The order used in the A&E release
DhDowning
the British release by Carlton?
Robert Fairclough
> Did the episode order used by A&E originate with A&E, or is it aalso used in
> the British release by Carlton?
The A&E order was an unofficail screening sequence suggested by Six of
One. The UK Carlton release is the original 1967 British transmission
order.
Rob
Graeme
> The A&E order was an unofficail screening sequence suggested by Six of
> One. The UK Carlton release is the original 1967 British transmission
> order.
>
> Rob
From a marketing standpoint, it's a really poor one, as it stacks all
the Portmeirion-rich episodes together. It also makes the show look
like it's taking itself way too seriously (as does that incredibly
pompous "No man is just a number" slogan). Since there really is no
one "Best" order, what's the point of scrapping both the *official* US
and UK orders in favor of one that a fan club decided by committee?
Frankymole
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:21cb2547.04021...@posting.google.com...
Surely the Prisoner series' point was that some men (and women) WERE
"jsut a number", which is why even someone of the calibre of 'Number
Six' had such a hard time staying individual. I didn't see all the
Villagers sitting on that throne and meeting No 1 in Fall Out!
--
Frankymole
~~~~~~~~
The alt.tv.prisoner FAQ can be found at:
http://www.web-sighted.co.uk/franks/faq.html
Information about Six of One, the disgraced Prisoner Appreciation
Society, can be found at:
http://www.sixofone-info.co.uk/
DhDowning
the Portmeirion-rich episodes together. It also makes the show look
like it's taking itself way too seriously (as does that incredibly
pompous "No man is just a number" slogan). Since there really is no
one "Best" order, what's the point of scrapping both the *official* US
and UK orders in favor of one that a fan club decided by committee?
>>
Actually, I have my reasons for approving of the new oprder, which I discuss in
my review of Set #1 on Amazon.com.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004Y7DZ/qid%3D1077244715/sr%3D11
-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/102-4588776-9883329
My review is the one titled "A New Beginning."
Frankymole
"DhDowning" <dhdo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040219214227...@mb-m24.aol.com...
Just a pity it isn't a good chronological order.
SKNavis
>one "Best" order, what's the point of scrapping both the *official* US
>and UK orders in favor of one that a fan club decided by committee?
For this relative newbie (I discovered the show about two years ago), I found
the A&E order quite useful, and the back cover of each DVD gave good
justifications for why each episode was placed where it was. It was all, to
quote another 60's sci-fi cult classic, "quite logical." :-) I always watch
them in that order. It flows really well.
Peace,
Shaun
SKNavis
>
Franky, can you explain why it isn't a good order? Without going into details
here I can tell you that the justification given on the American DVDs made
sense to me. Then again, I'm not the expert many of you here are.
Peace,
Shaun
DhDowning
here I can tell you that the justification given on the American DVDs made
sense to me. >>
Me too.
DhDowning
found
the A&E order quite useful, and the back cover of each DVD gave good
justifications for why each episode was placed where it was. It was all, to
quote another 60's sci-fi cult classic, "quite logical." :-) I always watch
them in that order. It flows really well.
>>
Glad you feel that way. Did you read my review?
JamesStep
>what's the point of scrapping both the
>*official* US and UK orders in favor of
>one that a fan club decided by committee?
In the book "The Prisoner" by Carraze, it says that the order
the shows were originally shown was influenced in some cases
by practical concerns and problems (rather than being a purely
artistic decision based on chosing the best or most logical
sequence).
For example, the producers might have wanted to show
episode X on a particular week, but it was still being edited
so they subtituted episode Y because it was ready to go.
James
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Remove "NOSPAM" from my address when sending me e-mail.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-
SKNavis
>them in that order. It flows really well.
> >>
>
>
>Glad you feel that way. Did you read my review?
>
Not yet, but I will! I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say.
Peace,
Shaun
Graeme
number", which is why even someone of the calibre of 'Number Six' had such a
hard time staying individual. I didn't see all the
Villagers sitting on that throne and meeting No 1 in Fall Out!
--
Frankymole
>>
Yeah, that does seem to be the message of the show. That becoming a number is
a very real danger that many people succumb to if they aren't careful. You
have to wonder if whoever wrote that "No man is just a number" tagline had even
watched the series.
Graeme
>the A&E order quite useful, and the back cover of each DVD gave good
>justifications for why each episode was placed where it was.
They were mostly pretty superficial reasons that have been repeated by rote
over and over without really taking any counter-arguments into account.
And nobody has really explained why either of the two official orders are
unsatisfactory. Yeah, there are some problems with them. There are problems
with the A&E order too. Here's a problem with both of them. It makes little
sense to put A. B. & C. right after Chimes of Big Ben. Right after we've seen
that if No. 6 could get away, he'd go straight back to his old superiors, it's
silly to think that he resigned because he was selling out. In fact, the whole
Chimes of Big Ben plan could never have been executed at all until the whole
selling out question had been settled.
>>It was all, to quote another 60's sci-fi cult classic, "quite logical." :-)
And like that classic, by "logical" you mean "intuitively pleasing", which is
what the same guy who was always talking about logic in that classic railed
against.
>>I always watch them in that order. It flows really well.
Not to me. Portmeirion is everywhere for the first several episodes, and then
it becomes a bit player for the bulk of the show. Very annoying.
Graeme
>the shows were originally shown was influenced in some cases
>by practical concerns and problems (rather than being a purely
>artistic decision based on chosing the best or most logical
>sequence).
>
>For example, the producers might have wanted to show
>episode X on a particular week, but it was still being edited
>so they subtituted episode Y because it was ready to go.
>
>James
That's true of the UK viewing order, but not the US order. They showed it the
way they wanted for the US order and yet they still left the first 8 episodes
(and the last 3) in exactly the same places they were in the UK order.
Frankymole
"SKNavis" <skn...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20040220221427...@mb-m02.news.cs.com...
Reiterate it here and I will point out its flaws. (Aside from its
aesthetic flaws which are obvious). I haven't time to search it out
amongst all the other orders out there.
Cheers,
Frankymole
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20040221101748...@mb-m16.aol.com...
Andrew Pixley, the tv historian, explains this very well in his article
in (spit! Max Hora's) Village World. Graeme's hit the nail on the head:
the UK and US orders are the same up to episode 8. The divergence
occurs because the UK couldn't stick to the "laid down" order. (Having
any fixed order at all is pretty unique in 1960s film series terms).
There is evidence that the UK would have used the US order (e.g. TV
listings newspaper/magazine material for episode 9). But post-production
problems hit some episodes, and they were being finished so close to
broadcast dates, that other episodes had to be brought forward. For
this reason, Do Not Forsake Me is shown much later in the UK order, for
instance. Pixley speculates that the reason later UK showings did not
use the (probably-McGoohan chosen) US order (which has a nice mix of
Portmeirion episodes throughout) is that ITC were so worried that some
UK regions would list/await episodes that were not yet finished
sound-editing (or whatever), they sent memos with didactic instructions
on what episode to list next.
So the original US order (albeit including Living In Harmony) is the
"correct" broadcast order. I also agree with Graeme that there isn't
too much wrong with it in internal-chronology terms, certainly no more
than most of the attempted chronological orders.
Isn't this in the FAQ??
--
Rick
prefer the A & E order. It's actually surprisingly close to one I put
together in 1988, the day before visiting Portmeirion. Curiously, my
episode order and that one listed in the booklet "Prisoner of
Portmeirion", which I bought at Portmeirion, both came up with the
same reasonings for the "General"- "It's Your Funeral" arrangement.
My preferred order is as follows:
Arrival
Dance of the Dead
Free For All
Checkmate
The General
Schizoid Man
Many Happy Returns
It's Your Funeral
Chimes of Big Ben
Girl Who Was Death
Change of Mind
Do Not Forsake Me, Oh My Darling
Living in Harmony
Hammer Into Anvil
A, B and C
Once Upon a Time
Fallout.
I arranged them as I did because in the first four there are
indications Number Six is new. He still believes he can beat the
system and that he can trust some people.
"The General"- "Chimes" is in that order because there was a Number 12
in "The General" who was in the Village "quite a long time."
Obviously, he had to be there before the Number 12 in "Schizoid Man."
"Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns" are back to back because the
dates coincide. "Schizoid" begins Feb. 10, "Many" ends March 19. "It's
Your Funeral" takes place immediately after "Many Happy Returns"
because the "interim" Number Twos used to discredit Number Six's
assassination warnings could have been there while Number Six was "on
holiday." As to "Chimes", it belongs in the middle of the series run,
since Number Six is a master of the game by that time.
The remaining episodes show the efforts of the various Number Twos to
get information from Number Six becoming more drastic and more
desperate until Degree Absolute, which is why I've put "A, B & C"
closer to the end. "Do Not Forsake Me..." is placed in this group only
because it take place a year after Number Six is captured.
Of course, putting "A, B, & C" near the end means "The General" would
have to come before it. On the other hand, in "The General," Number
Two says he and Number Six are old friends, implying "A, B & C" came
first. But then, on the third hand, if "A, B & C" came first, would
Number Two get a second chance after his failure, to be there for "The
General"? Maybe, but given that he seems more nervous in "A, B & C",
it seems more reasonable to assume THAT episode is his second chance,
not "The General." Plus the "old friends" comment could have referred
to a pre-Village association, for all we know.
We also have to take into account the very real possibility that
during the hectic pace of recording a TV series, certain details might
get overlooked. If "A, B & C" was recorded first (I think it was, but
am going from memory), Patrick McGoohan, et al might've decided they
liked Colin Gordon and decided to bring him back again for "The
General" without worrying about whether it was reasonable to expect
that particular Number Two to get a second chance.
And, as others have mentioned, some episodes weren't ready to run a
particular week, so another was put in its place. "Dance of the Dead",
a contender for the second episode, was held back until people had a
better sense of what the show was about. This despite the fact that
Number Six's statement that "I'm new here" becomes questionable with
"Dance of the Dead" airing after episodes like "Chimes of Big Ben",
"Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns", all of which take place over
the course of several weeks.
One curious thing about my own list. When I put it together, I already
owned the book "The Official Prisoner Companion" by Matthew White and
Jaffer Ali. That book contains a list of the seven episodes McGoohan
says "really count" and are arranged in his order:
Arrival
Free For All
Dance of the Dead
Checkmate
Chimes of Big Ben
Once Upon a Time
Conclusion (Fall Out)
I wonder why I didn't follow that order, up to "Chimes"? Whatever my
reason, I apparently didn't write it down at the time and no longer
remember it. Well, actually, as I said, "Chimes" belongs in the middle
(of a 17 episode run) because Number Six is a master of the Game.
Can't say, though, why I arranged the earlier episodes differently
than McGoohan would have.
Anyway, that's my episode arrangement, for what it's worth
Be seeing you.
Rick
graem...@aol.compost (Graeme) wrote in message news:<20040221101537...@mb-m16.aol.com>...
Ronster
news:20040221101748...@mb-m16.aol.com...
> That's true of the UK viewing order, but not the US order. They showed it
the
> way they wanted for the US order and yet they still left the first 8
episodes
> (and the last 3) in exactly the same places they were in the UK order.
>
It's been a long time since I saw M*x's books but ISTR there was an episode
order debate running through them.
IIRC Nogger made a case for the UK order and asked it to be made clear that
it was not 'an official Six of One order'
So was he just trying to show off how clever he could be, by arguing that a
screening order that was changed for practical reasons should be the
'correct' one? And as for that 'clarification'...!
Sounds like it!
Ronnie
--
http://www.thepennyfarthing.com
Frankymole
"Rick" <UD...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9fd2355f.04022...@posting.google.com...
> "The General"- "Chimes" is in that order because there was a Number 12
> in "The General" who was in the Village "quite a long time."
No, he'd been "with us" quite a long time. Colin Gordon says "how long
have you been with us, Number Twelve?" and Castle replies "Quite a long
time." Now Colin hasn't been in the Village, either. So the most
likely interpretation is "with us" means "with the organisation", not
necessarily on the front line - their Village installation.
> Obviously, he had to be there before the Number 12 in "Schizoid Man."
> "Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns" are back to back because the
> dates coincide. "Schizoid" begins Feb. 10,
It also ends Feb 10th! And since 6 was unconscious on Arrival in the
Village, we don't know which date is true. I think Schizoid starts in
January, he goes through the "lost weeks" of brainwashing (approx 4
weeks fingernail growth is used as a plot point), the Curtis gambit is
around Feb 9th-10th, and MHR runs from mid-Feb to his birthday on 19th
March (he is on the raft for 6 weeks, remember).
"Many" ends March 19. "It's
> Your Funeral" takes place immediately after "Many Happy Returns"
> because the "interim" Number Twos used to discredit Number Six's
> assassination warnings could have been there while Number Six was "on
> holiday."
To be fair, they know 6 will know the films are fakes the second he sees
them. They needn't have been real serving Number Twos (and their film
is not in the archive when Gyseghem asks to see them).
As to "Chimes", it belongs in the middle of the series run,
> since Number Six is a master of the game by that time.
Although he's returned "after a gap of months" according to Colonel J.
> The remaining episodes show the efforts of the various Number Twos to
> get information from Number Six becoming more drastic and more
> desperate until Degree Absolute, which is why I've put "A, B & C"
> closer to the end.
Good choice. Number Two also doesn't say he's "the *New* Number Two" in
the titles, showing he's been there before, though P hasn't seen much of
him since The General failure.
> "Do Not Forsake Me..." is placed in this group only
> because it take place a year after Number Six is captured.
>
> Of course, putting "A, B, & C" near the end means "The General" would
> have to come before it. On the other hand, in "The General," Number
> Two says he and Number Six are old friends, implying "A, B & C" came
> first.
Or that Colin's been around for a few weeks and had some untelevised
tussles with P.
But then, on the third hand, if "A, B & C" came first, would
> Number Two get a second chance after his failure, to be there for "The
> General"? Maybe, but given that he seems more nervous in "A, B & C",
> it seems more reasonable to assume THAT episode is his second chance,
> not "The General." Plus the "old friends" comment could have referred
> to a pre-Village association, for all we know.
Good point.
> We also have to take into account the very real possibility that
> during the hectic pace of recording a TV series, certain details might
> get overlooked. If "A, B & C" was recorded first (I think it was, but
> am going from memory),
Yes, immediately before. Odd that the huge "hotline" phone didn't
reappear. Along with the titles dialogue, seems to indicate 2 is more
trusted in The General, so that should come first.
Patrick McGoohan, et al might've decided they
> liked Colin Gordon and decided to bring him back again for "The
> General" without worrying about whether it was reasonable to expect
> that particular Number Two to get a second chance.
Yep, plus they didn't have too many actors lined up for the No 2 role by
then (what with scripts coming in dribs and drabs)...
> And, as others have mentioned, some episodes weren't ready to run a
> particular week, so another was put in its place. "Dance of the Dead",
> a contender for the second episode, was held back until people had a
> better sense of what the show was about.
McGoohan hated it and shelved it, probably permanently until John S.
Smith secretly rescued it for some editing.
Frankymole
> prefer the A & E order. It's actually surprisingly close to one I put
> together in 1988, the day before visiting Portmeirion. Curiously, my
> episode order and that one listed in the booklet "Prisoner of
> Portmeirion", which I bought at Portmeirion, both came up with the
> same reasonings for the "General"- "It's Your Funeral" arrangement.
>
> My preferred order is as follows:
>
> Arrival
> Dance of the Dead
> Free For All
I'd swap these last 2... Free For All, he doesn't know whwre the Twon
Hall is, but by Dance, he is told "that's the Town Hall, you tried to go
in!". If he was told in episode 2, I don't think he'd forget by episode
3! Also, Number 2 in Dance says "we're democratic... in some ways" but
it's pointed out there's no opposition. So P wouldn't fall for the "we
hold elections once a year" ruse in FFA if that came second. I also
like Rachel Herbert's "This is only the beginning..." speech, which has
more power if it doesn't come after the near-lynching in Dance.
> Checkmate
> The General
> Schizoid Man
But in The Schizoid Man, near the end, P reveals he doesn't know
who/what The General is, in his attempts to pretend he is Curtis he
slips up with the discussion of whose idea it was "report to the
General? That's a new one!". So I say The General comes after
Schizoid.
> Many Happy Returns
> It's Your Funeral
> Chimes of Big Ben
> Girl Who Was Death
> Change of Mind
> Do Not Forsake Me, Oh My Darling
> Living in Harmony
> Hammer Into Anvil
In Hammer, daffodils are all over the place (in the hospital, brought by
P to No 73's grave, in large closeup on the grave, etc) so I place this
earlier - on P's return after MHR in the spring. Also note, this works
best as the "turning point" when he learns he can break links in the
Village's hierarchical chain. In eps like "Funeral" he runs rings
around No 2's as a matter of course!
> A, B and C
> Once Upon a Time
> Fallout.
Agreed. I put the General jsut before A.B. and C. though, as I like
Colin Gordon saying he's just "Number Two" in the titles, not "New", and
I get round the "we don't seem to have seen very much of each other", "I
haven't seen very much of YOU" as being a jibe that 2 has been skulking
indoors working on his new plot and licking his wounds since The
General.
Anyway I agree with the general(!) "shape" of your order. Mine is
similar but I put the routine "it's always worked before" Harmony plot,
and the rather simple "might drop his guard with children" Girl
earlier... Girl needs to be early as 6 hasn't yet learned there are no
kids in the Village normally!!!
0) Fall Out ;o)
1) Arrival - Jun/July 1966
2) Free For All - July 1966 - all the "new here" stuff, and doesn't know
where Town Hall is. Learns!
3) Dance of the Dead - Aug 1966 - told "this is the town hall" so FFA
can't come after this.
4) Checkmate -Aug 1966 - clearly summer, leanrs to tell friend from foe.
Witty word-association "Free?" "For all!".
5) Harmony - Sep '66 (the 'Harmony' lot tree is in summer foliage even
after hallucinations, an early Village routine plot)
6) Chimes - Sep '66-Oct/Nov '66 (takes 6 weeks, same tree bare by end,
woods bare and full of autumn leaves)
7) Girl - winter 66/67 (dark by children's bedtime, early simple plot, 2
thinks P hasn't realised kids are "flown in"?)
8) Schizoid - Jan- 10 Feb '67 (calendar)
9) Many Happy Returns - Feb-19 Mar '67 (dates given on-screen, in 1967
18 March *was* a Saturday as given)
10) Hammer - Mar/Apr '67, clearly shown as Spring
11) Change of Mind - Mar/Apr '67, again clearly shown as spring (birds
returning, stoned No 86 picks primroses for No 2, etc)
12) It's Your Funeral - some time has passed, possibly 2 interim No 2's,
P's forehead scar has healed. Must precede Forsake (annual appreciation
day is new on No 6!).
13) Forsake - Jun/Jul '67. One year since abduction.
14) The General Aug '67? - No 2 fails, but is brought back anyway by No
1 for the next plot; he must be running out of resources.
15) A.B. and C. - Oct/Nov '67? - a very desperate, dangerous plan. No 1
is only allowing a week, time is pressing
16) Once Upon A Time - late '67/winter 1967/68- again only a week is
allowed. another old No 2 brought back.
17) Fall Out - late' 67/winter 1967/68
18) Arrival - well it is all cyclical ;o)
etc
I still prefer the original US order for viewing, it has a nice mix.
Rick
I'd dispute a few choices (but then no one is going to come up with a
"perfect" order of Prisoner episodes. Television has to many
imperfections and continuity errors to allow that. Especially during a
time when continuity wasn't a major concern.
You make a good argument with putting "Free For All" before "Dance of
the Dead." Both, were, of course, contenders for the second episode. I
can go along with your Arrival-Checkmate arrangement as defined by the
season, as well as my own argument that Number Six is still new. But
I'm not sure if I agree with "Living in Harmony" as episode 5. Yes,
it's summer, but the use of potentially dangerous drugs suggests a
desperation on Number Two's part that would come further down the
road, perhaps the following summer. But then, as they say, half of a
dozen of one, six of the other.
Regarding your statement about Number six not knowing who or what the
General is in "Schizoid", remember that the computer General in "The
General" was destroyed. Number Six is going to assume Number Two is
talking about a human military officer.
Plus the computer General's function centered around Speedlearn, not
strategy for getting Number Six to crack.
"Girl", however, could work as an early episode, as you suggest.
As to your statement (in a previous post) that "Schizoid Man" ends
Feb. 10, the fact that the date is the same as it had been at the
beginning is one of the clues (the fingernail injury being another)
that tips Number Six off to the fact that more than one day has
passed. The photo that Number 24 took shortly before Number Six's nail
was bruised includes the little calendar in the background, which
reads Feb. 10.
I am surprised however, that when Number Six wakes up on what he
thinks is the next morning to find everyone calling him Number 12, the
date hasn't been changed to read Feb. 11. Unless Number Six changes
the date himself, and hadn't gotten around to it with all the
excitement, the only other way to buy that he wouldn't immediately
wonder why it was STILL Feb. 10 would be if he and Number 24 had
stayed up after midnight doing their mind reading act, and he'd
already changed the calendar from the 9th. Since there's a curfew, I'd
doubt it.
"Schizoid" began on Feb. 10, and "Many" ended March 19, because if you
work out the time frame for those two episodes back to back, it all
adds up. We can also accept that it was actually Feb. 10 when
"Schizoid" began because Number Six would've easily been able to
verify the March dates when he was in London.
And Number six wasn't on the raft for six weeks. His last Tally-Ho log
entry was "Day 28" and all indications are that he encountered the gun
runners that same day, not weeks later. Plus, if March 18 is Day 28,
then Day 1 is Feb. 19. The time between Feb. 10 and Feb. 19 would be
long enough to grow a beard and for the blood blister to move up
Number Six's fingernail.
As to your statement (on a previous post) that They will know that
Number Six will know the assassination warnings (plural) are fakes,
yes, he'll know, of course, that he never spoke to those particular
number Twos; but he can't prove it. Remember, the retiring Number Two,
not his successor, shows Number Six those recordings, and if I recall
correctly, identifies the ones on the screen as interim Number Twos
during his absence. If Number Six and the retiring Number Two were
both gone at the same time, the former can't prove to the latter that
he didn't meet the fill-ins.
As to the "Many Happy Returns"/ "Hammer Into Anvil" grouping you
suggest, I see your argument about it clearly being spring, but my
primary problem with that arrangement is that it puts Patrick Cargill
in back to back episodes with nothing to indicate that Thorpe and
Number Two are the same person. If Thorpe turned out to be Number Two
in "Many", then it could work, but "Mrs. Butterworth" was Number Two
in that one.
I don't see Thorpe and Number Two as the same person, just the same
actor in two different roles. It was common, especially in the days
before VCRs, for an actor to return in a different guest role; or for
a "stock company" of actors, if you will, to be used regularly on a
series. "The Fugitive" employed the latter. Just to give one example,
Richard Anderson, later "Oscar Goldman" of the Six Million Dollar Man
and Bionic Woman, appeared on that series as Kimble's employer; a
sheriff; an Air Force officer; a police officer; and finally, as
Kimble's brother-in-law (he was, in fact the fourth actor to play that
last role; again re-casting was no big deal for a small part in the
days before VCRs and more strict adherence to continuity).
Sometimes the producers of a show remembered an actor had played a
certain character before and had him or her play that role again, but
often they created a new character. Bruce Hyde, who played Lt. Riley
in the Star Trek episode "The Naked Time", was hired to play a
different role in "Conscience of the King." The producers remembered
that he'd previously played Riley, so they changed the script so his
character was Riley and not the Lt. Newguy they'd written for that
episode.
"A Change of Mind" and "Do Not Forsake Me" work as spring/early summer
episodes; and I can even accept putting "The General" directly before
"A, B & C" near the end (I definitely think "The General" should
precede "A, B & C" in any event); but not, as I said, for the argument
you give for not having "The General" precede "Schizoid."
As to my own comment about the late Number 12 being there quite a long
time, and thus having to die before the Curtis Number 12 came along,
it's always possible he had been in the Village a long time; but he
was stuck at a desk and didn't interact with the other villagers until
"The General." And, of course, the Village makes its own rules. They
can have two Number 12's if they want to.
Or, as you said, the "with us" comment could refer to an association
that pre-dates his time in the Village (though I see "us" as referring
to the Village).
No argument with the "A, B, C"- "Fall Out" arrangement.
Be seeing you.
Rick
"Frankymole" <Frank@Ask for it on the group.com> wrote in message news:<c1acui$96t$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Frankymole
> I'd dispute a few choices (but then no one is going to come up with a
> "perfect" order of Prisoner episodes. Television has to many
> imperfections and continuity errors to allow that. Especially during a
> time when continuity wasn't a major concern.
True. There's no right answer, though we can each find a best fit we
prefer as individuals. Not the A&E one for preference :o)
> You make a good argument with putting "Free For All" before "Dance of
> the Dead." Both, were, of course, contenders for the second episode.
There were at least 3, maybe 4, scripts written as "episode 2" following
on from Arrival, due to the way Markstein and Tomblin sought scripts!
> I
> can go along with your Arrival-Checkmate arrangement as defined by the
> season, as well as my own argument that Number Six is still new. But
> I'm not sure if I agree with "Living in Harmony" as episode 5. Yes,
> it's summer, but the use of potentially dangerous drugs suggests a
> desperation on Number Two's part that would come further down the
> road, perhaps the following summer. But then, as they say, half of a
> dozen of one, six of the other.
Agreed, I wanted it later, but the discussion about "it's always worked
before" makes me think it's a routine plan, not specific to No 6
(especially the "give a man love... component!) . It has to come one
summer and I prefer it to be his first. But it's a lightweight, and it
doesn't upset my "shape" of the series to put it late. I don't think
the drugs are potentially dangerous though, not like "AB&C" which you
put commendably late. After all ,the plan has never failed with anyone
else. Perhaps having nutters like Bauer's No 2 and The Kid wasn't a
great idea!!
> Regarding your statement about Number six not knowing who or what the
> General is in "Schizoid", remember that the computer General in "The
> General" was destroyed. Number Six is going to assume Number Two is
> talking about a human military officer
Nice touch - but I think 6 would have been cannier - after all the idea
could pre-date the destruction. He just seems
so non-plussed by Anton's reaction, doesn't seem to register why
"reporting" to the General should seem odd!
> Plus the computer General's function centered around Speedlearn, not
> strategy for getting Number Six to crack.
True, but with a brain that can answer any question, why not ask "how
can No 6 be defeated?" Maybe the General answered "he will crack up
when he meets.. .himself" ;o)
> "Girl", however, could work as an early episode, as you suggest.
>
> As to your statement (in a previous post) that "Schizoid Man" ends
> Feb. 10, the fact that the date is the same as it had been at the
> beginning is one of the clues (the fingernail injury being another)
> that tips Number Six off to the fact that more than one day has
> passed. The photo that Number 24 took shortly before Number Six's nail
> was bruised includes the little calendar in the background, which
> reads Feb. 10
Yes, but the Village is trying to convince him no time has passed. So
they would skip from whatever calendar date they have... whether real or
fake. I can't fit in a month's worth of fingernail growth from Feb 10th
to Feb 19th (when MHR starts).
> And Number six wasn't on the raft for six weeks. His last Tally-Ho log
> entry was "Day 28" and all indications are that he encountered the gun
> runners that same day, not weeks later. Plus, if March 18 is Day 28,
> then Day 1 is Feb. 19. The time between Feb. 10 and Feb. 19 would be
> long enough to grow a beard and for the blood blister to move up
> Number Six's fingernail.
No, it shows about a month's worth of growth - of course No 6 could grow
hair and nails freakishly fast! In any case, it doesn't change the
order you and I place them.
Great fun discussing this, btw. Brings out a lot of rarely-discussed
detail in the writing.
--
Frankymole
~~~~~~~~
The alt.tv.prisoner FAQ can be found at:
http://www.web-sighted.co.uk/franks/faq.html
Information about Six of One, the disgraced Prisoner Appreciation
Society, can be found at:
http://www.sixofone-info.co.uk/.sixofone-info.co.uk/
Frankymole
> suggest, I see your argument about it clearly being spring, but my
> primary problem with that arrangement is that it puts Patrick Cargill
> in back to back episodes with nothing to indicate that Thorpe and
> Number Two are the same person. If Thorpe turned out to be Number Two
> in "Many", then it could work, but "Mrs. Butterworth" was Number Two
> in that one.
A production issue. For chronology I disregard these, except where the
actor is clearly playing the same role (like Colin Gordon). For
instance, Kenneth Griffith is in both Girl and Fall Out (along with the
same rocket set!) but I don't let it influence me either way. As far as
I'm concerned, both Thorpe and 2 are different people (though as for Mrs
Butterworth and AB&C's dream-Butterworth...). As I say, my preferred
"viewing order" is the original US one (except I include the censored
Living In Harmony, instead of only having 16 episodes as the US did
originally). Chronology doesn't depend on actors.
Rick
> Great fun discussing this, btw. Brings out a lot of rarely-discussed
> detail in the writing.
> --
Agreed. What's more were I to suggest we come up with a compromise
episode order between mine and the one you offered, broken down by the
seasons, I'd go with this:
1) Arrival
2) Free For All
3) Dance of the Dead
4) Checkmate
6) Chimes
7) Girl
8) Schizoid
9) Many Happy Returns
12) It's Your Funeral
10) Hammer into Anvil
11) Change of Mind
13) Forsake
5) Harmony
14) The General
15) A.B. and C.
16) Once Upon A Time
17) Fall Out
You'll note from the order of the numbers from your list that I put
"Living in Harmony" during Number Six's second summer, though I agree
it could probably fit in the first one, too. My main reason for doing
so it would otherwise have come in the middle of McGoohan's original
six (plus the conclusion).
I also put "It's Your Funeral" after "Many Happy Returns", as I have
on my own version of the episode order, for reasons stated in previous
posts on this thread.
As to "The General", I still think it can work directly before
"Schizoid Man", but it also works directly before "A, B & C." near
the end. Again, I refer to previous comments by both of us about
reconciling the John Castle Number 12 having been "with us" a long
time.
Be seeing you.
Rick
Frankymole
Nice reconciliation, I like it. It doesn't tread on any scripted facts
(unlike most orders I've seen) or the seasonal stuff, so to dispute it
would just be "a matter of taste" (as P in Hammer would say). I've
never really understood why "Girl" is almsot always put right near the
end - it was only there originally because filming and editing on it did
not complete until the series only had a few weeks left to run!! And
its heavy use of sets and actors that also appear in Fall Out make the
latter look very "cheap", reusing so much - so its the only placing in a
"nice order to view them in" like the US order that I can't abide.
If a TV station is transmitting them, it's also a good idea not to have
the appallingly naff-looking 'A Change of Mind' next to another cheapo
episode (like Funeral) as it makes for a few dull weeks. The UK
Change/Funeral/Forsake/Harmony combo was dreadful, but forced on us by
circumstances. 'Funeral' in-between the Portmeirion/location rich MHR
and Hammer works okay. I suppose Forsake is different enough to carry
Change of Mind. I wouldn't find the order above too horrid to watch.
Of course no-one in 1967 could be arsed to work out a chronological
order, even if it was possible with more than half the episodes
unfinished when the series began screening.
With all the Episode Order Debate contributions over the last 15 years,
there needs to be an EOD website ;o)
Frankymole
interesting (well, to me!) that struck me in my order of the following:
> 5) Harmony - Sep '66 (the 'Harmony' lot tree is in summer foliage even
> after hallucinations, an early Village routine plot)
>
> 6) Chimes - Sep '66-Oct/Nov '66 (takes 6 weeks, same tree bare by end,
> woods bare and full of autumn leaves)
Leo McKern mentions that Cottage Number Eight is now vacant, that Nadia
is "the New Number Eight" and there is some discussion about what
happened to the old one. Now, we might expect P to know that Alexis'
Kanner's Number Eight fell off a balcony (debatable suicide), yet P
starts saying things "there wasn't a funeral" and Leo says "Not always
possible. One needs a body." I find it amusing to speculate that P is
fishing here to find out why The Kid No 8 wasn't buried (on the beach?)
and that it may be because "One [Number One??] needs a body" to be
resurrected as No 48 (prior to Fall Out, the Village try to re-integrate
'No 48'... which number just happens to be 8 crossed with 6...)...
far-fetched? Well so was the Leo resurrection. Nice symmetry anyway,
even though it is obviously accidental.
No I haven't been drinking...
Titan
> >
>
> With all the Episode Order Debate contributions over the last 15 years,
> there needs to be an EOD website ;o)
There is!
http://www.geocities.com/doniacorp/prisoner/prisonerpage.html
Frankymole
"Titan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aa49dd3e...@text.news.ntlworld.com...
I meant one with mine and Rick's proper order ;o)
Peter Dunn
"Titan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aa49dd3e...@text.news.ntlworld.com...
pity this page has lots of links to Sick no Fun pages and none to the
umutual or Rick's pages on Sick No Fun
Peter
SKNavis
>
>And like that classic, by "logical" you mean "intuitively pleasing", which is
>what the same guy who was always talking about logic in that classic railed
>against.
Aren't you being a little harsh towards me? How DO you know what I mean? No
one has to explain Spock to me, and while I'm not as up on the Priz as some of
the folks here are it's why I raise the question. Why do people object to the
A&E order?
You merely talk about "superficial" reasons, but never address it further. I
found the arguments on the A&E disc to be reasonably thought out, and takes
series events, as well as dialogue, into account. Some episodes were defnitely
placed with idle reasoning, but were still placed as "early" episodes for
particular reasons. Others, such as the rationale for the placemnt of "The
General," "The Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns" are quite detailed.
Tell me more about where it goes wrong and why, because I'm honestly
interested. If you want to provide me with a better episode by episode order,
and the reason for it, feel free to do so. I'd be happy to try the episodes in
an alternative viewing order.
>>>I always watch them in that order. It flows really well.
>
>Not to me. Portmeirion is everywhere for the first several episodes, and
>then
>it becomes a bit player for the bulk of the show. Very annoying.
>
I was thinking more in terms of the plot than the scenery. Portmeirion does
become a bit player later in the series, but how many other, popular, running
orders would change that (and by how much)? How would it compare to the actual
production order? These are questions that my limited knowledge of the series
really can't answer.
The earlier episodes, at least in the order I've watched, seem to deal more
with #6's attempts to escape whereas the later episodes seem to deal more with
#6's attempts to bring The Village down. I'm oversimplifying things a bit,
but I think that's a fair generalization. As #6's captors tried more and more
desperate measures to break him, it also makes sense that we'd see episodes
like "Living In Harmony," that have #6 well removed from the familiar environs
of The Village. Again, it's my lmited knowledge coming into play here, but it
works for me.
Maybe I'm mix them up sometime just for the hell of it, or maybe try someone
else's "expert" opinion. Since there are no definitive right or wrong answers,
however, I don't see the big deal here. We're talking 17 episodes here, with a
definite beginning and end. This is probably a loaded question, but how much
variance can there be?
Peace,
Shaun
SKNavis
>Reiterate it here and I will point out its flaws. (Aside from its
>aesthetic flaws which are obvious). I haven't time to search it out
>amongst all the other orders out there.
I've been away for a few days, but now that I'm back (and since you offerered
to critique it) here ya go (and I'll add the A&E rationales as well):
*Arrival (duh)
*Free For All (Second ep filmed, refers to #6 as "a recent recruit")
*Dance of the Dead (Tells the maid "I'm new here,")
*Checkmate (Chess champ says "You must be new here...")
*Chimes (A&E puts it at #5, saying it can't be an "early" ep because of the
several months that pass in this story)
*A, B and C (A&E sees the drugs as the next step after the failure of "Chimes")
*The General (Same #2 as "A, B and C" of course, and the presence of a #12,
meaning it has to precede "The Schizoid Man")
*Schizoid, followed by...
*Many Happy Returns (Feb.10th is the date at the start of "Schizoid," while
"Happy" ends on March 19th. The 27 days covered in the latter backtracks to
Feb 21st, the day after "Schizoid" ends).
*It's Your Funeral (#6 was gone for four weeks in "Happy,"explaining why he
can't dispute the unfamiliar #2 faces he's shown)
*Change of Mind (no strong rationale, aside from #6's ability to "turn the
tables" on his captors getting stronger)
*Hammer Into Anvil (Again, #6 is self-assured and in command. A&E also places
it 11th to help people forget Patrick Cargill was in a previous episode!)
*Do Not Forsake Me (Another victory for #6, and of of course this episode was
filmed later than most of the others)
*Living In Harmony (Another desperate, drug-induced, attempt to break #6.
Also, #6 figures out the charade right away)
*Girl Who Was Death (Another easy victory for #6, and A&E sees it as a shot of
humor before the heavy final two eps)
*Once Upon/Fall Out (Duh again!)
Now some of these are just a matter of taste I would guess, as some of these
early episodes could probably be interchanged with little or no disruption to
the flow of the series. I can also see the logic of pushing "Chimes" back
futher. The PBS station I first saw The Priz on a couple of years ago had
"Checkmate" in a much different spot than A&E does (though I don't remember
exactly where). Obviously, there's room for debate here. Still, my limited
(for now) knowledge doesn't see any problems with this.
Peace,
Shaun
SKNavis
>Hall is, but by Dance, he is told "that's the Town Hall, you tried to go
>in!". If he was told in episode 2, I don't think he'd forget by episode
>3!
Although A&E doesn't mention this plot point, they also put FFA in the number
two slot, followed by "Dance." More solid justification for the A&E order.
>Also, Number 2 in Dance says "we're democratic... in some ways" but
>it's pointed out there's no opposition. So P wouldn't fall for the "we
>hold elections once a year" ruse in FFA if that came second. >I also
>like Rachel Herbert's "This is only the beginning..." speech, which has
>more power if it doesn't come after the near-lynching in Dance.
True and true.
>I say The General comes after
>Schizoid.
A&E says The General has to come first, since TG has a #12 who's been there
"quite a long time," yet The Schizoid Man also features a #12, meaning is has
to precede "Schizoid."
>Agreed. I put the General jsut before A.B. and C. though, as I like
>Colin Gordon saying he's just "Number Two" in the titles, not "New",
A&E seems to have slipped on that one, reversing the two. Your order for those
two makes sense!
I hadn't considered all of the "seasonal" aspects you bring up in this thread,
Frank (too much to reahash here). Very interesting!
Peace,
Shaun
Steve Dix
>
>The earlier episodes, at least in the order I've watched, seem to deal more
>with #6's attempts to escape whereas the later episodes seem to deal more with
>#6's attempts to bring The Village down. I'm oversimplifying things a bit,
>but I think that's a fair generalization. As #6's captors tried more and more
>desperate measures to break him, it also makes sense that we'd see episodes
>like "Living In Harmony," that have #6 well removed from the familiar environs
>of The Village. Again, it's my lmited knowledge coming into play here, but it
>works for me.
>
A while back, there was an episode order published in "ITV" which
split the series into three sections - in the first section, 6 is
desperate to break out but fails. The middle section 6 begins to find
the weaknesses of the village : and in the third he has learned to
play the game, and the village authorities are the ones who are
desperate, trying ever-more crackpot schemes to try and crack him.
--
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http://www.snorty.net/ http://www.stevedix.de/blog
http://www.stevedix.de/ http://www.mp3.com.au/TheSinistrals/
UKMG/(B)R[6x-]!M!S(J)(F) E8?1A4?2B2K1 GAS+ C= P= G= B+ R+/= M+ S++(--) r-(--)
Frankymole
> >Also, Number 2 in Dance says "we're democratic... in some ways" but
> >it's pointed out there's no opposition. So P wouldn't fall for the
"we
> >hold elections once a year" ruse in FFA if that came second. >I also
> >like Rachel Herbert's "This is only the beginning..." speech, which
has
> >more power if it doesn't come after the near-lynching in Dance.
>
> True and true.
Racking my brain I think Mary Morris says of the opposition "an
irritation we've dispensed with", so I am even happier that it must come
after Free For All.
> >I say The General comes after
> >Schizoid.
>
> A&E says The General has to come first, since TG has a #12 who's been
there
> "quite a long time," yet The Schizoid Man also features a #12, meaning
is has
> to precede "Schizoid."
Well he's been with the organisation a long time - not necessarily with
The Village and with that number. P has not seen him before, so it
looks like he's been recently inserted, meaning he'd take up a vacant
number! I still think the reaction to "Report to the General?! That's a
new one!" is so peculiar that 6 cannot know it's a (destroyed) computer
or he wouldn't have said it. Of course, as Rick notes, the General here
may be a real person (like the old fart in Chimes) but I doubt it since
No 2's reaction is so OTT that I think Markstein inserted it as a nod to
the Lewsi Greifer episode which he could well have been editing at the
time...
> >Agreed. I put the General just before A.B. and C. though, as I like
> >Colin Gordon saying he's just "Number Two" in the titles, not "New",
>
> A&E seems to have slipped on that one, reversing the two. Your order
for those
> two makes sense!
Thanks! To be honest they're totally reversible, but I like them being
together and I do think "AB&C" is more desperate.
> I hadn't considered all of the "seasonal" aspects you bring up in this
thread,
> Frank (too much to reahash here). Very interesting!
Thank you again! Those kind of details interested me in the original
debate back in Max's 1985 book. Now whenever I watch TV I'm always
spotting such things (if they seem deliberate) which is a bit
distracting.
> Peace,
> Shaun
And you,
BCNU
Frankymole
> Why do people object to the A&E order?
I've no great beef with it. As a chronological order it has a couple of
mistakes, but nothing grievous. As a viewing order, well six of one
half a dozen of the other, everyone's taste is different. I do like the
original intended order for *broadcasts* (what is commonly called "the
US order"), because that has a nice mix of episodes, though I'd prefer
Girl earlier.
> >Portmeirion is everywhere for the first several episodes, and
> >then
> >it becomes a bit player for the bulk of the show. Very annoying.
> >
>
> I was thinking more in terms of the plot than the scenery.
Portmeirion does
> become a bit player later in the series, but how many other, popular,
running
> orders would change that (and by how much)? How would it compare to
the actual
> production order? These are questions that my limited knowledge of
the series
> really can't answer.
My FAQ gives the original filming order, as researched by Andrew Pixley
and Simon Coward. It's no use as a viewing order (Once Upon A Time was
made sixth!). I would be more than happy to add the A&E order to the
FAQ if some kind soul could transcribe their notes/reasonings (to add
value - a dry rehash of the titles in their order would be a bit
pointless).
> The earlier episodes, at least in the order I've watched, seem to deal
more
> with #6's attempts to escape whereas the later episodes seem to deal
more with
> #6's attempts to bring The Village down. I'm oversimplifying things
a bit,
> but I think that's a fair generalization. As #6's captors tried more
and more
> desperate measures to break him, it also makes sense that we'd see
episodes
> like "Living In Harmony," that have #6 well removed from the familiar
environs
> of The Village. Again, it's my lmited knowledge coming into play
here, but it
> works for me.
I've agreed in the past with this ethos (but not their specific
ordering) as I do feel the phases work:
1) the early "bewilderment" of Arrival, Dance, Free For All and so on
(where the Village is just out to confuse him into submission, or
convince him he may as well talk as they show him that he cannot escape)
gives way to:
2) Number 6's emerging ability to identify warders (Checkmate), and
3) turning the tables (The Schizoid Man, where it's touch and go for a
while but due to an accident he pulls back from the brink of a
breakdown), which leads on to...
4) exploiting the Village system against itself (Hammer Into Anvil - a
crucial turning point, and It's Your Funeral where he buggers up 'Plan
Division Q' quite neatly),
5) a cooling off period where the Village don't know how to deal with
him so concentrate on other plans (Funeral again, The General, even
Forsake - although he is needed, the plot is more about getting the rest
of Seltzman's process) and finally
6) Number 6 easily tramples ever-more desperate attempts to extract his
secret (AB&C, Once Upon a Time).
Six phases - very neat. My order also has these :oD I don't think I
was egotistical enough to put mine in the FAQ as it's not "official" in
the way even the A&E one is (i.e. a commercial release order).
Frankymole
<snip A&E order from Shaun)
Ah, thank you (just posted a vague comment on the "phases" of No 6's
rebellion, see my last post - hadn't seen this when I sent it just now).
Give me some time to digest (and maybe get this in the FAQ).
--
Frankymole
Okay, here goes... having to do this quickly, so please discuss and I
can elucidate anything.
First off, no order "isn't good" chronologically in my view if there are
no amazingly obvious facts ignored (like putting Chimes second, when we
know he's been in the Village for months, whereas in Dance and FFA it's
clear he's arrived (and I quote) "quite recently"). I won't comment on
pretty viewing orders again here (In that case I do prefer a good mix of
"feel", Portmeirion mixed throughout and not having all the "way-out"
stuff right at the end.)
So: the A&E order seems to follow what many debaters have seen as the
"phases" of 6's captivity - broadly, losing msot of the early conflicts,
but winning against the Village more and more until the end. This fits
well with the President's obseqious speech about all his victories too -
if he'd started off strong then fell for simple ruses later on he'd look
a twit ;o) The phases in many orders seem to be (I reiterate, do not
adjust your set):
1) the early "bewilderment" of Arrival, Dance, Free For All and so on
(where the Village is just out to confuse him into submission, or
convince him he may as well talk as they show him that he cannot escape)
gives way to:
2) Number 6's emerging ability to identify warders (Checkmate), and
3) turning the tables (The Schizoid Man, where it's touch and go for a
while but due to an accident he pulls back from the brink of a
breakdown), which leads on to...
4) exploiting the Village system against itself (Hammer Into Anvil - a
crucial turning point, and It's Your Funeral where he buggers up 'Plan
Division Q' quite neatly),
5) a cooling off period where the Village don't know how to deal with
him so concentrate on other plans (Funeral again, The General, even
Forsake - although he is needed, the plot is more about getting the rest
of Seltzman's process) and finally
6) Number 6 easily tramples ever-more desperate attempts to extract his
secret (AB&C, Once Upon a Time).
So how does A&E add up?:
> *Arrival (duh)
Yep.
> *Free For All (Second ep filmed, refers to #6 as "a recent recruit")
Good.
> *Dance of the Dead (Tells the maid "I'm new here,")
And asks Dutton how London is - Dutton himself has only been there a
couple of months.
> *Checkmate (Chess champ says "You must be new here...")
Yep.
> *Chimes (A&E puts it at #5, saying it can't be an "early" ep because
of the
> several months that pass in this story)
Yep.
> *A, B and C (A&E sees the drugs as the next step after the failure of
"Chimes")
Not if they don't want to "damage the tissue", surely - and these drugs
are dangerously untested even on animals. Plus, the reason for the huge
rush isn't apparent.
> *The General (Same #2 as "A, B and C" of course, and the presence of a
#12,
> meaning it has to precede "The Schizoid Man")
Although P hasn't met him before, as if he'd been in the Village itself
for "A long time". I prefer to think he's an employee brought in with
the Speedlearn programme, and given a vacant number.
> *Schizoid, followed by...
>
> *Many Happy Returns (Feb.10th is the date at the start of "Schizoid,"
while
> "Happy" ends on March 19th. The 27 days covered in the latter
backtracks to
> Feb 21st, the day after "Schizoid" ends).
Agree with both of those and the dating. We also know it's probably 1967
(the *Saturday* March 18th, post-1964 [KAR 120C] and the series being
before men on the moon).
> *It's Your Funeral (#6 was gone for four weeks in "Happy,"explaining
why he
> can't dispute the unfamiliar #2 faces he's shown)
But he does - he says the films are fakes. As Gyseghem No 2 has been on
extended leave, he doesn't know if they're real or not. He asks to see
the original films in the bureau of records, only to be told none exist.
Not conclusive, but I see no reason to think these are real No 2's. The
chance is low, with the retirement requiring urgent action. Even if
they were, we don't know whether every No 6 that P meets is shown in the
series. These could be from months before. Still, this isn't a bad
place to put the episode - just pointing out that there are no good
reasons to place this one anywhere (though seasonally it looks like
Spring, the Portmeirion scenes being from Mar '67 with bare trees). It
may be less than one year since P arrived, as "appreciation day" is
annual and he seems unfamiliar with the concept. This is one of the
hardest episodes to place.
> *Change of Mind (no strong rationale, aside from #6's ability to "turn
the
> tables" on his captors getting stronger)
6's exercise regime is seen again in Funeral, and the latter shares
Kosho with Funeral. I don't have a problem with these all being set in
Spring 67, though Change ought to come last because of the time needed
for 6's forehead scar to heal (it's not seen in Hammer or Funeral). Or
you could have a big gap between Change and Funeral for it to heal.
Change and Hammer both use spring as a plot point though - the
ubiquitous daffodils in Hammer and the migrating birds, brittle bare
twigs that 6 angrily snaps, and primroses picked for No 2 by the
doe-eyed doped No 86.
> *Hammer Into Anvil (Again, #6 is self-assured and in command. A&E
also places
> it 11th to help people forget Patrick Cargill was in a previous
episode!)
Well, that's not a chronological reason, that's a viewing-order reason.
Plus there are stacks of other episodes with recurring actors (Alexis
Kanner is in the last 3 filmed, Christopher Benjamin is in 3 as
different people, even Georgina Cookson is in 2). And an awful lot has
to happen between March 19th and no later than mid-April (including some
amazing fast-healing from 6)... I'd prefer to keep this close to MHR and
extract some of the weaker episodes for later (Funeral, Change of Mind)
> *Do Not Forsake Me (Another victory for #6, and of of course this
episode was
> filmed later than most of the others)
Yep. Clearly summer '67, and a year since Arrival.
> *Living In Harmony (Another desperate, drug-induced, attempt to break
#6.
> Also, #6 figures out the charade right away)
Not as desperate as AB&C. For a start, this is a plan the young
scientist (Kanner) says "it always worked before", unlike AB&C's lethal
drug that No 14 warns Colin Gordon's No 2 that she hasn't even had time
to test on animals... plus, things are not as hurried here. I don't
see why A&E reckon this plan is more dangerous/desperate than AB&C
(except that 6of 1 told them so!).
> *Girl Who Was Death (Another easy victory for #6, and A&E sees it as a
shot of
> humor before the heavy final two eps)
Doesn't work in a nice viewing order (ok so I broke my promise not to
mention it again), due to the heavilty-reused sets and actors in Fall
Out which it cheapens by being so close, and it doesn't work
chronologically because if 6 had 14 episodes and over a year of seeing
the Village has no children, no sane Village plan is going to try to
convince him that thsoe kids "just happened" to be there needing a
bedtime story. It stretched credultiy to its limits. Plus the plan is
so simple (and cheap), just surveil No 6 as he tells a story, and its
all set in one bedroom, there's no reason this cannot occur much
earlier. It's only ever shown late because (a) it's bonkers, and (b) it
was made last (except for Fall Out) so ITC went around telling everyone
to show it last, scared that it wouldn't be finished in time! I don't
really care where this bit of fluff goes (it's often shown alone when TV
stations want one episode to show 1960s madness), but please, not near
Fall Out. Never mind Patrick Cargill showing up 2 weeks on the trot (as
filmed!) with Girl and Fall Out we get nearly the entire studio and cast
cropping up 2 weeks later!!! (understandable as money and time had run
out by Fall Out, but no need to embarrassingly highlight the fact,
A&E!). If you must, stick Harmony after this. It's been done once
before in a broadcast.
> *Once Upon/Fall Out (Duh again!)
Yep, the end of the road... until it begins again :o)
In conclusion, the A&E order isn't bad. There's not much that makes me
want to rant (except the Girl placing of course!). Each to their own of
course!
--
Frankymole
"Titan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aa49dd3e...@text.news.ntlworld.com...
One thing I would comment on in that site is the assertion under
"Forsake" that
"In "Do Not Forsake Me..." Number 6's "fiancee" states that he has been
away for a year; this is rather problematic for several reasons: First,
the plot of "Many Happy Returns" strongly suggests that it is the first
time he has been back home since his imprisonment, and we know he has
been in the Village for at least a year at this point (see above);
perhaps he has his memory wiped at the end of the episode, although the
script itself does not suggest this; in any event, it seems strange that
Number 6 should reappear in London twice after resigning and
disappearing, and even stranger that in "Many Happy Returns" he gives no
thought to his "fiancee" (unless he has made a conscious effort to avoid
her after their painful previous meeting in "Do Not Forsake Me..."). "
In fact, in MHR he does say to Mrs Butterworth "if you will forgive me,
I have two calls to make - one in the country, one in the town". We
only see one of those calls (to his bosses) and it is quite possible
that in the excitement of having to try strenuously to prove his case,
he might choose to defer his visit to Janet until after things are
resolved. After all, if he finds and exposes the Village they'll have
all the time in the world to pick up where they left off... (an
interesting question is why, in Forsake, when he thinks he is at home
before the resignation, he was intending to go to Janet's party and even
helped her pick a dress. Yet by later that morning (Arrival) he's
decided to resign, yelled at George Markstein, and gone off in a huff to
pack for a holiday and probably visit Madame Engadine's "famous party"
instead, en route. Lovers' tiff? Was Engadine the "other woman" and
Janet found out?? Questions, questions... I wouldn't be surprised if 6
was a bit of a cad (the quiet ones are the worst, and he's pretty quiet
about his private life).
Graeme
> My preferred order is as follows:
>
> Arrival
> Dance of the Dead
> Free For All
> Checkmate
> The General
> Schizoid Man
> Many Happy Returns
> It's Your Funeral
> Chimes of Big Ben
> Girl Who Was Death
> Change of Mind
> Do Not Forsake Me, Oh My Darling
> Living in Harmony
> Hammer Into Anvil
> A, B and C
> Once Upon a Time
> Fallout.
>
> I arranged them as I did because in the first four there are
> indications Number Six is new. He still believes he can beat the
> system and that he can trust some people.
That's an interesting criteria. He still believes he can trust some
people. I hadn't really looked at it exactly like that. Though I'm
not sure they should be arranged that way. If there are other real
prisoners there, and some of them have not been broken, then it's not
true that he can't trust anybody (though maybe he would think it's not
worth the risk).
I think the "new" references are overrated. If No. 6 was there for,
say, a year and a half, he'd still be "new" compared to the lifers.
You know how small towns are. You can live in one of those for 10
years and still have people think of you as an outsider.
As for Dance of the Dead, it's true that No. 6 says "I'm new here",
but there are also references to his NOT being new, such as "the maids
come and they go", and "that this man has broken rule after rule
cannot be denied." Also, the fact that the doctor has been waiting so
long to get at him that he loses patience and tries an unauthorized
treatment. For this reason, I don't think it can go as early as
second.
In fact, I think Dance of the Dead works perfectly where it's located
in both official orders: Right after Many Happy Returns. I can't
prove it, but I believe that the cat was inserted into Many Happy
Returns specifically to tie it to Dance of the Dead. I think the
episodes go together extremely well. After No. 6 disappears from his
apartment there is NO reason to try to make it look like he's died at
sea. On the other hand, after he's disappeared from a jet that was
flying OVER sea, it makes a LOT of sense to fake his death that way.
Remember, that his disappearance at the end of Many Happy Returns had
to be explained in some way to those who weren't in on it all. The
original pilot certainly was not in on it. How do you think they
explained it? Dance of the Dead gives us the answer.
> "The General"- "Chimes" is in that order because there was a Number 12
> in "The General" who was in the Village "quite a long time."
> Obviously, he had to be there before the Number 12 in "Schizoid Man."
I put no stock in that. Just because he's been in the organization a
long time doesn't mean he's been known as "No. 12" all that time.
Consider a similar example. In A.B.&C. we have No. 14. But last
week, No. 14 was an old lady in a wheelchair. Does that mean that
Katherine Kath's character never worked for the Village organization
before last week? Probably not. Probably they assigned her a new
number. Or maybe she worked somewhere where she had no number at all.
We can't draw any conclusions here. In fact, I PREFER The General
happening soon after Schizoid Man, for that reason. People do change
numbers (like No. 58 becoming No. 2). It's a great way to disorient
the prisoners. I only regret that we didn't see an explicit scene
like that. "Hey, weren't you No. 13 last week?" "You must be
imagining things, sir. I've ALWAYS been No. 98."
> "Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns" are back to back because the
> dates coincide.
I do agree with that. Putting The General IMMEDIATELY after Schizoid
Man is a pretty tight fit. And besides, why has No. 6 never heard of
Speedlearn before? It does work a bit better to think of Speedlearn
as something that sprung up while No. 6 was away.
> The remaining episodes show the efforts of the various Number Twos to
> get information from Number Six becoming more drastic and more
> desperate until Degree Absolute, which is why I've put "A, B & C"
> closer to the end.
I don't think it works there. As I say, I think that the whole
question of whether or not No. 6 was selling out has to be
definitively settled in the negative BEFORE plans like Chimes and Many
Happy Returns can be put into action.
>>"Do Not Forsake Me..." is placed in this group only because it take
place a year after Number Six is captured.
>>
If I were constructing my own order, I'd rip that one out entirely and
have it as a "Lost Episode". TWO trips to and disappearances from
London are just too much in such a short series.
> Of course, putting "A, B, & C" near the end means "The General" would
> have to come before it. On the other hand, in "The General," Number
> Two says he and Number Six are old friends, implying "A, B & C" came
> first. But then, on the third hand, if "A, B & C" came first, would
> Number Two get a second chance after his failure, to be there for "The
> General"?
Absolutely. It was a partial success. He learned that No. 6 was NOT
selling out. An extremely valuable piece of information.
>>Maybe, but given that he seems more nervous in "A, B & C",
> it seems more reasonable to assume THAT episode is his second chance,
> not "The General."
>>
I think the opposite. It looks to me like that guy was ALWAYS a
nervous nelly. Some people think that his milk drinking was due to
having an ulcer. The guy was terrified of his superiors for years,
then had a run-in with them and found that it wasn't as bad as he
thought. That made him cocky next time. Kind of like the kid who
dreads going to the doctor, and once it's over, brags about how brave
he was.
There just doesn't seem to be any way that he'd get another chance
after letting No. 6 destroy a valuable piece of hardware that he
should never have been allowed near in the first place. That would
get him in MUCH more trouble than a partial success like A. B. & C.
And when I try to imagine it the other way, that Gordon was ALWAYS a
cocky so-and-so, then became a nervous nelly over a run in with his
boss where nothing seems to have happened to him (he does get another
chance, after all), it just doesn't seem to work. Both official
orders put A. B. & C. first (as does the A&E order) and that's just
fine with me.
>>Plus the "old friends" comment could have referred to a pre-Village
association, for all we know.
>>
That's true. I put no more stock in that remark than the No. 12
comment earlier. Both could have many meanings.
> We also have to take into account the very real possibility that
> during the hectic pace of recording a TV series, certain details might
> get overlooked. If "A, B & C" was recorded first (I think it was, but
> am going from memory), Patrick McGoohan, et al might've decided they
> liked Colin Gordon and decided to bring him back again for "The
> General" without worrying about whether it was reasonable to expect
> that particular Number Two to get a second chance.
Actually, I've heard that The General was filmed first. Still, they
chose to place it afterwards, for whatever reason.
>>"Dance of the Dead", a contender for the second episode, was held
back until people had a better sense of what the show was about. This
despite the fact that Number Six's statement that "I'm new here"
becomes questionable with "Dance of the Dead" airing after episodes
like "Chimes of Big Ben", "Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns", all
of which take place over the course of several weeks.
>>
But he IS new there in the official order. He's just been dragged
BACK after spending over a month away. With his warped sense of
humor, he's now new again and can't be expected to obey the rules.
Works for me. And it may even be what they were thinking at the time.
> One curious thing about my own list. When I put it together, I already
> owned the book "The Official Prisoner Companion" by Matthew White and
> Jaffer Ali.
Interesting book. It seemed to go into and out of print very quickly.
Not sure why.
That book contains a list of the seven episodes McGoohan
> says "really count" and are arranged in his order:
> Arrival
> Free For All
> Dance of the Dead
> Checkmate
> Chimes of Big Ben
> Once Upon a Time
> Conclusion (Fall Out)
It's not really clear what "really count" means, though. Here we have
the Portmeirion episodes (which definitely count to me, just for that
reason), plus the finale, plus Chimes (which may be there just so that
the "I know you" comment will make sense, for all we know. Are these
the 7 best episodes, though? Maybe in McGoohan's opinion, but not
mine. There are no episodes that I wish had never been made, even the
lightweight Girl and Do Not Forsake Me. If I were going to streamline
the series to show it at an all-night party or something, and NEEDED
to knock a few episodes out to make it fit, I might knock out The
General, Do Not Forsake Me, It's Your Funeral, and Girl Who Was Death.
I'd seriously regret knocking any more. And even those 4 are good
episodes, well worth watching on their own.
>>Well, actually, as I said, "Chimes" belongs in the middle (of a 17
episode run) because Number Six is a master of the Game.
>>
The official order works better for me here. Put Checkmate AFTER
Chimes. It seems like the first instinct of a loner like No. 6 would
first try to find ONE person he could trust, and when that bombed, try
other things. Checkmate works better for me if it comes later. It's
a significant episode, in that he learns something important about how
to know who to trust and who not. Can't have him learning that too
early. Let him suffer through several failures first, so that
learning this really means something.
Frankymole
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:21cb2547.04022...@posting.google.com...
> but there are also references to his NOT being new, such as "the maids
> come and they go", and "that this man has broken rule after rule
> cannot be denied." Also, the fact that the doctor has been waiting so
> long to get at him that he loses patience and tries an unauthorized
> treatment. For this reason, I don't think it can go as early as
> second.
Mmm, but the other "new" reference in Dance is stronger than most: he is
asked by Dutton "how's London?" and replies "the same". Dutton has been
in the Village "a month, maybe two"; if Number Six been an inmate for
longer than those two months, his reply to the question "how's London?"
would've been "you tell me!".
Makes more sense to me than the fact a cat features in MHR ;o) but see
later...
> I put no stock in that. Just because he's been in the organization a
> long time doesn't mean he's been known as "No. 12" all that time.
> Consider a similar example. In A.B.&C. we have No. 14. But last
> week, No. 14 was an old lady in a wheelchair. Does that mean that
> Katherine Kath's character never worked for the Village organization
> before last week? Probably not.
Top man. I agree. It's Sheila Allen as No 14 btw (easily done - that
episodes full of gorgeous women, and Georgina Cookson ;oP).
> Probably they assigned her a new
> number. Or maybe she worked somewhere where she had no number at all.
There are 14 number two's in Free For All... (2a to 2l plus the two main
ones)...
> > "Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns" are back to back because the
> > dates coincide.
>
> I do agree with that. Putting The General IMMEDIATELY after Schizoid
> Man is a pretty tight fit. And besides, why has No. 6 never heard of
> Speedlearn before? It does work a bit better to think of Speedlearn
> as something that sprung up while No. 6 was away.
Then again, there's only been one course so far, and 6 doesn't exactly
take an interest in the doing of the Villagers, being somewhat aloof and
usually anti-social, sorry "unmutual" - maybe he was constructing his
woodland gymnasium ;o)
> > The remaining episodes show the efforts of the various Number Twos
to
> > get information from Number Six becoming more drastic and more
> > desperate until Degree Absolute, which is why I've put "A, B & C"
> > closer to the end.
>
> I don't think it works there. As I say, I think that the whole
> question of whether or not No. 6 was selling out has to be
> definitively settled in the negative BEFORE plans like Chimes and Many
> Happy Returns can be put into action.
The lethal untested drug and the fact it has to be done in a week imply
some desperation...
> There just doesn't seem to be any way that he'd get another chance
> after letting No. 6 destroy a valuable piece of hardware that he
> should never have been allowed near in the first place. That would
> get him in MUCH more trouble than a partial success like A. B. & C.
I doubt it... "be careful not to damage the tissue", "we mustn't damage
the tissue", "he could end up a vegetable and then we'll all be in
trouble" (Free, Dance). Risking 6's brain - nay, life - is far more of
a stupid error than wasting a teaching machine.
> Actually, I've heard that The General was filmed first. Still, they
> chose to place it afterwards, for whatever reason.
The research Andrew Pixley and Simon Coward did, including the in-studio
reports in Cinematograph journals showed AB&C was filmed in the two-week
block just before The General. But it doesn't really matter, as editing
etc would be back-to-back.
> >>"Dance of the Dead", a contender for the second episode, was held
> back until people had a better sense of what the show was about. This
> despite the fact that Number Six's statement that "I'm new here"
> becomes questionable with "Dance of the Dead" airing after episodes
> like "Chimes of Big Ben", "Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy Returns", all
> of which take place over the course of several weeks.
> >>
>
> But he IS new there in the official order. He's just been dragged
> BACK after spending over a month away. With his warped sense of
> humor, he's now new again and can't be expected to obey the rules.
> Works for me. And it may even be what they were thinking at the time.
Unlikely to have been intentional as MHR was the final script of the
first filming block, whereas Dance was one of the original batch. All
the main work on MHR was done 6 months after Dance. Dance was shelved
as PMG disliked it intensely.
> It's not really clear what "really count" means, though. Here we have
> the Portmeirion episodes (which definitely count to me, just for that
> reason), plus the finale, plus Chimes (which may be there just so that
> the "I know you" comment will make sense, for all we know.
It's there because it was one of the only 5 scripts they did principle
filming for in Portmeirion in September 1966. Therefore these "first 5"
are prominent in PMG's mind, as Exec Prod he had to do arrange the
logistics for them, probably got buried in the call sheets around that
time!
> The official order works better for me here. Put Checkmate AFTER
> Chimes. It seems like the first instinct of a loner like No. 6 would
> first try to find ONE person he could trust, and when that bombed, try
> other things. Checkmate works better for me if it comes later. It's
> a significant episode, in that he learns something important about how
> to know who to trust and who not. Can't have him learning that too
> early. Let him suffer through several failures first, so that
> learning this really means something.
Isn't Checkmate where he first learns to tell prisoners and warders
apart (or he tries: he's taught by The Man With The Stick (not Bob
Mortimer)).
Titan
>
>
> Racking my brain I think Mary Morris says of the opposition "an
> irritation we've dispensed with", so I am even happier that it must come
> after Free For All.
I like to think that Free For All's election is an anomaly - a grand sharade played out for
Number Six. Whether the entire community plays along, compliantly, or whether they believe in
the elections is another matter.
Or perhaps the Village has elections in Free For All and doesn't in Dance of the Dead? Not
that been "done away with", it's just that the reality of the Village is an ever-shifting
thing. On a thematic level this works well - with the criticisms of the bizarre fickleness
present in many aspects of society, things can be vitally important one day and forgotten the
next.
My reading has always been that the Village is highly inconsistent (apart from some staples
like trying to break Six, Rover, conformity etc.) - this makes it a much more uncertain and
threatening world.
It also fits in with Six's disorientation when he arrives - that rush of bizarre events and
surroundings - and the inexplicable/irreconcilable events in most of the episodes.
Titan
>
> I put no stock in that. Just because he's been in the organization a
> long time doesn't mean he's been known as "No. 12" all that time.
> Consider a similar example. In A.B.&C. we have No. 14. But last
> week, No. 14 was an old lady in a wheelchair. Does that mean that
> Katherine Kath's character never worked for the Village organization
> before last week? Probably not. Probably they assigned her a new
> number. Or maybe she worked somewhere where she had no number at all.
In fact, I wouldn't put it past the Village to have more than one person with the same number
at the same time (and not with differentiating letters like the journalist/photographer).
Keep everyone disoriented. In fact, I'd be amazed if they did have a rational numbering
scheme - very little else about the Village makes sense. Moreover, it really would stress the
fact that peoples' identities aren't important - the numbers aren't even numeric names - they
are utterly meaningless.
Frankymole
"Titan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> In article <c1flih$b6$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, Frank@Ask says...
> >
> >
> > Racking my brain I think Mary Morris says of the opposition "an
> > irritation we've dispensed with", so I am even happier that it must
come
> > after Free For All.
Yes, but Mary Morris says "the opposition is an irritation we've
dispensed with" to Number Six's face (and *only* to No 6). I can't see
him swallowing whole Eric Portman's "we have an election once a year"
and "everyone's entitled to choose" crap in that case. Anyway the Town
Hall stuff clinches it - in Free For All he walks straight to the
Information Board to find out where it is!!!
Seems one of the more clear-cut ones to me.
MicheleWln
KTEH in San Jose, California at that time. They showed them in this order:
1. Arrival
2. The Chimes of Big Bend
3. A, B & C
4. Free for All
5. Schizoid Man
6. The General
7. Many Happy Returns
8. Dance of the Dead
9. Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling
10. It's Your Funeral
11. Checkmate
12. Living In Harmony
13. A Change of Mind
14. Hammer Into Anvil
15. The Girl Who Was Death
16. Once Upon A Time
17. Fall Out
If I remeber correctly the rational for this order was that it showed a
progression in Number 6's behavior. He started by being a loner whose only
thought was to escape the Village. As he progressed he started to take more of
an interest in his fellow villagers and was starting to try to defeat the
system from within. By the end he had learned that he could defeat the system
and was no longer a Prisoner.
I have always felt that this made sense.
Michele
SKNavis
>thread,
>> Frank (too much to reahash here). Very interesting!
>
>Thank you again! Those kind of details interested me in the original
>debate back in Max's 1985 book. Now whenever I watch TV I'm always
>spotting such things (if they seem deliberate) which is a bit
>distracting.
>
Of course, something else just occurred to me and I hope it's not terribly
stupid. Do the seasonal aspects depend on a knowledge of where The Village is?
Is it all based on what the seasons are like at Portmeirion? Just
wondering...
Peace,
Shaun
SKNavis
>rebellion, see my last post - hadn't seen this when I sent it just now).
>Give me some time to digest (and maybe get this in the FAQ).
>
No problem, Frank! If you want, word for word, what the A&E EOD says I'll be
happy to transcribe it all for you. Meanwhile, I'll need to check your FAQ out
and see what other viewing options exist. Thanks for our thoughts on the
"phases" #6 goes through!
Peace,
Shaun
SKNavis
>"Chimes")
>Not if they don't want to "damage the tissue", surely - and these drugs
>are dangerously untested even on animals. Plus, the reason for the huge
>rush isn't apparent.
Good points. This probably should go later.
>> *Hammer Into Anvil (Again, #6 is self-assured and in command. A&E
>also places
>> it 11th to help people forget Patrick Cargill was in a previous
>episode!)
>Well, that's not a chronological reason, that's a viewing-order reason.
>Plus there are stacks of other episodes with recurring actors
I thought about that as well, but it's what they put on the box. Curious
reasoning. As I said, some of this stuff may just a matter of taste. Or
perhaps...
>> *Living In Harmony (Another desperate, drug-induced, attempt to break
>#6.
>> Also, #6 figures out the charade right away)
>Not as desperate as AB&C. For a start, this is a plan the young
>scientist (Kanner) says "it always worked before", unlike AB&C's lethal
>drug that No 14 warns Colin Gordon's No 2 that she hasn't even >had time
>to test on animals... plus, things are not as hurried here. I don't
>see why A&E reckon this plan is more dangerous/desperate than AB&C
>(except that 6of 1 told them so!).
LOL! I'm sure that's the ultimate rationalization for each epiosde's
placement. being a relative newbie, and an American one at that, I really
don't have any knowledge of the whole Six of One flap. I can certainly tell
that they don't speak for the free thinking fans who spend time here! The idea
of Six of One "bullying" the folks at A&E made me chuckle.
>> *Girl Who Was Death (Another easy victory for #6, and A&E sees it as a
>shot of
>> humor before the heavy final two eps)
>heavilty-reused sets and actors in Fall
>Out which it cheapens by being so close,
True.
> it doesn't work
>chronologically because if 6 had 14 episodes and over a year of seeing
>the Village has no children, no sane Village plan is going to try to
>convince him that thsoe kids "just
>happened" to be there needing a
>bedtime story.
That's also true, but the idea of a "sane" village might be the rub. At this
point, maybe they'll try any cockamamie idea they come up with?
>It stretched credultiy to its limits. Plus the plan is
>so simple (and cheap), just surveil No 6 as he tells a story
Well, yeah. I understand that thsi episode was made as something of a homage
to the Danger Man/Secret Agent series (which I have yet to see, so much of that
is lost on me). That aside, what was the rationalization for making this one?
I don't hate the episode, but I do think it's easily the weakest of the series
(even weaker than "Forsake"). Was it just something made on the fly, and on
the cheap, since (as you mention) time and money were in short supply?
>It's only ever shown late because (a) it's bonkers, and (b) it
>was made last (except for Fall Out) so ITC went around telling everyone
>to show it last, scared that it wouldn't be finished in time!
>I don't
>really care where this bit of fluff goes (it's often shown alone when TV
>stations want one episode to show 1960s madness), but please, not near
>Fall Out. >Never mind Patrick Cargill showing up 2 weeks on the trot (as
>filmed!) with Girl and Fall Out we get nearly the entire studio and cast
>cropping up 2 weeks later!!!
You make a good case for placing this early in the series. I'd never
considered it since it seems like everyone shows this right at the end of the
run, whatever the reasons. One could sure make a case for skipping it
altogether of course, but I confess I like the surprise (at least the first
time you see the episode) of having the children show up at the end. It all
looks so nice and sweet, but the ramifications of it all are really quite
chilling.
>In conclusion, the A&E order isn't bad. There's not much that makes me
>want to rant (except the Girl placing of course!). Each to their own of
>course!
As I've said, it works for me. Still, you've given me reason to rethink this a
bit. Juggling the order a bit sounds like fun, and of course it gives me
another excuse for watching the series again. Now if I could just get my wife
to watch it with me...
Peace,
Shaun
Rick
>
> >
> It's not really clear what "really count" means, though.
Patrick McGoohan intended to make The Prisoner as a seven episode
serial instead of a series. Lew Grade wanted 26 episodes so he could
sell it to stations for re-run syndication. They compromised. The
"really counts" comment, which is a quote from the book, The Official
Prisoner Companion, refer to the seven episodes McGoohan had
originally intended to comprise the entire series.
Again, they are (in McGoohan's order):
Arrival
Free For All
Dance of the Dead
Checkmate
Chimes of Big Ben
Once Upon a Time
Conclusion (Fall Out)
An interesting question arises, if that was all that there was of the
Prisoner, would the series still have endured? They're all good
episodes, but would the series have had the same impact?
On the one hand, probably not, since the conclusion would have been
filmed much earlier than Fall Out was, and George Markstein and
several crew members would probably not yet have left. As a result,
the final story probably wouldn't have quite been the "Fall Out" we
saw. There's no way to know for sure, of course, just an educated
guess.
On the other hand, I think the series would still have had something
of an impact. It may not have been as immediate as the full 17 episode
run, and it may have taken longer for the series to permeate the
international consciousness and become a part of pop culture (i.e.
references on "The Simpsons"), but it wouldn't have vanished and been
forgotten.
Be seeing you.
Rick
Titan
>
> "Titan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1aa5d3eb1...@text.news.ntlworld.com...
> > In article <c1flih$b6$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, Frank@Ask says...
> > >
> > >
> > > Racking my brain I think Mary Morris says of the opposition "an
> > > irritation we've dispensed with", so I am even happier that it must
> come
> > > after Free For All.
>
> Yes, but Mary Morris says "the opposition is an irritation we've
> dispensed with" to Number Six's face (and *only* to No 6). I can't see
> him swallowing whole Eric Portman's "we have an election once a year"
> and "everyone's entitled to choose" crap in that case. Anyway the Town
> Hall stuff clinches it - in Free For All he walks straight to the
> Information Board to find out where it is!!!
>
> Seems one of the more clear-cut ones to me.
>
Yes, but you're assuming the world of the Prisoner is consistent from episode to episode. I
maintain that it isn't (or, at least, that a lack of consistency is a valid reading of the
series).
Of course, ordering the episodes is fun, and it draws out lots of good points. However, an
equally valid argument is "the reality of the Village is always shifting".
Graeme
> Mmm, but the other "new" reference in Dance is stronger than most: he is
> asked by Dutton "how's London?" and replies "the same". Dutton has been
> in the Village "a month, maybe two"; if Number Six been an inmate for
> longer than those two months, his reply to the question "how's London?"
> would've been "you tell me!".
>
> Makes more sense to me than the fact a cat features in MHR ;o) but see
> later...
That's true, though if No. 6 has been away for a month and just been
returned, Dutton could have been brought in right after he left, and
been worked over quite a bit. No. 6 would still have more recent
knowledge of London than Dutton. I realize that Dance of the Dead was
one of the 4 episodes written by people who believed that they were
writing Episode 2. But at some point, they reassigned it to the #8
spot, and left it there for the US ordering, changing the original
intention. I think it works okay there, maybe even better than where
it was originally intended, and doesn't cry out to be changed.
>>It's Sheila Allen as No 14 btw (easily done - that episodes full of
gorgeous women, and Georgina Cookson ;oP).
>>
I thought as soon as I hit Send that I'd made a mistake there.
>>Probably they assigned her a new number. Or maybe she worked
somewhere where she had no number at all.
There are 14 number two's in Free For All... (2a to 2l plus the two
main ones)...
>>
Not to mention the No. 113 and No. 113b oddity. Speaking of people
changing numbers, one would assume that if they stopped working
together, No. 113b would have been assigned a new number.
>>The lethal untested drug and the fact it has to be done in a week
imply some desperation...
>>
There's certainly an urgency to get some results right NOW. Though my
impression is that the potentially lethal drug was No. 2's method of
trying to comply with the order, rather than something that No. 1
ordered.
There could be urgency right at the beginning. If they're used to
getting information quickly, the fact that this guy has dared to
resist them at all could be viewed as a reason to slap him down hard
and fast. When this fails, it might become obvious that they're in
for an extended battle with No. 6.
> I doubt it... "be careful not to damage the tissue", "we mustn't damage
> the tissue", "he could end up a vegetable and then we'll all be in
> trouble" (Free, Dance). Risking 6's brain - nay, life - is far more of
> a stupid error than wasting a teaching machine.
Well, if No. 6 actually had been damaged, the game would surely have
been up for Colin Gordon. The risks that had been involved were
probably minimized in the report.
It looked to me like No. 1 said "Get some results NOW", without
specifying how, and No. 2 took it upon himself to take a significant
risk in order to achieve that. After it was over, he probably either
concealed the risks, or justified them by necessity, the fact that he
got SOME results, and the fact that there was no damage done. But
what he did in The General was just plain stupid.
> Unlikely to have been intentional as MHR was the final script of the
> first filming block, whereas Dance was one of the original batch. All
> the main work on MHR was done 6 months after Dance. Dance was shelved
> as PMG disliked it intensely.
If he disliked it intensely, what does he mean by saying it "really
counts"? Anyway, I can't say for sure what they were thinking, I just
think that, by accident or design, the choice of putting MHR
immediately after DotD works very well for me.
> Isn't Checkmate where he first learns to tell prisoners and warders
> apart (or he tries: he's taught by The Man With The Stick (not Bob
> Mortimer)).
Yeah, which is why I want to put that late. He basically learns the
lesson of how to tell prisoners from warders himself. He only gets
hung up on the tiny matter of ensuring that they can learn the same
thing about him. It's still useful for HIM to know, though, which is
why this should come late, after he's come to a lot of grief from not
being able to tell. In Hammer Into Anvil (Ep. 14 in the US Order), he
seems to have learned the lesson pretty well. He appears to know
fully well that the storekeeper is a warder, for example. That's not
100% clear, but it looked that way to me.
Graeme
> serial instead of a series. Lew Grade wanted 26 episodes so he could
> sell it to stations for re-run syndication. They compromised.
Is it really clear that McGoohan had ever wanted to do only 7
episodes? Or did he just say after the fact that he wished there had
been only 7? Surely all 7 of thosethose episodes didn't already exist
in story outline when he pitched the series.
>>The "really counts" comment, which is a quote from the book, The
Official Prisoner Companion, refer to the seven episodes McGoohan had
originally intended to comprise the entire series.
>
> Again, they are (in McGoohan's order):
> Arrival
> Free For All
> Dance of the Dead
> Checkmate
> Chimes of Big Ben
> Once Upon a Time
> Conclusion (Fall Out)
If I were going to show only those 7 episodes, I'd switch the
positions of Checkmate and Chimes. I still see Checkmate as the
culimination of No. 6's efforts to distinguish prisoners from warders,
so it feels wrong to see him get hung up on the same question in the
very next episode.
It also feels wrong to have Once Upon a Time immediately after Chimes.
The whole "I know your voice", "I've been here before" sequence feels
wrong, because it looks as though Leo McKern has never been away. Of
course we can say that he has been away by assuming that a lot of time
passed between the two episodes during which he left and has now come
back. But that just feels wrong too. With so few episodes we
wouldn't want to have any large, unexplained gaps.
> On the one hand, probably not, since the conclusion would have been
> filmed much earlier than Fall Out was, and George Markstein and
> several crew members would probably not yet have left. As a result,
> the final story probably wouldn't have quite been the "Fall Out" we
> saw. There's no way to know for sure, of course, just an educated
> guess.
It depends how responsible you think Fall Out is for the series'
endurance. I liked it, but I thought it was 3 acts of boredom and 1
act of great art. I think the series would have been almost as
memorable without it, or with a different finale. But milage varies.
A really pedestrian James-Bond style "Take out Blofeld" finale might
have taken a lot of steam out of things.
> On the other hand, I think the series would still have had something
> of an impact. It may not have been as immediate as the full 17 episode
> run, and it may have taken longer for the series to permeate the
> international consciousness and become a part of pop culture (i.e.
> references on "The Simpsons"), but it wouldn't have vanished and been
> forgotten.
>
> Be seeing you.
>
> Rick
Maybe, though I don't think there are any episodes there that
positively hurt the show. At least not individually. My only problem
with the series as a whole is that far too many episodes, 10 out of
17, or over 40%, take place mostly away from the Village.
We have Many Happy Returns and Do Not Forsake Me which are REALLY away
from the Village. Once Upon a Time and Fall Out which take place
beneath the Village, but definitely away from the whole Village
environment. Then we have A. B. & C., Living in Harmony, and Girl Who
Was Death, that technically take place inside the Village, but in
virtual reality states that have nothing to do with the Village
environment. For such a short series, that's just too much time away
from the place that's supposed to be the main focus. Even though
they're all good episodes by themselves, I'd like to lop one off just
to increase the ratio of Village time in the series. I'd nominate Do
Not Forsake Me for that role, even though I more or less like it.
roger
> Is it really clear that McGoohan had ever wanted to do only 7
> episodes?
Never.
> Or did he just say after the fact that he wished there had
> been only 7?
Yes.
> Surely all 7 of those episodes didn't already exist
> in story outline when he pitched the series.
Of course not.
www.priz.biz
for Prisoner publications, badges, mugs, keyring, CD and DVD.
redcat
"roger" <road...@NOSPAMpriz.biz> wrote in message
news:Oy9%b.199$%T3...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> "Graeme" <graem...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:21cb2547.04022...@posting.google.com...
> > UD...@yahoo.com (Rick) wrote in message
> news:<9fd2355f.04022...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > Is it really clear that McGoohan had ever wanted to do only 7
> > episodes?
>
> Never.
So, how did this story evolve, Roger?
redcat
Shop Here:
roger
"redcat" <red...@ixSPAMNOnetcom.com> wrote in message
news:OC9%b.21551$hm4....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "roger" <road...@NOSPAMpriz.biz> wrote in message
> news:Oy9%b.199$%T3...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Graeme" <graem...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:21cb2547.04022...@posting.google.com...
> > > UD...@yahoo.com (Rick) wrote in message
> > news:<9fd2355f.04022...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > > Is it really clear that McGoohan had ever wanted to do only 7
> > > episodes?
> >
> > Never.
>
> So, how did this story evolve, Roger?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
:-)
Jack Shampan spoke of receiving 3 or 4 scripts to initiate the artwork.
George Markstein was looking at two or three batches of 13 episodes and
recruiting script-writers accordingly - this is why there are
inconsistencies that make a linear episode order so troublesome. 'Once Upon
A Time' was the first episode to be 'canned', because there was relatively
little post-production work to be done on it. Rick's observation that 17
episodes created more impact and tension than ever 7 would is I'm sure
right. There were only 3 tv channels in the UK in 1967/68. Millions of
people watched every episode, waiting each week for the ultimate escape or
the revelation of Number One. Grade would never have commissioned a 7
episode serial.
Frankymole
news:<c1gd1o$hcl$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > Mmm, but the other "new" reference in Dance is stronger than most:
he is
> > asked by Dutton "how's London?" and replies "the same". Dutton has
been
> > in the Village "a month, maybe two"; if Number Six been an inmate
for
> > longer than those two months, his reply to the question "how's
London?"
> > would've been "you tell me!".
> >
> > Makes more sense to me than the fact a cat features in MHR ;o) but
see
> > later...
>
> That's true, though if No. 6 has been away for a month and just been
> returned, Dutton could have been brought in right after he left, and
> been worked over quite a bit. No. 6 would still have more recent
> knowledge of London than Dutton.
Worked over by whom (in a deserted Village) - the cat? ;o)
How would Dutton know P had been in London? He was the lowest of the
low, being interrogated msot of the time. I don't even think he was in
the Village organisation. Plus, if he'd been abducted AFTER Number Six,
he would know No 6 disappeared/"defected" first. Dance can only work
before MHR.
>
> >>Probably they assigned her a new number. Or maybe she worked
> somewhere where she had no number at all.
>
> There are 14 number two's in Free For All... (2a to 2l plus the two
> main ones)...
> >>
>
> Not to mention the No. 113 and No. 113b oddity. Speaking of people
> changing numbers, one would assume that if they stopped working
> together, No. 113b would have been assigned a new number.
No 113a may be the clone of No 113b we see seconds later selling the
Tally Ho. And how come later, during the confetti scene aoutside the
Labour Exchange, "my photographic colleague" has swapped jobs with the
reporter No 113, who is cameraman to his interviewer?? WEIRD!!
> > I doubt it... "be careful not to damage the tissue", "we mustn't
damage
> > the tissue", "he could end up a vegetable and then we'll all be in
> > trouble" (Free, Dance). Risking 6's brain - nay, life - is far more
of
> > a stupid error than wasting a teaching machine.
>
> Well, if No. 6 actually had been damaged, the game would surely have
> been up for Colin Gordon. The risks that had been involved were
> probably minimized in the report.
The huge hotline phone that rings after every mistake (same one as in
the Hammer) implies to me that No 1 is keeping this Number Two under
close observation - probably after a previous cock-up.
> It looked to me like No. 1 said "Get some results NOW", without
> specifying how, and No. 2 took it upon himself to take a significant
> risk in order to achieve that.
Yes, and without specifying to be careful as in the early episodes where
huge care is taken over not damaging "the tissue". I think Numbe rOne
is so short of time in Once Upon A Time that the same thing happens.
This means AB&C must come late too (and its certainly well after
Schizoid Man, as Sheila Allen is reading an old copy of the Tally Ho
from that episode, where it was a plot point).
> After it was over, he probably either
> concealed the risks, or justified them by necessity, the fact that he
> got SOME results, and the fact that there was no damage done. But
> what he did in The General was just plain stupid.
Who watches the watchers? I don't think somewhere as surveillance-heavy
as The Village is going to allow risks to be concealed from No 1 - he
sees all (hence the All-Seeing Eye symbol in the Council Chamber!)
Anyway he'd only have to ask No 14 in de-briefing.
> > Unlikely to have been intentional as MHR was the final script of the
> > first filming block, whereas Dance was one of the original batch.
All
> > the main work on MHR was done 6 months after Dance. Dance was
shelved
> > as PMG disliked it intensely.
>
> If he disliked it intensely, what does he mean by saying it "really
> counts"?
It wa sone of the only 5 scripts they had when principal photography
started, I guess. But as roger's pointed out, there were never intended
to be 7 episodes that "really count". And he didn't dislike it until he
shelved it, AFTER studio filming and before John S. Smith rescued it.
> Anyway, I can't say for sure what they were thinking, I just
> think that, by accident or design, the choice of putting MHR
> immediately after DotD works very well for me.
Good!
> > Isn't Checkmate where he first learns to tell prisoners and warders
> > apart (or he tries: he's taught by The Man With The Stick (not Bob
> > Mortimer)).
>
> Yeah, which is why I want to put that late. He basically learns the
> lesson of how to tell prisoners from warders himself. He only gets
> hung up on the tiny matter of ensuring that they can learn the same
> thing about him. It's still useful for HIM to know, though, which is
> why this should come late, after he's come to a lot of grief from not
> being able to tell. In Hammer Into Anvil (Ep. 14 in the US Order), he
> seems to have learned the lesson pretty well. He appears to know
> fully well that the storekeeper is a warder, for example. That's not
> 100% clear, but it looked that way to me.
That's fine but breaks the thematic development used by (say) A&E who
see the "trying to escape" phase as early and the "break the Village
form within" coming later - Checkmate is clearly the archetypal "trying
to escape" episode. No 6 also seems non-plussed by things he would know
well in his second summer - the Pavlovian hospital treatments, the
advanced electronics/surveillance transistor. It jsut doesn't work for
me as being over a year after his abduction, for me it has to be his
first summer not his second. I also think his "Free For All" speeches
are forefront in his mind, as clearly shown in the word association.
But each to their own.
Frankymole
news:<c1gd1o$hcl$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > Mmm, but the other "new" reference in Dance is stronger than most:
he is
> > asked by Dutton "how's London?" and replies "the same". Dutton has
been
> > in the Village "a month, maybe two"; if Number Six been an inmate
for
> > longer than those two months, his reply to the question "how's
London?"
> > would've been "you tell me!".
> >
> > Makes more sense to me than the fact a cat features in MHR ;o) but
see
> > later...
>
> That's true, though if No. 6 has been away for a month and just been
> returned, Dutton could have been brought in right after he left, and
> been worked over quite a bit. No. 6 would still have more recent
> knowledge of London than Dutton.
Worked over by whom (in a deserted Village) - the cat? ;o)
How would Dutton know P had been in London? He was the lowest of the
low, being interrogated msot of the time. I don't even think he was in
the Village organisation. Plus, if he'd been abducted AFTER Number Six,
he would know No 6 disappeared/"defected" first. Dance can only work
before MHR.
>
> >>Probably they assigned her a new number. Or maybe she worked
> somewhere where she had no number at all.
>
> There are 14 number two's in Free For All... (2a to 2l plus the two
> main ones)...
> >>
>
> Not to mention the No. 113 and No. 113b oddity. Speaking of people
> changing numbers, one would assume that if they stopped working
> together, No. 113b would have been assigned a new number.
No 113a may be the clone of No 113b we see seconds later selling the
Tally Ho. And how come later, during the confetti scene aoutside the
Labour Exchange, "my photographic colleague" has swapped jobs with the
reporter No 113, who is cameraman to his interviewer?? WEIRD!!
> > I doubt it... "be careful not to damage the tissue", "we mustn't
damage
> > the tissue", "he could end up a vegetable and then we'll all be in
> > trouble" (Free, Dance). Risking 6's brain - nay, life - is far more
of
> > a stupid error than wasting a teaching machine.
>
> Well, if No. 6 actually had been damaged, the game would surely have
> been up for Colin Gordon. The risks that had been involved were
> probably minimized in the report.
The huge hotline phone that rings after every mistake (same one as in
the Hammer) implies to me that No 1 is keeping this Number Two under
close observation - probably after a previous cock-up.
> It looked to me like No. 1 said "Get some results NOW", without
> specifying how, and No. 2 took it upon himself to take a significant
> risk in order to achieve that.
Yes, and without specifying to be careful as in the early episodes where
huge care is taken over not damaging "the tissue". I think Numbe rOne
is so short of time in Once Upon A Time that the same thing happens.
This means AB&C must come late too (and its certainly well after
Schizoid Man, as Sheila Allen is reading an old copy of the Tally Ho
from that episode, where it was a plot point).
> After it was over, he probably either
> concealed the risks, or justified them by necessity, the fact that he
> got SOME results, and the fact that there was no damage done. But
> what he did in The General was just plain stupid.
Who watches the watchers? I don't think somewhere as surveillance-heavy
as The Village is going to allow risks to be concealed from No 1 - he
sees all (hence the All-Seeing Eye symbol in the Council Chamber!)
Anyway he'd only have to ask No 14 in de-briefing.
> > Unlikely to have been intentional as MHR was the final script of the
> > first filming block, whereas Dance was one of the original batch.
All
> > the main work on MHR was done 6 months after Dance. Dance was
shelved
> > as PMG disliked it intensely.
>
> If he disliked it intensely, what does he mean by saying it "really
> counts"?
It wa sone of the only 5 scripts they had when principal photography
started, I guess. But as roger's pointed out, there were never intended
to be 7 episodes that "really count". And he didn't dislike it until he
shelved it, AFTER studio filming and before John S. Smith rescued it.
> Anyway, I can't say for sure what they were thinking, I just
> think that, by accident or design, the choice of putting MHR
> immediately after DotD works very well for me.
Good!
> > Isn't Checkmate where he first learns to tell prisoners and warders
> > apart (or he tries: he's taught by The Man With The Stick (not Bob
> > Mortimer)).
>
> Yeah, which is why I want to put that late. He basically learns the
> lesson of how to tell prisoners from warders himself. He only gets
> hung up on the tiny matter of ensuring that they can learn the same
> thing about him. It's still useful for HIM to know, though, which is
> why this should come late, after he's come to a lot of grief from not
> being able to tell. In Hammer Into Anvil (Ep. 14 in the US Order), he
> seems to have learned the lesson pretty well. He appears to know
> fully well that the storekeeper is a warder, for example. That's not
> 100% clear, but it looked that way to me.
That's fine but breaks the thematic development used by (say) A&E who
see the "trying to escape" phase as early and the "break the Village
form within" coming later - Checkmate is clearly the archetypal "trying
to escape" episode. No 6 also seems non-plussed by things he would know
well in his second summer - the Pavlovian hospital treatments, the
advanced electronics/surveillance transistor. It jsut doesn't work for
me as being over a year after his abduction, for me it has to be his
first summer not his second. I also think his "Free For All" speeches
are forefront in his mind, as clearly shown in the word association.
But each to their own.
--
Frankymole
"Titan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
You're entitled to your opinion, but in that case why not leave the
episode ordering debate to those who want to have it? :o)
Frankymole
We know it's northern hemisphere (the Triquetrum scene, AND the MHR
scenes kept in that show 6 navigating circa 1700 miles to Beachy
Head...). So the seasons aren't southern hemisphere ones if that's what
you're getting at ;o)
Frankymole
"MicheleWln" <miche...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040224202327...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Actually that's just the standard order used in the US, and intended by
ITC for the UK before post-production hit problems.
Frankymole
> LOL! I'm sure that's the ultimate rationalization for each epiosde's
> placement. being a relative newbie, and an American one at that, I
really
> don't have any knowledge of the whole Six of One flap. I can
certainly tell
> that they don't speak for the free thinking fans who spend time here!
The idea
> of Six of One "bullying" the folks at A&E made me chuckle.
I think A&E used it voluntarily, but it was indeed Max Hora's order
(unless he was being puppeteered by Langley). I think a US cable
station also ran the series in that order over a weekend once.
> Well, yeah. I understand that thsi episode was made as something of a
homage
> to the Danger Man/Secret Agent series (which I have yet to see, so
much of that
> is lost on me). That aside, what was the rationalization for making
this one?
> I don't hate the episode, but I do think it's easily the weakest of
the series
> (even weaker than "Forsake"). Was it just something made on the fly,
and on
> the cheap, since (as you mention) time and money were in short supply?
The story is that it was an unused Danger Man season 4 outline that got
adapted to The Prisoner. More certain is that once (re)writing of it
for The Prisoner was underway, the production team wanted to expand it
to two episodes (padding out the series). Luckily, they were so close
to transmission by then that there wasn't time to make it as a
two-parter. This episode (Girl) was being filmed scant weeks before it
was due to be shown, as was Fall Out, and since the budget was squeezed
tighter than a tight thing by then, I guess panic had set in! (They'd
been short of story ideas for many months too, following Markstein's
resignation as script editor, which is why junior production crew
members were asked to submit script outlines, and Ian L Rakoff - an
assistant editor - got to write Harmony, lucky man! No doubt this lack
of scripts also made them resort to an old Danger Man script (possibly)
and try to stretch it to two parts (probably)).
> >In conclusion, the A&E order isn't bad. There's not much that makes
me
> >want to rant (except the Girl placing of course!). Each to their own
of
> >course!
>
> As I've said, it works for me. Still, you've given me reason to
rethink this a
> bit. Juggling the order a bit sounds like fun, and of course it
gives me
> another excuse for watching the series again.
Yes, it is good fun. Spotting minor details but also reviewing the
thematic development as a whole. Recommended most for anal-retentives
though :o)
Now if I could just get my wife
> to watch it with me...
I know the feeling! Think I should have shown her The Avengers first,
she likes that... (my wife, not yours, I mean!)
Frankymole
> > Arrival
> > Free For All
> > Dance of the Dead
> > Checkmate
> > Chimes of Big Ben
> > Once Upon a Time
> > Conclusion (Fall Out)
>
> If I were going to show only those 7 episodes, I'd switch the
> positions of Checkmate and Chimes. I still see Checkmate as the
> culimination of No. 6's efforts to distinguish prisoners from warders,
> so it feels wrong to see him get hung up on the same question in the
> very next episode.
I see where you're coming from, but it's really only one prisoner
(Nadia) and they've gone to huge efforts to make her seem a Prisoner.
This isn't the inadvertant "arrogance" trait that No 6 uses to discern
the low-rank village agents disguised as painters. She's a skilled spy
and a lot of resource and planning has gone into the scheme (also, since
Wyngarde reveals that he knows No 6 used his technique and the Rook
turned it upon No 6 himself, then Nadia and MxcKern can easily know what
to avoid). Plus if you want my annoying seasonal reasons in Checkmate
it's warm enough to bathe, in Chimes at first no-one but Nadia goes in
the sea and later (6 weeks on) it's clearly autumn in the woods and the
Exhibition Hall plaza tree is abre. :oD
> It also feels wrong to have Once Upon a Time immediately after Chimes.
> The whole "I know your voice", "I've been here before" sequence feels
> wrong, because it looks as though Leo McKern has never been away. Of
> course we can say that he has been away by assuming that a lot of time
> passed between the two episodes during which he left and has now come
> back. But that just feels wrong too. With so few episodes we
> wouldn't want to have any large, unexplained gaps.
True - lucky there's another nine or ten episodes to slot in there
> > On the one hand, probably not, since the conclusion would have been
> > filmed much earlier than Fall Out was, and George Markstein and
> > several crew members would probably not yet have left. As a result,
> > the final story probably wouldn't have quite been the "Fall Out" we
> > saw. There's no way to know for sure, of course, just an educated
> > guess.
All we can be certain of is that No 1 would prbably be revealed to be No
6 (David Tomblin's comments that he always suspected it, and early
episode script hints).
> Maybe, though I don't think there are any episodes there that
> positively hurt the show. At least not individually. My only problem
> with the series as a whole is that far too many episodes, 10 out of
> 17, or over 40%, take place mostly away from the Village.
>
> We have Many Happy Returns and Do Not Forsake Me which are REALLY away
> from the Village. Once Upon a Time and Fall Out which take place
> beneath the Village, but definitely away from the whole Village
> environment. Then we have A. B. & C., Living in Harmony, and Girl Who
> Was Death, that technically take place inside the Village, but in
> virtual reality states that have nothing to do with the Village
> environment. For such a short series, that's just too much time away
> from the place that's supposed to be the main focus. Even though
> they're all good episodes by themselves, I'd like to lop one off just
> to increase the ratio of Village time in the series. I'd nominate Do
> Not Forsake Me for that role, even though I more or less like it.
I found Fall Out and Once Upon A Time to be good "Village" episodes, in
that a village is more than a collection of buildings. The true essence
of "community" (in all its sinister ramifications) is in McKern's
bullying headmaster's moralistic graduation day speech, the "bank
manager" job interview, and No 48's rebellion against the 'societal
norms' exhorted to him by the President (norms made especially ironic as
it is the most abnormal society I can imagine - in conclave with a huge
eye hundreds of metres underground!!!.
Steve Dix
the group.com> wrote:
>two-parter. This episode (Girl) was being filmed scant weeks before it
>was due to be shown, as was Fall Out, and since the budget was squeezed
>tighter than a tight thing by then, I guess panic had set in!
I remember that at the Thatched Barn event, the editors said that Fall
Out literally went in the telecine machine wet from the developing
bath!
--
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UKMG/(B)R[6x-]!M!S(J)(F) E8?1A4?2B2K1 GAS+ C= P= G= B+ R+/= M+ S++(--) r-(--)
MicheleWln
for the UK before post-production hit problems.>
KTEH actually was quite into The Prisoner and had a discussion panel after each
show on the episodes and a round table discussion after showing the whole
series. On of the things discussed was why that particular episode was where it
was at in the showing.
This was shown just a few years ago and they could show the episodes in any
order they wanted to.
Michele
Frankymole
"Steve Dix" <st...@stevedix.de> wrote in message
news:tnar30t8g0aab9rgg...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 04:49:48 -0000, "Frankymole" <Frank@Ask for it on
> the group.com> wrote:
>
>
> >two-parter. This episode (Girl) was being filmed scant weeks before
it
> >was due to be shown, as was Fall Out, and since the budget was
squeezed
> >tighter than a tight thing by then, I guess panic had set in!
>
> I remember that at the Thatched Barn event, the editors said that Fall
> Out literally went in the telecine machine wet from the developing
> bath!
And the sound editing must have been straight onto the primary print -
that editing lady (whose name I can't recall) was literally in tears
when the 'closing' music (actually the opening theme, to align with 6
being back in the first shot from Arrival) was cut in too early and the
thunderclap overlaid Leo McKern walking into the House of Lords...
McGoohan said he loved it! She was upset because she knew it was an
irreversible mistake - editing was so rushed. A happy accident...
Frankymole
Evidently they agreed with Andrew Pixley that the original was best :o)
SKNavis
>scenes kept in that show 6 navigating circa 1700 miles to Beachy
>Head...). So the seasons aren't southern hemisphere ones if that's what
>you're getting at ;o)
Well, that's more or less what I was wondering, and you've pointed out two
examples that I'd forgotten about! Never mind! Perhaps a still tongue DOES
make for happy life. ;-)
Peace,
Shaun
MicheleWln
I know some of the people fropm KTEH and none of them have ever mentioned and I
doubt even know who this person is. It should be noted that on one the old
Prisoner Fact List this order was called the KTEH order of episodes.
Michele
Graeme
> with the series as a whole is that far too many episodes, 10 out of
> 17, or over 40%, take place mostly away from the Village.
>>
Sorry, should have said SEVEN out of 17.
Graeme
>>Worked over by whom (in a deserted Village) - the cat? ;o)
Do you think the Village was deserted for the entire time that P was
away? The episode doesn't say, obviously, but I always sort of
assumed that everyone came out of hiding after he'd left, lived their
lives normally for the next month, and then everything was set up
again when they knew he was coming back.
Though, even if the Village really was deserted all that time, the
Village exterior doesn't seem to be where people are worked over
anyway. Dutton could have been in the hospital or one of the
underground complexes. The Villagers had to be kept SOMEWHERE for
that month, after all.
>>How would Dutton know P had been in London?
Again, I don't *know* obviously, but it could have been the same way
that No. 73 (?) knew what her husband had been up to with his
mistress. (i.e. somebody from the Village volunteered the information
for one reason or another).
>>Plus, if he'd been abducted AFTER Number Six, he would know No 6
disappeared/"defected" first.
>>
He might. Or he might not. I've had times at my own work where I
suddenly noticed that someone was missing, and when I asked about it,
found that they'd been gone for months and I hadn't realized it. You
can criticize my powers of observation, but it seems like a reasonable
mistake to make here, given that P was often off on assignments for
long periods of time anyway, and it's not something that would have
been talked about much at the office.
>>Dance can only work before MHR.
It *can* work there, but I don't think it can only work there.
>
> No 113a may be the clone of No 113b we see seconds later selling the
> Tally Ho. And how come later, during the confetti scene aoutside the
> Labour Exchange, "my photographic colleague" has swapped jobs with the
> reporter No 113, who is cameraman to his interviewer?? WEIRD!!
> The huge hotline phone that rings after every mistake (same one as in
> the Hammer) implies to me that No 1 is keeping this Number Two under
> close observation - probably after a previous cock-up.
Maybe, or maybe not. I don't think No. 1 sees everything (though he
wants his subordinates to think that). If Colin were such a security
risk that he couldn't be trusted on his own at all, there'd be little
point in giving him another chance.
Assuming that the wonder drug is used on the direct orders of No. 1
seems to take a lot of the steam out of the episode for me. No. 2
isn't taking a big gamble any more, only following orders that he has
no choice but to obey. Yeah, he might still get blamed for it if
something goes wrong, but a lot of the tension is gone.
> Yes, and without specifying to be careful as in the early episodes where
> huge care is taken over not damaging "the tissue".
Maybe he IS specifying it, but No. 2 is violating this directive as
part of his gamble. In this case, No. 1 may or may not know that his
order is being violated, but if so, he isn't acting... yet. By the
same token, No. 1 might possibly have known what No. 6 was up to in
Hammer Into Anvil, but if he did, he decided to watch and see what
would happen rather than interfering with it.
>>I think NumberOne is so short of time in Once Upon A Time that the
same thing happens.
>>
But why the sudden urgency? Apart from general annoyance, of course.
But here's a problem with that. If you're suggesting that A. B. & C.
is late in the show, and No. 1 knows all about and approves of the
wonder drug use, then why is he so reluctant to allow Degree Absolute
soon afterwards? It looks to me like the same pattern in both
episodes. No. 1 wants results without risk, and Gordon and McKern
realize that there HAVE to be some risks to get any results with this
guy. McKern lays it out on the table and demands that the risks be
taken, Gordon tries to take them secretly.
> This means AB&C must come late too (and its certainly well after
> Schizoid Man, as Sheila Allen is reading an old copy of the Tally Ho
> from that episode, where it was a plot point).
Maybe. That's a good point. Though as I recall, the headline was "Is
No. 2 Fit For Further Term?". Though I wouldn't be surprised if that
headline got used a lot to further the illusion of democracy. That's
a stretch, I know, but it seems almost as odd to imagine that she had
dug up an old paper from the archives or somewhere to relax over
coffee with. If they can change the position of the knocker on No.
2's door just to confuse people, I wouldn't be surprised at them
re-running old headlines.
> Who watches the watchers? I don't think somewhere as surveillance-heavy
> as The Village is going to allow risks to be concealed from No 1 - he
> sees all (hence the All-Seeing Eye symbol in the Council Chamber!)
> Anyway he'd only have to ask No 14 in de-briefing.
Well, the risks being taken at the beginning of Dance of the Dead were
concealed from No. 1 and No. 2. She just seemed to stumble in on it.
And nobody was watching when No. 6 "cured" himself in Schizoid Man. I
don't think security in the Village is quite as tight as they'd like
you to think.
> That's fine but breaks the thematic development used by (say) A&E who
> see the "trying to escape" phase as early and the "break the Village
> form within" coming later - Checkmate is clearly the archetypal "trying
> to escape" episode. No 6 also seems non-plussed by things he would know
> well in his second summer - the Pavlovian hospital treatments, the
> advanced electronics/surveillance transistor. It jsut doesn't work for
> me as being over a year after his abduction, for me it has to be his
> first summer not his second. I also think his "Free For All" speeches
> are forefront in his mind, as clearly shown in the word association.
> But each to their own.
Well, that's another reason why I'd prefer to think of Do Not Forsake
Me as a Lost Episode. Tying things down to an entire year is
something I'd rather not have to do. And the technology the Village
is given in that episode could really bollix up other ones. For
example, if they have the ability to erase the memory back to any
point, what's to stop them from doing the whole Chimes of Big Ben ploy
all over again, and making sure to set the watch correctly this time?
Frankymole
in
> > the Hammer) implies to me that No 1 is keeping this Number Two
under
> > close observation - probably after a previous cock-up.
>
> Maybe, or maybe not. I don't think No. 1 sees everything (though he
> wants his subordinates to think that). If Colin were such a security
> risk that he couldn't be trusted on his own at all, there'd be little
> point in giving him another chance.
Hmm. But if Number One ain't the Ultimate Control Freak, the metaphor
don't work ;o)
Frankymole
> > Schizoid Man, as Sheila Allen is reading an old copy of the Tally Ho
> > from that episode, where it was a plot point).
>
> Maybe. That's a good point. Though as I recall, the headline was "Is
> No. 2 Fit For Further Term?". Though I wouldn't be surprised if that
> headline got used a lot to further the illusion of democracy. That's
> a stretch, I know, but it seems almost as odd to imagine that she had
> dug up an old paper from the archives or somewhere to relax over
> coffee with.
It's got the same date on it - Feb 10th. Huuuuge stretch to think the
same news comes up exactly 12 months later!
Maybe AB&C happens *during* Schizoid Man then :oD
Rick Davy
>
> Maybe AB&C happens *during* Schizoid Man then :oD
>
LOL - so all they learned was that Curtis wasn't selling out!
Rick
Frankymole
But they've just used the normal US screening order that nearly every
run since the first in 1968 used. Hardly their order (unless they were
the first in 1968, in which case, we're talking at cross purposes).
Graeme
>>Aren't you being a little harsh towards me? How DO you know what I mean?
>>
Not really, I was really being more harsh to some of the Trek writers. Though
admittedly it's hard to write dialogue for someone who's supposed to be smarter
than the author is.
>>No one has to explain Spock to me,
Maybe you can explain him to me, then. He's a pretty bizarre character.
Totally unable to grasp the concept of an idiomatic expression, despite years
of exposure to them. Says "logical" when he means "aesthetic", never uses any
actual formal logic, except in one or two of the Blish books, et cetera.
>>and while I'm not as up on the Priz as some of the folks here are it's why I
raise the question. Why do people object to the A&E order?
>>
My objection is general. Not an objection to THAT order, specifically, just an
objection to tossing out the official order in favor of one that a fan club
suggested. If the A&E Order were "right" and the official order "wrong", that
would be one thing, but both are flawed in their ways, and neither one is
demonstrably "correct".
>>You merely talk about "superficial" reasons, but never address it further. I
found the arguments on the A&E disc to be reasonably thought out, and takes
series events, as well as dialogue, into account.
>>
Are we talking about the same thing? The ones I was talking about were one or
two sentences each, and were indeed pretty darn superficial. For example:
>>Arrival: Anyone arguing that ARRIVAL doesn't belong first when viewing the
series is unmutual!
>>
Maybe true, but that's hardly an argument. It's a claim. Or, what they say
about Free For All:
>>The second episode to be filmed and titled "Episode Two" on the Location
Shooting Schedule, FREE FOR ALL is often broadcast fourth. Theis edition
returns the episode to the second slot. Watch for a reference to Number Six as
a "recent recruit".
>>
This is a little better. It's an actual argument, but it is superficial and
ignoring of counterexamples. For example, in telling you that Free For All was
titled Episode Two, it neglects to mention that there are five separate
episodes written by people who thought they were writing Episode Two. And the
fact that it was filmed second is irrelevant, since they're not going by
filming order here, they're trying to make their own.
Now, take this one for Checkmate:
>>The Chess Champion says, "You must be new here. In time, most of us join the
enemy - against ourselves." Checkmate will be our fourth episode.
>>
Again, we have a superficial argument, bandied about many times, and repeated
by rote, without giving much thought to it. Consider: it is COLOURIS, not No.
6 who says that No. 6 must be new. And his reasoning is based on a clearly
faulty premise, i.e. that if No. 6 were NOT new, then he would have cracked.
If that argument is valid, then No. 6 is "new", all the way through Fall Out,
and so let's not hear any complaints if we put Dance of the Dead 15th or
something.
Now, their reason for placing A. B. & C. immediately after Chimes:
>>
After the Village failure in THE CHIMES OF BIG BEN, drugs could conceivably be
the next step in determining why Number Six resigned. A, B AND C is placed
sixth in our viewing order.
>>
"Could conceivably be true" is hardly a convincing argument. Or even an
argument at all. And again, they're ignoring my favorite point about this
episode, namely that the question of whether or not No. 6 was selling out must
be definitively answered before they can implement a plan like Chimes against
him. The Chimes plan could only be tried because they felt reasonably sure
that if No. 6 escaped, he'd try to go straight back to his old bosses. Or, in
other words, they knew he wasn't selling out.
Well, I could keep going, but hopefully this makes the point. The arguments
used for this order are indeed pretty superficial, and frequently ignore
obvious points. Maybe some don't, but on the whole, I was not impressed. And
I still object in principle to abandoning the running order set up by the
people who actually made the show.
>>Some episodes were defnitely placed with idle reasoning, but were still
placed as "early" episodes for particular reasons. Others, such as the
rationale for the placemnt of "The General," "The Schizoid Man" and "Many Happy
Returns" are quite detailed.
>>
All right, let's look at those. The General:
>>
Having the same Number Two as A, B AND C (Colin Gordon) it seems that this
Interrogator was given another chance to break Number Six. THE GENERAL
features a Number Twelve who has been in The Village "quite a long time," so
this has to precede THE SCHIZOID MAN, an episode that also features a Number
Twelve!
>>
This is a more detailed argument than many. I do agree that The eneral should
go after A. B. and C. (though many people don't). The point about Number
Twelve came up recently, adn I'm hardly the first one to point this out, but he
doesn't say he's been in the village a long time. The question is "How long
have you been with us?" "Quite a long time." That does NOT imply "how long
have you been called No. 12?", it's how long have you been in the organization?
As I mentioned recently, Sheila Allen (I got it right this time!) is called
No. 14, but last week No. 14 was an old lady in a wheelchair. Does this mean
that she didn't work for the Village in any way a week ago? Or is it more
likely that she had a different number, or even no number at all?
As for Colin Gordon being given "another chance to break Number Six", even that
sounds foolish, considering that he makes no effort to do so in The General.
His attention is elsewhere.
The descriptions for The Schizoid Man and Many Happy Returns are pretty well
thought out though, except for the part where it repeats the No. 12 conclusion.
>>Tell me more about where it goes wrong and why, because I'm honestly
interested. If you want to provide me with a better episode by episode order,
and the reason for it, feel free to do so. I'd be happy to try the episodes in
an alternative viewing order.
>>
Well, all right, let me try to make an order right here. My bias is to go by
the official order as much as possible, and only change it when it's clearly
necessary. Which official order? There are two of them. Well, I prefer the
US order, simply because it was not affected by wanting to show an episode but
not having it ready at the time.
I, regretfully, would toss out Do Not Forsake Me, just because having THREE
episodes that involve going back to meet the old bosses (with different bosses
each time, and none of the episodes referring to the other two) is jut too
much.
I agree that there's no room in between Schizoid Man and Many Happy Returns for
The General, so, let's shift that. As for episodes 2-4, I'd rearrange them.
A. B. & C. has to come before Chimes because the "selling out" question has to
be settled. Let's put Free For All before Chimes too, just because Chimes is
several months (minus 6 weeks) after Arrival, and because the Village still
seems so unknown and mysterious in there.
I don't see anything else that NEEDS changing (and you could argue that not all
of what I mentioned needs it either). So, let's see what we've got:
Arrival
Free For All
A. B. and C.
The Chimes of Big Ben
The Schizoid Man
Many Happy Returns
Dance of the Dead
The General
It's Your Funeral
Checkmate
Living In Harmony
A Change of Mind
Hammer Into Anvil
The Girl Who Was Death
Once Upon a Time
Fall Out
If I were going to tinker with the order, this is what I'd do. Now, you can
find faults with this order, granted. But you can find faults with the A&E
order too. The difference is that I'm not asking you to use this, or asking
A&E to put it on their packages. I'd be quite happy to just stick with the
official order, which does have some authority behind it, and really isn't that
bad..
>>We're talking 17 episodes here, with a definite beginning and end. This is
probably a loaded question, but how much variance can there be?
>>
With things like the memory machine from Do Not Forsake Me, you could argue for
any order you wanted. You could even put Arrival last if you were especially
perverse. Say that after Fall Out, No. 6 was rounded up again, put through the
memory machine, and taken back to the Village, with no memory of having been
there before. Yeah, it's pretty perverse. But if you wanted to be perverse,
you could argue that without being provably wrong.
Graeme
>split the series into three sections - in the first section, 6 is
>desperate to break out but fails. The middle section 6 begins to find
>the weaknesses of the village : and in the third he has learned to
>play the game, and the village authorities are the ones who are
>desperate, trying ever-more crackpot schemes to try and crack him.
I've seen orders that tried to clump similar episodes together like that. I
think it makes the series a bit more monotonous. I also don't agree with the
idea that after failing to break out in the first section, he just stops
trying. Reminds me of The Colonel's statement in MHR. He's an old old friend
who never gives up. So, why does he stop trying to escape after the first 3rd
of the series? Well, he gave up.
Frankymole
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20040229192602...@mb-m28.aol.com...
> Shaun wrote:
> >>The second episode to be filmed and titled "Episode Two" on the
Location
> Shooting Schedule, FREE FOR ALL is often broadcast fourth. Theis
edition
> returns the episode to the second slot. Watch for a reference to
Number Six as
> a "recent recruit".
> >>
>
> This is a little better. It's an actual argument, but it is
superficial and
> ignoring of counterexamples. For example, in telling you that Free
For All was
> titled Episode Two, it neglects to mention that there are five
separate
> episodes written by people who thought they were writing Episode Two.
I know of Free For All, Dance of the Dead, Checkmate and Chimes of Big
Ben were all written by authors who had only seen 'The Arrival' (as it
was called) and may've thought they were writing episode two. That's
four - what's the fifth??
Frankymole
has to
be settled."
I don't quite following the reasoning: you've previously said that Colin
Gordon's plan (to use dangerous, nay lethal untested drugs to find out
if 6 was selling out) was unknown to Number One - as it must be, to be
allowed, unless very bear the end when time is running out as shown in
Once Upon a Time). So Colin's plan can indeed come late - because as
you point out, he never cleared it with Number One, and so Number One
isn't going to reveal the "Chimes" report or say "oh, but he wasn't
selling out - he went back to Colonel J and denied defecting". It seems
they're not communicating (Need To Know basis?), despite the red
hotline. I don't believve for a minute that One isn't monitoring what's
being done to 6.
Anyway, Colin's Number Two's paranoia is such he probably wouldn't
believe that without checking out his own "pet theory" anyway... I can
only conclude, if "AB&C" comes early (third!?) that Colin's No 2 is
insane. Odd that he'd get asked back in that case!
Graeme
> I don't quite following the reasoning: you've previously said that Colin
> Gordon's plan (to use dangerous, nay lethal untested drugs to find out
> if 6 was selling out) was unknown to Number One - as it must be, to be
> allowed, unless very bear the end when time is running out as shown in
> Once Upon a Time). So Colin's plan can indeed come late - because as
> you point out, he never cleared it with Number One, and so Number One
> isn't going to reveal the "Chimes" report or say "oh, but he wasn't
> selling out - he went back to Colonel J and denied defecting". It seems
> they're not communicating (Need To Know basis?), despite the red
> hotline. I don't believve for a minute that One isn't monitoring what's
> being done to 6.
The episode isn't absolutely clear about it, of course. I'm not
absolutely dead set on saying that No. 1 didn't know about the use of
the dream drug, but that's my impression. It seems reasonable to me
that No. 6 would be under *less* surveillance early in the series,
since the higher ups would just take it for granted that he'd be
quickly broken, like everybody else. The only thing about that
episode that suggests "late" to me is the comment "I sometimes think
he he isn't human." I think it means that No. 6 has had at least one
episode where he beat the odds and held out (Free For All?). Even one
failure was considered highly irregular, so the higher ups wanted to
make an example of him, and gave an order to get the information right
NOW, and no more fooling around. Gordon could have believed that the
request was not nearly as simple as Control thought it would be, and
that desperate measures were called for.
As for not communication, No. 1 may or may not know about the Dream
Drug, but I assume that No. 2 knows all about No. 6's past history in
the Village. Remember in Once Upon a Time where No. 2 picks up the
folder and starts reviewing incidents that took place when he wasn't
around. I assume that Gordon had access to the same stuff.
> Anyway, Colin's Number Two's paranoia is such he probably wouldn't
> believe that without checking out his own "pet theory" anyway... I can
> only conclude, if "AB&C" comes early (third!?) that Colin's No 2 is
> insane. Odd that he'd get asked back in that case!
> --
> Frankymole
Well, yes if he read in the file folder something like "We arranged a
faux escape for No. 6, and the first thing he tried to do was to
report back to Colonel J." If he read that and THEN concluded that
No. 6 must have been selling out, he would indeed be a pretty dim
bulb. But if Chimes hadn't happened yet, it might be a reasonable
theory.
Speaking of episode order, let's talk about Free For All. I was okay
with putting it second. A lot of other people do too. But on the
other hand, it seems a bit wild that they'd do something THAT
grandiose as their very first major effort to break No. 6. Still, I'm
not comfortable with putting A. B. and C. second either. It seems
like No. 6 must have demonstrated some great aptitude for resistance
by that point, and he really doesn't show that in Arrival. A *will*
to resist yes, but not an extraordinary aptitude for it.
Graeme
> I know of Free For All, Dance of the Dead, Checkmate and Chimes of Big
> Ben were all written by authors who had only seen 'The Arrival' (as it
> was called) and may've thought they were writing episode two. That's
> four - what's the fifth??
>
> --
> Frankymole
My mistake. Just those four, not five.
Frankymole
That brings us to the grandiose Free For All (see below)...
> The only thing about that
> episode that suggests "late" to me is the comment "I sometimes think
> he he isn't human." I think it means that No. 6 has had at least one
> episode where he beat the odds and held out (Free For All?). Even one
> failure was considered highly irregular, so the higher ups wanted to
> make an example of him, and gave an order to get the information right
> NOW, and no more fooling around. Gordon could have believed that the
> request was not nearly as simple as Control thought it would be, and
> that desperate measures were called for.
<some snippage>
Good points and if I ever put AB&C that early (and ignore trivial props
and stuff like the newspaper) I will feel quite happy with those
explanations. I also like it late because I'm pretty sure "Mrs
Butterworth" is in the dream as a nod/tease from 6 that he's now
controlling it :)
> Speaking of episode order, let's talk about Free For All. I was okay
> with putting it second. A lot of other people do too. But on the
> other hand, it seems a bit wild that they'd do something THAT
> grandiose as their very first major effort to break No. 6.
But it's not a plan to break him as such - it's not particularly
tailor-made, indeed it may be something used on every ne winitiate. It
just demonstrates the Village - shows what it is capable of. Everything
from disorientation (the "teleporting" Number Two on the doorstep a
split second after being seen in his Dome, conversing in real-time; the
untrustworthy maid, a ploy that wouldn't work well after Dance when "the
maids [plural] come... and they go"), and as previously discussed he is
told in Dance that the 'democratic' opposition has been got rid of. No,
I just can't place Free For All later than second. I can understand why
others might place Dance later, but all the questions and "I've never
seen a night - I just sleep" means it must precede Checkmate, Hammer and
any others where he's sneaking around after curfew - including Chimes (I
don't count Free For All as seeing a night, as he's drugged out of his
mind for most of it!).
Rick Davy
>
> 6) Chimes - Sep '66-Oct/Nov '66 (takes 6 weeks, same tree bare by end,
> woods bare and full of autumn leaves)
>
> 7) Girl - winter 66/67 (dark by children's bedtime, early simple plot, 2
> thinks P hasn't realised kids are "flown in"?)
>
> 8) Schizoid - Jan- 10 Feb '67 (calendar)
>
> 9) Many Happy Returns - Feb-19 Mar '67 (dates given on-screen, in 1967
> 18 March *was* a Saturday as given)
>
As the dates are given, there isn't much argument but in MHR, #6 says to
Thorpe and The Colonel "I'm not sure which side runs this Village". I'm not
sure he'd be likely to say that if his Fotheringay/Colonel J encounter was
only 3 episodes before. I'm not changing anyone's order here (as there are
issues regarding #6s knowledge of the Village's whereabouts in MHR) but
thought this worthy of a mention.
I think that The General should also possibly be placed immediately after
one of 6's trips away. Whilst all the Villagers are running around with
speedlearn rosettes on, #6 doesn't seem to know what's going on. I agree
that AB&C should follow The General (although I'd be far happier if TG
didn't have the "#6 and I are old friends" line).
I also like the idea of Andre VG from Funeral being the #2 just before #6
arrived, he went on leave and apart from Gordon and McKern all the other #2s
were "interim" #2s. This would explain why Girl has a plan that would never
work (Griffith's #2 only being an interim and was only looking after things
before AVG's return so didn't want to try anything risky).
Nesbitt was #1's choice as successor but sacked him after the hash he made
of his bomb plan. The Village had no other permanant successor to bring in
so put Clifford Evans in purely to oversee the Seltzman business, then tried
eager civil servant Colin Gordon and then brought back McKern in a last
ditch effort.
Still, here goes anyway - would love to hear your thoughts (Graeme and
Frank - go easy on me):
1. Arrival
2. Free For All
3. Dance
4. Checkmate
5. Harmony
(See Frankymole's list/reasons - I agree entirely).
6. Chimes (would still like this after MHR but can't find a way). Can't come
too early ("a gap of months").
7. Schizoid Man (must precede MHR (dates) and The General (no knowledge of))
8. Many Happy Returns
9. Change of Mind (#6 is very isolated, more so than usual, perhaps
depression brought on by the events of MHR - finally realising he cannot
leave?)
10. Hammer Into Anvil (springtime clues as in ACOM)
11. Girl (last interim #2 before AVG returns - nothing too risky or bomb
plot will be worthless)
12. It's Your Funeral (see above)
13. Do Not Forsake (1 year on)
14. The General (has been "out of circulation" allowing Speedlearn to be
properly implemented)
15. AB&C
16. Once Upon a Time
17. Fall Out
Rick
Graeme
>news:c1acui$96t$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Slight problem with that. The calendar doesn't just say February 10, it says
WEDNESDAY, February 10. So, it probably takes place in 1965. The next closest
years that have a Wednesday, February 10 are 1954 and 1971.
Graeme
Thorpe and The Colonel "I'm not sure which side runs this Village". I'm not
sure he'd be likely to say that if his Fotheringay/Colonel J encounter was only
3 episodes before.
>>
The failure Chimes, MHR, and DNFMOMD to take each other into account is a major
source of irritation. Surely Chimes must take place before MHR, yet in MHR,
he's still not sure which side runs the Village. You could build an
explanation out of this, like maybe he thought J and F were "Village twins",
and not the genuine articles, or something like that, but the show doesn't
address it at all, one way or the other. They're unfortunately all geared as
independent stories, and so don't take each other into account. There's a bit
of a story arc, but not much.
>>I think that The General should also possibly be placed immediately after one
of 6's trips away. Whilst all the Villagers are running around with speedlearn
rosettes on, #6 doesn't seem to know what's going on.
>>
I'd be happy leaving Dance of the Dead where it is, right after Many Happy
Returns, and sticking The General immediately after that.
>>I agree that AB&C should follow The General (although I'd be far happier if
TG didn't have the "#6 and I are old friends" line).
>>
I still like A. B. & C. first. It's just more believable to me that a
perennial nervous nelly would get cocky after getting away with something than
that a perenially cocky guy would have his equanimity so totally shattered by a
defeat that seems to have done him no harm.
>>I also like the idea of Andre VG from Funeral being the #2 just before #6
arrived, he went on leave and apart from Gordon and McKern all the other #2s
were "interim" #2s.
>>
I didn't really buy that. The idea that there's really just one No. 2 and all
the others are substitute teachers. The way McGoohan told it, the changing No.
2's was based on the Bank Manager Syndrome, and so it seemed like changing No.
2's was a deliberate way of keeping the prisoner's off balance.
>>This would explain why Girl has a plan that would never work (Griffith's #2
only being an interim and was only looking after things before AVG's return so
didn't want to try anything risky).
>>
I have a different explanation for that, but it is based on a similar idea.
>Still, here goes anyway - would love to hear your thoughts (Graeme and
>Frank - go easy on me):
Well, remember there isn't any one best order. There are some decidedly wrong
ones, but not any one that works without any flaws.
>1. Arrival
>2. Free For All
>3. Dance
>4. Checkmate
Here's an example of how the stories don't take each other into account
properly. Most people would agree that Checkmate comes after Free For All,
right? But how come, when No. 6 is recruiting allies in Checkmate, nobody
distrusts him on the grounds that this is the guy that recently got elected as
No. 2? In fact, nobody ever remembers him that way.
>>6. Chimes (would still like this after MHR but can't find a way). Can't come
too early ("a gap of months").
>>
Well, maybe that's overrated. "A gap of months", means at least two months.
The story takes place over the course of 6 weeks, so theoretically, it could
have begun as little as two weeks after No. 6 came to the Village. Maybe even
less, because we don't know how much time elapses between the time No. 6 is
gassed and the time he wakes up in the Village. They keep him out cold for
quite a while in Schizoid Man, and they must have needed some time to get his
Village home ready and make it look more or less like the one in London.
>>7. Schizoid Man (must precede MHR (dates) and The General (no knowledge of))
>>
Yes.
>>
10. Hammer Into Anvil (springtime clues as in ACOM)
11. Girl (last interim #2 before AVG returns - nothing too risky or bomb
plot will be worthless)
>>
I think the US order gets it right here, putting Hammer Into Anvil in 14th
place. This episode should go as late as possible.That anorakzone website I
was looking at the other day actually thought that it should be No. 6's FIRST
victory. No, no, it really needs to be more like his last. It's impossible
that life could go on as normal in the Village after this episode. No. 6 has
discovered their Achille's heel. That warders don't know who to trust any more
than Prisoners do. Having broken one No. 2 this way, he can try the same
technique on anyone else that he wants to, and they can't stop him. ("Hey, if
you find any evidence that No. 6 is actually working for us, don't believe it,
okay?"
I think the US order gets it right: Hammer, Girl, Once Upon a Time, and Fall
Out. Hammer Into Anvil provokes a crisis. Life in the Village can no longer
go on for No. 6. Kenneth Griffith is rushed in as an emergency replacement for
Patrick Cargill, and given orders to do NOTHING with No. 6. Just sit on him
until they can bring in their best man, Leo McKern, to finally deal with him.
Though he can't do anything, he tries a harmless little ploy to get No. 6 to
drop his guard with kids. It almost certainly won't work, but it's a no-risk
gamble. If it works, he looks good, but if it doesn't, he can't be accused of
breaking orders. He didn't REALLY do anything, he just watched No. 6 as
they're supposed to be doing. Then it fails, and he's furious. Of COURSE it
failed. He knew it would all along.
>>15. AB&C
It would be nice to be able to put this one late, actually. It would explain
the urgency to get results fast if it happened after the crisis created by
Hammer Into Anvil. But I still think that the question of whether No. 6 was
selling out has to be resolved early, and couldn't possibly be a live issue
this late in the game.
Titan
> The failure Chimes, MHR, and DNFMOMD to take each other into account is a major
> source of irritation. Surely Chimes must take place before MHR, yet in MHR,
> he's still not sure which side runs the Village. You could build an
> explanation out of this, like maybe he thought J and F were "Village twins",
> and not the genuine articles, or something like that, but the show doesn't
> address it at all, one way or the other.
Or, a more explanation: the Colonel and Fotheringay were working for the Village, but he
isn't sure whether or not his entire organisation is. Still, it's annoying that he doesn't
mention them (as has already been discussed on this thread) in MHR, if you're trying to find
a cast-iron order for the episodes.
I still hold to the line - "let it go". It doesn't all have to make logical sense!
Lew Stringer
It's no big mystery, and it doesn't mean the episode was set in 1965!
Obviously they hadn't bothered updating the calendar in the ITC prop
department for two years.
Frankymole
"Lew Stringer" <Lew.St...@BTopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:BC6E2CC9.23845%Lew.St...@BTopenworld.com...
Or the Village authorities try to confuse inmates. Nahhh, that'd never
happen would it!
Frankymole
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
Bit tricky, as KAR was registered in 1965, and he's clearly abducted in
summer...
Frankymole
"Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:c27ldv$1eu$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>
> "Frankymole" <Frank@Ask for it on the group.com> wrote in message
> news:c1acui$96t$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > 6) Chimes - Sep '66-Oct/Nov '66 (takes 6 weeks, same tree bare by
end,
> > woods bare and full of autumn leaves)
> >
> > 7) Girl - winter 66/67 (dark by children's bedtime, early simple
plot, 2
> > thinks P hasn't realised kids are "flown in"?)
> >
> > 8) Schizoid - Jan- 10 Feb '67 (calendar)
> >
> > 9) Many Happy Returns - Feb-19 Mar '67 (dates given on-screen, in
1967
> > 18 March *was* a Saturday as given)
> >
>
> As the dates are given, there isn't much argument but in MHR, #6 says
to
> Thorpe and The Colonel "I'm not sure which side runs this Village".
I'm not
> sure he'd be likely to say that if his Fotheringay/Colonel J encounter
was
> only 3 episodes before.
On the contrary, J and Fotheringay do not show which side runs the
Village - McKern says to them at the end (on the steps) "You'd better
get back [to London] before any embarrassing questions are asked",
showing that *their* London superiors do not know they are playing away
from home (double agents... or more likely triple agents, knowing the
Prisoner!) ;o)
Frankymole
"Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:c27ldv$1eu$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> Frank - go easy on me):
'Course I will! ;o)
> 1. Arrival
> 2. Free For All
> 3. Dance
> 4. Checkmate
> 5. Harmony
> (See Frankymole's list/reasons - I agree entirely).
> 6. Chimes (would still like this after MHR but can't find a way).
Can't come
> too early ("a gap of months").
> 7. Schizoid Man (must precede MHR (dates) and The General (no
knowledge of))
> 8. Many Happy Returns
> 9. Change of Mind (#6 is very isolated, more so than usual, perhaps
> depression brought on by the events of MHR - finally realising he
cannot
> leave?)
Yes, that very uncharacteristic loneliness in the woods when he is first
shunned is very odd... the aimless, irritated twig-snapping and moping
around the bushes, forlornly watching the migrating birds that can come
and go at will - very poignant. Shame the rest of the story is crap :oP
> 10. Hammer Into Anvil (springtime clues as in ACOM)
> 11. Girl (last interim #2 before AVG returns - nothing too risky or
bomb
> plot will be worthless)
Also, after the systematic sabotage of Village hierarchy in Hammer, when
P learns to turn the Village mechanisms against its leaders, a
softly-softly approach makes sense while they lick their wounds and
reconsider how to deal with him. I too like not having "Girl" too late.
I don't know why it seems to have an unassailable "fifteenth place"
position in most orders - it could go anywhere, and preferably early as
the "ruse" of having kids in the Village is an obvious giveaway that
something's afoot, to anyone who's been there for long. Plus it's just
visually naff having it near Fall Out.
> 12. It's Your Funeral (see above)
> 13. Do Not Forsake (1 year on)
6's unfamiliarity with "Annual" appreciation day indicates (to me) that
this comes before Forsake, so well done. After "Hammer", P is turning
the tables regularly and in even scuppering plans that are little to do
with him - I lvoe his "final handshake" with Derren Nesbitt. Total
victory.
> 14. The General (has been "out of circulation" allowing Speedlearn to
be
> properly implemented)
I used to agree with this reasoning, but I see in Funeral that P has
been voluntarily secluding himself form the other Villagers' doings (his
conversation with Monique at the start), so maybe he's just been moping
in his cottage and the woodland gym. Still, you put this and AB&C in
the same places I do so I can't complain :)
> 15. AB&C
> 16. Once Upon a Time
> 17. Fall Out
Yeah, as good an order as any, no apparent flaws, I could live with it.
Frankymole
"Titan" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ab258c17...@text.news.ntlworld.com...
It doesn't have to, but playing with the jigsaw can be fun for those
with that kind of mind. Anyway, this thread started because A&E (bless
'em) were touting their order as being a considered, rationalised
chronological one. So some of us try to see if it really is, or if we
can better it :o)
Rick Davy
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
>
> The failure Chimes, MHR, and DNFMOMD to take each other into account is a
major
> source of irritation. Surely Chimes must take place before MHR, yet in
MHR,
> he's still not sure which side runs the Village. You could build an
> explanation out of this, like maybe he thought J and F were "Village
twins",
> and not the genuine articles, or something like that, but the show doesn't
> address it at all, one way or the other. They're unfortunately all geared
as
> independent stories, and so don't take each other into account. There's a
bit
> of a story arc, but not much.
>
Agreed.
> I still like A. B. & C. first. It's just more believable to me that a
> perennial nervous nelly would get cocky after getting away with something
than
> that a perenially cocky guy would have his equanimity so totally shattered
by a
> defeat that seems to have done him no harm.
>
I agree - it's just the whole red phone thing, and the "I am #2" (rather
than the *new* #2) thing put me off the idea.
> I didn't really buy that. The idea that there's really just one No. 2 and
all
> the others are substitute teachers.
Oh, I don't know? I can't see AVG being given the job just to retire him off
and kill him! It is clear that AVG and #6 have never met, which they surely
would have done before AVG was on leave (unless AVG went on leave before #6
arrived - which is what I believe). It also makes sense of the fact that the
#2s come and go, regardless of what progress they made.
>The way McGoohan told it, the changing No.
> 2's was based on the Bank Manager Syndrome, and so it seemed like changing
No.
> 2's was a deliberate way of keeping the prisoner's off balance.
Fair point, but that's like taking off your best player when you're 1-0
down.
> Here's an example of how the stories don't take each other into account
> properly. Most people would agree that Checkmate comes after Free For All
,
> right? But how come, when No. 6 is recruiting allies in Checkmate, nobody
> distrusts him on the grounds that this is the guy that recently got
elected as
> No. 2? In fact, nobody ever remembers him that way.
"Here today, gone tomorrow politicians" as Robin Day once amusingly said.
Perhaps that was another example of the theme of FFA. You could argue, of
course, that if FFA comes after Checkmate he wouldn't have got a single vote
'cos all the Villagers would have said "that's that idiot who tried to
escape in the dingy - I'm not voting for him, he might take away our ice
cream".
>
>
> >>6. Chimes (would still like this after MHR but can't find a way). Can't
come
> too early ("a gap of months").
> >>
>
> Well, maybe that's overrated. "A gap of months", means at least two
months.
> The story takes place over the course of 6 weeks, so theoretically, it
could
> have begun as little as two weeks after No. 6 came to the Village. Maybe
even
> less, because we don't know how much time elapses between the time No. 6
is
> gassed and the time he wakes up in the Village.
Fair point again, but that's even more reason to have it before MHR (which
clearly takes place in March, being his bday and all).
> I think the US order gets it right here, putting Hammer Into Anvil in 14th
> place. This episode should go as late as possible.That anorakzone website
I
> was looking at the other day actually thought that it should be No. 6's
FIRST
> victory. No, no, it really needs to be more like his last. It's
impossible
> that life could go on as normal in the Village after this episode. No. 6
has
> discovered their Achille's heel. That warders don't know who to trust any
more
> than Prisoners do. Having broken one No. 2 this way, he can try the same
> technique on anyone else that he wants to, and they can't stop him. ("Hey,
if
> you find any evidence that No. 6 is actually working for us, don't believe
it,
> okay?"
I agree. I did try and put Hammer as late in the run as possible, but
because of my bizarre theory concerning AVG's #2, and the fact that Colin
Gordon comes last because of this, meant that 10/11/12 was about as late as
I could get it in.
>
> I think the US order gets it right: Hammer, Girl, Once Upon a Time, and
Fall
> Out. Hammer Into Anvil provokes a crisis. Life in the Village can no
longer
> go on for No. 6. Kenneth Griffith is rushed in as an emergency
replacement for
> Patrick Cargill, and given orders to do NOTHING with No. 6. Just sit on
him
> until they can bring in their best man, Leo McKern, to finally deal with
him.
Good points all. If it wasn't for my AVG theory I wouldn't argue with that
one little bit.
I know the "order" debate comes up very often, and poor old Franky has to
wheel out his reasons again and again, but I've really enjoyed reading this
thread - cheers all.
Rick
Rick Davy
> 6's unfamiliarity with "Annual" appreciation day indicates (to me) that
> this comes before Forsake, so well done. After "Hammer", P is turning
> the tables regularly and in even scuppering plans that are little to do
> with him - I lvoe his "final handshake" with Derren Nesbitt. Total
> victory.
Forgive my script ignorance (it's been many years since I've watched the
series, particularly this episode which is IMHO one of the weakest), but is
the appreciation day actually referred to as annual?
Rick
Frankymole
"Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
>
> "Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
> news:20040304200124...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> > distrusts him on the grounds that this is the guy that recently got
> elected as
> > No. 2? In fact, nobody ever remembers him that way.
>
> "Here today, gone tomorrow politicians" as Robin Day once amusingly
said.
> Perhaps that was another example of the theme of FFA. You could argue,
of
> course, that if FFA comes after Checkmate he wouldn't have got a
single vote
> 'cos all the Villagers would have said "that's that idiot who tried to
> escape in the dingy - I'm not voting for him, he might take away our
ice
> cream".
LOL!!! Keeping up his "old grumpypants" reputation, there.
Frankymole
"Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:c2b7um$b28$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
>
> news:20040304200124...@mb-m06.aol.com...
and
> Fall
> > Out. Hammer Into Anvil provokes a crisis. Life in the Village can
no
> longer
> > go on for No. 6.
Because one Number Two had "a personality flaw - you were afraid of your
superiors"? I doubt they were all so paranoid as Cargill - especially if
old ironballs Colin Gordon (using the order you prefer, Graeme) is
anything to go by (he toughs it out against his superiors and even uses
a viciously lethal untested drug against their knowledge and wishes...
then comes back swaggering and smug for the Speedlearn project) .
> I know the "order" debate comes up very often, and poor old Franky has
to
> wheel out his reasons again and again,
I've saved 'em this time ;o)
> but I've really enjoyed reading this
> thread - cheers all.
V. true - who sez we never discuss The Prisoner here??
Frankymole
"Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
Yes, it is. I've kind of got the dialogue for that whole episode burned
into my cortex as (along with half of Fall Out) it's the only episode I
audiotaped in the early 1980s...
"So long as what you're saying, doesn't become too obviously
phonEEEEEEEY, YES!!"
Rick Davy
>
> "Rick Davy" <Rdav...@NOSPAMbtopenworld.com> wrote in message
> news:c2b7um$b28$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> >
> > "Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
> > news:20040304200124...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> > > But how come, when No. 6 is recruiting allies in Checkmate, nobody
> > > distrusts him on the grounds that this is the guy that recently got
> > elected as
> > > No. 2? In fact, nobody ever remembers him that way.
> >
> > "Here today, gone tomorrow politicians" as Robin Day once amusingly
> said.
> > Perhaps that was another example of the theme of FFA. You could argue,
> of
> > course, that if FFA comes after Checkmate he wouldn't have got a
> single vote
> > 'cos all the Villagers would have said "that's that idiot who tried to
> > escape in the dingy - I'm not voting for him, he might take away our
> ice
> > cream".
>
> LOL!!! Keeping up his "old grumpypants" reputation, there.
>
> --
Well remembered, Franky! :-)
Rick
Rick
> >>15. AB&C
>
> It would be nice to be able to put this one late, actually. It would explain
> the urgency to get results fast if it happened after the crisis created by
> Hammer Into Anvil. But I still think that the question of whether No. 6 was
> selling out has to be resolved early, and couldn't possibly be a live issue
> this late in the game.
For what it's worth, the selling out theory could have been Number
Two's own pet theory. Number One may have been looking for other
information based on what would have happened had Number Six not been
abducted. However he let Number Two believe whatever he wanted,
because what Number Two believed didn't matter. Only the results did.
Yeah, I know it's not the strongest argument, but I like A, B & C near
the end, for the sense of desperation on the part of the Village
authorities to get some answers. I also feel that wherever one puts it
in the order, it should NOT come directly after Chimes. As others have
said, Number Six's actions in Chimes should indicate he wasn't
planning to sell out.
Rick
Graeme
>> Obviously they hadn't bothered updating the calendar in the ITC prop
>> department for two years.
>>Or the Village authorities try to confuse inmates. Nahhh, that'd never
happen would it!
>>
It might. We just have to decide whether we want to accept it or not. If we
accept the calendar as evidence then the episode takes place in 1965 (or 1971).
If we don't accept it (for whatever reason), then the argument about why
Schizoid Man must take place right before Many Happy Returns goes out the
window too. These are the kinds of choices that lie before us.
Frankymole
"Rick" <UD...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9fd2355f.04030...@posting.google.com...
> graem...@aol.compost (Graeme) wrote in message
news:<20040304200124...@mb-m06.aol.com>...
> > >>15. AB&C
> >
> > It would be nice to be able to put this one late, actually. It
would explain
> > the urgency to get results fast if it happened after the crisis
created by
> > Hammer Into Anvil. But I still think that the question of whether
No. 6 was
> > selling out has to be resolved early, and couldn't possibly be a
live issue
> > this late in the game.
>
> For what it's worth, the selling out theory could have been Number
> Two's own pet theory. Number One may have been looking for other
> information based on what would have happened had Number Six not been
> abducted. However he let Number Two believe whatever he wanted,
> because what Number Two believed didn't matter. Only the results did.
This fits in with Chimes' declaration by Leo's No 2 that it isn't the
reason for the resignation they want, per se. It is that if P can be
made, even by trickery, to start with that one deeply-held secret, "the
rest will follow". So allowing some No 2's to act on a hypothesis of
their own is as good a way to approach the problem as any - a variety of
approaches makes sense.
> Yeah, I know it's not the strongest argument, but I like A, B & C near
> the end, for the sense of desperation on the part of the Village
> authorities to get some answers. I also feel that wherever one puts it
> in the order, it should NOT come directly after Chimes. As others have
> said, Number Six's actions in Chimes should indicate he wasn't
> planning to sell out.
Perhaps cocky Colin saw Nadia's report and thought to himself "No, it
*wasn't* a good idea and he *didn't* do his best, despite her stressing
it here. I don't want him usurping my place as No 1's favourite Village
chairman - I'm going to make sure I beat him to the punch, without
resorting to Degree Absolute but in the same timeframe..." ;o)