When did MASH turn serious?
notme
seemed like the turning point and made MASH more of a drama than a comedy?
I just watched the episode where the army declares Hawkeye dead.
quincywagstaff
8th Season. I wouldn't call it drama, but it sure was a tragedy.
dirwuf
> Maybe this has been hashed over before, but when episode(s) was it that
> seemed like the turning point and made MASH more of a drama than a
> comedy?
The first time I really noticed it was the 6th season episode, "In Love
and War".
MarkO
...I really can't pinpoint it to one pivotal episode. I think the one
where Hawkeye was declared dead is good, and I love "Digger". But I
think it seems sad to me because , at this point in the show's run,
I'm still reeling from Henry getting killed and Trapper leaving. And
BJ was just so serious.
In general, if there is an answer to your question, I'd have to
agree with Quincywagstaff and say season 8 is when things got very
serious.
dirwuf
> I'd have to agree with Quincywagstaff and say season 8 is when things got very
> serious.
That's true if you define "serious" as "not funny".
I think the ratio of humor to drama didn't change, just the quality if
the humor.
MarkO
> On 2007-02-10 10:36:25 -0600, "MarkO" <mark...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > I'd have to agree with Quincywagstaff and say season 8 is when things got very
> > serious.
>
> That's true if you define "serious" as "not funny".
>
> I think the ratio of humor to drama didn't change, just the quality if
> the humor.
...I think Eddie said (typed) it best when he said (typed), in
describing the above-mentioned change in MASH, "funny tent, serious
tent"
quincywagstaff
>
> > I'd have to agree with Quincywagstaff and say season 8 is when things got very
> > serious.
>
> That's true if you define "serious" as "not funny".
>
> I think the ratio of humor to drama didn't change, just the quality if
> the humor.
Yes. And, as too few people seem to realize or admit, the quality of
the drama dropped too.
Esther
"quincywagstaff" <amu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1171129755....@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
All of which has a direct correlation to the time since Elsig left the show.
But there was one season 1 ep that was quite serious - "Sometimes you hear
the bullet" - but it was better written than later (post season 4) seasons'
episodes.
MarkO
> All of which has a direct correlation to the time since Elsig left the show.
> But there was one season 1 ep that was quite serious - "Sometimes you hear
> the bullet" -
...And yet, the seriousness is really intense in just one or two
scenes at the end. Otherwise, the humor remains intact and well done,
in my opinion.
Esther
"A" <a...@hot.net> wrote in message
news:BVqzh.597$Jl...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "Esther" <curios...@slingshot.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1171136203.396235@ftpsrv1...
> > All of which has a direct correlation to the time since Elsig left the
> > show.
> > But there was one season 1 ep that was quite serious - "Sometimes you
hear
> > the bullet" - but it was better written than later (post season 4)
> > seasons'
> > episodes.
>
in
> any season.
> Still hasn't been topped for dramatic impact in any future
> M*A*S*H episodes.
I agree but the announcement of Henry's death in "Abyssinia, Henry" comes
very close.
> My personal favorite episode for showing the stupidity of war
> [*], except for [U.S.] self-defense; which Korea clearly was not.
Again, I agree. Has some interesting parallels today, doesn't it? (Ok,
someone will get very upset with me saying that, I know).
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Maybe this has been hashed over before, but when episode(s) was it that
'Sometimes You Hear The Bullet' in the first season was the first time the
creative staff consciously put together a story deeper than your usual
sitcom story. Everything else done after that, whether by Gelbart &
Reynolds or by their successors, whether a given viewer believes it was
done well or not, was an attempt to match or to better what was done then.
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com since 1995
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
"Eric Burns taught a man to fish."
Esther
> They would get upset if they woke up to a bright, sunny day.
Yeah, true too. Vampirism stinks. :-)
I noticed that Obama has been describing the Iraq war as a civil war; the
Korean war has been described in a similar fashion. The last five years have
struck me as containing some of the sentiments of the McCarthy era, except
this time it isn't communists.
Actually, in 'Dear Dad, again' (season 1) I noticed how they had what
Hawkeye describes as a 'no-talent show' raising funds for Korean refugees.
Father Mulcahy tells the audience how much they've raised, plus "$5 for
Israel" and everyone glares at Frank Burns. Reminds me of other people I've
met who are similar in political views to Burns. So much of MASH is relevant
to today, I think.
Esther
> George W. Bush (with Dick Cheney and co.) make Frank Burns look like a
mealy-mouth, no-chin, sniveling wife-lover, and a laid-back moderate to
> boot.
> <lol>
>
> Margaret to you-know-who: "You chinless chipmunk! Remove
your
> hand, or I'll zap you with my knee!"
>
> The zingers the writers wrote for Margaret against that
chinless
> chipmunk were priceless!
>
They were brilliant. I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the term
'mealy mouth'. I've only ever heard it on TV or read it, never heard it used
in day-to-day life. What does it mean exactly? One minor thing I've been
wondering about for some time!
Someone said to me yesterday that you know that people are healthy mentally
if they are able to laugh at themselves. Frank wasn't capable of that -
weirdly enough, neither is my grandmother, who is incapable of any degree of
insight because of a severe mental illness. On the other hand, Hawkeye,
Trapper, BJ, Blake, Potter, Radar and Klinger (and Margaret after ending her
fling with Frank) were very capable of doing so. Like Trapper, bemoaning the
fact that Hawkeye had just given him a hard time about the still running out
of gin, saying, "Our first fight." Or Klinger, while running around in
women's clothes, well able to deal with any ridicule coming his way by
snapping back with a witty retort.
Cory
> Yeah, true too. Vampirism stinks. :-)
> I noticed that Obama has been describing the Iraq war as a civil war; the
> Korean war has been described in a similar fashion.
Korea wasn't even close to a civil war. It was a war between two
separate countries. Whoever described the Korean conflict as anything
even NEAR a civil war is a flat-out idiot (note that I'm NOT calling
YOU an idiot, Esther... you seem to be merely repeating something
you've heard elsewhere about the Korean conflict, and repeating
something that you've heard doesn't necessarily make a person an
idiot... and certainly not in this case).
Iraq, OTOH, regardless of how you feel about it and/or the person
orchestrating our involvement in Iraq, IS *indeed* a civil war, IMHO.
--- Cory
Esther
"Cory" <ony...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171309158....@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 11, 2:20 pm, "Esther" <curiosity...@slingshot.co.nz> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, true too. Vampirism stinks. :-)
> > I noticed that Obama has been describing the Iraq war as a civil war;
the
> > Korean war has been described in a similar fashion.
>
> Korea wasn't even close to a civil war. It was a war between two
> separate countries. Whoever described the Korean conflict as anything
> even NEAR a civil war is a flat-out idiot (note that I'm NOT calling
> YOU an idiot, Esther... you seem to be merely repeating something
> you've heard elsewhere about the Korean conflict, and repeating
> something that you've heard doesn't necessarily make a person an
> idiot... and certainly not in this case).
<lol> Thank you!
>
> Iraq, OTOH, regardless of how you feel about it and/or the person
> orchestrating our involvement in Iraq, IS *indeed* a civil war, IMHO.
I agree entirely. Actually where I read about the Korean war being a civil
war was on Wikipedia. The US troops (and all the others) were there by UN
mandate, whereas Iraq is a totally different story. Interesting parallels in
some ways though. Now, I've got to go, MASH is on.
Esther
> x-no-archive: yes
>
Now, I've got to go, MASH is on.
>
>
> know) they were, and what station in NZ shows MASH.
>
The episode was Hepatitis, and it's on TV3 at 11.30 a.m. each weekday. I
found a website with the eps guide: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/tv/mash/guide/
Thanks for the link to dictionary.com. By its definition, I'm definitely not
mealymouthed <rotflol> especially considering how often I put my foot in it.
Hallie Hearn
A wrote:
>
> >
>
> Try this great on-line resource for looking up the meaning of words:
>
> http://dictionary.com
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=mealy%20mouthed
> meal y-mouthed
>
> –adjective
>
> avoiding the use of direct and plain language, as from timidity, excessive
> delicacy, or hypocrisy; inclined to mince words; insincere, devious, or
> compromising. [that's Frank Burns, in a nutshell!]
>
> Also, meal·y·mouthed.
>
One of the most famous uses of the term "mealy-mouthed" is from Gone
With the Wind (used by Scarlett about Melanie). I think it originally
came from poor people talking with cornmeal mush in their mouths,
thereby making their words unintelligible.
Hallie
Esther
"Hallie Hearn" <Hallie...@alumni.wfu.edu> wrote in message
news:45D10FA9...@alumni.wfu.edu...
>
>
> A wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > Try this great on-line resource for looking up the meaning of words:
> >
> > http://dictionary.com
> >
> > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=mealy%20mouthed
> > meal y-mouthed
> >
> >
> > avoiding the use of direct and plain language, as from timidity,
excessive
> > delicacy, or hypocrisy; inclined to mince words; insincere, devious, or
> > compromising. [that's Frank Burns, in a nutshell!]
> >
> >
> One of the most famous uses of the term "mealy-mouthed" is from Gone
> With the Wind (used by Scarlett about Melanie). I think it originally
> came from poor people talking with cornmeal mush in their mouths,
> thereby making their words unintelligible.
In the words (or word) of Spock, "Fascinating." I do find etymology
fascinating, actually (as opposed to entomology or etiology) <grin> don't
know if I've spelt either of them correctly. Oddly enough, Frank Burns may
say words that are familiar but the ideas or logic are unintelligible.
I have a definition or two of my own:
Finkery: (n.) acts of malicious and sly deviousness, most often carried out
by Frank Burns, e.g. his weekly anonymous reports.
Fink: (n.) Frank Burns
Rat-fink: (n.) same as above
Skulduggery: (n) similar to finkery, except usually carried out by someone
with a rather higher intelligence quotient than Frank Burns.
Extrasensory perception: (n) The ability to hear choppers before they come
into normal human earshot or to know what people want before they want it.
Radar is an excellent example of one who has this particular attribute.
Incompetence: (n) Frank Burns
Outrage: (n) A frequent feeling voiced by Major Margaret Houlihan,
especially with regard to Captains Pierce and McIntyre in seasons 1-3
Indecisiveness: (n) The inability to make decisions. Lt-Col. Henry Blake is
a good example of this. "The chair from which a thousand indecisions have
been launched" I think is the best quote - though I've probably got it
wrong.
Panic: (n) The emotion felt by Frank Burns every time Margaret says "You are
so strong in a crisis." It usually leads him to faint or wet himself.
Anyone got any other fascinating definitions to add?
Esther
> >
> > Outrage: (n) A frequent feeling voiced by Major Margaret Houlihan,
> > especially with regard to Captains Pierce and McIntyre in seasons 1-3
>
> Pierce in seasons 4-11, either; exc. in that out-in-the-woods cabin when
> being shelled and with the N. Korean soldiers hanging around when they had
> their one-night 'affair'. <lol>
>
> "Oh, boy am I glad you *found* us!"
> --Capt. Pierce
>
> Margaret: <HARD SLAP>
Well, she at least tolerated him somewhat more I think.
>
>
> > Indecisiveness: (n) The inability to make decisions. Lt-Col. Henry Blake
> > is
> > a good example of this. "The chair from which a thousand indecisions
have
> > been launched" I think is the best quote - though I've probably got it
> > wrong.
>
> I believe you got Capt. Pierce's quote correct.
>
> > Panic: (n) The emotion felt by Frank Burns every time Margaret says "You
> > are
> > so strong in a crisis." It usually leads him to faint or wet himself.
>
> I never saw the episode(s) where Frank Burns wet himself. <g>
Nah, me neither. Just extrapolated that he might have. Actually I think
Hawkeye claimed to have, I think in "The Army-Navy game"
Hallie Hearn
Esther wrote:
>
>
> > I never saw the episode(s) where Frank Burns wet himself. <g>
>
> Nah, me neither. Just extrapolated that he might have. Actually I think
> Hawkeye claimed to have, I think in "The Army-Navy game"
>
>
Frank did wet himself in the episode where Hawkeye and Trapper dip his
hand in his helmet full of warm water...
Hugs,
Hallie
Esther
Actually, you're probably right there. The look on his face was priceless!
>
> Hugs,
> Hallie
Esther
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> I never get tired of giving credit to all the outstanding
comedy
> writers on all the great sitcoms (incl. M*A*S*H) who slave away trying to
> get laughs from an unseen audience.
> Has to be one of the toughest jobs to do consistently well,
> week-after-week, year-after-year.
> Great and well-known examples in no particular order: Larry
> Gelbart,
Long live Elsig! <grin>
>Carl Reiner, Mel Brooks, Buck Henry, Larry David, Leonard Stern,
> Madelyn Pugh and the late Bob Carroll Jr., and so many other lesser-known
> comedy writers.
> Without good comedy writers you can have the greatest
comedians
> or actors mouth the lines but they can't be funny enough by themselves to
> get the big laughs.
> M*A*S*H, The Dick Van Dyke Show, Get Smart, I Love Lucy, The
> Honeymooners, and only another handful (maybe two) of sitcoms get to rank
> among the greatest sitcoms, first of all in having great writers and then
> having the luck to have great actors and actresses to deliver the lines.
> But it starts with the writing staff, and builds from there.
>
I agree. The more I watch M*A*S*H, the more I am aware of the genius behind
the writing of such comedy. I enjoy reading good writing, and as I listen
more carefully to the words spoken on television, the more aware I am of the
broad range of talent (or lack thereof) among writers. Someone will surely
disagree, but I think one of the better younger writers is Joss Whedon
(Buffy etc), and another is Matt Groening (The Simpson's). But they are in
quite a different category from the MASH writers that we've grown to love.
At least I assume Groening and Whedon do a lot of their own writing!
As for the other shows you've mentioned, I have to confess that since I
didn't actually have a TV growing up (not normal, even here down under!),
I'm not altogether familiar with those shows, though I have heard of them.
And I'm young, too, which probably plays a part!
Bandersnatch
In the first season.
"Sometimes You Hear the Bullet."
Cory
> "Hallie Hearn" <Hallie.He...@alumni.wfu.edu> wrote in message
<snip...>
> > Frank did wet himself in the episode where Hawkeye and Trapper dip his
> > hand in his helmet full of warm water...
>
> Actually, you're probably right there. The look on his face was priceless!
Not to mention the sound he made when he woke up! LOL...
--- Cory
Parry
>Someone will surely disagree, but I think one of the better
> younger writers is Joss Whedon (Buffy etc), and another is Matt
> Groening (The Simpson's). But they are in quite a different category
> from the MASH writers that we've grown to love. At least I assume
> Groening and Whedon do a lot of their own writing!
Well i know on the Buffy & Angel DVD's they basically say that it's loads of
different writers who do each show and the script passes through Joss's
hands and all the best lines from each episode are Joss's - sure i read
someting similar said about Elsig
--
Parry
http://www.pazza.biz
Esther
> Only asking so I'll have an idea what generation to place you
> and what tv shows you grew up with.
> Since you are young, you probably won't object to telling (as
> "older" women, 40+ object).
> <g>
28! Yeah, I'm young. I would have grown up with the Cosby Show etc if I'd
had a TV growing up
Esther
"Parry" <dgpa...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:au%Ah.72$I46...@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
I've heard that too.
> Parry
> http://www.pazza.biz
>
>
George Hiebert
"Esther" <curios...@slingshot.co.nz> wrote
> I agree. The more I watch M*A*S*H, the more I am aware of the genius
> behind
> the writing of such comedy. I enjoy reading good writing, and as I listen
> more carefully to the words spoken on television, the more aware I am of
> the
> broad range of talent (or lack thereof) among writers.
When we used to do mash chats, one of us would pipe in the audio of a mash
ep. When listening to early classic eps, like Gelbart eps, I was amazed how
well the writing stood up, even without the visuals. It was like a good
radio play.
MarkO
> When we used to do mash chats, one of us would pipe in the audio of a mash
> ep. When listening to early classic eps, like Gelbart eps, I was amazed how
> well the writing stood up, even without the visuals. It was like a good
> radio play.
...Back in the late 70's as a kid, there were no vcrs or dvd players.
So, I taped one episode of MASH on my tape recorder. I must have
listened to WHITE GOLD a thousand times and loved it as much without
visuals. Really cool backround music in that one.
VINCE
Towering Inferno, not the same thing, well with HELP you had the singing.
George Hiebert
>
> "Hallie Hearn" <Hallie...@alumni.wfu.edu> wrote
>> Frank did wet himself in the episode where Hawkeye and Trapper dip his
>> hand in his helmet full of warm water...
>
> Actually, you're probably right there. The look on his face was priceless!
The reaction looks from Hawk and Trap were even more priceless.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: ...Back in the late 70's as a kid, there were no vcrs or dvd players.
: So, I taped one episode of MASH on my tape recorder. I must have
: listened to WHITE GOLD a thousand times and loved it as much without
: visuals. Really cool backround music in that one.
I still have most of seasons 2 through 6 in a shoebox somewhere. I don't
know whether they're still listenable after thirty years but they're
there.
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com since 1995
http://www.arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily.
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman/new.htm Fanfiction stories and cartoons.
"Eric Burns taught a man to fish."
Paul Gadzikowski
> ...Back in the late 70's as a kid, there were no vcrs or dvd players.
> So, I taped one episode of MASH on my tape recorder. I must have
> listened to WHITE GOLD a thousand times and loved it as much without
> visuals. Really cool backround music in that one.
I still have most of seasons 2 through 6 in a shoebox somewhere. I
don't
know whether they're still listenable after thirty years but they're
there.
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman Fanfiction stories and cartoons
http://arthurkingoftimeandspace.com New cartoons daily
MarkO
>
> The reaction looks from Hawk and Trap were even more priceless.
...I absolutely love that scene, specifically because of the looks on
their faces which you allude to. Trapper grinning, but Hawkeye as
droll as can be. That just made the scene. Contrast that to, say,
Hawkeye in the backround when BJ is shown without half his mustache in
THE JOKER'S WILD. Hawkeye silently looks like he's an over excited
cheerleader.
Esther
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> >> > As for the other shows you've mentioned, I have to confess that since
I
> >> > didn't actually have a TV growing up (not normal, even here down
> > under!),
> >> > I'm not altogether familiar with those shows, though I have heard of
> > them.
> >> > And I'm young, too, which probably plays a part!
> >>
> >> How young, if I may ask?
> >> Only asking so I'll have an idea what generation to place
you
> >> and what tv shows you grew up with.
> >> Since you are young, you probably won't object to telling
(as
> >> "older" women, 40+ object).
> >> <g>
> >
> > 28! Yeah, I'm young. I would have grown up with the Cosby Show etc if
I'd
> > had a TV growing up
>
so
> long?
>
18 actually... my parents wanted their children to grow up reading and
playing outside rather than watching TV. Mum was highly cynical about TV; I
think it was because she'd seen her own family sit down in front of the TV
and not talk to each other. And Dad's family was even worse. Hardly anyone
communicated there. To this day, I will not watch TV if I have visitors,
unless it's something specific we all want to watch (like M*A*S*H) because I
don't think watching TV is actually socialising. I do, however, love
watching certain shows, but I'm not the sort of person who can sit down for
hours on end in front of the TV watching just anything that's on. Oddly
enough, I love to read! I was lucky to have two brothers quite close in age
to play with, too.
Then we got a boarder, who brought his TV, and left it when he left. The
rest is history. Funnily enough, Mum got quite caught up in Star Trek like I
did after that point. Now Dad is the only one who isn't a trekkie. 5 out of
6 isn't bad! If she were alive today, I think she'd love watching my MASH
dvds. My little sis especially asked for me to bring them when I went to
visit her at Christmas. Funny, isn't it?
George Hiebert
"MarkO" <mar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1171644098....@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Ouch, I know just what you mean. Sort of like that final scene where Hawk
and Beej are in the shower and the final freeze frame shot has Hawk
revealing that he has also grown a mustache, again looking like an over
excited sheerleader.
MarkO
> "MarkO" <mark...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Ouch, I know just what you mean. Sort of like that final scene where Hawk
> and Beej are in the shower and the final freeze frame shot has Hawk
> revealing that he has also grown a mustache, again looking like an over
> excited sheerleader.
...Precisely. I often read that Gelbart said he never had to give
Alda a stage direction. Assuming (perhaps wrongly), that it was Alda
who chose to keep the straight face in the first scene we wrote about,
I could also assume (perhaps wrongly) that it was he who chose to act
like an over excited cheerleader in the other scenes we wrote about.
If, and that's a big if, if he was the one who decided how to react to
the comedic goings on in the instances discussed, I wonder why he lost
his comedic touch?
Esther
> Not many people I know had almost no tv exposure until 18 as
you
> did.
> I thought maybe it had something to do with people living in
> remote NZ and they didn't have tv's until sometime in the late 1970s.
<lol>
>
Har-dee-har har. Nah, we were just weird <lol> though I do know of other
families the same, even today. In remote areas, people tend to get pay tv
via satellite these days. About time you told me something about yourself,
don't you think? <cheeky grin>
George Hiebert
"MarkO" <mar...@yahoo.com> wrote
> ...Precisely. I often read that Gelbart said he never had to give
> Alda a stage direction. Assuming (perhaps wrongly), that it was Alda
> who chose to keep the straight face in the first scene we wrote about,
> I could also assume (perhaps wrongly) that it was he who chose to act
> like an over excited cheerleader in the other scenes we wrote about.
> If, and that's a big if, if he was the one who decided how to react to
> the comedic goings on in the instances discussed, I wonder why he lost
> his comedic touch?
That's one to ponder, isn't it. His comedic touch was perfect when Gelbart
was writing the scripts, but seemed to change completely in the post-Gelbart
years. It baffles me too.
Esther
> Do you like older men?
No! <lol> I hope this isn't the way you intend to continue...
Better bring it rapidly back to M*A*S*H I think.
<lol>
Mash...@gmail.com
> > George W. Bush (with Dick Cheney and co.) make Frank Burns look like a
>
> mealy-mouth, no-chin, sniveling wife-lover, and a laid-back moderate to> boot.
> > <lol>
>
> > Margaret to you-know-who: "You chinless chipmunk! Remove
> your
> > hand, or I'll zap you with my knee!"
>
> > The zingers the writers wrote for Margaret against that
> chinless
> > chipmunk were priceless!
>
> They were brilliant. I'm curious about the origin and meaning of the term
> 'mealy mouth'. I've only ever heard it on TV or read it, never heard it used
> in day-to-day life. What does it mean exactly? One minor thing I've been
> wondering about for some time!
>
> Someone said to me yesterday that you know that people are healthy mentally
> if they are able to laugh at themselves. Frank wasn't capable of that -
> weirdly enough, neither is my grandmother, who is incapable of any degree of
> insight because of a severe mental illness. On the other hand, Hawkeye,
> Trapper, BJ, Blake, Potter, Radar and Klinger (and Margaret after ending her
> fling with Frank) were very capable of doing so. Like Trapper, bemoaning the
> fact that Hawkeye had just given him a hard time about the still running out
> of gin, saying, "Our first fight." Or Klinger, while running around in
> women's clothes, well able to deal with any ridicule coming his way by
> snapping back with a witty retort.
I think Mash turn serious in the 7th season!
Mash...@gmail.com
I think Mash got serious in season 7!