Re: It's really bad here now, innit?
The Doctor
AlanSailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sep 19, 10:59=A0am, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 07:12:16 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>
>>
>>
>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:21:49 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>> >> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >Come on, John. =A0For once Yads is making perfect sense, and is on-
>> >> >topic. =A0A rare combination. =A0Let's have a carrot-and-stick approa=
>ch
>> >> >here. =A0Complain when when really posts gibberish, but not on these
>> >> >rare occasions when he does act reasonably.
>>
>> >> Perhaps 'gibberish' is a bit strong... but I have to agree that
>> >> Mandragora was a pretty poor story...
>>
>> >Poor? =A0Maybe, but it was still a _lot_ better than the over-
>> >pretentious wankery that was The Prisoner.
>>
>> I Much prefer Danger Man - which supplied all the background for The
>> Prisoner.
>>
>
>In what way? Two different series. Two different characters.
>
I always thought of John Drake as Secret Agent and the Prisoner.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
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For the latest World News go to http://www.cuttingedge.org/
The Doctor
Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 09:21:25 -0700 (PDT), AlanSailsbury
><alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sep 19, 10:59�am, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 07:12:16 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>> >> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:21:49 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>> >> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> >topic. �A rare combination. �Let's have a carrot-and-stick approach
>>> >> >here. �Complain when when really posts gibberish, but not on these
>>> >> >rare occasions when he does act reasonably.
>>>
>>> >> Perhaps 'gibberish' is a bit strong... but I have to agree that
>>> >> Mandragora was a pretty poor story...
>>>
>>> >pretentious wankery that was The Prisoner.
>>>
>>> I Much prefer Danger Man - which supplied all the background for The
>>> Prisoner.
>>>
>>
>>In what way? Two different series. Two different characters.
>
>Number Six. Both Government Agents with a jaded view of 'the
>establishment' - played by the same actor - use the same catchphrase,
>'be seeing you'.
>
>Many of the themes and scenarios of The Prisoner were used in Danger
>Man - conflicting loyalties, the subordination of individuality to an
>impersonal bureaucratic hierarchy, the subversion of society by an
>anonymous elite.
>
>The main clue is in the Lyric to the title song for the American
>broadcasts of DM - known in the US as Secret Agent -
>"they've given you a number and they've taken away your name".
>
>Even The Village was anticipated in the DM episode Colony Three; The
>use of technology for surveillance and 'enforcement' was frequently
>used in DM; and Drake frequently considered resignation as an
>alternative to the amoral actions of his superiors.
>
>the prisoner was interesting at first; but in comparison with it's
>predecessor it quickly became claustrophobic and repetitive.
I recall on Secret Agent episode where John Drake got
in and out of a fake English Village. IT was a scary one.
Ignis Fatuus
<alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>The Doctor wrote:
>> In article <965a56b4-60b5-42cb...@a6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
>> AlanSailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sep 19, 10:59=A0am, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 07:12:16 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:21:49 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>>>>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Come on, John. =A0For once Yads is making perfect sense, and is on-
>>>>>>> topic. =A0A rare combination. =A0Let's have a carrot-and-stick approa=
>>> ch
>>>>>>> here. =A0Complain when when really posts gibberish, but not on these
>>>>>>> rare occasions when he does act reasonably.
>>>>>> Perhaps 'gibberish' is a bit strong... but I have to agree that
>>>>>> Mandragora was a pretty poor story...
>>>>> Poor? =A0Maybe, but it was still a _lot_ better than the over-
>>>>> pretentious wankery that was The Prisoner.
>>>> I Much prefer Danger Man - which supplied all the background for The
>>>> Prisoner.
>>>>
>>> In what way? Two different series. Two different characters.
>>>
>>
>> I always thought of John Drake as Secret Agent and the Prisoner.
>
>They are not the same character.
>
>
They Are.
Ignis Fatuus
<alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>
>>
>> Whatever; there is a clear transition from
>> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name (Danger
>> Man)
>> to
>> I Am Not A Number; I Am A Free Man (The Prisoner).
>
>Bullshit, the Prisoner wasn not influenced by that song.
>
Evidence?
>>
>> You can provide your own explanation for that and see how persuasive
>> it sounds.
>>
>> Incidentally, script editor (the Prisoner) George Markstein has also
>> claimed that Number Six was John Drake.
>
>Patrick McGoohan said not. Who you gonna trust?
>
In view of all the evidence of Danger Man content that was borrowed
for The Prisoner:
Number Six (a recently resigned Government Agent with a 'conscience'
- Drake was an active Government Agent with a 'conscience');
(Portmeirion (View from the Villa); The Village (Colony Three) The
Mini Moke (Drake drove a Mini Cooper); Be Seeing You (Numerous
Episodes of Danger Man); I Am Not A Number (Secret Agent Lyric);
Thematic Content (humanity subverted by faceless bureaucracy, the
excesses of the 'secret state'...); Surrealistic content (The
Ubiquitous Mr Lovegrove, The Man With The Foot, Not So Jolly
Roger...); Surveillance Technology (numerous DM episodes) - and the
fact that McGoohan had just 'resigned' from Danger Man -
I'm inclined to go with Markstein.
john smith
"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
news:bjlcb5tqhs0dhoabo...@4ax.com...
I've just been reading round this subject on the internet, being curious
about "Danger Man" as I was too young to see it at the time (same with "The
Prisoner" but I've obviously caught up on that in the intervening years),
and I haven't found any such claim. "Similar" does not mean "same"...
Iggy, you claim the Doctors have all been imposters after Hartnell, when we
*know* they're the same character. Why are you now claiming Danger Man and
The Prisoner are the same character when they clearly aren't?
Ignis Fatuus
It's not just my claim - and the similarities are there for anyone to
see if they care to watch Danger Man. The most important links are the
creators McGoohan and Markstein - both of whom worked on Danger Man.
The basic concept of the Prisoner is found in the Secret Agent theme
song which was associated with Danger Man from 1964.
'They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name'
http://www.the-prisoner-6.freeserve.co.uk/markstein.htm
Like it or not if you watch DM you'll frequently hear the distinctive
John Drake catchphrases:
My name is Drake... John Drake (from 1960 - it preceded James Bond by
two years);
and
Be Seeing You...
As far as Who is concerned - the man with ONE Heart and no place of
origin belongs in an entirely different series to the rubber mask
carnival that supplanted it in the seventies. I happen to prefer the
original. Others find it stiflingly boring because it lacks the
melodramatic content of the later shows.
Stephen Wilson
You're both right. It was never explicitly stated that they were the same
character - not in the Prisoner, and not by Patrick McGoohan. However there
are similarities. As far as many people are concerned, they are the same
character.
So if you want them to be, they are. If you don't, they aren't.
The Doctor
The Doctor
Alan Sailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>
>>
>> Whatever; there is a clear transition from
>> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name (Danger
>> Man)
>> to
>> I Am Not A Number; I Am A Free Man (The Prisoner).
>
Sailsbury is inconsistent.
>
>>
>> You can provide your own explanation for that and see how persuasive
>> it sounds.
>>
>> Incidentally, script editor (the Prisoner) George Markstein has also
>> claimed that Number Six was John Drake.
>
>Patrick McGoohan said not. Who you gonna trust?
Care to have a seance with McGoohan?
>
>Save the Warwick Fire Station!
>http://www.warwickcourier.co.uk/news/Opposition-grows-to-39unjustified39-plan.5658322.jp
The Doctor
Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:42:32 +0100, Alan Sailsbury
><alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Whatever; there is a clear transition from
>>> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name (Danger
>>> Man)
>>> to
>>> I Am Not A Number; I Am A Free Man (The Prisoner).
>>
>>
>Evidence?
I doubt it.
>>>
>>> You can provide your own explanation for that and see how persuasive
>>> it sounds.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, script editor (the Prisoner) George Markstein has also
>>> claimed that Number Six was John Drake.
>>
>>Patrick McGoohan said not. Who you gonna trust?
>>
>In view of all the evidence of Danger Man content that was borrowed
>for The Prisoner:
>
> Number Six (a recently resigned Government Agent with a 'conscience'
>- Drake was an active Government Agent with a 'conscience');
>(Portmeirion (View from the Villa); The Village (Colony Three) The
>Mini Moke (Drake drove a Mini Cooper); Be Seeing You (Numerous
>Episodes of Danger Man); I Am Not A Number (Secret Agent Lyric);
>Thematic Content (humanity subverted by faceless bureaucracy, the
>excesses of the 'secret state'...); Surrealistic content (The
>Ubiquitous Mr Lovegrove, The Man With The Foot, Not So Jolly
>Roger...); Surveillance Technology (numerous DM episodes) - and the
>fact that McGoohan had just 'resigned' from Danger Man -
>
>I'm inclined to go with Markstein.
10/10 .
The Doctor
smith - the art of futility.
The Doctor
The Doctor
Whatever.
Ignis Fatuus
<alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>So you hate new Who, will you watch new Prisoner?
>http://www.amctv.com/originals/the-prisoner/
>
I haven't said that I hate new Who. What I have said - on many
occasions - is that it has far more in common with the original than
any of the stories produced in the seventies and eighties. I just wish
they'd drop all references to time lords.
I won't be watching new prisoner. McGoohan was asked to guest and said
he'd done it already.
I've seen it already.
Ignis Fatuus
<alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Patrick McGoohan himself said John Drake was not Number 6. Isn't his
>word good enough for you?
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Six_(The_Prisoner)#Is_the_Prisoner_John_Drake.3F
>'Many fans of The Prisoner believe that Number Six is really John Drake,
>the character that McGoohan played in Danger Man from 1960 to 1962 and
>then again from 1964 to 1966, but the actor has always denied this.'
He could hardly admit to it without copyright infringement. He
abandoned Ralph Smart's production (which was 2 episodes into it's
fourth season) in order to develop The Prisoner. He took the character
with him, but not the name. The concept of a number rather than a name
was firmly established in the Danger Man series...
They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name...
Be Seeing You...
john smith
Thanks! I'll check it out later...
> Like it or not if you watch DM you'll frequently hear the distinctive
> John Drake catchphrases:
> My name is Drake... John Drake (from 1960 - it preceded James Bond by
> two years);
> and
> Be Seeing You...
>
> As far as Who is concerned - the man with ONE Heart and no place of
> origin
Well the "no place of origin" question has to be answered sometime in a
programme that runs for thirty years or more, surely?
belongs in an entirely different series to the rubber mask
> carnival that supplanted it in the seventies. I happen to prefer the
> original. Others find it stiflingly boring because it lacks the
> melodramatic content of the later shows.
I would be one of those "others", being unable to sit through very few
Hartnell stories. It's obviously one of those cases of exposure at an early
age, and I can understand you having a lasting (sentimental? nostalgic?)
attachment to the show back then... But we're not all your age, Iggy: some
of us grew up in different years watching different things, and missed the
Hartnell (and, for me, Troughton and early Pertwee) years entirely...
I was a teenager during the so-called "video nasties" years, and lapped them
up! Which probably explains why I love splatter films and you find even
vaguely similar themes (your "softcore child snuff" schtick) offputting...
Each to their own; we're all products of our time...
My (adopted) comics artist mate has huge issues over his upbringing - he's
mad on evolution too, so he knows what he's talking about! - and we often
debate the "nature or nurture" issue... But I try to bring in a third
factor, which is "culture"... I think people tend to overlook that one...
john smith
"Alan Sailsbury" <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5cednS81DpaTFyvX...@bt.com...
> playing both parts.
>
>
>>
>> As far as Who is concerned - the man with ONE Heart and no place of
>> origin belongs in an entirely different series to the rubber mask
>> carnival that supplanted it in the seventies. I happen to prefer the
>> original. Others find it stiflingly boring because it lacks the
>> melodramatic content of the later shows.
>
> after he quit.
>
>
>
Curiosity?
Seriously, though: you'd HAVE to watch it, wouldn't you, to know how much
they "ruined" it? How else would you know? The thing is - once you
realised it was a pale imitation of the original - why would you watch it
for another *FORTY YEARS*? It's not like the Doctor's ever gonna degenerate
back into William Hartnell again, is it?
Iggy likes "mature" character actors and at least he's got that mad
professor guy in "Fringe" to watch. I quite like him too. Just watched
the first episode of Series 2 and he's definitely the best thing about it!
>
john smith
> http://www.amctv.com/originals/the-prisoner/
I will - purely out of curiosity - but I'm almost certain that, like the
American remake of "The Wicker Man", it'll be fucking awful...
Then again I wrote off "BSG" for the first three years because I assumed
it'd be shit. When I finally sat down to watch it, I devoured the boxsets
in about two weeks and fucking LOVED IT! So let's no judge till we've seen
it, eh? (Not saying that you will, Alan...)
The Doctor
The Doctor
john smith
Isn't Patrick McGoohan dead?
They did do a DC/Vertigo comics miniseries some decade or so back with his
"blessing", as I understand it. It was pretty... >be nice, John<...
erm... mediocre... and utterly, utterly pointless...
The Doctor
Yes.
>They did do a DC/Vertigo comics miniseries some decade or so back with his
>"blessing", as I understand it. It was pretty... >be nice, John<...
>erm... mediocre... and utterly, utterly pointless...
>
>
ZZZ!!!
john smith
"Alan Sailsbury" <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:RcGdnSZbA9g_NivX...@bt.com...
> Ignis Fatuus wrote:
> http://www.amctv.com/originals/the-prisoner/
Hmmm... On first impression: looks like "Lost"... I'll give it a go, for
curiosity - plus Ian McKellan is always fun to watch! Can't be worse than
that shitehawk "Flash Gordon" series, anyway!
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
The series went into production before he died.
The Doctor
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I stopped watching regularly when the tin dog appeared. I thought it
was rock bottom until I saw Adric.
>Iggy likes "mature" character actors and at least he's got that mad
>professor guy in "Fringe" to watch. I quite like him too. Just watched
>the first episode of Series 2 and he's definitely the best thing about it!
>
When was That on ?????
john smith
"Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wils...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:UYvtm.130037$gY4....@newsfe08.ams2...
Makes sense! Fans of "genre" fiction tend to want to lump their favourite
characters into a kind of "shared universe"/continuity... I've rarely been
fussed either way!
>
Ignis Fatuus
Dunno. It's Yank.
john smith
> The Doctor wrote:
>> In article <Uuqdne_m15mRxivX...@bt.com>,
>> Alan Sailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Whatever; there is a clear transition from
>>>> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name (Danger
>>>> Man)
>>>> to
>>>> I Am Not A Number; I Am A Free Man (The Prisoner).
>>> the Prisoner wasn not influenced by that song.
>>
>> Sailsbury is inconsistent.
>>
>>>> You can provide your own explanation for that and see how persuasive
>>>> it sounds.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, script editor (the Prisoner) George Markstein has also
>>>> claimed that Number Six was John Drake.
>
>>> Patrick McGoohan said not. Who you gonna trust?
>>
>> Care to have a seance with McGoohan?
>>
>
> taste?
I do... But it's typical Yads behaviour...
But... Christ in a rickshaw! Is the resident Bible-basher encouraging
people to dabble with the Black Arts now?
john smith
As you say: sounds like he ripped himself off to avoid "copyright
infringement" (though probably to give himself more "artistic control" might
be more pertinent!). That doesn't mean they're the *same* character
though... Sounds like Iggy just *wants* them to be because... Well,
because why, to be honest? Is it just a geeky continuity fanwankfest kinda
thing? You get that massively in comics, especially: I find it pathetic...
which is one of the reasons why I hate superhero comics... (And why I've
never had a proper job in the US comics industry: it's ALL fucking daft
superheroes!)
john smith
You like 'em young then, eh? ;-)
>
>>Iggy likes "mature" character actors and at least he's got that mad
>>professor guy in "Fringe" to watch. I quite like him too. Just watched
>>the first episode of Series 2 and he's definitely the best thing about it!
>>
> When was That on ?????
The new series started last Thursday:
"We have ways and means"...
john smith
Is that Mockney rhyming slang?
The Doctor
The Doctor
Said you 2 black arts dabllers. McGoohan has been
dead since about the same time Ricardo Montalban died.
sadako
> "Alan Sailsbury" <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> Then again I wrote off "BSG" for the first three years because I assumed
> it'd be shit. When I finally sat down to watch it, I devoured the boxsets
> in about two weeks and fucking LOVED IT! So let's no judge till we've seen
> it, eh? (Not saying that you will, Alan...)
>
You do know if Mike Morris was here, he'd probably try to tell you in
his snobbish fashion what a bad, unworthy person you must be for
liking that show.
john smith
"sadako" <tom...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e8fb4b7e-c5f5-4ff1...@b18g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Why so?
Then again: So what? What I like - *I* like! Same as everyone else, I
assume? Everything's subjective, innit? ;-)
This week I am mostly interested in... Pete Carroll's new Chaos magick book,
"TheApophenion"; Borges' "Labyrinths" (can't believe I never read it
before!); The Airborne Toxic Event - tracks 7 + 10 especially (think 10 is
"Atmosphere" - could be 9?)! - mythological creatures, especially A-Z books
of 'em; Welsh stone circles and cromlechs; far-right "Obama is the
Antichrist" conspiracy theories; the poetry of Peter Redgrove (I frequently
re-read his stuff... check out his books too - "The Wise Wound" - on
menstruation - and "The Black Goddess" - on just about everything!) and
carnivorous squirrels...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8261000/8261364.stm
This on top of my usual everyday humdrum interests like TV, smoking,
cooking, boozing, and wittering on about myself on newsgroups like this to
everyone and no-one...
It'll do me till something better comes along...
Ignis Fatuus
Hmm... sounds to me as if you didn't check to see who you were
replying to. Still, Drake was the common assumption in the press etc.
at the time, and Markstein concurred, so I wasn't alone. If it looks
like a drake and it quacks like a drake, I'm not inclined to think it
was a <c>hicken...
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
<forces a smile and judiciously avoids any comment that might smack of
hypocrisy>
>
>>
>>>Iggy likes "mature" character actors and at least he's got that mad
>>>professor guy in "Fringe" to watch. I quite like him too. Just watched
>>>the first episode of Series 2 and he's definitely the best thing about it!
>>>
>> When was That on ?????
>
>
>The new series started last Thursday:
>
>http://epguides.com/Fringe/
>
>"We have ways and means"...
>
You downloaded it!
For Shame!!!
<heads off to do a Usenet search>
Ignis Fatuus
(The Doctor) wrote:
The country that gave us Walter Bishop and Denny Crane can't be all
bad!
Ignis Fatuus
Producer David Tomblin interviewed in 1984 calls The Prisoner 'an
extension of Danger Man' - and suggests that this was McGoohan's
intention.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF445-zEHWs
From 3 min 45 sec.
There's also a recon of the opening credits with Robert Farnon's
dreadful (and ultimately rejected) title music. Sounds like a demented
western theme - shades of Jerome Moross' The Big Country
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7pNArQBN_c&feature=related
There's also Wilfrid Josephs' rejected offering
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EFugZqvhMU&feature=related
and the story behind Ron Grainer's theme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp53tkVtlhA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opDYDumOIEk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKjFgdgp7yY&feature=related
and a revealing Patrick McGoohan interview - love the comment about it
being so influential they have University courses about it in places
like Canada....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8-cp2yb43c&feature=related
sadako
> "sadako" <tom...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:e8fb4b7e-c5f5-4ff1...@b18g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 21, 12:37 am, "john smith" <the_johnsm...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > "Alan Sailsbury" <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> > Then again I wrote off "BSG" for the first three years because I assumed
> > it'd be shit. When I finally sat down to watch it, I devoured the boxsets
> > in about two weeks and fucking LOVED IT! So let's no judge till we've seen
> > it, eh? (Not saying that you will, Alan...)
>
> You do know if Mike Morris was here, he'd probably try to tell you in
> his snobbish fashion what a bad, unworthy person you must be for
> liking that show.
>
> Why so?
>
> Then again: So what? What I like - *I* like! Same as everyone else, I
> assume? Everything's subjective, innit? ;-)
>
I'm not sure why but Mike seemed to really hate that show and felt it
should be acknowledged as a *fact* that it was a bad show and that the
only people it could appeal to were the dregs of the sci-fi community
(or maybe he just thought the whole sci-fi community were scum). It
might have had something to do with the fact that he was very
defensive about New Who (until Series 4) and took exception to the
criticism from the 'haters' that New Who 'should be more like
Battlestar Galactica'- I think he had a grudge against that show ever
since.
Me personally I really liked the miniseries- infact I couldn't fault
it at all. The first two seasons I mostly enjoyed, especially the
Pegasus stories and Scar- and like you, I got through the seasons very
quickly, but I gave up on it with Series 3, I found that run of
stories depressing and mean spirited. But then people told me that
Season 4 was a real return to form, and I might see if I can lend it
off someone.
In terms of sci-fi shows, I've only just watched the first season of
Babylon 5, and I really enjoyed it, though I don't feel in a hurry to
watch the next seasons, but I'll probably get round to it. I'm more
eager to get the first season of Earth: Final Conflict- I've heard a
lot of good stuff about that series. Id also really like to check out
Roddenberry's other show, Andromeda, but the prices on the box sets
are ridiculous, so I think I'll stick with the Earthbound one.
Moor Larkin
> He could hardly admit to it without copyright infringement. He
> abandoned Ralph Smart's production (which was 2 episodes into it's
> fourth season) in order to develop The Prisoner. He took the character
> with him, but not the name. The concept of a number rather than a name
> was firmly established in the Danger Man series...
> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name...
>
> Be Seeing You
Since when were universal concepts copyright to anyone?
You are right that The Prisoner evolved from Danger Man, but utterly
wrong that Six was John Drake. This Blog may interest you. It
certainly negates all the nonsense written over the years about Ralph
Smart and his supposed copyright influence and McGoohan's supposed
character theft..
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2009/06/secret-agents-ducks-drakes-smart-people.html
Dewey
> The Doctor wrote:
>> In article
>> <965a56b4-60b5-42cb...@a6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
>> AlanSailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sep 19, 10:59=A0am, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 07:12:16 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:21:49 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>>>>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Come on, John. =A0For once Yads is making perfect sense, and is
>>>>>>> on- topic. =A0A rare combination. =A0Let's have a
>>>>>>> carrot-and-stick approa=
>>> ch
>>>>>>> here. =A0Complain when when really posts gibberish, but not on
>>>>>>> these rare occasions when he does act reasonably.
>>>>>> Perhaps 'gibberish' is a bit strong... but I have to agree that
>>>>>> Mandragora was a pretty poor story...
>>>>> Poor? =A0Maybe, but it was still a _lot_ better than the over-
>>>>> pretentious wankery that was The Prisoner.
>>>> I Much prefer Danger Man - which supplied all the background for
>>>> The Prisoner.
>>>>
>>> In what way? Two different series. Two different characters.
>>>
>>
>> I always thought of John Drake as Secret Agent and the Prisoner.
>
> They are not the same character.
>
That is quite a bold statement considering how much debate there is over
this point. The Girl Who Was Death certainly provides ample evidence to
the contrary.
--
"I talked to God about that and he was like, 'No.'"
- Joe The Plumber, hearing the voices
Dewey
news:leutm.148412$tD4....@newsfe07.ams2:
>
> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> news:bjlcb5tqhs0dhoabo...@4ax.com...
>> They Are.
>
>
>
> I've just been reading round this subject on the internet, being
> curious about "Danger Man" as I was too young to see it at the time
> (same with "The Prisoner" but I've obviously caught up on that in the
> intervening years), and I haven't found any such claim. "Similar"
> does not mean "same"...
>
> Iggy, you claim the Doctors have all been imposters after Hartnell,
> when we *know* they're the same character. Why are you now claiming
> Danger Man and The Prisoner are the same character when they clearly
> aren't?
>
>
>
Because they are not clearly not.
Ignis Fatuus
I think I can make my own judgment without resorting to blogs, thanks.
I made no claim that McGoohan Had infringed any copyright (although I
doubt he'd have been given such latitude nowadays - just take a look
at Lost). Markstein and Tomblin have both said that Number Six was a
'continuation' of John Drake - and that was certainly the general
opinion when the series was first broadcast.
Koroshi and Shinda Shima were broadcast after the initial Prisoner run
- and I thought at the time that this was the start of a new series
following on from The Prisoner.
The characters are too similar to suggest that any similarity was a
coincidence; and the lyric was a number three hit - so there's no way
McGoohan could have been unaware of it when he devised a character
whose name had been replaced with a number.
I think the 'continuation of DM' is a fair summary of The Prisoner.
Then of course you just need to watch the Danger Man DVDs to discover
the roots of all the Prisoner ideas - and hear that famous catchphrase
Be Seeing You...
The Doctor
sadako
> In article <2trdb5hv50prl8dudu73dm0chpkheef...@4ax.com>,
> Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 00:31:46 +0000 (UTC), doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca
> >(The Doctor) wrote:
>
> >>Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
> >>>On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:50:40 +0000 (UTC), doc...@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca
> >>>(The Doctor) wrote:
>
> >>>>Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
> >>>>>On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 00:39:42 +0100, "john smith"
> >>>>><the_johnsm...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>news:p6bdb51p5ghibhtvi...@4ax.com...
> >>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:26:22 +0100, Alan Sailsbury
> >>>>>>> <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>Ignis Fatuus wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 19:10:07 +0100, "john smith"
> >>>>>>>>> <the_johnsm...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>news:bjlcb5tqhs0dhoabo...@4ax.com...
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 16:53:02 +0100, Alan Sailsbury
> >>>>>>>>>>> <alansailsb...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The Doctor wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In article
>
> - Show quoted text -
Who the fuck is "we", you disgusting freak of nature?
"WE" want nothing to do with a lowlife like you, so don't you dare
speak for us!
Ignis Fatuus
<alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Pat mcGoohan said they're not the same character so they're not the same
>character. How simple can it be to understand?
>
>
Markstein and Tomblin said they were. I guess they should have agreed
on a story beforehand. There's certainly no evidence in the finished
product to suggest that they weren't the same character. Drake had
even experienced a similar (though more 'realistic') example of The
Village in Colony Three.
Be Seeing You...
john smith
Fairy nuff! We're all allowed our little pet theories...
john smith
I didn't say that! I actually got a copy from a.... >cough<... friend of a
friend...
john smith
Not to mention "Curb Your Enthusiasm"! Apparently my... >cough< "friend"
told me the new series started last night...
john smith
Ta for the links, Iggy! Will check 'em out later...
john smith
> The Doctor wrote:
>> In article <wlztm.72340$pa4....@newsfe27.ams2>,
>>
>>>>>>> Incidentally, script editor (the Prisoner) George Markstein has also
>>>>>>> claimed that Number Six was John Drake.
>
>>>>>> Patrick McGoohan said not. Who you gonna trust?
>
>>>>> Care to have a seance with McGoohan?
>>>>>
>>>> Is it just me or does anyone else find that comment to be in very poor
>>>> taste?
>>>
>>> I do... But it's typical Yads behaviour...
>>>
>>> But... Christ in a rickshaw! Is the resident Bible-basher encouraging
>>> people to dabble with the Black Arts now?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Said you 2 black arts dabllers. McGoohan has been
>> dead since about the same time Ricardo Montalban died.
>
> up the notion of a seance you trolling moron and it was in very bad taste,
> something you now feel guilty about and you are trying to push the blame
> onto us.
>
Typical of the two-faced twat! He has the memory of a fucking goldfish, dun
he?
The Doctor
The Doctor
>he?
>
>
Said a pair of wits who cannot believe the information presented to them.
john smith
***Ugh! That would *never* have worked! "BSG" is far more gritty and
'adult'. "Doctor Who" should be... fluffier? Though I do like the scarier,
edgier stories, personally...****
I think he had a grudge against that show ever
since.
Me personally I really liked the miniseries- infact I couldn't fault
it at all. The first two seasons I mostly enjoyed, especially the
Pegasus stories and Scar- and like you, I got through the seasons very
quickly, but I gave up on it with Series 3, I found that run of
stories depressing and mean spirited. But then people told me that
Season 4 was a real return to form, and I might see if I can lend it
off someone.
***Borrow! They lend - you borrow! But yeah: do so! There are a few
lameish episodes but, on the whole, it's still fantastic science
fiction...***
In terms of sci-fi shows, I've only just watched the first season of
Babylon 5, and I really enjoyed it, though I don't feel in a hurry to
watch the next seasons,
***Watched it but was never that mad on it. I liked the story arc with the
Shadows, then it just seemed to have lost the plot... literally!***
but I'll probably get round to it. I'm more
eager to get the first season of Earth: Final Conflict- I've heard a
lot of good stuff about that series. Id also really like to check out
Roddenberry's other show, Andromeda, but the prices on the box sets
are ridiculous, so I think I'll stick with the Earthbound one.
***Never seen any of those so I can't comment. I think "Dollhouse" had a
pretty cool premise, though that lead woman who plays Echo got on my tits.
She wasn't a good enough actor to pull off all those different 'roles',
although she seemed to think she was...***
john smith
> On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 05:09:25 -0700 (PDT), Moor Larkin
> <moorl...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 20 Sep, 23:52, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>> He could hardly admit to it without copyright infringement. He
>>> abandoned Ralph Smart's production (which was 2 episodes into it's
>>> fourth season) in order to develop The Prisoner. He took the character
>>> with him, but not the name. The concept of a number rather than a name
>>> was firmly established in the Danger Man series...
>>> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name...
>>>
>>> Be Seeing You
>>
>>
>>Since when were universal concepts copyright to anyone?
>>You are right that The Prisoner evolved from Danger Man, but utterly
>>wrong that Six was John Drake. This Blog may interest you. It
>>certainly negates all the nonsense written over the years about Ralph
>>Smart and his supposed copyright influence and McGoohan's supposed
>>character theft..
>>
>>http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2009/06/secret-agents-ducks-drakes-smart-people.html
>
> I think I can make my own judgment without resorting to blogs, thanks.
> I made no claim that McGoohan Had infringed any copyright (although I
> doubt he'd have been given such latitude nowadays - just take a look
> at Lost).
What's "Lost" got to do, got to do with it?
Markstein and Tomblin have both said that Number Six was a
> 'continuation' of John Drake - and that was certainly the general
> opinion when the series was first broadcast.
>
> Koroshi and Shinda Shima were broadcast after the initial Prisoner run
> - and I thought at the time that this was the start of a new series
> following on from The Prisoner.
>
> The characters are too similar to suggest that any similarity was a
> coincidence; and the lyric was a number three hit - so there's no way
> McGoohan could have been unaware of it when he devised a character
> whose name had been replaced with a number.
>
> I think the 'continuation of DM' is a fair summary of The Prisoner.
> Then of course you just need to watch the Danger Man DVDs to discover
> the roots of all the Prisoner ideas - and hear that famous catchphrase
>
> Be Seeing You...
"Famous catchphrase"? It's shit! Most people use that expression every day
of their lives!
Ignis Fatuus
(The Doctor) wrote:
>In article <bm1fb5p3d9ttl8td6...@4ax.com>,
>Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:56:37 +0100, Alan Sailsbury
>><alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Dewey wrote:
>>>> Alan Sailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
>>>> news:nuSdnQqa-JPu0ivX...@bt.com:
>>>>
>>>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always thought of John Drake as Secret Agent and the Prisoner.
>>>
>>>>> They are not the same character.
>>>>>
>>>> That is quite a bold statement considering how much debate there is over
>>>> this point. The Girl Who Was Death certainly provides ample evidence to
>>>> the contrary.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Pat mcGoohan said they're not the same character so they're not the same
>>>character. How simple can it be to understand?
>>>
>>>
>>Markstein and Tomblin said they were. I guess they should have agreed
>>on a story beforehand. There's certainly no evidence in the finished
>>product to suggest that they weren't the same character. Drake had
>>even experienced a similar (though more 'realistic') example of The
>>Village in Colony Three.
>>
>>Be Seeing You...
>
>Au revoir.
Ci vediamo.
The Doctor
>of their lives!
>
>
See you soon.
Ignis Fatuus
Copyright arbitration in the modern world - a little more fastidious
than of old.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Lieber
>
>Markstein and Tomblin have both said that Number Six was a
>> 'continuation' of John Drake - and that was certainly the general
>> opinion when the series was first broadcast.
>>
>> Koroshi and Shinda Shima were broadcast after the initial Prisoner run
>> - and I thought at the time that this was the start of a new series
>> following on from The Prisoner.
>>
>> The characters are too similar to suggest that any similarity was a
>> coincidence; and the lyric was a number three hit - so there's no way
>> McGoohan could have been unaware of it when he devised a character
>> whose name had been replaced with a number.
>>
>> I think the 'continuation of DM' is a fair summary of The Prisoner.
>> Then of course you just need to watch the Danger Man DVDs to discover
>> the roots of all the Prisoner ideas - and hear that famous catchphrase
>>
>> Be Seeing You...
>
>
>"Famous catchphrase"? It's shit! Most people use that expression every day
>of their lives!
>
'Trademark expressions often are; it's the delivery that counts.
As used by 'The Character' in DM and TP it's as distinctive as...
Drake... John Drake...
which was around a couple of years before
Bond... James Bond.
The Doctor
Dewey
> Pat mcGoohan said they're not the same character so they're not the
> same character. How simple can it be to understand?
>
Lots of people say things for all kinds of reasons. Often, the same
person will say totally contradictory things. There is ample evidence
from the show itself to suggest that they in fact the same character.
Dewey
True. There is ample evidence:
The Village/Colony/Portmeirion
Be Seeing You
Christopher Benjamin as Potter
Richard Wattis as Fotheringay/Hardy
And of course Markstein and Tomblin both say it is so.
Moor Larkin
> True. There is ample evidence:
>
> The Village/Colony/Portmeirion
> Be Seeing You
> Christopher Benjamin as Potter
> Richard Wattis as Fotheringay/Hardy
> And of course Markstein and Tomblin both say it is so.
Most of the cast in The Prisoner had also appeared in Danger Man. many
of them also had apppeared as different people in different episodes
of Danger Man !!!
That doesn't mean John Drake failed to recognise them the second time.
It signified that the actor was playing a different character in a TV
show.... :-))))
Potter was probably a Tomblin/McGoohan 'in-joke' (Markstein had been
fired by then) as was the actor/extra they used whose real-life name
was John Drake, but the whole point of 'The Girl Who Was Death' was
that it was a story book for the village children......... a burlesque
of Danger Man/Avengers/Man from Uncle and all the others around at the
time.
I've got a blog for that too........ :-)))))))
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
Ignis Fatuus
Your blog doesn't account for the Secret Agent/Danger Man lyric
They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name.
Surely this must have influenced McGoohan's creative vision. It was
introduced for the American broadcasts in 1964 and reached number
three in the charts.
Moor Larkin
> Your blog doesn't account for the Secret Agent/Danger Man lyric
>
> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name.
>
> Surely this must have influenced McGoohan's creative vision. It was
> introduced for the American broadcasts in 1964 and reached number
> three in the charts
I've got it marked down for a mention sometime. The influences of the
American connections are often under-estimated I think. McGoohan
travelled to the USA for the first time since he was a tiny baby in
1965, to do promo-work for Secret Agent, so he would have heard the
tune....... no doubt.
On the other hand, it was hardly a novel idea for prisoners to be
allocated numbers, was it.... ;-)
Stephen Wilson
"Alan Sailsbury" <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:WZKdnX_4huSNOyrX...@bt.com...
> this preposterous notion The Prisoner was inspired by a ***song***? This
> is another one of your trolls right? Let us remind ourselves that your
> name Ignis Fatuus = Something that misleads or deludes
Is it really that important? Number 6 was Drake as far as Iggy is concerned.
He's not 6 as far as you're concerned.
There's not enough evidence in the show itself to confirm one way or
another. Many episodes of the Prisoner were quite psychadelic and open to
interpretation. I bet half the time even McGoohan himself didn't really know
where he was going with them!
Ignis Fatuus
In the context of DM and TP it reflects a recurring theme - the
subordination of individual identity to the requirements of a
conformist authoritarian society. It's a common theme in literature -
Sartre, Camus, Huxley, Orwell... - particularly suited to the
technological themes of Science Fiction. DW has touched on the subject
with Daleks, Cybermen, and in stories like Galaxy Four.
McGoohan was reputedly influenced by Ibsen's Brand - a preacher whose
individualism ultimately isolates him from society. The play reflects
something of his personal background as well as his philosophical
interests. By all accounts he was influential in the development of
Drake, as well as 6. Drake is frequently at odds with the demands of
his job, and the human cost of his work. 6 is imprisoned because he's
rebelled against the system by resigning.
If Drake and 6 seem like the same character it's perhaps because
McGoohan invested a lot of his own personality in their development.
Both are rebellious loners forced by circumstances to conform - who
question the reasons for that conformity. Both are jaded idealists who
avoid romance and intimacy. Both are loyal in friendship and victims
of betrayal. Both are skilled, athletic Government Agents with highly
developed technical aptitudes who work(ed) for the security services.
Both are intellectual - with a high degree of skepticism.
There's no problem distinguishing Regan and Morse - but it's much
harder to distinguish Drake and 6. Thaw and McGoohan were exceptional
actors - but Thaw was not so personally involved with his characters.
McGoohan took a keen interest in all aspects of both productions -
including the music. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he'd been
involved in the development of that lyric. The words express an
essential quality of Danger man - which became a central theme of The
Prisoner.
Dewey
4dea-a3d3-2...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com:
This is a lot of rationalization. And you didn't even bother to address
"Be seeing you" which, to me, is the biggest give away. The bottomline
of course is that it doesn't matter a fig if Drake and Six are the same
or not. It doesn't change anything about The Prisoner. What it is does
is add a little more fun for some of us. And of course the fact that
those who seek to refute the connection do so in such absolutisms
despite the wealth of clues to the contrary is amusing. Like talking to
a bunch of flat-earthers.
Ignis Fatuus
<alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Pat Mcgoohan said 6 was not Drake but you're going to stubbornly stick
>to this preposterous notion The Prisoner was inspired by a ***song***?
>This is another one of your trolls right? Let us remind ourselves that
>your name Ignis Fatuus = Something that misleads or deludes
>
>
I must be mistaken then. The Prisoner Isn't about a man who has his
name replaced with a number.... or perhaps the lyric was inspired by
The Prisoner and sent back in time. Let me see...
How does it go...
Oh Yes
They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name...
Funny that, I'm sure it reminds me of something. Can't have had
anything to do with McGoohan though. After all, if he'd heard it it
might have given him Ideas for a story about a man whose name was
replaced with a number - and we all know that it was really about a
man called Drake... John Drake - who was played...er... by Patrick
McGoohan.
Never did quite catch the last bit; was he called Number Six, or was
it Number Two... or Number One... or was it John Drake?
<never was very good at maths>
Moor Larkin
> >http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2009_05_01_archive.html
>
> This is a lot of rationalization. And you didn't even bother to address
> "Be seeing you" which, to me, is the biggest give away. The bottomline
> of course is that it doesn't matter a fig if Drake and Six are the same
> or not. It doesn't change anything about The Prisoner. What it is does
> is add a little more fun for some of us. And of course the fact that
> those who seek to refute the connection do so in such absolutisms
> despite the wealth of clues to the contrary is amusing. Like talking to
> a bunch of flat-earthers.
•rationalization - the cognitive process of making something seem
consistent with or based on reason
The most noisy and most published rationalisers insist Six is or was
Drake. They rationalise this despite clear and public press statements
made at the time to the contrary. They rationalise this because of
statements half-made by crew members decades later.
I am quite agreeable that much of the concept and even some plotting
within 'The Prisoner' was clearly infiltrating Mcgoohan's head from
his time on Danger Man. It would be bizarre if it hadn't done so!!
He's been doing Danger Man / Secret Agent on and off for the last five
years!!
I naturally have Blogs exploring the ideas that crossed over..... this
is just one:
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2009/07/mcgoohan-on-my-mind-men-die-every.html
Stating that Number Six is John Drake in a prison is more of an
opinion. You might just as well say that David Jones in Ice Station
Zebra is Number Six before or after his sojourn in the village. They
are alike in personality, look exactly the same, both are secret
agents and both play with weather balloons...........
john smith
Ah! I get you!
>>
>>Markstein and Tomblin have both said that Number Six was a
>>> 'continuation' of John Drake - and that was certainly the general
>>> opinion when the series was first broadcast.
>>>
>>> Koroshi and Shinda Shima were broadcast after the initial Prisoner run
>>> - and I thought at the time that this was the start of a new series
>>> following on from The Prisoner.
>>>
>>> The characters are too similar to suggest that any similarity was a
>>> coincidence; and the lyric was a number three hit - so there's no way
>>> McGoohan could have been unaware of it when he devised a character
>>> whose name had been replaced with a number.
>>>
>>> I think the 'continuation of DM' is a fair summary of The Prisoner.
>>> Then of course you just need to watch the Danger Man DVDs to discover
>>> the roots of all the Prisoner ideas - and hear that famous catchphrase
>>>
>>> Be Seeing You...
>>
>>
>>"Famous catchphrase"? It's shit! Most people use that expression every
>>day
>>of their lives!
>>
>
> 'Trademark expressions often are; it's the delivery that counts.
> As used by 'The Character' in DM and TP it's as distinctive as...
Well they were both spoken by the *same* person...
john smith
"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
news:2hcfb5hsus9si1hkc...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT), Moor Larkin
> <moorl...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 21 Sep, 16:36, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>>> Your blog doesn't account for the Secret Agent/Danger Man lyric
>>>
>>> They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name.
>>>
>>> Surely this must have influenced McGoohan's creative vision. It was
>>> introduced for the American broadcasts in 1964 and reached number
>>> three in the charts
>>
>>
>>I've got it marked down for a mention sometime. The influences of the
>>American connections are often under-estimated I think. McGoohan
>>travelled to the USA for the first time since he was a tiny baby in
>>1965, to do promo-work for Secret Agent, so he would have heard the
>>tune....... no doubt.
>>
>>On the other hand, it was hardly a novel idea for prisoners to be
>>allocated numbers, was it.... ;-)
>
> In the context of DM and TP it reflects a recurring theme - the
> subordination of individual identity to the requirements of a
> conformist authoritarian society.
You don't half like over-intellectualising the obvious, Iggy! As the
previous poster noted: prisoners are given numbers in an attempt to suppress
their individuality. Same with soldiers.
It's a common theme in literature -
> Sartre, Camus, Huxley, Orwell... - particularly suited to the
> technological themes of Science Fiction. DW has touched on the subject
> with Daleks, Cybermen, and in stories like Galaxy Four.
So what? Conformity is a "common theme" in real life, too... You don't
half sound like a pretentious git, you know?
>
> McGoohan was reputedly influenced by Ibsen's Brand - a preacher whose
> individualism ultimately isolates him from society. The play reflects
> something of his personal background as well as his philosophical
> interests. By all accounts he was influential in the development of
> Drake, as well as 6. Drake is frequently at odds with the demands of
> his job, and the human cost of his work. 6 is imprisoned because he's
> rebelled against the system by resigning.
>
> If Drake and 6 seem like the same character it's perhaps because
> McGoohan invested a lot of his own personality in their development.
> Both are rebellious loners forced by circumstances to conform - who
> question the reasons for that conformity. Both are jaded idealists who
> avoid romance and intimacy. Both are loyal in friendship and victims
> of betrayal. Both are skilled, athletic Government Agents with highly
> developed technical aptitudes who work(ed) for the security services.
> Both are intellectual - with a high degree of skepticism.
>
> There's no problem distinguishing Regan and Morse - but it's much
> harder to distinguish Drake and 6. Thaw and McGoohan were exceptional
> actors - but Thaw was not so personally involved with his characters.
>
> McGoohan took a keen interest in all aspects of both productions -
> including the music. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he'd been
> involved in the development of that lyric. The words express an
> essential quality of Danger man - which became a central theme of The
> Prisoner.
Fuck themes and theories! The very title *"The Prisoner"* is a bit of a
giveaway too, I'd have thought...
The Doctor
Dewey <dewey3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Alan Sailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
>news:dd6dnWfFl8c3GCrX...@bt.com:
>
>> Dewey wrote:
>>> Alan Sailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
>>> news:nuSdnQqa-JPu0ivX...@bt.com:
>>>
>>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I always thought of John Drake as Secret Agent and the Prisoner.
>>
>>>> They are not the same character.
>>>>
>>> That is quite a bold statement considering how much debate there is
>>> over this point. The Girl Who Was Death certainly provides ample
>>> evidence to the contrary.
>>>
>>
>> Pat mcGoohan said they're not the same character so they're not the
>> same character. How simple can it be to understand?
>>
>Lots of people say things for all kinds of reasons. Often, the same
>person will say totally contradictory things. There is ample evidence
>from the show itself to suggest that they in fact the same character.
>
The mannerisms differ little.
The Doctor
The Doctor
I love the end of that. Good night to all children everywhere.
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>news:tbrdb5dc3gjms9n7p...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 01:20:28 +0100, "john smith"
>> <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>>>news:trfdb5tklmfjccfl6...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 00:34:54 +0100, "john smith"
>>>> <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Alan Sailsbury" <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>news:5cednS81DpaTFyvX...@bt.com...
>>>>>> Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 19:10:07 +0100, "john smith"
>>>>>>> <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ignis Fatuus" <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:bjlcb5tqhs0dhoabo...@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 16:53:02 +0100, Alan Sailsbury
>>>>>>>>> <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Doctor wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>>> <965a56b4-60b5-42cb...@a6g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>>>>> AlanSailsbury <alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 19, 10:59=A0am, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 07:12:16 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ignis Fatuus wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2009 01:21:49 -0700 (PDT), solar penguin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <solar.peng...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Come on, John. =A0For once Yads is making perfect sense, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> topic. =A0A rare combination. =A0Let's have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carrot-and-stick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approa=
>>>>>>>>>>>> ch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here. =A0Complain when when really posts gibberish, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rare occasions when he does act reasonably.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps 'gibberish' is a bit strong... but I have to agree
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mandragora was a pretty poor story...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Poor? =A0Maybe, but it was still a _lot_ better than the over-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretentious wankery that was The Prisoner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I Much prefer Danger Man - which supplied all the background
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prisoner.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In what way? Two different series. Two different characters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I always thought of John Drake as Secret Agent and the Prisoner.
>>>>>>>>>> They are not the same character.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They Are.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've just been reading round this subject on the internet, being
>>>>>>>> curious
>>>>>>>> about "Danger Man" as I was too young to see it at the time (same
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> "The Prisoner" but I've obviously caught up on that in the
>>>>>>>> intervening
>>>>>>>> years), and I haven't found any such claim. "Similar" does not mean
>>>>>>>> "same"...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Iggy, you claim the Doctors have all been imposters after Hartnell,
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> we *know* they're the same character. Why are you now claiming
>>>>>>>> Danger
>>>>>>>> Man and The Prisoner are the same character when they clearly
>>>>>>>> aren't?
>>>>>>> It's not just my claim - and the similarities are there for anyone to
>>>>>>> see if they care to watch Danger Man. The most important links are
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> creators McGoohan and Markstein - both of whom worked on Danger Man.
>>>>>>> The basic concept of the Prisoner is found in the Secret Agent theme
>>>>>>> song which was associated with Danger Man from 1964.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'They've Given You A Number And They've Taken Away Your Name'
>>>>>>> http://www.the-prisoner-6.freeserve.co.uk/markstein.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like it or not if you watch DM you'll frequently hear the distinctive
>>>>>>> John Drake catchphrases:
>>>>>>> My name is Drake... John Drake (from 1960 - it preceded James Bond by
>>>>>>> two years);
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Be Seeing You...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remain unconvinced. John Drake was not Number 6, just the same actor
>>>>>> playing both parts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as Who is concerned - the man with ONE Heart and no place of
>>>>>>> origin belongs in an entirely different series to the rubber mask
>>>>>>> carnival that supplanted it in the seventies. I happen to prefer the
>>>>>>> original. Others find it stiflingly boring because it lacks the
>>>>>>> melodramatic content of the later shows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you loath Doctor Who so much after Bill Hartnell why did you watch
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> after he quit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Curiosity?
>>>>>
>>>>>Seriously, though: you'd HAVE to watch it, wouldn't you, to know how
>>>>>much
>>>>>they "ruined" it? How else would you know? The thing is - once you
>>>>>realised it was a pale imitation of the original - why would you watch
>>>>>it
>>>>>for another *FORTY YEARS*? It's not like the Doctor's ever gonna
>>>>>degenerate
>>>>>back into William Hartnell again, is it?
>>>>>
>>>> I stopped watching regularly when the tin dog appeared. I thought it
>>>> was rock bottom until I saw Adric.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>You like 'em young then, eh? ;-)
>>>
>>>
>> <forces a smile and judiciously avoids any comment that might smack of
>> hypocrisy>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Iggy likes "mature" character actors and at least he's got that mad
>>>>>professor guy in "Fringe" to watch. I quite like him too. Just
>>>>>watched
>>>>>the first episode of Series 2 and he's definitely the best thing about
>>>>>it!
>>>>>
>>>> When was That on ?????
>>>
>>>
>>>The new series started last Thursday:
>>>
>>>http://epguides.com/Fringe/
>>>
>>>"We have ways and means"...
>>>
>> You downloaded it!
>> For Shame!!!
>> <heads off to do a Usenet search>
>
>
>
>I didn't say that! I actually got a copy from a.... >cough<... friend of a
>friend...
>
Funny... turns out I've got a friend who knows a friend of your
friend. Bit of a shake-up eh! Not sure I like the new bird - but
we'll give it a whirl. The Cow's lost weight. Like the hat.
john smith
Small world, innit?
Bit of a shake-up eh! Not sure I like the new bird - but
> we'll give it a whirl. The Cow's lost weight. Like the hat.
The story was a bit rubbishy - typical J.J.Abrams "style over substance"
like he does on "Lost" - but it looks like it's gonna go somewhere quite
interesting. Walter's still the best character in it...
Ignis Fatuus
<alansa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Mcgoohan said 6 wasn't Drake. What more evidence do you need?
>
Newman said that The Doctor wasn't a Time lord... so I can appreciate
your dilemma.
Ignis Fatuus
Yes, we're all given numbers when we're born. The question is whether
or not we remain Just a number.
>
> It's a common theme in literature -
>> Sartre, Camus, Huxley, Orwell... - particularly suited to the
>> technological themes of Science Fiction. DW has touched on the subject
>> with Daleks, Cybermen, and in stories like Galaxy Four.
>
>
>
>So what? Conformity is a "common theme" in real life, too... You don't
>half sound like a pretentious git, you know?
>
>
Good point. I guess that's why it gets mentioned so often. In a sense,
Oedipus was given a number - and when he tried to shake it off, it
crept up and bit him in the arse. I suspect that Drake will always be
there to bite Number Six in the arse.
The key questions of The Prisoner:
Who Are You? and Who is Number One?
reflect the conflict of the individual with a conformist society. In
order to define himself, 6 has to tear off the mask and expose the
context that defines him. Number One is the Individual who is not
answerable - but when Six has endured conflict in order to assert
himself and expose the enigma, he tears off the mask and discovers -
Himself - and the discovery triggers the collapse of that society.
>
The other Key Question - Why Did You Resign? - seems innocuous and
almost irrelevant. 6 is offered his freedom if he answers it - and yet
he persistently refuses to do so. Is he afraid of facing his own
demons? Or is he refusing to yield the last vestige of his
individuality? What does he have to lose by answering that question
that is worth the sacrifice of his liberty.
Perhaps the question Is irrelevant. By supplying an answer 6 will be
yielding to conformity - completing the picture that contains his
soul. Society uses questionnaires to identify us and classify us. Once
we've allowed ourselves to be classified, we abdicate our capacity to
define ourselves.
Drake was a skilled government agent who was frequently called upon to
deploy those skills in depriving others of their liberty and
identities. Although he was frequently appalled by the demands of his
superiors, and the consequences of his actions, he subordinated his
feelings as an individual to his duties as an agent.
In carrying out those duties he frequently adopted disguises and
personas that masked his true identity - and even the 'facts' about
his true identity are questionable. In the first series he was an
American working for NATO - although in one episode (Find and Return)
he was seen as a freelancer negotiating payment for his services to
British Intelligence. In subsequent series he was an Irishman working
for British Intelligence (Battle Of The Cameras). Naturally courteous
but assertive, he could be loud, overbearing, demanding, shy,
diffident, or submissive, according to the needs of his cover.
In short, he was a character of multiple identities and personalities.
As The prisoner he met the obverse side of his profession. Deprived of
Identity and Status, he was tortured and coerced into accepting
conformity with the establishment that he had served and then
rejected. In order to survive these pressures he is forced to confront
the nature of that establishment and the unanswered question of his
identity.
Perhaps the Key Question of The Prisoner is not Who Are You? but Who
Am I?
Drake... John Drake, is not the only possibility; but it seems to be
the logical answer. Perhaps McGoohan denied it because he didn't Want
to provide an answer.
It's also the title of an early Danger Man story - and an echo of
Kafka's novel The Trial, with it's pseudonymous hero Josef K.
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Loved the delayed action crash. You've got to admit the 'style' has an
element of wit.
Of course Walter's the compelling reason to watch; but Peter's an
essential component of his context, and his own story looks very
promising too. Come to think of it Broyles, Nina and Olivia are all
interesting characters with some nice twists in their backgrounds.
I also enjoyed the treatment given to John Scott. Neat twist on the
'romantic interest'. Mark valley does a nice line in rugged pinup
types who are there to be kicked into touch (see Boston Legal). Wonder
how he'll shape up in the upcoming Human Target.
It'll be good to see Nimoy back in a couple of weeks.
john smith
Assuming our mutual friend-of-a-friend turns up with the goods, of course...
Ignis Fatuus
<the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
a sort of inter-dimensional transfer...
Moor Larkin
> Drake... John Drake, is not the only possibility; but it seems to be
> the logical answer. Perhaps McGoohan denied it because he didn't Want
> to provide an answer.
My main point is about intent I think. It is one thing to say that
McGoohan had made Drake and so when he made Six, they bore many
similarities to each other.
It is quite another to say McGoohan *knew* it was Drake but asked
everyone to deny it so he didn't have to pay a few quid in royalties.
That seems downright insulting to him.
I daresay McGoohan felt he was playing a different secret agent and as
an actor also felt a little peeved that people thought he acted Six
the same way as he acted Drake. I think if people watched more Danger
Man they would see the differences quite clearly, as well as the
occasional similarities.
One poster here said about the significance of the phrase "Be Seeing
You"... well... if Number Six had gone around constantly saying, "I'm
Obliged"... they might have had a stronger point......
And if you don't know what I'm talik ing abut when I refer to "I'm
Obliged"... you need to watch more Danger Man than just 'Colony 3' or
'The Ubiquitous Mr.Lovehandles'.
Moor
Ignis Fatuus
<moorl...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 22 Sep, 05:16, Ignis Fatuus <Ig...@fatuusisland.com> wrote:
>> Drake... John Drake, is not the only possibility; but it seems to be
>> the logical answer. Perhaps McGoohan denied it because he didn't Want
>> to provide an answer.
>
>
>
>My main point is about intent I think. It is one thing to say that
>McGoohan had made Drake and so when he made Six, they bore many
>similarities to each other.
>
>It is quite another to say McGoohan *knew* it was Drake but asked
>everyone to deny it so he didn't have to pay a few quid in royalties.
>That seems downright insulting to him.
>
>I daresay McGoohan felt he was playing a different secret agent and as
>an actor also felt a little peeved that people thought he acted Six
>the same way as he acted Drake. I think if people watched more Danger
>Man they would see the differences quite clearly, as well as the
>occasional similarities.
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us.
>
>One poster here said about the significance of the phrase "Be Seeing
>You"... well... if Number Six had gone around constantly saying, "I'm
>Obliged"... they might have had a stronger point......
>
>And if you don't know what I'm talik ing abut when I refer to "I'm
>Obliged"... you need to watch more Danger Man than just 'Colony 3' or
>'The Ubiquitous Mr.Lovehandles'.
>
Much Obliged.
Be seeing you...