Who's the ace?
Gigan
I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
to Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
attack the SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
Rick? I can say with confidence Khyron isn't talking about Ben!
Gigan
gi...@jps.net
David I. Odom
Without a doubt... Max was the ace pilot.
__ _--_
.---/ | /o \ \
| | | |_/ \/
`---\__| `--'/\
[========] \/
<netfiend>
TuRtLe
Pardon me for interrupting, but I am fairly certain the Ace they speak of is
Max... apparently, he is the absolute best pilot at that time, after he
over comes his timidness.
TuRtLe
Gigan wrote in message <348F321F...@jps.net>...
Lord Morpheus
Gigan wrote:
>
> I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
> to Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
> attack the SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
> Rick? I can say with confidence Khyron isn't talking about Ben!
>
> Gigan
> gi...@jps.net
Max was the all time best pilot there was. There is no way anyone can
deny it.
Morpheus
Lord Morpheus
Steve
In article <19971211030...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
tris...@aol.com says...
> WRONG. Khyron states "Hes a micronian devil, Miriya!" and he's talking about
> Max.
> >Rick
Gotta disagree here.. He was referring to Rick since Rick was the one who
fought him to a stalemate.. At teh time Khyron had only seen Rick up
cloase and personal, and they nearly took each other out, the first time
that had ever happened..
Remember the long drawn out battle the two of them had??
Steve
--
.o0 steve...@neotekcs.com - http://www.neotekcs.com 0o.
.o0 Life is a terminal event Oo.
Remove .trash from address to reply.
Steve
In article <19971211063...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tris...@aol.com says...
> Listen to everyone else, it was Max!
> >Gotta disagree here.. He was referring to Rick since Rick
Nope.. I agree, Max is the best fighter there is, but Khyron NEVER fought
Max.. His only real head to head that mattered was against Rick.. Why
would Khyron say that Max was better when he was nearly killed by Rick??
It just so happens that Miriya saw Max going off on everything in sight
and assumed he was the ace in question..
Nemrac47
Rick.
C. Nemrac
Die Hard since '85
TristamX
Greg Mansur
Right on! It was definitely Max. The only other viable option would be
for it to be Rick, but when he and Lisa were trapped in a remote part of
the ship during a modular transformation, Rick stated that Max's abilities
were better than his. That leaves Max as the ace pilot Khyron referred to.
--
Greg Mansur
man...@netins.net
Lord Morpheus <vall...@erols.com> wrote in article
<348F70...@erols.com>...
TristamX
Jenn Dolari
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Gigan wrote:
> I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
> to Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
> attack the SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
> Rick? I can say with confidence Khyron isn't talking about Ben!
I have a feeling that he was probably referring to Roy...and Miriya
mistook Max (Who really didn't start flying rings around everyone until a
few episodes before).
Jenn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHUN LI - SHEEVA - KITANA - SONYA BLADE - MILEENA - SINDEL - CAMMY
ROSE Strength. Beauty. We have no equal in the kingdom. KING
PAI - SAKURA dol...@dragondata.com ANNA - MAI
JADE - ELLIS http://www.dragondata.com/~dolari SOFIA - NINA
HSIEN KO Not all warriors are called "Sir!" MICHELLE
CHAOS - MORRIGAN - CHARLOTTE - NAKORURU - CHAM CHAM - FELICIA - ORCHID
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nemrac47
The question wasn't who was the best pilot ever. The question was who was the
ace Khryon was speaking of. He could NOT be speaking of Max. He had NOT fought
Max. Rick DID fight Khyron to a stalemate.
Khyron also never fought angainst Fokker (directly) so that one is out too.
So it was Rick that Khyron was speaking of. If I get the chance, I'll watch the
episode again--I think it even shows a flashback image of RICK and Khyron
fighting!
Charles Nemrac
Die Hard since 85
-=Sean in Tech=-
>I have a feeling that he was probably referring to Roy...and Miriya
>mistook Max (Who really didn't start flying rings around everyone until a
>few episodes before).
In my opinion.. Roy was an awsome pilot, Rick was way better then him
but max was the best... Mira knew it was the blue veritech pilot that was
the ace not the skull one pilot. Cause she knew that befor she knew who the
pilot was for that plane.... If it had been the skull one that was the ace
pilot's craft it would of been Rick not max who would of had Mira attack
him.
Though the skull one was <as far as i know> the proto type for the
veritech, I can sort of remember after Roy died that his girlfriend <name
not remembered by myself at this time> thinks back to when she met Roy and
he was in a hanger bay looking at his "new" prototype veritch (which is the
only time we ever get to see the inner workings of a veritech) which ends up
being the skull one. The whole point to all this is... Does Max's blue
veritech have any extra abilities not shared by other veritech's or was it
all his skill??... i belive the book series states that max had made
modifications to his veritech <other then colour>. Though i've never found
any real proof of this, on the net or in the anime. just curious...
-=sean in tech=-
Ozzman
they are talking about Max Sterling
Lamont Maxwell
Ok, they were talking about max. They called him a blue devil or
something like that and we know the max flew a blue veritech. Ok.... but
Max isn't the best pilot all time, sorry. Ability yes but as a total
pilot he lacked one thing Rick and Roy had mental toughness. Zentreadi
Control Zone he got shot down because of problems at home. :) Would he
be as good of a pilot if.... he was leading and Rick and Ben sat back
and got the kills. I seriously doubt it.
RRHQ1
>I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
to
>Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
attack the
>SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
Rick?
Most people say Max is the best pilot, but I don't think that is who Khyron was
talking about. Khyron never fought against Max. He did however fight Rick.
At the end of the fight, both of their mecha were beat up. Whether Rick was
just lucky or not, he still humiliated Khyron. So I feel that Khyron was
either talking about Rick, or he wasn't really talking about anyone; he just
wanted to make Miriya mad!
---Admiral DMC McKeever
Derek Sherman
Jenn Dolari <dol...@shell.dragondata.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Gigan wrote:
>> I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
>> to Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
>> attack the SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
>> Rick? I can say with confidence Khyron isn't talking about Ben!
>I have a feeling that he was probably referring to Roy...and Miriya
>mistook Max (Who really didn't start flying rings around everyone until a
>few episodes before).
Actually, he was probably talking about Rick, believe it or not.
Khyron hadn't tangled with Roy up to that point in time. He also
hadn't tangled with Max (who would've kicked his butt all over the
sky/space/whatever). He *had* fought Rick on at least one occassion,
and Rick was the only micronian opponent Khyron had faced up to that
time who had managed to fight him to a draw.
It's my opinion that Khyron was talking about Rick. Miriya went
looking for him, but came across Max instead. Lucky for Max ^_^
Derek
Ken Nabbe
-=> Quoting "-=Sean in Tech=-" to All <=-
"iT> of a veritech) which ends up being the skull one. The whole point to
"iT> all this is... Does Max's blue veritech have any extra abilities not
"iT> shared by other veritech's or was it all his skill??... i belive the
"iT> book series states that max had made modifications to his veritech
"iT> <other then colour>. Though i've never found any real proof of this,
"iT> on the net or in the anime. just curious...
This is the same arguement I make when comparing Rick and Max, also
as a tangent, when comparing Char and Amuro in the original MSGundam
series. Does having metter and more sophisticated mecha make
you a better pilot. Skull-One was the oldest damn veritech out
there. If you were a fighter pilot, would like a brand new F-15
or would you want a F-4? In Gundam Amuro had a brand new RX-78,
with all the bells and whistles, Char was flying a Zaku][, an
old as dirt piece of junk, and was racking up more kills.
-Ken
... "Sieg Jion!!!" - Char Aznable Daikun
---
Ken Nabbe - Ken....@animece.oau.org
Ken....@animece.UUCP
...!ucf-cs!alfred!animece!Ken.Nabbe
Anime Central 407.645.2241 v.34 MNP5 8N1 24 hours
Brandon Easton
A pragmatic way to answer this is to think of cars.
If a guy is a shitty driver and he has a 1988 Dodge, if he got a brand new
Porsche he still would be a shitty driver.
Deunan
Personally, I think Khyron mentioned the "micronian devil" as an excuse for
failing all this time. He tangles with dozens (if not more) veritechs, they
probably look all the same to him.
Knowing Miriya would crave a chance for one on one with the "devil", he made it
up hoping to get her killed or at least look bad.
Deunan
Pilot
Gigan <gi...@jps.net> wrote:
>I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
>to Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
>attack the SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
>Rick? I can say with confidence Khyron isn't talking about Ben!
Here's an idea: Khyron wasn't reffering to anyone, simply making
excuses for himself in an attempt to get Miriya off his back. And it
worked!! Miriya had a great deal of pride about being the best pilot,
and what better way to shut her up than by telling her of an even
better ace pilot?! Yes, I know he and Rick had fought once and
mentioned that "he fights extremely well", but why would Khyron bring
that up after so long? Rick had little to do with Khyron's most
recent defeat.
jo...@slip.net
Khyron was talking about Rick. Khyron had earlier
remarked about Rick's
ability while they battled on the deck of the
SDF-1. He had never fought Roy or Max. So though
Max was the better pilot, Khyron had no way of
knowing that.
Joe
Gigan wrote:
>
> I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
> to Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
> attack the SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
> Rick? I can say with confidence Khyron isn't talking about Ben!
>
> Gigan
> gi...@jps.net
--
Joe
If you want to email me use this address
jo...@slip.net
Max Sterling
In article <348F321F...@jps.net>, gi...@jps.net says...
>
>I'm watching the epsiode when Roy dies I think. And I heard Khyron talk
>to Miriya about an "ace" pliot. And that's the reason Miriya went to
>attack the SDF-1. I'm wondering is Khyron talking about Roy, Max, or
>Rick? I can say with confidence Khyron isn't talking about Ben!
>
>Gigan
>gi...@jps.net
>
Khyron was refering to Rick when he told Miriya "But be warned Miriya,
there is but one pilot on that ship that you cannot best." Khyron had not
engaged in combat with Max. He DID however battle Rick, whom was the first
person to ever score a hit on Khyron in the series. He commented on how Rick
fought extremely well, and later told Miriya about it. So, Khyron was
reffering to Rick.
Max
Michael Gerald Burton
-=Sean in Tech=- (sm...@axionet.com) wrote:
: In my opinion.. Roy was an awsome pilot, Rick was way better then him
: but max was the best... Mira knew it was the blue veritech pilot that was
: the ace not the skull one pilot. Cause she knew that befor she knew who the
: pilot was for that plane.... If it had been the skull one that was the ace
: pilot's craft it would of been Rick not max who would of had Mira attack
: him.
: Though the skull one was <as far as i know> the proto type for the
: veritech, I can sort of remember after Roy died that his girlfriend <name
: not remembered by myself at this time> thinks back to when she met Roy and
: he was in a hanger bay looking at his "new" prototype veritch (which is the
: only time we ever get to see the inner workings of a veritech) which ends up
: being the skull one. The whole point to all this is... Does Max's blue
: veritech have any extra abilities not shared by other veritech's or was it
: all his skill??... i belive the book series states that max had made
: modifications to his veritech <other then colour>. Though i've never found
: any real proof of this, on the net or in the anime. just curious...
The RPG makes a definitive stand that he did. the RPG is _not_ very
accurate. I don't recall anything in the books, but i haven't read them
in a while...I think the whole thing is based on a scene wherein Rick
finds Max working on his Veritech, indicating some level of proficiency
with the tools, and so it is possible, but i don't think it's explicitly
stated in the show. His skill alone seems to be the main killer, but we
won't debate that anymore...
: -=sean in tech=-
mikey
Lamont Maxwell
I'd have to disagree. I don't think he's talking about Rick. Let's just suppose
he's talking about the "Veritech Ace". I believe it was Max because at that time
in the war he had more kills i think than everyone else with alot of help from
Rick. Anyways, she, being Miryia Parino and her Quadronos looked for the best guy
out there. The veritech who was killing the most was Max. It could've been Rick if
Lisa hadn't shot him down, but remember they faught in New Macross inside the
SDF-1 when Max kicked ur butt. She then escaped. Came back to the SDF-1 micronized
planning to kill Sterling. They faught in the arcade with the Veritech Simulation
Game where Max in his "blue" Veritech prevailed again. It has to be Max. Why would
she go through all that trouble for the wrong guy, huh? The Zentraedi may not be
bright, but do give em some credit. *grins*
L. Maxwell
Die Hard Fan!!!!
Tempest
Lamont Maxwell wrote:
I highly doubt the Aliens had OpeeChee trading cards with score stats. <g> Max
at the time was only getting the feel of his veritech and was certainly no match IMO
for Khyron. Rick and Khyron really beat each other to a pulp. If I was in Khyron's
boots, I'd almost certainly remember the guy who nearly killed me in battle and fear
him. Even if at the time Max was raking in the kills and the enemies men were talking
on the ship about it, Khyron seems like the type to always have a "better" story,
that being how him and Rick duked it out.
Brett Aspel
Khyron is talking about Rick when he tells Mirriya about "the Ace".
HOWEVER, when she goes to seek this so called ace out in battle, she ends up
fighting Max, and assumes that because he is so good, he must be the ace
Kyhron was talking about.
The whole thing was a case of mistaken identity.
Ozzman wrote in message <01bd05d1$5f899dc0$04131c26@ozzy>...
Lamont Maxwell
Now... that i think about it. Rick faught Khyron when he was pretty new to his Veritech
himself. I forget but was Rick in his first assignment Skull Squadron right?? He wasn't to
experienced and he was lucky to make it out alive, not that Khyron was a Zentraedi Ace.
Khyron wasn't that good of a pilot. Roy could've taken him. I think i know it was one of
Rick's first missions because he was shaking and sweating like a pig. That's not the
experience Robotech Ace we know Rick Hunter to be. He was a nugget at the time a newbie.
Nugget= is a term in the Navy for new pilots
L. Maxwell
Die Hard Fan!!!
TristamX
What are you talking about? Khyron was so good he usually got bored and took
out his own troops! (I'm not referring to when they disobeyed his orders)
That's how (to my knowledge) he got the nickname "The Backstabber"
Skeletor64
You can't forget, though, that Max had only 300+ hours of training when he
first was assigned to the Vermilion. According to the dialogue, that was
nearly nothing. Despite his inexperience, he still was able to dazzle the
higher-ups.
Simon Taplin
I haven't read your message but the asnwer is no. Take for example the
vietnam ws where the vc had shit planes and still mamanged to kill
many f-4s. Robotech would be no different. A bad pilot in a good
machine is still going to die if h is up against a good pilot in a
less mecha.
Simon
Thunderlips, the Ultimate Male
In article <3497a71a...@news.icon.co.za> sti...@icon.co.za (Simon
The answer shouldn't be 'no' but rather 'to a point'. Superior
weaponry can give a much needed edge and can compensate for lack of
exceptional skill....to a point. Take the example of a master swordsman,
able to slice and dice his way 20 men without mussing his hair,
confronted with a common grunt armed with an M16. Who would you bet on?
Now, i'm well aware that this example doesn't hold up as well
when talking about mecha, because a VF-19 isn't so vastly superior to a
VF-1 that comparing the two would be like comparing assault rifles to
swords, but it is superior, and would give any pilot an edge he normally
wouldn't have if he were flying an old jalopy like a VF-1 (assuming it's
2045 of course).
I feel Max is great pilot, perhaps the best pilot in the whole
of the Robotech/Macross continuity, but if he were piloting a VF-1, and
Rick Hunter or Roy Fokker were flying a VF-19, i'd bet on Roy or Rick.
Francis P Lopez
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Simon Taplin wrote:
> I haven't read your message but the asnwer is no. Take for example the
> vietnam ws where the vc had shit planes and still mamanged to kill
> many f-4s. Robotech would be no different. A bad pilot in a good
> machine is still going to die if h is up against a good pilot in a
> less mecha.
>
> Simon
>
>
You've got a point there, however... all you need to be is a good pilot in
a superior machine to beat a superior pilot in an older mech. But I think
it would depend more on knowing your mecha and what you can do with it as
opposed to just being an ace pilot.
f.
Seatbelt
Simon Taplin heeft geschreven in bericht
<3497a71a...@news.icon.co.za>...
>I haven't read your message but the asnwer is no. Take for example the
>vietnam ws where the vc had shit planes and still mamanged to kill
>many f-4s. Robotech would be no different. A bad pilot in a good
>machine is still going to die if h is up against a good pilot in a
>less mecha.
>
>Simon
Adolf Galland, General of the Luftwaffe and fighter ace of WW-2 once said:
"No matter how advanced a plane becomes, it's still the pilot who makes the
best of it."
IF it were true that a better plane outperforms a lesser plane REGARDLES
(!!) of the pilot, the German Messerschmit Me-262 Jetfighter would've made
mince-meat of the US 8th Airforce.
They did not.
So, no matter how nice you mecha, plane, tank or whatever, if you can't use
it properly, you're no good at all.
"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fifteen rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a sixteenth round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
http://www.herbert.demon.nl
http://www.macross.org/trooper
Deunan
Mecha is great but though it depends mostly on the pilot, the better tech gives
him/her/it an edge. Depending on the level of Tech, depends on the edge.
But when a pilot is overwhelmed by technology in his craft, he's screwed.
IE Grunt A is too busy trying to lock onto a tank with a rocket when Grunt B
smashes his head in from behind with a rock.
Deunan
Seatbelt
Francis P Lopez heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>>You've got a point there, however... all you need to be is a good pilot in
>a superior machine to beat a superior pilot in an older mech. But I think
>it would depend more on knowing your mecha and what you can do with it as
>opposed to just being an ace pilot.
>
Absolutely NOT true.
A good pilot in a superior machine will LOSE a fight with a superior pilot
in an older machine.
Proof?
Just look at the pilots being shot down in Me-262 jets in 1944/45 by pilots
in P-51 Mustang or P-47 Thunderbolts.
The Me-262 was by far superior to either the P-51 or P-47. BUT the pilots in
the Allied fighter were better trained, had better motivation and were
veterans, where as the pilots in the Me-262s were mostly pilots that had had
5 hours of flying before having to go up against the 8th Air Force.
Even such heralded pilots as Nowotny, Galland, Marseille and who else, were
shot down in their Me-262s by Allied pilots flying simple propellor planes.
No, a better pilot in a lesser machine will still beat a lesser pilot in a
superior craft.
Now don't give me bull about setting up an F-22 against a Fokker Dr-1.
Seatbelt
Thunderlips, the Ultimate Male heeft geschreven in bericht
<12-17-19...@cancom.net>...
>
> The answer shouldn't be 'no' but rather 'to a point'. Superior
>weaponry can give a much needed edge and can compensate for lack of
>exceptional skill....to a point. Take the example of a master swordsman,
>able to slice and dice his way 20 men without mussing his hair,
>confronted with a common grunt armed with an M16. Who would you bet on?
Wrong example. You're comparing apples (Swords) to oranges (Machineguns).
That doesn't work and makes an imbalanced comparison.
> Now, i'm well aware that this example doesn't hold up as well
>when talking about mecha, because a VF-19 isn't so vastly superior to a
>VF-1 that comparing the two would be like comparing assault rifles to
>swords,
No. A gun is something completely different than a sword. A gun is not a
development of the Sword.
> but it is superior, and would give any pilot an edge he normally
>wouldn't have if he were flying an old jalopy like a VF-1 (assuming it's
>2045 of course).
A better example would be:
Is the Spitfire a better plane than the Focke Wulf FW-190? Initially, NO.
But after adding bigger guns in the Mk V Spit, they were able to hit the
FW-190 from longer distances. Also improved cockpits and engine improved the
Spit as well.
Were FW-190s being shot down? Yes. By Spitfire Mk 1 and 2s. Because pilots
with experience can outfox the lesser experienced pilot, even when flying a
superior craft.
> I feel Max is great pilot, perhaps the best pilot in the whole
>of the Robotech/Macross continuity, but if he were piloting a VF-1, and
>Rick Hunter or Roy Fokker were flying a VF-19, i'd bet on Roy or Rick.
No no no. Mike Fields from Robotech II: Sentinels, guardians of Earth.
</PLUG>
Bobby Barton
Seatbelt <her...@herbert.demon.nl> wrote in article
<882400875.15784....@news.demon.nl>...
>
> Simon Taplin heeft geschreven in bericht
> <3497a71a...@news.icon.co.za>...
> >I haven't read your message but the asnwer is no. Take for example the
> >vietnam ws where the vc had shit planes and still mamanged to kill
> >many f-4s. Robotech would be no different. A bad pilot in a good
> >machine is still going to die if h is up against a good pilot in a
> >less mecha.
> >
> >Simon
>
> Adolf Galland, General of the Luftwaffe and fighter ace of WW-2 once
said:
>
> "No matter how advanced a plane becomes, it's still the pilot who makes
the
> best of it."
>
> IF it were true that a better plane outperforms a lesser plane REGARDLES
> (!!) of the pilot, the German Messerschmit Me-262 Jetfighter would've
made
> mince-meat of the US 8th Airforce.
>
> They did not.
>
That they did not is a statement of how bad off Germany was at the end of
WW2.
A lack of piloting ability was effecting the FW-190s and Me-109 groups, but
that's not
what stopped the jets. Galland himself hand-picked the pilots for those
squadrons.
The pilots of the aircraft were some of the best the Luftwaffe had to
offer. What stopped
them wasn't a lack of piloting ability on their part or and excess amount
of it on the part
of the allies. It was fuel. They couldn't fly enough of the jets at the
end of the war due to
a lack of fuel. The few times the jets were shot down was mostly due to
the ingenuity of
the allied pilots (shooting them down on landing approaches or right after
take off, both times
when the jet is low and slow) Technology does provide an edge in most
cases. But it didn't
help much in this situation because of the overwhelming odds against Nazi
Germany. Fortunately
for the 8th AF and the entire world, those jets did not have the time and
space needed to
effect the outcome of the war.
>So, no matter how nice you mecha, plane, tank or whatever, if you can't
use
> it properly, you're no good at all.
>
That much is true. And as far as the paragraph below goes, numbers beat
technology always.
Bobby Barton
Seatbelt <herbert.no.s...@herbert.demon.nl> wrote in article
<882449558.21164....@news.demon.nl>...
>
> Francis P Lopez heeft geschreven in bericht ...
> >>You've got a point there, however... all you need to be is a good pilot
in
> >a superior machine to beat a superior pilot in an older mech. But I
think
> >it would depend more on knowing your mecha and what you can do with it
as
> >opposed to just being an ace pilot.
> >
>
> Absolutely NOT true.
>
> A good pilot in a superior machine will LOSE a fight with a superior
pilot
> in an older machine.
>
> Proof?
>
> Just look at the pilots being shot down in Me-262 jets in 1944/45 by
pilots
> in P-51 Mustang or P-47 Thunderbolts.
>
> The Me-262 was by far superior to either the P-51 or P-47. BUT the pilots
in
> the Allied fighter were better trained, had better motivation and were
> veterans, where as the pilots in the Me-262s were mostly pilots that had
had
> 5 hours of flying before having to go up against the 8th Air Force.
Not! Adolph Galland hand picked most of the pilots for the Me-262. These
pilots were
veterans of the Eastern Front in most cases. I agree that Germany threw
anyone that
they could into older -109s and -190s towards the end of the war, but don't
generalize like
that.
>
> Even such heralded pilots as Nowotny, Galland, Marseille and who else,
were
> shot down in their Me-262s by Allied pilots flying simple propellor
planes.
>
While either out of gas, out of energy, taking off, or landing.
> No, a better pilot in a lesser machine will still beat a lesser pilot in
a
> superior craft.
It can happen. Witness a particular air battle over Vietnam where two A-1
Spads shot down
a MiG-17. But that is a exception rather than the rule. And in most
cases, the better pilot have better
not just be good and his opponent has to make some very bad mistakes.
>
> Now don't give me bull about setting up an F-22 against a Fokker Dr-1.
Okay. How about a P-26 against a Dr-1? Piloting ability counts. But only
for so much.
Like it or not, technology makes a huge difference in the outcome
of any battle. The technical edge the opponent poses better not be a big
one, or even a
great pilot in an old plane is going to lose.
Francis P Lopez
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Seatbelt wrote:
>
> Francis P Lopez heeft geschreven in bericht ...
> >>You've got a point there, however... all you need to be is a good pilot in
> >a superior machine to beat a superior pilot in an older mech. But I think
> >it would depend more on knowing your mecha and what you can do with it as
> >opposed to just being an ace pilot.
> >
>
> Absolutely NOT true.
>
> A good pilot in a superior machine will LOSE a fight with a superior pilot
> in an older machine.
>
> Proof?
>
> Just look at the pilots being shot down in Me-262 jets in 1944/45 by pilots
> in P-51 Mustang or P-47 Thunderbolts.
>
ok, I'm looking:)
> The Me-262 was by far superior to either the P-51 or
P-47. BUT the pilots in
> the Allied fighter were better trained, had better motivation and were
> veterans, where as the pilots in the Me-262s were mostly pilots that had had
> 5 hours of flying before having to go up against the 8th Air Force.
>
5 hours of flying does not make them a good pilot, infact if you've only
had 5 hours you probably shouldnt be engaging anyone in the first place.
what I said was a "good pilot in a good machine." It is possible to two
seasoned veterans and yet one still be better then the other.
Besides I would hardly consider an Me-262 jet superior to a P-51 Mustang
or P-47 Thunderbolts. Sure the Me-262 might have been the latest thing but
jets were something quite new, where the P-51 was, while older, top of the
line. Heck, I'd take a P-51 over that jet any ole day. Which brings me to
my other point that it all depends on how well you know your machine
>such heralded pilots as Nowotny, Galland, Marseille and who else, were
> shot down in their Me-262s by Allied pilots flying simple propellor planes.
>
Allied pilots were better trained. The people in question are of the same
training or close too (with the exception of Roy Fokker)
> No, a better pilot in a lesser machine will still beat a lesser pilot in a
> superior craft.
I dont dissagree with you, Im just saying that isnt alsways the case
> Now don't give me bull about setting up an F-22 against a Fokker Dr-1.
Calm down guy, dont get you're tailfins in an uproar, I'm just stating my
opinion. It doesnt have to be wrong or right, just my opinion.
Seatbelt
Bobby Barton heeft geschreven in bericht <01bd0bc6$3444dbc0$e76524d1@->...
>
>
>Seatbelt <herbert.no.s...@herbert.demon.nl> wrote in article
><882449558.21164....@news.demon.nl>...
>> >> Absolutely NOT true.
>>
>> A good pilot in a superior machine will LOSE a fight with a superior
>pilot
>> in an older machine.
>>
>> Proof?
>>
>> Just look at the pilots being shot down in Me-262 jets in 1944/45 by
>pilots
>> in P-51 Mustang or P-47 Thunderbolts.
>>
>> The Me-262 was by far superior to either the P-51 or P-47. BUT the pilots
>in
>> the Allied fighter were better trained, had better motivation and were
>> veterans, where as the pilots in the Me-262s were mostly pilots that had
>had
>> 5 hours of flying before having to go up against the 8th Air Force.
>
>Not! Adolph Galland hand picked most of the pilots for the Me-262.
Uhm..... let us first determine WHEN the Luftwaffe agreed with Galland so he
could form his Jagdverband 44? Well, that was March1945. The Me-262 had been
flying ever since October 1944. The Schwalbes were far superior as a plane
compared to any piston engine plane. But, in the light of this discussion,
the first units were flying with ill-prepared airmen. Had it also not been
for the fact production was delayed severely to produce the Me-262 A2A
Sturmvogel fighter/bomber, the Me-262 could've made a difference. It did
not. Blaming only the pilots is not fair to them, as a whole number of other
aspects caused the Me-262 to fail in it's task.
> These
>pilots were
>veterans of the Eastern Front in most cases. I agree that Germany threw
>anyone that
>they could into older -109s and -190s towards the end of the war, but don't
>generalize like
>that.
That's not generalization, it's a FACT. Galland is quoted to "Often wondered
how young boys who could barely fly an Me-109 be placed in the seat of an
Me-262."
>>
>> Even such heralded pilots as Nowotny, Galland, Marseille and who else,
>were
>> shot down in their Me-262s by Allied pilots flying simple propellor
>planes.
>>
>While either out of gas, out of energy, taking off, or landing.
Thus, a superior plane can be tackled by an inferior plane with a superior
pilot. If not for the pilot noticing this, would the Me-262 been in danger?
No. Therefore it is solely the pilot who brings down the superior Me-262.
Off course, you can't stay in the air longer than your fuel supply permits
you to.
>
>> No, a better pilot in a lesser machine will still beat a lesser pilot in
>a
>> superior craft.
>
>It can happen. Witness a particular air battle over Vietnam where two A-1
>Spads shot down
>a MiG-17. But that is a exception rather than the rule. And in most
>cases, the better pilot have better
>not just be good and his opponent has to make some very bad mistakes.
Korea. P-51s shooting down Mig 15s by letting them shoot past them, then
line up the P-51 to take out the jet.
>>
>> Now don't give me bull about setting up an F-22 against a Fokker Dr-1.
>
>Okay. How about a P-26 against a Dr-1? Piloting ability counts. But only
>for so much.
> Like it or not, technology makes a huge difference in the outcome
>of any battle. The technical edge the opponent poses better not be a big
>one, or even a
>great pilot in an old plane is going to lose.
The DR-1 was a potent plane for it's time, and given the superior pilot CAN
shoot down the superior P-26 pea-shooter. A Dr-1 has a very tight turn, an
advantage due to it's triple wing design.
But taking it back to Robotech:
Will a pilot in an Alpha beat a superior pilot flying a VF-1? The Alpha is
the successor of the VF-1 series, thus is the superior craft here,
Wouldn't a Pilot like Roy or Max shoot down the Alpha if piloted by a lesser
pilot? I think he will, as he can turn the disadvantages of the VF-1 into
possible advantages, and exploit weaknesses of the Alpha.
And will a greater amount of automation, more technological gizmos and what
else not cause the pilot to be more complacent in flight? Thus, making him
less aware then a pilot who needs to check his plane more frequently? Off
course it's easier to pick of someone 5 km out with a missile than it is to
shoot him down with the cannons or guns in a dogfight, but then, you can
dodge a missile with ECM or a flare or chaff, but bullets or shells can only
be evaded by the better pilot's flying skills. You can't fool a bullet or
shell coming your way with some ECM system. It's dumb weapon, therefore
can't be fooled. Technological advantages will only call for more
technological advantages, in the end, it is only and will for ever only be
the pilot that makes a difference.
Can Chuck Yeager shoot down a Mig 29? Hell yes he can. Why? Because he's got
the better experience, knowledge, perhaps drive and motivation than a
younger pilot has who's only been flying a jet.
Can't there be jet-aces? Sure, but are they better pilots than those who
went out with only guns and a wing and a prayer? Can't tell. Better planes
give more choices, more options to utilize. A Spitfire gives you one option:
Shoot or be shot.
This of course remains true, but an F-22 adds: I can be somewhat invisible,
I can fool incoming missiles, I can bank and turn better, fly Mach 1+ all
the way, track several bogeys at the same time. But can the F-22 pilot duke
it out in the Spitfire against someone who only flew a Spit? I think not.
Vice versa? Maybe so.
Simon Taplin
> The answer shouldn't be 'no' but rather 'to a point'. Superior
>weaponry can give a much needed edge and can compensate for lack of
>exceptional skill....to a point. Take the example of a master swordsman,
>able to slice and dice his way 20 men without mussing his hair,
>confronted with a common grunt armed with an M16. Who would you bet on?
Tactics would play a part in it but I agree m16 would win.
> I feel Max is great pilot, perhaps the best pilot in the whole
>of the Robotech/Macross continuity, but if he were piloting a VF-1, and
>Rick Hunter or Roy Fokker were flying a VF-19, i'd bet on Roy or Rick.
Rick and Roy were also good pilots but an average pilot against max in
a close-in dog fight in my opinion would still be beaten.
Simon
Simon Taplin
>
>
>On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Simon Taplin wrote:
>
>> I haven't read your message but the asnwer is no. Take for example the
>> vietnam ws where the vc had shit planes and still mamanged to kill
>> many f-4s. Robotech would be no different. A bad pilot in a good
>> machine is still going to die if h is up against a good pilot in a
>> less mecha.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>You've got a point there, however... all you need to be is a good pilot in
>a superior machine to beat a superior pilot in an older mech.
I think you have this the wrong way around.
>But I think it would depend more on knowing your mecha and what you can do with it as
>opposed to just being an ace pilot.
I disagree with that, a pilot could know the veritech inside out and
still be beaten by a better pilot in a less capable machine.
Simon
Kris Rayner
This carries over to auto racing too. A good driver can make an inferior
car do miracles. On the other hand, a poor driver in a, let's say McLaren
F1, will lose the race. Why, because racing is more than just straight
line speed. The driver has to know where to cut the apex of the turn, when
to get back in the throttle, when to trail brake, and know how to jump a
start. The same is so for pilots. Give an inferior pilot a Mig-29 and
he'll kill himself. Give a fighter ace an old biplane, and he'll make it
do things you've never seen one do. However, when you've got two excellent
pilots it them comes down to the planes. If one is superior in low
altitude handling, and the other at high altitude, then depeding on who
works what to his advantage.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
Kris Rayner
"What, behind the rabbit?." -Monty Python
veri...@fix.net
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2422/index.html
1981 Volkswagen Scirocco S--The Best Year
Francis P Lopez <fpl...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.96.971217...@callisto.acsu.buffalo.edu>...
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Simon Taplin wrote:
>
> > I haven't read your message but the asnwer is no. Take for example the
> > vietnam ws where the vc had shit planes and still mamanged to kill
> > many f-4s. Robotech would be no different. A bad pilot in a good
> > machine is still going to die if h is up against a good pilot in a
> > less mecha.
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> You've got a point there, however... all you need to be is a good pilot
in
> a superior machine to beat a superior pilot in an older mech. But I think
> it would depend more on knowing your mecha and what you can do with it as
> opposed to just being an ace pilot.
>
>
>
> f.
>
>
>
Tempest
Ack. alt.tv.robotech doesn't do this newsgroup justice. It should be renamed
to alt.tv.robotech.and.ww2.
Seatbelt
Tempest heeft geschreven in bericht <3499C571...@MNSi.net>...
>Ack. alt.tv.robotech doesn't do this newsgroup justice. It should be
renamed
>to alt.tv.robotech.and.ww2.
>
Quit whining, we're discussing the thread to the letter, giving examples
from history to prove out point.
There's also no NEED to read these posts, you can simply skip those headers
you're not interested in.
Seatbelt
Kris Rayner heeft geschreven in bericht
<01bd0bf8$a2ad4020$669572cf@sdf-1>...
>This carries over to auto racing too. A good driver can make an inferior
>car do miracles.
Damon Hill, Arrows, Hungaroring 1997?
> On the other hand, a poor driver in a, let's say McLaren
>F1, will lose the race.
Michael Andretti 1993. He was replaced by Mika Hakkinen halfway through the
season.
> Why, because racing is more than just straight
>line speed. The driver has to know where to cut the apex of the turn, when
>to get back in the throttle, when to trail brake, and know how to jump a
>start.
Uhm.... that's a 10 second penalty. :-)
> The same is so for pilots. Give an inferior pilot a Mig-29 and
>he'll kill himself.
No, those planes have excellent ejector seats as demonstrated on
Farnborough. Or was that Le Bourget?
> Give a fighter ace an old biplane, and he'll make it
>do things you've never seen one do. However, when you've got two excellent
>pilots it them comes down to the planes. If one is superior in low
>altitude handling, and the other at high altitude, then depeding on who
>works what to his advantage.
When 2 equally experienced pilots meet, even then an inferior craft can
outfox the other superior one. Wasn't the Japanese Zero considered a big
threat to the US fighters in the early part of the Pacific war? Yes it was.
But capable US pilots did shoot down the Zero in that early time of the war.
Do the unexpected, be surprising, and you can win. In the end, ONE pilot
will win, and give the victor credit for his skill, possible mixed with a
superior craft, but more so, the pilot is the decisive factor.
Can an Ace in an F-16 or F-15 win from an Ace in an F-22? I do think so.
How? By doing the unexpected, the unorthodox. Surprise, puzzle and fool your
oponent.
Lamont Maxwell
Ok... hmmmm a better aircraft will not gurantee victory, necessarily.
Hmmmm.... i'm not sure about this so dont quote me on it plz. Russian Migs in
Vietnam were better dogfighters than the Navy ColdWar Interceptor, the
Phantom f-4. That didn't mean that Russian pilots had more kills. In fact, i
believe US pilots did because of their better training. They used the speed
of the F-4 to their advantage to outrun (hehe.. bad memory) Migs on turn
because the F-4 had a crappy turn rate. Hmmm.... ok i forget the name, but
the Russians had jetfighters before the US and used them toward the end of
WW2. Hitler i believed used them as fighter bombers instead of fighters and
in my opinion caused them the war. When these fighters finally meet P-51,
Mustangs and P-40, Thunderbolts, they lost because of the allies superior
numbers :-). Even though they were superior fighters.
I'm sorry what is a VF-19. I saw an episode when 2 jocks with different
crafts were in a competition with each other one had a dark veritech that he
could control with is mind and the other guy had a standard veritech of sorts
that looked like hmmmmm.... the VF-4 Lightning.
Die Hard Fan !!!!
Mike Bobbick
Your all avoiding the point here. First, even though Max was an ACE, he
was still new. Sure, he flew one mission, but simulators are different from
the real thing. Every pilot can tell you that, and until Roy died, he was
still in Vermillion.If he's as great as you say he is, why wasn't he in
Skull? Rick was in Skull, but Roy gave him his own squadron... So that's
one point, not something to base my whole arguement on, but still something
to mention.
Second, as stated before, NOBODY ELSE faced Khyon except for Rick. Damn
it, if your facing a Zentraede Officer Pod, how the hell are you gonna
feel? See it from Rick's point of view. Here you are, guarding the rear,
and you decide to violate orders becuase the SDF-1 is getting an
ass-woopin. Then, you zoom into the battle, having to remember, you got two
complete newbies to look after and your own flank to look at. Then, to Top
it all off, your looking at one ass big pod, whose pilot want to blow the
hell outta you. Yeah! I'm sure you'd be doing more than sweating, your
flight suit would have wet pants after that one. If your one of the top
pilots in the Zentraedi fleet, and somebody survived flying against you,
aren't you gonna consider him an ace? Think about it!
Mikeman
#robotech on Efnet
The Unexplained
Lamont Maxwell heeft geschreven in bericht
<349AFCD7...@pop.se.mediaone.net>...
>Ok... hmmmm a better aircraft will not gurantee victory, necessarily.
>Hmmmm.... i'm not sure about this so dont quote me on it plz. Russian Migs
in
>
>Vietnam were better dogfighters than the Navy ColdWar Interceptor, the
>Phantom f-4. That didn't mean that Russian pilots had more kills. In fact,
i
>believe US pilots did because of their better training. They used the speed
>of the F-4 to their advantage to outrun (hehe.. bad memory) Migs on turn
>because the F-4 had a crappy turn rate.
Weren't F-4s easily spotted due to their smoke trails? And also, wasn't the
lack of guns on the F-4 an issue as well? Depending solely on missiles.
Wasn't the Vietnam early-war fiasco the reason for Topgun training?
> Hmmm.... ok i forget the name, but
>the Russians had jetfighters before the US and used them toward the end of
>WW2.
Sure, they hauled some prototype Messerschmit Me-1101 jets and turned them
into the Mig 13. Just set the 2 next to each other, and try to find the
differences. Up to the Mig-19, you couldn't tell them, Me-1101-Mig 13, 15
and 19, apart.
> Hitler i believed used them as fighter bombers instead of fighters and
>in my opinion caused them the war.
Yes. Radically hampered production of the Me-262.
> When these fighters finally meet P-51,
>Mustangs and P-40, Thunderbolts, they lost because of the allies superior
>numbers :-). Even though they were superior fighters.
True, but the Jumo-engines didn't last longer than 15 hours, that too had
it's impact. Plus, there was the fact that veteran Luftwaffe pilots were
shot down at a high rate. Simply because they had to keep going up to defend
the homeland. US pilots did 25 missions, then were sent back home to give
new pilots info from their experience.
>
>I'm sorry what is a VF-19. I saw an episode when 2 jocks with different
>crafts were in a competition with each other one had a dark veritech that
he
>could control with is mind and the other guy had a standard veritech of
sorts
>
>that looked like hmmmmm.... the VF-4 Lightning.
Macross Plus. I've got episodes 1 to 3 and can't find 4 in the Netherlands.
It's all about the competition between 2 models of plane, the rivalry
between the pilots Isamu and Guld over Myun, a love interest for the two.
Very nifty animation.
Fribble and Co. <Jane Bierce family>
Fellas,
This has been a fascinating read, all of your posts. All of you have
made valid points. I'd like to inject a few:
1) Tactics. A team of warriors working together can defeat a highly
superior single opponent, not just from greater numbers or sacrificing
one of their number, but by forcing the foe into a vulnerable
situation...and then taking advantage of it.
2) Situational Awareness. I know it first hand from a "dogfight" I
experienced in the real world--I was flying a practice outing in a
Cessna 152 once over Tampa when I was buzzed by a Cristensen Eagle. He
had a far superior machine than mine...but I saw him coming and had
several options available to me. If the improvements to a mecha include
ways to keep the pilot alert and focused on his situation, then the
pilot will be more likely to succeed.
Case in point to that supposition: P-51D versus earlier models. The D
type sacrificed some speed for the superior visibility of the bubble
canopy, which wasn't as sleek as the "greenhouse" arrangement of the
earlier types. It was the combination of the greater situational
awareness offered by the canopy design, and the improvement in firepower
with the addition of two guns, that made the P-51D the aircraft of more
aces than any other in American Military History.
Pilots in the Vietnam War in particular saw their awareness shrink with
the increasing complexity of the machines they flew. Even though they
had a firepower advantage, the North Vietnam Air Force pilots with their
simpler MiGs actually had an awareness advantage. Tactics are a product
of greater situational awareness.
3) Suitability for the job at hand. Example: Spitfires were the best
day interceptors of World War Two. But they weren't much good for
long-range escort or ground attack missions. The Focke-Wulf 190 was a
menace as a low-altitude strike fighter, but the radial-engined versions
had an altitude limit and some Allied planes could outfly them easily
above a certain point. The Heinkel 100D in 1939/40 was feared by the
RAF for being 50 mph faster than any British fighter--but it never went
into combat...it only carried two guns and had insufficient range and
durability. There is no way to have superiority in all factors in all
regimes.
I want to chat more but my modem is giving me fits. Catch you later.
Stephen Bierce
KH...@delphi.com
Found the following in a book I got from my library, "Aliens, Robots, and
Spaceships", a type of science fiction encyclopedia, by one Jeff Rovin.
I borrowed it and looked up "Robotech" just on a lark, and lo and behold I
found... Something truly horrific and indescribable. Read it for yourself.
I'd like to know where he got his "information".
Exerpt from "Aliens, Robots, and Spaceships" by Jeff Rovin.
Copyright 1995 by Jeff Rovin
Published by Facts on File, Inc.
Page 231-232
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robotech (C, TV, MP, L) [means it appeared in comic books, television, a
motion picture, and books]
First Appearance: Robotech Defenders, 1985, DC comics. (See Comment)
Physical Description: The original robots are humanoid giants that stand
about 100 feet tall, can fly, and are armed with "radar-directed, rapid fire
lasers".
The TV robots stand an average of 30 feet tall in "battloid" mode, 15 in
"jet" mode.
Biography: The UWC is dedicated to peace among the planets, but the evil
Grelons want no part of it. They wage war on the planets and seem poised to
dismantle the UWC and takeover. However, as fighter-pilot Malek stands in
the ruins of Zoltek City on Zoltek, she finds a hitherto unkonwn entrance to
the giant statue, thh Ancient Colossus of Zoltek, and goes inside. She
discovers that the giant is actually a robot, and, flying into space,
destroys the retreating Grelon Battle Cruiser. Malek also finds a map that
indicates the presence of similar robots on other planets, and informers her
fellow warriors. Eedon heads to his swamp-world Talons, Scal to mountainous
Thoren, Akros to the desert world Condar, Icik to the frozen world Ziyon,
Silky to the water world Aqualo, and Dex to the crowded, hi-tech world
Gartan. Climbing inside the giant robots, the heroes counterattack the
Grelons.
Comment: There are two very different versions of the saga. The saga cited
abovve is the original comic book continuity, which debuted in January, part
of DC's three-issue Robotech Defenders miniseries and inspired by model kits
manufactured by Revell, INc. The kits were inspired by a Japanese cartoon
series created in 1979; these cartoons were syndicated by Harmony Gold in
the U.S. in 1985, edited together, and presented with a different storyline.
In the original Japanese version, it's 1256 A.L., and natives of the moon
Tirol, third moon of Fantoma, begin exploring space aboard the starship
Aztraph. They discover the Tzuptum system, make contact with the planet
Optera, and crew-member Zor learns secrets from the tall, stately, humanoid
Invid Queen Regiss, which leads to new techologies and the rise of the sage
Robotech Masters. Their work leads to the construction of amazing
personell-carrying robots that have human-like "battloid" mode and a flying
"jet" mode. Meanwhile, the Invid Regent - who looks like a humanoid bull
with a slug face - declares war on Tirol, attacking with robots including
the insect-like Crann, humanlike Enforces, the leonine Hellcats, the apish
Odeon, the bipedal four-armed Scrimm, and the flying Scouts. He and the
Invid Regiss part company, she to conduct experiments in evolution while he
seeks to expand his empire. Years later in 1999 Earthtime, Zor's
Superdimensional Fortress (SDF) 1 reaches Earth... along with the war. (Like
the robots and the second SDF, the 1 is transformable.) The United Earth
Defense Council is formed to protect our world, and ouronly hope lies in the
effectiveness of Captain Henry Gloval and his cadets, notably Rick Hunter.
The First Robotech War is waged through 83 half-hour cartoons.
After the success of the first series, other series were produced and aired
in Japapn. Thirty-six episodes of Superdimensional Fortress Macross aired in
1983-83, followed by Robotech II: The Sentinels in 1986. (Note: The U.S.
series Superdimensional Fortress Macross also includes episodes from
Southern Cross and Mospeada, dubbed and edited to "fit" into the series,
providing 85 episodes for syndication.) In this series, set 10 years later,
the United Earth Government has created its own Earth-defense robot force
consisting of the Jungle Squad, Sea Squad, Desert Squad, Mount Offense
Squad, Cold Weather Offensive Squad, Alpha Tactical Armored Corps,
Ground-Based Military Police, Tactical Armored Space Corps, Cosmic Units,
Tactical Air Force, Civil Defense Unit, Tactical Corps, Re-Con Escort
Patrol, and Humid Climate Offensive Squad. Out in space, SDF-3 Macross and
its mighty spacefold drive carry members of the Robotech Expeditionary Force
from Earth to Tirol, hoping to establish some kind of peace. (Unlike the
SDF-1 and SDF-2, the 1,190-foot tall, mile-long SDF-3 is not transformable.)
Unknown to both sides, the evil Invid are poised to invade Tirol. The attack
is successful, leading to the creul reign of the Invid Regent and his aide
Invid Brain, a super bio-computer. Thus, the Earth heroes of the SDF-3
-known as the Robotech Expeditionary Force- go to war against this new foe
and win, the Invid Regent hopping from Optera to Karbar-Ra to Prazxi and
evil Tirol to elude the victors. Tirol thanks us for our assistance by
launching a last, ferocious attack on Earth. Fortunately, a diverse team of
aliens known as the Sentinels, aboard the ship Farrago, join in the fray on
behalf of Earth and Tirol, swinging the balance in the defenders' favor. The
ranks of the Sentinels in clude Baldan of Spheris, Bela and Gnea of Praxis,
Burak of Peryton, Crysta and Lron of Karbarra, Kami and Learna of Garuda,
Sarna and Veidt of Haydon IV, teal of Spheris, and Tesla of Optera (captured
during the war, the prisoner defects). General Edwards, his aide Benson, Dr.
Lang, and others remain onboard the SDF-3 in orbit around Tirol (stranded
there, actually, lacking the needed ore to power their ship back to Earth);
as for the Sentinels, they are stranded on Praxis when the Farrago is
destroyed by the Invid.
The two were followed by the series Superdimensional Fortress Macross II,
which aired in 1991 and is set 300 years after the first Macross saga. The
events in this series are triggered when young Scramble News Network
reporter Hibiki Kanzaki finds the Zentraedi Princess Ishtar and takes her
back to Earth. (The Zentraedi had had dealins with Zor much earlier in the
sagga.) With the help of figher Silvie, Gena, and the reactivated Macross
and its crew, the governing body of the U.N. Spacy is able to stave off the
aliens with their battle armor and variable fighers (now merged into
transformable robotic giants like the VF-2SS and VF-2JA).
An animated feature fil, Robotech the MOvie, had a very limited release in
the United States in 1986.
Del Rey publishes a successful series of novels by Jack McKinney based on
the Robotech universe. The Robotech novels are Genesis, Battle Cry,
Homecoming, attlehumn, Force of Arms, Doomsday, Southern Cross, Metal Fire,
The Final Nightmare, Invid Invasion, Metamorphosis, Symphony of Light, and
The End of the Circle. The sagga continues in the Sentinels novels, The
Devil's Hand, Dark Powers, Death Dance, World Killers, and Rubicon.
After DC's comic book miniseries, Comico published Robotech Masters based on
the TV series, which lasted 23 issues from 1985 to 1988. Comico also
published 36 issues of Robotech: The Macross saga from 1985 to 1989, as well
as Robotech: The New Generation and the one-shots Robotech Special, Robotech
in 3-D, and Robotech the Graphic Novel.
The Eternity impirint of Malibu comics has published an ongoing series based
on Robotech II: The Sentinels, as well as the two-issue Robotech II: The
Sentinels Wedding Special (The marriage of Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes) plus
the continuing comic books Robotech II: The Malcontent Uprisings; Robotech
II: The Sentinels, the Untold Story; Robotech II: The Sentinels:
Cyberpirates; Robotech: Invid War; Robotech Genesis and Invid War:
Aftermath, set 10 years after the departure of the Invid, and involving the
attempt to locate the Superdimensonal Fortress III, while Earth struggles to
overcome the colapse of its technology. There has even been the Robotech
II: The Sentinels Swimsuit Spectacular, among other titles.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really do not know what to say. The utter ignorance and stupidity makes me
doubt this guy even watched the series or the novels. He probably got some
second or third-hand reports from a friend, along with title lists of books
and comics. Aaarrghh....
Cecil
Tom Beliech
KH...@delphi.com wrote:
(Author Jeff Rovin's completely ignorant account of Robotech mercifully
snipped)
> I really do not know what to say. The utter ignorance and stupidity makes me
> doubt this guy even watched the series or the novels. He probably got some
> second or third-hand reports from a friend, along with title lists of books
> and comics. Aaarrghh....
>
> Cecil
That's disgusting!
I bet if he tried to write a Sports Almanac, and talked about Joe
Montana being quarterback for the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1987, his book
would never have been published. But since both he and his editors were
both completely ignorant and villanously nonchalant about their own
subject matter, this gets through. The message - it's okay to be stupid
about something as long as the masses aren't interested.
Tom B.
Fribble & Co. <Jane Bierce family>
KH...@delphi.com wrote:
>
> Found the following in a book I got from my library, "Aliens, Robots, and
> Spaceships", a type of science fiction encyclopedia, by one Jeff Rovin.
(Large listing about Robotech snipped)
Jeff Rovin also wrote a book in 1985, "The Encyclopedia of Superheroes",
that included some anime in the appendix. Unfortunately, much of the
anime he included are obscure to otaku like us (Rainbowmen, Super
Formula Volga, Kosoku Denjin Alvegas, Tokuso Kihei Dorvack), and totally
ignored famous anime (though I'd wonder if he considered Captain Harlock
or Lupin III to be "superheroes"). He did include Astro Boy and Prince
Planet in his book, so I credit him for that much.
Besides, for a layperson, Jeff Rovin shows he did take on some of the
homework involved. The description of the DC ROBOTECH comic book is
mostly accurate. The ROBOTECH continuity is, unfortunately, so
confusing that someone who isn't a fan would find following the story
bewilderingly complex. I tried to write an overview myself, but mine is
incomplete and lacks the later comics (post 1994). I've got it on disk
somewhere...(no, I'm not going to post it in the newsgroup). Since I
don't have the later comics, I can't resume work on it.
Give Jeff some credit. At least he didn't totally ignore ROBOTECH.
Stephen Bierce
Skeletor64
>Give Jeff some credit. At least he didn't totally ignore ROBOTECH.
>
>Stephen Bierce
I think it might have been better off completely ignoring it since he messed it
up that badly.
Chris Collins
The Unexplained wrote:
>
> Lamont Maxwell heeft geschreven in bericht
> <349AFCD7...@pop.se.mediaone.net>...
> >Ok... hmmmm a better aircraft will not gurantee victory, necessarily.
> >Hmmmm.... i'm not sure about this so dont quote me on it plz. Russian Migs
> in
> >
> >Vietnam were better dogfighters than the Navy ColdWar Interceptor, the
> >Phantom f-4. That didn't mean that Russian pilots had more kills. In fact,
> i
> >believe US pilots did because of their better training. They used the speed
> >of the F-4 to their advantage to outrun (hehe.. bad memory) Migs on turn
> >because the F-4 had a crappy turn rate.
>
> Weren't F-4s easily spotted due to their smoke trails? And also, wasn't the
> lack of guns on the F-4 an issue as well?
Excuse me for butting in.
As far as I know all but the photo-recon version of the f-4 had an
onboard 20mm six barreled rotary cannon. 20mm rounds at 6000 RPM, sheesh
what else do you want? Six .50 cal in the wings?
> > Hitler i believed used them as fighter bombers instead of fighters and
> >in my opinion caused them the war.
>
> Yes. Radically hampered production of the Me-262.
ahem, What really lost the war for the Axis Forces was probably several
factors. Lack of a serious naval presence in the Medeteranean (sp?), or
anywere else for that matter. shure the Kriegsmarine had its successes
but really didn't have the strategic presence of the Royal Navy and
were relying on the Italian navy to do its bidding in the
Medeteranean(sp?) (who were often too intimidated by the RN to leave
docks). The fact that they took on Russia without fully neutralising
it's other threats first (England). The axis supply sources were simply
too spread out, having to rely on oil from the Middle east (Poleski?)
and by losing the desert war against the Commonwealth and US forces they
couldn't open the second front against Russia, which also didn't help.
No matter what path the course of the Me 262 went, it is unlikely that
would've affected the outcome of the war greatly, as you still need fuel
to run it, steel and aluminium to make it and skilled pilots to fly it.
Chris.
The Unexplained
Chris Collins heeft geschreven in bericht
<34A088...@deakin.no.spam.edu.au>...
>>
>> Weren't F-4s easily spotted due to their smoke trails? And also, wasn't
the
>> lack of guns on the F-4 an issue as well?
>
>Excuse me for butting in.
>
> As far as I know all but the photo-recon version of the f-4 had an
>onboard 20mm six barreled rotary cannon. 20mm rounds at 6000 RPM, sheesh
>what else do you want? Six .50 cal in the wings?
No. F-4 B/C/D had NO 20MM gun under the nose. F-4J also had none such
weapon. F-4 E/F/G/EJ do have the 20mm cannon under the lengthened nose. Just
check it. F-4 was a missile platform at the start.
>
>> > Hitler i believed used them as fighter bombers instead of fighters and
>> >in my opinion caused them the war.
>>
>> Yes. Radically hampered production of the Me-262.
>
> ahem, What really lost the war for the Axis Forces was probably several
>factors. Lack of a serious naval presence in the Medeteranean (sp?), or
>anywere else for that matter. shure the Kriegsmarine had its successes
>but really didn't have the strategic presence of the Royal Navy and
>were relying on the Italian navy to do its bidding in the
>Medeteranean(sp?) (who were often too intimidated by the RN to leave
>docks). The fact that they took on Russia without fully neutralising
>it's other threats first (England).
Hitler somehow respected Great Britain and wished peace, not the occupation
or destruction of England. When he realized this was not an option for the
Brits, he decided to invade England.
> The axis supply sources were simply
>too spread out, having to rely on oil from the Middle east (Poleski?)
Ploiesti is in Rumania.
>and by losing the desert war against the Commonwealth and US forces they
>couldn't open the second front against Russia, which also didn't help.
The goal of the Afrika Korps were the Oilfields in Saudi Arabia.
>No matter what path the course of the Me 262 went, it is unlikely that
>would've affected the outcome of the war greatly, as you still need fuel
>to run it, steel and aluminium to make it and skilled pilots to fly it.
>
Jetfuel was being produced by means or artificial fuel, In fact for the
planes, there was sufficient fuel, just lack of trained pilots.
Had the Me-262 entered full service when it was ready, the odds might have
been different, though the simple fact of overwhelming numbers couldn't be
battled.
Dark Knight
In article <882976168.2376....@news.demon.nl>,
herbert.no.s...@herbert.demon.nl says...
>
>
>Chris Collins heeft geschreven in bericht
><34A088...@deakin.no.spam.edu.au>...
>>>
>>> Weren't F-4s easily spotted due to their smoke trails? And also,
wasn't
>the
>>> lack of guns on the F-4 an issue as well?
>>
>>Excuse me for butting in.
>>
>> As far as I know all but the photo-recon version of the f-4 had an
>>onboard 20mm six barreled rotary cannon. 20mm rounds at 6000 RPM,
sheesh
>>what else do you want? Six .50 cal in the wings?
>
>No. F-4 B/C/D had NO 20MM gun under the nose. F-4J also had none such
>weapon. F-4 E/F/G/EJ do have the 20mm cannon under the lengthened nose.
Just
>check it. F-4 was a missile platform at the start.
He's right the F-4 did not have a connon starting out. The U.S.
Government stoped Training there Pilots to Dog fight.. The thinking
behind this was it Radar and with missiles you can shoot from over 5
miles away you don't need to dog fight any more... But then we shot down
one of our own planes and then they sayd that the pilots have to see the
plaine befor they could shoot it down with a missile.. So we whent back
to dog fighting.
Chris Collins
I stand corrected, sorry I should've checked my sources. (however, they
did have acess to "gatling" gun pods, so they didn't completely lack the
ability to "dogfight". gee, I never give up, do I...? :) )
Shall I scuttle on back to my propdriven warbirds?
to the person who originally replied to my post, due to my dodgy server
I have yet recieved your reply and so cannot reply just yet.
Chris.
King1413
Rick was the best ace on the ship. Period.
TristamX
Have you seen all the episodes? Rick even states himself that Max is the best
pilot he's ever seen
Rican9818
>Have you seen all the episodes? Rick even states himself that Max is the best
>pilot he's ever seen
>
>>
>>Rick was the best ace on the ship. Period.
Does this arguing ever strike any of you as *childish*, or are your lives that
boring? Who cares who was the best?! Everybody has a favorite, and you
obviously can't argue that, so why try?
Ted
Deunan
One note of the F-4
A 20mm gun pod was standard equipment on the centerline hardpoint when its
deficiencly in dogfighting was discovered as a stop gap measure and for ground
attack strafing.
Deunan
Lamont Maxwell
Ted, well.... bud.
Do u have any comments available for debate?
Comments that u think are not childish.
I heard someone say.
"... opinions are assholes, everyone has em!"
Die Hard Fan!!
Chris Collins
Tempest wrote:
>
> Ack. alt.tv.robotech doesn't do this newsgroup justice. It should be renamed
> to alt.tv.robotech.and.ww2.
You're no fun at all!
Heh, you don't think we're getting a little side traked do you?
Nah, I didn't think so. (wry smirk)
Rican9818
>Ted, well.... bud.
>Do u have any comments available for debate?
>Comments that u think are not childish.
Nope. You can argue any of the characters until you're blue in the face and you
still won't make the other guy see eye to eye if his favorite character is the
one you're arguing against. I do, however, have a topic for discussion:
Where(if anywhere), do all of you want to see Robotech go from here? And I hope
this doesn't degenerate into a "purist vs mckinneyist" flame war.
Ted
Lane Willard
Seatbelt wrote:
> Francis P Lopez heeft geschreven in bericht ...
> >>You've got a point there, however... all you need to be is a good pilot in
> >a superior machine to beat a superior pilot in an older mech. But I think
> >it would depend more on knowing your mecha and what you can do with it as
> >opposed to just being an ace pilot.
> >
>
> Absolutely NOT true.
Depends, really, on the equipment we are talking about.First of all, I believe
early mecha and late mecha are seperated by
a timespan of about 20 to 30 years.
> A good pilot in a superior machine will LOSE a fight with a superior pilot
> in an older machine.
>
> Proof?
>
> Just look at the pilots being shot down in Me-262 jets in 1944/45 by pilots
> in P-51 Mustang or P-47 Thunderbolts.
>
> The Me-262 was by far superior to either the P-51 or P-47. BUT the pilots in
> the Allied fighter were better trained, had better motivation and were
> veterans, where as the pilots in the Me-262s were mostly pilots that had had
> 5 hours of flying before having to go up against the 8th Air Force.
Pilot training was a factor (actually, in air to air engagements, it is
THEfactor).
However, it should be noted that most of the Me-262s were downed
during takeoff and landing rather than in furball air-to-air engagements.
Also, the P-51, P-47, and Me-262 were basically contemporary aircraft,
so the comparison is flawed. A more apt comparison would be the F-86
Sabre vs an F-4 Phanton, or an F-4 Phanton (early model) vs an F-16
Falcon (late model).
And an aircraft is more than its airframe, especially today. 20 years
of advancaments in weaponry, electronics, and target aquisition make
a huge difference in combat effectiveness.If that greenhorn pilot with 5 hours
of flight time under the belt can
acquire and engage you before you him, you are in trouble even if you
are an expert.
> Even such heralded pilots as Nowotny, Galland, Marseille and who else, were
> shot down in their Me-262s by Allied pilots flying simple propellor planes.
This had more to due with Allied numerical superiority thanAllied technical
superiority. There's only so much you can do against
5 to 1 odds. And these "simple propellor[sic] planes" you are talking
about were hardly such. The P-51 was the premier escort fighter of
WWII. The Me-262, for all its merit, didn't have the ability to escort
bombers from Britain to Germany and back. The Me-262 also didn't
have the 8 .50 cal machine guns that the P-47 had.
> No, a better pilot in a lesser machine will still beat a lesser pilot in a
> superior craft.
>
> Now don't give me bull about setting up an F-22 against a Fokker Dr-1.
Ok, how about an early model F-4 with early model AIM-7's against a latemodel
F-16 with late model AIM-9's? The time span is about right for
early mecha vs late mecha.
- Lane
