the very first episodes of Voyager, Janeway tells everyone that
>she prefers to be called *Captain*. I can't remember the reason she gave,
>but she definitely preferred *Ma'am* to *Sir*, but only in a pinch.
I think that it was basically because she was a woman, she did not want to be
referred to by a masculine title. Janeway seems to be a woman who wants to be
strong, but wants to retain her feminine side (such as her indulgence in
romantic novels).
On the other hand, Crusher didn't mind being called sir, although usually
subordinates would answer to her as doctor. I do not think that Crusher is
any less feminine than Janeway, in fact they have similar personalities.
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Trent Reznor
alt.startrek,
sat...@gate.net (Curtis D. Shafer) scribbled:
> In article <DLI4w...@news.zippo.com> pun...@internode.net writes:
> >From: pun...@internode.net
> >Subject: Re: Ma'am --> Sir!!!
> >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:51:15 GMT
>
> On Voyager, Tom Paris always calls Captain Janeway ma'am. I wonder why they
> do that? Did the writers forget.
In one of the first few episodes, didn't Kim call Janeway sir, and she said
that she didn't want to be called that, so he called her ma'am, and she said
"Captain will suffice, except in emergencies" or summat....
> Curtis
>
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ScottCS27
referred to as "sir." The explanation I've heard in reading various Trek
books is that it's an old form of military protocol. That may or may not
be true, but female officers do expect to be referred to as "ma'am."
(Although, as the captain of Voyager, Janeway could be called "skipper"
and that would be proper protocol, though I doubt that'll ever be used!)
On a side note...it was only proper protocol to call officers from the
rank of ensign to lieutenant commander as "mister" or "miss." You could
not use that form of address for ranks of commander and above, though Trek
uses it for just about anyone.
David L. Jaroslav
says...
>
>In just a quick response to your message.
>The ships's Captain can be called whatever
>they wish, I am not sure that this is a political
>thing. Just the truth.
But incorrect. Forms of address are, if not enshrined
in law, which they often are, then long-standing custom.
A ship's CO is addressed as "Captain" (irrespective of
actual rank), "Skipper" (if they rank below Captain),
"Sir" (if male) or "Ma'am" (if female).
"Sir" is not unisex in real-world navies, and it wasn't
in TOS or the movies, so why the TNG-era producers
would change that is beyond me. It seems they've
confused it with Mister, which is unisex.
--
David L. Jaroslav
<dj7...@american.edu>
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him."
-C.G. Jung
"I drank WHAT?!"
-Last words of Socrates (attributed)
NDColleen
ma'am.
David L. Jaroslav
ndco...@aol.com says...
>
>They only call her Sir when they get excited. They
>usually do call her ma'am.
It is NEVER appropriate to address a woman as sir.
Sir derives from sire, the medieval form of address for
a gentleman; in the same way, ma'am is from madam,
the feminine equivalent.
David Migicovsky
dj7...@american.edu (David L. Jaroslav) wrote:
>It is NEVER appropriate to address a woman as sir.
>Sir derives from sire, the medieval form of address for
>a gentleman; in the same way, ma'am is from madam,
>the feminine equivalent.
>
You are right--It IS never appropriate. Star Trek is not set in the present.
Language evolves. In the case of Starfleet, "Sir" has become the term of
address for an officer and is presumably not used in civilian life.
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David L. Jaroslav
>
>In article <4g8lqv$h...@paladin.american.edu>,
> dj7...@american.edu (David L. Jaroslav) wrote:
>
>>It is NEVER appropriate to address a woman as sir.
>>Sir derives from sire, the medieval form of address for
>>a gentleman; in the same way, ma'am is from madam,
>>the feminine equivalent.
>>
>
>You are right--It IS never appropriate. Star Trek is not set in the present.
>Language evolves.
Obviously -- sir is from sire, ma'am from madam. But the gender
of those words hasn't changed since the middle ages, and usage
alteration is much less frequent than it was when languages could
evolve in relative isolation.
Of course, the "language evolves" argument is a straw man --
we have to assume that we're hearing this translated from 24th century
English, and words mean what they mean to us.
> In the case of Starfleet, "Sir" has become the term of
>address for an officer and is presumably not used in civilian life.
My problem with this is that it's the writers being sloppy,
not doing this intentionally. "Ma'am," was the form of address
for female Starfleet officers in the TOS era (see Valeris with
the 2 transporter techs in ST6), so it shouldn't be changed
between series -- military traditions stay the same unless there's
a practical detriment in having one.
The TNG-era writers have this confused with Mister -- the
TOS writers weren't as ignorant about these sort of details, and
understood that Mister is unisex (thus, Mister Saavik). For
Janeway to call her Chief Engineer "Miss Torres," as I distinctly
her doing, is to address her as if she were a civilian.
Sascha Volkenandt
>It is NEVER appropriate to address a woman as sir.
>Sir derives from sire, the medieval form of address for
>a gentleman; in the same way, ma'am is from madam,
>the feminine equivalent.
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Karen Gail Rohrbacher
>Hi all, hallo *dj7030a* !
>>It is NEVER appropriate to address a woman as sir.
>>Sir derives from sire, the medieval form of address for
>>a gentleman; in the same way, ma'am is from madam,
>>the feminine equivalent.
>In DS9, Kira is always addressed "Sir".
Janeway made a comment in the first episode, when Kim calls her "sir"
that "despite Starfleet protocall, I don't like being called sir." and
then says something later that "ma'am will do in a crunch, but Captain
is just fine."
I assume that women officers are called sir for that reason, not because
the writers don't know the origin of the word.
Just my opinion. Judge it by what you pay for it.
----------------------------------------------------
Karen Gail Rohrbacher
Northwestern University
k-rohr...@nwu.edu
Robert E. Szekely
>In article <saturn.4...@gate.net>,
>alt.startrek,
>sat...@gate.net (Curtis D. Shafer) scribbled:
>> In article <DLI4w...@news.zippo.com> pun...@internode.net writes:
>> >From: pun...@internode.net
>> >Subject: Re: Ma'am --> Sir!!!
>> >Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:51:15 GMT
>>
>> On Voyager, Tom Paris always calls Captain Janeway ma'am. I wonder why they
>> do that? Did the writers forget.
>In one of the first few episodes, didn't Kim call Janeway sir, and she said
>that she didn't want to be called that, so he called her ma'am, and she said
>"Captain will suffice, except in emergencies" or summat....
>> Curtis
>>
Actually, the precedent was established years ago in one of the early
Trek films. If memory serves correctly, the first instance of this
masculinized mode of address for Starfleet officers was in ST:TWOK,
when CAPT Spock called LT Saavik (Kirstie Alley) "Mr. Saavik".
I believe that in a fit of delusional political correctness, someone
updated the Trek writer's guides to standardize on a masculine form of
address for Starfleet officers when they weren't being addressed by
rank and name. Perhaps it was even the "Great Bird" himself.
I recognize that normal linguistic English convention (I deliberately
exclude proponents of "PC", as they're far too emotionally
thin-skinned to survive unprotected in the real world) informally
addresses gender-mixed groups of people by the masculine plural, i.e.,
addressing a group of people as "Guys" does not imply that there are
no women in the group. I know there are those that argue that our
language breeds prejudice by identifying difference in gender through
the use of pairs of terms such as: Actor/Actress, Steward/Stewardess,
Master/Mistress, et al. Does that mean the the French find a pen,
having a feminine article (la plume) is less suitable for "the rigors
of writing" than a pencil, which is masculine (le crayon)? Pens never
get stubby, needing replacement--they can always be refilled with ink,
which makes them a more durable writing implement than a pencil.
Star Trek's universe adopted much of its terminology from present-day
navies: just like sailing ships (or "sea-ships" if you like) a
starship has a bridge, decks and bulkheads; general directions of
movement are identified relative to the ship: port (the left side of
the ship--when facing forward. When facing the rear of the ship, the
port side is then on the sailor's right), starboard (the side of the
ship directly opposite port, or the right of the ship when facing the
front end of the ship), fore (which is in the direction of the "bow",
which is the frontmost point of the ship), aft (which is going toward
the rearmost end of the ship, known as either the "stern" or
"fantail"), above and below.
In the U.S. Navy, there are three ways to address commissioned
officers:
- By rank and last name
- For officers of paygrade O-4 (LCDR) and below, by "Mr." and last
name
- By simply "Sir" or "Ma'am".
Logic would indicate, then when addressing a female officer of
paygrade O-4 or lower, that "Ms." and last name should be considered
acceptable usage, since the difference in gender is recognized when
not addressing the officer by using his or her surname.
I've not yet heard of that usage being practiced, however. It would
"feel right" to see CAPT Janeway address B'llana as "Ms. Torres".
In the normal work environment, peers often address peers on a
first-name basis, and seniors often address juniors in that informal
manner as well. There's also roughly a one-to-two paygrade buffer in
which juniors can address seniors on a first name basis, provided the
senior doesn't object or direct them otherwise. There are a few
fairly firm lines of demarcation in this area, however:
Enlisted sailors in paygrades E-6 and below (Petty Officers and
"non-rates") DO NOT address sailors of paygrade E-7 through E-9
(Chief Petty Officers) by their first name.
Officers junior to paygrade O-6 (which is a Captain in the Navy,
equivalent to a "full-bird" Colonel in the other branches of service)
do not address a Captain by his first name.
Officers who are not of flag rank, do not address officers of flag
rank by their first name. A Naval Officer of flag rank is an
Admiral (aka a "Flag Officer"), which is equivalent to the Army, Air
Force, and Marine Corps' General Officers.
I've taken the time to elaborate on naval protocols of address to
illustrate a point: Katherine Janeway is a starship Captain who is
female; she is not a woman who happens to be a starship Captain. Her
character is quite comfortable with maintaining her feminine
characteristics while being in command: there is no conflict between
her gender identity and her position of authority. She feels no need
to mask her femininity behind foolish Starfleet protocols.
The bottom line is that leadership has nothing to do with gonads.
The character of CAPT Katherine Janeway supports this by asserting her
feminine nature while being a strong commander. A woman doesn't have
to act like a man (or be addressed as though she were a man) to be a
strong and effective leader.
Gender identification is not sexism, any more than acknowledging
ethnic derivation or individual talents and characteristics is.
Sexism is prejudice based on attitudes held toward a person based
soley on their gender. Recognizing a person's gender is not
prejudicial: it's actually quite useful in identifying and selecting
suitable mates for natural procreation, i.e., man+man or woman+woman
(all other factors being equal) WILL NOT produce offspring.
Remember the Vulcan philisophy of IDIC. We have to start by
equilaterally accepting diversity within our OWN race, (of which
there's only one: HUMAN--ask any geneticist) before we're ready to go
out and meet others.
<<sound of soapbox cracking>> <G>
Robert E. Szekely
rsze...@ix.netcom.com
76276...@compuserve.com
David L. Jaroslav
says...
>
>ja...@pern.ping.de (Sascha Volkenandt) wrote:
>>Hi all, hallo *dj7030a* !
>>>It is NEVER appropriate to address a woman as sir.
>>>Sir derives from sire, the medieval form of address for
>>>a gentleman; in the same way, ma'am is from madam,
>>>the feminine equivalent.
>>In DS9, Kira is always addressed "Sir".
>
>Janeway made a comment in the first episode, when Kim calls her "sir"
>that "despite Starfleet protocall, I don't like being called sir."
The thing about that is that the writers changed Starfleet protocol so
she'd dislike them, which is stupid. In TOS and the movies, female
officers were always adressed as ma'am (see Valeris with the
transporter techs in ST6), which reflects real-world protocol.
>I assume that women officers are called sir for that reason, not because
>the writers don't know the origin of the word.
Ridiculous -- you assume conscious purpose and intent (not to
mention intelligence) on the writers' behalf. What they've done
in 24th-century Trek is confuse the gendered terms sir/ma'am
with the unisex Mister. (As in Mister Saavik, NOT Miss Torres,
which is an address for a civilian).
--
David L. Jaroslav
<dj7...@american.edu>
"Show me a sane man and I will cure him."
-C.G. Jung
"I drank WHAT?!"
-Last words of Socrates (attributed)
fnord
Chris Carrier
"F--- YOU, SIR!" was a polite form of address several hundred years from now?
Robert E. Szekely
>>>In DS9, Kira is always addressed "Sir".
>>
>>Janeway made a comment in the first episode, when Kim calls her "sir"
>>that "despite Starfleet protocall, I don't like being called sir."
>The thing about that is that the writers changed Starfleet protocol so
>she'd dislike them, which is stupid. In TOS and the movies, female
>officers were always adressed as ma'am (see Valeris with the
>transporter techs in ST6), which reflects real-world protocol.
>>I assume that women officers are called sir for that reason, not because
>>the writers don't know the origin of the word.
>Ridiculous -- you assume conscious purpose and intent (not to
>mention intelligence) on the writers' behalf. What they've done
>in 24th-century Trek is confuse the gendered terms sir/ma'am
>with the unisex Mister. (As in Mister Saavik, NOT Miss Torres,
>which is an address for a civilian).
>--
>David L. Jaroslav
At what point did "Mister" become a unisex term? Because if that were
true, the article "Ms." would never have come into existence. In
French, the equivalent form of address to "Mister" is "Monsieur"; a
merging of two words (Mon+Sieur) that literally translate to "My Sir"
-- which certainly is *not* unisex (unless the person being addressed
is the androgynous type, in which case the proper form of address has
yet to be determined). This French article of address is more commonly
recognized by its contracted spoken form, which is "M'sieu".
By the same token, the French formal article of address for a woman is
"Madame": again, two merged words (Ma+Dame) which literally translate
into the phrase "My Woman". The English adoption of this is "Madam",
which when contracted, becomes "Ma'am".
David, I suggest you consider becoming more conversant in the
etymology of these terms we debate--before carrying this point any
further.
Additionally, consider this--athough in his recent appearance on
ST:VOY, Q at one point addressed CAPT Janeway as "Madam Captain", the
distinction was superfluous (as well as being patronizing *and*
gratuitious, but that's the nature of Q, anyway): as the title
"Captain" is a gender neutral description of title and position that
serves quite well as a form of address--as do the terms Counselor,
Doctor, Detective, Senator, Governor and Mayor, for example.
Wolfgang Leithner
man and woman. They didn't invent something they didn't think abaout it they only wrote it
down.
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>> Anything is possible in an animated cartoon <<
Paul Coffey
>'Woman' in french is 'femme'. I don't recommend calling anyone mafemme!
>You might hit over the head with a large, blunt object. :)
>
Actually, French husbands sometimes address or refer to their wives
as "ma femme," usually being very careful about voice tone when they do
so. As you, I would not recommend anyone else trying it.
Qapla'
qeSmIv HarghwI'