Why did Sgt. Zale leave?
Matt J. McCullar
out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
Matt J. McCullar
Arlington, TX
George Hiebert
I agree but I don't know the answer. Shortly after his mash stint I
remember he was on a series starring a puppet named Madam. Anyone
remember that show?
Arch Stanton
>From: George Hiebert <ge...@direct.ca>
>Date: Thu, 25 November 1999 08:33 PM EST
>Message-id: <383DE3...@direct.ca>
Yep. Madame's Place:
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0083444
Johnny Haymer (Zale) died in 1989 :-(
Kurt Bowes
alot of those semi-regulars were from the first season (i.e. Spearchucker,
Dish, Knocko, Scorch).
I did notice something kind of interesting a while back though. There was
episode from season 3 which guest starred Alex Karras (big marine who wanted
to pay back Hawk for saving). You remember? Radar got 'slinked' by Mary
Kay Place and a G.I. in the post-op had this cat. Anyhow, the voice on the
radio when Klinger was getting married was that of Linda Meiklejohn. She
portrayed Scorch in season 1. She isn't mentionned in the credits but I
know it's her voice.
Anyone else catch that?
Flying V
wrote:
>Matt J. McCullar wrote:
>>
>> IMO, Sgt. Zale was much funnier than Sgt. Rizzo. Why was Zale written
>> out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
>>
>> Matt J. McCullar
>> Arlington, TX
>
>I agree but I don't know the answer. Shortly after his mash stint I
>remember he was on a series starring a puppet named Madam. Anyone
>remember that show?
Oh yea! It was called 'Madame's Place'. A truly forgettable show,
other than it co-starred Judy Landers. Ahhh, Judy Landers, terrific
actress - NOT!!! Not too hard on the eyes either ;-)
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
<mccu...@flash.net> wrote:
>IMO, Sgt. Zale was much funnier than Sgt. Rizzo. Why was Zale written
>out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
>
>Matt J. McCullar
>Arlington, TX
Au contraire, Matt. For me, Zale was too 'normal' for the 4077. Other
than when he was fighting with Klinger, he didn't have too many
memorable scenes. Now Luther Rizzo. Man, what a character. Whenever he
said, 'my bouncing baby boy, little Billie Bubba', or anything about
pig's feet and hog's jowels, I died. 'A little heaven on the hoof'.
Remember that ep when he was teaching driving school to Potter. Oh
man, what hilarity.
"I'm going to refer to this here jeep as a VEE- hicle".
And then, towards the end, he's giving Potter the driving test and
Potter almost hits Klinger with the jeep. They walk over, pick up
Klinger and Potter says (to Klinger), 'You idiot. You've made me flunk
the driving test!', and Rizzo says, 'Perish the thought!' and they
both drop Klinger back to the ground.
My favorite Rizzo ep by far.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Ron Kitchell
George Hiebert wrote:
> Matt J. McCullar wrote:
> >
> > IMO, Sgt. Zale was much funnier than Sgt. Rizzo. Why was Zale written
> > out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
> >
> > Matt J. McCullar
> > Arlington, TX
>
> I agree but I don't know the answer. Shortly after his mash stint I
> remember he was on a series starring a puppet named Madam. Anyone
> remember that show?
Madame's Place. Horrible. Unless you're a big Judy Landers fan.
Ron
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Remember that ep when he was teaching driving school to Potter. Oh
: man, what hilarity.
: "I'm going to refer to this here jeep as a VEE- hicle".
: My favorite Rizzo ep by far.
Well, I haven't anything against the Rizzo character, but that episode -
"Wheelers and Dealers" - is the epitome of every reason I feel M*A*S*H
went downhill after Radar left.
(Those of you who resent reading something on the newsgroup that you've
read before may skip the rest of this post. Gene, you're new ...)
When I read the TVGuide capsulation of that story in the previous week's
issue, my reaction was, "This show is set in the 50s - it wasn't made
then!" I watched it anyway. The drivers' ed. plot was played for laughs
and the poker plot was played for tears. There was a thread a few months
ago about the "Two Story" problem; I don't recall what conclusions were
drawn, but I think it was a symptom rather than a cause.
Maybe the deterioration I see would've happened anyway, with the
departures of such as Gelbart and Reynolds, but I'll always believe that
they'd just've kept themselves fresh if they'd done what'd always worked
before and brought in a new character when Radar left.
--
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman: The Daily Cartoons
Paul Gadzikowski - DOCTOR WHO, STAR TREK, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER,
M*A*S*H - King Arthur - Archy the Cockroach
scar...@iglou.com NEW 11/26: CASTING BREAD Chapter 1 WHO/TOS
George Hiebert
>
> >Matt J. McCullar wrote:
> >>
> >> IMO, Sgt. Zale was much funnier than Sgt. Rizzo. Why was Zale written
> >> out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
> >>
> >> Matt J. McCullar
> >> Arlington, TX
> >
> >I agree but I don't know the answer. Shortly after his mash stint I
> >remember he was on a series starring a puppet named Madam. Anyone
> >remember that show?
>
> other than it co-starred Judy Landers. Ahhh, Judy Landers, terrific
> actress - NOT!!! Not too hard on the eyes either ;-)
Man I was trying to remember the name of that babe. I guess she's the
reason I even remember that show. What was the name of the puppeteer
behind Madame?
Flying V
wrote:
>Well, I haven't anything against the Rizzo character, but that episode -
>"Wheelers and Dealers" - is the epitome of every reason I feel M*A*S*H
>went downhill after Radar left.
Yea, unfortunately, the declination of every good series is an
inevitability. I've always admired the ones who choose to go out 'on
top' as opposed to digging a grave for themselves, at the expense of
their loyal fans. But aside from the normal 'downhill phenomena' that
occurs with every successful show, IMO, M*A*S*H never went downhill to
the point of being bad. Wouldn't you agree?
>(Those of you who resent reading something on the newsgroup that you've
>read before may skip the rest of this post. Gene, you're new ...)
Thanks Paul. I only hope that others here will extend this same
courtesy to me. Again, I thank you.
>When I read the TVGuide capsulation of that story in the previous week's
>issue, my reaction was, "This show is set in the 50s - it wasn't made
>then!" I watched it anyway. The drivers' ed. plot was played for laughs
>and the poker plot was played for tears. There was a thread a few months
>ago about the "Two Story" problem; I don't recall what conclusions were
>drawn, but I think it was a symptom rather than a cause.
Sounds like an interesting thread to read. I'm off to deja to search
their archive. And yea, I agree, the driver's ed. plot was purely
tongue in cheek, yet memorable, for me, which is why I noted it. So
memorable in fact, I'm ashamed to say I forget what the poker plot was
about. All I remember is Klinger couldn't make it to the game because
of the inventory reports he had to finish and then due to the tutoring
of Potter.
>Maybe the deterioration I see would've happened anyway, with the
>departures of such as Gelbart and Reynolds, but I'll always believe that
>they'd just've kept themselves fresh if they'd done what'd always worked
>before and brought in a new character when Radar left.
I think the deterioration is inescapable. Eventually the well runs
dry. I've never considered the idea of replacing Radar with a fresh
actor. Hmmm, interesting notion. Perhaps this may have helped. The
show certainly holds precedence for replacing key actors and
perpetuating success.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
wrote:
>Man I was trying to remember the name of that babe. I guess she's the
>reason I even remember that show. What was the name of the puppeteer
>behind Madame?
Ah yes, Judy Landers <W.C. Fields impersonation applied> What a woman!
I used to have posters of her (wearing a bikini of course) on my wall,
right next to my Farrah posters, when I was a teenager.
As for the puppeteer, his name is Waylon Smithers. Remember, they were
called 'Waylon & Madame'. I think he's dead now because I found his
name on a list of characters played by Harry Shearer on 'The
Simpsons'. But I wouldn't swear to that.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
Ahh, now I remember. The poker plot. B.J. went nuts, feeling sorry for
himself because Peg had to take a job to pay off the 2nd mortgage,
right? And it had that great line by Margaret (one of only a very few,
IMO), when she said to B.J., 'Maybe you do have the most to lose, but
that's only 'cause you've got the most'.
Yea, great line. Even Hawkeye followed by saying, 'I don't think I
could improve on that'.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Ron Kitchell
Flying V wrote:
I thought it was Waylon Flowers. Didn't matter. Even the puppet couldn't
act on that show :)
Ron
Flying V
<rjk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I thought it was Waylon Flowers. Didn't matter. Even the puppet couldn't
>act on that show :)
>
>Ron
Hey, you're absolutely right, Ron. As soon as I read 'Flowers' in your
post, it came back to me. Should have done a little more digging :-)
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
George Hiebert
>
> On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:46:29 -0800, Ron Kitchell
> <rjk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >I thought it was Waylon Flowers. Didn't matter. Even the puppet couldn't
> >act on that show :)
> >
> >Ron
>
> Hey, you're absolutely right, Ron. As soon as I read 'Flowers' in your
> post, it came back to me. Should have done a little more digging :-)
Ron is "Mr. TV Trivia" and he's almost always right.
Audrey Meusel
about the way to manage the
army. "They hate it when you're happy, never smile", etc. That one's a
classic. There's more to it, but
it's all in the exchange between the two.
I know there are many people who don't like or appreciate Rizzo, but that
scene makes the character
enjoyable for me.
alm
PS to Flying V: Margaret had plenty of great lines! More in the first 6
years, though, and
esp. in the first 3, in her scenes with Frank.
Flying V <gen...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3841d3dc...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> On Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:41:12 GMT, "Matt J. McCullar"
> <mccu...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> >IMO, Sgt. Zale was much funnier than Sgt. Rizzo. Why was Zale written
> >out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
> >
> >Matt J. McCullar
> >Arlington, TX
>
> Au contraire, Matt. For me, Zale was too 'normal' for the 4077. Other
> than when he was fighting with Klinger, he didn't have too many
> memorable scenes. Now Luther Rizzo. Man, what a character. Whenever he
> said, 'my bouncing baby boy, little Billie Bubba', or anything about
> pig's feet and hog's jowels, I died. 'A little heaven on the hoof'.
>
> Remember that ep when he was teaching driving school to Potter. Oh
> man, what hilarity.
>
> "I'm going to refer to this here jeep as a VEE- hicle".
>
> And then, towards the end, he's giving Potter the driving test and
> Potter almost hits Klinger with the jeep. They walk over, pick up
> Klinger and Potter says (to Klinger), 'You idiot. You've made me flunk
> the driving test!', and Rizzo says, 'Perish the thought!' and they
> both drop Klinger back to the ground.
>
> My favorite Rizzo ep by far.
>
> --
> Gene Vanderhoof
> gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
<audreyl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>My favorite Rizzo scene is in "April Fools", when Rizzo explains to Klinger
>about the way to manage the
>army. "They hate it when you're happy, never smile", etc. That one's a
>classic. There's more to it, but
>it's all in the exchange between the two.
Yes, yes, yes. There were many little exchanges like that which were
so memorable, especially the ones between Rizzo and Charles, that are
absolutely hilarious.
>I know there are many people who don't like or appreciate Rizzo, but that
>scene makes the character
>enjoyable for me.
>
>alm
>
>PS to Flying V: Margaret had plenty of great lines! More in the first 6
>years, though, and
>esp. in the first 3, in her scenes with Frank.
Oooooh, I was afraid I was going to ruffle some feathers for saying
that. Okay, I concede, the early years when Margaret was Hot Lips were
the okay. When she and Frank were a couple. It was after the
transformation from Hot Lips to Margaret, starting with her breaking
up with Frank and particularly when she demanded respect from Hawkeye
that jaded my opinion of her. And the whole deal with Donald
Penobscott, the meeting/marrying/divorcing was, for me, easily the
worst/least needed part of the entire M*A*S*H saga. It always seemed
so inconsequential to whatever story the show happened to be about at
the time. It seemed as though the writers were simply trying to
accomodate Loretta Swit's concern over the growth of her character.
If asked, I would have to say that she was my least favorite
character.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Buck Rojerz
>On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:52:09 -0800, George Hiebert <ge...@direct.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>Man I was trying to remember the name of that babe. I guess she's the
>>reason I even remember that show. What was the name of the puppeteer
>>behind Madame?
>
>Ah yes, Judy Landers <W.C. Fields impersonation applied> What a woman!
>
>I used to have posters of her (wearing a bikini of course) on my wall,
>right next to my Farrah posters, when I was a teenager.
>
>As for the puppeteer, his name is Waylon Smithers. Remember, they were
>called 'Waylon & Madame'. I think he's dead now because I found his
>name on a list of characters played by Harry Shearer on 'The
>Simpsons'. But I wouldn't swear to that.
>
YES! Oh, man that's right. I haven't thought about that comedy duo(?) in
years. I remember seeing a show of theirs. (must've been on cable) It was a
very raunchy act where Madam said something like, "Get used to the hearing me
say F__k, 'cause it's my favorite word", and she used it fluently indeed. Now
I'm not a prude, but that did spoil the act a little for me. Very funny tho'.
buck
Mikael Uhlin
>the early years when Margaret was Hot Lips were the okay. When she
>and Frank were a couple. It was after the transformation from Hot Lips
>to Margaret, starting with her breaking up with Frank and particularly when
>she demanded respect from Hawkeye that jaded my opinion of her. And the
>whole deal with Donald Penobscott, the meeting/marrying/divorcing was, for
>me, easily the worst/least needed part of the entire M*A*S*H saga. It
always
>seemed so inconsequential to whatever story the show happened to be about
>at the time. It seemed as though the writers were simply trying to
accomodate
>Loretta Swit's concern over the growth of her character.
I've always regarded the deal with Penobscott as a way of writing Frank
Burns out of the series, because it all leads up to his touching line
"Goodbye Margaret!" (which turned out to be "Goodbye Frank" as well) after
the marriage.
And after Frank was gone, it didn't take long before Margaret's marriage
with Penobscott went downhill.
The change from Hot Lips to Margaret may have been something Loretta Swit
wanted to happen, but it was also - in a way - a natural and slow
development of the series.
And it also happened in the film. After Frank Burns was sent home, Hot Lips
more and more became one of the boys, especially during the football game.
And she even had a love affair with Duke Forrest.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Yea, unfortunately, the declination of every good series is an
: inevitability. I've always admired the ones who choose to go out 'on
: top' as opposed to digging a grave for themselves, at the expense of
: their loyal fans. But aside from the normal 'downhill phenomena' that
: occurs with every successful show, IMO, M*A*S*H never went downhill to
: the point of being bad. Wouldn't you agree?
Even bad M*A*S*H must be better than most of tv sitcomdom, yes. I realize
that objectively, but I find it hard to think so about the M*A*S*H which I
fell fell far below their previous standards. That's my opinion, I could
be wrong!
--
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
http://members.iglou.com.scarfman
Now "Rocky and Bullwinkle" is being made a movie. I wonder which of them
Brendan Fraser will play?
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: As for the puppeteer, his name is Waylon Smithers. Remember, they were
: called 'Waylon & Madame'. I think he's dead now because I found his
: name on a list of characters played by Harry Shearer on 'The
: Simpsons'. But I wouldn't swear to that.
Surely that merely means that they couldn't or wouldn't get him to come on
as himself. William Shatner and James Doohan have been impersonated on THE
SIMPSONS, and they're not dead.
Flying V
wrote:
>Surely that merely means that they couldn't or wouldn't get him to come on
>as himself. William Shatner and James Doohan have been impersonated on THE
>SIMPSONS, and they're not dead.
You're right... that was a poor assumption on my part.
However, here is what some 'searching' turned up:
OCTOBER 11
DEATHS
1988 - Waylon Flowers, puppeteer, age 48
This info can be found at:
http://www2.misnet.com/~ronnieg/history/1011.html
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
wrote:
>Even bad M*A*S*H must be better than most of tv sitcomdom, yes. I realize
>that objectively, but I find it hard to think so about the M*A*S*H which I
>fell fell far below their previous standards. That's my opinion, I could
>be wrong!
AFAIK, no opinion is ever wrong.
But hey! Why can't I see your web site? I clicked, I cut and pasted,
I typed, I entered, all to no avail. What gives?
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
wrote:
>But hey! Why can't I see your web site? I clicked, I cut and pasted,
>I typed, I entered, all to no avail. What gives?
Okay Paul, I've figured it out. The problem is with your address:
http://members.iglou.com.scarfman
There should be a '/' between 'com' and 'scarfman'.
When I type in the '/' I get your text website. Is there a graphical
site as well?
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Ron Kitchell
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI wrote:
> Even bad M*A*S*H must be better than most of tv sitcomdom, yes. I realize
> that objectively, but I find it hard to think so about the M*A*S*H which I
> fell fell far below their previous standards. That's my opinion, I could
> be wrong!
I agree with Paul that after Radar left (seasons 8 thru 11) just weren't up to
the incredibly high standards the show had set for itself. Were they better
than most other sitcoms? Part of me wants to say yes, but part of me remembers
the Cement Floor episode and the Swedish guy who wants to see his mother
episode and the Bridge game episode and can't honestly say that. When MASH is
on FX, I'll watch it 90 percent of the time. The other 10 percent will almost
always feature shows from the later years.
Ron
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: And after Frank was gone, it didn't take long before Margaret's marriage
: with Penobscott went downhill.
>After< Frank was gone? My perception of Penobscot's character was such
that I was surprised he actually married her.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: But hey! Why can't I see your web site? I clicked, I cut and pasted,
: I typed, I entered, all to no avail. What gives?
I don't know.
Did you leave out the second colon? That's not part of it.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:20:34 GMT, gen...@netscape.net (Flying V)
: wrote:
: >But hey! Why can't I see your web site? I clicked, I cut and pasted,
: >I typed, I entered, all to no avail. What gives?
: Okay Paul, I've figured it out. The problem is with your address:
: http://members.iglou.com.scarfman
: There should be a '/' between 'com' and 'scarfman'.
Thanks for noting that. No one's ever mentioned that before.
: When I type in the '/' I get your text website. Is there a graphical
: site as well?
Yes, and there are links to each other on each of them.
Audrey Meusel
you said.
She IS my favorite character, but not for the Penobsnot debacle, for sure!
Though, I agree with Mikhael Uhlin that the marriage got rid of Frank and
changed her in a good way until season 8, and then the beauty queen stuff.
Ick.
But also, that when Frank left, she became one of the gang WAS a natural
progression for the character (yes, the movie).
Aside from the actor wanting character growth, which was a legitimate
concern, they could have
gone in many directions with the character, and Loretta Swit had the talent
to pull it off when the
writing was good (witness the Hot Lips years). But they didn't always do
justice to her
or Margaret, because they didn't always know what to do with her (one writer
as much as admitted
that in the "Making MASH" documentary). My favorite years were 2-6/7.
Before that she was too
one-dimensional and after that, they reduced her to a man-hungry beauty
queen, which was too bad,
because there was a lot of interesting stuff they could have done. I think
her last really good episode
was "Nurse Doctor". Maybe it was more problematic for you when she started
to GET respect from
Hawkeye (someone with her background in her position WOULD demand it, and be
justified). But
MASH was about Hawkeye and his point of view. Given that, I thought it was
remarkable that one
could have any sympathy for her pov at all, but if you look, it's there, in
our brilliant writers and acting
performances of the first 5 years!
Actually, I love all the characters, but Margaret had the most inner
conflict, being both medical and
military to the core, two values which were almost mutually exclusive. I
wonder if she secretly wanted
to be a doctor, but her dad wouldn't support her, so she joined the army
(the family business) to get
some medical training and at least became a nurse. But they didn't go
there, they stuck to her
relationships with men, which got boring. And they only made fun of her
desire for command, but that
might have been a rich area to explore, as well (note the difference between
"Carry On, Hawkeye", where he
didn't care that she took over command when Henry was sick, because he
couldn't be bothered, and "Commander
Pierce", where she was really the ranking Major in age and seniority, even
over Charles, but never got to be
second in command once Frank left, and wasn't even considered as acting
commander when Potter had to leave).
'Nough said.
Flying V <gen...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3843d0b7...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:34:16 -0500, "Audrey Meusel"
> <audreyl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >My favorite Rizzo scene is in "April Fools", when Rizzo explains to
Klinger
> >about the way to manage the
> >army. "They hate it when you're happy, never smile", etc. That one's a
> >classic. There's more to it, but
> >it's all in the exchange between the two.
>
> Yes, yes, yes. There were many little exchanges like that which were
> so memorable, especially the ones between Rizzo and Charles, that are
> absolutely hilarious.
>
> >I know there are many people who don't like or appreciate Rizzo, but that
> >scene makes the character
> >enjoyable for me.
> >
> >alm
> >
> >PS to Flying V: Margaret had plenty of great lines! More in the first 6
> >years, though, and
> >esp. in the first 3, in her scenes with Frank.
>
> Oooooh, I was afraid I was going to ruffle some feathers for saying
> that. Okay, I concede, the early years when Margaret was Hot Lips were
> the okay. When she and Frank were a couple. It was after the
> transformation from Hot Lips to Margaret, starting with her breaking
> up with Frank and particularly when she demanded respect from Hawkeye
> that jaded my opinion of her. And the whole deal with Donald
> Penobscott, the meeting/marrying/divorcing was, for me, easily the
> worst/least needed part of the entire M*A*S*H saga. It always seemed
> so inconsequential to whatever story the show happened to be about at
> the time. It seemed as though the writers were simply trying to
> accomodate Loretta Swit's concern over the growth of her character.
George Hiebert
>
> On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:37:04 -0800, Ron Kitchell
> <rjk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > but part of me remembers
> >the Cement Floor episode and the Swedish guy who wants to see his mother
> >episode and the Bridge game episode
>
> none of them. And yea, the one about the Swedish guy was, dare I say
> it, very bad. How quickly I forget.
Ya when you compare that ep with the nifty humor of the early era it's
kind of painful to watch.
Cory
> Flying V (gen...@netscape.net) wrote:
> : On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:20:34 GMT, gen...@netscape.net (Flying V)
> : wrote:
> : Okay Paul, I've figured it out. The problem is with your address:
> : http://members.iglou.com.scarfman
>
> : There should be a '/' between 'com' and 'scarfman'.
<then Paul said back... I hope my editing was clear enough from there...>
> Thanks for noting that. No one's ever mentioned that before.
>
> : When I type in the '/' I get your text website. Is there a graphical
> : site as well?
>
> Yes, and there are links to each other on each of them.
>
> --
> http://members.iglou.com/scarfman: The Daily Cartoons
Careful, Paul. You just did it again... there should be NO colon after
"scarfman", OR it should be spaced away from the URL, like this...
"/scarfman :The Daily Cartoons", or something similar (remove the quotes,
too).
> Paul Gadzikowski - DOCTOR WHO, STAR TREK, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER,
> M*A*S*H - King Arthur - Archy the Cockroach
> scar...@iglou.com NEW 11/26: CASTING BREAD Chapter 1 WHO/TOS
--- Cory
--
Heisman for Dayne!!!
*REMOVE* the 'purrs' to reply...
Cory
gen...@netscape.net says...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:08:08 -0600, onyx3...@xoommail.com (Cory)
> wrote:
>
> >> http://members.iglou.com/scarfman: The Daily Cartoons
> >
> >Careful, Paul. You just did it again... there should be NO colon after
> >"scarfman", OR it should be spaced away from the URL, like this...
> >"/scarfman :The Daily Cartoons", or something similar (remove the quotes,
> >too).
>
>
> browser, Netscape Navigator, don't like the colon at all.
>
> --
> Gene Vanderhoof
> gen...@netscape.net
And yet, I just noticed I left it there anyway... duh. Sorry. It should
be http://members.iglou.com/scarfman
Audrey Meusel
I disagree that they were two different characters. If you look at
the Hot Lips years, you can see instances of Margaret peeking through,
and vice versa. I'm thinking of "Sticky Wicket", "Aid Station" and some
of her sweet moments with Frank (and there were some).
And, in later years, when she was the tough major, esp. in "Nurse Doctor"
(when she reprimanded Gail Harris, future M.D., and in "Images", when she
reprimanded Cooper), you could see Hot Lips.
That's Loretta Swit's genius, as SHE saw the continuity of the character, so
worked hard to show it to us.
However, I DO agree that later Margaret got very shrill and it became
painful to watch her. There is only so much one can do with a script,
however,
and I think they ALL relaxed their efforts in the last 3 years. Certainly,
Potter's
tantrums got very tiresome, as well as BJ's whining about his kid and
Hawkeye's self-righteousness. Charles was the only character who was
interesting at the end, with the exception of the movie, which was almost
back
up to the earlier standards, but even in that, the performances were uneven.
My favorite Margaret moment in the finale was Hawkeye's first surgery after
returning to the 4077th. She VERY GENTLY puts the scalpel in his hand and
then gives a worried, oh-so-subtle, shake of her head to Potter. Spoke
volumes.
This, in contrast, to her overwrought scenes about her letters from her
father. Ack.
I'm not ready to deal with Hot Lips' promotion technique (and certainly not
to
start that old slut discussion again), but I agree that some of her
behaviors were
definitely NOT worthy of respect. But her nursing (medical) ability WAS.
Also,
remember that this was ALL from HAWKEYE'S point of view, and Hawkeye
had no use for military protocol, respect for superior officers, etc. at
all, so we
are seeing her through (his) biased viewpoint, not an independent viewpoint
(my
theory of MASH), AND up until "The Nurses" in season 5, we almost never saw
her
relating to her nurses independent of Hawkeye's observations (and
interference), so
we really don't know how she handled them.
So, chew on this for a while! And everyone else, please join in! :)
Flying V <gen...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3846e515...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> First, let me say I think your post was excellent and I enjoyed
> reading it very much.
>
> Second, I think Loretta Swit is an extremely talented and creative
> actor, and, maybe I shouldn't say this, but what the hell, a beautiful
> woman as well.
>
> As for your post, the most interesting part, for me, was when you
> mentioned that Margaret had the most inner conflict. I agree, for your
> points are valid, as they relate to Margaret. But I see inner conflict
> for yet another reason and it's this: She had the most inner conflict
> because, in essence, she was two entirely different and distinct
> characters - first 'Hot Lips' and then later, Margaret.
>
> IMO, Hot Lips (the character which I enjoyed the most and who I think
> Swit portrayed brilliantly, performing her finest work) didn't deserve
> Hawkeye's, or anyone else's, respect. Major or not. Head nurse or not.
> Surely she got to the position she was in partly, if not fully, due to
> her promiscuity. I mean, she slept with (it was strongly implied)
> every general she ever worked under (no pun intended). You see this
> again and again throughout the early seasons. And even later. When she
> was at the point of playing Margaret. There was the one ep where she
> had a general come to the 4077 to observe her and her nursing staff
> performing triage. Afterwards, in her tent, the general tells her he's
> so proud of her (yea right) and that he has an opening for her in
> Tokyo. He tells her, 'It will be just like old times, with late night
> dinners...', and evenings engaged in some sexually explicit game they
> used to play (I don't remember the exact line, something about the
> prisoner and the warden's wife, I think). And then he eventually tells
> her, 'The promotion is real. I'll make you a colonel'. Of course, now
> she's in full 'Margaret' character and flatly refuses. She's highly
> offended and starts in with her protests and 'respect me for who I am,
> I've earned it' repertoire. And yes, 'Margaret' did deserve respect
> and, also due to the simple waving of a writer's pen, she 'earned' it.
>
> So, to me the 'inner conflict' also stems from the fact that she was
> two completely different (differently written) characters. And all I'm
> saying is, I preferred the former as opposed to the latter. Swit was
> at her most creative peak, playing 'Hot Lips'. In fact, I dislike
> 'Margaret' Houlihan so much, I often fast forward thru her scenes. I
> detest her yelling and screaming all the time and her less than
> brilliant, or even interesting, storylines. Respect her, yes. Like
> her, no.
>
> I guess I'm just a die-hard Hot Lips fan.
>
> --
> Gene Vanderhoof
> gen...@netscape.net
me...@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu
<audreyl...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> My feathers aren't ruffled about Margaret, because I agree with most of what
> you said. She IS my favorite character, but not for the Penobsnot debacle,
> for sure! Though, I agree with Mikhael Uhlin that the marriage got rid of
> Frank and changed her in a good way until season 8, and then the beauty queen
> stuff. Ick. But also, that when Frank left, she became one of the gang WAS
> a natural progression for the character (yes, the movie).
> Aside from the actor wanting character growth, which was a legitimate
> concern, they could have gone in many directions with the character, and
> Loretta Swit had the talent to pull it off when the writing was good
> (witness the Hot Lips years). But they didn't always do justice to her or
> Margaret, because they didn't always know what to do with her (one writer as
> much as admitted that in the "Making MASH" documentary). My favorite years
> were 2-6/7. Before that she was too one-dimensional and after that, they
> reduced her to a man-hungry beauty queen, which was too bad, because there
> was a lot of interesting stuff they could have done. I think her last really
> good episode was "Nurse Doctor". Maybe it was more problematic for you when
> she started to GET respect from Hawkeye (someone with her background in her
> position WOULD demand it, and be justified). But MASH was about Hawkeye
> and his point of view. Given that, I thought it was remarkable that one
> could have any sympathy for her pov at all, but if you look, it's there, in
> our brilliant writers and acting performances of the first 5 years!
> Actually, I love all the characters, but Margaret had the most inner
> conflict, being both medical and military to the core, two values which were
> almost mutually exclusive. I wonder if she secretly wanted to be a doctor,
> but her dad wouldn't support her, so she joined the army (the family
> business) to get some medical training and at least became a nurse. But
> they didn't go there, they stuck to her relationships with men, which got
> boring. And they only made fun of her desire for command, but that might
> have been a rich area to explore, as well (note the difference between
> "Carry On, Hawkeye", where he didn't care that she took over command when
> Henry was sick, because he couldn't be bothered, and "Commander Pierce",
> where she was really the ranking Major in age and seniority, even over
> Charles, but never got to be second in command once Frank left, and wasn't
> even considered as acting commander when Potter had to leave).
My maiden post, after lurking for several months... hello fellow M*A*S*H fans!
It's swell to see such a healthy newsgroup for this series.
Audrey, I pretty much agree with everything you said above. One suspects it
happened that way for Loretta Swit and the Margaret character for a couple of
reasons: 1) It's not far off the way Margaret Houlihan probably would have been
thought of in the Army of the time, and 2) The writers weren't used to thinking
about women in those dramatic terms, because writers on *most* TV series
weren't used to thinking about women in those dramatic terms. Heck, that kind
of writing for women is pretty darn recent. Some of that comes from having
more women around as writers, some comes from having more women in production,
and some of it comes from everyone, men and women, being used to thinking about
women in other than relationship/helper roles.
Many female cast members on Saturday Night Live, another long-running TV show,
have described how tough it is to get their sketch ideas on the air, not just
because of the competitive atmosphere but because the writers don't connect
with humor concepts for the women. (My instant insight: except for Gilda
Radner, who came up with two or three repeating gag lines, something that for
better or worse has always been an SNL staple.) But I digress -- SNL is just a
corroborating example.
Yeah, M*A*S*H was about Hawkeye and his fellow sufferers in the ROK, and it was
made when it was made, so I try not to beat up on it too much. Margaret is
still a multi-layered character who got to show a lot of her stuff, even if
the writers missed some good bets with her.
Without M*A*S*H there probably wouldn't be an "e.r.", too, where women *do* get
written into dramatic ideas involving work as well as relationships.
Vanessa
Flying V
<rjk...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> but part of me remembers
>the Cement Floor episode and the Swedish guy who wants to see his mother
>episode and the Bridge game episode
Oh man, Ron, you are soooo right about the abovementioned ep's. I like
none of them. And yea, the one about the Swedish guy was, dare I say
it, very bad. How quickly I forget.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
Flying V
wrote:
>Ya when you compare that ep with the nifty humor of the early era it's
>kind of painful to watch.
It's almost like they were scrambling just to get something done by a
deadline or something. Even the acting, in some scenes, was very poor,
compared to level we had come to expect. And the writing, well, it
speaks for itself.
There are several ep's that I never watch anymore, whether on TV or
video, and that one is definitely on the list.
Anyone know who wrote that one (the Yost Vanleder story)? My book only
covers seasons 1-8.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
JayZ755
>Swit portrayed brilliantly, performing her finest work) didn't deserve
>Hawkeye's, or anyone else's, respect. Major or not. Head nurse or not.
>Surely she got to the position she was in partly, if not fully, due to
>her promiscuity. I mean, she slept with (it was strongly implied)
>every general she ever worked under (no pun intended). You see this
>again and again throughout the early seasons. And even later.
I think Hot Lips wanted to get ahead. I think she slept with people in
authority. I don't think she said to herself "Hey - if I sleep with generals,
it will advance my career." I don't think she usually was that sort of cold,
calculating person. I think she was attracted to people in positions of power,
or who respected the military system (Frank Burns.) If she was entirely
calculating, she would have been sleeping with Henry Blake instead of Frank.
On the other hand, I'm sure a rival (i.e. someone in competition for the same
job) would interpret her actions much less favorably. Anyone with a "close"
relationship with an authority figure always has to face those accusations.
You can't expect everyone else to read between the lines for you.
> When she
>was at the point of playing Margaret. There was the one ep where she
>had a general come to the 4077 to observe her and her nursing staff
>performing triage. Afterwards, in her tent, the general tells her he's
>so proud of her (yea right) and that he has an opening for her in
>Tokyo. He tells her, 'It will be just like old times, with late night
>dinners...', and evenings engaged in some sexually explicit game they
>used to play (I don't remember the exact line, something about the
>prisoner and the warden's wife, I think). And then he eventually tells
>her, 'The promotion is real. I'll make you a colonel'. Of course, now
>she's in full 'Margaret' character and flatly refuses. She's highly
>offended and starts in with her protests and 'respect me for who I am,
>I've earned it' repertoire. And yes, 'Margaret' did deserve respect
>and, also due to the simple waving of a writer's pen, she 'earned' it.
>
>So, to me the 'inner conflict' also stems from the fact that she was
>two completely different (differently written) characters. And all I'm
>saying is, I preferred the former as opposed to the latter. Swit was
>at her most creative peak, playing 'Hot Lips'. In fact, I dislike
>'Margaret' Houlihan so much, I often fast forward thru her scenes. I
>detest her yelling and screaming all the time and her less than
>brilliant, or even interesting, storylines. Respect her, yes. Like
>her, no.
>
>I guess I'm just a die-hard Hot Lips fan.
>
I also preferred Hot Lips to Margaret. Hot Lips passion or horniness or
whatnot made her vulnerable and real, similar to the way that Frank Burns was
both less likable and more sympathetic that Winchester. Margaret seemed to
spend most of her time being strident or giving speeches, and it's sometimes
hard to do anything more than just observe that. Sometimes it's hard to just
observe it.
Jay
Jay
When I walk in your fantasies
Do I look like reality?
When I talk like a bantam cock
Does your heart start beating
Rock! Rock! Rock! - Noah James
JayZ755
>>out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
>>
>>Matt J. McCullar
>>Arlington, TX
>
>Au contraire, Matt. For me, Zale was too 'normal' for the 4077. Other
>than when he was fighting with Klinger, he didn't have too many
>memorable scenes. Now Luther Rizzo. Man, what a character. Whenever he
>said, 'my bouncing baby boy, little Billie Bubba', or anything about
>pig's feet and hog's jowels, I died. 'A little heaven on the hoof'.
The early shows didn't need "wacky" characters like Rizzo. One-shot guest
stars or Nurse #2 had lines just as good as Hawkeye. That's a credit to the
writers.
By the time G W Bailey joined the cast, I guess they felt they needed to
establish this character with an "exotic" accent and "hilarious" character
traits, so it would be clear to all that the show was still a comedy. The
earlier characters tended to have human strengths and weaknesses to which
people could relate.
The Simpsons are a present day example of a once great show which has descended
into "wackiness."
Flying V
>The early shows didn't need "wacky" characters like Rizzo. One-shot guest
>stars or Nurse #2 had lines just as good as Hawkeye. That's a credit to the
>writers.
You mean like Klinger, Flagg or even Henry? You don't think these guys
were wacky?
>By the time G W Bailey joined the cast, I guess they felt they needed to
>establish this character with an "exotic" accent and "hilarious" character
>traits, so it would be clear to all that the show was still a comedy.
Yea, I'll buy that. Rizzo was rarely the straight man, except when he
was interacting with Charles. Example:
Rizzo (to Charles): Just how dumb do you think I am?
Charles: An adjective... fails me.
>The earlier characters tended to have human strengths and weaknesses to which
>people could relate.
Yea, I'll buy that too. But they were just as wacky as Rizzo ever was.
Klinger was more so.
>The Simpsons are a present day example of a once great show which has descended
>into "wackiness."
I've never watched the Simpsons, so I'll take your word for it :-)
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
>I think Hot Lips wanted to get ahead. I think she slept with people in
>authority. I don't think she said to herself "Hey - if I sleep with generals,
>it will advance my career." I don't think she usually was that sort of cold,
>calculating person. I think she was attracted to people in positions of power,
>or who respected the military system (Frank Burns.) If she was entirely
>calculating, she would have been sleeping with Henry Blake instead of Frank.
Hot Lips really loved Frank. She wasn't just sleeping with him.
Margaret loved Penobscott. She rarely slept with him. So one has to
wonder what was her motivation for sleeping with all those generals,
most were old enough to be her father. Attraction to power? Okay,
sure. But as you stated, if this was the case, she would have been
sleeping with guys like Henry. She didn't. So why generals? My
assumption is: Generals give promotions. Generals expedite career
advancement.
>On the other hand, I'm sure a rival (i.e. someone in competition for the same
>job) would interpret her actions much less favorably. Anyone with a "close"
>relationship with an authority figure always has to face those accusations.
>You can't expect everyone else to read between the lines for you.
I tend to think it naive to think that her actions were anything less
than selfish. I mean, whenever she wanted to get Henry in trouble,
what did she do? Run to one of her general lovers. Cashing in on her
sexual favors.
>I also preferred Hot Lips to Margaret. Hot Lips passion or horniness or
>whatnot made her vulnerable and real, similar to the way that Frank Burns was
>both less likable and more sympathetic that Winchester. Margaret seemed to
>spend most of her time being strident or giving speeches, and it's sometimes
>hard to do anything more than just observe that. Sometimes it's hard to just
>observe it.
I couldn't agree with you more.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
pleasure of this type of debate before, meaning, the analysis of the
characters from my favorite show. I wish I could refute something
you've said here. Anything. Just to keep this thing going. But I
can't. I tend to agree with all you've said.
However, I will say (and I think you should know this by now) that I'm
new here and I missed out on the 'slut discussion' and I wasn't trying
to start up a tired, hashed out discussion that I knew nothing about.
You probably know this already but, just in case, I felt it necessary
to plead my case. FWIW, I don't think Hot Lips was a slut. But I'll
leave that there.
And here's another thing I found equally interesting. Your reference
to 'your theory of M*A*S*H'. Is this what you mean when you say
everything we are observing/learning is from Hawkeye's point of view?
This is a very interesting idea and I would sure like for you to
elaborate on this further. What about all the other character's notes
to home. Whole shows were written from their perspective as well,
right? How does your theory fit for this? If you've posted your theory
here before and wish to avoid posting it again, please feel free to
send me an email. I'd love to read it.
Thanks Audrey...
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
htnews
George Hiebert wrote:
> Matt J. McCullar wrote:
> >
> > IMO, Sgt. Zale was much funnier than Sgt. Rizzo. Why was Zale written
> > out? Was the actor simply not available at the time?
> >
> > Matt J. McCullar
> > Arlington, TX
>
> I agree but I don't know the answer. Shortly after his mash stint I
> remember he was on a series starring a puppet named Madam. Anyone
> remember that show?
Flying V
Welcome Vanessa. Although you've been lurking here considerably longer
than I have, I still always like to welcome first-time posters to any
group of which I participate.
And a terrific post it was. Keep 'em coming! :-)
Your insights regarding male writers trying to write about women in
any situation, let alone a dramatic one, are right on. I mean, at the
risk of sounding flippant, after all these years of evolution, and
endless therapy, we still really don't have a clue what you women are
thinking. Okay, poor joke... move on Gene...
I think more women writers could only have had a positive effect on
Swit's character, and the show in general. I know of only one show,
off the top of my head, that was written solely by a woman and it was
the ep when Kelly Nakahara was upset about never being the object of
Hawkeye's flirtatious attention and Margaret was being inspected by
Colonel Bucholdtz (sp?) I pretty sure there were others, but none come
to mind at the moment.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Abigail
in <URL:news:19991128231717...@ng-bh1.aol.com>:
++
++ I think Hot Lips wanted to get ahead. I think she slept with people in
++ authority. I don't think she said to herself "Hey - if I sleep with generals
++ it will advance my career." I don't think she usually was that sort of cold,
++ calculating person. I think she was attracted to people in positions of powe
++ or who respected the military system (Frank Burns.) If she was entirely
++ calculating, she would have been sleeping with Henry Blake instead of Frank.
Hmmm. Is there any indication in the series that she and Frank actually
slept together?
Abigail
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
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Flying V
>How did the actor die, anyway?
Which actor?
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
>Hmmm. Is there any indication in the series that she and Frank actually
>slept together?
Hmmmm... Hold on, I'm thinking... An indication? I think so. Well, I
*like* to think so (maybe it's a guy thing, I don't know) I mean, how
much proof do you need? How much proof were they ever going to show
us? Maybe she could have been worried about being pregnant, as with
Donald, or something to that affect. I don't know.
What about Hawkeye? Or Trapper? Or Henry? Any indications there?
What about Radar? Uhhh, wait, bad example.
Good question Abigail... I'm still thinking...
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Audrey Meusel
Don't worry about being new, everyone is at one time. For the slut
discussion, go to Dejanews.com and do a search for it (I'm not entirely sure
how you do it - try slut and alt.tv.mash and something should come up).
It started out to be rather interesting about Margaret's character, or, I
should
say, Hot Lips' character, but descended into personal attacks, which got
boring
and ugly, like the newbie FAQ discussion is now.
In some ways, Hot Lips WAS a slut, and in other ways she wasn't. Just going
by her behavior, which was all over the map, you could argue either way.
One would have to examine her motivations with each guy she was with, as
well
as the changes in her character.
The stuff that really means something to me about her was the army vs.
medicine
stuff, which got short shrift. Yes, Vanessa, I agree with you about what
was behind
this lack of attention on a 70's tv series. They just weren't at that point
yet. (MASH
plus China Beach, among others, led to ER). I'm not saying it had to be the
way I
wished, but I'm saying that I wish it could have been, because it would have
been
more interesting than what they did with her character in the late seasons.
They missed
opportunities because they weren't seeing possibilities, or the person
behind the character
and as you say, probably couldn't at the time.
These kind of character analysis discussions are the fun part of belonging
to the newsgroup,
along with the insider information from Dr. Larry and Mr. Quixote! (Doesn't
happen enough here,
unlike alt.tv.xfiles.analysis, where it's the norm).
Re: MASH being from Hawk's pov - I don't mean so much literally as I mean
the show's worldview
is more attuned to his than anyone elses, AND it's his story - what happens
to a civilian doctor,
drafted into a questionable war and sent to do weapons repair, futile and
heartbreaking work,
and how he changes and is changed by the people he meets there - chiefly BJ,
Charles,
Potter and Margaret. Frank and Henry (and in some ways, Trapper) didn't
change him so much
as react to him, but the other four did, each in their own way, along with
the experience itself.
The disrespectful attitude in the show towards authority, the military, the
war, US politics, etc.,
as well as the seriousness and dedication towards medicine, shown in the OR
scenes, all stem
from Hawkeye. I liked the letters home from the different characters, and
wish they'd done a
Dear Mom or Sis, or whatever for Hot Lips (though she was the antagonist in
the beginning,
they could have later, when she was "one of the gang", though one earlier,
as Hot Lips, would
have been more interesting). I liked the Point of View ep, from a soldier's
point of view. But
still, look how it ended, with Hawkeye. One of the things that made the
show so good, actually,
because it did have built-in limitations that they worked with to show the
human condition.
Flying V <gen...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:384410f8...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Audrey Meusel
Yes, very true, as I said in my earlier post.
I just read an article about Lily Tomlin's contributions to "Laugh In", and
how she was
given a lot more latitude to develop her characters than anyone else because
of her
brilliance, so there's another early example.
There IS sexism and there STILL is lack of imagination out there vis a vis
women's
lives and substantive plots about them. They did pretty well with Margaret
in
spite of that, and when I look at the shows from seasons 1-6, I think they
did
really well in showing the person behind the caricature - or Loretta did,
because
TPTB had her as the antagonist who was the butt of all the jokes. Loretta
showed
us how that made the person feel. Wonderful. You do have to look for it,
but it's
there. ("Sticky Wicket", for example) I wish Mary Kay Place and Linda
Bloodworth
could have written more episodes, because "Hot Lips and Empty Arms" was
terrific
(and what a terrific title, too!).
And, to answer an earlier question about how women find Hawkeye, I find him
a jerk, but compelling nonetheless. I'd enjoy knowing him as a friend, but
I wouldn't
really trust him, not like BJ, or even Charles! On the other hand, I'm a
dyed-in-the-
wool Pierce & Houlihan shipper - those two deserve each other. Though,
Frank &
Hot Lips were a LOT funnier! :))))
<me...@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:1999Nov2...@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu...
> > Actually, I love all the characters, but Margaret had the most inner
> > conflict, being both medical and military to the core, two values which
were
> > almost mutually exclusive. I wonder if she secretly wanted to be a
doctor,
> > but her dad wouldn't support her, so she joined the army (the family
> > business) to get some medical training and at least became a nurse. But
> > they didn't go there, they stuck to her relationships with men, which
got
> > boring. And they only made fun of her desire for command, but that
might
> > have been a rich area to explore, as well (note the difference between
> > "Carry On, Hawkeye", where he didn't care that she took over command
when
> > Henry was sick, because he couldn't be bothered, and "Commander Pierce",
> > where she was really the ranking Major in age and seniority, even over
> > Charles, but never got to be second in command once Frank left, and
wasn't
> > even considered as acting commander when Potter had to leave).
>
Audrey Meusel
Remember, it all had to get
by the censors, in the 70's yet, but it was there. Most notable example, in
Margaret's engagement,
when he comes to visit her in her tent and she says "Sex is out, Frank, I
belong to Donald now",
which implies that at one point, sex was NOT out. Too late at night to go
through and cite
chapter and verse, but it's there. Anyone else care to chime in with
examples?
Abigail <abi...@delanet.com> wrote in message
news:slrn8447al....@alexandra.delanet.com...
> JayZ755 (jay...@aol.comspamaway) wrote on MMCCLXXXI September MCMXCIII
> in <URL:news:19991128231717...@ng-bh1.aol.com>:
> ++
> ++ I think Hot Lips wanted to get ahead. I think she slept with people in
> ++ authority. I don't think she said to herself "Hey - if I sleep with
generals
> ++ it will advance my career." I don't think she usually was that sort of
cold,
> ++ calculating person. I think she was attracted to people in positions
of powe
> ++ or who respected the military system (Frank Burns.) If she was
entirely
> ++ calculating, she would have been sleeping with Henry Blake instead of
Frank.
>
>
> Hmmm. Is there any indication in the series that she and Frank actually
> slept together?
>
>
>
me...@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu
> First, let me say I think your post was excellent and I enjoyed
> reading it very much.
>
> Second, I think Loretta Swit is an extremely talented and creative
> actor, and, maybe I shouldn't say this, but what the hell, a beautiful
> woman as well.
>
> As for your post, the most interesting part, for me, was when you
> mentioned that Margaret had the most inner conflict. I agree, for your
> points are valid, as they relate to Margaret. But I see inner conflict
> for yet another reason and it's this: She had the most inner conflict
> because, in essence, she was two entirely different and distinct
> characters - first 'Hot Lips' and then later, Margaret.
>
> Swit portrayed brilliantly, performing her finest work) didn't deserve
> Hawkeye's, or anyone else's, respect. Major or not. Head nurse or not.
> Surely she got to the position she was in partly, if not fully, due to
> her promiscuity. I mean, she slept with (it was strongly implied)
> every general she ever worked under (no pun intended). You see this
> was at the point of playing Margaret. There was the one ep where she
> had a general come to the 4077 to observe her and her nursing staff
> performing triage. Afterwards, in her tent, the general tells her he's
> so proud of her (yea right) and that he has an opening for her in
> Tokyo. He tells her, 'It will be just like old times, with late night
> dinners...', and evenings engaged in some sexually explicit game they
> used to play (I don't remember the exact line, something about the
> prisoner and the warden's wife, I think). And then he eventually tells
> her, 'The promotion is real. I'll make you a colonel'. Of course, now
> she's in full 'Margaret' character and flatly refuses. She's highly
> offended and starts in with her protests and 'respect me for who I am,
> I've earned it' repertoire. And yes, 'Margaret' did deserve respect
> and, also due to the simple waving of a writer's pen, she 'earned' it.
>
> So, to me the 'inner conflict' also stems from the fact that she was
> two completely different (differently written) characters. And all I'm
> saying is, I preferred the former as opposed to the latter. Swit was
> at her most creative peak, playing 'Hot Lips'. In fact, I dislike
> 'Margaret' Houlihan so much, I often fast forward thru her scenes. I
> detest her yelling and screaming all the time and her less than
> brilliant, or even interesting, storylines. Respect her, yes. Like
> her, no.
>
> I guess I'm just a die-hard Hot Lips fan.
(excuses to all for keeping the entire post above -- I know it's a lot to
scroll through but for deep philosophical discussions sometimes it seems
necessary)
Wow, Gene, I guess this is an example of how different strokes can be for
different folks.
I didn't see these aspects of Margaret/Hot Lips as different at all, nor do I
view them as separate characters. To me it made the show 10 times richer and
more interesting when they fleshed out characters and gave folks other than
Hawkeye more prominence in story lines. The characters of everyone in the
series were more, you know, caricatures for several years. Excellently done
caricatures, to be sure. But not particularly deep.
I always figured that Margaret was a party girl when she was younger -- she
was never portrayed as cold, after all -- but that didn't seem incompatible
with her having actual integrity about her work and wanting to rise only on
her merits. I never, ever got the idea that she slept her way to the um,
middle. From the movie forward she's always been known as "a damn good nurse."
After Frank and Hot Lips went over Henry's head/made excuses to Hawkeye about
their canoodling/plotted to make things more military for the umpteenth time,
it started getting mighty old as far as I was concerned. If the Powers That Be
hadn't realized that it was Margaret "Hot Lips" Houlihan instead of just Hot
Lips, I probably would have stopped watching the show. Of course they were
expanding the stories of just about everyone, thank heaven. There's nothing I
hate more than Johnny or Janie One-Note characters. They leadeth me to commune
with my remote's Mute button, or to change the channel.
There are a million stories in the Naked City, and this is mine -- as always,
your mileage may vary.
...Upon reflection, I realize that I hadn't quite thought of the end-game
Margaret as a man-hungry beauty queen either, though I did think of her as not
being the happiest camper then (divorced with only the Army for comfort will
do that to you). I'll watch the later episodes with an eye to that.
Vanessa
Genna Reeney
| slept together?
Yes.
I bet you want cites.... I'll get back to you, but some of the other posts
already give a starting point.
--
Cheers,
Genna
Genna Reeney
|
| My maiden post, after lurking for several months... hello fellow M*A*S*H
fans!
| It's swell to see such a healthy newsgroup for this series.
Vanessa. Nice to finally meet you. Was it the food or the smell coming from
the latrines that kept you hidden?
| <<snip>> 2) The writers weren't used to thinking
| about women in those dramatic terms, because writers on *most* TV series
| weren't used to thinking about women in those dramatic terms. Heck, that
kind
| of writing for women is pretty darn recent. Some of that comes from
having
| more women around as writers, some comes from having more women in
production,
| and some of it comes from everyone, men and women, being used to thinking
about
| women in other than relationship/helper roles.
As an aside: This has been an interesting thread. I'm sorry that I have not
had time to participate in it.
My impression is that Margaret went fairly quickly from the one-dimensional
character of the movie into a complex character within the first couple of
years. I don't know if Loretta Swit asked for more presence, but she
demanded it in her acting. What a treat it must have been to write for her.
BTW, a while back we discussed the episodes written by Linda Bloodworth and
Mary Kay Place. Among other reasons, it was thought that they would bring
in a different perspective.
--
Genna
Elf
The fact that Hot Lips recognised Frank just by looking at his butt (The Pilot)
pretty much gives it away for me......
-Elf-
--
Mail: e...@mo.himolde.no URL: http://www.mo.himolde.no/~elf/ IRC: Elf/Alv
"Out of my mind. Back in five minutes."
Nancy T.
> I think more women writers could only have had a positive effect on
> Swit's character, and the show in general. I know of only one show,
> off the top of my head, that was written solely by a woman and it was
> the ep when Kelly Nakahara was upset about never being the object of
> Hawkeye's flirtatious attention and Margaret was being inspected by
> Colonel Bucholdtz (sp?) I pretty sure there were others, but none come
> to mind at the moment.
>
> --
> Gene Vanderhoof
> gen...@netscape.net
>
Actually, that ep (Look Me Over) was written by Alan Alda as a surprise for
Kellye. There were only 3 female writers: Linda Bloodworth, Mary Kay Place
and Karen Hall.
Linda Bloodworth: Nurses, Soldier of the Month
Linda Bloodworth & Mary Kay Place: Mad Dogs & Servicemen, Springtime, Hot
Lips & Empty Arms
Karen Hall: Friends & Enemies, That Darn Kid, Picture This, The Birthday
Girls, Communication Breakdown, Fathers Day
Look Me Over was directed by a woman though: Susan Oliver.
--
--Nancy
Nancy T.
202. Tell it to the Marines (Z-410)
January 12, 1981
Written by Hank Bradford
Directed by Harry Morgan
Guest Stars: Stan Wells, Michael McGuirre, Denny Miller, James Gallery
Winchester takes command during Potter's absence; and B.J. and Hawkeye
try to convince the Marines to grant a hardship discharge to an immigrant
soldier.
--
--Nancy
Abigail
<URL:news:384617f0...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>:
++
++ I think more women writers could only have had a positive effect on
++ Swit's character, and the show in general. I know of only one show,
++ off the top of my head, that was written solely by a woman and it was
++ the ep when Kelly Nakahara was upset about never being the object of
++ Hawkeye's flirtatious attention and Margaret was being inspected by
++ Colonel Bucholdtz (sp?) I pretty sure there were others, but none come
++ to mind at the moment.
I never knew Alan Alda was female.
Abigail
--
236. Hey, Look Me Over (1-G21)
October 25, 1982
Written by Alan Alda
Directed by Susan Oliver
Guest Stars: Keelye Nakahara, Peggy Feury, Perry Lang, Deborah Harmon
Hawkeye watched Nurse Kellye brighten a wounded GI's final moments and
comes to appreciate the nurses' vital contribution to the healing process.
Audrey Meusel
female writer, whose name is buried deep in some book or FAQ, and which
I can't pull out of the deep recesses of my memory at the moment. But
it was one of the few (three or four?) episodes directed by a woman.
George Hiebert
> I've never watched the Simpsons, so I'll take your word for it :-)
Dude, you've never watched the Simpsons? Seriously?
You're missing some funniness!
George Hiebert
Margaret: "Try writing me a nice poem."
Frank: "It's not the same."
If that don't spell out sex I don't know what does. And there's plenty
more.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Hot Lips really loved Frank. She wasn't just sleeping with him.
: Margaret loved Penobscott. She rarely slept with him. So one has to
: wonder what was her motivation for sleeping with all those generals,
: most were old enough to be her father. Attraction to power? Okay,
: sleeping with guys like Henry. She didn't. So why generals? My
: assumption is: Generals give promotions. Generals expedite career
: advancement.
What this argument misses is that Henry was not someone Hot Lips could
>respect<. With her father as a role model and the values a military
lifestyle instills, Henry Blake - an indecisive civilian - was the
personification of everything she'd despise in a normal soldier, let alone
a commanding officer. Whereas Frank and Donald and her history of generals
were all men (if, in Frank's case, only superficially and only in contrast
with Henry, Hawkeye, Trapper John, etc.) who embodied the ideals she
believed in.
: I tend to think it naive to think that her actions were anything less
: than selfish. I mean, whenever she wanted to get Henry in trouble,
: what did she do? Run to one of her general lovers. Cashing in on her
: sexual favors.
Again, remember that she grew up in the military atmosphere. The sex to
her was not a means to an end, it was a holistic part of the social aspect
of her profession, her niche in the old-boy network. And one which she
enjoyed (not to bring up the old sexual double standard argument again)!
If Hot Lips' career in the army medical corps had been motivated solely by
selfishness, she could not have been the good nurse she was.
--
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman
"Nobody likes a math geek, Scully."
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/milleniu.htm
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Hmmm. Is there any indication in the series that she and Frank actually
: slept together?
The evidence is inexplicit enough that when I was fourteen I doubted it.
--
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman: The Daily Cartoons
Paul Gadzikowski - DOCTOR WHO, STAR TREK, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER,
M*A*S*H - King Arthur - Archy the Cockroach
scar...@iglou.com NEW 11/26: CASTING BREAD Chapter 1 WHO/TOS
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Abigail <abi...@delanet.com> wrote:
: > Hmmm. Is there any indication in the series that she and Frank actually
: > slept together?
: Yes, actually, several. It's in the dialogue and in what's NOT said.
: Remember, it all had to get
: by the censors, in the 70's yet, but it was there. Most notable example, in
: Margaret's engagement,
: when he comes to visit her in her tent and she says "Sex is out, Frank, I
: belong to Donald now",
And Frank's exhortation at the end of the same scene, "Now we can cheat
together!"
JayZ755
>Charles,
>Potter and Margaret. Frank and Henry (and in some ways, Trapper) didn't
>change him so much
>as react to him
Henry and Trapper certainly could have had a lot of influence on Hawkeye. We
just didn't see that part. The pilot begins with the primary characters in
established relationships. Since Henry and Trapper left before Hawkeye, it
seems likely that they arrived before he did. We saw what B J Hunnicut was
like when he arrived, but we don't know what Hawkeye Pierce was like.
Trapper's presence may well have encouraged Hawkeye's more lustful pursuit of
wine/women/song during that part of his tour.
Flying V
wrote:
>Dude, you've never watched the Simpsons? Seriously?
>You're missing some funniness!
Well, I can't say I've never watched it, because I have seen bits and
pieces, usually when I was at someone else's house and they had it on
at the time. But I've never watched an entire show, start to finish.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
>I never knew Alan Alda was female.
Oops. My mistake. I must have been thinking about the director. I knew
I would stumble sooner or later, I only hoped it would be later.
Thanks for the correction.
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Flying V
wrote:
>Actually, that ep (Look Me Over) was written by Alan Alda as a surprise for
>Kellye.
>Look Me Over was directed by a woman though: Susan Oliver.
Thanks Nancy. My mistake. I knew a woman was directly involved with
that ep. But my memory isn't as sharp as I would like :-)
--
Gene Vanderhoof
gen...@netscape.net
Brad
GADZIKOWSKI) wrote:
> And Frank's exhortation at the end of the same scene, "Now we can
> cheat
> together!"
What about in 'Bulliten Board' when Frank asks Margaret whether they
could be in the sack race together and Margaret says 'you can just
forget about us being in the sack race for awhile!'.
There's also a reference in 'Fade In/Fade Out' where Mulcahy (which was
a silly line anyway) says he had his suspicions about Frank and
Margaret and Hawkeye says 'They knew each other in the biblical sense
-- both Testaments'.
Then there was 'Kim' where Frank comes into Margaret's tent saying it's
Thursday night -- the night they have one of their "discussions", and
Margaret says they just did yesterday or whenever, and Frank says 'I'm
not counting "short talks"'.
I think there's more evidence supporting Frank and Margaret's relations
than there is supporting Trapper cheating on his wife.
Brad
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Brad
jay...@aol.comspamaway (JayZ755) wrote:
> Trapper's presence may well have encouraged Hawkeye's more lustful
> pursuit of
> wine/women/song during that part of his tour.
It could also have gone the other way. Perhaps it was Hawkeye's
influence. BJ, in my opinion started off very 'clean', but soon started
on the practical jokes, the disrespect for authority and even had an
affair with a vulnerable nurse. Had he been assigned to the 8063
instead of the 4077 things may have been different.
Mikael Uhlin
>Perhaps it was Hawkeye's influence. BJ, in my opinion started off
>very 'clean', but soon started on the practical jokes, the disrespect
>for authority and even had an affair with a vulnerable nurse. Had he
>been assigned to the 8063 instead of the 4077 things may have been
>different.
I wonder what Roy Dupree over at the 8063rd would have turned him into? A
real J.B., J.J. or B.B.?
MncaWnbe
and Hot Lips on the phone. Frank complaining about being a disembodied voice
when "lately we've been so embodied!"
Jami
AmyBippy
>: than selfish. I mean, whenever she wanted to get Henry in trouble,
>: what did she do? Run to one of her general lovers. Cashing in on her
>: sexual favors.
>
>Again, remember that she grew up in the military atmosphere. The sex to
>her was not a means to an end, it was a holistic part of the social aspect
>of her profession, her niche in the old-boy network. And one which she
>enjoyed (not to bring up the old sexual double standard argument again)!
>
>If Hot Lips' career in the army medical corps had been motivated solely by
>selfishness, she could not have been the good nurse she was.
If I could jump in here, I have always held to the belief that Margaret was
attracted by men who wielded power easily. The reason she could never really
admit that she found Hawkeye attractive was that he didn't like being an
officer a whole lot, and Margaret needed that. Frank may not have been her
perfect man, but he was there and he had the potential to be powerful,
unfortunately. I think that Margaret grew up with the example of her father,
and looked to men who held those same attributes and had the same beliefs. But
even Frank couldn't compete with a general, and was often left on his own
whenever Margaret had the chance to dally with one. It was all about power. I
don't think Margaret wanted to advance her career, she was always very
confident about her abilities. I think it was all about attraction.
Power was what turned her on.
JMHO,
Amy
MncaWnbe
>attracted by men who wielded power easily.
I've been watching M*A*S*H since I was 11; I'm now 32 and my opinions on what
motivated Margaret have changed a lot. My current interpretation of her
relationships to men is not that she was attracted by a certain type of man --
she was pretty much attracted to whomever was attracted to her. Her outward
toughness hid a host of insecurities, which occasionally become more
distinguishable in episodes such as "Hot Lips and Empty Arms" and "The Nurses."
(I think that was the title, the "You never even offered me a lousy cup of
coffee" episode.) Rather than going after men to whom she was attracted, she
settled for the men who pursued her ... because deep down, she never felt she
was "good enough" ... probably a result of Daddy popping in and out of her
life, moving the family around so that just when she had made a friend, she had
to give them up and start all over again.
Jami
Abigail
<URL:news:19991201132259...@ng-cg1.aol.com>:
++
++ I've been watching M*A*S*H since I was 11; I'm now 32 and my opinions on what
++ motivated Margaret have changed a lot. My current interpretation of her
++ relationships to men is not that she was attracted by a certain type of man -
++ she was pretty much attracted to whomever was attracted to her. Her outward
++ toughness hid a host of insecurities, which occasionally become more
++ distinguishable in episodes such as "Hot Lips and Empty Arms" and "The Nurses
++ (I think that was the title, the "You never even offered me a lousy cup of
++ coffee" episode.) Rather than going after men to whom she was attracted, she
++ settled for the men who pursued her ... because deep down, she never felt she
++ was "good enough" ... probably a result of Daddy popping in and out of her
++ life, moving the family around so that just when she had made a friend, she h
++ to give them up and start all over again.
She went after 'Iron Guts Kelly', and the Swedish officer in 'U.N, the
Night and the Music', without them persuing her.
Abigail
Audrey Meusel
right about the Swedish diplomat. Iron Guts would have knocked on
her door later that night if she didn't throw herself at him first.
And she really put in an effort with the Swedish guy, which confirms
Jami's theory, in my opinion, that as she matured and got more self
confident, her choices became better. She tossed out old Lyle Weiskopf
because he was going to keep her in her place (flat on her back in his
bed), and then, felt sure enough to go for the guy she wanted, even if
he couldn't perform sexually. BTW, Jami, nice post!
Audrey
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Trapper's presence may well have encouraged Hawkeye's more lustful pursuit of
: wine/women/song during that part of his tour.
I have to disagree with that, if only on the basis of anecdotal
evidence: Hawkeye's stories and one-liners about his past indicate he was
always a practicing hedonist.
Abigail
MCMXCIII in <URL:news:38458A78...@Yale.edu>:
++ As I recall, it was pretty mutual with old "Iron Guts", but you're
Well, I wouldn't call her entrance into the officers club with her
tight sweater, suddenly forgetting all about Frank, while Gen. Kelly
was until then totally unaware of her "mutual".
Even before she had seen him, she decided to go after him.
++ right about the Swedish diplomat. Iron Guts would have knocked on
++ her door later that night if she didn't throw herself at him first.
I don't think the episode has any evidence for that.
Audrey Meusel
to review my CH tape of the ep after work before I try to refute that
statement. You have a point, but I'm not (quite) ready to concede.
Audrey Meusel
directly in the ng, have been buried in schoolwork (graduate courses)
and haven't really had a chance. Don't now, either, but wanted to
acknowledge you at least.
I agree with what you said, both about character and actress and
attitudes of tv writers in the 70's. I'm only expressing regret at
their limits, because they did miss the boat with her on numerous
occasions. The man-hungry beauty queen stuff was about her last 3
years, and what did they focus on? Her hairdos (that episode where she
got the permanent and subsequent laryngitis) was an all-time low. When
they did "Nurse Doctor", I had hopes that they'd develop the medical
side of her character more, but I guess they thought they'd done it all
already! I did like the eps where she bonded with old female friends
(one from the army and one from nursing school), which didn't happen
with her in the first 5 years, up until "The Nurses", which WAS a
pivotal episode for her. I guess I'm more frustrated that they missed
the boat with her so many times, because they did some really fine eps
about her and didn't follow up. They were capable, just not so
motivated, I guess.
Gotta get back to work!
Audrey
me...@ssrl.slac.stanford.edu wrote:
>
> In article <81sfg1$c9$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, "Audrey Meusel"
> <audreyl...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> > My feathers aren't ruffled about Margaret, because I agree with most of what
> > you said. She IS my favorite character, but not for the Penobsnot debacle,
> > for sure! Though, I agree with Mikhael Uhlin that the marriage got rid of
> > Frank and changed her in a good way until season 8, and then the beauty queen
> > stuff. Ick. But also, that when Frank left, she became one of the gang WAS
> > a natural progression for the character (yes, the movie).
>
> > Aside from the actor wanting character growth, which was a legitimate
> > concern, they could have gone in many directions with the character, and
> > Loretta Swit had the talent to pull it off when the writing was good
> > (witness the Hot Lips years). But they didn't always do justice to her or
> > Margaret, because they didn't always know what to do with her (one writer as
> > much as admitted that in the "Making MASH" documentary). My favorite years
> > were 2-6/7. Before that she was too one-dimensional and after that, they
> > reduced her to a man-hungry beauty queen, which was too bad, because there
> > was a lot of interesting stuff they could have done. I think her last really
> > good episode was "Nurse Doctor". Maybe it was more problematic for you when
> > she started to GET respect from Hawkeye (someone with her background in her
> > position WOULD demand it, and be justified). But MASH was about Hawkeye
> > and his point of view. Given that, I thought it was remarkable that one
> > could have any sympathy for her pov at all, but if you look, it's there, in
> > our brilliant writers and acting performances of the first 5 years!
>
> > Actually, I love all the characters, but Margaret had the most inner
> > conflict, being both medical and military to the core, two values which were
> > almost mutually exclusive. I wonder if she secretly wanted to be a doctor,
> > but her dad wouldn't support her, so she joined the army (the family
> > business) to get some medical training and at least became a nurse. But
> > they didn't go there, they stuck to her relationships with men, which got
> > boring. And they only made fun of her desire for command, but that might
> > have been a rich area to explore, as well (note the difference between
> > "Carry On, Hawkeye", where he didn't care that she took over command when
> > Henry was sick, because he couldn't be bothered, and "Commander Pierce",
> > where she was really the ranking Major in age and seniority, even over
> > Charles, but never got to be second in command once Frank left, and wasn't
> > even considered as acting commander when Potter had to leave).
>
> My maiden post, after lurking for several months... hello fellow M*A*S*H fans!
> It's swell to see such a healthy newsgroup for this series.
>
> Audrey, I pretty much agree with everything you said above. One suspects it
> happened that way for Loretta Swit and the Margaret character for a couple of
> reasons: 1) It's not far off the way Margaret Houlihan probably would have been
> thought of in the Army of the time, and 2) The writers weren't used to thinking
> about women in those dramatic terms, because writers on *most* TV series
> weren't used to thinking about women in those dramatic terms. Heck, that kind
> of writing for women is pretty darn recent. Some of that comes from having
> more women around as writers, some comes from having more women in production,
> and some of it comes from everyone, men and women, being used to thinking about
> women in other than relationship/helper roles.
>
> Many female cast members on Saturday Night Live, another long-running TV show,
> have described how tough it is to get their sketch ideas on the air, not just
> because of the competitive atmosphere but because the writers don't connect
> with humor concepts for the women. (My instant insight: except for Gilda
> Radner, who came up with two or three repeating gag lines, something that for
> better or worse has always been an SNL staple.) But I digress -- SNL is just a
> corroborating example.
>
> Yeah, M*A*S*H was about Hawkeye and his fellow sufferers in the ROK, and it was
> made when it was made, so I try not to beat up on it too much. Margaret is
> still a multi-layered character who got to show a lot of her stuff, even if
> the writers missed some good bets with her.
>
> Without M*A*S*H there probably wouldn't be an "e.r.", too, where women *do* get
> written into dramatic ideas involving work as well as relationships.
>
> Vanessa
Audrey Meusel
mind you reading it, as it's germane.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Audrey Meusel (Audrey...@Yale.edu) wrote on MMCCLXXXIII September
: MCMXCIII in <URL:news:38458A78...@Yale.edu>:
: ++ her door later that night if she didn't throw herself at him first.
: I don't think the episode has any evidence for that.
"Lucky gun."
