What does Margaret see in Frank?
Kelley P Swilley
character for much the same reason I found Charles fascinating later on:
I'm not sure from one episode to the next whether I'm going to like or
dislike her. Her all-Army uber-patriotism understandably infuriates
Hawkeye and Trapper (and in season 4, Hawkeye and BJ), but most of the
time she's good at her job, and she does seem to care about the wounded.
Even in the earliest episodes, Margaret was never as thoroughly hateful
as Frank. That's why I've always been a bit puzzled as to exactly why she
would find him so appealing. Here are the reasons I'm confused:
1. Frank is a racist. Occasionally Margaret shows signs of racism herself
("these people have no espectray"), but the difference between her and
Frank on this point is illustrated sharply in "The Kids." Margaret helps
out when Meg Cratty's orphans arrive at the 4077th, and when they depart,
she holds an orphan close in her arms and kisses her goodbye. Frank
expresses nothing but disgust for the children, proclaiming "I just
washed!" whenever any of them get too close to him. It seems odd to me
that Margaret would see him behave this way and still find him attractive.
2. Frank is a lousy surgeon. Margaret doesn't respect Hawkeye and
Trapper's unmilitary behavior, but she knows a good surgeon when she sees
one. Margaret may be turned on by Frank's militariness, but wouldn't
incompetence be a bit of a turn-off for her?
3. Frank doesn't give a damn about the wounded. One of the moments in
which I have the hardest time with Margaret is when Frank expresses this
outright to Hawkeye and BJ -- "I'm sick of hearing about the wounded!" --
and she doesn't seem the least bothered by this. There are plenty of
moments, even in the Trapper/Blake years, when Margaret expresses some
disagreement with Frank (although the writers get plenty of humorous
mileage out of her being Frank's mouthpiece), and I have never, on any
episode, seen any sign that she could care less about the wounded. Often
her hard-ass behavior springs precisely from her concern for the wounded
(i.e. her tough, unsympathetic treatment of Nurse Cooper, pretty darn
justified from Margaret's perspective). But she hears Frank say this, and
she doesn't react? I would think this one thing would serve as a
reflection of an insurmountable character flaw in Frank.
So Frank's a racist, a bad surgeon, and a heartless cad -- and on
top of that, he's nothing great to look at. Yet before she hooks up with
Donald, Margaret can't get enough of him. Why?
The most I can figure is that Hot Lips really needs sex, and she
can't get an affair started with someone as disgracefully unmilitary as
Hawkeye or Trapper because the Army is just too important to her. She
links up with Frank because he's the only one who shares her attitude
toward all things Army. This seems to be the only thing that really binds
Margaret to Frank. Any ideas?
ArtVandelay2000
Margaret needed to dominate her man, and Frank needed a woman to dominate him
(remember the home movie of his wedding?). They filled each other's needs.
As the series (and Margaret's personality) evolved, her need to be dominant
seemed to wane; with both Donald and Scully, she was much less domineering.
Elsig
>
None that are as good as yours.
Terrific analysis of Hot Lips - excuse me - Margaret.
LG
CountryChick4077
acts like he's really G.I., he isn't. "What does Margaret see in Frank?" is
REALLY a good question...
--SaRa
SaRa and Lilith's M*A*S*H 4077 Page:
http://hometown.aol.com/countrychick4077/index.html
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: 2. Frank is a lousy surgeon. Margaret doesn't respect Hawkeye and
: one. Margaret may be turned on by Frank's militariness, but wouldn't
: incompetence be a bit of a turn-off for her?
Hence the dichotomy one percieves between early Frank Burns and late Frank
Burns. Early-frank was not incompetent.
: The most I can figure is that Hot Lips really needs sex, and she
: can't get an affair started with someone as disgracefully unmilitary as
: Hawkeye or Trapper because the Army is just too important to her. She
: links up with Frank because he's the only one who shares her attitude
: toward all things Army. This seems to be the only thing that really binds
: Margaret to Frank. Any ideas?
I think you've put it very succintly. Though I think it's arguable that
Margaret's apparent addiction to sex is less an actual physical
or psychological addiction than just what an Army brat of her day and age
will have grown up believing is the way a single woman behaves.
--
Paul Gadzikowski, scar...@iglou.com
http://members.iglou.com.scarfman
On my website there is not now nor has there ever been anything
referencing anyone wanting to be or wanting to marry a millionaire.
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: You've made some very good points. One aspect of their personalities was that
: Margaret needed to dominate her man, and Frank needed a woman to dominate him
: (remember the home movie of his wedding?). They filled each other's needs.
B.J. once said they barely made up a whole person between them.
--
Paul Gadzikowski http://members.iglou.com/scarfman: The Daily Cartoons
- DOCTOR WHO, STAR TREK, BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER,
scar...@iglou.com M*A*S*H - King Arthur - Archy the Cockroach -
New cartoons weekly
George Hiebert
Kelley P Swilley <swi...@mail.auburn.edu> wrote in message
news:8a9m16$7u2$1...@ultranews.duc.auburn.edu...
> The most I can figure is that Hot Lips really needs sex, and she
> can't get an affair started with someone as disgracefully unmilitary as
> Hawkeye or Trapper because the Army is just too important to her. She
> links up with Frank because he's the only one who shares her attitude
> toward all things Army. This seems to be the only thing that really binds
> Margaret to Frank. Any ideas?
You hit the nail on the head, it was all about sex.
Aaron Baugher
> 2. Frank is a lousy surgeon. Margaret doesn't respect
> Hawkeye and Trapper's unmilitary behavior, but she knows a
> good surgeon when she sees one. Margaret may be turned on
> by Frank's militariness, but wouldn't incompetence be a
> bit of a turn-off for her?
I've always assumed that the put-downs of Frank's ability
were greatly exaggerated. For one thing, how would they
have kept up a 97-98% success rate with 1/4 of their
surgical staff being incompetent? Also, if he were really
that bad, the other surgeons would have tried to keep him
from working on anyone. He was probably not as spectacular
as the other surgeons, and not as committed to doing a great
job every time, but surely not really incompetent.
Aaron
--
Aaron Baugher - abau...@adams.net - Coatsburg, IL, USA
Extreme Systems Consulting - http://esc.adams.net/esc/
CGI, Perl, Java, and Linux/Unix Administration
JayZ755
>were greatly exaggerated. For one thing, how would they
>have kept up a 97-98% success rate with 1/4 of their
>surgical staff being incompetent? Also, if he were really
>that bad, the other surgeons would have tried to keep him
>from working on anyone. He was probably not as spectacular
>as the other surgeons, and not as committed to doing a great
>job every time, but surely not really incompetent.
>
>
>Aaron
I guess if Frank had been a "good guy" but still been less talented he probably
would have just passed on the tougher cases to his mates. Frank's problems
were that he reacted badly when he made a mistake, or if he didn't react badly
his prior reputation earned him less sympathy than someone else.
An interesting point to ponder is whether, in real life war time circumstances,
a doctor who wasn't holding his end up enough would be unpopular with his peers
due to the pressure-packed situation. The doctors in the TV show who were good
surgeons were good guys on the surface and/or deep down. Perhaps the movie's
portrayl, where the heroes weren't particularly nice, is more realistic.
Jay
This space intentionally left blank.
Aaron Baugher
> An interesting point to ponder is whether, in real life
> war time circumstances, a doctor who wasn't holding his
> end up enough would be unpopular with his peers due to the
> pressure-packed situation.
That's my thinking. If Frank were really 'dangerous' to his
patients, as they often teased him, they'd have tried to get
him sent back to the States, so he wouldn't be there cutting
on so many people. That's why I tend to think he was
basically competent, but not as good as the others, and
certainly not as dedicated.
Aaron Baugher
to anyone who comes along with a rank of major or higher,
especially if he's regular army, which she highly admires.
Every general who comes to camp seems to know her. :-)
When Winchester first shows up, she kisses up to him a bit,
but of course at that point he wants nothing to do with
anyone.
One thing about Margaret is that she commits herself totally
once she gets involved. At the start Frank may have just
been the only guy available who fit her basic criteria, so
she accepted the rest, like his simpering. Once they were a
couple, she was devoted to him, just like to Donald and
Scully later.
Brad Filippone
: swi...@mail.auburn.edu (Kelley P Swilley) writes:
: > 2. Frank is a lousy surgeon. Margaret doesn't respect
: > Hawkeye and Trapper's unmilitary behavior, but she knows a
: > good surgeon when she sees one. Margaret may be turned on
: > by Frank's militariness, but wouldn't incompetence be a
: > bit of a turn-off for her?
: I've always assumed that the put-downs of Frank's ability
: were greatly exaggerated. For one thing, how would they
: have kept up a 97-98% success rate with 1/4 of their
: surgical staff being incompetent? Also, if he were really
: that bad, the other surgeons would have tried to keep him
: from working on anyone. He was probably not as spectacular
: as the other surgeons, and not as committed to doing a great
: job every time, but surely not really incompetent.
Which bring to mind a question. How many times do we actually see an
example of Frank being incompetent? The only time that springs to mind is
in "O.R." when he almost removes a kidney from a patient who only has one.
He seems to be remorseful about the incident, profusely thanking Trapper
for pointing it out.
I'm probably forgetting some other times. Can anyone think of any?
The Other Brad
PAUL GADZIKOWSKI
: How many times do we actually see an
: example of Frank being incompetent? The only time that springs to mind is
: in "O.R." when he almost removes a kidney from a patient who only has one.
: He seems to be remorseful about the incident, profusely thanking Trapper
: for pointing it out.
: I'm probably forgetting some other times. Can anyone think of any?
I'll suggest that that was less incompetence than being tired and rushed,
as putting that spin on it supports my contention that Frank was not
actually portrayed as incompentent in the early years.
For a case of actual incompetence, there's the business about
exteriorizing in "Margaret's Engagement" (late Burns).
Audrey Meusel
she is both military and medical. She's career army; she volunteered for
Korea, and when she got there, found the reality horrific. It was never
clear whether she served in WWII; if Korea was her first war, or her first
time actually at the front, it must have been a shock. And the 4077th she
was in charge of 10 nurses and having constantly to fend off disrespect,
sexual harassment and difficult working conditions, under constant enemy
fire. The surgeons were very unsupportive of her command, undermining her
staff's respect for her at every possible opportunity. The commanding
officer isn't very commanding, especially from HER viewpoint. Oh, we all
love Henry, but he was very loose and put up with an awful lot, probably
much more than anyone else she'd ever worked with. Potter was a lot easier
for her, and probably she came to appreciate Henry (or his memory) by the
time she left, but not in the Frank years.
But she's also equally medical, and actually, that seems to come first more
of the time. In fact, Frank's callous attitude toward patients did shock
her on more than one occasion ("Frank, the patient nearly died" in Margaret'
s Engagement). She did say, later, that she joined the army (the family
business) to be a nurse. Not the other way round.
For Margaret, Frank was the embodiment of all she had been raised to
respect. He was clean (do NOT underestimate the attraction of cleanliness),
he shaved, his uniform was always crisply ironed, and he seemed to her to
have respect for military protocol. He wasn't really bad-looking, it was
his sour mannerisms that were ugly, more than his actual features (and
Linville's physical incarnation of this character was brilliant).
I think that while it's true that sex was very important to her, she could
get it elsewhere, on leave, with any of her contacts in the higher brass (or
anyone who struck her passing fancy, like Fred in the episode where she
called him from her conference in Tokyo - "Der Tag"? Anyway, she was NEVER
exclusive with Frank), the real reason was his access to power. Early on,
she found Henry to be barely competent as a commander. There is truth to
this; even Hawkeye tells his father that Henry's not a great commander - he'
s a terrific doctor and person, but certainly not a great leader. As Frank
was second-in-command, attaching herself to Frank gave her access to command
power. When Henry was away from camp or if anything happened to him, she'd
be running the unit, though ostensibly behind the scenes. Unfortunately,
this was probably the only way for a woman to command a MASH unit in the 50'
s (let's not get into her self-esteem issues with men), so she took the
route available to her. Potter was a relief to her (and the scenes where
she's sucking up to him mightily and he's not buying it are wonderful) but
notice that even Potter, when Charles was indisposed, gave command to
Hawkeye, even though she outranked him. (Yes, yes, I know, the story was
about Hawkeye finding out about what command really was like, but Hawk could
at least have tried to foist it off on her.) She wanted and needed military
discipline, and there was very little of that in camp.
tho...@antispam.ham
> Her all-Army uber-patriotism
> I've always been a bit puzzled as to exactly why she would find him
> so appealing.
I think the answer is pretty simple. The first excerpt above is the
clue. Another relevant quotation from Margaret, when it looked like
Frank would take over command:
"...discipline, a taut ship. I like tautness!"
Frank was the most "military" of any of the officers.
MncaWnbe
was that he was there. I believe she totally bought into that "you're no one
without a man" mentality that was so prevalent in the 50s and still haunts
women today. Though in at least two early episodes, she did have the option of
dumping Frank for Trapper.
Re: Frank's incompetance, don't forget he hired someone to take his medical
boards; I believe there may have been so mention of his cheating his way into
med school as well?
Jami
T.S. Miller
Brad Filippone <al...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:8adk7q$9uo$2...@News.Dal.Ca...
> Aaron Baugher (abau...@adams.net) wrote:
> : swi...@mail.auburn.edu (Kelley P Swilley) writes:
> >
> : I've always assumed that the put-downs of Frank's ability
> : were greatly exaggerated. For one thing, how would they
> : have kept up a 97-98% success rate with 1/4 of their
> : surgical staff being incompetent? Also, if he were really
> : that bad, the other surgeons would have tried to keep him
> : from working on anyone. He was probably not as spectacular
> : as the other surgeons, and not as committed to doing a great
> : job every time, but surely not really incompetent.
The Other Brad expertly opinioned
> Which bring to mind a question. How many times do we actually see an
> example of Frank being incompetent?
> I'm probably forgetting some other times. Can anyone think of any?
>
> The Other Brad
A couple that come to mind is the time when Hawkeye was playing cards, Frank
came busting in with someone claiming that there was a wounded patient
waiting to be operated on. Hawk said that they were waiting for the guy to
stabilize or he would die on the table.
Another episode I remember is the one with the CID guy. Officially, they
were not allowed to operate without another CID guy in the OR. Hawk did
anyway and along came a gentleman named Flagg.
Sorry I don't remember episode names, but then I would be a complete MASH
geek! Which is not a bad thing to be at all.
Tim
marylu
hides her warm heart and the fact that she does like Hawkeye and BJ.If
you watch her you can see her trying not to laugh at the things they
say and do,toFarret face.She felt safe in that relationship,even if she
says she wanted him to leave his wife,she knew he never would,and that
made him more attractive to her,. Hot Lips grew up on the show and
especialy after Donald,left her.I liked her much more ,her true self
finally comes out and she is much more human.Plus Frank and Hot Lips
use each other.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Buck Rojerz
likely. However, I feel that it is much simpler than that.
I think that what Margaret sees in Frank is that; For the most part they see
eye to eye on how the army should work(disipline and such) and the most
important thing... He was *there*.
I think Margaret might have clung to most any male, who met those criteria.
my $.02
buck
Gerard
(Kelley P Swilley) wrote:
> 1. Frank is a racist. Occasionally Margaret shows signs of racism herself
> ("these people have no espectray"), but the difference between her and
> Frank on this point is illustrated sharply in "The Kids."
Not trying to justify it, but being a bigot was pretty much in keeping with
the times. Being an "internationalist" was out of place at the time.
> 2. Frank is a lousy surgeon. Margaret doesn't respect Hawkeye and
> Trapper's unmilitary behavior, but she knows a good surgeon when she sees
> one. Margaret may be turned on by Frank's militariness, but wouldn't
> incompetence be a bit of a turn-off for her?
Margaret idolized her "dead" (depending on the season) father. It was his
staunch military character that she saw in Frank.
> She links up with Frank because he's the only one who shares her attitude
> toward all things Army.
That's all I can think of. Then again love needs no reason- it just is.
> This seems to be the only thing that really binds
> Margaret to Frank. Any ideas?
All I can say is Margaret let herself get strung along emotionally with
this "I'm leaving my wife for you" bit.
George Hiebert
<Gerard> wrote in message news:gbrillan-1...@129.174.26.13...
> In article <8a9m16$7u2$1...@ultranews.duc.auburn.edu>,
swi...@mail.auburn.edu
> (Kelley P Swilley) wrote:
> > 2. Frank is a lousy surgeon. Margaret doesn't respect Hawkeye and
> > Trapper's unmilitary behavior, but she knows a good surgeon when she
sees
> > one. Margaret may be turned on by Frank's militariness, but wouldn't
> > incompetence be a bit of a turn-off for her?
>
> Margaret idolized her "dead" (depending on the season) father. It was his
> staunch military character that she saw in Frank.
Yes in one ep Margaret says Frank reminds her more and more of Dad. The
receding hairline and something else I can't remember.
JayZ755
>> ("these people have no espectray"), but the difference between her and
>> Frank on this point is illustrated sharply in "The Kids."
>
>Not trying to justify it, but being a bigot was pretty much in keeping with
>the times. Being an "internationalist" was out of place at the time.
True. However, the show was reflecting much more the mainstream racial
attitudes of the time it was made, rather than the time it was set. Similarly,
an early 50s setting should have had much more cigarette smoking than we saw.
Ed
wrote:
>I think that what Margaret sees in Frank is that; For the most part they see
>eye to eye on how the army should work(disipline and such) and the most
>important thing... He was *there*.
No, I see that Margaret sees that Frank is a Major and that's all she
sees. Sure she likes the military in Frank, but she knows he's a lousy
doctor and wouldn't even let him perform a simple appendectomy. A
doctor that couldn't be trusted to do a simple appendectomy should be
a doctor, period. If Frank had been a Captain like Trapper, Hawkeye,
and BJ, she wouldn't have given him the time of day.
She even has a thing for Charles, that she's trying to fight, and the
thing for him is that he's a Major. If there was a Lieutenant Colonel
in Mash 4077 that didn't command the Mash, she'd be all over him.
Lorraine
Ed wrote:
> No, I see that Margaret sees that Frank is a Major and that's all she
> sees. Sure she likes the military in Frank, but she knows he's a lousy
> doctor and wouldn't even let him perform a simple appendectomy. A
> doctor that couldn't be trusted to do a simple appendectomy should be
> a doctor, period. If Frank had been a Captain like Trapper, Hawkeye,
> and BJ, she wouldn't have given him the time of day.
Actually, it wasn't so much that he was a lousy doctor (although I don't think he
was as caring as some of the others), it was that he still had a thing for her
and she didn't want him to touch her. But she did seem to have a real thing for
upper level officers, especially generals!
Lorraine
BBB
JayZ755
>
Unless she toted a Steely Dan, she was nailed by the Generals, not the other
way around. Think about it.
Paul Atreides
<20000320001349...@ng-cq1.aol.com>:
>>No doubt!! she nailed every General in the Army!! (Pardon
>>my lang.) :-)
>>
>
>Unless she toted a Steely Dan, she was nailed by the
>Generals, not the other way around. Think about it.
>
Given that Margaret had a whip and thigh-high leather high-
heeled boots (how ya gonna fish in those?), I always wondered if
she gave as good as she got. Kinda sheds new light on the
relationship between her and Frank, don't it?
--
Paul
atre...@sover.net
Gerard
(Paul Atreides) wrote:
> Given that Margaret had a whip and thigh-high leather high-
> heeled boots (how ya gonna fish in those?)
oh man you just gave me the best laugh today. I still picture the face on
Potter contemplating the fine art of angling in those "army" boots.
Paul Atreides
That was one of my all time favorite lines and has become something of a
catch-phrase around my house. Anytime you don't get what's going on just say,
"How ya gonna fish in those?" and it gets explained more clearly.
Speaking of Potter, one of my housemates' uncles just sent me a gen-u-ine WWI
era campaign hat, from right out of the blue! It is my new drinking hat. I am
torn between the desire to MASH it out by sticking a colonel's bird on it and
wanting to keep it as minty as I can. I also just won a Jeep hat like Radar
wore on E-bay. Once I get more hats, stay tuned this summer for drunken
reenactments of episodes in my driveway!
--
Paul Atreides
atre...@sover.net
"Its nice to be nice to the nice."
Frank Burns