From Hogan's Heroes to MASH -Marks and Reynolds.
David Brunt
> It's interesting to see that two key
> people from Hogan's- Gene Reynolds and Lawrence Marks-
> later turned up in MASH.
William Christopher also popped up in a few HH episodes...
ShandaRose
that Reynolds and Marks had written for Hogans Heroes. guess we learn
something new every day!
Shanda
Don't bother me ... I"m living happily ever after.
Mark O'Neill
> I know that many viewers find Hogan's Heroes embarrassing, though I
> personally found it very funny and would rate it as one of the great
> ensemble comedies in television. It's interesting to see that two key
> people from Hogan's- Gene Reynolds and Lawrence Marks- later turned up in
> don't know if Mr. Reynolds or Mr. Marks ever commented on any relationship
> between the 2 shows.
>
> Rich
Rich...When I EVER saw that TV Guide had rated Hogan's Heroes as one
of the worst shows...I wrote them a letter. Though Hogan's Heroes was
not MASH, and certainly wasn't a comedy-drama, I think it was every
bit as classy, well written and funny as MASH. Personally, I think
it's one of the top ten comedies of all time. This is due to the
writing, production values, and GREAT character actors. Bob Crane,
rest his soul, was great, as were Klink, Schultz and many of the guest
stars. AND, Elsig thinks I'm nuts when I comment about this, but when
I see reruns of Hogans Heroes, the color and rich look of the picture
is SO much better than modern day stuff. Elsig thinks studios haven't
tinkered with softening of the color in shows...but I know they did.
My keen, artistic(ok, nutty) eye sees it.
Elsig
It was criminal.
Criminal to trivialize the beasts that brought so much misery to mankind.
There were over 100,000,000 deaths in the 20th Century as a result of wars
Nazi Germany was respobsible for at least a fifth of that number.
Hogan's scripts could have been printed on Jesus' shroud and they would not
have been cleansed of the brutality of the real life Klinks and Schultzes.
LG
ShandaRose
forehead) ... and I know several people who went through the atrocities of the
nazi's, Jewish and Christian ... I was just looking at the comedy aspect of
the show rather than what really happened back then...
Shanda
I shall never look at HH the same way again...
Elsig
(I'll get off my soap box now.)
LG
George Perry
"Elsig" <el...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031011153031...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> It's hard to accept a comedy series that used the Holocaust as a trailer.
>
> (I'll get off my soap box now.)
Please don't.
Gilbert Gottfried (not everybody's cup of tea i know) used to do a great bit
about someone trying to sell the idea of Hogan's Heroes.
"A sitcom based in a Nazi POW camp? Brilliant! What else do you have?
Starving children? Mangled puppies? Stop, stop, you're killing me!"
(the bit was anti-HH, trust me.)
i think i read that the man who played Lebeau was actually imprisoned in a
POW camp. Weird.
George Hiebert
>
> (I'll get off my soap box now.)
>
> LG
I'm just wondering Larry, did you ever voice this opinion of the show with
Reynolds or Marks?
ShandaRose
through the holocaust and lost several members of his family. He said that he
could do hogans heroes because it was about a stalag instead of a concentration
camp, which he had been in. I want to get his new book published in 2002 --
Holocaust to Hogans Heroes -- which tells his life's story, basically.
Gene Reynolds' comments on the book were as follows:
"Robert Clary has come through hell with his humor, creativity, and incredible
morale intact. His book records a victory of compassion over hatred, laughter
over despair, artistic expression over agression."“Gene Reynolds, Director
just thought I'd share that bit of info
Shanda
Elsig
>
l just left it alone.
LG
Bob Flaminio
> It's hard to accept a comedy series that used the Holocaust as a
> trailer.
Seen "Life is Beautiful"? I would assert that that film proved that it
is possible to make a "comedy" about the Holocaust. Given that it is
possible, then the question becomes one of quality, rather than one of
insensitivity. On that terms, "Hogan's Heroes" succeeds famously. The
writing is consistently top-notch, and the acting is second to none.
(And of course, HH takes place in a POW camp, not a concentration camp;
an important distinction.)
I'm surprised, Elsig, that you don't see the obvious parallels between
Hogan's Heroes (a comedy that takes place during a war) and M*A*S*H (a
comedy that takes place during a war). While clearly HH is played more
for slapstick, the two shows still occupy a similar genre, IMHO.
--
Bob
Elsig
is possible to make a "comedy" about the Holocaust.
>
You'll forgive me, but that might have been the most repulsive film l have ever
seen. Comedy? The only thing l laughed at were the critics who hyped the film
to the skies. Were we really meant to laugh at what was going on in the
foreground to well-fed starring actors, while gaunt extras milled about in the
backgorund, waiting to go to the gas chamber?
>Given that it is possible, then the question becomes one of quality, rather
than one of insensitivity.
>
In the case of "The Pianist," yes, in the case of "Life Is Profitable,"
apparently l saw bad writing and acting everywhere you saw quality and
sensitivity.
>I'm surprised, Elsig, that you don't see the obvious parallels between
Hogan's Heroes (a comedy that takes place during a war) and M*A*S*H (a comedy
that takes place during a war). While clearly HH is played more for slapstick,
the two shows still occupy a similar genre, IMHO.
>
l'm sorry, Bob, l can't accept that premise.
If HH is the same as MASH because they are set in a wartime situation, then
"All Quiet on the Western Front" is very much like Abbott and Costello in "Buck
Privates."
On the other hand - if you're right and HH and MASH are all that similar,
consider this my suicide note.
LG
Paul Gadzikowski
> I know that many viewers find Hogan's Heroes embarrassing, though I
> personally found it very funny and would rate it as one of the great
> ensemble comedies in television. It's interesting to see that two key
> people from Hogan's- Gene Reynolds and Lawrence Marks- later turned up in
> MASH.
Some years ago I wrote on this newsgroup:
"Granted HOGAN'S HEROES was no M*A*S*H, but it occurs to me that
perhaps
it, or something like it, had to be before M*A*S*H could be. A secret
espionage base below a POW camp in WWII Germany is a premise of an
action
show, not a sitcom, and making it a sitcom must've been pretty daring
for
the time. Maybe it was the 'commercial for the Army' that Alda didn't
want
M*A*S*H to be, but it came a lot closer to M*A*S*H than, say, GOMER
PYLE
USMC or MCHALE'S NAVY, I'd say."
Another poster responded with incredulity that I should see any
relation, so I clarified:
"I think what I'm saying, to rephrase it, is that perhaps American tv
had
to have cleaned-up 'lovable' Nazis in the 60s before it could have
caricature 'spooky' McCarthyites in the 70s. An evolution thing. You
disagree? Then how would >you< trace M*A*S*H's creative geneology?"
The same party responded, "I don't, for one minute, believe that
there's anything in MASH's geneology that goes back to Hogan's
Heroes;" but then allowed, "One question that might be asked is
whether Bill Self, president of Fox, or Perry Lafferty, the head CBS
guy in LA, referenced the previous success of service comedies such as
Hogan and Bilko, in convincing CBS New York that MASH had a shot of
making it." There was no more followup to this branch of the thread
than a mention that Reynolds and Marks had each worked for both.
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman New cartoons most days
"Turtles all the way down!"
John Hatch
ever
> seen. Comedy? The only thing l laughed at were the critics who hyped the
film
> to the skies. Were we really meant to laugh at what was going on in the
> foreground to well-fed starring actors, while gaunt extras milled about in
the
> backgorund, waiting to go to the gas chamber?
I just wanted to say thanks, particularly to elsig, for one of the best
discussions this group has seen in a long time. I know I look at "Life is
Beautiful" and HH differently. I've appreciated all perspectives and
viewpoints.
Thanks again,
John
ShandaRose
>In the case of "The Pianist," yes, in the case of "Life Is Profitable,"
>apparently l saw bad writing and acting everywhere you saw quality and
>sensitivity.
Elsig -- did you like The Pianist or put it in the same genre as Life is
Beautiful?
I cried watching The Pianist -- there were parts I couldn't watch. I did tape
it to watch in the future. I thought Adrien Brody was absolutely terrific in
the movie.
Shanda
PS... never saw 'Life is Beautiful" so I can't comment on that movie.
nob...@junk.min.net
>It's hard to accept a comedy series that used the Holocaust as a trailer.
>(I'll get off my soap box now.)
My mother (who with her parents left Germany to escape the Nazis on the
"St. Louis" "voyage of the damned") always liked Hogan's Heroes, because
it made the Nazis look stupid.
Alan
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
**** Please use address alanh(at)min.net to reply via e-mail. ****
Posted using registered MR/2 ICE Newsreader #564 and eComStation 1.1
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Elsig
Beautiful?
>
screen for it showed the pain inflicted by the Nazi's so vivdly. Not the funny
Nazis, not the stupid or silly Hogan Nazis, but the real Nazi's that Polanksi
remembered from his brush with them.
There were times l couldn't look at the screen when l saw Life is Beautiful,
but for different reasons altogether.
LG
MOFTAP
portrayed the Nazi's as stupid, inept boobs who were played for fools by a
rag-tag band of daring allied POW's ... although I can certainly see how this
could be considered trivializing the war.
Sincerely,
Becca
Brad
"MOFTAP" <mof...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031012161809...@mb-m13.aol.com...
Having read all these discussions, I wonder how people assess Charlie
Chaplin's "The Great Dictator", a film made at the start of WW2.
--
Brad
Elsig
at the start of WW2.
>
This film was made in 1940, before the horror of what was going on in Nazi
concentration camps became generally known.
Incidentally, l don't want to be an 800 pound gorilla on this subject. l hope
that those who disagree will treat me as frankly and hinestly as you would any
75 year-old man who created your favorite television series.
LG
Abigail
<URL:news:20031012161809...@mb-m13.aol.com>:
++ The way I've always heard it, Hogan's Heroes was deemed "acceptable" because
++ portrayed the Nazi's as stupid, inept boobs who were played for fools by a
++ rag-tag band of daring allied POW's ... although I can certainly see how th
++ could be considered trivializing the war.
I've never seen many Hogan's Heroes episodes (I've never seen it in
Europe, and I when I saw some episodes while I was living in the USA I
could never stand them), but this portraying of the Nazi's as stupid,
inept "boobs" is one of the things that I really disliked about the
series.
Europe wasn't overrun by stupid people. The Nazi's weren't stupid, far
from that. If they had been stupid, the war would have been the jolly good
fun, and the POW camp had been like the boy scouts camp of Hogan's Heroes.
Sure, Hogan's Heroes and MASH are both sitcoms situated in a war zone.
But war is hell, and not a camping trip that went sour. MASH does give
me the impression of the former, while Hogan's Heroes gives me the
impression of the latter.
Abigail
Bob Flaminio
> Incidentally, l don't want to be an 800 pound gorilla on this
> subject. l hope that those who disagree will treat me as frankly and
> hinestly as you would any 75 year-old man who created your favorite
> television series.
Of course -- just because you created one of my favorite shows doesn't
mean I can't disagree with you at times; nor does it diminish my
admiration for your body of work.
--
Bob
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Sure, Hogan's Heroes and MASH are both sitcoms situated in a war zone.
: But war is hell, and not a camping trip that went sour. MASH does give
: me the impression of the former, while Hogan's Heroes gives me the
: impression of the latter.
HOGAN'S HEROES did have its introspective moments, few and far between as
they were, relative to M*A*S*H; not that I recall specific examples now.
But - relative to anything that went before?... I still think it may be
that a necessary intermediate step was taken with HOGAN'S HEROES, bridging
the gap between what came before such as F-TROOP and what came after. It
might have been better if it weren't an intermediate step with silly
Nazis, but I wish people could look past the silly Nazis to discuss this
other element.
JayZ755
>"St. Louis" "voyage of the damned") always liked Hogan's Heroes, because
>it made the Nazis look stupid.
>
>
>Alan
I think that there is a place in this world for both Schindler's List and
Hogan's Heroes.
Hogan's Heroes was made by people only 20 years removed from WWII and several
of whom had firsthand experience with Nazi Germany. Werner Klemperer was
Jewish and born in Germany; his family fled shortly after Hitler came to power.
Here's a quote from a website: "Klemperer, citing his Jewish heritage, was
sensitive to criticism from those who thought that comedy in a Nazi
prisoner-of-war camp was tasteless, and only agreed to play Klink if he could
portray him as a fool who lived in terror of his superiors and was constantly
outwitted by the prisoners." Klemperer had also been in "Judgment At
Nuremburg", which certainly dealt with the issue of the atrocities, if
non-grapically.
Other points:
As others mentioned, this was a POW camp, not a prison camp. The POW camps
were run by the German Army. The German Army weren't Nazis; the Nazis were the
political party. The Nazis were responsible for the SA, SS, and Gestapo. From
what I know the German Army was humane by comparison. Not trying to let anyone
off the hook here, but I have to judge on different levels.
Several movies had dealt with German WWII POW camps. Stalag 17 is the most
obvious influence on Hogan's Heroes. The Great Escape and Von Ryan's Express
were also set in POW camps. All had some elements of humor. It is true that
the Germans in those movies were all portrayed as serious oppostion, unlike
Hogan's Heroes.
There are two "fronts" to deal with when talking about Nazi Germany - the
horrors they inflicted on their own people and those they conquered, and the
military threat they represented to the USA and the rest of the Allies. Many
of the movies and TV shows contemporary to Hogan's Heroes were concentrating on
the secondary or "war" aspect. To be honest, that is why we were engaged in
the war in the first place. Had Germany been content with Austria militarily,
but continued persecuting its own people, it's hard to say if we ever would
have done anything about it.
Getting back specifically to Hogan's Heroes, the show made it clear that Klink
and Schultz were specifically incompetent and not representative of the entire
German Army. In a number of episodes Klink or Schultz are in danger of being
shipped off to another unit, and Hogan and company intervene so that they don't
get a competent commander who will figure out what's going on. In the "action"
portion of the plots things are played pretty straight. There was even an
episode where Hogan and company were part of a plot to kill Hitler.
Anyway, getting back to my main point: if all we have is Schindler's List, if
all we have is the grief, then somehow the evil the Nazis created has
triumphed. They've won; they've wrought their destruction. We can't take back
and shouldn't forget what happened, but the human spirit has to triumph over
the evil. Laughter is a part of that.
Jay
This space intentionally left blank.
Abigail
<URL:news:20031012224501...@mb-m21.aol.com>:
++
++ Other points:
++ As others mentioned, this was a POW camp, not a prison camp. The POW camps
++ were run by the German Army. The German Army weren't Nazis; the Nazis were
++ political party. The Nazis were responsible for the SA, SS, and Gestapo. F
++ what I know the German Army was humane by comparison.
That's a commonly believed myth. But not true. For instance, one of the
worst war crimes that happened in the Netherlands during WWII was the
deportation to prison camps of the entire male population of the village
of Putten, in the middle of the country. Just a handful of men survived
the war. This retaliation for some action done by a resistance group
wasn't performed by the SA, SS or Gestapo, but by the German regular army.
Furthermore, the army was full of Nazis. It was almost impossible to
become an officer without being a member of the Nazi party. (Just like
it was almost impossible to become an officer in the Soviet army without
being a member of the communist party).
Abigail
John Hatch
> become an officer without being a member of the Nazi party. (Just like
> it was almost impossible to become an officer in the Soviet army without
> being a member of the communist party).
I remember a great line from "Band of Brothers" that demonstrated the
dilemma Allied soldier's faced when entering Germany in 1945. Everyone they
met insisted they weren't a Nazi. Finally one soldier is fed up and says,
"How come I haven't met one Nazi in this whole country?" Who was an innocent
victim (if there is such a thing in a country that did what Nazi Germany
did) and who was a Nazi?
John
nob...@junk.min.net
>Incidentally, l don't want to be an 800 pound gorilla on this subject. l
>hope that those who disagree will treat me as frankly and hinestly as you
>would any 75 year-old man who created your favorite television series.
Of course we will.
Mark O'Neill
> Incidentally, l don't want to be an 800 pound gorilla on this subject. l hope
> that those who disagree will treat me as frankly and hinestly as you would any
> 75 year-old man who created your favorite television series.
>
> LG
WOW....I've been absent for a few. First of all, that last comment
is DELICIOUSLY funny. But...I had no idea Elsig felt that way about
Hogan's Heroes. As for me, I watch any documentaries on what the
nazis did to Jews and others with GREAT horror. It boggles my mind
and sickens me. And, I generally will not watch any related movies
because it's too awful a subject to watch.
As for Hogan's Heroes.....I just see it as the "good guys"
outsmarting the "bad guys". If any mention of the Holocaust was ever
uttered in the show, I'd never watch it. Although I enjoy Schultz...I
never consider him a lovable nazi. I consider him to be an
over-the-hill guy stuck where he is.
I can see Elsig's point most clearly. For instance, had I lived
through the Korean war and witnessed it's hideous atrocities...I doubt
I'd enjoy MASH...in the same way, at least. So, though my heart ACHES
a real ache any time I watch a documentary that shows how innocent
people were sent to chambers of death in nazi germany.....I guess I
see Hogan and his men beating the bad guys.
One final point. If I had been in either situation in real
life(Prisoner of war camp, MASH unit)..I fear that I would become so
depressed and discouraged. What I LIKE about both of these
shows(MASH's early years) is that ..especially MASH, they do NOT
ignore war, but show a way of getting through it that is most
positive. And I apply that to everyday life. It's like
saying.."look, things are awful, messy and horrific. But you know
what? We're not going to let it bring us down."
Alright, I'm getting too deep. Shut up, Mark.
Rick Shaw
>On 12 Oct 2003 21:15:41 -0400, PAUL GADZIKOWSKI <scar...@shell1.iglou.com> wrote:
>
>HOGAN'S HEROES did have its introspective moments, few and far between as
>they were, relative to M*A*S*H; not that I recall specific examples now.
>But - relative to anything that went before?... I still think it may be
>that a necessary intermediate step was taken with HOGAN'S HEROES, bridging
>the gap between what came before such as F-TROOP and what came after. It
>might have been better if it weren't an intermediate step with silly
>Nazis, but I wish people could look past the silly Nazis to discuss this
>other element.
I wonder if the show would have been successful had the creators not
used WWII as the setting, and instead just invented a fictitious
country that was at war with the rest of the world. Sure, viewers
would notice and point out the similarities to WWII, but perhaps the
public would have been a bit more receptive considering *this* war
never really happened. Plus, the creators/writers of the show would
always have that wall to hide behind when they're criticized for doing
a show like that.
...Eh, just speculating.
I used to watch the show in my early teen years. Even then I was aware
of just how farfetched, and even tasteless, the premise was.
Good thread.
Vicky LaDoucer
usually a very entertaining show at that. Its ok for one to enjoy it if
one indeed does.
JayZ755
>used WWII as the setting, and instead just invented a fictitious
>country that was at war with the rest of the world.
I don't think it would have been successful. It was a successful show as it
was.
JayZ755
>become an officer without being a member of the Nazi party. (Just like
>it was almost impossible to become an officer in the Soviet army without
>being a member of the communist party).
>
>Abigail
>
Hitler had to work with the existing Army, otherwise he couldn't have ramped up
so fast. I'm sure a lot of the officers in the German Army were officers
before Hitler came to power. Hitler needed them and he knew it.
Goering was Luftwaffe and was involved in war crimes. On the opposite pole
were the ones like Stauffacher who were involved in the assassination attempt.
Stauffacher I know was an officer prior to Hitler. The existing brass may well
have been "drafted" into the Nazi party; I have no idea. Rommel I think may
have been involved or supported the assassination too; I don't remember. I'll
quit now, as my WWII knowledge is probably less than my Hogan's Heroes
knowledge (not that I rely on HH for WWII info.)
ShandaRose
>Hitler had to work with the existing Army, otherwise he couldn't have ramped
>up
>so fast. I'm sure a lot of the officers in the German Army were officers
>before Hitler came to power. Hitler needed them and he knew it.
>
>Goering was Luftwaffe and was involved in war crimes. On the opposite pole
>were the ones like Stauffacher who were involved in the assassination
>attempt.
>Stauffacher I know was an officer prior to Hitler. The existing brass may
>well
>have been "drafted" into the Nazi party; I have no idea. Rommel I think may
>have been involved or supported the assassination too; I don't remember.
>Jay
>
all I know is they were a bunch of sick-minded monsters who all deserved to
endure what they dished out. A lady in my church was about 8 years old when
the nazi's stormed into their home, threw her to the ground, raped her (she
stated at least 4 or 5 raped her), breaking her pelvis and back ... because
they thought the family was harboring Jewish people in their home (they were a
Christian family)... I also dated a man for a while whose parents were in
concentration camps. The stories they told were too awful to even think about.
Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a
listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of
which have the potential to turn a life around. ~ Leo Buscaglia
George Perry
"JayZ755" <jay...@aol.comspamaway> wrote in message
news:20031014232107...@mb-m27.aol.com...
> >I wonder if the show would have been successful had the creators not
> >used WWII as the setting, and instead just invented a fictitious
> >country that was at war with the rest of the world.
>
> I don't think it would have been successful. It was a successful show as
it
> was.
Hail Fredonia!
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Incidentally, l don't want to be an 800 pound gorilla on this subject. l hope
: that those who disagree will treat me as frankly and hinestly as you would any
: 75 year-old man who created your favorite television series.
I confess I was thrown off some by your vehemence. I think, despite my
efforts not to strand you up on a pedestal, it distressed me to learn that
you too are human enough for there to be things which rob you of your
sense of humor.
Sorry, Larry. Hope it's not too lonely up there.
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman New cartoons most days
A loving God grants Mind for no reason but that it be used. The concept of
blasphemy is itself the only blasphemy.
George Perry
"PAUL GADZIKOWSKI" <scar...@shell1.iglou.com> wrote in message
news:3f8d8...@news.iglou.com...
> Elsig <el...@aol.com> wrote:
> : Incidentally, l don't want to be an 800 pound gorilla on this subject.
l hope
> : that those who disagree will treat me as frankly and hinestly as you
would any
> : 75 year-old man who created your favorite television series.
>
> I confess I was thrown off some by your vehemence. I think, despite my
> efforts not to strand you up on a pedestal, it distressed me to learn that
> you too are human enough for there to be things which rob you of your
> sense of humor.
>
> Sorry, Larry. Hope it's not too lonely up there.
i was taken in by elsig's "vehemence". i'd call it passion or humanity. i
certainly appreciate reading the writing of an incredibly talented and
intelligent person regarding one of the most ugly eras in history.
Laughs are important. Thinking and life are more important. It's a rare
individual who can not only do all but encourage us to do the same. elsig
is one of those people. Thank you sir!
Vicky LaDoucer
thoughfulness into a show way better than Alan Alda later did when the
latter took creative contol of the 4077th.
burd
"Richard Sauer" <chon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rDlib.548541$Oz4.481729@rwcrnsc54...
>
> Elsig wrote:
> > l thought The Pianist was magnificent. There were times l couldn't look
> at the
> > screen for it showed the pain inflicted by the Nazi's so vivdly. Not
the
> funny
> > Nazis, not the stupid or silly Hogan Nazis, but the real Nazi's that
> Polanksi
> > remembered from his brush with them.
> >
> > There were times l couldn't look at the screen when l saw Life is
> Beautiful,
> > but for different reasons altogether.
> >
>
Better
> than The Pianist or Schindler's List are two films-documentaries- by
Marcel
> Ophuls: "The Sorrow and the Pity" and "Hotel Terminus". Very disturbing
> films.
>
> To bring the subject back to MASH, it shouldn't surprise too many of you
to
> know that some Koreans do not find MASH particularly amusing- my wife
among
> them, though I think she's softening a bit because she laughs at Frank
> Burns. Obviously I love the show, but something that happened to me in
> Korea gave me a jolt. In 1988 I was on a field exercise in Paju- a small
> town, next to Munsan- a middle sized city near the DMZ. We had our tents
> set up on a hill where an ROK Army facility was located. There was a
little
> guard shack at the entrance to the camp. An older Korean gentleman worked
> there. In the early morning, I used to bring him some coffee. He never
said
> too much. One morning we were having our coffee ..and as the sun was
coming
> up I said, rather stupidly "There's North Korea".. He said "I hate North
> Korea. They shot my parents" And that was that. Later some of the KATUSAS
> (Korean Augmentation To US Army-South Koreans who serving with the
American
> Army in South Korea) told me that the North Koreans shot many of the
people
> in Paju and dumped their bodies in a mass grave.
>
> Rich
>
> I learned the other day that China is going to send troops into North
Korea, and then I fell back to sleep.
I hear this on the radio, when I can pick up some talk from the Mideast,
etc. Feedback?
burd
burd
"Elsig" <el...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031011123552...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> I have only one thing to say about this series.
>
> It was criminal.
>
> Criminal to trivialize the beasts that brought so much misery to mankind.
>
> There were over 100,000,000 deaths in the 20th Century as a result of wars
>
> Nazi Germany was respobsible for at least a fifth of that number.
>
> Hogan's scripts could have been printed on Jesus' shroud and they would
not
> have been cleansed of the brutality of the real life Klinks and Schultzes.
>
> LG
Could I make it through an atrocious war? Death lurking per second,
eating the gruel, walking and walking and rape and torture and lost love
and filth and scorn and hate
and a baby thrown up and... ( I think of the " good children who post here)
and the rags that I would wear forever until they were removed from me,
would I beg God to let me die. Or would I try to hang on to tell the world
what was going on. And then a young girl with all her dreams kept her diary
and told us. But still the smell, the horror, the acts of "crazed people"
wanting to take over
Life.
Could I hang in there God? Hang in there is a phrase that many of us use
today.
burd
ShandaRose
>today.
>
>burd
>
you're right ... and so many of us could never truly imagine the atrocities
going on in other people's lives around the world. For some, there IS nothing
to hang onto except God. And without that, there is nothing...
Shanda
Elsig
>
Only the hope that someday there might be a sitcom that showed the world that
my oppressors were silly, stupid men would keep me going.
LG
Vicky LaDoucer
couldn't add two and two. Not an expression about adding, either! They
were, in real life, stupid largely in the absence of compassion. HH
didn't depict them accurately. But it didn't have to. It wasn't a
documentary, unlike a couple of episodes of MASH (or portions of them
anyway). HH was just a comedy.
Elsig
>
And cancer is just an illness.
LG
Larry Coressel
> >HH was just a comedy.
> >
>
> And cancer is just an illness.
>
> LG
I had posted this somewhere in this topic, but it somehow got buried:
Not only do I agree with that, I agree with your earlier post that the
show was reprehensible. I thought it was stupid when I was 6 years
old, even if at that age I didn't fully understand the implications
its setting. If the show had been done as an anti-war statement, that
would be one thing. But it wasn't done that way. It was a stupid
cheesy sit-com with a WW2 concentration camp as the setting. It's not
like "The Producers," where these guys try to put on a god-awful show.
The creators of HH (and apparently some people out there in TV Land)
actually thought it WAS a good show.
I'm also glad to finally hear someone else cite "Life is Good" as
being the manipulative horseshit that it is. It's as bad as the
equally poorly conceived Robin Williams vehicle "Jacob the Liar."
Just my 2 or 3 cents worth...
LC
MOFTAP
>
>
It didn't get buried. I read it the first time you posted it. This is the
second time I've read it.
Sincerely,
Becca
Vicky LaDoucer
Or the important equivalent and Ben Casey was a positively repulsive
show for showing medical work as bloodless. And the way none of that Dr.
Benny's patients ever had, say, constipation. Lousy show! The disservice
done to the millions of unknowing viewers. The horror never leaves my
mind. And worse than HH was Casey becuse American doctors still existed
in the 1960's and later, so unlike the very extinct Nazi Germany. Now
why I personally feel foolish. To think, while visiting Hollywood, I
thought I was coming down with a cold and my first reaction was not to
call Vince Edwards. I'm so ashamed! Stupid me, huh? Not!
Do you remember one ep of MASH when Hawk and the gang were going to
watch a film. And Maj. Burns gets all excited and joyously tells a
disapproving Capt. Pierce about the great viewing experience they are
about to undertake and for that the former gets told "Frank, don't be
childish". You should drop the name and apply that statement to
yourself. Just my two cents.
quincywagstaff
> Incidentally, l don't want to be an 800 pound gorilla on this subject. l hope
> 75 year-old man who created your favorite television series.
>
I appreciate your saying this and respect you for it. Since you've
asked, I shall restate what I posted last summer, the last time this
subject came up here (welcoming the opportunity to correct my typing):
"A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he
resents."
-G.C. Lichtenberg
Leon,
I respect your sensitivity but find it misplaced. Humor is not a
devaluation; it is an acknowledgement of inconcongruity. It is
precisely for this reason that black comedy has been the most
important western literary form of the second half of the twentieth
century. Despite precedents stretching from Chaucer and Rabelais to
Chaplin and James Joyce, the works of Heller and Roth, Mr. Mike and
South Park, and, yes, M*A*S*H, have been criticized for finding humor
in subjects that traditionally have been thought to be off limits for
comedy. Comedy is a balm, a cry of outrage and a stance of defiance
against it. While Hogan's Heroes surely is not the best example of any
of this, it should not be condemned for its subject matter. Viktor
Frankl, the existential psychologist, did extensive interviews with
concentration camp survivors. One of the revelations he brought forth
is that there was camp humor among the inmates. When you think about
it, there really had to be. How else could one endure? To find the
humor in one's situation is to keep perspective, to strike a balance
between thinking and feeling. As the character of Hawkeye
illustrated, it is sanity itself. I am a New Yorker. The September
26th issue of The Onion gave me my first belly laugh in three weeks.
I shall always be grateful for it.
Peace,
Tony
I shall add that I do not accept the premise that there are topics one
can't laugh about; that there is immense value in reducing to
ludicrousness that which most threatens you, as Chaplin and Mel Brooks
did more effectively; and that there is no danger of any sane person
belieivng that the Nazis were the ineffectual boobs portrayed in the
series. While it is not one of my favorite shows, I hold it to be a
proper piece of entertainment for its time, inasmuch as its viewers
were well aware of the truth; the Nazis were not a small handful of
folks engaging in abberant behavior but rather the prime example of
what human beings are capable of doing to other human beings. As long
as we try to hold Naziism apart from human experience (ie, by saying,
"you can write comedy about any other experience, but not this one,")
we fail to acknowledge and deal with it, socially and emotionally. I
understand the impulse to not want to accept this, but it seems to me
counterproductive.
Hoping I've made sense to someone,
T-
Elsig
Please understand: l am not one of those who say that some subjects are not to
be dealt with in it a comic fashion.
l (just I, just me) simply find myself <not> laughing at certain subjects.
l just have to see a swaztika on stage, in all of its red, black and white
vividness and the chilling effect goes straight to my funny bone.
l'm well aware of how much gallows humor there was in the concentration camps.
Had l had the tragic misfortune to be sent to one of them, l am sure l would
have among those who participated in that sort of verbal defense. Nor having
the luxury of that experience, it is totally impossible for me to laugh at (or
along with) those who did.
LG
(And how niced it is to be able to sign a message with a name instead of an
assigned number.)
ShandaRose
>l just have to see a swaztika on stage, in all of its red, black and white
>vividness and the chilling effect goes straight to my funny bone.
>
oooh I'm with you there, elsig... Another thing that send chills up my spine
is a confederate flag (sorry those of you in the south) ... for some reason,
here in mid-Michigan, there are some teens who think it's "cool to sport that
flag on their cars and trucks. I look at them and want to ring their necks.
One teen who I work with who thinks it's cool asked me one day why I hated it
so. I said "well for one thing, I'm part Native American on my dad's side, my
great grandfather on my mother's side was Jewish, my daughter's father is 1/2
black, and ANY sort of oppressive symbol should be outlawed because this is
2003, not 1803 and we should know better." Hopefully the kid figured it out...
ESolomonso
>Date: 10/17/2003 11:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>>HH was just a comedy.
>>
>
>And cancer is just an illness.
>
>LG
Terrific analogy. Really drives the point.
I, for one, also used to say HH was just a comedy. I may have to re-think this
out.
Eddie
======================================
This is a press conference! The last thing I want to do is answer a lot of
questions!
General Maynard M. Mitchell
Vicky LaDoucer
in the 1960's could guess Nazism would still mean so much to so many by
the 21st century. They might have figured Nazism was a dying subject. It
should have been then and dead as a subject now. Something is keeping
this awful, ancient civilization of Nazi Germany alive in people's
memories.
Furthermore, Elsig is wrong. HH was just a tv show. They never said it
was a documentary. There was no Klink, Col. Hogan, Sgt. Schultz. Just
make believe characters they all honestly were. And would you all agree
with Elsig so much if you didn't know he created one of the greatest tv
shows in history? I wonder who wrote Hawkeye's line "Frank, don't be
childish". Elsig or someone else? Odd if it was one of Elsig's solely
written eps that that strong line appeared in.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: I wonder who wrote Hawkeye's line "Frank, don't be
: childish". Elsig or someone else? Odd if it was one of Elsig's solely
: written eps that that strong line appeared in.
The episode referenced by that quote was from season five, after Larry'd
left.
(It's also being used consistently out of context. After Frank leaves the
room, Hawkeye starts jumping up and down and chrotling, "A movie! We're
gonna have a movie!" or some such. For what it's worth.)
MOFTAP
> They might have figured Nazism was a dying subject. It
>should have been then and dead as a subject now.
So Nazism should be dead as a subject? Those who fail to learn from history
are doomed to repeat it.
Something is keeping
>this awful, ancient civilization of Nazi Germany alive in people's
>memories.
Hmm, I wonder what that could be?
>Furthermore, Elsig is wrong. HH was just a tv show. They never said it
>was a documentary.
Just a guess here, but I think Elsig probably knows the difference between a TV
show and documentary.
> And would you all agree
>with Elsig so much if you didn't know he created one of the greatest tv
>shows in history?
If you've been following this thread, you would see that there were a number of
people who disagreed with Elsig.
> I wonder who wrote Hawkeye's line "Frank, don't be childish". Elsig or
someone else? Odd if it was one of Elsig's solely
>written eps that that strong line appeared in.
Do you imply that Elsig has been childish in this discussion?
Sincerely,
Becca
Vicky LaDoucer
the Nazis. It was a hateful affair and you know what? Its the day before
the day before yesterday's news. I'm sick of hearing about long extinct,
hateful, bigoted practices against humankind like they still happen now.
Whatever happened to the saying "Let bygones be bygones". We need that
saying back.
And on another point, no I don't feel Elsig is being childish for one
reason and one reason only. He knew and worked with HH veteran Gene
Reynolds. Somehow that gives Elsig a right to more personal feelings and
insights into the philosophy behind HH. But the rest of us here didn't
work with Gene or anyone else from HH. We just viewed the show on tv. It
should be nothing than a totally fictional tv show to us. Anyone of us
not Elsig who says HH was more thn a tv show is being rather childish.
And I add this. You want to know or teach to someone else what Nazi
Germany was really like? Fine! Go read real books on it. Or write real
books on it. Or rent documentary videos or dvd's on it from the video
story. But leave all the people who wrote fictional movies, tv shows,
plays, or books on the Second World War, and their work on it, alone.
Ficional writers create their own make believe worlds for their work.
Its their right to do so and as fiction it isn't supposed to be true
anyway.
George Perry
"Vicky LaDoucer" <Lado...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24429-3F9...@storefull-2115.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Somehow Moftap I do not think we'll all turn into bigots if we forget
> the Nazis. It was a hateful affair and you know what? Its the day before
> the day before yesterday's news. I'm sick of hearing about long extinct,
> hateful, bigoted practices against humankind like they still happen now.
> Whatever happened to the saying "Let bygones be bygones". We need that
> saying back.
i seriously hope that you are a very bad troll.
MOFTAP
>i seriously hope that you are a very bad troll.
>
Thanks, George, my sentiments exactly.
Sincerely,
Becca
Vicky LaDoucer
other bad people and things like him so long gone still getting so much
attention. 58 years gone now is the Third Reich. "Gone", with a small
"g" is the keyword with the number/letter "58" and "years" close
seconds.
Larry Coressel
> I'm sick of hearing about long extinct,
> hateful, bigoted practices against humankind like they still happen now.
Yeah. Sure. That stuff NEVER happens anymore...
LC
Larry Coressel
"There's a little Frank Burns in all of us..."
-Larry Linville
LC
Larry Coressel
Thanks, I just realized that there are two topics on the same topic!
My oversight, sorry.
LC
Vicky LaDoucer
And he didn't kill millions of Jewish folks just as Casey didn't.
And for anyone who watches Hogan's Heroes in the future a word of
advice. Try to think that all the German officers you see in the flesh,
on your screen, in that make believe Germany are show offs. Meaning none
of them just about ever really talk to Goebbels or Hitler or Georing or
Himmler. They just speak to aids of aids of one of these big bad
foursome and Burkehalter (impossible name) and Hawkstetter, really are
not very high ranking or important in the German whatever, and they just
sort of dress up the truth and pretend they just spoke to Hitler or some
other Nazi biggie. Hey, no actor ever actually played Hitler on HH,
unless you count Larry Hovis pretending to be Andrew Carter pretending
to be Hitler. So if you imagine that many of those fictional German
chararcters are semi-faking those contacts with the reallife Nazi
biggies then HH is even more fictional than it seems to the more
untrained eye.
Vicky LaDoucer
needed some anti-Hitler lessons. But either way 21st century Americans
certainly don't. A person trying bigotry in the 50 states today will get
called names and get civil rights groups after them. Maybe even a CR
group representiing folks he or she didn't even offend. The bigoted
individual may never once, in all their deserved and undeserved
persecution, even hear the name "Hitler" or the word "Nazi". And those
are the facts.
Abigail
in <URL:news:24955-3F9...@storefull-2113.public.lawson.webtv.net>:
++ I'm not, Mr. Perry. I'm just plain and simply tired of Hitler talk. And
++ other bad people and things like him so long gone still getting so much
++ attention. 58 years gone now is the Third Reich. "Gone", with a small
++ "g" is the keyword with the number/letter "58" and "years" close
++ seconds.
The Third Reich maybe gone, but here in Europe, we haven't finished
dealing with the aftermath of WW II yet. Right now, there's a trial
going on in Germany against someone who is accused of commit warcrimes.
We aren't done yet with WW II, and if we look what's going on in former
Yugoslavia, we haven't even finished WW I.
Abigail
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: Mr. Coressel, maybe (or maybe not) the folks in Kosovo four years ago
Two words: Matthew Shepherd.
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com since 1995
http://members.iglou.com/scarfman New cartoons most days
"And to my dog, a god"
Elsig
now is the Third Reich..
>
And some nearly 2,000 years after the fall of the Roman Empire and some people
still go around talking about just one guy that got crucified.
LG
David Brunt
George Perry
"David Brunt" <dv...@davidbrunt.fsnet.co.u.k> wrote in message
news:bn14gf$mrf$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Is there such a thing as a bad publicity agent?
JayZ755
>>
>>
>
>Is there such a thing as a bad publicity agent?
>
You never hear about the bad publicity agents.
Jay
This space intentionally left blank.
Mark O'Neill
Hmmmm.....I usually "get" things...but must admit......I'm missing something here.
Parry
Well Hitler was nearly 60 years ago and Vicky said we shoudl stop talking
about him
Elsig said well someone was crucified over 2000 years ago and we still talk
about him?
Jesus, it ain't that hard to figure out :D
--
Parry!
Prince Of The Potato People
http://www.atomichounddog.co.uk
ESolomonso
>Date: 10/21/2003 5:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Well Hitler was nearly 60 years ago and Vicky said we shoudl stop talking
>about him
The folks who have AOL will have a hard time not talking and thinking about
hitler, especially when on today's "Welcome" screen, is a story of a neo-nazi
running for mayor in a town in Ohio. I believe that the vast majority of people
who live there are not followers of this person.
The media, and shows like 60 Minutes and others, are always running these kinds
of stories. Even AMW talks about neo-nazis when they're looking for someone.
A priest was arrested about 2 weeks ago, and they found nazi paraphernalia in
his apartment. I would also like to stop talking about, but I do not want to
forget it.
George Perry
"Parry" <dgpa...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:%Uhlb.1892$Rq.16...@news-text.cableinet.net...
Vicky makes excellent points. Viet Nam happened a generation ago (or did it
ever happen at all?), and just because a President got kicked out of office,
the economy tanked and there was an energy shortage, there is no need at all
to remember, let alone talk about it. It will NEVER happen again!
Just because The United States bombed Iraq into the stoneage in 1991 for no
good reason, in order to secure the continued flow of oil is no reason to
remember or talk about it. It will NEVER happen again!
There is no need to talk about incarceration rates either. Just because the
vast majority of US prisons inmates are black, this is no reason at all to
consider the history and economic status of African Americans and their
ability to climb the social ladder, let alone get a fair trial. It's also
ridiculous to compare the incarceration rate of The United States with South
Africa's, or even China's. North Korea and Iran are about to have the bomb,
these people must be dealt with!
The Big Three automakers got lazy and thousands of living wage jobs were
lost in North America. However, this has nothing at all to do with recent
reports that 200,000 well-paying IT jobs were shipped overseas last year.
We should all just buy a new SUV with a built in DVD and buzz through
national parks, Indian Reserves and the like. The kids are better off
watching Disney videos than they are having to deal with that liberal
nonsense about history and the environment.
USA USA USA!
Those people just bombed us on 9/11 because they are jealous!
Columbine never happened, don't talk about it.
Jonestown never happened, don't talk about it.
The Easter Bunny is more real than Karen Silkwood, don't mention her name.
Charlie Manson was ages ago, it will never happen again. No need to try to
prevent future nutcases.
Waco? What-O?
Oklahoma City? Rings a bell. Didn't one of the Friends honeymoon there?
John Martin
>> I'm just plain and simply tired of Hitler talk. And other bad people and
>things like him so long gone still getting so much attention.. 58 years gone
>now is the Third Reich..
>>
That may be history. But its important. And its important because it
gets repeated.
Cambodia
El Salvador
Chile
Bosnia.
Rwanda
Indonesia
Israel/Palestine
etc.
People killing other people just because of where they come from. Its
still plain stupid.
Vicky LaDoucer
in my life. I have an uncle who still acts like its 1970. He talks about
the US's involvement in Vietnam and how he thinks it was wrong and all
types of things the hippies from that very year talked about (save for
"the don't trust anyone over 30" bit). The guy looks like a relic from
the stone age doing so, I must add.
Your remarks on the first gulf war are not totally correct but I'm all
for discussing that early 90's conflict. it's well under 20 years old.
Anything more than 20 years gone just not that big a deal anymore.
Anything 30 years or more gone, forget it. Life works better when you
look ahead. Not back. Especially so far back.
Vicky LaDoucer
Neo-Nazi running for mayor other than what've you've written in your
thread. But I'll say this. It just might be all this Hitler talk by so
many Americans that caused that man to strive for immortality-infamy
like Hitler is seemingly getting. That infamy Hitler's memory gets
causes many a kook to try to imitate the (really) former German
dictator. Maybe that's the case with the Ohio candidate. Maybe not!
Abigail
in <URL:news:13855-3F9...@storefull-2114.public.lawson.webtv.net>:
++ George your remarks about forgeting the Vietnam War have a certain irony
++ in my life. I have an uncle who still acts like its 1970. He talks about
++ the US's involvement in Vietnam and how he thinks it was wrong and all
++ types of things the hippies from that very year talked about (save for
++ "the don't trust anyone over 30" bit). The guy looks like a relic from
++ the stone age doing so, I must add.
++
++ Your remarks on the first gulf war are not totally correct but I'm all
++ for discussing that early 90's conflict. it's well under 20 years old.
++ Anything more than 20 years gone just not that big a deal anymore.
++ Anything 30 years or more gone, forget it. Life works better when you
++ look ahead. Not back. Especially so far back.
People who don't look back will make the same mistakes over and over
again.
The Korean conflict is over 50 years old - you shouldn't look back
and watch MASH.
Abigail
ShandaRose
>People who don't look back will make the same mistakes over and over
>again.
>
>The Korean conflict is over 50 years old - you shouldn't look back
>and watch MASH.
>
>
>Abigail
*smirk*
Yes, we must look to the future, but we must learn from the past. Hopefully,
we are now learning that we can't just march into other countries without true
cause and expect everything to be hunky-dory! (egad did I just say that?)
We can say "Peace On Earth" ... we can sing about it, preach about it or pray
about it; but if we have not internalized the mythology to make it happen
inside of us, then it will not be .... Betty Shabazz
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: el...@aol.com (Elsig) wrote in message news:<20031020123918...@mb-m24.aol.com>...
:> And some nearly 2,000 years after the fall of the Roman Empire and some people
:> still go around talking about just one guy that got crucified.
: Hmmmm.....I usually "get" things...but must admit......I'm missing something here.
I being the newsgroup's other self-proclaimed cartoonist, I have to say
you make me cringe.
Elsig
LG
Elsig
>
Looking ahead, without looking back, is using only one eye.
LG
ShandaRose
>you make me cringe.
>
Mark is one also, Paul....
great... two cartoonists running amok, with a comedy writer in their midsts!
No wonder I get such pleasure reading these posts LOL
Shanda
who just missed out on 1/2 of my beauty sleep
Parry
> The Korean conflict is over 50 years old - you shouldn't look back
> and watch MASH.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
:>I being the newsgroup's other self-proclaimed cartoonist, I have to say
:>you make me cringe.
:>
:
: Mark is one also, Paul....
Mark and I are who I meant. Are there more than two?
ShandaRose
>:>I being the newsgroup's other self-proclaimed cartoonist, I have to say
>:>you make me cringe.
>:>
>:
>: Mark is one also, Paul....
>
>Mark and I are who I meant. Are there more than two?
>
>
>
>Paul Gadzikowski,
oops, sorry, Paul ... I didn't see the word "other" LOL (I think I was still
half asleep when I wrote that)
Shanda
ESolomonso
>Date: 10/21/2003 10:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Eddie, to quote fictional Sgt. Schultz "I know nothing" about that Ohio
>Neo-Nazi running for mayor other than what've you've written in your
>thread.
Neither did I until I signed on yesterday.
>But I'll say this. It just might be all this Hitler talk by so
>many Americans that caused that man to strive for immortality-infamy
>like Hitler is seemingly getting.
How are people supposed to just "forget" what he was responsible for, or not
talk about it, when the History channel runs their WW II shows, which seem to
me to be nothing but "hitler, a life in review?"
>That infamy Hitler's memory gets
>causes many a kook to try to imitate the (really) former German
>dictator.
And there are many. But what about MASH? There are references to hitler.
Hawkeye mentions him at least twice and Potter recalls the nazis.
Sad as it is, it's a part of history that was just too big to simply not talk
about it. References are everywhere.
Fshrly834
>>>
>>
>>And cancer is just an illness.
>>
>>LG
>
>Terrific analogy. Really drives the point.
>I, for one, also used to say HH was just a comedy. I may have to re-think
>this
>out.
There's nothing to "re-think." Hogan's Heroes was not great television, but
it was funny. It is not politically correct by 2003 standards, but at the time
it was first aired, it was viewed differently.
I had an uncle who had to deal with real life Nazis while he served in
Patton's army during the war. His take on the show back then (despite the bad
experiences he had during the real war) was that he enjoyed seeing the Nazis
portrayed as stupid and always losing to the prisoners.
Of course, times change and people like to hold up a different standard to
the shows of yesteryear. Amos and Andy was a popular show way-back-when but it
is considered very taboo these days. You won't see Disney's Song of the South
on the video shelves, either. Not long ago, a planned Charlie Chan film
festival was canceled due to the fact that the title role was played by
non-Chinese actors. Fans of the Chan movies were disappointed, but hey,
political correctness was served.
Hogan's Heroes was a television program. Like all such programs, there is
always the option of changing the channel or turning the TV off. That choice
is taken away when political correctness turns into censorship and the show is
no longer available to its fans.
George Perry
"Fshrly834" <fshr...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20031023203032...@mb-m19.news.cs.com...
> Hogan's Heroes was a television program. Like all such programs, there
is
> always the option of changing the channel or turning the TV off. That
choice
> is taken away when political correctness turns into censorship and the
show is
> no longer available to its fans.
Censorship? Stroll down to your local library and see how many books about
Malcolm X or The Black Panthers are available.
While you are at it, try to find some Jello Biafra albums.
"This ain't TV, this is worse!"
Fshrly834
>is
>> always the option of changing the channel or turning the TV off. That
>choice
>> is taken away when political correctness turns into censorship and the
>show is
>> no longer available to its fans.
>
>Censorship? Stroll down to your local library and see how many books about
>Malcolm X or The Black Panthers are available.
>While you are at it, try to find some Jello Biafra albums.
(As if I'd want to.)
And this has what exactly to do with Hogan's Heroes? Not a damn thing.
It's just more liberal hand-wringing.
ShandaRose
> And this has what exactly to do with Hogan's Heroes? Not a damn thing.
>It's just more liberal hand-wringing.
>
than conservatives who think the next great mayor in Idaho should be the
founder of aryan...
My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, soft music.
Vladimir Nabokov (1899 - 1977)
Fshrly834
>>It's just more liberal hand-wringing.
>>
>well yea, but I'd rather speak with liberals who find Hogans Heroes offensive
>than conservatives who think the next great mayor in Idaho should be the
>founder of aryan...
I didn't see anything in the thread about electing a Nazi to office.
For those of us who can stick to the subject (I hear Ritalin helps), we were
discussing Hogan's Heroes, not hypothetical situations.
Vicky LaDoucer
he thinks so), loves Hogan's Heroes. Some liberals actually enjoy the
program and totally fail to find it offensive. In short, don't think
all libs who know of HH hate it. And on the flip side, there are
conservatives who hate the show for the same reason you do. Shanda this
threadmeands you.
ShandaRose
see elsig's point about making light of the situation in Europe in WWII for the
Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, and anyone else mr. h. found offensive.
As some others have noted about people they know who went through the
holocaust, I too know some people. One is a woman who was 8 when her home was
ransacked by nazi's and she was brutally raped and thrown around and bears the
crippling scars to this day... all because the nazis thought they were
harboring jews.
Shanda
Vicky LaDoucer
eight if it still bothers five decades plus + some years later. Who
knows maybe she dressed that story up. Back to HH, it was a tv show
comedy not real life. Not to be taken seriously was HH.
Vicky LaDoucer
scars f being raped and brutally beaten. Hmmm. Well you know President
John Kennedy claimed he injured his back bad while on a PT boat in the
South Pacific. But other sources say he actually injured it bad while
playing sports in school. We know for sure he had a very bad back. Lucky
he could walk at all. But whose to say for sure where he actually got a
bad back? The possibilities are half limitless. This lady you know who
you say has crippling, raped scars. Too bad, if actually so. But who
besides you and her says it was really the Nazis who gave her them?
Maybe it was actually her father, brother, uncle, next door neighbor,
first cousin, or so on. Like where Kennedy got a bad back. the
possibilities are half limitless.
ShandaRose
>you say has crippling, raped scars. Too bad, if actually so. But who
>besides you and her says it was really the Nazis who gave her them?
>Maybe it was actually her father, brother, uncle, next door neighbor,
>first cousin, or so on. Like where Kennedy got a bad back. the
>possibilities are half limitless.
>
remembers the incident even better than the young 50+ old woman herself.
Peace...
Shanda
history is the witness that testifies to the passing of time; it illumines
reality, vitalizes memory, provides guidance in daily life, and brings us
tidings of antiquity... Cicero
Vicky LaDoucer
this to this at least 66 year old lady. But 58 years minimum is still a
very, very long time ago. It must have happened to her no later than
1945, that's where I deduce her minimum age from.