>>>> IT'S SETTLED!!!! GEORGE IS ITALIAN!!!!!! <<<<<
Mish Dilip, PhD.
As if the episode where his father went to Italy wasn't enough, the 4/25/96
episode of Seinfeld resolved all doubt.
George told the Calzone guy that his last name was Costanza, in order to show
the guy he was Italian.
spal...@forest.drew.edu
I think George is half Italian and half jewish.
steff
>
lainer
I think George is just jewish. Is there a way to write the show?
Jen Dawson
>I think George is just jewish. Is there a way to write the show?<
Good luck. The writers are deliberately cagey on this issue and more than
ever I think the whole issue of George's ethnicity is just a complete
put-on. I mean, Alexander and Estelle Harris and Jerry Stiller are all
Jewish, and they couldn't be more stereotypically Jewish in character.
George is the quintessential New York middle-aged Jewish man. I think the
writers dropping all these clues that the Costanzas are Italian is just a
put-on. When the show was created, the network felt the show was "too
Jewish" to succeed in middle America. I think that making George Italian
is just an in-joke with the writers-- obviously George is a New York
Jewish man and no Italian relatives or paella will ever change that.
Jennifer S. Dawson
New York, NY 10011
Alison deNu
mdi...@vogelnet.nu.edu (Mish Dilip, PhD.) wrote:
>
>As if the episode where his father went to Italy wasn't enough, the 4/25/96
>episode of Seinfeld resolved all doubt.
>
>George told the Calzone guy that his last name was Costanza, in order to show
>the guy he was Italian.
>
but what about George's MOTHER? maybe it was a "Bridgit Loves Bernie" marriage in reverse. George
would then be Jewish.
but we all know that George is REALLY Latvian Orthodox.
Monty D. Martin
jend...@aol.com (Jen Dawson) wrote:
I couldn't agree more about the way the writers confuse George's
background. I can just hear them laughing amonst themselves when one
of them suggests, " I know! Let's have George deliver Christmas
presents to his parents". But I'd be careful about calling George the
quintessential 'Ney York middle-aged Jewish man' lest some think you
are refering to his period of unemployment and living back at home,
and his tendency to lie his way through situations.
Monty
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Demonstrating once again that subtle difference between creativity and complex stupidity" -- Dogbert
Kirk Knutson
car...@primenet.com (Monty D. Martin) wrote:
>I couldn't agree more about the way the writers confuse George's
>background. I can just hear them laughing amonst themselves when one
>of them suggests, " I know! Let's have George deliver Christmas
>presents to his parents". But I'd be careful about calling George the
>quintessential 'Ney York middle-aged Jewish man' lest some think you
>are refering to his period of unemployment and living back at home,
>and his tendency to lie his way through situations.
So what exactly are you referring to?
Gary Kline
In article <4m31ca$k...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, car...@primenet.com says...
>
>jend...@aol.com (Jen Dawson) wrote:
>>>I think George is just jewish. Is there a way to write the show?<
>>Good luck. The writers are deliberately cagey on this issue and more than
>>ever I think the whole issue of George's ethnicity is just a complete
>>put-on. I mean, Alexander and Estelle Harris and Jerry Stiller are all
>>Jewish, and they couldn't be more stereotypically Jewish in character.
>>George is the quintessential New York middle-aged Jewish man. I think the
>>writers dropping all these clues that the Costanzas are Italian is just a
>>put-on. When the show was created, the network felt the show was "too
>>Jewish" to succeed in middle America. I think that making George Italian
>>is just an in-joke with the writers-- obviously George is a New York
>>Jewish man and no Italian relatives or paella will ever change that.
>I couldn't agree more about the way the writers confuse George's
>background. I can just hear them laughing amonst themselves when one
>of them suggests, " I know! Let's have George deliver Christmas
>presents to his parents". But I'd be careful about calling George the
>quintessential 'Ney York middle-aged Jewish man' lest some think you
>are refering to his period of unemployment and living back at home,
>and his tendency to lie his way through situations.
>Monty
I couldn't agree with you more. [funny thing that, agreeing]
It's a set-up by the writers to get under the skin of those who nitpick at
sitcoms. But...
I just about peed in my pants when I saw "the network felt the show was 'too
Jewish' to succeed in middle America". Such a quintessential statement,
bound to get nods from stereotype lauders. Heh.
Perhaps one of the most difficult jobs we have doing as human beings is
appropriately categorizing things. There's always that "exception to the
rule", so to speak. Take "Jewish" for example. The word refers to a person
of the Hebrew faith. Note the word "faith", not race. It just so happens
that most people who are Jewish are or descended from the Israelis, a
national identity. So, in the present day, to say someone is Jewish *infers*
that they are of Israeli descent. The reverse is true when referencing an
Israeli, where there's a high chance the person is Jewish too. But this
doesn't work for most other faiths. Take the national identity of "Italian".
Well, most Italians are Catholic. One would tend to assume that this faith
is implied when referring to this national identity. But the OPPOSITE is not
true, seeing as Catholics are all over the world. See why the Jewish
identity can be confusing?
What's my point? Good question. I've forgotten. So there...
Oh yeah. Well, I don't think there's any problem with the acceptance of
Jewish references on TV. There are plenty. So, the writers chose to have
George be Italian. They took writer's license to throw in things that were
funny, even if it implied he was Jewish, rather than Italian Catholic. I'd
say, let's overlook the contradiction (like we've done with Kramer's
conflicts of character), and move on...
George is Italian. We're not sure he's Jewish. It doesn't matter. Case
closed. Eat your chicken matzah ball soup.
Darn... and I wanted this post to be amusing. :P
-Gary K.
Andrea Moro
On 29 Apr 1996 11:30:19 -0400, Jen Dawson (jend...@aol.com) wrote:
>...
>is just an in-joke with the writers-- obviously George is a New York
>Jewish man and no Italian relatives or paella will ever change that.
Remember that paella has nothing to do with Italy.
>Jennifer S. Dawson
>New York, NY 10011
--
..............................................................................
Andrea Moro (elm...@ssc.upenn.edu)
Department of Economics
University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA 19104 (USA)
<a href="http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~elmoro/index.html">Andrea</a>
..............................................................................
Mish Dilip, PhD.
In article <4m2ngr$q...@news.parc.xerox.com> Alison deNu <de...@PARC.XEROX.COM> writes:
>From: Alison deNu <de...@PARC.XEROX.COM>
>Subject: Re: >>>> IT'S SETTLED!!!! GEORGE IS ITALIAN!!!!!! <<<<<
>Date: 29 Apr 1996 15:33:47 GMT
>but what about George's MOTHER? maybe it was a "Bridgit Loves Bernie"
marriage in reverse. George >would then be Jewish.
>but we all know that George is REALLY Latvian Orthodox.
>
Yes, I agree with you. I have posted this theory before- namely, that George's
mother may be Jewish. (at least I think so).
As for your claim that George is Latvian Orthodox, we are all aware of that
episode. Besides the fact that he didn't go through with the conversion, one
may be ethnically Jewish and not necessarily practice the Jewish faith. Thus
when we refer to George being Jewish, these is also an element of ethnicity
and heritage and not a purely religious element to the description.
ljwe...@usa.pipeline.com
In article <4m45kl$j...@symiserver2.symantec.com>, Gary Kline writes:
<snip>
> It just so happens
>that most people who are Jewish are or descended from the Israelis, a
>national identity. So, in the present day, to say someone is Jewish
*infers*
>that they are of Israeli descent. The reverse is true when referencing an
>Israeli, where there's a high chance the person is Jewish too.
*imply* (not "infer," a word frequently used incorrectly) that most Jews
today descend from ancestors in the 48-year-old country of Israel. What
about those older than 48?
<snip>
> seeing as Catholics are all over the world.
> So, the writers chose to have George be Italian. They took writer's
license
Highflag
> The writers are deliberately cagey on this issue and more than
>>ever I think the whole issue of George's ethnicity is just a complete
>>put-on.
I agree, that the writers must find it hysterical that people still
refuse to accept the fact that George is Italian...They send his father
to Italy, and people still cling to the belief that George is
Jewish...They must have said"that wasn't enough," so they have George
come right out and tell the calzone guy that he's Italian, but some
people just can't admit that they were wrong, so they're now coming up
with convoluted theories to allow them to avoid the obvious...
I stated several months ago, and I'll re-state once more, everyone
in New York is Jewish...and Italian...and Polish...and Irish...and
every other etnic group that makes up the "melting pot" that is New
York City...
HF
"I don't have a photograph, but you can have my footprints. They're
upstairs in my socks."
Groucho Marx
Cheryl Jenkins
It was never in any doubt that George's father is of Italian
descent. There have been many references to that fact. However,
that is completely irrelevant to whether or not George is
**Jewish**.
First of all, it's his mother's being Jewish that would determine
whether or not George is Jewish. His father's religion is
irrelevant. And all indicators point to his Mother's being
Jewish, most likely of Eastern European descent. If his father
were non-Jewish, and his mother Jewish, George himseflf would be
Jewish; that might also explain why the family celebrates
Christmas.
Furthermore, George's father, while of Italian ancestry, could
also be Jewish himself. There are Jews in Italy.
After following these posts for some time, it amazes me to think
that people believe that if George is "Italian," that he can not
possibly be Jewish. The two are hardly mutually exclusive.
Michael Josefson
gkl...@symantec.com (Gary Kline) wrote:
>In article <4m31ca$k...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, car...@primenet.com says...
>>
>>jend...@aol.com (Jen Dawson) wrote:
>
>>>>I think George is just jewish. Is there a way to write the show?<
>
>>>ever I think the whole issue of George's ethnicity is just a complete
>>>Jewish, and they couldn't be more stereotypically Jewish in character.
>>>George is the quintessential New York middle-aged Jewish man. I think the
>>>writers dropping all these clues that the Costanzas are Italian is just a
>>>put-on. When the show was created, the network felt the show was "too
>>>is just an in-joke with the writers-- obviously George is a New York
>>>Jewish man and no Italian relatives or paella will ever change that.
>
>>of them suggests, " I know! Let's have George deliver Christmas
>>presents to his parents". But I'd be careful about calling George the
>>quintessential 'Ney York middle-aged Jewish man' lest some think you
>>are refering to his period of unemployment and living back at home,
>>and his tendency to lie his way through situations.
>
>>Monty
>
>I couldn't agree with you more. [funny thing that, agreeing]
>It's a set-up by the writers to get under the skin of those who nitpick at
>sitcoms. But...
>
>I just about peed in my pants when I saw "the network felt the show was 'too
>Jewish' to succeed in middle America". Such a quintessential statement,
>bound to get nods from stereotype lauders. Heh.
>
>Perhaps one of the most difficult jobs we have doing as human beings is
>appropriately categorizing things. There's always that "exception to the
>rule", so to speak. Take "Jewish" for example. The word refers to a person
>national identity. So, in the present day, to say someone is Jewish *infers*
>that they are of Israeli descent. The reverse is true when referencing an
Mish Dilip, PhD.
In article <4mdebs$n...@news-e2b.gnn.com> Che...@gnn.com (Cheryl Jenkins) writes:
>From: Che...@gnn.com (Cheryl Jenkins)
>Subject: Re: >>>> IT'S SETTLED!!!! GEORGE IS ITALIAN!!!!!! <<<<<
>It was never in any doubt that George's father is of Italian
>descent. There have been many references to that fact. However,
>that is completely irrelevant to whether or not George is
>**Jewish**.
No actually, THERE WAS DOUBT regarding the ethnicity/ religion of George's
father. Both seem to be stereotypical Jewish characters, as has been described
in previous postings.
It was only recently- THIS SEASON TO BE EXACT- that it we learned of
his father's Italian roots.
>First of all, it's his mother's being Jewish that would determine
>whether or not George is Jewish. His father's religion is
>irrelevant. And all indicators point to his Mother's being
>Jewish, most likely of Eastern European descent. If his father
>were non-Jewish, and his mother Jewish, George himseflf would be
>Jewish; that might also explain why the family celebrates
>Christmas.
Yes, technically from a religious standpoint, a Jewish mother would make a
person Jewish. But that does not mean that he is actually a practicing Jew, as
I know many people who are half Jewish (on the mother's side) but do not
practice.
Moreover, you are forgetting that being Jewish is not just a religious
question, but also one of ethnicity. The Jewish people are a distinct group
with their own common language, history, culture, etc. Does George take part
in these parts of his supposed Jewishness?
>Furthermore, George's father, while of Italian ancestry, could
>also be Jewish himself. There are Jews in Italy.
Go find a Jew in Italy with the name Costanza. Please. Now, you are engaging
in the absurd. Italy is OVERWHELMINGLY Catholic. Could there be Jews there?
Sure, but there could be Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Shintos, etc there as
well. By your logic, George's father could be Italian and Hindu.
>After following these posts for some time, it amazes me to think
>that people believe that if George is "Italian," that he can not
>possibly be Jewish. The two are hardly mutually exclusive.
In most cases, they ARE mutually exclusive (barring the possibility of mixed
marriage).
When we talk of Italy, we are not talking about a mixed society
such as the United States (where you can be American and Jewish, American and
Christian, or whatever).
Moreover, Italy is not a country where there were EVER
large numbers of Jewish inhabitants; most were in Eastern Europe and
Russia during their diaspora.
Before this season, I thought he was 100% Jewish and it made no difference.
Now, I happen to think he is only half Jewish (i.e. his mother) and it still
makes no difference. I watch it because its a damn funny show. If the writers
feel that they have to make the show "less Jewish" (whatever that means) then
that's too bad. I don't watch TV and take a racial/religious inventory.
But people here are fans and are curious and it is natural for them to ask.
You can't expect them to stop asking these questions.
Michael Josefson
Che...@gnn.com (Cheryl Jenkins) wrote:
>It was never in any doubt that George's father is of Italian
>descent. There have been many references to that fact. However,
>that is completely irrelevant to whether or not George is
>**Jewish**.
>
>
>also be Jewish himself. There are Jews in Italy.
>
>that people believe that if George is "Italian," that he can not
>possibly be Jewish. The two are hardly mutually exclusive.
>
Thank you! One can be an Italian Jew, and I have posted on this topic, and discussed
this with Jews and non-Jews alike who only associate "Jewishness" with the Eastern
European, Ashkenazic archetype prevalent in the United States. However, I think it
unlikely that Frank Costanza is meant to represent an Italian Jew, the writers are
also probably unaware of such a thing, and additionally, very few Italian Jews have
migrated to Queens. The Italian Jews were extremely assimilated in Italian culture
and prominent in Italian cultural ,intellectual,and political life. The
Costanza's are far from behaving like the cultivated Italian Jews I have met!In any
case the allegedly "Jewish" characteristics of Frank and George Costanza, such as
eating kasha( a Russian buckwheat food)and spouting Yiddish like inflections would
tend to suggest that they are Eastern European Ashekenazic Jews!
So, while I am happy to finally see someone acknowledge that there are Italian Jews,
I am sure Frank Costanza is not meant to be one of them! :)