What I personally don't like about Misa/Lisa
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Well, several of you have questioned why I don't like this character
very much. Other than the fact that I find her too emotionally extreme
(one minute she's nearly cruel, the other she's depressed), here is
probably the biggest reason: she gets caught up in her jealousy of
Minmay.
"What jealousy?" one might ask. Well, for those who didn't notice, it's
all drawn out for us in episode 28. Remember when she goes through the
photo album? What goes on through her mind? She says something like,
"Why do I feel like strangling her?" That's because she's JEALOUS that
"her man" finds another woman attractive. Oh, as for putting putting
the poster of Minmay upside-down, that was really mature.
In episode 35, I was also annoyed with Lisa when she scolds Rick about
"being more discrete" when he has visitors. What's the meaning of this
statement? I found this line to be merely a way for an angry Lisa Hayes
to release her frustration on Rick. He clearly didn't do anything
wrong; he was simply helping out a friend, and Lisa decided to
eavesdrop. Who he has over is his business and people shouldn't be
listening into conversations through slightly ajar doors.
Another point that I find interesting is how many people are quick to
write or say that Minmay is at fault for continually frustrating
Misa/Lisa's relationship. I find this argument to be completely the
opposite. Minmay already was dating Hikaru/Rick, and his feelings for
her were never completely resolved until the end when they break up/he
dumps her. In terms of butting into others' relationships, anything
that Minmay is guilty of holds true for Misa/Lisa.
Now before anyone decides to post one of those "But Minmay is so and so
worse" replies, I'd request that you don't, because I don't want to have
to respond to 846 of them, and this posting simply reports why I don't
like Misa/Lisa, and Minmay's personal flaws have little to do with it.
Extending on this, I think it would be interesting if Reba West played
the role of Lisa Hayes. How many people would regard Lisa the same?
Just imagine that scene in episode 28 when Lisa's jealous thoughts run
through her head. Now, imagine that Reba West was saying those lines.
How many people would want to kill Lisa? I'd bet that everyone would be
saying that she's such a brat for being jealous and that putting the
poster upside-down was an act of pure immaturity. Of course, no one
thinks that.
If that wasn't enough, imagine that scene when Lisa demands Rick to kiss
her. Once again, imagine that Reba West were doing the voice of Lisa
and ordered Rick to kiss her. How many people would be complaining that
she abused her authority and the situation to get something out of him?
This wasn't the case, as Breetai requested her to do it, but since so
many people interpret whatever Minmay does as negatively as possible, I
figured what if I did the same with Lisa? Or try imagining all the
times that Lisa, while OFF DUTY, puts Rick down, yet with Minmay's
voice. You Minmay-hating Misa/Lisa-loving people would being thinking,
"The b***h!"
Isn't it strange how one flawed character gets hero-worshipped while the
an equally-flawed character is hated?
--
*****
Jeffrey T. Jhee, field general of FMDB
Skip
Correct observations, all of them, although the incongruity of Reba
West playing Lisa Hayes is impossible to imagine, and would never have
happened: the casting was clearly too well thought out.
Regardless, you are correct: Lisa is not much more of an angel than
Minmei. Because she is a withdrawn underdog, and because it *appears*
to be Minmei who leaves Rick for her career as a celebrity, it becomes
all too easy to root for the daydreaming officer and against her
romantic rival. In fact, the bulk of responsibility for the entire mess
falls squarely and solely on the shoulders of our own, dear, Rick.
Does it look like they're all a bit soiled? Good. I long ago tired
of the Manichaean simplicity of "good"="noble"="kind"="deserving" for
any given character, which is why I am unswervingly loyal to Robotech.
Any character may possess any of those traits or their inverses, and we
may simultaneously admire Commander Hayes for her promised devotion,
while despising in her the failure to deal honestly with her intended.
For that very complexity, I *love* Lisa Hayes, as I do Rick and Minmei.
> Isn't it strange how one flawed character gets hero-worshipped while the
> an equally-flawed character is hated?
In the words of Abba: "The winner takes it all."
--Skip
HayesHunter
Dianora2 wrote:
> only base my opinions on Robotech. I also have to say that I think
> part of
> this disagreement will by its very nature be gender-based, as I've
> found that
> men and women usually see Minmei differently. And I'm a woman.
yes, i'd agree with you,it also seems that most of the Minmei fans are
male.
> (I also have no intention of countering an argument by saying, "Well
> Minmei was
> worse!" as that's just silly and illogical as far as I can tell. I'd
> like to
> think that higher education taught me something. ;D)
agreed too, and its no use wasting time on it, it is known how the
Minmei-fansfeel about her and it is also known how the non-Minmei fans
feel too =)
I think that's part of the reason behind this whole thread, "oh look
minmei is getting bashed, so let's turn aruond and bash Lisa!"
> >she gets caught up in her jealousy of Minmay.
>
> A very human attribute.
that's right, ther's no law against jealousy! =)
> Speaking as an intelligent, non-bubbly woman, I
> empathize with Lisa's resentment of Rick being blinded by bubbly,
> air-headed
> types -- and make no mistake, Lisa =does= resent Minmei's bubbliness
> and "movie
> star" charm. It happens all too often in life, let's face it. (This
> is of
> course MY perception of Minmei, not everyone's, but my interpretation
> of Lisa
> leads me to believe that she feels the same way I do.)
agreed again, and what is worse for a level-headed woman than to have to
put up with"less intelligent" women, it's absolutely annoying! I've
experienced those types in school! Sometimes they can be soooo ignorant
that you want to slap them upside the head [but don't do that or you'll
damage what few braincells they have! =)]
Minmei just plain ticked off Lisa, and what's wrong with that? People
can get ticked off by
people others like....can't make a person like someone if they don't
want to. Plain and simple.
> This is perhaps strictly a personal issue -- I empathize with Lisa
> because I think I understand
> where she's coming from. Of course hanging the poster upside wasn't
> mature;
> but what woman could blame her? It's not like she went out and beat
> the girl
> up like they do on Jerry Springer. ;D
hahaha I wouldnt' have mind seeing them in a catfight! Actually there's
a couple of Manga catfights between Lisa [misa] and Minmei in the
Macross books =)
Agreed again, what woman can blame Lisa when it comes to a battle over a
man she loves?
She was only acting out of frustration and frustration is just being
human.
It'd be pretty much the same if the roles were reversed.
> > I found this line to be merely a way for an angry Lisa Hayes
> >to release her frustration on Rick.
>
> Of course it was. She was angry, hurt, and upset. Angry, hurt and
> upset
> people say stupid things sometimes. I don't know anyone who hasn't.
>
yes, and who could blame her for being angry?? I know if I were left for
8 hours while he ran off to see Minmei I'd be pretty ticked too! It'd
been interesting to see what Minmei would've done, probably might've
bombed Rick out and left, but Lisa gave him a chance [until he blew it
for himself of course]
> >Another point that I find interesting is how many people are quick to
>
> >write or say that Minmay is at fault for continually frustrating
> >Misa/Lisa's relationship.
>
> I don't see this at all. Minmei certainly never intentionally set out
> to
> frustrate a relationship -- I'm not convinced Minmei truly believed
> that one existed.
yes, it seemed during the series, Minmei only went to look for Rick when
there was no oneelse around. She didn't really bother with him when
everythign was fine and dandy, only
when she didn't "have anyone else to turn to" that she went to him.
And though I am one of those NON-Minmei fans, i will agree that it was
not her intention
to try and thwart Lisa's relationships, they practically didn't know
each other personally, so I will not blame Minmei....*this* time =) And
Dianora's right, it seems like Minmei didnt'
believe that there was a "real" relationship between she and Rick.
> >I think it would be interesting if Reba West played
> >the role of Lisa Hayes.
>
> The Reba West thing is irrelevant to me; for me, it's the words coming
> out of
> the mouth, not the voice. I have friends with annoying voices but
> that doesn't
> mean I find =them= annoying. <g> This is especially true since I
> first found
> Robotech through the McKinney novels (say what you will, I like them
> <g>),
> where voices don't even exist!
Doesn't matter who played who with what voice, to look at that only is
not the way to watcha show. In "Clash of the Bionoids" Minmei had a much
older voice, but that still didn't swing me towards her side just
because she sounded different, she still was acting like Minmei.
> I'm not sure why the tone of your post is so antagonistic.
that's how it came across to me too, but then again when i first saw the
thread, it reallycame as no surprise to me, and so i just said to
myself, look at the words in the subject header,
"what *I personally*...etc..." and that's just how i took it, one
person's personal opinion isn't gonna sway me to minmei's cause nor is
it going to make me reevaluate my favorite character, Lisa Hayes/Misa
Hayase =)
in this case, "fighting fire with fire" isn't going to help Minmei's
case, might make it worse in
some people's eyes, i know now that I dislike her even more! =)
> Then again, Minmei bashing does abound, granted,
yup, but surely there are reasons behind that =)
> >Isn't it strange how one flawed character gets hero-worshipped while
> the
> >an equally-flawed character is hated?
>
some people prefer to "ignore" a character's flaws while touting and
shouting about another'sit works both ways i do admit =)
but then again, one character *IS* more flawed than another =)
> The same holds true for Robotech. Lisa and Minmei both have flaws,
> but they
> have different kinds of flaws, different kinds of strengths, and
> different
> personalities. Personal taste and human nature dictate that we will
> most
> likely like one and hate the other, as the characters are very
> different.
> Where you fall on that issue is up to you. That's what makes life
> interesting. :)
exactly, its all a matter of "personal" opinion, and there is a
disproportionate distribution of
who likes who, but then that says somethign about the character itself
huh? =)
Macross Grafitti Fan Poll [taken directly from the text]:
Misa Hayase [Lisa Hayes] 2463 votes
Minmei/Minmay 1397 votes
Miriya 1318 votes
the numbers don't lie =)
Jeffrey T. Jhee
> >Another point that I find interesting is how many people are quick to
> >write or say that Minmay is at fault for continually frustrating
> >Misa/Lisa's relationship.
>
> I don't see this at all. Minmei certainly never intentionally set out to
> frustrate a relationship -- I'm not convinced Minmei truly believed that one
> existed.
Thank you! It's about time someone actually used her sense. Except,
I'm a bit confused about the last clause "I'm not convinced Minmei truly
believed that one
existed." Do you mean between her and Rick or Rick and Lisa?
>
> >I think it would be interesting if Reba West played
> >the role of Lisa Hayes.
>
> The Reba West thing is irrelevant to me; for me, it's the words coming out of
> the mouth, not the voice. I have friends with annoying voices but that doesn't
> mean I find =them= annoying. <g> This is especially true since I first found
> Robotech through the McKinney novels (say what you will, I like them <g>),
> where voices don't even exist!
>
Well, I guess one would think differently if she had a preset image of
Minmay and Lisa in her mind before hearing their voices. However, I
still argue that the voices made a world of a difference. Lisa's voice
was much more mellow, whereas Minmay's was squeaky and such. Believe
me, it's easier to get annoyed at someone who's voice is obnoxious and
squeaky than it is to get annoyed at someone who sounded much mellower.
> I'm not sure why the tone of your post is so antagonistic.
Well, it wasn't meant to be. Granted, I never liked Robotech's Lisa.
However, this thread was more of a response to I believe Marathon's
question of why I don't like Lisa/Misa. Also, I thought that some of
the content in this newsgroup was getting really repetitious. In one
week, there was a large handful of "let's give Lisa deity status by
stepping all over Minmay" postings. I figured that I had to find a way
to reverse that trend and defend Minmay. Not that Lisa is scum or
anything, but I believe that it is a fair assessment that Minmay isn't
the only love interest of the Macross hero who could use a few
personality improvements.
Then again, Minmei
> bashing does abound, granted, so I could see a Minmei fan getting ticked off.
Speaking of (well, in this case, writing) ticking a Minmay fan off, what
the hell is up with the people at Gametek? Did anyone see the negative
Minmay comments on the website? Why do they even bother with a
"Love/Hate" section for her bio? She isn't the only character with
flaws. That's discrimination. And as for the question and answer
section that reads "Q: Will Minmay be in the game? A: Yes (sorry)," why
apologize? Do they find something wrong with putting the most important
female character in Macross history in a Macross-ish game? If they do,
then they might as well not even make the game. Let someone who
understands the Macross story (any of them) do it.
HayesHunter
Dianora2 wrote:
> >Minmei just plain ticked off Lisa, and what's wrong with that? People
>
> >can get ticked off by
> >people others like....can't make a person like someone if they don't
> >want to. Plain and simple.
>
> My friends, I think this sums the whole thing up...on both sides. :)
yup, although there seems to be more people against minmei =) me
included =)
> >Actually there's
> >a couple of Manga catfights between Lisa [misa] and Minmei in the
> >Macross books =)
> Why does that not surprise me? <g>
>
too bad they didn't animate them, that woudl be really neat."and in the
blue corner we have our fearless first officer and in the red corner
we have miss macross minmei, ladies and gentlemen forget about the
Zendtraedi, you shall now witness the fight of the century!" =)
> >I know if I were left for
> >8 hours while he ran off to see Minmei I'd be pretty ticked too!
>
> No kidding -- in fact, I think Lisa's biggest flaw is her low
> self-esteem when
> it comes to relationships -- she puts up with a lot more from Rick
> than I ever
> would! :D
>
yes, you hit it dead on, thats one of her biggest flaws which shows her
vulnerability and not that "cold fish" mask. Thats probably the reason
for her "mask", to hide exactly the opposite of the front she puts up to
others, the "old lady" mask. That's one of the reasons why she's myfave,
cuz you saw her go from a "cold fish" to a broken hearted woman, and
that shows dynamicism in her character.
> >some people prefer to "ignore" a character's flaws while touting and
> >shouting about another'sit works both ways i do admit =)
>
> True...for me, though, Lisa's flaws are part of what make her so
> interesting!
>
exactly! i agree! and the fact that you can see her struggle with
herself makes her character, to me, all the more interesting =)
> >Macross Grafitti Fan Poll [taken directly from the text]:
> >Misa Hayase [Lisa Hayes] 2463 votes
> >Minmei/Minmay 1397 votes
> >Miriya 1318 votes
>
> Interesting...where is this from, exactly?
its from a Macross book called "best hit series: Macross grafitti" it
was published in
japan in 1983, i got it through Books Nippan probably about 10 years ago
:O
i don't know if its in print anymore, its a very nice book, even has a
special "Misa Hayase"
photo album in teh back which was illustrated by one of the Macross
animators. It counts
down the top 10 Mr. and Miss. Macross as voted by fans in two japanese
cities [i *think* Tokyo and Osaka] =) I love that book =) now i have to
brush up on my Japanese to try and translate it =)
Dianora2
Let me preface this by saying all of my comments are based on "Robotech," not
"Macross." Just wanted to make clear where my perceptions are coming from, and
any discrepancies between Robotech and Macross are irrelevant to me, as I can
only base my opinions on Robotech. I also have to say that I think part of
this disagreement will by its very nature be gender-based, as I've found that
along... <g>
(I also have no intention of countering an argument by saying, "Well Minmei was
worse!" as that's just silly and illogical as far as I can tell. I'd like to
think that higher education taught me something. ;D)
>she gets caught up in her jealousy of
>Minmay.
A very human attribute. Speaking as an intelligent, non-bubbly woman, I
empathize with Lisa's resentment of Rick being blinded by bubbly, air-headed
types -- and make no mistake, Lisa =does= resent Minmei's bubbliness and "movie
star" charm. It happens all too often in life, let's face it. (This is of
course MY perception of Minmei, not everyone's, but my interpretation of Lisa
leads me to believe that she feels the same way I do.) This is perhaps
strictly a personal issue -- I empathize with Lisa because I think I understand
where she's coming from. Of course hanging the poster upside wasn't mature;
but what woman could blame her? It's not like she went out and beat the girl
up like they do on Jerry Springer. ;D
> I found this line to be merely a way for an angry Lisa Hayes
>to release her frustration on Rick.
Of course it was. She was angry, hurt, and upset. Angry, hurt and upset
people say stupid things sometimes. I don't know anyone who hasn't.
>Another point that I find interesting is how many people are quick to
>write or say that Minmay is at fault for continually frustrating
>Misa/Lisa's relationship.
I don't see this at all. Minmei certainly never intentionally set out to
frustrate a relationship -- I'm not convinced Minmei truly believed that one
existed.
>I think it would be interesting if Reba West played
>the role of Lisa Hayes.
The Reba West thing is irrelevant to me; for me, it's the words coming out of
the mouth, not the voice. I have friends with annoying voices but that doesn't
mean I find =them= annoying. <g> This is especially true since I first found
Robotech through the McKinney novels (say what you will, I like them <g>),
where voices don't even exist!
I'm not sure why the tone of your post is so antagonistic. Then again, Minmei
bashing does abound, granted, so I could see a Minmei fan getting ticked off.
I'm a fan of a character on "General Hospital" that other fans are referring to
as "Satan," and let me tell you, it ticks me off! <g>
>Isn't it strange how one flawed character gets hero-worshipped while the
>an equally-flawed character is hated?
I think what it comes down to is that all of the characters in Robotech have
their flaws, which is what makes them human, which is why we understand/relate
to them so much. Now, all human beings have certain flaws and character
traits, yet we like some people and dislike others. Why is that? Personal
preference as to the qualities we like or dislike in others -- otherwise
everyone in the world would be friends with everybody else!
The same holds true for Robotech. Lisa and Minmei both have flaws, but they
have different kinds of flaws, different kinds of strengths, and different
personalities. Personal taste and human nature dictate that we will most
likely like one and hate the other, as the characters are very different.
Where you fall on that issue is up to you. That's what makes life
interesting. :)
--Dia
~~http://members.aol.com/dianora2/main.htm~~
Fanfic for X-Files, Star Wars, Robotech
Dianora2
>Minmei just plain ticked off Lisa, and what's wrong with that? People
>can get ticked off by
>people others like....can't make a person like someone if they don't
>want to. Plain and simple.
My friends, I think this sums the whole thing up...on both sides. :)
>Actually there's
>a couple of Manga catfights between Lisa [misa] and Minmei in the
>Macross books =)
Why does that not surprise me? <g>
>I know if I were left for
>8 hours while he ran off to see Minmei I'd be pretty ticked too!
No kidding -- in fact, I think Lisa's biggest flaw is her low self-esteem when
it comes to relationships -- she puts up with a lot more from Rick than I ever
would! :D
>so i just said to
>myself, look at the words in the subject header,
>"what *I personally*...etc..." and that's just how i took it, one
>person's personal opinion
Good point...
>some people prefer to "ignore" a character's flaws while touting and
>shouting about another'sit works both ways i do admit =)
True...for me, though, Lisa's flaws are part of what make her so interesting!
:)
>Macross Grafitti Fan Poll [taken directly from the text]:
>Misa Hayase [Lisa Hayes] 2463 votes
>Minmei/Minmay 1397 votes
>Miriya 1318 votes
Interesting...where is this from, exactly?
--Dia
X-Phile/Shipper ~ Cafe USTer ~ XF-BAJSFG Minister of Erotic Fan Fiction
Propoganda ~ Star Warsian/Lando Killer #222 ~ Robotecher/Professional Minmei
Hater ~ J&Visionary/Keeper of V's Lawn Furniture ~ E&Supporter/Keeper of The
Sarcasm
Jeffrey T. Jhee
HayesHunter wrote:
>
> Dianora2 wrote:
>
> > only base my opinions on Robotech. I also have to say that I think
> > part of
> > this disagreement will by its very nature be gender-based, as I've
> > found that
> > men and women usually see Minmei differently. And I'm a woman.
>
> yes, i'd agree with you,it also seems that most of the Minmei fans are
> male.
>
> > (I also have no intention of countering an argument by saying, "Well
> > Minmei was
> > worse!" as that's just silly and illogical as far as I can tell. I'd
> > like to
> > think that higher education taught me something. ;D)
>
> agreed too, and its no use wasting time on it, it is known how the
> Minmei-fansfeel about her and it is also known how the non-Minmei fans
> feel too =)
>
> I think that's part of the reason behind this whole thread, "oh look
> minmei is getting bashed, so let's turn aruond and bash Lisa!"
>
Someone asked my why I don't like Misa/Lisa, and this thread was my
answer. If you would read the original post, notice that there are no
"Because of such and such, Minmay is better than Misa/Lisa." No,
because I simply wrote down why I don't like Misa/Lisa and fail to see
why many are quick to put Minmay down and praise Lisa.
Nope, this isn't some hopeless crusade to convert all the Minmay
haters. However, I do have another point to bring about.
You are very quick to defend Misa/Lisa's faults, which is okay with me
(and you wouldn't be deserving of the name HayesHunter if you didn't).
On four or five different occasions above, you responded to a flaw of
Misa/Lisa's with a "well who could blame her...?" sort of comment.
Then, on one occasion you continued with "probably might've
> bombed Rick out and left, but Lisa gave him a chance." This pattern is my frustration. Many Robotech fans are very quick to notice all of Minmay's faults and rally against her. However, when one of Lisa's faults are brought to attention, it's all of the sudden forgiveable and seem to make her a better person. I just don't get it.
> > >Isn't it strange how one flawed character gets hero-worshipped while
> > the
> > >an equally-flawed character is hated?
> >
>
> some people prefer to "ignore" a character's flaws while touting and
> shouting about another'sit works both ways i do admit =)
> but then again, one character *IS* more flawed than another =)
>
Tell me, which flaws are worse, being spoiled, whiny, and selfish or
being bitter, taking personal frustration out on other people, and
jealous? I'm not saying either are worse, just that they both aren't
good.
> > The same holds true for Robotech. Lisa and Minmei both have flaws,
> > but they
> > have different kinds of flaws, different kinds of strengths, and
> > different
> > personalities. Personal taste and human nature dictate that we will
> > most
> > likely like one and hate the other, as the characters are very
> > different.
> > Where you fall on that issue is up to you. That's what makes life
> > interesting. :)
>
> exactly, its all a matter of "personal" opinion, and there is a
> disproportionate distribution of
> who likes who, but then that says somethign about the character itself
> huh? =)
>
> Macross Grafitti Fan Poll [taken directly from the text]:
> Misa Hayase [Lisa Hayes] 2463 votes
> Minmei/Minmay 1397 votes
> Miriya 1318 votes
>
> the numbers don't lie =)
I'll accept that contest result. However, as a social science major
wannabe, I also must point out that there are more than 5178 Macross
fans, and checking by how these were tallied unscientifically, the
results is not necessarily indicative of what the consensus is among
Macross fans. For all we know, Milia has Minmay and Misa licked badly.
Who knows, maybe Laplamiz (Azonia) has everyone beat.
Huy Nguyen
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
>
> > I don't see this at all. Minmei certainly never intentionally set out to
> > frustrate a relationship -- I'm not convinced Minmei truly believed that one
> > existed.
>
> believed that one
> existed." Do you mean between her and Rick or Rick and Lisa?
I believe this is referring to the relationship between Rick and Lisa.
This actually brings up an interesting point; how would Minmei have
responded had she *known* Rick and Lisa were involved in some way. Her
dealings with Lisa were minimal at best. I can think of five occasions
where they intereacted before To the Stars:
1. The Sourpuss incident.
2. Ceremony after Rick, Lisa, Max, and Ben escaped the Zentraedi.
3. Kyle's introduction.
4. She runs into Rick and Lisa while they're walking along.
5. After Rick rescued Minmei and Kyle.
I can see how she might see a friendship between the two but nothing to
really say, "I'm competing with this woman for this man's affection."
To her credit, she tried to be graceful in the end when she realized she
had lost Rick.
> Well, it wasn't meant to be. Granted, I never liked Robotech's Lisa.
> However, this thread was more of a response to I believe Marathon's
> question of why I don't like Lisa/Misa. Also, I thought that some of
> the content in this newsgroup was getting really repetitious. In one
> week, there was a large handful of "let's give Lisa deity status by
> stepping all over Minmay" postings. I figured that I had to find a way
> to reverse that trend and defend Minmay. Not that Lisa is scum or
> anything, but I believe that it is a fair assessment that Minmay isn't
> the only love interest of the Macross hero who could use a few
> personality improvements.
Speaking of personality improvements, I can't help but note how people
are pointing out the flaws in Lisa and Minmei. What about the third
person in this triangle? The biggest d*** move of all was Rick ditching
Lisa to see Minmei when the former two had a date settled. When things
got out of control with either of the two, Mr. Hunter either got angry
or highly cynical and sarcastic.
After watching the series again, my brother and I have labeled him
"Wrong Way Rick." It just seems that in every single social situation,
he does the wrong thing.
Huy Nguyen
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
>
> HayesHunter wrote:
>
> > Macross Grafitti Fan Poll [taken directly from the text]:
> > Misa Hayase [Lisa Hayes] 2463 votes
> > Minmei/Minmay 1397 votes
> > Miriya 1318 votes
> >
> > the numbers don't lie =)
>
> I'll accept that contest result. However, as a social science major
> wannabe, I also must point out that there are more than 5178 Macross
> fans, and checking by how these were tallied unscientifically, the
> results is not necessarily indicative of what the consensus is among
> Macross fans. For all we know, Milia has Minmay and Misa licked badly.
> Who knows, maybe Laplamiz (Azonia) has everyone beat.
I tend to have little faith in the general public myself. I had so much
faith in humanity until Ace Ventura: Pet Detective became the number
one movie in America. After that, public opinion holds very little
weight. 8^P
Both Lisa and Minmei and wonderfully conceived characters. The fact
that we can have these discussions are a testament ot that. To
appreciate it, I think we need to look beyond their surfaces; especially
Minmei.
I think Minmei is great... when you have her attention. That more than
anything was the source of Rick's frustration. I don't think anyone can
question her devotion when she sets her mind to something. The problem
is keeping it there. 8^)
She * always * means well. People point out that she's quick to run to
Rick when she's got a problem but on the flip side, her feelings for him
also came out when his situation took a turn for the worse ( Zentraedi
capture, getting shot down ). The honest effort is there and that has
to be respected if nothing else. She might not always say the right
things but this isn't a Hollywood script. 8^)
Lisa on the other hand by mere virtue of * her * career choice is
inherently more focused. Her level-headedness is very appealing. Yes,
Lisa took out her frustrations on Rick ( I find it funny how he's guilty
of doing the same thing to both Minmei and Lisa yet he's escaped any
rebuke ) but in the end, she presents a more stable persona than Minmei.
Frankly, they both appeal to different tastes and the argument as to who
is better simply highlights a personal preference rather than resolve
the issue in question.
Regards,
Huy Nguyen
HayesHunter
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
> No, no, no, no, no. That wasn't the reason why I started this thread.
really?? =)
> Nope, this isn't some hopeless crusade to convert all the Minmay
> haters. However, I do have another point to bring about.
does sound like it at times though, which is fine, you have every
rightto try and make us non-minmei lovers change, not that it will work
but you have the right to try, this is a free country =)
> You are very quick to defend Misa/Lisa's faults, which is okay with me
>
> (and you wouldn't be deserving of the name HayesHunter if you didn't).
hehehe thanks, i was a little reluctant to get into this thread
anyways,knowing immediately what it would be about
> On four or five different occasions above, you responded to a flaw of
> Misa/Lisa's with a "well who could blame her...?" sort of comment.
yes I did, see you guys see it differntly cuz you are just that,
guys.You cant tell me you wouldn't be upset if some girl left you
waiting for
her for 8 hours?
> Then, on one occasion you continued with "probably might've
> > bombed Rick out and left, but Lisa gave him a chance." This pattern
> is my frustration.
well cuz that's consistant with Minmei's character.take a look at the
DYRL movie script when both women realize they have [thought]
they'd lost the man to the other.....
MINMAY: That has nothing to do with us at all. Why aren't we two the
only
ones in the world? I wish everyone will die except you and me!
[granted, she came to her sense later, but Hikaru/Rick had to slap it
into her]
MISA: (Bitterly sarcastic) Hurry and go after her. You two were
just reunited. Don't hesitate because of me. It's more
miserable to be receiving sympathy from you.
[or if you go by the COTB translation, "Hurry go after her.....A happy
reunion, don't waste
your pity on me...."]
> Many Robotech fans are very quick to notice all of Minmay's faults and
> rally against her.
because they are more obvious =)
> However, when one of Lisa's faults are brought to attention, it's all
> of the sudden forgiveable and seem to make her a better person. I
> just don't get it.
you see, Minmei's faults are more self centered, like being whiny, she's
whiny cuzshe can't get what she wants. Whereas Lisa gets depressed
though its selfdirected, it
is out of hurt. Which one are you going to scold? the whiner or the
depressed person?
> Tell me, which flaws are worse, being spoiled, whiny, and selfish or
> being bitter, taking personal frustration out on other people, and
> jealous? I'm not saying either are worse, just that they both aren't
> good.
ahh see my point right before this. You also seem to forget that LIsa
does notlash out as much as you seem to make her out to be. in the last
episode she
is going to give Rick up, whereas Minmei won't let him go and is trying
vainly
to make him stay with her. And you seem to miss that Lisa put up with a
LOT.
It seems she towards the end she turned her frustration more towards
herself, she didn't become more snappy at the bridge crew, but rather
went
towards self destruction [drinking, wanting to resign, etc]. And if she
turned
some anger towards Rick, then you can't say he didn't deserve some of
it,
he acted like a total jerk at times, treating her like dirt. You expect
her to put
up with that with a smile on her face??
Episode 33, she could've bombed him out when he came and yelled at her
there in front of Vanessa, but she didn't, instead she turned her
frustration
inward and got drunk at Claudia's.
> > Macross Grafitti Fan Poll [taken directly from the text]:
> > Misa Hayase [Lisa Hayes] 2463 votes
> > Minmei/Minmay 1397 votes
> > Miriya 1318 votes
> >
> > the numbers don't lie =)
>
> I'll accept that contest result. However, as a social science major
> wannabe, I also must point out that there are more than 5178 Macross
> fans, and checking by how these were tallied unscientifically, the
> results is not necessarily indicative of what the consensus is among
> Macross fans. For all we know, Milia has Minmay and Misa licked
> badly.
> Who knows, maybe Laplamiz (Azonia) has everyone beat.
hahahah and I'm taking a Statistics class right now, we're learning
hypothesis testing, i was thinking of checking these results claims.
the route coudl go, "There is insufficient evidence to reject the claim
that..."
or "There is sufficient evidence to reject the claim that...."or
"there is sufficient evidence to support the claim that...." or
"there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that..."
ask someone in a Statistics class. though i do not have enough data
variables, by looking at the large gap betwen 1st and 2nd that's pretty
big.
if you want the full results, here they are straight out of Macross
Grafitti book:
Miss Macross/Mr. Macross
1. Misa Hayase [Lisa] 2463 votes Hikaru Ichijo [Rick] 957 votes
2. Minmei 1397 votes Max 843 votes
3. Miriya 1318 votes [Khyron] 562 votes
4. Claudia 527 votes Roy 465 votes
5. Vanessa 504 votes Karl Riber 323 votes
6. Sammie 496 votes Capt. Gloval 301 votes
7. [Azonia] 342 votes Lynn Kyle 277
8. Kim 327 votes Rico Konda Bron 260
followd by Rick hunter's nurse, Ben, Breetai, and those
pinpoint barrier operators.
interesting, I wonder why Kim was so low on the list :/
oh and as for the voice thing, Sammie has that same "voice type"
as Minmei, yet I don't find her annoying =)
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Huy Nguyen wrote:
> I tend to have little faith in the general public myself.
I read you.
> Lisa on the other hand by mere virtue of * her * career choice is
> inherently more focused. Her level-headedness is very appealing. Yes,
> Lisa took out her frustrations on Rick ( I find it funny how he's guilty
> of doing the same thing to both Minmei and Lisa yet he's escaped any
> rebuke )
Hmmm... I guess that if I want to keep my role as general of FMDB, I
must do something about Rick Hunter and Hikaru Ichijyo. I hate it when
men play women. Makes things harder for everyone.
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Claudia took care of that. What are friends for?
> > Tell me, which flaws are worse, being spoiled, whiny, and selfish or
> > being bitter, taking personal frustration out on other people, and
> > jealous? I'm not saying either are worse, just that they both aren't
> > good.
>
> ahh see my point right before this. You also seem to forget that LIsa
> does notlash out as much as you seem to make her out to be. in the last
> episode she
> is going to give Rick up, whereas Minmei won't let him go and is trying
> vainly
> to make him stay with her. And you seem to miss that Lisa put up with a
> LOT.
> It seems she towards the end she turned her frustration more towards
> herself, she didn't become more snappy at the bridge crew, but rather
> went
> towards self destruction [drinking, wanting to resign, etc]. And if she
> turned
> some anger towards Rick, then you can't say he didn't deserve some of
> it,
> he acted like a total jerk at times, treating her like dirt. You expect
> her to put
> up with that with a smile on her face??
Nope. I'm not too fond of men who play women like that.
> Episode 33, she could've bombed him out when he came and yelled at her
> there in front of Vanessa, but she didn't, instead she turned her
> frustration
> inward and got drunk at Claudia's.
>
I'll admit this much: she's much maturer, even though she's only a few
years older. She definitely handles personal trauma better than Minmay
(which explains the above DYRL sequence).
That's it, these results go out the door immediately. Why? Because, if
Lynn Kaifun (Kyle) can amass that many votes, then it has to be
corrupted. :-) Same thing goes with Kim. How did Laplamiz (Azonia) get
more votes?
> oh and as for the voice thing, Sammie has that same "voice type"
> as Minmei, yet I don't find her annoying =)
Probably 'cuz her role is practically insignificant in comparison.
Skip
Huy Nguyen wrote:
[cut]
> Speaking of personality improvements, I can't help but note how people
> are pointing out the flaws in Lisa and Minmei. What about the third
> person in this triangle?
Like I said in my first (and completely overlooked!) response to
Jeffrey T. Jhee:
> In fact, the bulk of responsibility for the entire mess
> falls squarely and solely on the shoulders of our own, dear, Rick.
> Does it look like they're all a bit soiled? Good. I long ago tired
> of the Manichaean simplicity of "good"="noble"="kind"="deserving" for
> any given character, which is why I am unswervingly loyal to Robotech.
> Any character may possess any of those traits or their inverses, and we
> may simultaneously admire Commander Hayes for her promised devotion,
> while despising in her the failure to deal honestly with her intended.
> For that very complexity, I *love* Lisa Hayes, as I do Rick and Minmei.
--Skip
Skip
Dianora2 wrote:
[cut]
> No kidding -- in fact, I think Lisa's biggest flaw is her low self-esteem when
> it comes to relationships -- she puts up with a lot more from Rick than I ever
> would! :D
> True...for me, though, Lisa's flaws are part of what make her so interesting!
> :)
Right . . . . [comical double-take] Didn't I just say that yesterday?
--Skip
Marathon
OOGA CHACA, OOGA,OOGA,OOGA CHACA.
There Jeff I just finished placing a curse on you. Even as I write this,
hundreds or thousands of Misa/Lisa's have picked up your scent and are
tracking you with the purpose of hauling you to the altar.
Better erect a Minmei defense barrier, dude.
Marathon.
Love may come and go but our memories of being in love and making love
remain with us until the end.
HayesHunter
hahaha this is fun, I'm glad i took this thread off "ignore" =)
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
> > is out of hurt. Which one are you going to scold? the whiner or the
> > depressed person?
> Actually, it really got to the point where Lisa had to be scolded, but
>
> Claudia took care of that. What are friends for?
yes but you have to "scold" a depressed person and a whiny person
differntly.
In Lisa's state of mind at the end of the series, I was a little bit
afraid [when i first saw
it wayyyyyyyyy back in 1985] she might kill herself or something. Think
about how
you would rebuke a friend who is severely depressed compared to a friend
who is
being whiny and bratty.
> Nope. I'm not too fond of men who play women like that.
yes, so then we might also point the finger of blame at Rick too
huh???since he spent a lot of time keeping BOTH of them hanging instead
of
letting one go, like Vince Gill sings it, "Which bridge to cross and
which bridge to burn."
> I'll admit this much: she's much maturer, even though she's only a few
>
> years older. She definitely handles personal trauma better than
> Minmay
> (which explains the above DYRL sequence).
yes, she is more mature, and i will say that it is not totally Minmei's
fault that sheis not as mature, but after so long had passed surely she
might stop to thing about it.
> That's it, these results go out the door immediately. Why? Because,
> if
> Lynn Kaifun (Kyle) can amass that many votes, then it has to be
> corrupted. :-) Same thing goes with Kim. How did Laplamiz (Azonia)
> get
> more votes?
nope, let me point out somethign from an issue synopsis i found in
"Return toMacross" issue 19 by Academy comics....
"Robotech: Return to Macross #20. Starring the gal everyone's been
asking to
see more of.....Lisa Hayes" check the comic if you don't believe me.
so then you mean to say that Academy's letters from people wanting to
see more of Lisa
Hayes is just as in valid as the Macross poll???
ahh see,now you are taking a swipe at Lynn Kyle [Kaifun]? I wonder what
his fans would say?? probably stick up for him the way you are sticking
up for minmei and the way the Hayes fans stick up for Lisa, right???
> > oh and as for the voice thing, Sammie has that same "voice type"
> > as Minmei, yet I don't find her annoying =)
>
> Probably 'cuz her role is practically insignificant in comparison.
>
nope, she had enough speaking parts, she's not that minor a character.
actually, its too bad they ddint' have more of the Trio, even
Sammie [minmei-like voice included]. They were good support characters
=)
one more thing on "Misa" she is even less cold in Macross than she is
in Robotech, but when you compare them you use the Robotech scenes
to make your case against "lisa" but then soemtimes,use the Macross
scenes to
make your argument for Minmei. Misa's not as cold as she is in
Robotech, here's a little scene I managed to translate from my "Macross
Classic" CD,...it appears that Hikaru was off somewhere trying to find
Minmei while on patrol or somethign like that, anyways he gets a call
from Misa and she doesn't give him a tongue lashing. She even playfully
teases him about being on a date =) then when he replies, "Masaka!"
meaning "impossible" she replies with "Jodan yo!" meaning, "just joking"
or "It was a joke!"
anyways, you are entitled to like and defend Minmei just as much
as I am entitled to admire and defend Lisa/Misa =)
still though, my point in all of this is that there is a greater
proportion
of people who prefer Lisa/Misa over Minmei. =)
HayesHunter
Huy Nguyen wrote:
> 4. She runs into Rick and Lisa while they're walking along.
yup, here is a difference again between she and Lisa.Minmei sees them
together and [i still can't tell if was intentional or not]
lingers long enough for Rick to hear her, and of course he chases after
her and of course lisa chases after him [talk about triangle!]
anyways, in "season's greetings" when Lisa finds Minmei at
Rick's house, she doesn't run in there and start crying in front of
them,
she closes the door and leaves.
> To her credit, she tried to be graceful in the end when she realized
> she
> had lost Rick.
yes granted too, but then I'm not sure she really ever lovedhim as much
as he loved her? so for Lisa to lose Rick would be
more painful for Lisa than it would be painful for Minmei to lose rick,
since she never really committed to him?
> > week, there was a large handful of "let's give Lisa deity status by
> > stepping all over Minmay" postings.
well then don't read them if they make you mad =) find someonewho likes
Minmay and discuss her with that person, just as
I found someone who likes Lisa and Rick, thats what we do
in email exchanges. =)
> >I figured that I had to find a way
> > to reverse that trend and defend Minmay. Not that Lisa is scum or
> > anything, but I believe that it is a fair assessment that Minmay
> isn't
> > the only love interest of the Macross hero who could use a few
> > personality improvements.
I personally never claimed or said that Lisa was perfect, in fact,its
her imperfections that is part of the reason why i like her character,
cuz
its easier to empathize with a depressed person than a bratty type
person.
> Speaking of personality improvements, I can't help but note how people
>
> are pointing out the flaws in Lisa and Minmei. What about the third
> person in this triangle?
the one and only Rick Hunter/Hikaru Ichijo. Blind as a bat, he is! =)
> The biggest d*** move of all was Rick ditching
> Lisa to see Minmei when the former two had a date settled.
that was one of THE worst things he ever did.its was bad enough to stand
up Lisa, but then the fool doesn't
even have enough sense to get rid of the evidence [the scarf
minmei gave him]!
> When things got out of control with either of the two, Mr. Hunter
> either got angry
> or highly cynical and sarcastic.
and, talking about "taking out frustration" he often took itout on Lisa
most of the time....
> After watching the series again, my brother and I have labeled him
> "Wrong Way Rick." It just seems that in every single social
> situation,
> he does the wrong thing.
yup, except finally coming to his senses at the end =)he is not that
mixed-up in DYRL, which is why everytime
I get mad at him, i remember how he was a little bit
more mature in DYRL.
=)
timber
HayesHunter wrote:
>
<snip>
> > You are very quick to defend Misa/Lisa's faults, which is okay with me
> >
> > (and you wouldn't be deserving of the name HayesHunter if you didn't).
>
> hehehe thanks, i was a little reluctant to get into this thread
> anyways,knowing immediately what it would be about
>
You and me both.
> > On four or five different occasions above, you responded to a flaw of
> > Misa/Lisa's with a "well who could blame her...?" sort of comment.
>
> yes I did, see you guys see it differntly cuz you are just that,
> guys.You cant tell me you wouldn't be upset if some girl left you
> waiting for
> her for 8 hours?
>
Uhm.. Just cuz were guys doesn't mean we see anything differently. At least
not all of us. And I may be upset I may not. It depends on *why* she left me
waiting for 8 hours. Not because she did leave me. I can't fault Lisa for
being upset with Rick for not going with her to see Minmei instead. But I
would find her a little harder to cope with if she got upset with him for
making her wait for 8 hours if he got into a car accident and had to be
rushed to the hospital (as Minmei probably would have. (Not to bash her just
stating a note that I've made.))
> > Then, on one occasion you continued with "probably might've
> > > bombed Rick out and left, but Lisa gave him a chance." This pattern
> > is my frustration.
>
> well cuz that's consistant with Minmei's character.take a look at the
> DYRL movie script when both women realize they have [thought]
> they'd lost the man to the other.....
>
> MINMAY: That has nothing to do with us at all. Why aren't we two the
> only
> ones in the world? I wish everyone will die except you and me!
> [granted, she came to her sense later, but Hikaru/Rick had to slap it
> into her]
>
> MISA: (Bitterly sarcastic) Hurry and go after her. You two were
> just reunited. Don't hesitate because of me. It's more
> miserable to be receiving sympathy from you.
> [or if you go by the COTB translation, "Hurry go after her.....A happy
> reunion, don't waste
> your pity on me...."]
>
And this by any guy at least according to some standards that seem to have
been raised around here.. Would have been ruled as "typical girls
over-reacting" now in Minmei's case it most likely is a girl over-reacting..
However Lisa also reacts with a more "male" trait. She bases hers more on
logic than on emotion. Either way were I to get a response like this out of
a lady I would be hesitant to go with Minmei merely because her wish that
she and Rick were the only ones in the world. That seems very childish to me
and I personally have not need nor any desire to be around someone with a
childish attitude. Vengeance is one thing. Childish-ness (is that a word? :p
) is another. (And no age doesn't not matter to the degree of childish-ness.
To quote a song: "Some people grow up and some people just grow.")
> > Many Robotech fans are very quick to notice all of Minmay's faults and
> > rally against her.
>
> because they are more obvious =)
Much more obvious. I find Lisa's reactions more palateable than Minmei's
childish "everything has to be mine unless there's something better"
attitude towards Rick. Now were I not in the same style situation myself I
might possibly have another opinion but living daily in situations where
NO-ONE notices you (like Rick and Lisa) until your the only thing/person
left around kind of biases your opinion I guess you'd say.
>
> > However, when one of Lisa's faults are brought to attention, it's all
> > of the sudden forgiveable and seem to make her a better person. I
> > just don't get it.
>
> you see, Minmei's faults are more self centered, like being whiny, she's
> whiny cuzshe can't get what she wants. Whereas Lisa gets depressed
> though its selfdirected, it
> is out of hurt. Which one are you going to scold? the whiner or the
> depressed person?
>
Probably the whiner.. Just to get them to shut up and teach them a lesson. I
do this regularly with people that whine around me. The ONLY person that you
can rely on 100% of the time is yourself. And if they start whining I just
leave them to do it themselves. Otherwise they'll never realize what they
can do on their own.
I can't help but agree.
I find that Lisa is more palateable in her attitude (and my resulting in
ability to easily handle Minmei) merely because she acts more grown up.
Acting much more adult.. She realizes the reality that Rick isn't hers.. And
in the end gives up. Something that is very human to do. Where as Minmei
like the horse that runs back into the ablaze barn is just TO STUPID TO GIVE
UP THE GHOST. I've met girls like Minmei and believe me they are NOT people
that I enjoy being around. In fact the last one did it so often (acted like
Minmei) that I almost did slap her up side the head. I guess I'm just too
much of a uhm.. (Well depending on how you look at it) I'm too much of a
gentleman or too much of a chauvanist to have done anything about it.. I
also at this point find it interesting that most of my friends consider me
more of a Roy Fokker than a Rick Hunter.. But that's a side note (although
in the episode Rainy Night when Claudia is talking about Roy's and her
meeting and what he said to her the one night in front of her apartment when
they re-met after a year, his statement sounded EXACTLY like me. ("I just
need someone that I can share my deepest feelings with, I'm sorry
Claudia."))
Anyways that's just my $.25
~Timber
Jeffrey T. Jhee
Marathon wrote:
>
> OOGA CHACA, OOGA,OOGA,OOGA CHACA.
>
> There Jeff I just finished placing a curse on you. Even as I write this,
> hundreds or thousands of Misa/Lisa's have picked up your scent and are
> tracking you with the purpose of hauling you to the altar.
>
> Better erect a Minmei defense barrier, dude.
>
that Misa/Lisa fans are heathens, but if some of you are into curses and
other hocus pocus...) and we are armed and willing to use lethal force.
And was the adapted title of this thread directed at me? At this rate,
no woman in her right mind would marry me!!!
--
*****
Jeffrey T. Jhee, field general of FMDB and non-believer of the power of
Pagan Rituals
Jeffrey T. Jhee
> yes, so then we might also point the finger of blame at Rick too
> of
> letting one go, like Vince Gill sings it, "Which bridge to cross and
> which bridge to burn."
>
> >
> > years older. She definitely handles personal trauma better than
> > Minmay
> > (which explains the above DYRL sequence).
>
> fault that sheis not as mature, but after so long had passed surely she
> might stop to thing about it.
>
> > if
> > Lynn Kaifun (Kyle) can amass that many votes, then it has to be
> > corrupted. :-) Same thing goes with Kim. How did Laplamiz (Azonia)
> > get
> > more votes?
>
> "Return toMacross" issue 19 by Academy comics....
> "Robotech: Return to Macross #20. Starring the gal everyone's been
> asking to
> see more of.....Lisa Hayes" check the comic if you don't believe me.
>
> so then you mean to say that Academy's letters from people wanting to
> see more of Lisa
> Hayes is just as in valid as the Macross poll???
>
the consensus opinions of Robotech fans varies from Macross, so it's
hard to compare.
As for throwing the poll out, it was a joke. Just makin' fun of the
fact that Kaifun got that many votes.
> ahh see,now you are taking a swipe at Lynn Kyle [Kaifun]? I wonder what
> his fans would say?? probably stick up for him the way you are sticking
> up for minmei and the way the Hayes fans stick up for Lisa, right???
>
Kyle was the one of the most one-dimensional characters in that show.
Whereas many villains are led into villainry (did I make this word up?)
by hardening pasts, he brings himself upon it with hypocrisy,
self-righteousness, and intolerance. He's a villain, and I challenge
all the Kyle defenders to deny it.
> > > oh and as for the voice thing, Sammie has that same "voice type"
> > > as Minmei, yet I don't find her annoying =)
> >
> > Probably 'cuz her role is practically insignificant in comparison.
> >
>
> nope, she had enough speaking parts, she's not that minor a character.
>
She's still insignificant in comparison. I mena, if she was never on
the show, it wouldn't have affected the story very much, would it?
> actually, its too bad they ddint' have more of the Trio, even
> Sammie [minmei-like voice included]. They were good support characters
> =)
>
> one more thing on "Misa" she is even less cold in Macross than she is
> in Robotech, but when you compare them you use the Robotech scenes
> to make your case against "lisa" but then soemtimes,use the Macross
> scenes to
> make your argument for Minmei. Misa's not as cold as she is in
> Robotech, here's a little scene I managed to translate from my "Macross
> Classic" CD
I confess, you caught onto my tactics. Better rework strategy with the
other generals. Most astute there, HayesHunter. I salute you.
Seriously, I don't mind Misa as much as Lisa, for the exact reasons as
you pointed out. In fact, it would have been more appropriate to leave
the Misa part out of the thread title and just direct it against Lisa
Hayes.
,...it appears that Hikaru was off somewhere trying to find
> Minmei while on patrol or somethign like that, anyways he gets a call
> from Misa and she doesn't give him a tongue lashing. She even playfully
> teases him about being on a date =) then when he replies, "Masaka!"
> meaning "impossible" she replies with "Jodan yo!" meaning, "just joking"
>
> or "It was a joke!"
>
Where did you get this? Aww, since it's in Japanese, it wouldn't do me
much good anyway.
--
*****
Jeffrey T. Jhee, field general of FMDB, devious little plotter, and
Kaifun/Kyle hater
Huy Nguyen
HayesHunter wrote:
>
> Huy Nguyen wrote:
>
> > 4. She runs into Rick and Lisa while they're walking along.
>
> yup, here is a difference again between she and Lisa.Minmei sees them
> together and [i still can't tell if was intentional or not]
> lingers long enough for Rick to hear her, and of course he chases after
> her and of course lisa chases after him [talk about triangle!]
> anyways, in "season's greetings" when Lisa finds Minmei at
> Rick's house, she doesn't run in there and start crying in front of
> them,
> she closes the door and leaves.
There is a slight bit of difference. If the scenario was reversed, I
wonder if Minmei would close the door and leave discretely or make a
small scene?
> > To her credit, she tried to be graceful in the end when she realized
> > she
> > had lost Rick.
>
> yes granted too, but then I'm not sure she really ever lovedhim as much
> as he loved her? so for Lisa to lose Rick would be
> more painful for Lisa than it would be painful for Minmei to lose rick,
> since she never really committed to him?
Very difficult to see. When someone is involved in a lot of things,
which one aspect takes precedence? Because she traveled different
circles doesn't mean she loved Rick less than Lisa. I think the end of
the series was very much a redemption of sorts. She realizes how
important Rick is to her but it's way too late; they've grown too far
apart.
> > > week, there was a large handful of "let's give Lisa deity status by
> > > stepping all over Minmay" postings.
>
> well then don't read them if they make you mad =) find someonewho likes
> Minmay and discuss her with that person, just as
> I found someone who likes Lisa and Rick, thats what we do
> in email exchanges. =)
But hearing "I agree" from the other person is so boring. 8^)
> I personally never claimed or said that Lisa was perfect, in fact,its
> her imperfections that is part of the reason why i like her character,
> cuz
> its easier to empathize with a depressed person than a bratty type
> person.
I think this entire thread started with this misunderstanding. My
favorite female character is perfect and yours is not so nyah. 8^)
I second this motion though. It also serves as a larger contrast to her
character. Here is someone barely old enough to drink alcohol legally
who has worked her way to perhaps the second most powerful position in
the entire RDF: if Gloval goes down, Lisa becomes of the SDF-1. Yet
she can't handle a crush on someone to save her life.
> > The biggest d*** move of all was Rick ditching
> > Lisa to see Minmei when the former two had a date settled.
>
> that was one of THE worst things he ever did.its was bad enough to stand
> up Lisa, but then the fool doesn't
> even have enough sense to get rid of the evidence [the scarf
> minmei gave him]!
Truthfully, I rate that as worse than anything Minmei or Lisa ever did.
I think having someone Roy around to guide him in these matters would
have helped ( much like Claudia assisted Lisa ).
> > When things got out of control with either of the two, Mr. Hunter
> > either got angry
> > or highly cynical and sarcastic.
>
> and, talking about "taking out frustration" he often took itout on Lisa
> most of the time....
That he did, mostly because she was a convenient target. And not that
she didn't deserve some of it. Breaking up Minmei and Rick's embrace
after he rescued her from Khyron comes to mind. He seemed to reserve
his sarcasm for Minmei. Lisa he'd just plain argue with. What a tool.
8^)
> yup, except finally coming to his senses at the end =)he is not that
> mixed-up in DYRL, which is why everytime
> I get mad at him, i remember how he was a little bit
> more mature in DYRL.
Seeing Hikaru step up to the plate and choose Misa outright was the most
satisfying thing I've seen in a movie. Ever. I marked out big time and
cheered him on. After the heartache Lisa went through in the series,
it's the least he could have done for her. 8^)
I find it amazing people feel like they have to tout one or the other as
the main heroine of the series. They have equal footing in my eyes
because each contributed different things.
Regards,
Huy Nguyen
A Fan of Minmei and Lisa
Michael Prewitt
Hello Dianora:
A small, unrelated comment stating I enjoy your Robotech fanfics very
much :).
Dianora2 wrote:
>
> A very human attribute. Speaking as an intelligent, non-bubbly woman, I
> empathize with Lisa's resentment of Rick being blinded by bubbly, air-headed
> types -- and make no mistake, Lisa =does= resent Minmei's bubbliness and "movie
> star" charm. It happens all too often in life, let's face it. (This is of
> course MY perception of Minmei, not everyone's, but my interpretation of Lisa
> leads me to believe that she feels the same way I do.) This is perhaps
> strictly a personal issue -- I empathize with Lisa because I think I understand
> where she's coming from. Of course hanging the poster upside wasn't mature;
> but what woman could blame her? It's not like she went out and beat the girl
> up like they do on Jerry Springer. ;D
>
Exactly! Okay hanging the poster upside down might be considered
immature. But, I do not
agree completely. Here's why -- she could have defaced it, turn it down,
or maybe worse. Now
this would have been very immature in my opinion.
Remember Rick's photo album containing nothing buy Minmei pictures
appeared to affect Lisa more
than this mere poster. A poster can be easily replaced, a photo album
full of memories cannot. Yet, she
did not with or to his album. An example of an immature act would be
perhaps throw the album in the
garbage can or possible burn it (maybe a bit too severe).
> > I found this line to be merely a way for an angry Lisa Hayes
> >to release her frustration on Rick.
>
> Of course it was. She was angry, hurt, and upset. Angry, hurt and upset
> people say stupid things sometimes. I don't know anyone who hasn't.
>
I agree. Generally, people do not do rational or logical things when our
are primal emotions are
excited.
> The Reba West thing is irrelevant to me; for me, it's the words coming out of
> the mouth, not the voice. I have friends with annoying voices but that doesn't
> mean I find =them= annoying. <g> This is especially true since I first found
> Robotech through the McKinney novels (say what you will, I like them <g>),
> where voices don't even exist!
>
I completely respect your thoughts on this subject. The beauty of
Robotech is that people
take away different things from it. For me personally, Robotech would
not have been
the same had Tony Oliver and Melanie McQueen not been the voices of Rick
Hunter and Melanie McQueen.
Example: I finally received my dubbed copy of Super Dimentional Fortess:
Macross (aka Macros DYRL).
Although I liked the movie very much, I was at times difficult to watch
the Hikaru and Misa characters
and not hear Tony or Melanie speaking. But, again, this relates back to
what I said above :).
> I think what it comes down to is that all of the characters in Robotech have
> their flaws, which is what makes them human, which is why we understand/relate
> to them so much. Now, all human beings have certain flaws and character
> traits, yet we like some people and dislike others. Why is that? Personal
> preference as to the qualities we like or dislike in others -- otherwise
> everyone in the world would be friends with everybody else!
>
> The same holds true for Robotech. Lisa and Minmei both have flaws, but they
> have different kinds of flaws, different kinds of strengths, and different
> personalities. Personal taste and human nature dictate that we will most
> likely like one and hate the other, as the characters are very different.
> Where you fall on that issue is up to you. That's what makes life
> interesting. :)
>
Yes, Yes, Yes!! I think everyone who ever watched Robotech has their own
favorite
characters. As you stated, this is due to personal perference. I feel
that this
is guided perhaps by certain traits we see in a character that we find
appealing
or attractive or possibly relate to. In my case, Lisa Hayes is my
favorite character.
Not because she comes across a "cold, cruel" person. But because I
perceive a vulnerable, dedicated
caring person whose been hurt emotionally.
--
Michael Prewitt
Michael Prewitt
Jeffrey,
I apologize if I have re-iterated anything in the plethora of replies
generated from your initial post.
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>
> In episode 35, I was also annoyed with Lisa when she scolds Rick about
> "being more discrete" when he has visitors. What's the meaning of this
> statement? I found this line to be merely a way for an angry Lisa Hayes
> to release her frustration on Rick. He clearly didn't do anything
> wrong;
Perhaps not deliberately in this episode. But let us not forget that he
did
keep Lisa waiting for 8 hours while he went off to visit Minmei in
monument city
in Episode #34. What's worse is that Lisa figured it out from the
perfume scent
on his scarf. Now, who wouldn't be angry with an individual who did this
to them ??
> Another point that I find interesting is how many people are quick to
> write or say that Minmay is at fault for continually frustrating
> Misa/Lisa's relationship. I find this argument to be completely the
> opposite. Minmay already was dating Hikaru/Rick, and his feelings for
> her were never completely resolved until the end when they break up/he
> dumps her. In terms of butting into others' relationships, anything
> that Minmay is guilty of holds true for Misa/Lisa.
>
I disagree with you completely regarding Minmei and Rick dating. Minmei
clearly states in Episode #5 (?) when serving the military men in her
aunt and uncle's restaurant that she and Rick are just friends. Also, I
do not recall which episode it was but when asked by the news crew about
her "boyfriend", Minmei replies "Rick Hunter? Oh we're just friends".
I do agree that his feelings towards Minmei were never resolved until
possibly
Episode #36. But, since Rick was not actually seeing Minmei in a
boyfiend capacity, I don't think you can say Lisa was intruding on
their relationship.
>
> Extending on this, I think it would be interesting if Reba West played
> the role of Lisa Hayes. How many people would regard Lisa the same?
Myself speaking (er..writing) personally, I am a Lisa Hayes. So,
obviously
my opinions will be biased. However, the Lisa Hayes persona that
interested
me is not just about how the character was portrayed or written. Alot of
her appeal to me was because Melanie McQueen was the character's voice.
I don't
feel Reba has the "right" voice for Lisa Hayes. Perhaps this sounds
strange,
but imagine if Tony Oliver did Max Sterling's voice instead of Rick
Hunter's,
For all of Robotech's supposed short-comings, I feel Harmony Gold did an
excellent
job selecting the right group of actors/actresses to be the characters
voice.
This includes having Reba West doing Minmei's voice.
> Isn't it strange how one flawed character gets hero-worshipped while the
> an equally-flawed character is hated?
Perhaps, but I think people identify with an individual character's
traits.
In Lisa's case, she was perhaps a bit "cold" but I feel to cover up her
vulnerability and fear of being hurt romatically and emotionally.
--
Michael Prewitt
Michael Prewitt
HayesHunter wrote:
>
>
> >
> > No kidding -- in fact, I think Lisa's biggest flaw is her low
> > self-esteem when
> > it comes to relationships -- she puts up with a lot more from Rick
> > than I ever
> > would! :D
> >
>
> vulnerability and not that "cold fish" mask. Thats probably the reason
> for her "mask", to hide exactly the opposite of the front she puts up to
> others, the "old lady" mask. That's one of the reasons why she's myfave,
> cuz you saw her go from a "cold fish" to a broken hearted woman, and
> that shows dynamicism in her character.
>
Although Dianora made the initial comment about Lisa having low
self-esteem when it
comes to relationships. Like everything else in life, I like to see it
differently.
In my own opinion, I see Lisa as because very cautious as opposed to
having low-esteem.
I see Lisa as having suffered a painful loss when Karl Riber ran off to
Mars. She
appeared to be deeply in love with him and his leaving affected her
greatly. It is only
human nature for us to protect ourselves from being hurt from whatever.
In this case,
an emotional relationship scarred Lisa severely. As a result, she is
going to apt to
avoid if possible.
However (not to appear to be talking out of both sides of my mouth), I
agree with Dianora and
you regarding Macross: DYRL. Misa Hayese does have low self esteem when
it comes to relationships.
She even comments why would anyone want to marry her or something to
this affect.
> > >some people prefer to "ignore" a character's flaws while touting and
> > >shouting about another'sit works both ways i do admit =)
> >
> > True...for me, though, Lisa's flaws are part of what make her so
> > interesting!
> >
>
> exactly! i agree! and the fact that you can see her struggle with
> herself makes her character, to me, all the more interesting =)
>
Personally, I felt like Lisa's character was the one character that
allowed us to see her
different aspects of Lisa. The disciplined, calculating military
officier and the heartbroken, cautious, loving woman. Over time, it
appeared that her character grew from the initial "cold fish" as we
learned more about her.
--
Michael Prewitt
Michael Prewitt
HayesHunter wrote:
>
>
>
> Minmei just plain ticked off Lisa, and what's wrong with that? People
> can get ticked off by
> people others like....can't make a person like someone if they don't
> want to. Plain and simple.
>
This is an excellent point!! If everybody were the same or had the same
character traits, then life would become very boring. As you stated,
you can't a person like you or love you if they don't want to.
What's that old saying.."The only thing money cannot buy is love"
>
> yes, it seemed during the series, Minmei only went to look for Rick when
> there was no oneelse around. She didn't really bother with him when
> everythign was fine and dandy, only
> when she didn't "have anyone else to turn to" that she went to him.
>
I agree with you completely on this point. Notice at the end of Episode
#4
how Minmei's interaction with Rick seemed to change once they were
discovered in the bowels of the ship. This obviously disturbed Rick to
where he talked with Roy Hunter about it.
Furthermore, I felt like Rick was acting as Minmei's emotional "safety
net".
When the chips were down, she could always run back to Rick for
emotional
support. Personally, I feel like this was unfair to Hunter as she was
sending
him mixed signals.
>
> in this case, "fighting fire with fire" isn't going to help Minmei's
> case, might make it worse in
> some people's eyes, i know now that I dislike her even more! =)
>
Correct. People are going to like Lisa Hayes/Misa Hayese because.....
and People are going to like Lynn Minmei because.....
Because these two characters are portrayed as antagonists, then I think
it logical to assume that each character's fan base will probably become
antagonistic towards the other character's fan base.
--
Michael Prewitt
Michael Prewitt
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
>
> No, no, no, no, no. That wasn't the reason why I started this thread.
> Someone asked my why I don't like Misa/Lisa, and this thread was my
> answer. If you would read the original post, notice that there are no
> "Because of such and such, Minmay is better than Misa/Lisa." No,
> because I simply wrote down why I don't like Misa/Lisa and fail to see
> why many are quick to put Minmay down and praise Lisa.
>
Well, the Post's subject "What I personally don't like about Misa/Lisa"
is
undoubtly going to attract many Misa/Lisa fans who are likely to come
to her defense. I'm not saying this is necessarily correct, but it seems
that there are more Misa/Lisa fans than Minmei fans participating in
this
thread.
Again, this relates to something I posted either. People are going to
like Lisa because.... or Minmei because....
I suspect there are few people who truly like both characters (i could
be
wrong). But, overall because these characters are portrayed at
antagonists
at times, I think its reasonable to see that their fans themselves will
become antagonistic toward the other character's fans. Again, I'm not
saying this right either. But, If you agree with me, you can understand
why the many Lisa fans will come to her defense.
Look at this way, if all of the Misa/Lisa fans and all of the Minmei
fans were given the task to list all of their favorites character's
positive and negative attributes and then have the fans debate which
character's are the better. Well, the debate will continue on
indefinitely.
Because fans are just that, ardent devoted enthusiats---possibly short
for
fanatical ??
--
Michael Prewitt
Michael Prewitt
Huy Nguyen wrote:
>
> >
> > yes granted too, but then I'm not sure she really ever lovedhim as much
> > as he loved her? so for Lisa to lose Rick would be
> > more painful for Lisa than it would be painful for Minmei to lose rick,
> > since she never really committed to him?
>
> Very difficult to see. When someone is involved in a lot of things,
> which one aspect takes precedence? Because she traveled different
> circles doesn't mean she loved Rick less than Lisa. I think the end of
> the series was very much a redemption of sorts. She realizes how
> important Rick is to her but it's way too late; they've grown too far
> apart.
>
Yes, but you have to remember that it takes two people for a true
relationship
to work. How could Rick and Minmei ever have a relationship. As you
mentioned,
she traveled different circles were as Lisa and Rick traveled the same
circles.
Also, I not sure people would agree but Lisa and Rick do/did have a
relationship
especially when the two were shown constantly arguing. Regardless of how
this appears, they still had a relationship. Perhaps not a romatically
emotional
one...but a relationship none the less.
> > > > week, there was a large handful of "let's give Lisa deity status by
> > > > stepping all over Minmay" postings.
> >
> > well then don't read them if they make you mad =) find someonewho likes
> > Minmay and discuss her with that person, just as
> > I found someone who likes Lisa and Rick, thats what we do
> > in email exchanges. =)
>
> But hearing "I agree" from the other person is so boring. 8^)
I know that you are joking somewhat but just because two people have the
same
interest in a character does not mean that necessarily are emailing
back-and-forth
"agreeing". Because they have a comment starting point, it becomes
possible for them
to analysis aspects of the character's persona perhaps introducing
offering a new
viewpoint...something the other perons never considered. I honestly
doubt that there
is any one fan who couldn't benefit from talking another fan with common
interest.
>
> > I personally never claimed or said that Lisa was perfect, in fact,its
> > her imperfections that is part of the reason why i like her character,
> > cuz
> > its easier to empathize with a depressed person than a bratty type
> > person.
>
> I think this entire thread started with this misunderstanding. My
> favorite female character is perfect and yours is not so nyah. 8^)
>
> I second this motion though. It also serves as a larger contrast to her
> character. Here is someone barely old enough to drink alcohol legally
> who has worked her way to perhaps the second most powerful position in
> the entire RDF: if Gloval goes down, Lisa becomes of the SDF-1. Yet
> she can't handle a crush on someone to save her life.
>
Emotions are tricky things. They are developed and are molded around our
life's experiences.
If you are familiar with Lisa's childhood and upbringing, then you are
probably
aware that she grew up in a very strict almost completely militaristic
lifestyle.
I feel like this has perpared her well to command the SDF1.
>
> > yup, except finally coming to his senses at the end =)he is not that
> > mixed-up in DYRL, which is why everytime
> > I get mad at him, i remember how he was a little bit
> > more mature in DYRL.
>
> Seeing Hikaru step up to the plate and choose Misa outright was the most
> satisfying thing I've seen in a movie. Ever. I marked out big time and
> cheered him on. After the heartache Lisa went through in the series,
> it's the least he could have done for her. 8^)
>
Yes, but he didn't do it because he "owed" it to her or anything. I
know, I know
you were making a joke :). Still, it seems alot of fans agree that this
was
the most important if not moving scene in the entire movie.
> I find it amazing people feel like they have to tout one or the other as
> the main heroine of the series. They have equal footing in my eyes
> because each contributed different things.
>
Ah, I have a theory on this....at least in the United States. For
whatever reason,
being number #1 is all that matter. Being #2, well you might as well be
#2,000,000.
Using sports as a example, winning the Super Bowl is all that matters.
Are the Green Bay
Packers failures because they did not win.
But, its worse then that. I feel the US' perception of a "winner" is
being number #1. For
some reason, people can easily recall who won the World Series, Super
Bowl, NCAA championship, NBA
finals, but I'm betting that most (if not all) of us give pause thinking
"okay, now who did so and so
beat!!"
Regarding Lisa and Minmei, admitting one "heroine" is better or superior
is then probably
perceived as the other being #2 --- or possibly a failure?? [Don't Flame
me on this]. Just
relating back to my theory above. So, you can see why people are adament
about supporting
their fav character.
--
Michael Prewitt
HayesHunter
hey jeff, this is fun, you started a good thread! =)
i think i'll practice my cut-n-paste skills and do a combo-reply
Hi there timber!
sorry for the late reply, my browser's Newgroup preferences are messed
up so i almost missed your post! sorry, i'm replying now =)
timber wrote:
> > hehehe thanks, i was a little reluctant to get into this thread
> > anyways,knowing immediately what it would be about
> You and me both.
>
yes, i actualy put this thread on 'ignore' first time i saw it, but
thenbeing the hayes fan that i am i couldn't stand by and keep quiet =)
> Uhm.. Just cuz were guys doesn't mean we see anything differently.
oh no, i know that, but ya can't deny that it does seem that
waysometimes =)
> And I may be upset I may not. It depends on *why* she left me
> waiting for 8 hours. Not because she did leave me. I can't fault Lisa
> for
> being upset with Rick for not going with her to see Minmei instead.
> But I
> would find her a little harder to cope with if she got upset with him
> for
> making her wait for 8 hours if he got into a car accident and had to
> be
> rushed to the hospital (as Minmei probably would have. (Not to bash
> her just
> stating a note that I've made.))
yes, i'm sure if Rick was injured or something, she woudl think
nothingof the incident cuz he had a valid excuse. And she was actually
willing, it seems, to forgive him rather easily by saying,
"Well its too late for a picnic now...we can at least take a walk,
right??"
> And this by any guy at least according to some standards that seem to
> have
> been raised around here.. Would have been ruled as "typical girls
> over-reacting" now in Minmei's case it most likely is a girl
> over-reacting..
> However Lisa also reacts with a more "male" trait. She bases hers more
> on
> logic than on emotion.
yes, good point, i also think that the maturity levels in eachwoman is
obvious in this particular scene.
> a lady I would be hesitant to go with Minmei merely because her wish
> that
> she and Rick were the only ones in the world. That seems very childish
> to me
yes, that was some line she said, wishing everyone else would die :Owe
never saw Lisa wishing ill will to befall Minmei, again, its
the obvious difference in maturity
> and I personally have not need nor any desire to be around someone
> with a
> childish attitude. Vengeance is one thing. Childish-ness (is that a
> word? :p
>
hmmm....i think that IS a word! =) but then what do I know, last timei
took an english class was 5 years ago =)
> I find that Lisa is more palateable in her attitude (and my
> resulting in
> ability to easily handle Minmei) merely because she acts more grown
> up.
> Acting much more adult.. She realizes the reality that Rick isn't
> hers.. And
> in the end gives up. Something that is very human to do.
AND very hard to do, which is why I admire her =)its not easy to let
something you've fought so hard for let go,
especially when you never had a real chance, and
considering how much she suffered because of it, it
was like losing Karl Riber all over again.
> Where as Minmei
> like the horse that runs back into the ablaze barn is just TO STUPID
> TO GIVE
> UP THE GHOST.
hahahahahha i like that line =)
> I've met girls like Minmei and believe me they are NOT people
> that I enjoy being around. In fact the last one did it so often (acted
> like
> Minmei) that I almost did slap her up side the head.
yes, that's why she annoys a lot of people.
> more of a Roy Fokker than a Rick Hunter..
good for you! =) Roy had a better head on his shouldersthan "wrong way
Rick" did =)
> they re-met after a year, his statement sounded EXACTLY like me. ("I
> just
> need someone that I can share my deepest feelings with, I'm sorry
> Claudia."))
>
and it does take a lot to admit that, takes a strong, mature person
=)sure did wish Roy could've lived long enough to talk some
sense into Rick, but more so for Claudia's sake.
> Anyways that's just my $.25
hey that's a pretty good quarter there =)
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
> Well, I don't care for Robotech Comics, but I see your point. Anyway,
>
> the consensus opinions of Robotech fans varies from Macross, so it's
> hard to compare.
but don't forget, that Macross poll was just that, a poll ofthe Japanese
fans in 1983, when Robotech hadn't even
come into existance, so their votes weren't influenced
by Robotech at all. And Misa/Lisa still came out on top =)
> As for throwing the poll out, it was a joke. Just makin' fun of the
> fact that Kaifun got that many votes.
>
oh okee doke, i didn't catch it that first time.yup, dunno how
Kyle/Kaifun got so many votes when
he turned into a tyrant at the end. :O
> Whereas many villains are led into villainry (did I make this word
> up?)
> by hardening pasts, he brings himself upon it with hypocrisy,
> self-righteousness, and intolerance. He's a villain, and I challenge
> all the Kyle defenders to deny it.
you can challenge them, but i don't think there are any Kyledefenders =)
thank goodness =)
> She's still insignificant in comparison. I mena, if she was never on
> the show, it wouldn't have affected the story very much, would it?
who Minmei? well if she ws never on the show, but stillacted the way she
did, a lot of people would still feel the same about her.
> I confess, you caught onto my tactics. Better rework strategy with
> the
> other generals. Most astute there, HayesHunter. I salute you.
*returns salute* =)
> Seriously, I don't mind Misa as much as Lisa, for the exact reasons as
>
> you pointed out. In fact, it would have been more appropriate to
> leave
> the Misa part out of the thread title and just direct it against Lisa
> Hayes.
ahh but you see you can't do that if you are pulling the "macross"minmay
into the arguement, if you are gonna use the "macross"
minmei, then we have every right to use the "macross" misa as well.
=)
> Where did you get this? Aww, since it's in Japanese, it wouldn't do
> me
> much good anyway.
oh i ordered it through UCIrvine =)I have the Miss DJ CD, all Minmei
stuff, i'm sure you'd be happy
with that. But so what if its in Japanese! just get a freind who
can translate or teach yourself the language [that's what i'm doing]
this "Macross Classic" tries to fill in the 2 years between
Dolza's attack and Reconstruction Blues.
then [though this would be of no interest to you] there is
a "Distant Fading Memories" CD which is primarily
centered on Misa/Lisa =) of course, that's my favorite =)
Huy Nguyen wrote:
> There is a slight bit of difference. If the scenario was reversed, I
> wonder if Minmei would close the door and leave discretely or make a
> small scene?
yes that would be interesting huh?? let's see.......show of hands...how
many think she'll make a scene, "Oh rick how could you do
this to me, you told me you loved me! etc etc"
or.....would she leave quietly?? :/
> > I found someone who likes Lisa and Rick, thats what we do
> > in email exchanges. =)
>
> But hearing "I agree" from the other person is so boring. 8^)
>
hahahaha nope not for us =)
> I think having someone Roy around to guide him in these matters would
> have helped ( much like Claudia assisted Lisa ).
yes, Roy would've been able to help him more, however, nowthat i think
about it, i wonder if he'd be able to get through
completely to rick? I mean, Claudia tried for years to get
Lisa to tell Rick how she felt, but Lisa couldn't do it.
Still though, i'm sure Roy would've made an impact on Rick.
> That he did, mostly because she was a convenient target. And not that
>
> she didn't deserve some of it. Breaking up Minmei and Rick's embrace
> after he rescued her from Khyron comes to mind. He seemed to reserve
> his sarcasm for Minmei. Lisa he'd just plain argue with. What a
> tool.
>
hehehe I think he deserved to be bonked on the headby BOTH of them =)
> Seeing Hikaru step up to the plate and choose Misa outright was the
> most
> satisfying thing I've seen in a movie. Ever. I marked out big time
> and
> cheered him on. After the heartache Lisa went through in the series,
> it's the least he could have done for her. 8^)
High 5 to you! For me that was the best part of the movie =)and it is
THE LEAST he could've done =)
Actually, Rick is not good enough for Lisa but I can't
argue with her choice, if he's the one that makes her happy then ok =)
Michael Prewitt wrote:
> Furthermore, I felt like Rick was acting as Minmei's emotional "safety
>
> net".
> When the chips were down, she could always run back to Rick for
> emotional
> support. Personally, I feel like this was unfair to Hunter as she was
> sending him mixed signals.
yes, and i can see where he'd get so hung up on her, i think if shejust
told him flat out he might've gone to Lisa sooner?
but also, Rick was giving Lisa some mixed signals too huh?
> Correct. People are going to like Lisa Hayes/Misa Hayese because.....
> and People are going to like Lynn Minmei because.....
> Because these two characters are portrayed as antagonists, then I
> think
> it logical to assume that each character's fan base will probably
> become
> antagonistic towards the other character's fan base.
yes, that's the normal human reaction, you badmouth my
character, i'll badmouth your character. I like the quote,
"If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all" =)
that's why i havne't posted with the subject being, "Minmei is this"
or "Down with Minmei" cuz I know that upon seeing that
header, the minmei fans will come out in defense, that's
why i got into this thread, to defend my fave character =)
i can say that what i got out of this thread was
an even greater admiration for Lisa, having had to
remember and analyze all the heartache she went through
again, reminds me why she's my favorite =)
Jeffrey T. Jhee
HayesHunter wrote:
>
> hey jeff, this is fun, you started a good thread! =)
Thanks, but I think that I'm gonna lay off this thread from now on. It
seems to be getting off my original intentions, and I got a big test on
Thursday.
>
> > Seriously, I don't mind Misa as much as Lisa, for the exact reasons as
> >
> > you pointed out. In fact, it would have been more appropriate to
> > leave
> > the Misa part out of the thread title and just direct it against Lisa
> > Hayes.
>
> ahh but you see you can't do that if you are pulling the "macross"minmay
> into the arguement, if you are gonna use the "macross"
> minmei, then we have every right to use the "macross" misa as well.
> =)
>
Actually, this was never meant to be an argument, though I should have
known better and realized that it would become one. This thread was
simply to state my reasons for not liking Lisa Hayes.
> > Where did you get this? Aww, since it's in Japanese, it wouldn't do
> > me
> > much good anyway.
>
> oh i ordered it through UCIrvine =)I have the Miss DJ CD, all Minmei
> stuff, i'm sure you'd be happy
> with that. But so what if its in Japanese! just get a freind who
> can translate or teach yourself the language [that's what i'm doing]
> this "Macross Classic" tries to fill in the 2 years between
> Dolza's attack and Reconstruction Blues.
> then [though this would be of no interest to you] there is
> a "Distant Fading Memories" CD which is primarily
> centered on Misa/Lisa =) of course, that's my favorite =)
>
Friends? I better research that topic...
> i can say that what i got out of this thread was
> an even greater admiration for Lisa, having had to
> remember and analyze all the heartache she went through
> again, reminds me why she's my favorite =)
I can't say the same about any of the characters really, except I
disrespect Hikaru/Rick even more.
Huy Nguyen
Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
> Hmmm... I guess that if I want to keep my role as general of FMDB, I
> must do something about Rick Hunter and Hikaru Ichijyo. I hate it when
> men play women. Makes things harder for everyone.
I don't know if ragging on Hunter/Ichijyo is the way to go. He's not
really guilty of playing either of them... nothing like Roy did in his
youth. He simply has the same problems coping with his emotions for
both and can't express himself worth a damn.
Regards,
Huy Nguyen
Huy Nguyen
HayesHunter wrote:
> timber wrote:
>
> yes, good point, i also think that the maturity levels in eachwoman is
> obvious in this particular scene.
>
> > a lady I would be hesitant to go with Minmei merely because her wish
> > that
> > she and Rick were the only ones in the world. That seems very childish
> > to me
Ummm, not so sure childish is 100% correct.
> yes, that was some line she said, wishing everyone else would die :Owe
> never saw Lisa wishing ill will to befall Minmei, again, its
> the obvious difference in maturity
>
> > and I personally have not need nor any desire to be around someone
> > with a
> > childish attitude. Vengeance is one thing. Childish-ness (is that a
> > word? :p
> >
I saw the moment as despair. Think about it. The world is practically
coming to and end. Alien forces are hell bent on wiping out the last
vestiges of the human race. The person you love has just rejected you.
And that same someone asks you to sing a song? Composed by the third
person in the triangle. It would take an awfully large person to go
"Sure thing, Buddy!"
If the roles were reversed, Lisa would have sunk in a well of
depression. A case could easily be made how that's a childish reaction.
> > I find that Lisa is more palateable in her attitude (and my
> > resulting in
> > ability to easily handle Minmei) merely because she acts more grown
> > up.
> > Acting much more adult.. She realizes the reality that Rick isn't
> > hers.. And
> > in the end gives up. Something that is very human to do.
>
> AND very hard to do, which is why I admire her =)its not easy to let
> something you've fought so hard for let go,
> especially when you never had a real chance, and
> considering how much she suffered because of it, it
> was like losing Karl Riber all over again.
Yes it is. And it's exactly what Minmei does in the end. Is she
eloquent about it? Did she handle it with the utmost dignity? Not
necessarily in both counts but she _tried_. In the end, she loses the
most of all right around when she was starting to grow up a little bit.
I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that Minmei loved Rick.
She pays the highest price for her flaws. In the end she is alone with
nothing but her music. That alone would be enough to redeem her in my
eyes.
> > I've met girls like Minmei and believe me they are NOT people
> > that I enjoy being around. In fact the last one did it so often (acted
> > like
> > Minmei) that I almost did slap her up side the head.
>
> yes, that's why she annoys a lot of people.
>
Apples and oranges. It's a nice change of pace. After all, variety is
the spice of life. 8^)
I really think the Minmei character is much deeper than people give her
credit for.
To me, these are her outstanding qualities:
She always means well.
She has a large heart and is a perpetual source of "happy ions."
Minmei lives life and seeks to experience a lot of things.
In no way did she go out of her way to hurt anyone.
Nor did she seek confrontation like her lesser half, Lynn Kyle.
She was a flirt but not a slut. ( Big difference! )
Her tenderest moments were always with Rick, reaffirming my belief her
love for him was true and genuine.
>
> good for you! =) Roy had a better head on his shouldersthan "wrong way
> Rick" did =)
Damn. I think I should have kept that nickname to myself. 8^)
Let's remember Roy took a while to grow up. He had his fair share of
life's lessons before he owned up to Claudia.
> Jeffrey T. Jhee wrote:
> you can challenge them, but i don't think there are any Kyledefenders =)
> thank goodness =)
I think Eddie Frierson might be the only one. At least he got his
redemption in the Gatchaman OVAs.
> > I think having someone Roy around to guide him in these matters would
> > have helped ( much like Claudia assisted Lisa ).
>
> yes, Roy would've been able to help him more, however, nowthat i think
> about it, i wonder if he'd be able to get through
> completely to rick? I mean, Claudia tried for years to get
> Lisa to tell Rick how she felt, but Lisa couldn't do it.
> Still though, i'm sure Roy would've made an impact on Rick.
>
> hehehe I think he deserved to be bonked on the headby BOTH of them =)
This is where Roy would have helped. It would have been similiar to the
relationship they had in DYRL where Roy was giving him all kinds of
advice. Plus he would have definitely smacked Rick upside the head. 8^)
> > Seeing Hikaru step up to the plate and choose Misa outright was the
> > most
> > satisfying thing I've seen in a movie. Ever. I marked out big time
> > and
> > cheered him on. After the heartache Lisa went through in the series,
> > it's the least he could have done for her. 8^)
>
> Actually, Rick is not good enough for Lisa but I can't
> argue with her choice, if he's the one that makes her happy then ok =)
I don't know about this. Rick's character is an interesting hero. He's
not really outstanding in any manner. He's a survivor and loyal. Let's
not forget how much _he_ grew up from a snot-nosed brat to a mature
military officer. I think he's a cool lead character; he literally
could be the guy working down the hall.
[Mark out for Robotech follows]
That's also one of the greatest things of Robotech and why it will have
lasting appeal. It's about ordinary people rising up to meet
extraordinary circumstances. To this day, I list some of the characters
as my role models only behind the 1980 US Olympic Hockey team.
> Michael Prewitt wrote:
>
> > Furthermore, I felt like Rick was acting as Minmei's emotional "safety
> >
> > net".
> > When the chips were down, she could always run back to Rick for
> > emotional
> > support. Personally, I feel like this was unfair to Hunter as she was
> > sending him mixed signals.
Hey, if you're willing to be a doormat, don't be surprised to find a
shoe in your face. 8^)
I know. I can relate. 8^)
> yes, and i can see where he'd get so hung up on her, i think if shejust
> told him flat out he might've gone to Lisa sooner?
> but also, Rick was giving Lisa some mixed signals too huh?
That he was. I still find it difficult to fathom he didn't understand
the extent of her feelings until Lisa spelled it out for him. But
perhaps this was why he gave out mixed signals; he just wasn't sure.
It's a mysterious gray area I'm sure all of us have walked.
> yes, that's the normal human reaction, you badmouth my
> character, i'll badmouth your character. I like the quote,
> "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all" =)
> that's why i havne't posted with the subject being, "Minmei is this"
> or "Down with Minmei" cuz I know that upon seeing that
> header, the minmei fans will come out in defense, that's
> why i got into this thread, to defend my fave character =)
I also agree with the quote you cited. If a character is truly better
than someone, he/she has to stand on his/her own merits, not at the
expense of someone else.
In the end, I think a comparison as to who is "better" is fruitless.
The way this thread is headed, we're going to reduce the status of all
three to "Totally Retarded". 8^)
Regards,
Huy Nguyen
Fan of both Lisa and Minmei
Dianora2
>Except,
>I'm a bit confused about the last clause "I'm not convinced Minmei truly
>believed that one
>existed." Do you mean between her and Rick or Rick and Lisa?
Oops, sorry if it wasn't clear. I meant between Rick and Lisa.
>However, I
>still argue that the voices made a world of a difference.
Maybe. Truth be told, I find Lisa's voice pretty darn annoying too!
>Why do they even bother with a
>"Love/Hate" section for her bio? She isn't the only character with
>flaws.
I think maybe she's just the most "controversial," in that people really seem
to love her or hate her, without much in between... Their other editorial
comments do seem uncalled for -- why piss off a segment of fans like that? Oh
well.
--Dia
Dianora2
>Speaking of personality improvements, I can't help but note how people
>are pointing out the flaws in Lisa and Minmei. What about the third
>person in this triangle?
Oh, Rick is the biggest jerk in the situation as far as I'm concerned. I was
just particularly addressing the Lisa critique...
--Dia
Dianora2
>In my own opinion, I see Lisa as because very cautious as opposed to
>having low-esteem.
Hmm...good point. To my mind it's a combination of both...
--Dia
X-Phile/Shipper ~ Cafe USTer ~ XF-BAJSFG Minister of Erotic Fan Fiction
Propoganda ~ Star Warsian/Lando Killer #222 ~ Robotecher/Professional Minmei
Hater ~ J&Visionary/Keeper of V's Lawn Furniture ~ E&Supporter/Keeper of The
Sarcasm
Dianora2
>Right . . . . [comical double-take] Didn't I just say that yesterday?
Skip, I gotta tell ya, your post never showed up on my server...I swear I
wasn't ignoring you. :)
--Dia
Skip
Dianora2 wrote:
> Somehow this conversation just isn't fun anymore!
Sorry, Dia. Nothing personal, but I'm always going to take up for
aesthetic consistency in Robotech. In part for the reasons that I give
to Huy Nguyen in my post "Robotech, McK., and the whole darn thing!" (to
be posted later this afternoon), I insist that Robotech is Robotech.
Even if I could, I wouldn't force you to change; but understand that, in
my own polite and respectful fashion, I'll always fight for artistic
integrity -- emphasis on *always* . . . emphasis on *fight*.
And, elsewhere:
> Skip, I gotta tell ya, your post never showed up on my server...I swear I
> wasn't ignoring you. :)
Ah, so I *still* exist -- that's of no small comfort to me.
I can't understand the wierd error, though. I hope DejaNews archives
'em.
--Skip