When did MASH jump the shark
Leon Lussier
watching Happy Days and Fonzie jumped a shark on waterskies. It marked
the end of Happy Days as a great show.
I loved MASH very very much,but it did go stale after a while. This
happens to all shows. There are very few shows that got better as they
went along. I don't know if it was one episode that marked the decline
of MASH. Instead, there were markers that the show was in trouble.
These were some of the problems with the later shows;
1. The loss of Frank Burns. I am a Frank fanatic. When he left, the
show lost it's comic foe for Hawkeye. Charles was never has lovable, or
goofy, to watch. In time, they made Charles into a good guy. It just
never worked as well.
2. B.J's mustache. I hated that mustache and his long hair. When they
allowed Mike Farrell to look anyway he wanted to, they abandoned the
idea that it was the 1950's in Korea. B.J looked like he belonged in
Haight Ashbury in The Summer of Love, and not in the Korean War.
3. Klinger became company clerk. When Klinger stopped wearing dresses
and became company clerk, he became just Radar's replacement. He lost
his comic timing too.
4. Without a doubt, the biggest problem was allowing Alan Alda to
become a "creative consultant" on the show. I don't have a problem with
Alda's long held feminist beliefs, but they had no place in a show set
in the 1950's. Remember, Lucy Ricardo couldn't even say the word,
"pregnant", back then. It was bizarre that Hawkeye, a Groucho Marx
wannabe, would start sounding like Betty Friedan. It just wouldn't
happen. Those are some of my ideas. Do you agree? Disagree? Let me
know people.
JayZ755
>watching Happy Days and Fonzie jumped a shark on waterskies. It marked
>the end of Happy Days as a great show.
> I loved MASH very very much,but it did go stale after a while. This
>happens to all shows. There are very few shows that got better as they
>went along. I don't know if it was one episode that marked the decline
>of MASH. Instead, there were markers that the show was in trouble.
> These were some of the problems with the later shows;
> 1. The loss of Frank Burns. I am a Frank fanatic. When he left, the
>show lost it's comic foe for Hawkeye. Charles was never has lovable, or
>goofy, to watch. In time, they made Charles into a good guy. It just
>never worked as well.
Frank Burns was a fascinating character for me as well. Deep down Frank wanted
to be liked, but was completely lacking in the social skills to do so. Frank
never would have transformed completely like several of the other characters
did. In the end Frank's lack of development is probably more common and
realistic then become completely transformed.
Winchester was placed on an even level with the others. His character remained
aloof by choice, which made him a more mature but less symathetic character
than Frank Burns. One of the better characters, actually, during the show's
decline - his cynicism would have been sorely missed at the time.
> 2. B.J's mustache. I hated that mustache and his long hair. When they
>allowed Mike Farrell to look anyway he wanted to, they abandoned the
>idea that it was the 1950's in Korea. B.J looked like he belonged in
>Haight Ashbury in The Summer of Love, and not in the Korean War.
He wasn't the only one.
> 3. Klinger became company clerk. When Klinger stopped wearing dresses
>and became company clerk, he became just Radar's replacement. He lost
>his comic timing too.
The show transformed a lot from pilot to Radar's departure, but I can pretty
much place all of those eps on the same level. When Radar left, the real
decline began.
Also, what happened to Harry Morgan? He had a nice subtle presence in his
first few years, then started overacting badly. What happened?
> 4. Without a doubt, the biggest problem was allowing Alan Alda to
>become a "creative consultant" on the show. I don't have a problem with
>Alda's long held feminist beliefs, but they had no place in a show set
>in the 1950's. Remember, Lucy Ricardo couldn't even say the word,
>"pregnant", back then. It was bizarre that Hawkeye, a Groucho Marx
>wannabe, would start sounding like Betty Friedan. It just wouldn't
>happen.
I suspect that had Henry Blake made it back home to his family, he wouldn't
have slept with other women all of the time. War will do that to people. At
some point the show lost the ability to let its characters be jerks once in a
while and NOT comment on the situation. It lost some of its reality in the
process.
Jay
Steve Skyler
this grouchy kind of guy who took his frustrations out on other people,
Margaret and Charles became good guys so there was no foil, and Klinger
as a clerk just didn't work as well. Then you had BJ whining about his
duahgter all the time. It became a different show.
George Hiebert
>
> Yes, I think the real decline was when Radar left. Potter turned into
> this grouchy kind of guy who took his frustrations out on other people,
> Margaret and Charles became good guys so there was no foil, and Klinger
> as a clerk just didn't work as well. Then you had BJ whining about his
> duahgter all the time. It became a different show.
And besides all that, the writing in the early era was FAR better.
SptmbrWind
>happens to all shows. There are very few shows that got better as they
>went along.
To each his own. I prefer the later episodes, myself.
> 1. The loss of Frank Burns. I am a Frank fanatic. When he left, the
>show lost it's comic foe for Hawkeye. Charles was never has lovable, or
>goofy, to watch. In time, they made Charles into a good guy. It just
>never worked as well.
I don't think Frank could have made it to the end of the war. There wasn't
much more they could do with the character, after Margaret got married. True,
he was good as a 'bad guy', but, still...
> 2. B.J's mustache. I hated that mustache and his long hair. When they
>allowed Mike Farrell to look anyway he wanted to, they abandoned the
>idea that it was the 1950's in Korea.
I kinda like the mustache... I dunno, I keep thinking Mike Farrell looks weird
without it, although, if he ever decided to regrow it, I'd cry. As for the long
hair, it did look kind of goofy.
> 3. Klinger became company clerk. When Klinger stopped wearing dresses
>and became company clerk, he became just Radar's replacement. He lost
>his comic timing too.
Klinger was never Radar's replacement. He was just an upgraded version of
Klinger.
> 4. Without a doubt, the biggest problem was allowing Alan Alda to
>become a "creative consultant" on the show. I don't have a problem with
>Alda's long held feminist beliefs, but they had no place in a show set
>in the 1950's. It was bizarre that Hawkeye, a Groucho Marx
>wannabe, would start sounding like Betty Friedan. It just wouldn't
>happen.
Without Alan Alda, the show would probably have continued as a comedy
throughtout its run. Meaning, eventually, the writers would run out of jokes,
and the show would never have lasted so many years. Also, in my opinion, it
would have really sucked. Not that I have anything against the humorous side,
but the laughs had to stop sometime during the war.
Elf
|
| And besides all that, the writing in the early era was FAR better.
|
If not better, it was at least funnier. The timing was also better.
-Elf-
--
Mail: e...@mo.himolde.no URL: http://www.mo.himolde.no/~elf/ IRC: Elf/Alv
"Now I know why they shoot people at sunrise. Who wants to live at six
o'clock in the morning?"
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
burns me is that I believe it could have been avoided. Every loss of a
castmember up till then had inspired a new character, and that is what had
always kept the show fresh. If they'd done it in year eight when Burghoff
left it might have worked then too. We'll never know now.
--
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
http://members.iglou.com.scarfman
"Every morning is a new box of crayons."
Steve Girotti
somebody new, transferring them to Korea (like with BJ) just to be a company
clerk. a position not exactly on the same level as say a doctor or nurse...
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI <scar...@iglou.com> wrote in message
news:37cb...@news.iglou.com...
Danielle
more "real" so to speak, as a husband and father away from the war. But
able to have fun to forget at the same time. Frank was never able to live
up to Trapper and Hawkeye, it was always about what they could do to him.
Where in the later episodes, it was what Charles would do in retaliation
that made it even more funny. Just an opinion, I know, but those were the
ones I liked.
Danielle :-)
Steve Skyler
Every time they did that, it changed the entire dynamic and may have
given the show a good shot in the arm it so badly needed. Also, how
does the timing get worse as the series progressed? That was amazing to
me. Maybe because they were doing more serious stuff as opposed to
comedy and it made the transitions seem awkward? I really don't know,
but the acting/timing seemed to diminish in season 8 and it seemed more
apparant they were acting and the dialog appeared more forced. Maybe it
was just a case of inferior writing? And "jumping the shark" is a
fantastic analogy by the way :-).
Steve Skyler
because even though Hawkeye could be wrong, as long as Frank was around,
you knew Hawkeye was the good guy. I think that's what Alda wanted
though which is a problem when you let the clowns start running the
circus. There's not enough objectivity and they are too close to it,
whereas if Larry Gelbart had still been around it may have been
differnet. But Hawkeye lost a lot of jokes when Frank left and the
level of comedy dropped.
Danielle
Nickie
Hawk were a great team, but eventually the whole them vs
frank thing got old. As for BJs look I think that it was war
time and its not a really sivalised place so you can look
the way you want and no one would care. Remember that Hawk
maybe shaved twice during the run of the show and they were
always cracking jokes about how Radar never took a bath.
Maybe the long hair was just easier. As for Radar dont get
me wrong, he was one of my favorite caracters, but I dont
think It was the begining of the end when he left. I think
some of the later episodes were the best. Charles had a
human side that frank never did. Margret and Charles teaming
up with BJ and Hawk were in my opinion the best episodes. It
showed that M*A*S*H could be a team. I think Klinger made a
good company clerk and they really didn't need to replace
radar because no one could really live up to that. As for
people getting whiny, they were tired of being there. Potter
was getting closer to retirment and Erin Hunnicut was really
starting to hit miles stones that BJ couldn't be there for.
I think that one of the best parts of M*A*S*H was their
ablitly to be serious and funny. You cant make a war show
without showing how horrible the war actually is. I just saw
Goodbye, Farwell, Amen and I think it is one of the best
episodes of the series.
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PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: I don't think Frank could have made it to the end of the war. There wasn't
: much more they could do with the character, after Margaret got married. True,
: he was good as a 'bad guy', but, still...
I think you've got that backwards. I always believed that they married
Margaret because Linville was leaving the show, not the other way around.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: PAUL GADZIKOWSKI <scar...@iglou.com> wrote in message
: news:37cb...@news.iglou.com...
: > I'll agree that M*A*S*H "jumped the shark" with Radar's departure. What
: > burns me is that I believe it could have been avoided. Every loss of a
: > castmember up till then had inspired a new character, and that is what had
: > always kept the show fresh. If they'd done it in year eight when Burghoff
: > left it might have worked then too. We'll never know now.
: but then again, he was just the company clerk. i don't see them drafting
: somebody new, transferring them to Korea (like with BJ) just to be a company
: clerk. a position not exactly on the same level as say a doctor or nurse...
Oh, I never said I thought Radar ought've been replaced by a new company
clerk. In fact I've said before - including on this newsgroup I believe -
I think the new character ought to have been a nurse.
George Hiebert
>
> George Hiebert <ge...@direct.ca> writes:
>
> |
> | And besides all that, the writing in the early era was FAR better.
> |
>
> If not better, it was at least funnier. The timing was also better.
>
> -Elf-
True. I also feel that Gelbart seemed to pack about an hour's worth of
entertainment into a 1/2 hour show. They felt complete yet unforced, you
couldn't squeeze another joke in if you tried. As others have said, the
humor felt forced in the latter years. "Showtime" seems like more of a
show than that U.S.O. two-parter in the later era.
Malene Hald
was the one in which Trapper leaves, and BJ arrives. At the time, I'd never
seen Trapper or Henry.
I loved MASH at the time - it ran every night late through my summerholiday,
and I never missed a show. Even on new year's eve, I watched it.....
The moment I'm writing, MASH is re-running once again, and the first 50
episodes has been aired. Now I know Trapper, and Henry. And I think that the
first episodes sure was the most funny, the pinball talking between
Hawkeye/Trapper/Frank....but I think the reason why the show lived so long
was, that it now stayed as totally comedy, with fake laughter and so, but
did became serious in the end - it was about a war, remember? When I washed
the last episodes 4 years ago, there where times when I cried because I
thought it was so damn unfair...but I also laughed - MASH forever:)
Malene
>1. The loss of Frank Burns. I am a Frank fanatic. When he left, the
>show lost it's comic foe for Hawkeye. Charles was never has lovable, or
>goofy, to watch. In time, they made Charles into a good guy. It just
>never worked as well.
Frank was a whiney and a wimp. But yes - after he left, Hawkeye coudn't
tease Charles in the same way. But if he'd stayed, he didn't have much to
do - Margareth became married, and therefore I don't think Frank would be
anything else than a bad habbit.
>2. B.J's mustache. I hated that mustache and his long hair. When they
>allowed Mike Farrell to look anyway he wanted to, they abandoned the
>idea that it was the 1950's in Korea. B.J looked like he belonged in
>Haight Ashbury in The Summer of Love, and not in the Korean War.
Yep - the mustache didn't look so good - I liked him better without.
>3. Klinger became company clerk. When Klinger stopped wearing dresses
>and became company clerk, he became just Radar's replacement. He lost
>his comic timing too.
Yep once again - in 1-2 episodes, Klinger just quitted his
"I'm-dressing-like-a-woman-to-get-out-of-the-army-image". That was stupid -
they should've brought in a new character.
Blowero
out, the writing just wasn't as good after the third season. I was looking at
the episode guide, and who wrote the shows, and the decline pretty much seems
to correspond with L.G. not writing anymore. And then the comedic timing just
wasn't there. In the early shows, there were so many subtle things that
happened, like maybe Hawkeye would say some hilarious line under his breath,
and the camera wouldn't even be on him, and it just made it that much funnier.
But after the third season, it just lost all spontaneity and seemed so forced,
like a bunch of people just sitting around reading their lines - no timing, no
subtlety.
And then, of course, there were the characters. I don't get why people think
you have to "like" every character on the show. Look at Seinfeld - every
character was despicable, with no depth at all, yet the show was incredibly
funny. I think it shows how much talent Alan Alda has, that he could play a
character that's virtually the polar opposite of his real personality, but I'm
sorry - he ruined the character by turning him into the new, improved,
politically-correct Hawkeye. He just became this annoying, whiny guy who had a
nervous breakdown every week.
Of course, B.J. was the perfect companion for the kinder, gentler Hawkeye.
Kind of like Trapper - light. Instead of punching Frank in the face, he might
put shaving cream in his toothpaste or something. And who cares about his wife
Peg and his kid Aaron and that he's from Mill Valley? How is that interesting
(let alone funny) at all? Just a milk-toast kind of character.
Then there's the new, self-realized Margaret. All the bitchiness, but only a
third of the humor. You just have to see that new hairstyle she got, and you
know nothing funny is going to come out of her mouth.
Col. Potter and Charles both started out as possibly interesting characters,
but both succumbed to the pressure of needing every character to be likable and
someone you can identify with. And don't get me started on Klinger - the
minute the dresses came off, he stopped making me laugh.
The bottom line is, MASH was the funniest show ever on television, but it
became so bad that I can't even stand to watch the newer episodes in
syndication. My brother and I, who are both big MASH fans, refer to it as "Old
MASH" and "New MASH", as in "Hey, they're showing Old MASHes on t.v. this
week". It was supposed to be a comedy - if people wanted to feel warm and
fuzzy, they should have watched The Waltons.
SptmbrWind
>out, the writing just wasn't as good after the third season.
>just
>wasn't there.
>forced,
>like a bunch of people just sitting around reading their lines - no timing,
>no
>subtlety.
>character that's virtually the polar opposite of his real personality, but
>I'm
>sorry - he ruined the character by turning him into the new, improved,
>politically-correct Hawkeye. He just became this annoying, whiny guy who had
>a
>nervous breakdown every week.
>Then there's the new, self-realized Margaret. All the bitchiness, but only a
>third of the humor.
>but both succumbed to the pressure of needing every character to be likable
>and
>someone you can identify with. And don't get me started on Klinger - the
>minute the dresses came off, he stopped making me laugh.
>The bottom line is, MASH was the funniest show ever on television, but it
>became so bad that I can't even stand to watch the newer episodes in
>syndication.
Why is it people seem to be intent on finding fault in everything? I'll admit,
sometimes M*A*S*H did seem to fall below standards, but would it be possible to
acknowledge that without setting the entire show and cast on fire? I know
everyone has a right to an opinion, but it seems that you have a grudge against
the series. I learned a long time ago to accept things as is, and not question
them, but I had to respond to this post, as it seems, to me, to be quite
fierce.
The point of this post is not to defend M*A*S*H, or say something to the nature
of "How can you talk that way about the best..." etc., but to question the
above quoted message. I know I'll probably get yelled at for posting my
opinions, which is why I don't normally do that. Oh, well.
Nickie
episodes is when Henry dies. I think that every era of
M*A*S*H had its ups and down. Granted later on it became a
bit more drama and a bit less comedy but it was still great.
George Hiebert
> The bottom line is, MASH was the funniest show ever on television, but it
> became so bad that I can't even stand to watch the newer episodes in
> MASH" and "New MASH", as in "Hey, they're showing Old MASHes on t.v. this
> week". It was supposed to be a comedy - if people wanted to feel warm and
> fuzzy, they should have watched The Waltons.
And aside from the impecable comedy of the early era, the anti-war
message still came through loud and clear. They didn't beat you over the
head with it, but the point still came across with some very poignant
scenes. When the message comes across in a subtle way, sometimes the
impact is more powerful.
Blowero
>Why is it people seem to be intent on finding fault in everything? I'll
>admit,
>sometimes M*A*S*H did seem to fall below standards, but would it be possible
>to
>acknowledge that without setting the entire show and cast on fire? I know
>everyone has a right to an opinion, but it seems that you have a grudge
>against
>the series. I learned a long time ago to accept things as is, and not
>question
>them, but I had to respond to this post, as it seems, to me, to be quite
>fierce.
Damn right I have a grudge against the series. I was disappointed to see the
best show ever on television turn into something barely better than a soap
opera. And I'm not the only one who feels that way. I'm sorry I gave my
honest opinion about something - I guess I was under the mistaken impression
that I had freedom of speech.
>
>The point of this post is not to defend M*A*S*H, or say something to the
>nature
>of "How can you talk that way about the best..." etc., but to question the
>above quoted message. I know I'll probably get yelled at for posting my
>opinions, which is why I don't normally do that. Oh, well.
But you don't seem to have any problem with yelling at me for posting my
opinion.
As Hawkeye would say: "Hypocrite at five o'clock".
Blowero
>episodes is when Henry dies. I think that every era of
>M*A*S*H had its ups and down. Granted later on it became a
>bit more drama and a bit less comedy but it was still great.
>
You know why that episode was the saddest? Because they didn't club you over
the head with the tragedy. The whole episode was funny - even the touching
farewell scene when Henry inspects the troops was interspersed with comedy.
Only at the very end - BAM! You find out that Henry is dead - but it's still
understated - they go on working in the face of this horrible thing that's
happened. It was pure genius. It's called subtlety - something that New MASH
just didn't have anymore.
Sometimes less is more.
SptmbrWind
>honest opinion about something - I guess I was under the mistaken impression
>that I had freedom of speech.
Of, course you have freedom of speech. It seems, however, that I don't. Go
figure.
>But you don't seem to have any problem with yelling at me for posting my
>opinion.
Neither do you.
>
>As Hawkeye would say: "Hypocrite at five o'clock".
Do tell.
Radarcom
best show ever on television turn into something barely better than a soap
opera.>>
What show are you talking about? I don't recall serialized storylines,
romances, revenge or campy acting. Are you talking about Dallas?
<< And I'm not the only one who feels that way. I'm sorry I gave my
honest opinion about something - I guess I was under the mistaken impression
that I had freedom of speech.>>
OK, so we've heard from two of you in the past twenty years. You ought to have
meetings.
Even the later seasons, M*A*S*H was heads above the rest and even experimental
with shows like "Life Time," "Dreams" and Alda's dead soldier episode. The
finale was unlike any finale ever before. And it went out with a bang at a
time when the sitcom was declared "dead." If you didn't like the show, there's
really little reason to devote such time to it.
You can't expect a show in its tenth season to be as good as its first. You
just hope it remains better than most of the dreck out there.
Radarcom
One more thing: to have a grudge against a television series should be grounds
for your own personal Dr. Freedman.
Unless, of course, you're the waitress they fired after the pilot of Seinfeld.
Radarcom
>episodes is when Henry dies. I think that every era of
>M*A*S*H had its ups and down. Granted later on it became a
>bit more drama and a bit less comedy but it was still great.
>
You know why that episode was the saddest?>>
Could it have anything to do with it being the only time a regular was killed
off?
<< Because they didn't club you over
the head with the tragedy.>>
That's because the episode wasn't about the tragedy. It was a one-page tag.
Most of the cast and crew didn't get that page until after the rest of the show
was shot.
As for other shows, next time someone does a show about war, they really need
to tone down all that tragedy...LOL.
Mikael Uhlin
>Oh, I never said I thought Radar ought've been replaced by a new company
>clerk. In fact I've said before - including on this newsgroup I believe -
>I think the new character ought to have been a nurse.
I think nurse Kellye was that "new" character. Like Igor and Zale (succeded
by Rizzo) her role gradually got bigger in the later seasons in much the
same way as Mulcahy and Klinger of the early seasons.
>I always believed that they married Margaret because
>Linville was leaving the show, not the other way around.
I agree.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: I'm sorry I gave my
: honest opinion about something - I guess I was under the mistaken impression
: that I had freedom of speech.
It befuddles me the frequency with which people on the internet cry,
"Right to free speech!" when their opinions are criticized. As if that
isn't what the fellow with the opposing opinion was exercising. The right
to free speech protects his expression of the opinion that your opinion
isn't worth expressing just as much as it protects your expression of the
opinion he feels isn't worth expressing! Call the skillet black too while
you're at it. Defend your own opinion if you want, but do it by engaging
an actual defense.
(Expression of the above opinion is protected under the First Amendment of
the Constitution of the United States of America(tm). Participation may
vary. Use at your own risk. Beware of the dog.)
--
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman - DOCTOR WHO, STAR
Paul Gadzikowski TREK, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER and M*A*S*H - King
Arthur's Round Table - Cartoons - Archy the Cockroach
scar...@iglou.com NEW 7/17: King Arthur's TRANSFORMATIONS
JayZ755
>
>
>I think nurse Kellye was that "new" character. Like Igor and Zale (succeded
>by Rizzo) her role gradually got bigger in the later seasons in much the
>same way as Mulcahy and Klinger of the early seasons.
>
But were those characters compelling enough to be developed? Klinger was very
successful, and Mulcahy was useful in plots and filled a niche. Of the rest,
Igor could be amusing, but I don't know that I needed to see any more of any of
those characters.
Jay
Shelybel5
> 1. The loss of Frank Burns.
This was a problem? I think the show got BETTER when Frank left! He was too
whiny. I liked the way Hawk and Trapper teased him, but Frank wasn't a good
character on the whole. Charles is much better. He is a more complex
character, and a good guy deep down.
>I don't have a problem with
>Alda's long held feminist beliefs, but they had no place in a show set
>in the 1950's. Remember, Lucy Ricardo couldn't even say the word,
>"pregnant", back then.
Let me just tell you that M*A*S*H was on from 1972-1983, NOT the fifties.
You're right in saying that Lucy would never say the word 'pregnant'. But that
was shown on TV in the FIFTIES. The '50s and the '70s were ENTIRELY different.
Even though the show was set in the '50s, the issues discussed there still
existed and weren't going to go away. Remember, a M*A*S*H unit wasn't exactly
a refined place. It was Korea in a middle of a war. Can you see Hawkeye
saying, "Margaret, you can't say the word 'pregnant' in public like that! It's
just not proper!" I don't think so.
Shell
Shelybel5
>duahgter all the time.
Whining? Do you have any kids? I don't, but I sure do know that I'd be a
little upset if I had to miss the first 2 years of my daughter's life. B.J.
did get a little depressing at times, but he's allowed.
>Margaret and Charles became good guys
Why do we have this 'good guy' 'bad guy' thing? Aren't they just all 'people'?
People have different personalities. I think the war changed Charles for the
better, and the show was a lot better for Margaret when Frank left so she could
find out what real life was all about.
Shell
Shelybel5
>fuzzy, they should have watched The Waltons.
I've been reading some of these past messages, and I can only say I'm apalled.
You think war is all fun and games? Sure, M*A*S*H is a comedy, that's why we
all love it. Practical jokes are what kept the doctors and nurses from going
crazy. Apparently all you people want to watch are one-sided characters who
have no feeling or heart. To me the characters are real people; it's just so
hard to imagine them as actors. And, like REAL LIFE, the people in M*A*S*H
laugh sometimes, and cry sometimes. That is definintely what makes the show so
great. I love Trapper, he's a really funny guy. But life is never all fun and
games.
Shell
Cyn aka Beaker
should be renamed "We hate M*A*S*H*".
*Shaking her head in disappointment*
=/
Cyn
Shelybel5 wrote:
--
"Never be afraid to try something new.
Remember, amateurs built the ark.
Professionals built the Titanic "
Radarcom
games.>>
Exactly. War was used as an extreme metaphor for life... people constantly
making good out of bad situations.
Reverend Powerlib
>From: shel...@aol.com (Shelybel5)
>Date: Fri, 03 September 1999 05:07 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990903170713...@ng-bk1.aol.com>
>
>>It was supposed to be a comedy - if people wanted to feel warm and
>>fuzzy, they should have watched The Waltons.
>
>I've been reading some of these past messages, and I can only say I'm
>apalled.
>You think war is all fun and games? Sure, M*A*S*H is a comedy, that's why we
>all love it. Practical jokes are what kept the doctors and nurses from going
>crazy.
I like Hawkeyes explanation of this: "Making jokes is the only way I can open
my mouth without screaming."
If he jokes like that in a war zone for that reason, one wonders what he is
like at home in the peacefulness of Crabapple Cove. Perhaps a witless bore?
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: PAUL GADZIKOWSKI wrote:
: >Oh, I never said I thought Radar ought've been replaced by a new company
: >clerk. In fact I've said before - including on this newsgroup I believe -
: I think nurse Kellye was that "new" character. Like Igor and Zale (succeded
: by Rizzo) her role gradually got bigger in the later seasons in much the
: same way as Mulcahy and Klinger of the early seasons.
I have to disagree there. There was no more development of Kellye's
character after Radar's departure than before, with the single glaring
exception of "Hey Look Me Over" which only puts the true situation into
stark relief. (At least Nurse Chapel on STAR TREK got her single defining
unrequited crush story at the >beginning< of her series.) Oh, and in "Life
Time" we discover she's half Chinese and half Hawaiian. But that's it.
--
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
http://members.iglou.com.scarfman
Expression of the above opinion(s) is protected under the First Amendment
Blowero
>apalled.
>You think war is all fun and games? Sure, M*A*S*H is a comedy, that's why we
>all love it.
You sure wouldn't know it from some of the late episodes.
Practical jokes are what kept the doctors and nurses from going
>crazy. Apparently all you people want to watch are one-sided characters who
>have no feeling or heart. To me the characters are real people; it's just so
>hard to imagine them as actors. And, like REAL LIFE, the people in M*A*S*H
>laugh sometimes, and cry sometimes. That is definintely what makes the show
>so
>great. I love Trapper, he's a really funny guy. But life is never all fun
>and
>games.
>Shell
Here's a clue, Shell - IT'S NOT REAL. It's a T.V. show. Anyone who thinks
Charles, Col. Potter, and B.J. are "better" characters because they are more
"realistic" has COMPLETELY missed the original point of the show.
And as for the rest of you kiddies who weren't even alive when MASH originally
aired, I suggest the following:
1. Rent the movie MASH - count how many times you laugh.
2. Watch the first 3 seasons of the t.v. show - again count how many times you
laugh.
3. Watch any episode after that - count how many times you laugh - don't
worry, you won't have to count very high.
4. If you are under 17, wait til you grow up, and then you will understand the
jokes.
Blowero
><<Damn right I have a grudge against the series. I was disappointed to see
>the
>best show ever on television turn into something barely better than a soap
>opera.>>
>
>What show are you talking about? I don't recall serialized storylines,
>romances, revenge or campy acting. Are you talking about Dallas?
Oh, yeah. I guess there weren't any serialized storylines on New MASH. So
Margaret's engagement, marriage, and subsequent failure of the marriage all
occured on the same episode?
No romances either - I guess Hawkeye and Margaret were just playing checkers,
then.
As for campy acting, I have 3 words: Rizzo, Klinger, and Kelly.
Blowero
> The right
>to free speech protects his expression of the opinion that your opinion
>isn't worth expressing just as much as it protects your expression of the
>opinion he feels isn't worth expressing!
I hope that made sense to you. It sounds like something out of "Catch-22".
If he has the right to criticize me for criticizing him for criticizing me,
don't I have the right to criticize him for criticizing me for criticizing him
for criticizing me, without being criticized by you? I think it would be
simpler to just allow people to express their opinion, thank you very much.
Blowero
>Date: Thu, 02 September 1999 02:36 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990902143645...@ng-cg1.aol.com>
>
>>Once again M*A*S*H wasn't all comedy. One of the saddest
>>episodes is when Henry dies. I think that every era of
>>M*A*S*H had its ups and down. Granted later on it became a
>>bit more drama and a bit less comedy but it was still great.
>>
>
>You know why that episode was the saddest?>>
>
>Could it have anything to do with it being the only time a regular was killed
>off?
So you're saying that it was only sad because a regular cast member died, not
because of any skill on the part of the writers, actors, director, or producer?
I disagree - I think the show was extremely well done, and that it why it was
so emotionally powerful.
><< Because they didn't club you over
>the head with the tragedy.>>
>
>That's because the episode wasn't about the tragedy. It was a one-page tag.
>Most of the cast and crew didn't get that page until after the rest of the
>show
>was shot.
Yes, that was my point, thank you. They didn't spend the entire half-hour show
emoting about the loss of Henry and hamming it up, so it was much more
surprising and effective.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: If he has the right to criticize me for criticizing him for criticizing me,
: don't I have the right to criticize him for criticizing me for criticizing him
: for criticizing me, without being criticized by you?
No. I have just as much right to criticize you for criticizing him for
criticizing you for criticizing M*A*S*H as you have to criticize him for
criticizing you for criticizing M*A*S*H, and as he has for criticizing you
for criticizing M*A*S*H, and as you have for criticizing M*A*S*H. But does
that mean we >should<? Doesn't it make us all look pretty petty? That's
what my post was trying to say.
: I think it would be
: simpler to just allow people to express their opinion, thank you very much.
I'm not being disallowed to express my opinion. Are you? You're not? - all
your messages are being posted to the newsgroup? Then what are you
complaining about? You're complaining that someone else posted a complaint
that you criticized M*A*S*H on the M*A*S*H discussion newsgroup. Surely it
had occurred to you that that might just happen?
Abigail
<URL:news:19990903165752...@ng-bk1.aol.com>:
++ >Then you had BJ whining about his
++ >duahgter all the time.
++
++ Whining? Do you have any kids? I don't, but I sure do know that I'd be a
++ little upset if I had to miss the first 2 years of my daughter's life. B.J.
++ did get a little depressing at times, but he's allowed.
But does that mean it has to be brought up during the show all the time?
Frank, Trapper and Henry had kids too. But they weren't whiny about it.
Abigail
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
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Blowero
>your messages are being posted to the newsgroup? Then what are you
>complaining about? You're complaining that someone else posted a complaint
>that you criticized M*A*S*H on the M*A*S*H discussion newsgroup.
I originally posted my opinion about a t.v. show. I did not attack anyone on
this newsgroup personally - I merely expressed my disappointment with the
direction the show took after the third season. Rather than merely disagree
with me, this person attacked me personally. He had no point other than to
criticize me. Then he had the audacity to whine about people attacking HIM.
In my book, that's called a hypocrite.
Surely it
>had occurred to you that that might just happen?
>
>--
>Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
Well, here is my "opinion" of you, Paul. You are an idiot. Did it occur to
you that I might say that? Stop wasting bandwidth with your inanity.
SptmbrWind
>with me, this person attacked me personally.
How'd I do that?
> He had no point other than to
>criticize me.
Actually, I was criticizing your opinions, but you can interpret any way you
wish.
>Then he had the audacity to whine about people attacking HIM.
>In my book, that's called a hypocrite.
I don't think i've ever whined in my life.
>Well, here is my "opinion" of you, Paul. You are an idiot. Did it occur to
>you that I might say that? Stop wasting bandwidth with your inanity.
Now, that's what I call "an attack."
Tuttle
>
> Could it have anything to do with it being the only time a regular was killed
> off?
Sorry for coming late into the thread but not at all. It doesn't matter
they killed a regular, if they would have killed Sherman Potter I
wouldn't have felt nearly the same amount of grief as I did when they
killed Henry. But it had to do with the regular they killed off and how
they killed him off. It wasn't memories of Henry or a funeral for Henry
it was Henry finally getting his papers and going home to be with his
family. It was genius how they didn't let any of the other cast members
know the surprise ending because the acting would have been completely
different. The death was a surprise to the cast, a surprise to the 4077,
and the death was a surprise to us. It was the surprise that made it so
sad, not the fact it was a regular
Tuttle
>
> >Then you had BJ whining about his
>
> Whining? Do you have any kids? I don't, but I sure do know that I'd be a
Trapper had 2 daughters and he didn't spend every episode saying "I miss
my daughters and my wife, oh woe is me"
> >Margaret and Charles became good guys
>
> Why do we have this 'good guy' 'bad guy' thing? Aren't they just all 'people'?
> People have different personalities. I think the war changed Charles for the
> better, and the show was a lot better for Margaret when Frank left so she could
> find out what real life was all about.
> Shell
Would opponents of Hawkeye be better for you? Because if you look at
Hawkeye as the good guy, Charles and Margaret were bad guys. But once
they became friends of Hawkeye, it is true, the hilarious confrontation
of earlier episodes were shot to hell.
Tuttle
>
> PAUL GADZIKOWSKI wrote:
> >Oh, I never said I thought Radar ought've been replaced by a new company
> >clerk. In fact I've said before - including on this newsgroup I believe -
> >I think the new character ought to have been a nurse.
>
> I think nurse Kellye was that "new" character. Like Igor and Zale (succeded
> by Rizzo) her role gradually got bigger in the later seasons in much the
> same way as Mulcahy and Klinger of the early seasons.
Yeah but remember the horrendous "Hey Look me Over"
Tuttle
>
> >I've been reading some of these past messages, and I can only say I'm
> >apalled.
> >You think war is all fun and games? Sure, M*A*S*H is a comedy, that's why we
> >all love it.
>
> You sure wouldn't know it from some of the late episodes.
>
> Practical jokes are what kept the doctors and nurses from going
> >crazy. Apparently all you people want to watch are one-sided characters who
> >have no feeling or heart. To me the characters are real people; it's just so
> >hard to imagine them as actors. And, like REAL LIFE, the people in M*A*S*H
> >laugh sometimes, and cry sometimes. That is definintely what makes the show
> >so
> >great. I love Trapper, he's a really funny guy. But life is never all fun
> >and
> >games.
> >Shell
>
> Here's a clue, Shell - IT'S NOT REAL. It's a T.V. show. Anyone who thinks
> Charles, Col. Potter, and B.J. are "better" characters because they are more
> "realistic" has COMPLETELY missed the original point of the show.
>
> And as for the rest of you kiddies who weren't even alive when MASH originally
> aired, I suggest the following:
>
> 1. Rent the movie MASH - count how many times you laugh.
The movie M*A*S*H really is a classic by the way. It's hardly discussed
on the newsgroup but I just want to put a good word in for it.
Nickie
when
MASH originally aired, I suggest the following:
1. Rent the movie MASH - count how many times you laugh. 2.
Watch the first 3 seasons of the t.v. show - again count how
many
times you laugh.
3. Watch any episode after that - count how many times you
laugh -
don't worry, you won't have to count very high.
4. If you are under 17, wait til you grow up, and then you
will
understand the jokes.
Umm excuses me, but as a 15 year old I really resent that
coment. Not only do I get all of jokes but find it very
pretentious of you to even refer to us in that manar. In
befalf of the other "kiddies" I would like to point out
that WE'RE NOT THE ONES FIGHTING LIKE 6 YEAR OLDS!
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Radarcom
sad, not the fact it was a regular>>
It was a surprise because it was a regular. And because that didn't happen
typically in primetime shows of the day. Guys died in Korea all the time on
M*A*S*H but since they weren't regulars, it wasn't as sad.
Radarcom
because of any skill on the part of the writers, actors, director, or
producer?>>
They are among the most talented --- ever. But it was a one page scene. The
impact came from it being a beloved regular. No other death on M*A*S*H-- and
few in television history-- had the same impact. Although expertly done,
Radar's speech and the reactions of the cast-- lasting about a minute-- would
have almost no effect on someone who had never watched M*A*S*H before and
invested emotions in the character. It would be like reading an obit about a
stranger as opposed to learning about the death of someone cherished.
<< I disagree - I think the show was extremely well done, and that it why it
was
so emotionally powerful.>>
We're not talking about the show (episode) because the episode-- in its
entirety-- had little to do with the death. If you dropped that last scene, it
was totally different show that had nothing to do with death.
>Yes, that was my point, thank you. They didn't spend the entire half-hour
show
emoting about the loss of Henry and hamming it up, so it was much more
surprising and effective.>>
Because that's not what the episode was about. The episode was about Henry
leaving Korea-- not his death. They could've gone either way with the last
scene. It was an epilogue... not the plot to the whole show.
Even if they had made a half-hour about the death of Henry, how would you blame
them for emoting or "hamming it up"? You must be a huge comfort at funerals.
NewsRadio did an exemplary job with such an episode-- even managing to infuse
humor in a deadly serious episode-- but I guess the actors must have been
"hamming it up" because they missed Hartman.
Radarcom
>romances, revenge or campy acting. Are you talking about Dallas?
Oh, yeah. I guess there weren't any serialized storylines on New MASH. So
Margaret's engagement, marriage, and subsequent failure of the marriage all
occured on the same episode?>>
The word is called "subplot." How dare they explore a relationship in a
long-lasting show? All the characters are supposed to stay the same every
episode for eleven years. Remember the organ music in "Hot Lips and Empty
Arms"? What a great soap opera episode of "Old M*A*S*H".
<<No romances either - I guess Hawkeye and Margaret were just playing checkers,
then.>>
Yeah, it lasted much longer than Frank and Margaret.
<<As for campy acting, I have 3 words: Rizzo, Klinger, and Kelly.>>
So Klinger in a dress in "Chief Surgeon Who" was Shakespearean? I don't think
so, Uta Hagen.
Radarcom
this newsgroup personally - I merely expressed my disappointment with the
direction the show took after the third season. >>
And you've come here to say that you've been dwelling on this for twenty-three
years?
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Shelybel5 (shel...@aol.com) wrote on MMCXCIV September MCMXCIII in
: <URL:news:19990903165752...@ng-bk1.aol.com>:
: ++ Whining? Do you have any kids? I don't, but I sure do know that I'd be a
: ++ little upset if I had to miss the first 2 years of my daughter's life. B.J.
: ++ did get a little depressing at times, but he's allowed.
: But does that mean it has to be brought up during the show all the time?
: Frank, Trapper and Henry had kids too. But they weren't whiny about it.
The analogy doesn't hold water: Neither Frank, Henry nor Trapper came to
war when their *first child* was merely months old. Of the three, only
Henry had one child who wasn't already talking when he was drafted (the
one born after he arrived in Korea). Frank's were even grown, or nearly,
if Nancy Sue Parker resembled his eldest. Not at all the same thing as
leaving behind your first as a newborn.
--
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: >Well, here is my "opinion" of you, Paul. You are an idiot. Did it occur to
: >you that I might say that? Stop wasting bandwidth with your inanity.
Now you're beginning to see! This entire discussion is inane, idiotic, a
waste of bandwidth, nothing but rhetoric, and you started it when you
reacted to criticism with your right-of-free-speech rhetoric instead of by
actually defending your opinion with a real argument. I'm glad I'm finally
getting through to you! It's all been worth it after all.
Abigail
in <URL:news:37d5...@news.iglou.com>:
++ Abigail (abi...@delanet.com) wrote:
++ :
++ : But does that mean it has to be brought up during the show all the time?
++ : Frank, Trapper and Henry had kids too. But they weren't whiny about it.
++
++ The analogy doesn't hold water: Neither Frank, Henry nor Trapper came to
++ war when their *first child* was merely months old. Of the three, only
++ Henry had one child who wasn't already talking when he was drafted (the
++ one born after he arrived in Korea). Frank's were even grown, or nearly,
++ if Nancy Sue Parker resembled his eldest. Not at all the same thing as
++ leaving behind your first as a newborn.
Frank seems a little to young to have an eldest daughter that resembles
Nancy Sue Parker - it might have very well be that Margereth made that up
on the spot. But I would certainly say that Henry had more reason to whine
than BJ. At least BJ *saw* his child. Henry never saw his youngest child.
Pam Burke
educational because it was about the war...go figure.
I must say I didn't understand a lot of the jokes when I was little, but
what 5 year old would. but that is what's great about MASH...you notice
something new, or understand the jokes/comments more everytime you watch it!
--
Pam :)
*******************************
Pam Burke
Charlottetown, PEI
hawk...@mash4077.com
*******************************
Ben Varkentine
>Trapper had 2 daughters and he didn't spend every episode saying "I miss
>my daughters and my wife, oh woe is me"
Trapper almost went AWOL to see his daughters and wife, after knocking Hawkeye
down, though. Even so, he wasn't the family man BJ was (Though every episode
is something of an exaggeration)
>the hilarious confrontation
>of earlier episodes were shot to hell.
Or moved to characters outside the camp, who would come in for one episode,
confront one or two of the regulars, and usually be sent packing with their
tail between their legs.
Ben
Read my drama crit column: http://www.slar.org
2nd installment now up: 9/1/99
"When people see things in print, there is a far greater need to respond than
if the same things were said in casual conversation."--Peter David
Ben Varkentine
>leaving Korea-- not his death. They could've gone either way with the last
>scene. It was an epilogue... not the plot to the whole show.
I think, though Larry G can correct me if I'm wrong, what you're missing is
that the episode was planned and written to lead up to Henry's death. The fact
that there isn't blatant foreshadowing (Though, as Larry pointed out recently,
there is some subliminally) was part of the point; to emphasize the sudden,
random nature of death in war. You seem to me to be saying Henry's death was
added as an afterthought, which was not the case as I understand it.
>NewsRadio did an exemplary job with such an episode-- even managing to infuse
>humor in a deadly serious episode-- but I guess the actors must have been
>"hamming it up" because they missed Hartman.
The thing I didn't like about that episode is that much of it seemed to be
about Hartman, the man, not McNeil, the character. Which is not to say that's
not understandable or even appropriate under the horrible conditions of
Hartman's death. But the only moment that seemed true to McNeil's character
was his note to Mathew; that's what he would have done.
None of the above should be read as disrespect to Hartman; I miss him every
time I watch Newsradio, which I think was his best work.
Elsig
blame
>them for emoting or "hamming it up"?
The fear was not that the cast would "ham" it up, if they knew in advance that
enry was going to die at the end of the episode; rather to avoid that knowledge
from affecting the way they felt about his leaving, with no hint of how doomed
he was.
As it is, for all of us, in our own lives - and I'm sure most of us don't go
about "hamming" it up, as a result.
LG
Blowero
[Me]: >>Yes, that was my point, thank you. They didn't spend the entire
half-hour
>show
>emoting about the loss of Henry and hamming it up, so it was much more
>surprising and effective.>>
>
>Because that's not what the episode was about. The episode was about Henry
>leaving Korea-- not his death. They could've gone either way with the last
>scene. It was an epilogue... not the plot to the whole show.
Do you just argue with me for the sake of argument? I saw the show, and I am
familiar with the sequence of events. A CHOICE was made not to have the entire
show be about Henry's death, but to leave his death until the very end of the
show, and not tell the cast members until they actually filmed the scene. I
applaud that choice. The cheap thing to do would have been to have scene after
scene of the characters' heart-wrenching reactions to Henry's death, and go
overboard trying to manipulate the audience's emotions. I think the way it was
done was far better. The suddenness of it made us think about what war is
really like, far more than a half-hour of melodrama would have. Obviously, you
don't agree - I guess you feel that it wouldn't have mattered one way or the
other. That's fine - you have your opinion, and I have mine - now can we drop
this subject?
Blowero
>Date: Tue, 07 September 1999 09:26 PM EDT
>Message-id: <19990907212622...@ng-co1.aol.com>
>
>>that's not what the episode was about. The episode was about Henry
>>leaving Korea-- not his death. They could've gone either way with the last
>>scene. It was an epilogue... not the plot to the whole show.
>
>that the episode was planned and written to lead up to Henry's death. The
>fact
>that there isn't blatant foreshadowing (Though, as Larry pointed out
>recently,
>there is some subliminally) was part of the point; to emphasize the sudden,
>random nature of death in war. You seem to me to be saying Henry's death was
>added as an afterthought, which was not the case as I understand it.
I apologize, since this has been covered already, but what was the subliminal
foreshadowing?
Blowero
>Margaret's engagement, marriage, and subsequent failure of the marriage all
>occured on the same episode?>>
>
>The word is called "subplot."
A "subplot" is a secondary plot that takes place on one episode. A "serialized
storyline" is a plot that spans more than one episode. They are not the same
thing. Margaret's engagement and marriage to Donald spanned many episodes.
Radarcom
So anyone married or experiencing a relationship of any length in television
connotes a serialized storyline? LOL.
You know they were in Korea for more than one episode. I guess the war was a
"serialized storyline."
Radarcom
Right. That's why it was so powerful. The audience, as well as the cast,
didn't see it coming and it doesn't affect their viewing of the earlier scenes.
I don't think Henry's death was leaked back then, either. I think even TV
Guide behaved themselves.
Radarcom
>leaving Korea-- not his death. They could've gone either way with the last
>scene. It was an epilogue... not the plot to the whole show.
I think, though Larry G can correct me if I'm wrong, what you're missing is
that the episode was planned and written to lead up to Henry's death. The fact
that there isn't blatant foreshadowing (Though, as Larry pointed out recently,
there is some subliminally) was part of the point; to emphasize the sudden,
random nature of death in war. You seem to me to be saying Henry's death was
added as an afterthought, which was not the case as I understand it.>>
I realize the staff certainly planned that ending. They could've had the next
twenty episodes planned when the viewer was watching the show but they
obviously don't know where they are being led.
To the viewer, who had not experienced it until the last scene, it was an
afterthought, an epilogue. It had no resonance to the earlier scenes until you
saw it or watched the episode again. It was like watching a show with a
cliffhanger ending or even a trailer. The ending doesn't necessarily define
the episode. If the show was about a birthday party and the birthday boy gets
run over by a truck at the end, it's still an episode about the party.
>NewsRadio did an exemplary job with such an episode-- even managing to infuse
>humor in a deadly serious episode-- but I guess the actors must have been
>"hamming it up" because they missed Hartman.
The thing I didn't like about that episode is that much of it seemed to be
about Hartman, the man, not McNeil, the character. Which is not to say that's
not understandable or even appropriate under the horrible conditions of
Hartman's death. But the only moment that seemed true to McNeil's character
was his note to Mathew; that's what he would have done.
None of the above should be read as disrespect to Hartman; I miss him every
time I watch Newsradio, which I think was his best work.>>
Obviously, Hartman's death was an unavoidable "reference" in that episode.
They did the episode for Phil more than for a resolution for Bill McNeil. It
was also interesting that it covered the events after the funeral. Most shows
would have gone with the cliched scenes during the funeral. That probably
would have been too painful for the cast and staff, as well.
Giesbrecht
Elsig <el...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990908120949...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
> As it is, for all of us, in our own lives - and I'm sure most of us don't
go
> about "hamming" it up, as a result.
>
> LG
> But you know how pierce hams it up when he has a hangnail "don't let the
bastard win!!"
visaman
Jason Barber
Elsig wrote in message <19990908152011...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
>>I don't think Henry's death was leaked back then, either. I think even
TV
>Guide behaved themselves.
>>
>
the
>ending and were going to publish it - the issue would have appeared on the
day
>that the episode aired.
>
>Some weeks before, I had given an interview to the magazine. The reporter
was
>an old friend, Leonard Gross, and since the subject had nothing to do with
>Henry Blake's last episode, I mentioned what we were going to do - first
>receiving his absolute, personal word that he would not include the story
in
>his piece.
>
>He called me a few days later and said that TV Guide was, indeed, going to
>publish the ending. He tried to stop them, but they felt they had a scop
and
>they were going to capitalize on it. (Why he told them, I have no idea.)
>
>I immediately called Merle Panett, then the publisher, and yelled,
threatened,
>cajoled, pleaded - my thesuarus fails me.
>
>Panett gave in. He did the right thing. I think a good many people did
the
>right thing in those days.
>
>End of memory (momentarily).
>
>LG
FANTASTIC!!
On behalf of my little circle of M*A*S*H friends I'd like to thank you not
only for your art of persuasion with the TV-Guide folks in '75 for
preserving the secrecy, but for giving the fortunate subscribers of this NG
yet another riveting behind-the-scenes tidbit. AUTHOR, AUTHOR!!
--JKB
Cory
rada...@aol.com says...
> The audience, as well as the cast, didn't see it coming and it doesn't
> affect their viewing of the earlier scenes.
I don't think it does even today, after we, the fans, have known for
what, 20+ years.
I can still pick up something that I didn't catch before when I watch
that eppy, and I swear that I actually don't think about/remember the end
of the eppy until it's almost there. There's still so much to watch
before that moment.
I don't ever recall sitting there during the syndie eppy and going "oh
poor, poor Henry" *sniff*, until the OR scene. I was watching and
enjoying scenes of a man who was getting ready to go home to his wife and
kids, not scenes of a man getting ready to go on his "death flight", if
you will. IMO, that says A LOT about the quality of Elsig, et al.'s
work.
Elsig said a few days ago that there were moments of foreshadowing
throughout that eppy, but IMO, unless you really watch for it, you don't
consciously pick up on it. The ending STILL sends a shiver down my
spine, too, even though, the minute that Radar steps in that OR, I know
exactly what he's gonna say and how he's gonna say it.
They may have had to film the OR scene twice, but IMO, they did the right
thing by withholding that last page (you know how a lot of times scenes
are done out of sequence due to logistics, etc.? Like they'll shoot a
scene with people making up before they shoot the one where they'd fight?
I would be right in assuming that the last OR scene where Henry's
death was announced was absolutely the last one shot, wouldn't I?). I
think they would've lost something big WRT the way the cast would've
played the rest of the episode if they hadn't done it this way.
> I don't think Henry's death was leaked back then, either. I think even TV
> Guide behaved themselves.
See Elsig's remarks in this thread about this. I was pretty surprised
about what he'd said WRT this matter.
--- Cory
--
*REMOVE* the "purrs" to reply
Ben Varkentine
>Date: Wed, 08 September 1999 01:19 PM EDT
>I apologize, since this has been covered already, but what was the subliminal
>foreshadowing?
Right after the first scene, when Henry is informed while in surgery that he'll
be going home, they cut to Henry's office. He is standing right next to the
mock skeleton he kept there-and the two are about the same size.
Stuff like that.
Ben
Read my drama crit column: http://www.slar.org
2nd installment now up: 9/1/99
"I am not paranoid, because I can say without a trace of irony that you are all
out to get me."-Dave Nelson, NewsRadio
Radarcom
On behalf of my little circle of M*A*S*H friends I'd like to thank you not
only for your art of persuasion with the TV-Guide folks in '75 for
preserving the secrecy, but for giving the fortunate subscribers of this NG
yet another riveting behind-the-scenes tidbit. AUTHOR, AUTHOR!!>>
I agree.
But if they were going to alert readers to the death in the listing, it would
have been in the TV GUIDE that came out the Tuesday before "Abysinnia, Henry"
aired. (M*A*S*H also aired on Tuesday then-- and I do remember it getting a
Close Up.)
If it was in an article published the same day as the episode, it still
would've tipped off those of us who buy next week's TVG early.
Radarcom
what, 20+ years.
I can still pick up something that I didn't catch before when I watch
that eppy, and I swear that I actually don't think about/remember the end
of the eppy until it's almost there. There's still so much to watch
before that moment.
I don't ever recall sitting there during the syndie eppy and going "oh
poor, poor Henry" *sniff*, until the OR scene. I was watching and
enjoying scenes of a man who was getting ready to go home to his wife and
kids, not scenes of a man getting ready to go on his "death flight", if
you will. IMO, that says A LOT about the quality of Elsig, et al.'s
work. >>
Agreed. The episode was more about Henry's life than his death.... which is a
tribute itself. Most people/characters should be remembered that way.
<<I would be right in assuming that the last OR scene where Henry's
death was announced was absolutely the last one shot, wouldn't I?). I
think they would've lost something big WRT the way the cast would've
played the rest of the episode if they hadn't done it this way.>>
And it's cool how they left in when the nurse dropped an instrument.
> I don't think Henry's death was leaked back then, either. I think even TV
> Guide behaved themselves.
See Elsig's remarks in this thread about this. I was pretty surprised
about what he'd said WRT this matter.>>
In TVG's defense, they don't always flag things like this. There was also the
"benefit" that it was the season finale and no new episode to synopsize the
following week that would reflect it. They remained vague about Jimmy Smits in
NYPD BLUE, didn't give away who Sam asked to marry for the 1985 CHEERS opener,
Furillo and Davenport's wedding on HILL ST, et al. They often publish synopses
for shows on Mondays and Tuesdays a week before the earlier episode has aired.
Often, they'll refer to something as a "tragedy" or "event", especially with
shows with multiple storylines.
They were also mercifully brief in synopsizing "Goodbye, Farewell and Amen".
Elsig
Thank you, thank you.
LG
Elsig
would've tipped off those of us who buy next week's TVG early.
>
I said it was the end of my memory, didn't I?
LG
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: >I don't think Henry's death was leaked back then, either. I think even TV
: Guide behaved themselves.
: >
: To the credit of TV Guide (<pre-Murdoch-owned TV Guide>), they knew about the
: ending and were going to publish it - the issue would have appeared on the day
: that the episode aired.
: Panett gave in. He did the right thing. I think a good many people did the
: right thing in those days.
: End of memory (momentarily).
I hate to do this to your memory of the right thing being done, but I
remember reading that Henry was going to die in PEOPLE the week before.
Exactly the week before. I remember saying later that the only thing that
saved that day for me was that M*A*S*H was going to be on that night
("White Gold"), and then even that wasn't enough.
Genna Reeney
| Some weeks before, I had given an interview to the magazine. The reporter
was
| an old friend, Leonard Gross, and since the subject had nothing to do with
| Henry Blake's last episode, I mentioned what we were going to do - first
| receiving his absolute, personal word that he would not include the story
in
| his piece.
|
| He called me a few days later and said that TV Guide was, indeed, going to
| publish the ending. He tried to stop them, but they felt they had a scop
and
| they were going to capitalize on it.
| (Why he told them, I have no idea.)
Oooh, bad boy Leonard.
| I immediately called Merle Panett, then the publisher, and yelled,
threatened,
| cajoled, pleaded - my thesuarus fails me.
|
| Panett gave in. He did the right thing. I think a good many people did
the
| right thing in those days.
A good man, Panett. Can we clone him?
--
Genna
Caren Pelletier
> Then there's the new, self-realized Margaret. All the bitchiness, but only a
> third of the humor. You just have to see that new hairstyle she got, and you
> know nothing funny is going to come out of her mouth.
>
Did Loretta Swit get a nose job also at some point? Her face just looks so
completely different (softer somehow) in the latter seasons, and I can't believe
it's just the hair.
Caren Pelletier
ca...@aidoann.com
PS Please excuse if this has been discussed before.
--
"Space science is earth science." -- Kim Stanley Robinson (author of "Red Mars",
"Green Mars", and "Blue Mars"), in a speech to the Second International Mars
Society Convention, Boulder, August 1999.
Ask me about sending a manned mission to Mars!
www.marssociety.org
Elsig
reading that Henry was going to die in PEOPLE the week before.
>
I have a vague recollection of that. Maybe I just chose to forget it and make
myself the hero of the TV Guide memory.
LG
Blowero
>connotes a serialized storyline? LOL.
If they got married during the course of the show, yes. Jerry Seinfeld said
that he was pressured by NBC to have a wedding on the show because they thought
it would boost ratings. He refused.
>You know they were in Korea for more than one episode. I guess the war was a
>"serialized storyline."
You obviously don't know the difference between a story line and a premise.
Blowero
>[Elsig]As it is, for all of us, in our own lives - and I'm sure most of us
don't go
>about "hamming" it up, as a result.>>
>
>[Radarcom] Right. That's why it was so powerful. The audience, as well as
the cast,
>didn't see it coming and it doesn't affect their viewing of the earlier
>scenes.
Radar, is someone else using your account? Because you just completely
contradicted yourself.
First you said Henry's death was emotionally powerful only because he was a
beloved character:
<< You know why that episode was the saddest?>>
<Could it have anything to do with it being the only time a regular was killed
off?
<<So you're saying that it was only sad because a regular cast member died, not
because of any skill on the part of the writers, actors, director, or
producer?>>
<They are among the most talented --- ever. But it was a one page scene. The
impact came from it being a beloved regular. No other death on M*A*S*H-- and
few in television history-- had the same impact. Although expertly done,
Radar's speech and the reactions of the cast-- lasting about a minute-- would
have almost no effect on someone who had never watched M*A*S*H before and
invested emotions in the character. It would be like reading an obit about a
stranger as opposed to learning about the death of someone cherished.>
But now you are agreeing with me that the unexpectedness of the scene is what
made it powerful. Please make up your mind.
Radarcom
>connotes a serialized storyline? LOL.
If they got married during the course of the show, yes.>>
Being married on a show isn't a storyline. ROTFL.
<<Jerry Seinfeld said
that he was pressured by NBC to have a wedding on the show because they thought
it would boost ratings. He refused.>>
I guess you missed the backwards episode. Are you wrong about everything?
You're also applying modern network requests/stunts to 70s programming. In
Margaret's case, it was part of her character development. Her fooling around
with Frank was getting old.
>You know they were in Korea for more than one episode. I guess the war was a
>"serialized storyline."
You obviously don't know the difference between a story line and a premise.>>
Oh, I do. Having Margaret married is a premise. It changes the status of the
character. Especially if there's no end to the marriage planned, it isn't a
storyline.
I guess BJ's mustache was a serialized storyline, too. You slay me.
Radarcom
People. People who read People...
Nancy Temple
news:0f553ea2...@usw-ex0106-042.remarq.com...
> And as for the rest of you kiddies who weren't even alive
> when
> MASH originally aired, I suggest the following:
>
> 1. Rent the movie MASH - count how many times you laugh. 2.
> Watch the first 3 seasons of the t.v. show - again count how
> many
> times you laugh.
> 3. Watch any episode after that - count how many times you
> laugh -
> don't worry, you won't have to count very high.
> 4. If you are under 17, wait til you grow up, and then you
> will
> understand the jokes.
>
> Umm excuses me, but as a 15 year old I really resent that
> coment. Not only do I get all of jokes but find it very
> pretentious of you to even refer to us in that manar. In
> befalf of the other "kiddies" I would like to point out
> that WE'RE NOT THE ONES FIGHTING LIKE 6 YEAR OLDS!
BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO! I am 36 and I was even offended by that. I was 9 years
old when it first started and I loved it even then. I think I was the only
4th grader in my class that watched it. I may not have gotten all the jokes
then, but I am sure it was way before I was 17 that I did.
And thanks for the good laugh. This thread was getting way too serious and
I needed a good chuckle.
--
--Nancy
Abigail
<URL:news:rtgeiv...@corp.supernews.com>:
++
++ I may not have gotten all the jokes
++ then, but I am sure it was way before I was 17 that I did.
How would you know? If someone says something, and you don't laugh, are
you sure you didn't miss a joke? If you do laugh, are you sure you got it
the way it was intended? Does it matter if you don't "get" all the jokes?
Abigail
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World!
------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----
Blowero
>you sure you didn't miss a joke? If you do laugh, are you sure you got it
>the way it was intended? Does it matter if you don't "get" all the jokes?
Yes, it does indeed matter. I don't even get all the jokes myself - there are
so many and some are quite subtle - I pick up new things almost every time I
see the old episodes. But I understand enough to realize how great the show
was the first 3 seasons, and how it was just treading water the rest of the
time.
My point was that kids might like B.J., Charles, Col. Potter, and the gang
because they all turned into nice, warm, cuddly people - BUT IT'S NOT FUNNY.
The writing on Old MASH was nothing short of amazing. Who cares how "complex"
the characters were - I was rolling on the floor laughing. Plus, there were
some poignant messages thrown in there, too.
>
>
>Abigail
Radarcom
are
so many and some are quite subtle - I pick up new things almost every time I
see the old episodes. But I understand enough to realize how great the show
was the first 3 seasons, and how it was just treading water the rest of the
time.>>
Since you're the only one with that opinion, you must be right and millions are
wrong.
See, Elsig, we're just finding out now that your work in the fourth season
wasn't any good. You were writing a soap opera and didn't even know it!
<<NICE, CUDDLY PEOPLE>>
Yeah, they all loved Winchester. As for the rapport among the rest of them,
maybe you ought to stick with cartoons if you don't understand character
development. Or experiment with relationships in real life where friends
develop fondness for each other after spending time together.
Elsig
wasn't any good. You were writing a soap opera and didn't even know it!
>
Look, guys, if we're all going to have to live in this tent together until one
of us ships out, let's try not to get under each other's skin - it's not like
one size fits all.
LG
Blowero
>wasn't any good. You were writing a soap opera and didn't even know it!
>
>
Actually, the few that L.G. wrote in the fourth season were pretty funny. I'm
sorry if I offend anyone, but the main culprit was Alan Alda. I think he's an
incredible talent, but I did not care for his writing on the later MASH
episodes. And I'm hardly the only person who has ever said this.
I'm sorry to keep harping on this point, but if you don't see the vast
difference between the shows that Elsig wrote the first 3 seasons (and part way
into the 4th), and the later ones that were written by others, I don't think
you truly appreciate what a great writer he is.
Blowero
>one
>of us ships out, let's try not to get under each other's skin - it's not like
>one size fits all.
>
>LG
"Sorry, warden - the pressure got to me."
I will consider the subject dropped.
Abigail
<URL:news:19990910142103...@ng-cg1.aol.com>:
++ <<Yes, it does indeed matter. I don't even get all the jokes myself - there
++ are
++ so many and some are quite subtle - I pick up new things almost every time I
++ see the old episodes. But I understand enough to realize how great the show
++ was the first 3 seasons, and how it was just treading water the rest of the
++ time.>>
++
++ Since you're the only one with that opinion, you must be right and millions a
++ wrong.
Well, Blowero might have expressed himself a bit strong, but he certainly
isn't the first person who expressed the feeling here that the first 3
years were the best.
George Hiebert
assessment of the great first 3. They were brilliant indeed due to the
genius of Elsig and company.
Tuttle
>
> The thing I didn't like about that episode is that much of it seemed to be
> about Hartman, the man, not McNeil, the character. Which is not to say that's
> not understandable or even appropriate under the horrible conditions of
> Hartman's death. But the only moment that seemed true to McNeil's character
> was his note to Mathew; that's what he would have done.
> None of the above should be read as disrespect to Hartman; I miss him every
> time I watch Newsradio, which I think was his best work.
Tuttle
I thought it was about both and, interestingly enough, wasn't just about
the life of either. The characters were in context completely, the
Matthew/Lisa discussion about burials seemed like something that could
have come from another episode and the ending with them stealing from
Bill's desk is a memorial to Bill- stealing things from other's desks
was a personal favorite pasttime of his.
I also liked the episode because they didn't show clips of his. Clips
are used all the time with a character's departure- not using clps
showed a great deal of professionalism on their part. I personally
thought the episode deserved an Emmy for best writing in a sitcom for
being professional yet paying a superb tribute to Phil Hartman. I also
didn't see (hear?) any other scripts that was as good
Radarcom
isn't the first person who expressed the feeling here that the first 3
years were the best.>>
It's not that the first 3 aren't the best-- they are-- but the other 8 aren't
"New M*A*S*H" or crap.
Radarcom
difference between the shows that Elsig wrote the first 3 seasons (and part way
into the 4th), and the later ones that were written by others, I don't think
you truly appreciate what a great writer he is.>>
In many ways, the fourth season has strengths the third does not. They lost
two of the lead characters and replaced them almost flawlessly. Many shows
flop after such a transition-- not to mention its Friday 8:30 death slot. BJ
and Potter's smooth transition aside, many episodes, in and of themselves, are
classics ("Quo Vadis, Captain Chandler," "The Interview, "The Late Captain
Pierce.")
Steve Skyler
stale, and had the character switches not taken place, the show prob
wouldn't have lasted as long (the later seasons of MASH were nothing to
scoff at). I think the bigger loss was Frank. That's when the show
really lost that comic edge because there was so much great material at
his expense. Charles was too human for Hawkeye to cut lose on and not
have the audience feel bad for him, and Margaret became nicer too. That
was why the Flagg episodes stood out as such high comedy. He was an
excellent foil. Even Charles could make a fool of him. The episode
where they thought Margaret was abducted was priceless (particularly the
entire swamp scene, most of which was cut--actually MANY excellent Swamp
scenes of the greatest comedy were cut along with Henry's sex lectures,
etc).
What would have been interesting was if Trapper had stayed one more year
to interact with Potter, then BJ, or Henry one more year with Beej...
maybe in a parellel universe, haha.
Elf
| <<I'm sorry to keep harping on this point, but if you don't see the vast
| difference between the shows that Elsig wrote the first 3 seasons (and part way
| into the 4th), and the later ones that were written by others, I don't think
| you truly appreciate what a great writer he is.>>
|
| In many ways, the fourth season has strengths the third does not. They lost
| two of the lead characters and replaced them almost flawlessly. Many shows
| flop after such a transition-- not to mention its Friday 8:30 death slot. BJ
| and Potter's smooth transition aside, many episodes, in and of themselves, are
| classics ("Quo Vadis, Captain Chandler," "The Interview, "The Late Captain
| Pierce.")
I totally agree with you, Radarcom.
Personally I think seasons 3-7 are the best seasons. Together with large
parts of season 2 and 8 they, for me, form the classic MASH. I still like
the later seasons, but I must agree with those who say that MASH was on
the air at least one season too much. This is pretty common, Seinfeld was
on the air 3 seasons too much.
-Elf-
--
Mail: e...@mo.himolde.no URL: http://www.mo.himolde.no/~elf/ IRC: Elf/Alv
"Now I know why they shoot people at sunrise. Who wants to live at six
o'clock in the morning?"
Genna Reeney
| <<Radarcom>>
| >See, Elsig, we're just finding out now that your work in the fourth
season
| >wasn't any good. You were writing a soap opera and didn't even know it!
|
| difference between the shows that Elsig wrote the first 3 seasons (and
part way
| into the 4th), and the later ones that were written by others, I don't
think
| you truly appreciate what a great writer he is.
Okay, Elsig, are you blushing yet? Have we embarrassed you enough or would
you like us to get specific? ;- )
--
Genna
Blowero
>parts of season 2 and 8 they, for me, form the classic MASH. I still like
>the later seasons, but I must agree with those who say that MASH was on
>the air at least one season too much. This is pretty common, Seinfeld was
>on the air 3 seasons too much.
>
>-Elf-
That's true. Seinfeld jumped the shark in a big way.