Noah's Disrespect of Carmella
Pharlap
excuse himself. I though that he showed disrespect to a mother asking to
speak to her daughter alone by Noah saying "I will leave if Meadow wants me
to leave".
Mohicanlady
Pharlap <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
news:98isch$2ic0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow may
have wanted him to stay. What allegiance does he owe Carmela? Especially
since he realized that conversation was most likely going to be about him.
I may be one of the few here, but I really like the addition of this
relationship...for whatever reason Chase added it.
Mohicanlady
Irulan
spoiled brats.
--
Irulan
from the stars we came, to the stars we return
from now until the end of time
"Pharlap" <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
news:98isch$2ic0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Scoog
<Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>I may be one of the few here, but I really like the addition of this
>relationship...for whatever reason Chase added it.
>Mohicanlady
You are definitely "one of the few here". In the three years of
Sopranos episodes I have never seen a character become so disliked and
hated by the vast majority of the viewers, in such a short time. Based
upon the past history of the show, he will be physically hurt very
badly before the season ends.
Best,
Scoog
Userb3
>
>Pharlap <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
>news:98isch$2ic0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>> When Carm wanted to talk to Meadow alone, she politely asked if Noah would
>> excuse himself. I though that he showed disrespect to a mother asking to
>> speak to her daughter alone by Noah saying "I will leave if Meadow wants
>me
>> to leave".
>
>I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow may
>have wanted him to stay.
"technically adults"? While they may be old enough to vote, they're a
couple of kids who still live in the lap of luxury due entirely to the
generosity of their parents. They don't work, they're not responsible
for anyone but themselves, they have no real world experience, and
they'd both be flippin' burgers and living in a dump if they didn't
have Mom and Dad to pick up the tab, wield some influence, and provide
clothes, insurance, car, food, tuition, spending money, stereo, books,
etc etc etc etc.
Sheesh - adults my ass.
> What allegiance does he owe Carmela?
Allegiance? How about to the mother of the girls he's involved with?
How about simple respect for an adult? How about common decency?
>Especially
>since he realized that conversation was most likely going to be about him.
This is relevant how? You suppose the casual boyfriend/girlfriend bond
trumps the mother/daughter bond? A mother is entitled to have a private
conversation with her daughter. A boyfriend isn't entitled to interfere
with that.
--
userb3
"The public is invariably surprised to find out that the top-earning one percent make 18 percent of the money and pay 34 percent of the income taxes."
See http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincome.html
Mohicanlady
Userb3 <use...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:hfreofgneonaqarg...@news.alt.net...
> Mohicanlady wrote
>
> >I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow
may
> >have wanted him to stay.
>
> "technically adults"? While they may be old enough to vote, they're a
> couple of kids who still live in the lap of luxury due entirely to the
> generosity of their parents.
>
> Sheesh - adults my ass.
Adults? Hell yeah. Could Noah be drafted at 18 years and die for his
country? Then he is an adult.
It's still *Meadow's* dorm room, not Carmela's....even if they are paying
for it. I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her* wishes
not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
>
> > What allegiance does he owe Carmela?
>
> Allegiance? How about to the mother of the girls he's involved with?
> How about simple respect for an adult? How about common decency?
Common decency and respect? For who? I'd be damned if I am going to give
respect for a man and woman who hates the color of my skin and hates the
fact that I am with their daughter? Would you, I doubt it?
>Especially
> >since he realized that conversation was most likely going to be about
him.
>
> This is relevant how? You suppose the casual boyfriend/girlfriend bond
> trumps the mother/daughter bond? A mother is entitled to have a private
> conversation with her daughter.
If they were in Carmela's house, I would agree with that statement. But
since they are in Meadow's dorm, I disagree. Meadow could have her mom
booted out of there if she wanted to.
What decade are you people living in...this isn't Mississippi circa
1956...this is NYC 2001. Sheesh......
Mohicanlady
Nicole
>news:hfreofgneonaqarg...@news.alt.net...
>
>> Mohicanlady wrote
>> How about simple respect for an adult? How about common decency?
>
>Common decency and respect? For who? I'd be damned if I am going to give
>respect for a man and woman who hates the color of my skin and hates the
>fact that I am with their daughter? Would you, I doubt it?
When did Carm say she disapproved of Noah? When did she say ANYTHING remotely
racist about him? He was behaving like a snotty little brat and I wanted to
smack him upside the head.
Nicole
FGC Carly, FGCOs S&B, J&C & ZEm
FGCs Danny & Max
Mmmmmm......Hug. Homer Simpson
Respect the Pizza Parlor! Christopher, The Sopranos
We ate cookie dough and talked about boys.
Giles, IWMTLY
Angel/Lindsay&Buffy/Lindsay 'shipper
Danielle Gallo
news:98j19g$5bkc$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> It's still *Meadow's* dorm room, not Carmela's....even if they are paying
> for it. I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her*
wishes
> not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
Um, hello?! Meadow would not even HAVE that dorm room if it weren't for her
parents. She never worked a day in her life, and if M&D stopped paying
tuition/board, I doubt Princess Bing could fend for herself!
Plain and simple, Noah was completely out of line with what he said. These
idealistic "adults" need to get over themselves.
Danielle
chaz man
"Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:98j19g$5bkc$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Userb3
>
>Userb3 <use...@starband.net> wrote in message
>news:hfreofgneonaqarg...@news.alt.net...
>
>> Mohicanlady wrote
>>
>> >I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow
>may
>> >have wanted him to stay.
>>
>> "technically adults"? While they may be old enough to vote, they're a
>> couple of kids who still live in the lap of luxury due entirely to the
>> generosity of their parents.
>>
>> Sheesh - adults my ass.
>
>Adults? Hell yeah. Could Noah be drafted at 18 years and die for his
>country? Then he is an adult.
Big chance of that happening. An adult in the larger sense is
responsible for himself and has some sense of perspective for where he
fits in the larger scheme of things. Self-absorbed silver spooners
living on the parental dole don't qualify just because they've had a
few birthdays.
>It's still *Meadow's* dorm room, not Carmela's....even if they are paying
>for it.
Do tell! I'm guessing you're closer to Meadows age than Carmella's.
When you spend 18 years raising someone, pay for every bit of food that
goes in their mouth, every stitch of clothing on their back, and every
dollar in their pocket, tell me whether you feel like you have any say
about whether or not you can stand in "their" room.
> I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her* wishes
>not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
I think she's hot for the the fact that Noah is a convenient way to
rebel against her parents. She wouldn't be the first girl to pick out a
boyfriend/hairstyle/etc. guaranteed to piss her parents off.
>> > What allegiance does he owe Carmela?
>>
>> Allegiance? How about to the mother of the girls he's involved with?
>> How about simple respect for an adult? How about common decency?
>
>Common decency and respect? For who?
Your fellow man, for starters.
> I'd be damned if I am going to give
>respect for a man and woman who hates the color of my skin and hates the
>fact that I am with their daughter?
What has Carmella said or done to give Noah the idea that she hates
him? She's extended every courtesy, treated him with respect, and
maintained a sense of decorum. Meadow and Noah are the ones screaming
#uck this and #uck that.
>Would you, I doubt it?
Comes up more often than you might think. As luck would have it, I live
in the middle of the bible/redneck belt, and I'm "wrong" on several
counts. I
Let me tell you from hard earned experience - you don't make friends by
screaming #uck at them, especially if you want to hold the moral high
ground.
>>Especially
>> >since he realized that conversation was most likely going to be about
>him.
>>
>> This is relevant how? You suppose the casual boyfriend/girlfriend bond
>> trumps the mother/daughter bond? A mother is entitled to have a private
>> conversation with her daughter.
>
>If they were in Carmela's house, I would agree with that statement. But
>since they are in Meadow's dorm, I disagree.
Meadow's dorm room paid for by Carmella and Tony. Hell, she wouldn't
have gotten in without Carmella's efforts to wrangle recommendations
and favors.
>Meadow could have her mom
>booted out of there if she wanted to.
LOL! I can just imagine the phone call:
security: Hello?
Meadow: I need to have someone thrown out of my dorm room.
security: Are they threatening you? Are you in danger? What's going on?
Meadow: It's my mother and she wants to talk.
security: This is a prank, right?
Meadow: No, really - my mother wants my boyfriend to leave so we can
have a private conversation. I want you to throw her out.
security: Click
>What decade are you people living in...this isn't Mississippi circa
>1956...this is NYC 2001. Sheesh......
What does Mississippi 1956 have to do with Noah's behavior? Noah has a
legitimate beef with Tony, but being a self-rightous ass to Carmella
just shows him to be a spoiled brat. You suppose Martin Luther King
would have talked to the Sopranos the way Noah did (which just
confirmed the stereotype for them), or would he have handled the
situation with some dignity?
userb3
Commander Havok
wrote:
I agree. I thought that was very disrespectful towards Carmela. I was
actually surprised that after he said that Carmela didnt curse him out
as well.
havok
greg orlandini
noah didnt stand, shake his, so any signs of respect to tony in his own
house. i wouldn't let my daughter date him either. not because of his race,
that means nothing to me, but his poor attitude and lack of respect.
--
" In this game, sportsmanship is for young liberals and old fools"
Hunter S. Thompson
"Pharlap" <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
news:98isch$2ic0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Mohicanlady
Userb3 <use...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:hfreofgneonaqarg...@news.alt.net...
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:41:50 -0500, Mohicanlady wrote:
>
> >
> >Userb3 <use...@starband.net> wrote in message
> >news:hfreofgneonaqarg...@news.alt.net...
> >>
> >
> have gotten in without Carmella's efforts to wrangle recommendations
> and favors.
Oh, so then by your logic, Meadow should be a nice little white princess and
listen to ma and pop and not date a negro or she might lose dorm privileges.
> What does Mississippi 1956 have to do with Noah's behavior? Noah has a
> legitimate beef with Tony, but being a self-rightous ass to Carmella
> just shows him to be a spoiled brat. You suppose Martin Luther King
> would have talked to the Sopranos the way Noah did (which just
> confirmed the stereotype for them), or would he have handled the
> situation with some dignity?
OMG....Martin Luther King and Noah in the same sentence. Let me
guess...you're white.. Let's get realistic here. Go back and rewatch the
episode...Noah was a perfect gentlemen until Tony made it perfectly clear
that he didn't want him near Meadow because he was half black. Maybe that
is why Noah's behavior is not "how a good black should act". What did Tony
say last season? Here I'll quote him.." Those who want respect, give
respect."
Mohicanlady
Mohicanlady
Danielle Gallo <dga...@research.att.com> wrote in message
news:GA3J5...@research.att.com...
> "Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:98j19g$5bkc$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> > It's still *Meadow's* dorm room, not Carmela's....even if they are
paying
> > for it. I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her*
> wishes
> > not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
>
> Um, hello?! Meadow would not even HAVE that dorm room if it weren't for
> parents. She never worked a day in her life, and if M&D stopped paying
> tuition/board, I doubt Princess Bing could fend for herself!
Who's fault is that? Her parents *wanted* that kind of life for her. And I
seriously doubt that Meadow wouldn't be able to fend for herself. She's a
survivor.
Mohicanlady
Aerion
with her daughter alone, he should have respected the request of
Meadow's parent. His statement that he would only leave if Meadow
wished him to leave was not only disrespectful to Carmella as Meadow's
mother, but an obvious line to get him points with Meadow for
improving his success in getting into Meadow's pants (whether he has
or hasn't it improves his situation). I may be old, but I'm a guy and
I know of these tactics. Unfortunately, it shows a lack of character.
His other comment about punching Tony really pissed me off. What a
bunch of BS bravado. And Meadow. What a bunch of you-know-what. Her
language with her mother was so childish and was meant more for the
benefit of Noah showing him how "cool" she was. Meadow's character is
obviously using Noah to try and hurt her father; growing up around him
she would have known his prejudices.
Carmella's take on Tony's attitude, the why and from where it was
coming from was accurate IMHO in the context of this fictitious mob
family. Being half Japanese and half Welsh, I grew up in a small
Northern Californian town in the 60's and 70's and saw both racism
and prejudice directed towards me. It seems to me that Tony's
character is simply a dumb prejudicial SOB; he may change.
So far this season is great. The characters are quite complex. The
scripts are marvelous. I really like the Noah character in the sense
that although Tony's dislike for him is based on prejudice, Noah is
plain and simple a jerk. Speaking of jerks, this ep could have been
called Welcome to Jerkdom; with Christopher and Janice bringing up the
rear.
"Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:98j19g$5bkc$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
Userb3
>I agree. I thought that was very disrespectful towards Carmela. I was
>actually surprised that after he said that Carmela didnt curse him out
>as well.
She's trying hard to take the high road, but Noah and Meadow aren't
making it easy.
Mohicanlady
chaz man <chuckv...@msn.com> wrote in message news:3aad0...@news.provide.net...
I think you are in the minority on this one. Carm was never disrespectful towards Noah, Tony was. The kid showed no respect towards Carm, therefore, does not deserve getting any in return.
Wrong. He knows dam well how Carmella feels about him. What did she say in the dorm room? She's only thinking about their future and how hard it might be living as a interracial couple? That's a cop out. Along time ago..during the early 1900's Italians were were not considered white people, did you know that? I wonder how many WASP parents kept their children "out of harm's way" from all of us wops. Same scenario.Mohicanlady
Liam Devlin
No, sorry, I think he behaved badly in this respect and he would
certainly expect Meadow (and the other Columbia students) to treat his
parents with more respect. Carmela, even Tony, too, deserve respect in a
social setting simply because they're Meadow's parents.
If it becomes necessary, Noah will have to punch Tony's lights out in
private (right after he has a warm Fanta, which I hope he enjoys very
much <g>).
LiamD
Afterburner
>Wrong. He knows dam well how Carmella feels about him. What did she
>say in the dorm room? She's only thinking about their future and how
>hard it might be living as a interracial couple? That's a cop out.
She wasn't saying it would be hard in the future living as an
interracial couple. She was saying "you come from an interracial
family, so this can't be the first time you've experienced racism from
someone who's a racist just because they were raised in a particular
time and place."
AB
brewmaster
COMPLETELY out of line by not respecting Carmella and leaving the room when
asked. If a friend of one of my children (18 years old or not) did
something like that I would completely blow my stack.
I think when Tony finds out how the kid acted to Carm the proverbial shit
will hit the fan. Remember "You'll drive her right into his arms." "Not if
I rip those arms off first." I think that Noah may put himself in the
position where that may happen...
"Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
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Mohicanlady
Aerion <ple...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:9O8r6.34190$jg1.7...@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com...
>
> So far this season is great. The characters are quite complex. The
> scripts are marvelous. I really like the Noah character in the sense
> that although Tony's dislike for him is based on prejudice, Noah is
> plain and simple a jerk.
I don't know that yet. His behavior to date is basely solely on his
defensive statements made while Tony or Carmella are in the room or being
discussed. Maybe he *is* a jerk, however, I won't know that until I see
them in other social settings discussing other things. Hopefully they will
show that.
Mohicanlady
lfe...@airmail.net
so they are reaping what they have sowed. Then again again, Noah is not
their child and Carmella had little to nothing to do with Tony's
prejudiced remarks. Hence, Noah should have shown her some respect. He
was acting like a typical holier-than-thou superior liberal brat.
-L
Userb3
>> Meadow's dorm room paid for by Carmella and Tony. Hell, she wouldn't
>> have gotten in without Carmella's efforts to wrangle recommendations
>> and favors.
>
>Oh, so then by your logic, Meadow should be a nice little white princess and
>listen to ma and pop and not date a negro or she might lose dorm privileges.
Yeah. That's exactly what I wrote.
By my logic, Meadow should show some respect for her parents, and
recognize that she's living in the lap of luxury because of them. By my
logic, Meadow's smart enough to know Tony's prejudices and avoid
antagonizing him. By my logic, if she was really interested in Noah as
a friend or anything else, she'd be working on getting her parents to
be a little more tolerant instead of rubbing their noses in a boyfriend
she knows they can't stand.
And, by my logic, (speaking from personal experience here) if Noah
wants his relationship with Meadow to go anywhere, he'll do it by
showing her parents some respect, impressing them with his character,
and charming Carmella off her feet. The only thing he'll do by
antagonizing the parents is cause problems between Meadow and her
family.
>> What does Mississippi 1956 have to do with Noah's behavior? Noah has a
>> legitimate beef with Tony, but being a self-rightous ass to Carmella
>> just shows him to be a spoiled brat. You suppose Martin Luther King
>> would have talked to the Sopranos the way Noah did (which just
>> confirmed the stereotype for them), or would he have handled the
>> situation with some dignity?
>
>OMG....Martin Luther King and Noah in the same sentence. Let me
>guess...you're white..
Depends on how you define white. I can't join most country clubs, the
KKK, or the Mafia, and many of my neighbors are convinced that my
people killed their God.
>Let's get realistic here. Go back and rewatch the
>episode...Noah was a perfect gentlemen until Tony made it perfectly clear
>that he didn't want him near Meadow because he was half black.
Who's defending Tony? We're talking about Noah's behavior towards
Carmella. She hasn't said an untoward word to Noah. For that matter,
though, would it have killed Noah to say something other than #uck you!
when Tony confronted him? Noah's not smart enough to try to discuss the
matter a little bit, keep open a line of dialogue? He's going to
immediately write off Meadow's entire family?
Now who's showing prejudice?
>Maybe that
>is why Noah's behavior is not "how a good black should act".
I'm starting to think you're carrying some serious prejudice of your
own.
> What did Tony
>say last season? Here I'll quote him.." Those who want respect, give
>respect."
Some advice Noah would be well advised to take.
I'm wagering that Noah's parents aren't going to be all that thrilled
that their precious little prince is dating a Mafia Princess. Meadow
may be in for a dose of reality. Her power and privilege comes with a
price tag.
Aerion
purple. It's about character. Doing what's right even if it hurts.
Respecting parents doesn't meant you agree with them on everything.
Respect is to listen to what they have to say without interrupting
them and throwing in expletives. Giving common courtesy even if you
don't agree with them. It isn't disrespectful for Meadow to date Noah.
What is disrespectful is bringing him to her father's home knowing how
Tony is. Shoving something down a person's throat isn't the best way
to change their viewpoint. A softer approach works wonders.
Andre Mitchell
> Adults? Hell yeah. Could Noah be drafted at 18 years and die for his
> country? Then he is an adult.
Adults with training wheels maybe, since neither of them paid for anything
even down to the deodorant on their skin.
>
> It's still *Meadow's* dorm room, not Carmela's....even if they are paying
> for it. I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her*
wishes
> not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
> >
> > > What allegiance does he owe Carmela?
> >
> > Allegiance? How about to the mother of the girls he's involved with?
> > How about simple respect for an adult? How about common decency?
>
> Common decency and respect? For who? I'd be damned if I am going to give
> respect for a man and woman who hates the color of my skin and hates the
> fact that I am with their daughter? Would you, I doubt it?
And he knows this how? After a long conversation with Carmella during
tennis lessons? He is assuming that Carmella feels the same for him that
Tony does, if he assumes that, then he should assume that Meadow feels that
way also. Unless Carmella says something to him, he has no right to
disrespect her like that. Meadow, and Noah were wrong for that. I tell you
what I would have done, I would have said "Meadow, I'll be outside if you
need me, excuse me Mrs. Soprano". Family is one thing, classemates are
something else. I bet he wouldn't have been so tough had Tony asked him to
excuse himself...even with his self proclaimed boxing skills.
> If they were in Carmela's house, I would agree with that statement. But
> since they are in Meadow's dorm, I disagree. Meadow could have her mom
> booted out of there if she wanted to.
Actually, Carmela could have Meadow booted out of there, not the reverse.
No college would ever boot the person picking up the check.
>
> What decade are you people living in...this isn't Mississippi circa
> 1956...this is NYC 2001. Sheesh......
What world do you live in? colleges don't serve as mediators between
mothers and daughters. Even if Noah was Meadow's roommate, out of respect,
he should have excused himself. The conversation was a private one, that's
what mattered. Meadow should smarten up quick or else she'll end up with
Janice as the only one to turn to and a few dead "friends". Only an
obnoxious idiot would act like that after knowing the ties of Meadow's
family. They made Noah look like an idiot with this episode, I hope they
redeem him. I hope he at least has some sense, and maybe cuts a deal for
himself in order to leave Meadow alone. Maybe a sit down with Hesh.
>
> Mohicanlady
>
>
Kurt Ridder
Mohicanlady wrote:
> OMG....Martin Luther King and Noah in the same sentence. Let me
> guess...you're white.. Let's get realistic here. Go back and rewatch the
> episode...Noah was a perfect gentlemen until Tony made it perfectly clear
> that he didn't want him near Meadow because he was half black. Maybe
that
> is why Noah's behavior is not "how a good black should act". What did
Tony
> say last season? Here I'll quote him.." Those who want respect, give
> respect."
You're so far off base here it's comical. Read what you wrote above: "Those
who want respect, give respect." Carm was very polite and respectful of
Noah. Noah was a snotty a**hole to Carmella. Regardless of how Tony
treated Noah, Noah had no business being disrespectful to Carmella until she
gave him reason to be, which she did not (not even *after* he was rude to
her). Not to mention the concept of respecting your elders.
It's obvious from your posts in this ongoing thread that you don't have a
firm grasp on manners and respect, but that alone wouldn't give anyone the
right to treat one of your family members with disrespect simply because
*you're* clueless.
Kurt Ridder
Andre Mitchell
wanted to bone Tony's daughter. He should have said, we are just
classmates, and the problem is solved. You don't tell someone's father
(regardless of race) that you are working on dating his daughter. "Hi, my
name is Noah, and I can't wait to hook up with your little girl, and your
name is?"
"Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:98j51h$2gr6$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Mohicanlady
>
> Who's defending Tony? We're talking about Noah's behavior towards
> Carmella. She hasn't said an untoward word to Noah.
She doesn't have to say anything, it's pretty apparent.
>For that matter, though, would it have killed Noah to say something other
than #uck you!
No, it was perfect.
>Noah's not smart enough to try to discuss the
> matter a little bit, keep open a line of dialogue? He's going to
> immediately write off Meadow's entire family?
Discuss what? He's assuming that Carmela feels the same way and his
instincts are right.
> I'm starting to think you're carrying some serious prejudice of your
> own.
LOL
> I'm wagering that Noah's parents aren't going to be all that thrilled
> that their precious little prince is dating a Mafia Princess.
Well I agree with you on that anyway.
Mohicanlady
Mohicanlady
Kurt Ridder <kri...@mindspringREMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:3aad255a$0$65275$38c9...@news1.twtelecom.net...
>
> Mohicanlady wrote:
>
> > OMG....Martin Luther King and Noah in the same sentence. Let me
> > guess...you're white.. Let's get realistic here. Go back and rewatch
the
> > episode...Noah was a perfect gentlemen until Tony made it perfectly
clear
> > that he didn't want him near Meadow because he was half black. Maybe
> that
> > is why Noah's behavior is not "how a good black should act". What did
> Tony
> > say last season? Here I'll quote him.." Those who want respect, give
> > respect."
>
>
> You're so far off base here it's comical. Read what you wrote above:
"Those
> who want respect, give respect." Carm was very polite and respectful of
> Noah. Noah was a snotty a**hole to Carmella.
An snotty a**hole? Oh boy...
Regardless of how Tony
> treated Noah, Noah had no business being disrespectful to Carmella until
she
> gave him reason to be, which she did not (not even *after* he was rude to
> her). Not to mention the concept of respecting your elders.
No, Chase and Co. wrote the scenes perfectly. Get a grip man, it's a TV
show.
> It's obvious from your posts in this ongoing thread that you don't have a
> firm grasp on manners and respect.
Wrong. If someone respects me and has good manners, I will do the same.
but that alone wouldn't give anyone the
> right to treat one of your family members with disrespect simply because
> *you're* clueless.
huh?
Mohicanlady
Afterburner
>I don't know that yet. His behavior to date is basely solely on his
>defensive statements made while Tony or Carmella are in the room or being
>discussed.
As I pointed out earlier (and which no one has seen to comment
on):
There are many people in the group who think that Noah was a
complete git even before Tony took him aside and called him
"buckwheat."
The easy over-familiarity with Tony at their first meeting and
the "I'm such a brainy art fuck" dialogue he dropped on Tony after
Meadow went upstairs have suggested to many people that Noah is a
pretentious goober.
AB
MindiBrad
>Date: 3/12/01 2:35 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <6y9r6.2182$sc6....@news3.atl>
>
>
>"Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:98j19g$5bkc$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> Adults? Hell yeah. Could Noah be drafted at 18 years and die for his
>> country? Then he is an adult.
>
>Adults with training wheels maybe, since neither of them paid for anything
>even down to the deodorant on their skin.
>
which is the funniest thing....Meadow wants to assert her "adulthood" and
independence, yet she stormed around the house last week demanding to know if
her mom had finished her laundry...
Mindi
Mohicanlady
Afterburner <abu...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:5b9qatkfa7di245ur...@4ax.com...
I don't think its enough to warrant all the outrage here.
Mohicanlady
Danielle Gallo
> independence, yet she stormed around the house last week demanding to know
if
> her mom had finished her laundry...
and makes her mom come out to nyc to give her the biking shorts/helmet and
food!!
danielle
Mohicanlady
Andre Mitchell <andr...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:6y9r6.2182$sc6....@news3.atl...
> Actually, Carmela could have Meadow booted out of there, not the reverse.
> No college would ever boot the person picking up the check.
That would depend on how ugly the situation gets. If Meadow wanted Carm to
leave but she refused, security would come, that's for sure. If Carm caused
a scene, which would be highly unlikely, she would be asked to leave.
Family counseling would be advised. Of course, if you're suggesting that
Carmela stops paying the tab, and Meadow gets turned out, well..that's
different.
> What world do you live in? colleges don't serve as mediators between
> mothers and daughters. Even if Noah was Meadow's roommate, out of
respect,
> he should have excused himself. The conversation was a private one,
that's
> what mattered.
Then it was up to Meadow to ask Noah to leave.
Mohicanlady
Mohicanlady
*makes* her mom? Oh yeah, I forgot, the word "No" isn't in Carmela's
vocabulary.
Mohicanlady
Torris
<Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>Pharlap <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
>news:98isch$2ic0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>> When Carm wanted to talk to Meadow alone, she politely asked if Noah would
>> excuse himself. I though that he showed disrespect to a mother asking to
>> speak to her daughter alone by Noah saying "I will leave if Meadow wants
>me
>> to leave".
>
>I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow may
>have wanted him to stay. What allegiance does he owe Carmela?
What about common courtesy? Is he that much of a self important person
that he can't realize that antagonzing both parents isn't in his self
interest? Esp. when the mother came bearing gifts and wasn't giving
Princessa Bing the cold shoulder. I think Meadow thinks she is the one
wielding control in this relationship vis a vis her parents. That's a
big gamble
Torris
"Rehab is for quitters"
Torris
>
>Userb3 <use...@starband.net> wrote in message
>news:hfreofgneonaqarg...@news.alt.net...
>
>> Mohicanlady wrote
>>
>> >I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow
>may
>> >have wanted him to stay.
>>
>> "technically adults"? While they may be old enough to vote, they're a
>> couple of kids who still live in the lap of luxury due entirely to the
>> generosity of their parents.
>>
>> Sheesh - adults my ass.
>
>Adults? Hell yeah. Could Noah be drafted at 18 years and die for his
>country? Then he is an adult.
>
I'm sure he'd be a Fortunate Son and his daddy would *buy* him a
deferrment. People like him aren't the ones who die for this country.
>It's still *Meadow's* dorm room, not Carmela's....even if they are paying
>for it. I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her* wishes
>not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
Wow, "controlling Carmela". Maybe in the past, but I think she was
really trying to be a mediator here both of them for her efforts.
>Common decency and respect? For who? I'd be damned if I am going to give
>respect for a man and woman who hates the color of my skin and hates the
>fact that I am with their daughter? Would you, I doubt it?
>
Carmela has stated no such hatred. I'm sure that is seen by the
conniving Meadow as having some underlying subterfuge but if Carmela
hated the kid, she would have dropped off the package and huffed out
of there in a flourish. This little tantrum in stereo by Romeoberg and
Juliet will wind up pushing Carmela closer to Tony's view of full
frontal attack against them being together
Userb3
>which is the funniest thing....Meadow wants to assert her "adulthood" and
>independence, yet she stormed around the house last week demanding to know if
>her mom had finished her laundry...
Typical. We have one at home who does the same thing. Insists we treat
him like a baby in the same breath that he asks us to microwave
something for him and give him gas money.
Torris
<Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Who's fault is that? Her parents *wanted* that kind of life for her. And I
>seriously doubt that Meadow wouldn't be able to fend for herself. She's a
>survivor.
>
>Mohicanlady
HOw is meadow a survivor when she's never suffered a day in her life?
When I was grounded it meant hard labor around the house and a 100
foot leash. With Meadow she had her charge card taken away for a week.
And even then, got money for incidentals like "gas". Oh the humanity!
:-) I'll save my sympathy for people who didn't have a third world
maid around to wipe their ass
Userb3
> There are many people in the group who think that Noah was a
>complete git even before Tony took him aside and called him
>"buckwheat."
>
> The easy over-familiarity with Tony at their first meeting and
>the "I'm such a brainy art fuck" dialogue he dropped on Tony after
>Meadow went upstairs have suggested to many people that Noah is a
>pretentious goober.
I'll grant you he was a pretentious goober, although before Tony's
talk, I was willing to chalk that up to youthful enthusiasm for his
studies and an idealistic world view.
Torris
<use...@starband.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:45:51 -0500, Mohicanlady wrote:
>
>>> Meadow's dorm room paid for by Carmella and Tony. Hell, she wouldn't
>>> have gotten in without Carmella's efforts to wrangle recommendations
>>> and favors.
>>
>>Oh, so then by your logic, Meadow should be a nice little white princess and
>>listen to ma and pop and not date a negro or she might lose dorm privileges.
>
>Yeah. That's exactly what I wrote.
>
>By my logic, Meadow should show some respect for her parents, and
>recognize that she's living in the lap of luxury because of them. By my
>logic, Meadow's smart enough to know Tony's prejudices and avoid
>antagonizing him.
What I despise about the little twat is the way she brings up Tony's
involvement in the mob as a sword to use against her mother's
complicity in that illegal enterprise, when Meadow herself lives the
high life b/c of that same nefarious enterprise. That she not only
derives her tuition from stealing and intimidation (not to mention her
mother's shakedown of stalwarts for letters of recommend!) but several
people she knows within her sanctum have dissappeared recently: PUssy,
Richie, Brendan. The fucking gall of it. Morals of convenience indeed!
IF she's so ashamed of Tony's black filthy lucre why not sayshe'll pay
for her own schooling. Yeah right. It's easier to just throw hissy
fits for leverage.
By my logic, if she was really interested in Noah as
>a friend or anything else, she'd be working on getting her parents to
>be a little more tolerant instead of rubbing their noses in a boyfriend
>she knows they can't stand.
>
>And, by my logic, (speaking from personal experience here) if Noah
>wants his relationship with Meadow to go anywhere, he'll do it by
>showing her parents some respect, impressing them with his character,
>and charming Carmella off her feet.
Fucking A. It doesn't take a nobel laureate to figure out the key to
being accepted by the father is to curry favor with the mother. He
fucked up big time on three occassions in the span of 5 minutes.
Idealist little shit is too smart for his own good.
Torris
<Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>Userb3 <use...@starband.net> wrote in message
>news:hfreofgneonaqarg.ga3jy0f.pminews
>>
>> Who's defending Tony? We're talking about Noah's behavior towards
>> Carmella. She hasn't said an untoward word to Noah.
>
>She doesn't have to say anything, it's pretty apparent.
>
>>For that matter, though, would it have killed Noah to say something other
>than #uck you!
>
>No, it was perfect.
>
>>Noah's not smart enough to try to discuss the
>> matter a little bit, keep open a line of dialogue? He's going to
>> immediately write off Meadow's entire family?
>
>Discuss what? He's assuming that Carmela feels the same way and his
>instincts are right.
You knowwhat they say about assuming right? And I disagree that it's
pretty apparent that Carmela doesn't like the kid. She acknowledged
him with politeness when entering Meadow's room
Userb3
>
>Userb3 <use...@starband.net> wrote in message
>news:hfreofgneonaqarg.ga3jy0f.pminews
>>
>> Who's defending Tony? We're talking about Noah's behavior towards
>> Carmella. She hasn't said an untoward word to Noah.
>
>She doesn't have to say anything, it's pretty apparent.
What, Noah has ESP?
>>For that matter, though, would it have killed Noah to say something other
>than #uck you!
>
>No, it was perfect.
I can see you have a promising career in diplomacy. You may discover,
however, when you've gotten old enough to have done business with
people you disagree with or don't like, that #uck you seldom achieves a
desireable result. There are easily 1000 things Noah could have said
that would have been more appropriate and likely to get a positive
result.
>>Noah's not smart enough to try to discuss the
>> matter a little bit, keep open a line of dialogue? He's going to
>> immediately write off Meadow's entire family?
>
>Discuss what? He's assuming that Carmela feels the same way and his
>instincts are right.
Assuming based on what? Do tell. I got the idea that Carmella wasn't
nearly so bothered by the relationship as Tony was. She was far more
likely to monitor the situation and see how things were working out.
And be aware that every parent who worries about a child in a mixed
marriage isn't necessarily a racist. There are shades of grey involved,
and someone as smart as Noah supposedly is would know that. You suppose
he's welcomed with open arms at every synagogue he visits? Suppose all
his aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents get along without a hint
of friction or prejudice? Suppose that his parents never had to deal
with old friends or family who questioned the wisdom of their romance?
Patrick Denny
> spoiled brats.
They're also fictional characters...you are aware of that, right?
Hoover1952
raise your kid to talk like Noah does to an adult? If you see nothing wrong
with it, you're nuts.
>
>> Mohicanlady wrote
>>
>> >I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow
>may
>> >have wanted him to stay.
>>
>> "technically adults"? While they may be old enough to vote, they're a
>> couple of kids who still live in the lap of luxury due entirely to the
>> generosity of their parents.
>>
>> Sheesh - adults my ass.
>
>Adults? Hell yeah. Could Noah be drafted at 18 years and die for his
>country? Then he is an adult.
>
>for it. I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her* wishes
>not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
>>
>>
>> How about simple respect for an adult? How about common decency?
>
>respect for a man and woman who hates the color of my skin and hates the
>fact that I am with their daughter? Would you, I doubt it?
>
>> >since he realized that conversation was most likely going to be about
>him.
>>
>> This is relevant how? You suppose the casual boyfriend/girlfriend bond
>> trumps the mother/daughter bond? A mother is entitled to have a private
>> conversation with her daughter.
>
>If they were in Carmela's house, I would agree with that statement. But
>since they are in Meadow's dorm, I disagree. Meadow could have her mom
>booted out of there if she wanted to.
>
>1956...this is NYC 2001. Sheesh......
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hoover1952
>> "Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>> news:98j19g$5bkc$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>paying
>> > for it. I think Meadow is hot for the fact that Noah respects *her*
>> wishes
>> > not dear old dad and controlling Carmela.
>>
>her one
>> parents. She never worked a day in her life, and if M&D stopped paying
>> tuition/board, I doubt Princess Bing could fend for herself!
Mohicanlady
Hoover1952 <hoove...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010312172752...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> Mohican Lady, your views are very interesting, and in the minority. Would
you
> raise your kid to talk like Noah does to an adult? If you see nothing
wrong
> with it, you're nuts.
That would depend on how the adult treated my child. If the adult treated
my child with dignity and respect, then I would be outraged if they sounded
like Noah. However, this wasn't the case here.
Mohicanlady
Afterburner
>I don't think its enough to warrant all the outrage here.
But it certainly undermines the view that Noah is being a jerk only
because of Tony's racism.
AB
crack.org
You should raise your kids to be respectful to everyone
at all times under all circumstances. The same thing
applies to adults.
Never let your adversaries know what you are thinking.
It's entirely possible to view this last episode in terms
of different approaches to education. Guidence and direction
come from the older and wiser heads who teach by example.
Tony learned everything he knows from his Mom and Dad
Were they really such bad examples? We have to judge
by the results. Its a very mixed bag.
His dad taught him that a man does what he has to so.
Livia taught him that those things that don't kill us
make us stronger.
Meadow goes to college to be instructed
Cris has been apprenticed to his trade since childhood
only now that he has earned his button will he really
be allowed to [l]earn.
Adrianna and AJ will be coached
In the case of the controversy between Lana and Janice
we have a situation where somebody is begging to be
taught a lesson.
In Noah's case we have a hard case. There is more than one school
of thought about how to procede to wise up a hard case. You can
hurt him physically, but that just makes him a marter, not smarter.
On the other hand you can direct things so they don't GO his way,
surounding him with distractions, manipulating him by offering
temptations and choices that take him away from where his
attention should be focused.
>Mohicanlady,
regards,
lawless
Atalanta Pendragonne
babbled about Re: Noah's Disrespect of Carmella:
>"Andre Mitchell" <andr...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>Unless Carmella says something to him, he has no right to
>>disrespect her like that. Meadow, and Noah were wrong for that. I tell you
>>what I would have done, I would have said "Meadow, I'll be outside if you
>>need me, excuse me Mrs. Soprano". Family is one thing, classemates are
>>something else. I bet he wouldn't have been so tough had Tony asked him to
>>excuse himself...even with his self proclaimed boxing skills.
>
>What Noah said might have been suitable if he and Meadow were married,
>but to expect a girl to be more loyal to a college boyfriend than her
>parents is not having the girl's best interests at heart.
>
>Never try to split a woman from her family, but be there if she needs
>your loyalty when her family's is wanting.
EXACTLY! He put Meadow on the spot, and seems to be trying to drive a
wedge between Meadow and her family. This is *not* someting a good guy
does, it is a major warning signal that it's time to Ditch The Jerk.
And being rude to Carmela like that, in addition to being *way* out of
line, could be a taste of what Meadow is in for in the future if she
sticks around with this weasel. Does he talk to his own mother like
that?
A shame, though. He's cute, and his background is just the thing to
drive Tony nuts.
Atalanta Pendragonne
http://www.BmeWorld.com/atalanta/ - Snake's Slash Pit (Adults Only!)
http://members.fortunecity.com/atalantapendragonne - The Amazing Shrinking Atalanta
TRUE! Nervous, very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad?
Frank Kennedy (CapoFrank)
his childhood memories was much like the cookie Proust ate that
spurred a flood of memories that were the basis for the multi-volume
series, Rememberances of Things Past.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcel Proust: A short literary biography:
http://gateway.library.uiuc.edu/kolbp/Proust.htm
The Marcel Proust Support Group http://www.proust.com/proustgr.html
The Kolb-Proust Archive for Research, a project of the Library of the
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. The project is devoted to
the study of the French author Marcel Proust and his time.
http://gateway.library.uiuc.edu/kolbp/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcel Proust was born to bourgeois parents living in Paris. His
father was a doctor and his mother came from a rich and cultured
Jewish family. Beginning in his childhood and continuing throughout
his life, Proust suffered from chronic asthma attacks.
His literary talent became evident during his high school (lycée)
years. He began to frequent salons such as that of Mme Arman, a friend
of Anatole France. Under the patronage of the latter, Proust published
in 1896 his first book, Les Plaisirs et les Jours, a collection of
short stories, essays and poems. It was not very successful.
Proust had begun in autumn 1895 a novel which he later abandoned in
autumn 1899 and never finished. It was finally published in 1952 as
Jean Santeuil.
After this second setback, Proust devoted several years to translating
and annotating the works of the English art historian John Ruskin. He
published a number of articles on Ruskin, as well as two translations:
La Bible d'Amiens in 1904 and Sésame et les Lys in 1906. The prefaces
to these early works anticipate Proust's subsequent stylistic and
esthetic development. "Sur la lecture", the preface to Sésame,
contains themes which recur in Du Côté de chez Swann.
Overcome by the death of his mother in September 1905, Proust set
aside his literary pursuits for a few months.
In February of 1907 he published in Le Figaro an article entitled
"Sentiments filiaux d'un parricide", in which he attempted to analyze
two elements which would be fundamental to his future psychological
approach to literature: memory and guilt. Other articles which
appeared during the period 1907-1908 are considered to be preliminary
to his novel, into which they were later incorporated.
Early in 1908 Proust wrote for Le Figaro a series of pastiches in
which he imitated the style of Balzac, Michelet, Flaubert,
Sainte-Beuve and other prose writers of the nineteenth century.
Basic references for
Proust studies
During this time he began his novel, although he fully intended to
continue to write essays of literary, artistic and sociological
criticism. One of these was supposed to be devoted to Sainte-Beuve.
Gradually, however, all of his planned projects became part of a
single larger work. During the summer of 1909 Proust developed the
essay entitled "Contre Sainte-Beuve" into a novel which he would
continue to write for the rest of his life. In May of 1913 he adopted
for this novel the title À la recherche du temps perdu.
The first part, Du Côté de chez Swann, was published in November 1913.
War delayed À l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs until June 1919, but
it won the Prix Goncourt in December of that year. For the last three
years of his life Proust never stopped working on the novel, and it
was during these years that three more volumes appeared: Le côté de
Guermantes I (October 1920), Le côté de Guermantes II - Sodome et
Gomorrhe I (May 1921), Sodome et Gomorrhe II (April 1922).
Proust died of pneumonia on November 18, 1922. The remaining volumes
of his novel, which he had finished but not completely revised, were
published by his brother Robert, with the help of Jacques Rivière and
Jean Paulhan, directors of La Nouvelle Revue Française. These volumes
were La Prisonnière (1923), Albertine disparue (1925) and Le Temps
retrouvé (1927).
In his own lifetime the merit of Proust's novel was debated by those
who perceived its brilliance and those who claimed it was unreadable.
Today it is recognized as one of the major literary works of French
expression.
--V. Greene
---------------------------------------------------------------
CapoFrank, one of the Capos/Moderators of The-Sopranos list
on Yahoogroups at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-sopranos
capo...@home.com, ID at http://profiles.yahoo.com/capofrank
fk...@home.com,Frank Kennedy,203 Lark Lane, Euless, TX, 76039
I am: http://members.home.com/fkenn, http://www.dishdata.com
---------------------------------------------------------------
Liam Devlin
>
> nyan...@aol.com (Nicole) wrote:
>
> > When did Carm say she disapproved of Noah? When did she say ANYTHING remotely
> >racist about him? He was behaving like a snotty little brat and I wanted to
> >smack him upside the head.
>
> It was clear that she disapproved when she chastised Tony for using
> tactics that would drive Meadow to Noah. Carm said that she would try
> to talk to Meadow.
>
> No interpretation but that Carm disapproves of the relationship, but
> disagrees as to how to handle it.
But she hasn't said anything to Noah, nor has she been anything but
polite toward him. Noah's been the shithead so far (we all knew what
Tony's reaction was going to be, that was a given, not saying it's good,
just a given).
LiamD
pat
>
> Pharlap <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
> news:98isch$2ic0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> > When Carm wanted to talk to Meadow alone, she politely asked if Noah
would
> > excuse himself. I though that he showed disrespect to a mother asking
to
> > speak to her daughter alone by Noah saying "I will leave if Meadow wants
> me
> > to leave".
>
may
> since he realized that conversation was most likely going to be about him.
> relationship...for whatever reason Chase added it.
>
> Mohicanlady
>
>
>
Liam Devlin
> >
> > Who's defending Tony? We're talking about Noah's behavior towards
> > Carmella. She hasn't said an untoward word to Noah.
>
> She doesn't have to say anything, it's pretty apparent.
>
> than #uck you!
>
> No, it was perfect.
>
> > matter a little bit, keep open a line of dialogue? He's going to
> > immediately write off Meadow's entire family?
>
> instincts are right.
Well, you're off base here, IMHO. Noah's a kid (18 or so) and Tony &
Carmela are Meadow's parents, as such they deserve some respect, much
more than this little snot nose has shown. I can certainly understand
his being angry at Tony, although "F*ck you!" is probably not the best
reply. From what we've *seen*, Carmela has neither said nor done
anything prejudicial toward or about Noah.
Two points: 1. he should be showing more respect, e.g., Silvio's putting
on a suit & going to Livia's funeral when he really wanted to see the
Jets' opener at home;
2. your conclusion that Noah is correct in his suspicions about
Carmela's prejudice only confirms yours, not hers.
These are the things we do to live together as civilized people.
Let's play "what if" for a moment. What if Tony had said some Jewish
nonsense to Noah's father, would he have responded with FU? Doubt it,
he's a lawyer, he would certainly have remained calm and, if he had an
objective in their meeting, would have negotiated toward it.
LiamD
Liam Devlin
>
> When Carmella asked Noah politely to leave so that she could speak
> with her daughter alone, he should have respected the request of
> Meadow's parent. His statement that he would only leave if Meadow
> wished him to leave was not only disrespectful to Carmella as Meadow's
> mother, but an obvious line to get him points with Meadow for
> improving his success in getting into Meadow's pants (whether he has
> or hasn't it improves his situation). I may be old, but I'm a guy and
> I know of these tactics. Unfortunately, it shows a lack of character.
> His other comment about punching Tony really pissed me off. What a
> bunch of BS bravado. And Meadow. What a bunch of you-know-what. Her
> language with her mother was so childish and was meant more for the
> benefit of Noah showing him how "cool" she was. Meadow's character is
> obviously using Noah to try and hurt her father; growing up around him
> she would have known his prejudices.
>
> Carmella's take on Tony's attitude, the why and from where it was
> coming from was accurate IMHO in the context of this fictitious mob
> family. Being half Japanese and half Welsh, I grew up in a small
> Northern Californian town in the 60's and 70's and saw both racism
> and prejudice directed towards me. It seems to me that Tony's
> character is simply a dumb prejudicial SOB; he may change.
>
> So far this season is great. The characters are quite complex. The
> scripts are marvelous. I really like the Noah character in the sense
> that although Tony's dislike for him is based on prejudice, Noah is
> plain and simple a jerk. Speaking of jerks, this ep could have been
> called Welcome to Jerkdom; with Christopher and Janice bringing up the
> rear.
Very well put.
LiamD
Liam Devlin
>
> Andre Mitchell <andr...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:6y9r6.2182$sc6....@news3.atl...
>
> > Actually, Carmela could have Meadow booted out of there, not the reverse.
> > No college would ever boot the person picking up the check.
>
> That would depend on how ugly the situation gets. If Meadow wanted Carm to
> leave but she refused, security would come, that's for sure. If Carm caused
> a scene, which would be highly unlikely, she would be asked to leave.
> Family counseling would be advised. Of course, if you're suggesting that
> Carmela stops paying the tab, and Meadow gets turned out,
Not a good choice of words.
> well..that's different.
>
> > What world do you live in? colleges don't serve as mediators between
> > mothers and daughters. Even if Noah was Meadow's roommate, out of
> respect,
> > he should have excused himself. The conversation was a private one,
> that's
> > what mattered.
>
> Then it was up to Meadow to ask Noah to leave.
Meadow should have backed up her mother, but Noah should have accorded
Carmela the respect she was due when first asked. None of this
grandstanding crap "I'll leave if Meadow asks me", calculated, IMHO, to
drive a wedge between Meadow & Carm.
LiamD
Liam Devlin
>
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:30:46 -0500, "Mohicanlady"
> <Knigh...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >relationship...for whatever reason Chase added it.
>
> time to the young generation (AJ, Meadows, Chris, Richie's nephew),
> examining their naivete (Noah suggesting that he should have punched
> out Tony, Chris' expectation that Paulie would overlook the short
> payment) against the harsher reality of their elders' lives. I'm sure
> we will also have an opportunity to see them learn some useful lessons
> that will determine their adulthood.
Oh, agreed. Just because Noah is an insufferable little snot doesn't
mean his relationship with Meadow isn't interesting and doesn't further
the show.
BTW, I just caught the last half of this week's episode. Meadow didn't
say they were going to Litchfield on the weekend, just that they were
going to someone's weekend house.
LiamD
Liam Devlin
Well, yeah, they're all fictitious, of course.
LiamD
Liam Devlin
>
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:10:48 -0800, "Pharlap" <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET>
> wrote:
>
> >When Carm wanted to talk to Meadow alone, she politely asked if Noah would
> >excuse himself. I though that he showed disrespect to a mother asking to
> >speak to her daughter alone by Noah saying "I will leave if Meadow wants me
> >to leave".
>
> actually surprised that after he said that Carmela didnt curse him out
> as well.
Carm's smart enough to keep quiet in a situation like this.
LiamD
Liam Devlin
>
(snipped)
Are you a lawyer?
LiamD
David Pearce
"Ben L." <ne...@langN0SPAMlotz.com> wrote in message
news:3ac062e5....@news.potlnd1.or.home.com...
> "Userb3" <use...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> >What, Noah has ESP?
>
> Sure, all minorities can detect racism when there has been no overt
> communication. You need to demonstrate the capability before you can
> get the "certified victim" merit badge.
Damn!!! This is funny and true!!!
David
wildearth
<lfe...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:84D0C74653163721.4FF1A2B1...@lp.airnews.net...
> Noah's a brat. So is Meadow. Then again, Carmella and Tony raised her,
> so they are reaping what they have sowed. Then again again, Noah is not
> their child and Carmella had little to nothing to do with Tony's
> prejudiced remarks. Hence, Noah should have shown her some respect. He
> was acting like a typical holier-than-thou superior liberal brat.
>
> -L
Noah and Meadow are NORMAL kids behaving NORMALLY. *That's* the point.
Tony and Carmella are NOT normal--they are criminals. Tony is in therapy
because he's an anti-social killer--his wife turns a blind eye to his
antics--and you think Noah owes them respect?
Puhleeze.
It's a great story line.
WildE
>
> Afterburner wrote:
> >
> > Also Sprach "Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net>:
> >
> > >Wrong. He knows dam well how Carmella feels about him. What did she
> > >say in the dorm room? She's only thinking about their future and how
> > >hard it might be living as a interracial couple? That's a cop out.
> >
> > She wasn't saying it would be hard in the future living as an
> > interracial couple. She was saying "you come from an interracial
> > family, so this can't be the first time you've experienced racism from
> > someone who's a racist just because they were raised in a particular
> > time and place."
> >
> > AB
wildearth
"Liam Devlin" <Lia...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
> Well, you're off base here, IMHO. Noah's a kid (18 or so) and Tony &
> Carmela are Meadow's parents, as such they deserve some respect, much
> more than this little snot nose has shown. I can certainly understand
> his being angry at Tony, although "F*ck you!" is probably not the best
> reply. From what we've *seen*, Carmela has neither said nor done
> anything prejudicial toward or about Noah.
IMO, you're way off base. Tony is a killer--parent or not. By your
reasoning, if Tony gets caught, he shouldn't go to jail because it'd be
disrespecting a parent. Secondly, Noah has every right to conjecture that a
bigot is married to a bigot. It's a reasonable assumption considering the
magnitude of Tony's violent beliefs and actions.
>
> 2. your conclusion that Noah is correct in his suspicions about
> Carmela's prejudice only confirms yours, not hers.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
>
> These are the things we do to live together as civilized people.
Hello? Tony is not a civilized person. He's a killer. As far as we know,
Noah is not a criminal or killer. At 18, he's more civilized than Tony will
ever be. Unless, of course, you disagree with that assessment.
<snip>
WildE
Kathy
> Mohicanlady wrote:
>
> > OMG....Martin Luther King and Noah in the same sentence. Let me
> > guess...you're white.. Let's get realistic here. Go back and rewatch the
> > episode...Noah was a perfect gentlemen until Tony made it perfectly clear
> > that he didn't want him near Meadow because he was half black. Maybe
> that
> > is why Noah's behavior is not "how a good black should act". What did
> Tony
> > say last season? Here I'll quote him.." Those who want respect, give
> > respect."
>
> You're so far off base here it's comical. Read what you wrote above: "Those
> who want respect, give respect." Carm was very polite and respectful of
> Noah. Noah was a snotty a**hole to Carmella. Regardless of how Tony
> treated Noah, Noah had no business being disrespectful to Carmella until she
> gave him reason to be, which she did not (not even *after* he was rude to
> her). Not to mention the concept of respecting your elders.
>
> It's obvious from your posts in this ongoing thread that you don't have a
> firm grasp on manners and respect, but that alone wouldn't give anyone the
> right to treat one of your family members with disrespect simply because
> *you're* clueless.
>
> Kurt Ridder
I am just wondering how much respect a brutal murdering thieving mafioso and
his accepting wife deserve from anyone other than their mob underlings?
Kathy
Kurt Ridder
> I am just wondering how much respect a brutal murdering thieving mafioso
and
> his accepting wife deserve from anyone other than their mob underlings?
You're assuming Noah is aware that Tony is a "brutal murdering thieving
mafioso". If he is aware of it, then maybe he's not disrespectful, but he
would certainly qualify as a supreme idiot. Ya think?
Kurt Ridder
lfe...@airmail.net
>
> <lfe...@airmail.net> wrote in message
> news:84D0C74653163721.4FF1A2B1...@lp.airnews.net...
> > Noah's a brat. So is Meadow. Then again, Carmella and Tony raised her,
> > so they are reaping what they have sowed. Then again again, Noah is not
> > their child and Carmella had little to nothing to do with Tony's
> > prejudiced remarks. Hence, Noah should have shown her some respect. He
> > was acting like a typical holier-than-thou superior liberal brat.
> >
> > -L
>
> Noah and Meadow are NORMAL kids behaving NORMALLY.
Most NORMAL kids I know are not that disrespectful to their parents,
especially in Italian families where they take that commandment very
seriously. ASSHOLE kids act the way Noah does.
> *That's* the point.
> Tony and Carmella are NOT normal--they are criminals. Tony is in therapy
> because he's an anti-social killer--his wife turns a blind eye to his
> antics--and you think Noah owes them respect?
Yes. See that's where the us-->parents, you-->kids thing comes in.
There is a difference between the two and no matter what, a child owes
their parents a basic level of respect. If you disagree with that, I
feel sorry for your parents.
> Puhleeze.
You're welcome.
> It's a great story line.
Agreed. What does that have to do with the fact that Noah is a brat?
We're not saying he shouldn't have been written that way; we're just
saying we dislike the character and his out of line behavior.
-L
Userb3
>I am just wondering how much respect a brutal murdering thieving mafioso and
>his accepting wife deserve from anyone other than their mob underlings?
At least enough to ensure that you aren't the next victim. Maybe enough
to recognize that these are the parents of your girlfriend, and you're
in their house. Hopefully enough to keep your relationship civil and
keep the moral high ground for yourself.
Userb3
During their weekend trek to Noah's parents house, the parents make the
connection between Meadow and the mob headlines from New Jersey. They
tell Noah, and he pees in his pants in fear for what he's done to date,
and drops Meadow like a hot potato. Meadow figures out enough to know
that one way or the other, Tony has stifled the "love of her life", and
friction ensues. Janice, seizing the opportunity to stir up more crap,
comes to Meadow's rescue, and lets Meadow set up house at Livias's when
she's not at school. Tony finds himself once again robbing antacid
trucks because of the women in his life.
How's that?
wildearth
murders deserve more respect than a law abiding citizen--you do.
> Agreed. What does that have to do with the fact that Noah is a brat?
> We're not saying he shouldn't have been written that way; we're just
> saying we dislike the character and his out of line behavior.
The fact that normal teenage behavior when compared to criminal behavior is
perceived as "out of line" by an audience, speaks volumes. This storyline
highlights the tension between normal teenage behavior and criminal
anti-social adult behavior--the consequence of respecting criminals in
youth. Get it?
WildE
wildearth
> No, sorry, I think he behaved badly in this respect and he would
> certainly expect Meadow (and the other Columbia students) to treat his
> parents with more respect. Carmela, even Tony, too, deserve respect in a
> social setting simply because they're Meadow's parents.
That social setting was in a private residence and dorm room; they were not
in public--or with anyone other than family members.
Can't Tony live by his own rules?
WildE
"If you want respect, you've got to give respect."---Tony Soprano.
lfe...@airmail.net
wildearth wrote:
>
> I guess the difference between us, then, is that I don't think criminals or
> murders deserve more respect than a law abiding citizen--you do.
Um, yeah, right, that's exactly what I said.
>
> > Agreed. What does that have to do with the fact that Noah is a brat?
> > We're not saying he shouldn't have been written that way; we're just
> > saying we dislike the character and his out of line behavior.
>
> The fact that normal teenage behavior when compared to criminal behavior is
> perceived as "out of line" by an audience, speaks volumes.
One more time. We do not perceive his behavior as "normal." We
perceive it as out of line and disrespectful. If you regard his
assholierness as normal, once again, I feel sorry for your parents.
> This storyline
> highlights the tension between normal teenage behavior and criminal
> anti-social adult behavior--the consequence of respecting criminals in
> youth. Get it?
Noah does not perceive Carmella as ganster; thus, his disrespect had
nothing to do with that. He's just a brat; period.
Userb3
>That would depend on how the adult treated my child. If the adult treated
>my child with dignity and respect, then I would be outraged if they sounded
>like Noah. However, this wasn't the case here.
What, precisely, did Carmella do or say to Noah that bothered you?
Userb3
>>They're also fictional characters...you are aware of that, right?
>
>Insightful comment of the day, here.
>
>How would we survive without such guidance to maintain the quality of
>discourse?!
No kiddin! Now I can quit callin' the FBI every monday to tell them
that they'd have all the evidence they need if they'd just watch HBO
like I do! Who knew it was just a made up story?
But now, NYPD Blue, that's a true story, right? I am SO upset over all
the things that happen to that poor Sipowicz. Is he related to th
Soprano's maid?
wildearth
<lfe...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:BD1EFDFFE1538589.8435FAB9...@lp.airnews.net...
>
>
> wildearth wrote:
> >
> > I guess the difference between us, then, is that I don't think criminals
or
> > murders deserve more respect than a law abiding citizen--you do.
>
> Um, yeah, right, that's exactly what I said.
Glad to see you agree.
> > The fact that normal teenage behavior when compared to criminal behavior
is
> > perceived as "out of line" by an audience, speaks volumes.
>
> One more time. We do not perceive his behavior as "normal." We
> perceive it as out of line and disrespectful. If you regard his
> assholierness as normal, once again, I feel sorry for your parents.
We? Are you speaking for the blind men like Caitlin?
>
> > This storyline
> > highlights the tension between normal teenage behavior and criminal
> > anti-social adult behavior--the consequence of respecting criminals in
> > youth. Get it?
>
> Noah does not perceive Carmella as ganster; thus, his disrespect had
> nothing to do with that. He's just a brat; period.
Yes. I'm sure you know exactly what Noah perceives.
WildE
.....god I love this show.
wildearth
disdain...you wouldn't have a show to obsess over. Quite a conundrum, eh?
WildE
<lfe...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:BD1EFDFFE1538589.8435FAB9...@lp.airnews.net...
>
>
lfe...@airmail.net
Kathy
Exactly. Most seem to be very accepting of Tony's brutal criminal behavior
(and Carmela's acceptance of it) and blatant racism, but boy, that fresh
disrespectful kid has got to go!! I wonder what THEIR parents have taught
them?
Kathy
Torris
wrote:
>I guess the difference between us, then, is that I don't think criminals or
>murders deserve more respect than a law abiding citizen--you do.
>
>> Agreed. What does that have to do with the fact that Noah is a brat?
>> We're not saying he shouldn't have been written that way; we're just
>> saying we dislike the character and his out of line behavior.
>
>The fact that normal teenage behavior when compared to criminal behavior is
>perceived as "out of line" by an audience, speaks volumes.
I don't know. Cinton bombed Sudan to get the bullshit with Monica off
the front pages, yet most seemed to think that a few dozen innocent
dead Africans is of little consequence. I don't think the same economy
of scale applies between Tony, who honors a code much like a tougher
version of the Kiwanis versus the ingratitude and disrespect of his
spoiled child and her PC poster child boyfriend.
But if what you're looking for is consistency, then that is certainly
there. Meadow has always displayed disrespect towards her parents
This storyline
>highlights the tension between normal teenage behavior and criminal
>anti-social adult behavior--the consequence of respecting criminals in
>youth. Get it?
Yeah and I don't think it's a proper comparison. I don't think Meadow
and the kosher eggplant owe Tony respect b/c he's a cold blooded
murderer/gangster but b/c he's Meadow's father. And how do you
rationalize the egregious disrespect shown by both towards Carmela?
She's not in the mob, she's never killed anyone
Torris
"Rehab is for quitters"
Torris
wrote:
>IMO, you're way off base. Tony is a killer--parent or not. By your
>reasoning, if Tony gets caught, he shouldn't go to jail because it'd be
>disrespecting a parent. Secondly, Noah has every right to conjecture that a
>bigot is married to a bigot.
Why does he have that *right*. He can't claim to be a victim of racial
animosity and get away with practicing it himself. IN this case
assuming outright that Carmela's beliefs about blacks are the same as
Tony's. All Italians hate niggers, ergo none deserve respect or common
courtesy. And when he finally taps that fat ass of Meadow's he'll be
scoring one on behalf of Farrakhan and/or the NAACP. bullshit logic
WildE. The two of these sniveling shits were way out of line in how
they treated Carmela. Leave race and Tony for that matter out of it
Torris
wrote:
>I am just wondering how much respect a brutal murdering thieving mafioso and
>his accepting wife deserve from anyone other than their mob underlings?
>
>Kathy
In this case they're acting and behaving like parents, not mobsters.
Brandy
Brandy
Userb3 wrote:
>
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:30:46 -0500, Mohicanlady wrote:
>
> >
> >Pharlap <OCEA...@PRODIGY.NET> wrote in message
> >news:98isch$2ic0$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> >> When Carm wanted to talk to Meadow alone, she politely asked if Noah would
> >> excuse himself. I though that he showed disrespect to a mother asking to
> >> speak to her daughter alone by Noah saying "I will leave if Meadow wants
> >me
> >> to leave".
> >
> >I liked it. After all, they are both technically adults now and Meadow may
> >have wanted him to stay.
>
> "technically adults"? While they may be old enough to vote, they're a
> couple of kids who still live in the lap of luxury due entirely to the
> generosity of their parents. They don't work, they're not responsible
> for anyone but themselves, they have no real world experience, and
> they'd both be flippin' burgers and living in a dump if they didn't
> have Mom and Dad to pick up the tab, wield some influence, and provide
> clothes, insurance, car, food, tuition, spending money, stereo, books,
> etc etc etc etc.
>
> Sheesh - adults my ass.
>
> > What allegiance does he owe Carmela?
>
> Allegiance? How about to the mother of the girls he's involved with?
> How about simple respect for an adult? How about common decency?
>
> >Especially
> >since he realized that conversation was most likely going to be about him.
>
> This is relevant how? You suppose the casual boyfriend/girlfriend bond
> trumps the mother/daughter bond? A mother is entitled to have a private
> conversation with her daughter. A boyfriend isn't entitled to interfere
> with that.
Mohicanlady
wildearth <wild...@acm.org> wrote in message
news:98lcb4$j4r$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
WildE...I'm not worthy.......Mohicanlady bowing down to WildE....
Finally another voice of reason.
Mohicanlady
>
>
Mohicanlady
>
> >
> WildE
> "If you want respect, you've got to give respect."---Tony Soprano.
Finally, another one who doesn't have blinders on. Thank you.
Mohicanlady
Brandy
"plonk" mean? (I'm serious - I've seen it before but was never sure
what it meant - and I KNOW its not Italian)
Brandy
Mohicanlady
Afterburner <abu...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:t5oqatkl46i770tif...@4ax.com...
> "Mohicanlady" <Knigh...@prodigy.net> sez:
>
> >I don't think its enough to warrant all the outrage here.
>
> But it certainly undermines the view that Noah is being a jerk only
> because of Tony's racism.
We went through this before, didn't we? We haven't seen him outside that
setting yet, have we?
Mohicanlady
hooper
you PLONK someone, it means your newsreader will automatically delete/mark read
posts from anyone or with any keyword(s) you specify.
BTW, PLONK is an acronym which stands for P eople with L ittle O r N o K nowledge.
Brandy wrote:
> Excuse me for getting in the middle of this one - but - what does "plonk" mean?
> (I'm serious - I've seen it before but was never sure what it meant - and I KNOW
> its not Italian)
>
> [SNIP]
Brandy
Brandy
Brandy
Meadow was alone, rewinding the tape. She said she was watching it with
a friend. That's when Noah came back down stairs (hmm - what was he
doing upstairs when there is a bathroom downstairs?) and started putting
his shoes on. The rest is history.
Brandy
"Ben L." wrote:
>
> "Userb3" <use...@starband.net> wrote:
>
> >I'll grant you he was a pretentious goober, although before Tony's
> >talk, I was willing to chalk that up to youthful enthusiasm for his
> >studies and an idealistic world view.
>
> Snuggling on the couch with the daughter of the homeowner, and not
> budging when Dad comes in? Then basically saying he's working on
> hooking up with the princess?
Kenneth Crudup
>PLONK is an acronym which stands for P eople with L ittle O r N o K nowledge.
*sigh*
No, it comes from "the sound a name makes as it's deposited into the killfile".
HTH,
-Kenny, wondering how these things get mutated like that
--
Kenneth R. Crudup Sr. SW Engineer, Scott County Consulting, Washington, D.C.
Home1: PO Box 914 Silver Spring, MD 20910-0914 ke...@panix.com
Home2: 38010 Village Cmn. #217 Fremont, CA 94536-7525 (510) 745-8181
Work: See: "Home2". The hell with slow Bay Area drivers! (510) 745-0101
Kenneth Crudup
"userb3" <use...@my-deja.com> says:
>"The public is invariably surprised to find out that the
>top-earning one percent make 18 percent of the money
>and pay 34 percent of the income taxes."
No surprise here :-(
-Kenny
Brandy
"Ben L." wrote:
> What Noah said might have been suitable if he and Meadow were married,
Even married, he should never come between them. Supportive - yes, but
running interference - never.
> Never try to split a woman from her family, but be there if she needs
> your loyalty when her family's is wanting.
Exactly! Blood runs thicker than water. Your parents will ALWAYS be
your parents. But your spouse may not always be your spouse -
especially considering today's divorce rates.
Brandy
Kenneth Crudup
>(snipped)
In article <3AADD163...@optonline.net>, Lia...@optoffline.not says:
>Are you a lawyer?
The incoherent rambling tip you off? :-)
Brandy
example to the "Children" (yes - they are still children") by not adding
fuel to the fire- so to speak and treating both of them with respect.
BTW - your first name wouldn't be Wreak - would it?
Brandy
Commander Havok wrote:
>
> I agree. I thought that was very disrespectful towards Carmela. I was
> actually surprised that after he said that Carmela didnt curse him out
> as well.
>
> havok
lfe...@airmail.net
-L
crack.org
>
>Lawless wrote:
>>
>(snipped)
>
>Are you a lawyer?
Only in the fear and loathing sense of the word.
Anna mohandis mahri (metaphysical engineer)
>
>LiamD
regards,
lawless
Torris
wrote:
>I wasn't aware that he was "snuggling" on the couch. When T came in,
>Meadow was alone, rewinding the tape. She said she was watching it with
>a friend. That's when Noah came back down stairs (hmm - what was he
>doing upstairs when there is a bathroom downstairs?) and started putting
>his shoes on. The rest is history.
That's correct. He made the comment about Carm's obsession with
lavender
hooper
> In article <3AAEAA40...@msg.com>, hooper <letsgo...@msg.com> says:
>
> >PLONK is an acronym which stands for P eople with L ittle O r N o K nowledge.
>
> *sigh*
>
> No, it comes from "the sound a name makes as it's deposited into the killfile".
That acronym must be a netiquette coincidence.
Kenneth Crudup
>That acronym (PLONK) must be a netiquette coincidence.
Yeah, like there are those who think "spam" is an acronym.
-Kenny
wildearth
where people had to killflile you because of the non-stop right-wing psycho
babble?
Carry on.
<lfe...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:4B0105CAC625708F.8870050C...@lp.airnews.net...
DeeTigress
>excuse himself. I though that he showed disrespect to a mother asking to
>speak to her daughter alone by Noah saying "I will leave if Meadow wants me
>to leave".
>
way he'd be bitch-slapped up and down the block before heading to the nearest
hospital for the surgical removal of my shoe from his ass.
Dee, the mother from Hell