Why did Carmela call Janice's during the "clean up"?
PWiseKorn
Tony after saying it was Janice on the phone? Man, she is paranoid.
Bill Lynch
>
> When Tony answered the phone he said "Is it Mom?" Wouldn't Carmela believe
> Tony after saying it was Janice on the phone? Man, she is paranoid.
IMHO she was making sure, that's all. IIRC the last time Tony "had to go
out" in the middle of the night was when Irina slit her wrist.
Bill L
RCLOVELY
>> Tony after saying it was Janice on the phone? Man, she is paranoid.
>
Just what is paranoid and self absorbed about not beliving a lier? Has Tony
ever been honest with Carmella?
RC
arsl...@mediaone.net
>Just what is paranoid and self absorbed about not beliving a lier? Has Tony
>ever been honest with Carmella?
Yes. About Irina.
Art
Bennet K. Langlotz
>>Just what is paranoid and self absorbed about not beliving a lier? Has Tony
>>ever been honest with Carmella?
>
>Yes. About Irina.
The problem is that with such a long history of dishonesty (including
a recent verified cheat after a pledge not to), she doesn't believe
him when he finally tells the truth.
Just like the boy who cried wolf.
--
Bennet K. Langlotz
ne...@langlotz.com
arsl...@mediaone.net
Langlotz) wrote:
>The problem is that with such a long history of dishonesty (including
>a recent verified cheat after a pledge not to), she doesn't believe
>him when he finally tells the truth.
>
>Just like the boy who cried wolf.
True enough. Additionally, I find that there is a Murphy's Law
operating in regards to timing in a relationship.
Carm asks Tony to give up the bimbos, and at that he is certain to
squirm at the thought of lost freedom.
But the law comes into play when Tony actually does extricate himself
from a extra-marital relationship (which decision IMO grew directly
out of that conversation with Carm). It is at THAT PRECISE TIME that
Carm is most likely to be distrustful of him.
I have anecdotal evidence only, but that in abundance.
Art
Torris
>> Wouldn't Carmela believe
>>> Tony after saying it was Janice on the phone? Man, she is paranoid.
>>
>>Goes to show how self absorbed Carmela truly is.
>
>Just what is paranoid and self absorbed about not beliving a lier? Has Tony
>ever been honest with Carmella?
>
>RC
When Tony asked if it was "ma", Carmela should have not even thought
twice that it was indeed Janice calling
Torris
"Rehab is for quitters"
RCLOVELY
>When Tony asked if it was "ma", Carmela should have not even thought
>twice that it was indeed Janice calling
Oh please, he has probably used his mother to get out of the house many times
before!
RC
Amy
<6AB344FCBC4613B9.B65A0B94...@lp.airnews.net>,
arsl...@mediaone.net wrote:
>
> True enough. Additionally, I find that there is a Murphy's Law
> operating in regards to timing in a relationship.
>
> Carm asks Tony to give up the bimbos, and at that he is certain to
> squirm at the thought of lost freedom.
>
> But the law comes into play when Tony actually does extricate himself
> from a extra-marital relationship (which decision IMO grew directly
> out of that conversation with Carm). It is at THAT PRECISE TIME that
> Carm is most likely to be distrustful of him.
>
> I have anecdotal evidence only, but that in abundance.
>
> Art
>
Tony dumps Irina right after having sex with her, then throws his CK1-
laden shirt into the washing machine for Carmella to find. Tony's
variation on Murphy's Law: If something can go wrong, it
will...especially if you act like a shitheel.
Amy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Blondie lz
>>twice that it was indeed Janice calling
Come on now, the man cheats, Carmela knows it. She should believe the
snake....please.
PattyC4303
you don't believe much of anything.
PattyC<---loves your sig line
>When Tony asked if it was "ma", Carmela should have not even thought
>twice that it was indeed Janice calling
>
>
>
Kenlybelt
>Watch the seen again. The look on his face was certainly one of concern and
confusion, not subterfuge. You catty bitches ought to give Tony a break on this
one.
Have you ever been in couples therapy or read the Dance of ...Intimacy, Anger,
etc. series by Harriet Lerner? To (over)simplify, relationships have a certain
balance. You do this, I'll do that. When either Tony or Carm does/says
something, you know exactly how the other will react. And so do they.
Problems are coming because, in little ways, Tony is changing. That will throw
Carmela off and increase the anxiety level between the two of them.
As a catty bitch myself, I say that she is totally right to be distrustful of
Tony. Assuming his motive in breaking up with Irina is to recommit to his
marriage (and I think that's only part of it), he has a long, hard test ahead
of him. And yet... it's interesting that, with all this shit going on, and for
so long, it wasn't until Carm called over at Livia's - and found out that Tony
was telling the truth - that she decided to go on a trip. She saw it as a
turning point, but not as a foundation to rebuild her marriage.
It's almost as if Tony's desire to get closer to her forces Carmela to examine
how much SHE wants the marriage to succeed.
Kenly
Torris
>>>When Tony asked if it was "ma", Carmela should have not even thought
>>>twice that it was indeed Janice calling
>
>Come on now, the man cheats, Carmela knows it. She should believe the
>snake....please.
Watch the seen again. The look on his face was certainly one of
concern and confusion, not subterfuge. You catty bitches ought to give
Tony a break on this one. Especially considering Carmela's pathetic
throwing herself at Vic Musto's feet. Saint Carmela ain't got much
wiggle room on this one
Torris
>>
>>When Tony asked if it was "ma", Carmela should have not even thought
>>twice that it was indeed Janice calling
>
>Oh please, he has probably used his mother to get out of the house many times
>before!
>
>RC
Oh sure, the possibility of having to bury Tony's mother,
necessitating his hurried rush from Casa Soprano, certainly is just
an excuse to escape Carmela's crushing self absorption. Makes perfect
sense to me. Why doesn't she just leave Tony then, if his every move
is perceived as a fraud and lie? Maybe start out on her own and make
her own way. As Bob Marley sings, "emancipate yourself from mental
slavery".
It's easier just to bitch and moan all the time about her plight.
Maybe she can get a part time job at the Burger Hut like Lester
Burnham in American Beauty. Otherwise boo fucking hoo.
Torris
>Obviously, you have never been lied to by an experienced liar. After a while,
>you don't believe much of anything.
Jesus, then really Tony is wasting his time at Melfi's office and
ought to be seeing a marriage counselor instead. And while his inept
outpouring of concern over Irina to Carm was painful to watch, he did
end it with her. Whatever the reason, selfish or for a new start with
Carm is irrelevant in my eyes. Maybe the only thing that will suffice
is if he presents Carmela his balls stitched into a set of rosary
beads.
And I have been whacked by accomplished liar, but the minute I
discovered her cheating on me, I was out the door, do not pass go, do
not collect $200. Why waste time self flagellating yourself over your
plight otherwise? Carmela is comfortable playing the role of
professional victim. It's not romantic or sympathetic, it's boring.
>
>PattyC<---loves your sig line
Heh heh. Carmela's sigline should read then something similar:
"Marriage is for quitters". (flame retardant suit on) :-)
rubys...@my-deja.com
> Whatever the reason, selfish or for a new start with
> Carm is irrelevant in my eyes. Maybe the only thing that will suffice
> is if he presents Carmela his balls stitched into a set of rosary
> beads.
So just because he makes a claim, she should automatically believe
him? Trust is earned, Tony should know that in his line of work.
Remember all the time he told her it was over with Irina? Was he ever
telling the truth before? And when he told her it's been over for "a
long time"-- be honest, he's talking metaphorically, since literally he
screwed her the day he dumped her. Let's not forget Little Miss Born-
Again Christian too, not too long ago. Tony has no credibility with
Carm. He doesn't deserve any. That doesn't make Carm a castrating
bitch. Nor do I think her desire for Vic Musto any more pathetic than
Tony's shallow sexual encounters with trashy women. They're both kind
of sad, in different ways.
However, you're right, personally I think if she feels that way she
should dump him. But she is Catholic, and whether you concur or not,
there are still some Catholics who don't believe in divorce. And she
does love him.
rubystreak, just another catty bitch
Torris
>
>Have you ever been in couples therapy or read the Dance of ...Intimacy, Anger,
>etc. series by Harriet Lerner?
I get all my relationship advice from Maxim :-)
>As a catty bitch myself, I say that she is totally right to be distrustful of
>Tony. Assuming his motive in breaking up with Irina is to recommit to his
>marriage (and I think that's only part of it), he has a long, hard test ahead
>of him. And yet... it's interesting that, with all this shit going on, and for
>so long, it wasn't until Carm called over at Livia's - and found out that Tony
>was telling the truth - that she decided to go on a trip. She saw it as a
>turning point, but not as a foundation to rebuild her marriage.
Ok, so really Tony is screwed either way, so why change? isn't that
all that he is facing with therapy?
>
>It's almost as if Tony's desire to get closer to her forces Carmela to examine
>how much SHE wants the marriage to succeed.
Right so she has to take charge of her feelings and quit playing the
victim. That isn't as safe, especially if Tony is willing for a
sincere reconciliation and devotion to his marriage vows
RCLOVELY
watch, >he did end it with her.
After sleeping with her, after telling Carmella "it was over a long time ago,"
he leaves his perfume scented shirt in the washer for Carm to find. And you
think Carmella should belive him about anything?
> Carmela is comfortable playing the role >of professional victim.
Carmella is far from playing the victim. She is the only person besides Melfi
to stand up to Tony. She is hurt and angry because he lied to her. Weren't
you?
RC
RCLOVELY
How, on God's green earth, is Carmela self absorbed? This entire season she
has been cookin for the family, washing the family clothes, cleaning the family
house, entertaining Tony's freinds and attending her children's school events.
She has been out of that kitchen to comfort Angie Bumpasaro, to go to lunch
twice go to the paint store, and get her eyebrows done. Carms problem is she
is notself absorbed enough!
> Why doesn't she just leave Tony then, if >his every move is perceived as a
fraud >and lie?
She just might next season, but she is a Mifia wife, they don't leave.
>It's easier just to bitch and moan all the >time about her plight.
In what episode did she bitch and moan about her plight? Is confronting her
husband when his mistress calls at the house bitching and moaning?
RC
Kenlybelt
>>marriage (and I think that's only part of it), he has a long, hard test
>ahead
>>of him. And yet... it's interesting that, with all this shit going on, and
for
>>so long, it wasn't until Carm called over at Livia's - and found out that
Tony
>>was telling the truth - that she decided to go on a trip. She saw it as a
turning point, but not as a foundation to rebuild her marriage.
>
>Ok, so really Tony is screwed either way, so why change? isn't that
>all that he is facing with therapy?
Yes. Unless Carmela also wants to look at her role in the marriage, it doesn't
matter (well, it matters, but only a little) what Tony does.
Don't get me wrong, I like Carmela and appreciate her dilemma. But most of us
here have been pretty cynical of religion. Why is it so difficult to
contemplate that Carm uses her religious beliefs (albeit, unconsciously) to
justify her victimization by/moral superiority to Tony?
It just seems to me that, while I know it honestly makes her unhappy, Carmela
is deeply invested in seeing herself as the longsuffering wife.
Change in this marriage is not something she is unambivalent about.
Kenly
Torris
>
>It just seems to me that, while I know it honestly makes her unhappy, Carmela
>is deeply invested in seeing herself as the longsuffering wife.
Thanks for being willing to see that and admit it. I'm far from an
Archie Bunker when it comes to female/male relationships but Carmela's
inconsistency borders on self righteous expediency. If anyone here has
ever been the thrid wheel in an affair, you know what's like to be
used as a weapon in a domestic war.
.
>
>Change in this marriage is not something she is unambivalent about.
>
>Kenly
This is exactly what I think will transpire in season 3.
Torris
>So just because he makes a claim, she should automatically believe
>him? Trust is earned, Tony should know that in his line of work.
>Remember all the time he told her it was over with Irina? Was he ever
>telling the truth before? And when he told her it's been over for "a
>long time"-- be honest, he's talking metaphorically, since literally he
>screwed her the day he dumped her. Let's not forget Little Miss Born-
>Again Christian too, not too long ago. Tony has no credibility with
>Carm. He doesn't deserve any. That doesn't make Carm a castrating
>bitch.
So then why doesn't she leave? She's a co dependent mess who is
equally responsible for her unhappiness as Tony is for causing it.
But in America and all the self help bullshit tomes, we're never
responsible for our own happiness and it's always somebody else's
fault for our unhappiness. I think Tony is definitely taking steps in
the right direction by being firm and ending it with Irina and gets
nothing but shrewish sniping at home. So I would not be the least bit
surprised if he just chucks it all and slips back into his unbecoming
behavior with another goomar. Who needs that shit? As if he's got
enough to worry about out on the street trying not to get whacked,
he's got to come home to her Inquisition?
Nor do I think her desire for Vic Musto any more pathetic than
>Tony's shallow sexual encounters with trashy women. They're both kind
>of sad, in different ways.
Except in Carmela's case, Vic Musto would pay with his life for
Carmela's attempt to be seen as desirous. And I didn't see where Irina
was trashy
>
>However, you're right, personally I think if she feels that way she
>should dump him. But she is Catholic, and whether you concur or not,
>there are still some Catholics who don't believe in divorce. And she
>does love him.
Yeah religion, another refuge for the weak. She could be like my
Catholic uncle who willed himself to an early death when divorce from
his hateful wife wasn't an option
.
And starting over at her age, she might have to download the
instructions from the Internet on working a mop again without that
Polish maid to wait on her hand and foot.
Torris
wrote:
>Carmella is doing what she needs to do to continue living the life
>he's been dealt and to calm her own demons. That's not very
>different from what most of us do in Real Life.
That's a very fatalistic outlook. Basically saying that you can't
change your circumstance and so therefore you have to try and live
with the compromises. I disagree. But often times it is hard to start
over and go into the unknown with the knowledge that there is no
guarantee that your noble attempt will be rewarded with whatever it is
a person seeks.
Sometimes we can't be
>perfect and we know it, so we do our best to keep on keepin' on, if
>you know what I mean.
The ole dignity in suffering routine? I contrast her with the lovely
Charmaine who has refused to be shunted to the background as the
martyred Italian wife and although we haven't seen the character
development of her and Arty in the program, at least she isn't content
to surrender to her "lot in life". You think Arty can get a way with a
goomar?
>
>I really think you're bein' too hard on (the character that
>is)Carmella. She's being played very real for you and that somehow
>strikes a hurtful cord.
Which of course is the beauty of this show. It is written with a
marked lack of sentimentality and triteness which does manifest to
real life circumstances. Especially with the dynamic of spousal
assignations and both of them utterly confused about their children
P.A. Berman
> equally responsible for her unhappiness as Tony is for causing it.
Yes, they are definitely codependent. That's true enough. I think Carm has
been in denial about Tony for a long time. Remember how Dr. Melfi talked
about the sydrome where people who do bad things have to keep very busy, or
they start thinking too much? Well, now that Meadow is leaving home and AJ
is more independent, she's starting to realize just how bad her relationship
with Tony is. Hence her recent backlash.
> But in America and all the self help bullshit tomes, we're never
> responsible for our own happiness and it's always somebody else's
> fault for our unhappiness.
I don't think that's fair. Carmella knows she's complicit, I think. She's
bargaining, in her own mind-- if he'll stop cheating, she can deal with the
mafia stuff. Rationalizing, yes, but I think she really wants to save her
marriage. Is that not an honorable goal?
> I think Tony is definitely taking steps in
> the right direction by being firm and ending it with Irina and gets
> nothing but shrewish sniping at home.
Jeez, be fair here. Why in the world should she believe him immediately?
You say she's a doormat-- what kind of a total doormat would she be if she
just said, "Oh, OK, Tony, I believe every word you say. You've lied to me
for years, but this time it's all true, if you say it is." He *just* dumped
Irina, having screwed her rather recently, and he had lied about breaking it
off in the past. It's going to take time to repair their trust, and during
that time, Tony (if he really wants the marriage to work) is going to have
to behave himself and accept her lack of trust for a while. Think about the
Catholic doctrine here for a second. You're forgiven if you're truly sorry,
but you have to go forth and sin no more. It's going to take a while to
prove that he's really changed. Don't you think, as the cheating partner,
he should try to be a little understanding of her distrust?
> So I would not be the least bit
> surprised if he just chucks it all and slips back into his unbecoming
> behavior with another goomar. Who needs that shit?
Poor Tony. Now who's the victim? Why doesn't he just dump her, then? He's
just as codependent and self-indulgent as Carmella is.
Tony deserves not to be trusted about his fidelity. There is no excuse to
cheat-- keeping up your mobster image is not a good enough reason. Having a
shrewish wife (not that I think Carmella is a shrew) is not a good enough
reason. You make a vow, you keep it. If you don't, you're a dog. Period.
> Nor do I think her desire for Vic Musto any more pathetic than
> >Tony's shallow sexual encounters with trashy women. They're both kind
> >of sad, in different ways.
>
> Except in Carmela's case, Vic Musto would pay with his life for
> Carmela's attempt to be seen as desirous.
Why does that make Carm's attempt more pathetic than Tony's? B/c Tony has
the capacity to avenge infidelity and Carm does not?
> And I didn't see where Irina was trashy
She took the payoff, didn't she?
> Yeah religion, another refuge for the weak. She could be like my
> Catholic uncle who willed himself to an early death when divorce from
> his hateful wife wasn't an option
That's your opinion. You're entitled to it. However, if you want to view
the character's motivations from her point of view, I think she wants to
save her marriage. She's Catholic and against divorce. That's that.
-pab-
Torris
<rubys...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> But in America and all the self help bullshit tomes, we're never
>> responsible for our own happiness and it's always somebody else's
>> fault for our unhappiness.
>
>I don't think that's fair. Carmella knows she's complicit, I think. She's
>bargaining, in her own mind-- if he'll stop cheating, she can deal with the
>mafia stuff.
fidelity is more important than murder and stealing? Helps prove my
point of her selfishness
Rationalizing, yes, but I think she really wants to save her
>marriage. Is that not an honorable goal?
Certainly. But what is she doing to attain that salvation based on
last week's episode. Nothing that I saw
>
>> I think Tony is definitely taking steps in
>> the right direction by being firm and ending it with Irina and gets
>> nothing but shrewish sniping at home.
>
>Jeez, be fair here. Why in the world should she believe him immediately?
>You say she's a doormat-- what kind of a total doormat would she be if she
>just said, "Oh, OK, Tony, I believe every word you say. You've lied to me
>for years, but this time it's all true, if you say it is." He *just* dumped
>Irina, having screwed her rather recently, and he had lied about breaking it
>off in the past.
Maybe so but how do they hope to repair their marriage if there is no
trust. Lost cause then
It's going to take time to repair their trust, and during
>that time, Tony (if he really wants the marriage to work) is going to have
>to behave himself and accept her lack of trust for a while. Think about the
>Catholic doctrine here for a second. You're forgiven if you're truly sorry,
>but you have to go forth and sin no more. It's going to take a while to
>prove that he's really changed. Don't you think, as the cheating partner,
>he should try to be a little understanding of her distrust?
True, but until she is willing to let go of the past behavior how is
Tony supposed to feel like he is being encouraged to move on too?
>
>> So I would not be the least bit
>> surprised if he just chucks it all and slips back into his unbecoming
>> behavior with another goomar. Who needs that shit?
>
>Poor Tony. Now who's the victim? Why doesn't he just dump her, then? He's
>just as codependent and self-indulgent as Carmella is.
You're right.
>
>Tony deserves not to be trusted about his fidelity. There is no excuse to
>cheat-- keeping up your mobster image is not a good enough reason. Having a
>shrewish wife (not that I think Carmella is a shrew) is not a good enough
>reason. You make a vow, you keep it. If you don't, you're a dog. Period.
So Carmela encouraging Vic Musto is a case of two wrongs don't make a
right
>> Except in Carmela's case, Vic Musto would pay with his life for
>> Carmela's attempt to be seen as desirous.
>
>Why does that make Carm's attempt more pathetic than Tony's?
You think that a man's life is worth paying to soothe a woman's
vanity? Esp. when Carmela knows that if found out what would happen to
her lover?
>> And I didn't see where Irina was trashy
>
>She took the payoff, didn't she?
True. As Carmela enjoys the fruits of Tony's earnings every night.
Torris
wrote:
>Not really. What else can you do, though? One has to be smart enough
>to know what they can change and what they have to learn to live with,
>all the while dodging the other little complications of life.
Which is what Tony, by ending it with Irina, is trying to do. That is
one aspect of his life that he can change. He was never in love with
Irina, had no children with her. The important relationship is with
his wife. So when he is trying to do the right thing, he is met with
rage and distrust. How can he put his behavior behind him when he is
damned by it at ever turn
Torris
wrote:
>
>I don't think it's over with Irina. Carmella doesn't think it is.
Don't you think Silvio sent to deliver the payout -- that in and of
itself a sign of closure should have been a clear indication of his
cutting ties?
>Most folks in this newsgroup would probably concur. Plus, if Tony's
>not with one goomar, it'll be someone else in her place. Both Tony
>and Carmella admit to (knowing about) other past affairs of Tony's.
>How can Carmella possibly trust him to be faithful to her when he has
>never been before?
so now he's being damned for future behavior too?
>
>He should be "damned by it at every turn". He's not being accused of
>a one night stand, you know. Tony's unfaithfulness comes in many
>modes, from his long-suffering Russian goomar to the quick doggie play
>with the Christian chick in his "office".
I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but if that is the case
then isn't Carmela somehow complicit by staying put with each
successive trollop? Based on last week's episode did Tony gain
anything by ending it with Irina? No he actually got more shit and had
to deal with Irina's suicide attemp to boot.
Kenlybelt
>Carmella is doing what she needs to do to continue living the life she's been
dealt and to calm her own demons"
Just like Tony. In fact, her reasons for her choices - protecting her family -
are almost identical to those as articulated by Tony in the drunken scene with
Meadow, "Everything I do I do for you and your brother."
In fact, since Tony is the one going to hell for his part in taking care of the
family, he is perhaps making the bigger sacrifice. Carm gets the same goodies
without the eternal damnation.
Interesting that Tony and Carm feel the same things, have the same
uncertainties, yet neither will share these with the other:
T: I didn't hurt anyone, I didn't hurt anyone...
C: Gee, Tony, what are you talking about?
We didn't see that scene; wouldn't that be a question you'd ask the man you
loved and were trying to get closer to?
My point is that we see thew obvious things Tony does to prevent intimacy, but
Carm's subtle damage is there, too. She's afraid of closeness.
Kenly
P.A. Berman
She's
> >bargaining, in her own mind-- if he'll stop cheating, she can deal with
the
> >mafia stuff.
>
> fidelity is more important than murder and stealing? Helps prove my
> point of her selfishness
In her mind, maybe so. They're both incredibly selfish. With that said,
Tony is not murdering or steal from Carmella, so she can stay out of it.
What he is doing is cheating on her, and that's something she can demand
that he stop. She signed up for the mobster shit when she married him. I
don't think she signed up for the cheating.
She shoulda known better, but no one thinks it's going to happen to them.
> Rationalizing, yes, but I think she really wants to save her
> >marriage. Is that not an honorable goal?
>
> Certainly. But what is she doing to attain that salvation based on
> last week's episode. Nothing that I saw
She tried, she has been trying. She runs his household, raises his kids,
forgives him for his infidelity. She asks that he be faithful, that they
start over. He promised her he's stop screwing around. He lied, she found
out. THEN he decides to keep his promise. But he just broke it, just few
days before that. So, you know, try to see it from her point of view. I'm
sure she will believe him. She needs some time. He needs to prove himself.
Don't you think so?
> Maybe so but how do they hope to repair their marriage if there is no
> trust. Lost cause then
Like a broken bone, it doesn't heal instantly. It knits back together over
time. If you get pissed at it for not healing instantly and test it, it
will never heal. My point is, Tony should be a little contrite and suck it
up if he wants things to improve. The ball is not all in Carmella'a court.
IMHO, her reactions are completely normal, even too mild for me.
> True, but until she is willing to let go of the past behavior how is
> Tony supposed to feel like he is being encouraged to move on too?
In time, she will be. Right now, she's flaming pissed. Dealing with
betrayal takes time. It's a process. He has to be patient with her; after
all, *he* is the one breaking the marriage vows repeatedly. Should she be
the doormat again and just forgive? Isn't it more normal and realistic for
her to freak out for a while?
> So Carmela encouraging Vic Musto is a case of two wrongs don't make a
> right
Except that the magnitude of her wrong in this case is very small compared
to his. Nothing actually did happen, for whatever reason, and even if it
did, that's one infidelity compared to dozens.
> >Why does that make Carm's attempt more pathetic than Tony's?
>
> You think that a man's life is worth paying to soothe a woman's
> vanity? Esp. when Carmela knows that if found out what would happen to
> her lover?
Huh? No, I never said that. I said, why is Carmella's attempt at an affair
more pathetic than all Tony's affairs? B/c she's the woman, she can't just
call up Furio and have him cap Irina? Also, note: Carmella did not
understand why Vic didn't show up for their date. She really thought he
didn't want to do an immoral thing and break up her marriage. It was only
when her work-out pal told her that it was b/c of Tony that he realized why
Vic backed out. That was definitely a revelation to her. It's not like she
wanted to put Vic at risk.
The fact is, Tony can get away with his affairs b/c he's a man and a mobster
and she can't b/c she's a woman and a mobster's wife. Hard to say who's
more pathetic in that equation.
> >> And I didn't see where Irina was trashy
> >
> >She took the payoff, didn't she?
>
> True. As Carmela enjoys the fruits of Tony's earnings every night.
Awww, c'mon. As if Carmella is only in this for the money. Do you think
that 18 years of marriage, two kids, all the crap they've been through, she
just stays for the Benjamins? No way. Yes, she enjoys the money and all
the trappings, no doubt. But there is love between them. Irina flat-out
admitted that without Tony, she'd have to go back to being a hooker. She
needs him for his cash. No comparison.
Kenlybelt
>about those who don't learn from history being damned to repeat it.
>Maybe Tony doesn't know this, but Carmella seems to.
Of course Tony knows this: he watched the History Channel.
The key phrase is "learn from it." He's in therapy, and while he's far from
being clear about lessons he's learned and how he will make different choices
to get what he needs in the future, you see the beginnings of that in his own
awkward, Tony-ish way.
BTW, I think he did care for Irina, and it was something in that discussion
with her about a future for her that made him sense that. I don't think he had
intended to end things, but his gut feelings for her made him anxious, almost
panicky. Caring IS a threat to a marriage, unlike banging bible babes.
Carm is right to be hesitant to trust him, but at some point, if she wants to
salvage a relationship, she's going to have to let go a bit, to give up being
Right for the sake of her marriage. Tony needs to have his tenuous steps at
good rewarded and re-enforced (like a baby and animal!), not his balls busted
forever.
Kenly
Kenlybelt
There's a history between them, of course, and there's something to ne said for
that. But "love"? How can you love a man who you believe with all your heart
is evil?
I love men I trust, whose values and ethics are honorable, whom I respect and
in whose company I feel treasured. Now, that's just me.
What does Carmela mean by love?
Kenly
Torris
wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Apr 2000 00:08:56 GMT, tor...@uswest.net (Torris) wrote:
>
>
>> Why doesn't she just leave Tony then, if his every move
>>is perceived as a fraud and lie? Maybe start out on her own and make
>>her own way. As Bob Marley sings, "emancipate yourself from mental
>>slavery".
>
>Do you see her problem(s) with Tony and her marriage solved by running
>away?
No leaving a helpless situation to begin fresh
Is that your solution? It's sorta like running away from a
>diagnosis of cancer. If you have cancer in Texas, you'll still have
>cancer if you go to Canada.
Not a very applicable comparison. If Carmela feels that there is
little hope that Tony can reform his behavior to satisfy her needs in
a husband, then it's not running away but starting anew. Do you
believe that every person who gets a divorce does so to run away?
>
>BTW: Bob Marley was a very gifted dude and I love his music, but I
>wouldn't use his lyrics as anthems for any serious life conflict
>resolutions.
Really? To me the guy is a revolutionary poet whose music guides my
moral compass more than any politician or clergy man ever could
Torris
wrote:
>>so now he's being damned for future behavior too?
>
>There's a very true, old adage(s) about history repeating itself and
>about those who don't learn from history being damned to repeat it.
>Maybe Tony doesn't know this, but Carmella seems to.
I don't believe that a person should be excoriated for something they
*might* do in the future hence, only what they have done. That is
patently unfair. I don't care if they didn't learn their lesson from
past behavior or not
>
>Carmella is Catholic and, right or wrong, she will stay in her
>marriage for that reason alone. She also loves Tony. She has a
>family. And yes, she has a way of life she enjoys. That doesn't make
>her complicit in Tony's affairs. That's kinda like saying Tony's
>allowed outside activities because his wife doesn't like or won't
>indulge him certain sexual favors. The shit he has to deal with is a
>result of his own choices about what he wanted to do outside his
>marriage.
I agree. It's twisted and everyone comes away unhappy. What a life
Torris
>The key phrase is "learn from it." He's in therapy, and while he's far from
>being clear about lessons he's learned and how he will make different choices
>to get what he needs in the future, you see the beginnings of that in his own
>awkward, Tony-ish way.
Exactly! You have to walk before you can run
>
>BTW, I think he did care for Irina, and it was something in that discussion
>with her about a future for her that made him sense that. I don't think he had
>intended to end things, but his gut feelings for her made him anxious, almost
>panicky. Caring IS a threat to a marriage, unlike banging bible babes.
If all she was to him was a piece of ass, why go to the trouble to
line up job interviews for her. Just leave and be ultra cruel if she
doesn't get the hint
>
>Carm is right to be hesitant to trust him,
Hesistant is not the right word here. Absolutely *not trusting* is her
reaction
but at some point, if she wants to
>salvage a relationship, she's going to have to let go a bit, to give up being
>Right for the sake of her marriage. Tony needs to have his tenuous steps at
>good rewarded and re-enforced (like a baby and animal!), not his balls busted
>forever.
I agree!
Torris
<rubys...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>In her mind, maybe so. They're both incredibly selfish.
Agreed. But while this is a sallow copout, at least Tony can
rationalize his behavior that he is robbing and stealing to feed his
family.
With that said,
>Tony is not murdering or steal from Carmella, so she can stay out of it.
As long as she is unaware of his killing and stealing. She is aware of
it and as a Christian, she has a duty to try to get Tony to stop it.
OTherwise, as I have claimed all along her complicity doesn't get her
off the hook from god, the authorities or anyone else
>What he is doing is cheating on her, and that's something she can demand
>that he stop. She signed up for the mobster shit when she married him. I
>don't think she signed up for the cheating.
Really? don't they go hand in hand. Remember from Goodfellas both the
movie and Wiseguy the book. Friday night was for wives and Saturday
was for girlfirneds
>
>She tried, she has been trying. She runs his household, raises his kids,
>forgives him for his infidelity.
Like hell she forgives him for his infidelity. She holds grudges, as
she should!
She asks that he be faithful, that they
>start over. He promised her he's stop screwing around. He lied, she found
>out. THEN he decides to keep his promise. But he just broke it, just few
>days before that. So, you know, try to see it from her point of view.
Her point of view? Walk out of the house and hunt down that poor
scared wallpaper man.
I'm
>sure she will believe him. She needs some time. He needs to prove himself.
>Don't you think so?
I agree he needs to prove himself. Ending it with Irina was a start.
He got nothing but bile for his trouble.
>
>> Maybe so but how do they hope to repair their marriage if there is no
>> trust. Lost cause then
>
>Like a broken bone, it doesn't heal instantly. It knits back together over
>time. If you get pissed at it for not healing instantly and test it, it
>will never heal.
Aggravating the bone in the early stages of healing isn't healthy
either
My point is, Tony should be a little contrite and suck it
>up if he wants things to improve. The ball is not all in Carmella'a court.
>IMHO, her reactions are completely normal, even too mild for me.
I agree. If she's truly believing that Tony can't be trusted, she
should move out.
>
>> True, but until she is willing to let go of the past behavior how is
>> Tony supposed to feel like he is being encouraged to move on too?
>
>In time, she will be. Right now, she's flaming pissed. Dealing with
>betrayal takes time. It's a process. He has to be patient with her; after
>all, *he* is the one breaking the marriage vows repeatedly. Should she be
>the doormat again and just forgive? Isn't it more normal and realistic for
>her to freak out for a while?
Good point
>
>> So Carmela encouraging Vic Musto is a case of two wrongs don't make a
>> right
>
>Except that the magnitude of her wrong in this case is very small compared
>to his. Nothing actually did happen, for whatever reason, and even if it
>did, that's one infidelity compared to dozens.
Except the fallout from none of Tony's affair put anyone's life in
danger
>
>Huh? No, I never said that. I said, why is Carmella's attempt at an affair
>more pathetic than all Tony's affairs? B/c she's the woman, she can't just
>call up Furio and have him cap Irina? Also, note: Carmella did not
>understand why Vic didn't show up for their date. She really thought he
>didn't want to do an immoral thing and break up her marriage. It was only
>when her work-out pal told her that it was b/c of Tony that he realized why
>Vic backed out. That was definitely a revelation to her. It's not like she
>wanted to put Vic at risk.
Well she also didn't like the answer either, b/c she huffed on
upstairs in a fit of pique. She wants something in men that doesn't
really exist
>
>The fact is, Tony can get away with his affairs b/c he's a man and a mobster
>and she can't b/c she's a woman and a mobster's wife. Hard to say who's
>more pathetic in that equation.
Tony is more honorable in knowing that he has the option to cheat b/c
of the mobster lifestyle and deciding to turn away from that, even if
short term. Carmela is more pathetic by accepting that those are the
rules of how they live and staying.
>> True. As Carmela enjoys the fruits of Tony's earnings every night.
>
>Awww, c'mon. As if Carmella is only in this for the money. Do you think
>that 18 years of marriage, two kids, all the crap they've been through, she
>just stays for the Benjamins? No way.
I think that the lifestyle that comes from ill gotten gains also makes
it easier to put on blinders and decide that playing the martyred wife
is acceptable to her mindset than turning her back on all of it and
either statrting fresh with her kids, even working a cash register
than living a lie. She see's Tony as much as a possession than any
love she has shown to him.
Yes, she enjoys the money and all
>the trappings, no doubt. But there is love between them.
I think the only episdoe where we have seen that dynamic displayed
recently was when Drinkwater was killed.
Irina flat-out
>admitted that without Tony, she'd have to go back to being a hooker. She
>needs him for his cash. No comparison.
Granted
PattyC4303
I actually see many of your points in this thread. BUT.
You don't seem to be acknowledging that he ended it with Irina about a
nanosecond ago. You don't get all happy and sweet as the cheated-on wife quite
so fast after the end of the spouse's affair. The "bile" is kind of a
byproduct that goes on for a bit of time, even IF you now are on the straight
and narrow.
JUST saying you are a BIT hard on Carm for being hostile and untrusting when
it's all so recent.
PattyC<---- who does believe that women who put up with shit, usually are doing
so for some dumb reason or another. Though at least if the reason is a good
lifestyle, it seems "smarter" than when it's just total insecurity and fear of
fending for one's self...
Semmens
Torris wrote:
>
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:51:20 GMT, kar...@SPUDSnac.net (CupCaked )
> wrote:
>
> >>so now he's being damned for future behavior too?
> >
> >There's a very true, old adage(s) about history repeating itself and
> >about those who don't learn from history being damned to repeat it.
> >Maybe Tony doesn't know this, but Carmella seems to.
>
> I don't believe that a person should be excoriated for something they
> *might* do in the future hence, only what they have done. That is
> patently unfair. I don't care if they didn't learn their lesson from
> past behavior or not
>
So how do you feel about child molesters?
> >
Laura
hart
irina, and *we* know that he broke it off, but assuming that
carmella doesn't watch HBO, she *doesn't* know. let's not judge
her actions based on what we know. (memo to me: these are
*not* real people.....)
hart
Where are we going? And why are we in this handbasket?
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
wildearth
Torris wrote in message <38f004f2....@news.uswest.net>...
>On 08 Apr 2000 21:46:47 GMT, patty...@aol.com (PattyC4303) wrote:
>
>>Torris,
>>
>>I actually see many of your points in this thread. BUT.
>>
>>You don't seem to be acknowledging that he ended it with Irina about a
>>nanosecond ago. You don't get all happy and sweet as the cheated-on wife
quite
>>so fast after the end of the spouse's affair. The "bile" is kind of a
>>byproduct that goes on for a bit of time, even IF you now are on the
straight
>>and narrow.
>>
>>JUST saying you are a BIT hard on Carm for being hostile and untrusting
when
>>it's all so recent.
>
>well deserved, but it is actually doing more harm then good to rub
>tony's nose in shit about what a philandering fuck he's been. So let's
>check the scorecard. Tony just ended his affair with the nubile
>Russian and Carmela is going to work on rehabilitating their marriage
>by...... a three week trip to Rome. What the fuck is Tony supposed to
>make of that?
Carmela, like Tony, is working at rehabilitating herself first. The
vacation is her therapy. Then she can work on the marriage. Why is that
stubborn and why is that selfish?
While she's away, a smart Tony would realize that he's taken his wife for
granted one too many times, and an even smarter Tony might realize that he's
a sex addict.
KatsMomAz
hart wrote...>
(memo to me: these are *not* real people.....)
Thanks alot for ruining it for me. You should have put in some spoiler space.
I suppose you next idea of a sick joke is to tell me that there is no "Wizard
of Oz"
:)))
Torris
wrote:
They should be castrated with a dull butter knife and then have their
wounds cauterized with gasoline for the crimes they have committed....
not as a pre-emptive punishment for crimes they might commit down the
road. Answer your question?
Torris
>Torris,
>
>I actually see many of your points in this thread. BUT.
>
>You don't seem to be acknowledging that he ended it with Irina about a
>nanosecond ago. You don't get all happy and sweet as the cheated-on wife quite
>so fast after the end of the spouse's affair. The "bile" is kind of a
>byproduct that goes on for a bit of time, even IF you now are on the straight
>and narrow.
>
>JUST saying you are a BIT hard on Carm for being hostile and untrusting when
>it's all so recent.
You're right. I just see this behavior as stubbornness on Carm's part,
well deserved, but it is actually doing more harm then good to rub
tony's nose in shit about what a philandering fuck he's been. So let's
check the scorecard. Tony just ended his affair with the nubile
Russian and Carmela is going to work on rehabilitating their marriage
by...... a three week trip to Rome. What the fuck is Tony supposed to
make of that?
Torris
wrote:
>Carmela, like Tony, is working at rehabilitating herself first. The
>vacation is her therapy. Then she can work on the marriage.
Could be too late by then in Tony lurches back into old behavior while
she's away
Why is that
>stubborn and why is that selfish?
>
>While she's away, a smart Tony would realize that he's taken his wife for
>granted one too many times,
Goes to show how differently men and women must think. B/c I would see
Carmela's jaunt to Tony as a way of isolating him in the doghouse so
to speak. You think Tony is going to be chastened by this act that was
decided and determined without his input or involvement?
>and an even smarter Tony might realize that he's
>a sex addict.
Tony likes having sex with young beautiful and willing women? Jesus
what a freak.
wildearth
Torris wrote in message <38f01009....@news.uswest.net>...
>On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:51:02 -0400, "wildearth" <wild...@vathek.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Carmela, like Tony, is working at rehabilitating herself first. The
>>vacation is her therapy. Then she can work on the marriage.
>
>Could be too late by then in Tony lurches back into old behavior while
>she's away
He will revert back to his old behavior, regardless. At least she has a
right to think that way based on his past history. I know you rebuked the
idea of being blamed for past mistakes, but a long pattern of behavior does
exist.
>
> Why is that
>>stubborn and why is that selfish?
>>
>>While she's away, a smart Tony would realize that he's taken his wife for
>>granted one too many times,
>
>Goes to show how differently men and women must think.
Yes, I think so. ;)
>B/c I would see
>Carmela's jaunt to Tony as a way of isolating him in the doghouse so
>to speak.
I can see why you'd think that. But I don't think that's true. Carmela
needs time to recover, and that is understandable. She feels she's been
neglected, so she's treating herself. No, she's not sweet about it, but who
could expect her to be. It's not like she issued serious ultimatums. He
got away with a vacation and a smart remark. That's nothin'!
>You think Tony is going to be chastened by this act that was
>decided and determined without his input or involvement?
Yes. It should show him how much his imput and involvement has been missing
all along. She is precluded from involvement in his life, but he
deliberately avoids hers.
>>and an even smarter Tony might realize that he's
>>a sex addict.
>
> Tony likes having sex with young beautiful and willing women? Jesus
>what a freak.
Noooo. I'm not saying that it is freakish to like having sex with young
beautiful women. I'm saying that when it becomes a compulsion that you
cannot control, particularly for the sake of your marriage, then you have a
problem.
WildE
>"Rehab is for quitters"
Ooops! ;)
wildearth
wildearth wrote in message <8cp148$aoe$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>...
>
Two corrections:
>
>Yes. It should show him how much his imput and involvement
<self-flame> Bwahahaha. "Input."
snip....
>
>Noooo. I'm not saying that it is freakish to like having sex with young
>beautiful women. I'm saying that when it becomes a compulsion that you
>cannot control, particularly for the sake of your marriage, then you have
a
>problem.
JMO, of course.
There.
Torris
wrote:
>>Could be too late by then in Tony lurches back into old behavior while
>>she's away
>
>He will revert back to his old behavior, regardless.
How do you know that? I can't believe how cynical some of you woman
are. Isn't Tony trying to gain a sense of self and where he has gone
wrong in therapy.
>>B/c I would see
>>Carmela's jaunt to Tony as a way of isolating him in the doghouse so
>>to speak.
>
>I can see why you'd think that. But I don't think that's true. Carmela
>needs time to recover, and that is understandable.
I can understand that motivation on her part
She feels she's been
>neglected, so she's treating herself. No, she's not sweet about it, but who
>could expect her to be. It's not like she issued serious ultimatums.
She knows that any ultimatum issued will fail with him.
>>You think Tony is going to be chastened by this act that was
>>decided and determined without his input or involvement?
>
>
>Yes. It should show him how much his imput and involvement has been missing
>all along. She is precluded from involvement in his life, but he
>deliberately avoids hers.
Well don't think he's gonna agree to your "genital cuff" scenario
anytime soon. He's a man not a mouse. The fact that you have said
above about how they are so out of synch in communication appears to
me to be a case of roommates rather than man and wife. I think that is
more hopeless than Tony keeping it zipped up longterm
>Noooo. I'm not saying that it is freakish to like having sex with young
>beautiful women. I'm saying that when it becomes a compulsion that you
>cannot control, particularly for the sake of your marriage, then you have a
>problem.
I would htink that it becomes a compulsion if he has sex with a myriad
of different women. Outside of the born again secretary, for the past
two years Tony was limiting his infidelity to Irina. While that
shouldn't make him a candidate for sainthood, it doesn't make him an
impulsive horndog sticking it in knotholes either
wildearth
Torris wrote in message <38f01a8c....@news.uswest.net>...
>On Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:36:31 -0400, "wildearth" <wild...@vathek.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>>Could be too late by then in Tony lurches back into old behavior while
>>>she's away
>>
>>He will revert back to his old behavior, regardless.
>
>How do you know that? I can't believe how cynical some of you woman
>are.
It's not cynicism. It's the game of odds. It is more illogical to think
that he wouldn't do it again.
>Isn't Tony trying to gain a sense of self and where he has gone
>wrong in therapy.
Tony appears to be doing a decent job in therapy (as decent as one could
expect), and yes he is trying. Part of the trying is recognizing the
aggravation he's caused others, and the willingness to accept the
consequences of his behavior.
>>>B/c I would see
>>>Carmela's jaunt to Tony as a way of isolating him in the doghouse so
>>>to speak.
>>
>>I can see why you'd think that. But I don't think that's true. Carmela
>>needs time to recover, and that is understandable.
>
>I can understand that motivation on her part
>
> She feels she's been
>>neglected, so she's treating herself. No, she's not sweet about it, but
who
>>could expect her to be. It's not like she issued serious ultimatums.
>
>She knows that any ultimatum issued will fail with him.
Sure. Exactly. She doesn't want the marriage to fail. She needs a break.
She's aggravated. Don't misunderstand me, I don't see Carmela as a victim.
>>>You think Tony is going to be chastened by this act that was
>>>decided and determined without his input or involvement?
>>
>>
>>Yes. It should show him how much his imput and involvement has been
missing
>>all along. She is precluded from involvement in his life, but he
>>deliberately avoids hers.
>
>Well don't think he's gonna agree to your "genital cuff" scenario
>anytime soon. He's a man not a mouse.
So? Men admit mistakes.
>The fact that you have said
>above about how they are so out of synch in communication appears to
>me to be a case of roommates rather than man and wife. I think that is
>more hopeless than Tony keeping it zipped up longterm
I think that they are problems of equal stature.
>>Noooo. I'm not saying that it is freakish to like having sex with young
>>beautiful women. I'm saying that when it becomes a compulsion that you
>>cannot control, particularly for the sake of your marriage, then you have
a
>>problem.
>
>I would htink that it becomes a compulsion if he has sex with a myriad
>of different women. Outside of the born again secretary, for the past
>two years Tony was limiting his infidelity to Irina. While that
>shouldn't make him a candidate for sainthood, it doesn't make him an
>impulsive horndog sticking it in knotholes either
Ok. If that's the case, agreed.
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> >Thanks for being willing to see that and admit it. I'm far from an
> >Archie Bunker when it comes to female/male relationships but Carmela's
> >inconsistency borders on self righteous expediency.
>
> Carmella is doing what she needs to do to continue living the life
You say this as though she's had no choices in the life she finds
herself living (obviously not true). We (I, anyway) know very little
about Carmela's family life growing up. I'm curious about her teen years
& her families' "associates", legit or not.
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
> On Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:55:48 GMT, kar...@SPUDSnac.net (CupCaked )
> wrote:
>
> >Not really. What else can you do, though? One has to be smart enough
> >to know what they can change and what they have to learn to live with,
> >all the while dodging the other little complications of life.
>
> Which is what Tony, by ending it with Irina, is trying to do. That is
> one aspect of his life that he can change. He was never in love with
> Irina, had no children with her. The important relationship is with
> his wife. So when he is trying to do the right thing, he is met with
> rage and distrust. How can he put his behavior behind him when he is
> damned by it at ever turn
That's what makes this show (& real life, for that matter) so maddening.
Tony finally gets around to something which should be a good move, but
Carmela's distrustful because she's been burned so many times. How does
Tony learn to pursue behaving better, because it doesn't include the
instant gratification he expects (so I don't think his prospects are
very good), and Carmela will never be convinced until she sees Tony make
several good moves in a row. Melfi, or another shrink, is Tony's best
bet here, but it's still not clear if he understands that. He's
programmed to reject what the patient needs to do in therapy as unmanly
or victimization, or both. I think some of his advances did come from
learning that his father had panic attacks & that he had a retarded
uncle, this way he feels like less of a failure & less of a freak.
Bill L
Bill Lynch
Or Tooth Fairy (for those of us who also watch "South Park". They had
their first new show last week after three months, or so, and I was
thinking they might toss in a reference to "The Sopranos". Sure enough
they did - the 8 year old running the "Tooth Fairy Scam", always dressed
in the pinstriped ("gangster") suit)
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> Carmella is Catholic and, right or wrong, she will stay in her
> marriage for that reason alone. She also loves Tony. She has a
> family. And yes, she has a way of life she enjoys. That doesn't make
> her complicit in Tony's affairs. That's kinda like saying Tony's
> allowed outside activities because his wife doesn't like or won't
> indulge him certain sexual favors. The shit he has to deal with is a
> result of his own choices about what he wanted to do outside his
> marriage.
I get the impression that you think Tony's the only one to blame, but I
see it as a more even situation. Who knows what Carmela expected re:
Tony's fidelity before Livia's heartwarming advice to her when Carm was
about to be married?
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
> >>
> >So how do you feel about child molesters?
> >> >
> >
> >Laura
>
> They should be castrated with a dull butter knife and then have their
> wounds cauterized with gasoline for the crimes they have committed....
> not as a pre-emptive punishment for crimes they might commit down the
> road. Answer your question?
Child molesters strike me as an ideal application of the death penalty,
i.e., their crimes are unspeakable, and their chances of reform are
close to nil, so what's the point in keeping them around forever? It
might not deter others, but it will prevent this guy from destroying
some other family's lives. I would not want to be the person in the
justice system explaining to the devastated parents of some poor kid
exactly why this guy was set free again after what he'd already been
convicted of.
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
> > >I don't think that's fair. Carmella knows she's complicit, I think.
> She's
> > >bargaining, in her own mind-- if he'll stop cheating, she can deal with
> the
> > >mafia stuff.
> >
> > fidelity is more important than murder and stealing? Helps prove my
> > point of her selfishness
>
> Tony is not murdering or steal from Carmella, so she can stay out of it.
> that he stop. She signed up for the mobster shit when she married him. I
> don't think she signed up for the cheating.
Really? In the immortal words of Michael Corleone, "now who's being
naive?".
Bill L :-)
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> Awww, c'mon. As if Carmella is only in this for the money. Do you think
> that 18 years of marriage, two kids, all the crap they've been through, she
> the trappings, no doubt. But there is love between them. Irina flat-out
> admitted that without Tony, she'd have to go back to being a hooker. She
> needs him for his cash. No comparison.
(2nd response, which I meant to mention earlier) Does Irina remind
anyone else of Cio-Cio San (Butterfly)? She said death would better than
going back to being a geisha, i.e., dancing ("Morta! morta! mai piu
danzar! Piuttosto la mia vita vo' troncar! Ah! Morta!, translated as: "I
would rather face death than dance again! I would rather cut short my
life! Ah! Death!") and spoke later of how it was all over for her now,
etc. ("tutto e morto per me, tutto e finito").
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> You're right. I just see this behavior as stubbornness on Carm's part,
> well deserved, but it is actually doing more harm then good to rub
> tony's nose in shit about what a philandering fuck he's been. So let's
> check the scorecard. Tony just ended his affair with the nubile
> Russian and Carmela is going to work on rehabilitating their marriage
> by...... a three week trip to Rome. What the fuck is Tony supposed to
> make of that?
He should wish her "Bon voyage" and tell her he'll miss her while she's
gone.
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
> Torris wrote in message <38f01009....@news.uswest.net>...
> >On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:51:02 -0400, "wildearth" <wild...@vathek.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Carmela, like Tony, is working at rehabilitating herself first. The
> >>vacation is her therapy. Then she can work on the marriage.
> >
> >she's away
>
> right to think that way based on his past history. I know you rebuked the
> idea of being blamed for past mistakes, but a long pattern of behavior does
> exist.
You've convicted Tony here of crimes not yet committed. Yes, he has a
bad track record and I agree he's more likely to fail here than to
succeed; but we shouldn't nail his balls to the wall until he does get
the next mistress. Maybe he's learned from has past failures and will
get it right this time?
BTW, do we know where Tony met Irina - wasn't the Bada Bing, was it?
Bill L
LambyO
ok.....good one!
A~
This is a dark ride...........
Kenlybelt
>stubborn and why is that selfish?
I don't buy this. One "rehabilitates" when one is broken. Have we seen any
evidence that Carmela sees that she has contributed at all to the problems in
her marriage?
Vacation as therapy: a few years back, I was an at-home mom with a toddler and
3 year old twins. Between keeping them from killing themselves and each other,
restocking the Ipecac, Doctor, Gymboree, reading to them, and enhancing each's
individuality and self-esteem, I, for one, longed for a life of Georgette
Klinger Jours de Beaute, husband-approved take-out, and time to read Memoirs of
a Geisha. What does she need a vacation from?
She is not using the time to clear her head: she already knows her choice.
The problem in her marriage is that she doesn't feel a closeness with Tony. She
does not feel like she knows him. Going away to make a point (and apparently
piss him off) might be understandable, and justifiable, but in the long run,
not real smart.
What does it mean to "work on?" It's not an abstract, intellectual exercise to
plot out while in Rome. It's the actual time spent, the taking a deep breath
and reaching out in specific moments. Why not use a moment like when one finds
that one's husband has been both truthful and faithful? A leap of faith, to be
sure, but if your marriage is at stake...
Kenly
Torris
I don't know what the percentages are, but a goodly amount of
molestation cases occur with families.
Torris
>>Carmela, like Tony, is working at rehabilitating herself first. The
>>vacation is her therapy. Then she can work on the marriage. Why is that
>>stubborn and why is that selfish?
>
>
>I don't buy this. One "rehabilitates" when one is broken. Have we seen any
>evidence that Carmela sees that she has contributed at all to the problems in
>her marriage?
>
>Vacation as therapy: a few years back, I was an at-home mom with a toddler and
>3 year old twins. Between keeping them from killing themselves and each other,
>restocking the Ipecac, Doctor, Gymboree, reading to them, and enhancing each's
>individuality and self-esteem, I, for one, longed for a life of Georgette
>Klinger Jours de Beaute, husband-approved take-out, and time to read Memoirs of
>a Geisha. What does she need a vacation from?
Not only that K, she has a maid to clean up after everyone now too
>
>She is not using the time to clear her head: she already knows her choice.
>
>The problem in her marriage is that she doesn't feel a closeness with Tony. She
>does not feel like she knows him. Going away to make a point (and apparently
>piss him off) might be understandable, and justifiable, but in the long run,
>not real smart.
I look at that as the Samson approach. A self abusive decision that
could have disastrous results but she's willing to pull it all down in
a crashing heap around them, just to make Tony "suffer". Three weeks
of Tony all alone after the murder and mulching of Richie, Janice on
the run, his incredibly evil mother sticking it to his self esteem
again after a year of total avoidance, Irina's suicide attempt. Yeah,
I'm sure he's going to stay home alone, read some Men are From Mars,
Women are From Venus claptrap and sit by the phone waiting for
Carmela's call. Only venturing out to play chauffeur for AJ
>
>What does it mean to "work on?" It's not an abstract, intellectual exercise to
>plot out while in Rome. It's the actual time spent, the taking a deep breath
>and reaching out in specific moments. Why not use a moment like when one finds
>that one's husband has been both truthful and faithful? A leap of faith, to be
>sure, but if your marriage is at stake...
Because it's a war, not a marraige any longer. And what was all that
getting an audience with the Holy Father all about?
wildearth
Bill Lynch wrote in message <38F02DC7...@worldnet.att.net>...
>wildearth wrote:
>>
>> Torris wrote in message <38f01009....@news.uswest.net>...
>> >On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:51:02 -0400, "wildearth" <wild...@vathek.com>
>> >
>> >
>> >>Carmela, like Tony, is working at rehabilitating herself first. The
>> >>vacation is her therapy. Then she can work on the marriage.
>> >
>> >she's away
>>
>> He will revert back to his old behavior, regardless. At least she has a
>> right to think that way based on his past history. I know you rebuked
the
>> idea of being blamed for past mistakes, but a long pattern of behavior
does
>> exist.
>
>You've convicted Tony here of crimes not yet committed. Yes, he has a
>bad track record and I agree he's more likely to fail here than to
>succeed; but we shouldn't nail his balls to the wall until he does get
>the next mistress. Maybe he's learned from has past failures and will
>get it right this time?
>
gently attached them to the wall with some nice fuzzy velcro. ;)
The point is that I haven't convicted him, I agree with what you
said...."he's more likely to fail here than succeed."
>BTW, do we know where Tony met Irina - wasn't the Bada Bing, was it?
Was it?
>
>Bill L
wildearth
Kenlybelt wrote in message <20000409091124...@ng-fh1.aol.com>...
>>Carmela, like Tony, is working at rehabilitating herself first. The
>>stubborn and why is that selfish?
>
>
>I don't buy this. One "rehabilitates" when one is broken. Have we seen any
>evidence that Carmela sees that she has contributed at all to the problems
in
>her marriage?
I don't agree that one initially needs to be aware of the their part in the
problem to feel broken. One can feel broken and have no idea as to why or
how they play a part in it. I think Carmela thinks of it as rehabilitation
in the sense that she's going to come back refreshed and ready to deal with
her life.
>Vacation as therapy: a few years back, I was an at-home mom with a toddler
and
>3 year old twins. Between keeping them from killing themselves and each
other,
>restocking the Ipecac, Doctor, Gymboree, reading to them, and enhancing
each's
>individuality and self-esteem, I, for one, longed for a life of Georgette
>Klinger Jours de Beaute, husband-approved take-out, and time to read
Memoirs of
>a Geisha. What does she need a vacation from?
I agree that you or I might think that, particularly if you compare Carm's
glamorous life to an ordinary one. But that's like saying rich and famous
people do not experience stress or need vacations to get away from it all.
It's not true. Everything is relative.
>She is not using the time to clear her head: she already knows her choice.
Don't tell her that!
>The problem in her marriage is that she doesn't feel a closeness with Tony.
She
>does not feel like she knows him. Going away to make a point (and
apparently
>piss him off) might be understandable, and justifiable, but in the long
run,
>not real smart.
Do you think she'd go away if she did not feel like she knew him? I doubt
it. Because she knows him, she knows she can get away with going away.
>What does it mean to "work on?" It's not an abstract, intellectual
exercise to
>plot out while in Rome. It's the actual time spent, the taking a deep
breath
>and reaching out in specific moments.
When you are too close to a problem, you sometimes need to get away simply
to gain perspective. Carmela is not intellectual, and so she does not gain
perspective that way. It appears that Rome, a place that reminds her of her
religious roots, will do that for her by comforting her beliefs.
>Why not use a moment like when one finds
>that one's husband has been both truthful and faithful? A leap of faith,
to be
>sure, but if your marriage is at stake...
Carmela's been taking leaps of faith all along, now she's a leapin' over to
Rome! Let Tony take the leap of faith and hope that his wife will come
back.
>Kenly
>
>
Torris
wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:00:03 GMT, tor...@uswest.net (Torris) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:38:16 GMT, kar...@SPUDSnac.net (CupCaked )
>>wrote:
>
>>>BTW: Bob Marley was a very gifted dude and I love his music, but I
>>>wouldn't use his lyrics as anthems for any serious life conflict
>>>resolutions.
>
>>Really? To me the guy is a revolutionary poet whose music guides my
>>moral compass more than any politician or clergy man ever could
>
>You're kidding, right?
Why would you think that?
> He was high most of the time.
Most of our best European poets were lushes or junkies. Maybe you
don't think someone as "unkempt" as him could have anything meaningful
to say?
His lyrics were
>the result of an almost constant self-induced mood elevation,
Jesus, name me one artist who isn't in constant mood elevation. Other
than Donny and Marie of course
probably
>because he couldn't bother with his Real World. If anybody needed a
>"moral compass", he did.
He's the Tony Soprano of Jamaica :-). I don't know where you get your
information on the man, but there are several biographies out there.
It might do you a bit of good to read about him before you open your
mouth about something you obviously no very little about. I'll
recommend two: Timothy White's Catch a Fire and Stephen Davis Bob
Marley. I'll guarantee they're a more enlightening read them Memoirs
of a Geisha.
peggo
Define your real world and "moral compass".
peggo
"CupCaked " wrote
> You're kidding, right? He was high most of the time. His lyrics were
> the result of an almost constant self-induced mood elevation, probably
> because he couldn't bother with his Real World. If anybody needed a
> "moral compass", he did.
>
> JMHO, though
>
> Karen
> - - -
Torris
wrote:
>When you are too close to a problem, you sometimes need to get away simply
>to gain perspective. Carmela is not intellectual, and so she does not gain
>perspective that way. It appears that Rome, a place that reminds her of her
>religious roots, will do that for her by comforting her beliefs.
>
yes, another shallow show of religion as expediency
PattyC4303
EXACTLY. Especially the "I'll miss you part." (And, it would help if he
didn't screw anyone while she's gone.... , gave her a big hungry kiss on
return...etc.)
PattyC<---always wondering, since we females are reallly so "easy," to deal
with, that so many males don't *get it.*
peggo
peggo
"CupCaked " <kar...@SPUDSnac.net> wrote in message
news:3902a895...@news.nac.net...
> On Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:48:14 -0500, "peggo" <peg...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Does being high most of the time make him less of an artist?
>
> Nope. And I didn't say that.
>
> >Define your real world and "moral compass".
>
> I'm sure my definition of both would be very different from yours, so
> it really doesn't make much sense for me to indulge you, does it?
>
> Karen
>
> - - -
>
> http://www.unofficial.net/cupcaked
> (and leave off the "potatoes" to e-mail)
Torris
wrote:
>
>>PattyC<---always wondering, since we females are reallly so "easy," to deal
>>with, that so many males don't *get it.*
>
>You think somebody would have written a manual and gotten rich a long
>time ago, it's really such a simple thing ;-)
If only women thought like men, then there would be a much better
chance for harmony and understanding :-)
PattyC4303
thread. But, just wondering if you have READ Memoirs of a Geisha? (And, yeah,
with predjudice, thinking likely not...)
PattyC<--read it, but had trouble reconciling what I read with a best female
pal's comment that is was the *best* book she'd ever read. (Also trying to
think if I could name the best book I've ever read...)
Torris
>JUST curious, Torris, since I again am getting your overall point in this
>thread.
Scary isn't it? :-)
But, just wondering if you have READ Memoirs of a Geisha? (And,
yeah,
>with predjudice, thinking likely not...)
My name ain't Alan Alda, does that answer your question :)
Unfortunately with the internet, who has time to read anymore.
Although after seeing High Fidelity I'm gonna pick up a copy of Nick
Hornby's book
RCLOVELY
>>BTW, do we know where Tony met Irina - wasn't the Bada Bing, was it?
>
>Was it?
>>
Behind the perfume counter while buying a birthday gift for Carmella. ( Clare
Booth Luce's, The Women)
RC
wildearth
Kenlybelt
> I think Carmela thinks of it as rehabilitation in the sense that she's going
to come back refreshed and ready to deal with her life...When you are too
close to a problem, you sometimes need to get away simply to gain perspective.
Carmela is not intellectual, and so she does not gain perspective that way. It
appears that Rome, a place that reminds her of her
religious roots, will do that for her by comforting her beliefs..
Of course Carmela sees her situation that way. I think she's quite sincere.
That's why we have psychiatrists and their ilk - because of the unconscious and
self-deception.
The fact is, we have all lived with Tony's nonsense for two years, as well as
Carm's whining about fidelity and being part of his life. We (carm included)
finally see him be honest with her (and it was representative of his new
faithfulness - although I'd hate to give him too much credit here), and what is
her response? For all her stress, love of travel, desire to hang with Rosalie,
need to meet the Holy Father - - which all have existed for a while - - Tony's
stab at being a good husband was met by Carm's turning and running (last year
it was to Father Phil, this year it's John Paul!) Why now?
Wildearth also wrote:
Let Tony take the leap of faith and hope that his wife will come back.
OK, here's the ugly pragmatist in me: Tony ain't going to take more than a baby
step of faith. Fair, no, but he's not the one unhappy with the status of the
marriage.
If he refuses to leap, she'll refuse to leap. Well, that'll show him!! Things
will stay as they are; Tony can live with that. Carmela is the one dying
inside.
I'm with you - I think both partners should be equally committed to a marriage
and the work involved. But she knew he wasn't going into it. Whatever idealized
belief in relationships we have, out in the real world (although I've read that
this isn't) Tony does not want to change. If Carm wants a sense of peace here,
she's going to have to do more than 50% of the work. She's the one who will
benefit.
Kenly
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> But, just wondering if you have READ Memoirs of a Geisha? (And,
> yeah,
> >with predjudice, thinking likely not...)
>
> My name ain't Alan Alda, does that answer your question :)
One needn't be Alan Alda (or an "Alan Alda") to read & enjoy this book.
> Unfortunately with the internet, who has time to read anymore.
> Although after seeing High Fidelity I'm gonna pick up a copy of Nick
> Hornby's book
I made the same decision last night when I saw HF.
Bill L :-)
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> Because it's a war, not a marraige any longer. And what was all that
> getting an audience with the Holy Father all about?
1. I think of it as an ultimate wet dream for someone who considers
herself a devout Catholic (remember how Adrianna pinned a picture of the
P to Christopher's hospital gown when he was in the hospital?), and
2. I asked a friend more Catholic than I (she attended Catholic schools)
and was told she could probably see the Pope if she made a big enough
donation (like an annulment).
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
> >PattyC<---always wondering, since we females are reallly so "easy," to deal
> >with, that so many males don't *get it.*
>
> You think somebody would have written a manual and gotten rich a long
> time ago, it's really such a simple thing ;-)
Are you (singular or plural) volunteering to write one? I'd be happy to
be a proofreader.
Bill L
wildearth
Kenlybelt wrote in message <20000409134527...@ng-fn1.aol.com>...
>Wildearth wrote:
>
>> I think Carmela thinks of it as rehabilitation in the sense that she's
going
>to come back refreshed and ready to deal with her life...When you are too
>close to a problem, you sometimes need to get away simply to gain
perspective.
>Carmela is not intellectual, and so she does not gain perspective that way.
It
>appears that Rome, a place that reminds her of her
>religious roots, will do that for her by comforting her beliefs..
>
>
>Of course Carmela sees her situation that way. I think she's quite
sincere.
>That's why we have psychiatrists and their ilk - because of the unconscious
and
>self-deception.
>
>The fact is, we have all lived with Tony's nonsense for two years, as well
as
>Carm's whining about fidelity and being part of his life. We (carm
included)
>finally see him be honest with her (and it was representative of his new
>faithfulness - although I'd hate to give him too much credit here),
Right. As a viewer we know that Tony made a sincere effort, but Carm has
every right to doubt him. He's said he's done certain things but only the
audience has seen him do them. We've seen the sincerity and can afford him
the benefit of the doubt, but all Carm has seen is a perfumed shirt and a
suicidal mistress.
Also, it is unreasonable to ask the person who was not been unfaithful to
take the leap of faith. I don't know why anyone would expect that. As I
said, I don't see Carmela as a victim, and only a victim would not protest
in some way. So, her behavior is consistent with the way I perceive the
character.
>and what is
>her response? For all her stress, love of travel, desire to hang with
Rosalie,
>need to meet the Holy Father - - which all have existed for a while - -
Tony's
>stab at being a good husband was met by Carm's turning and running (last
year
>it was to Father Phil, this year it's John Paul!) Why now?
Because she'd just kill herself if she didn't get away. ;) Then she'd be a
victim.
>Wildearth also wrote:
>
>Let Tony take the leap of faith and hope that his wife will come back.
>
>OK, here's the ugly pragmatist in me: Tony ain't going to take more than a
baby
>step of faith. Fair, no, but he's not the one unhappy with the status of
the
>marriage.
That's all Carmela requires for now, a baby step. It will get the delusion
going again.
>If he refuses to leap, she'll refuse to leap. Well, that'll show him!!
Things
>will stay as they are; Tony can live with that. Carmela is the one dying
>inside.
Nope. It'll never happen!
>I'm with you - I think both partners should be equally committed to a
marriage
>and the work involved. But she knew he wasn't going into it. Whatever
idealized
>belief in relationships we have, out in the real world (although I've read
that
>this isn't) Tony does not want to change. If Carm wants a sense of peace
here,
>she's going to have to do more than 50% of the work. She's the one who will
>benefit.
I agree with what you said. Except that I say Carm will do most of the work
once she's refreshed and newly inspired! ;)
Then the cycle continues.
PattyC4303
(FWIW.. like not much!) And you might want to read it if you ever get off the
computer.
Bill L., you are more like that Alan Alda type than you want the *other guys*
here to know. I won't tell.
I really like this ng. Feel almost guilty that I don't know enough about the
Sopranos (yet). I am most enjoying the men and women who participate here.
Then again, I wouldn't miss the finale tonight for anything.
NOW.. I am opening up my dumb soul here. What are you guys talking about with
High Fidelity? Don't want to get any further behind in my being up to date
than ever....
PattyC<---who still is thinking Herman's Hermits are cool... never *quite*
keeping up...;.
arsl...@mediaone.net
(CupCaked ) wrote:
>You're kidding, right? He was high most of the time. His lyrics were
>the result of an almost constant self-induced mood elevation, probably
>because he couldn't bother with his Real World. If anybody needed a
>"moral compass", he did.
Well, if we're talking about an "almost constant self-induced mood
elevation", then that ends up just kind of normal after a while.
Second, if the Real World is too hard on you then what's inherently
wrong with a little chemical help? Prozac, Zoloft, or sum o' that
rich Jamaican Bud -- I know what my druthers are.
Also, smoking dope doesn't say anything at all about your "moral
compass". St. Paul said that a little wine was good for you, didn't
he?
Finally, I get tired of all the folks who went to college in the late
70's early 80's who suddenly never smoked a bowl in their lives, never
did a line, much less anything more dangerous, and only drank two
beers and only on weekends.
Who was I partying with then? Either there are a lot of people who
deny their past or I was high.....oh, right. ;-)
Give me a person with an interesting past over a choir boy any day.
Art
Tetractys
> Who was I partying with then?
That would have been me.
By the way, don't mean to be insensitive, but
does your name mean "big ass" in Latin?
arsl...@mediaone.net
wrote:
>> Tony likes having sex with young beautiful and willing women? Jesus
>>what a freak.
>
>Not a "freak", just a married man. That pretty well wraps it up for
>Tony and his womanizing. There's no excuses, since he promised to be
>faithful in his marriage, vows that are similar to the ones he took to
>his other "family"
When following the rules conflicts with following your instincts,
you're going to end up with some inconsistencies. Tony is a character
with massive appetites.
Art
Bill Lynch
>
> Torris, I like your answer. You are a pretty honest guy; two points in my book
> (FWIW.. like not much!) And you might want to read it if you ever get off the
> computer.
>
> Bill L., you are more like that Alan Alda type than you want the *other guys*
> here to know. I won't tell.
How so? I don't care if you reply in public.
> I really like this ng. Feel almost guilty that I don't know enough about the
> Sopranos (yet). I am most enjoying the men and women who participate here.
>
> Then again, I wouldn't miss the finale tonight for anything.
>
> NOW.. I am opening up my dumb soul here. What are you guys talking about with
> High Fidelity? Don't want to get any further behind in my being up to date
> than ever....
"High Fidelity" is a movie starring John Cusack which just opened, 4/07,
I think. It's based on the novel with the same name written by a Brit
(who was also listed as a screenwriter). Cusack runs a record store
(yes, vinyl) in Chicago and his personal life is a mess. I thought it
was terrific. www.imdb.com has a review and tons of other info, if
you're interested. Unless you're Danish, you'll probably find the name
of the woman who played Laura unusual, i.e., Iben Hjejle, IIRC.
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> Second, if the Real World is too hard on you then what's inherently
> wrong with a little chemical help? Prozac, Zoloft, or sum o' that
> rich Jamaican Bud -- I know what my druthers are.
I think a person who needs Prozac, or something like it, won't be helped
very much by a spliff, although I think there's a lot to be said for
Prozac & weed (these are not mutually exclusive).
> Also, smoking dope doesn't say anything at all about your "moral
> compass". St. Paul said that a little wine was good for you, didn't
> he?
St. Paul? OY Isn't he also the one who said it's better to marry than to
burn? Quite the misogynist, our Paul.
> Finally, I get tired of all the folks who went to college in the late
> 70's early 80's who suddenly never smoked a bowl in their lives, never
> did a line, much less anything more dangerous, and only drank two
> beers and only on weekends.
>
> Who was I partying with then? Either there are a lot of people who
> deny their past or I was high.....oh, right. ;-)
Amen to that, a particularly annoying kind of hypocrisy (like my ex
wife). For several years one of her favorite social gatherings was "a
pot party with Randy & Pete" (early to mid-70's). By the mid 80's she
thought drugs were terrible & she hadn't done them (this from a lecture
to our oldest son - I did call her on this). I, for one, didn't
"experiment" with anything, I got really drunk & really high (but never
missed work, or anything, let's be real). From what I've read about
Gore, he was zonked for the best part of a few years. Bush Lite's Deke
nickname wasn't "8-ball" for nothing, either:-)
Bill L
arsl...@mediaone.net
>PattyC<---always wondering, since we females are reallly so "easy," to deal
>with, that so many males don't *get it.*
LOL
I had the same conversation with my father and brother yesterday,
except it went the other way!
Art
arsl...@mediaone.net
<tetr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>By the way, don't mean to be insensitive, but
>does your name mean "big ass" in Latin?
I'll take that (Gladly, I suffer from the little known disease -
noassatall). Actually, it should have been arslonga, the ars being
"art", but having more spanish than latin in my schooling, I screwed
up. I've kept the name to remind myself not to get too uppity. ;-)
Art
Tetractys
> Tetractys wrote:
> >By the way, don't mean to be insensitive, but
> >does your name mean "big ass" in Latin?
> I'll take that (Gladly, I suffer from the little known disease -
> noassatall). Actually, it should have been arslonga, the ars
> being "art", but having more spanish than latin in my schooling,
> I screwed up. I've kept the name to remind myself not to get
> too uppity. ;-)
Heh heh. Actually, I noted the similarity to Ars Longa Vita Brevis,
but couldn't resist, since we're talking about weed on a Sopranos
group. You're a good sport. Sure it doesn't mean "fuckfacitis"?
Just kidding. Here, shake hands. :-)
rubys...@my-deja.com
> Except the fallout from none of Tony's affair put anyone's life in
> danger
What about Irina? Tony was as aware of her suicidal tendencies as
Carmella was of Vic's danger.
More later... but a very interesting discussion so far. Thanks.
-pab-
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
rubys...@my-deja.com
> > She signed up for the mobster shit when she married him. I
> > don't think she signed up for the cheating.
>
> Really? In the immortal words of Michael Corleone, "now who's being
> naive?".
Of course you're right. She was pretty young when they got married,
and she's obviously in serious denial. But that doesn't negate the
fact that I do think she hoped and continues to hope that they can have
a "normal" successful marriage. Remember how she told Fr. Phil that
she used to be relieved that he had a goomar, and now it bothers her?
She is making progress.
I do see love between them. They are at times supportive of each
other, they love their kids, etc. But that's just my opinion.
Other things:
1. I'm pretty sure Tony did meet Irina at Bada Bing. She mentioned
that she was a stripper when she met Tony.
2. I think Carmella going on vacation is a pretty sane move for her,
not self-destructive or meant to screw Tony over. She obviously can't
stop herself from obsessing about his affairs and her own unhappiness.
Maybe time away will bring her some perspective, help Tony appreciate
her. You guys are all over her for being such a nag. Now she's trying
to give and get some space from the relationship. Yes, this could make
or break them, but either way, something will happen.
Torris
<wbl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>arsl...@mediaone.net wrote:
>>
>(snip)
>>
>> Second, if the Real World is too hard on you then what's inherently
>> wrong with a little chemical help? Prozac, Zoloft, or sum o' that
>> rich Jamaican Bud -- I know what my druthers are.
>
>I think a person who needs Prozac, or something like it, won't be helped
>very much by a spliff, although I think there's a lot to be said for
>Prozac & weed (these are not mutually exclusive).
Huge difference. One is a natural growing plant the other is cooked in
a lab.
>
>Amen to that, a particularly annoying kind of hypocrisy (like my ex
>wife). For several years one of her favorite social gatherings was "a
>pot party with Randy & Pete" (early to mid-70's). By the mid 80's she
>thought drugs were terrible & she hadn't done them (this from a lecture
>to our oldest son - I did call her on this).
Of course all you boomers who sowed your wild oats became Ward and
June Cleavers when your kids hit the age of 10.
Bill Lynch
Well, for openers, I'm not a boomer.
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
> > > She signed up for the mobster shit when she married him. I
> > > don't think she signed up for the cheating.
> >
> > Really? In the immortal words of Michael Corleone, "now who's being
> > naive?".
>
> Of course you're right.
Hey, thanks. This is a first for me:-)
> Other things:
> 1. I'm pretty sure Tony did meet Irina at Bada Bing. She mentioned
> that she was a stripper when she met Tony.
I think I caught a line in the repeat of last week's episode in which
Irina said something like "back to Bada Bing".
> 2. I think Carmella going on vacation is a pretty sane move for her,
> not self-destructive or meant to screw Tony over. She obviously can't
> stop herself from obsessing about his affairs and her own unhappiness.
> Maybe time away will bring her some perspective, help Tony appreciate
> her. You guys are all over her for being such a nag. Now she's trying
> to give and get some space from the relationship. Yes, this could make
> or break them, but either way, something will happen.
I agree it's a good idea for Carmela to take a trip; but that coat sure
cheered her up. <g> She was very supportive & caring of Tony when he was
sick.
Bill L
PattyC4303
sometimes *share* much or even some of the female perspective...
And thank you for the info about High Fidelity. I was thinkin' I was sooo
behind, but hell, if the movie just came out... I don't feel so out of touch.
I still have not seen 2001.
PattyC :)
arsl...@mediaone.net
wrote:
>>Of course all you boomers who sowed your wild oats became Ward and
>>June Cleavers when your kids hit the age of 10.
>
>How about those of us conscious enough not to have ever had kids :-)
Well, well, Karen. I'd have figured you for the standard 2.5.
Impressive decision, young lady.
Art
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A counted number of pulses only is given to us of a
variegated, dramatic, life. How then may we see in them
all that is to be seen in them by the finest senses?
How shall we pass most swiftly from point to point, and
be present always at the focus where the greatest number
of vital forces unite in their purest energy?
To burn always with this hard gemlike flame, to maintain
this ecstasy, is success in life. -- Walter Pater
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RCLOVELY
Oh poor you! And, I really mean that.
RC
Bill Lynch
>
> JUST that, whether you notice or not, you seem to at least be open to, even
> sometimes *share* much or even some of the female perspective...
Thanks, I guess. Doesn't make me a bad person, does it?
Bill L :-)
Bill Lynch
>
(snip)
>
> I didn't get the impression that she and Rosalie were only interested in a
> private audience with the pope. She she said "*try* and see the holy
> father", she could have just as easily meant a general audience, which he
> has all the time (I seem to recall these sessions are weekly). At any rate,
> tickets are free, and there's a phone number online where you can call to
> request tickets.
Right, Carmela didn't say anything about a private audience; but I'd
guess the tickets to the general audiences are also hard to come by?
Maybe not.
Bill L
Bill Lynch
>
> PattyC4303 wrote:
>
> > always wondering, since we females are reallly so "easy," to deal
> > with, that so many males don't *get it.*
>
> ex. I framed it in terms he could understand: The Blow Job Ratio ("If you buy
> me flowers and compliment me and act like a guy who realizes how great I am,
> the ratio of days in your life where you get blown will go up"). It worked...
> for a while! :)
I think you've discovered another universal constant, like the speed of
light or Avogadro's Constant, "Amyzon's BJ Ratio":-)
How come you're posting from the future? (4/30/2000)
Bill L
Torris
>PattyC4303 wrote:
>
>> always wondering, since we females are reallly so "easy," to deal
>> with, that so many males don't *get it.*
>
>Reminds me of the time I tried to explain the value of little nicities to an
>ex. I framed it in terms he could understand: The Blow Job Ratio ("If you buy
>me flowers and compliment me and act like a guy who realizes how great I am,
>the ratio of days in your life where you get blown will go up"). It worked...
>for a while! :)
Damn. That makes perfect sense to me
ABricko
>By the way, don't mean to be insensitive, >but does your name mean "big ass"
in >Latin?
LMFAO!
abricko
R.P.
>I didn't get the impression that she and Rosalie were only interested in a
>private audience with the pope.
Are you kidding? They're both going to Italy to get some strange. In
Italy where no man knows or much less cares about Tony Soprano.