Magnum as a SEAL
MURPHYMJ1
Why was it NEVER mantioned that TM was a Navy SEAL? Obviously it was inferred
(he wore the "Budweiser", Col. Keye stated that he worked as part of an
assassan team in Viet Nam, etc.). It couldn't be from a lack of Bellisario's
knowledge as he has had this theme before with Quantum Leap and others. I
think that the only explanation is that historically, no SEAL has ever been
taken prisoner. And as we all remember, TM/TC were POWs. Any guesses from
Dave or others are appreciated.
Mahalo,
Matt Murphy
David Romas
In article <199805121526...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, murp...@aol.com
says...
:-) Since you asked...
You point out that it's never mentioned, and you're pretty much right.
In fact, the word SEAL (in the Navy sense) is uttered only one time in
the entire series: Tyler McKinney (Robert Forster)'s line in "All For
One"...
THOMAS: We're not "letting the action pass us by", we're facing up to
reality...putting those times to rest.
TYLER: Then what are you wearing that SEAL cap, and that M.I.A. bracelet
on your wrist, for?
You bring up an interesting detail about no SEAL ever being taken and
the fact that Thomas was a POW briefly. However, it can be explained,
and within the continuity of Thomas's character history as laid out
in the series. The three months Thomas spent as Ivan's prisoner was
early in his first tour in Vietnam and was *prior* to him completing
SEAL qualification. We know from "Don't Eat the Snow in Hawaii" and
other ep's that Thomas went into Surface Fleet when he graduated from
the Academy (class of '68). He didn't go into Special Warfare right
away (as Academy grads today have the option of doing). We know
from "All For One" that Rick was new to "The Team" around Christmas
of '69 and that he came onto the team to replace T.C.'s former
gunner, Cookie, who is the one we see killed by Ivan while they are
POWs in "Did You See the Sunrise?" Thomas isn't seen as a SEAL
in episodes until after the formation of the "Team of the Croix" which
happened after Rick was already in place.
I know it's confusing - mostly because the order of the episodes in
which we get to see flashbacks to Vietnam is nowhere near the actual
continuity order of the events we're shown. In other words, as a
good example, the Vietnam flashbacks we see in the series' very first
episode actually are events from near the end of Magnum's time in
Vietnam. And flashbacks we see in later episodes are for events from
much earlier in his time in Vietnam. Luckily, someone once went to
the (considerable) task of dissecting ALL the flashbacks and put them
into a continuity timeline and wrote it up in a single, illustrated
document titled _Magnum and MAC-V-SOG_. All you have to do is email
me with your mailing address (street, city, etc.) if you want a copy
of this written chronicle and timeline of Thomas Magnum's military
career.
Best,
David Romas
Magnum Memorabilia
(MPI's nonprofit foundation for collecting,
production, scholarship, and fan services)
Robert P. Morrone
I might be wrong but I thought that it was common knowledge that TM was a
SEAL. Check out the "budweiser" on his uniform when he's in his "whites"
and on his Teams ball cap. The SEALs are the only special ops combat troops
that the Navy has. They used to have UDT (Underwater Demolition Teams) and
they evolved into the SEAL Teams.
I thought everybody knew that Magnum was a SPECWAR/SEAL.
MURPHYMJ1 wrote in message
<199805121526...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
>Why was it NEVER mantioned that TM was a Navy SEAL? Obviously it was
inferred
>(he wore the "Budweiser", Col. Keye stated that he worked as part of an
>assassan team in Viet Nam, etc.). It couldn't be from a lack of
Bellisario's
>knowledge as he has had this theme before with Quantum Leap and others. I
>think that the only explanation is that historically, no SEAL has ever been
>taken prisoner. And as we all remember, TM/TC were POWs. Any guesses from
>Dave or others are appreciated.
>Mahalo,
>Matt Murphy
>
bi...@pubpress.com
In article <6jbdgd$j5h$1...@gte1.gte.net>,
looking for a book and his voice over mentions that he was a SEAL.
Bill Peace
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
MURPHYMJ1
>I might be wrong but I thought that it was common knowledge that TM was a
>SEAL. Check out the "budweiser" on his uniform when he's in his "whites"
>and on his Teams ball cap. The SEALs are the only special ops combat troops
>that the Navy has. They used to have UDT (Underwater Demolition Teams) and
>they evolved into the SEAL Teams.
>
>I thought everybody knew that Magnum was a SPECWAR/SEAL
Exactly my point! Of course TSM is a SEAL, but he has never uttered those
words, never had flashbacks about or mentioned BUD/S training. In any case,
thanks Dave for your input and POW explanation. MM
David Romas
In article <199805140615...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, murp...@aol.com
says...
>Exactly my point! Of course TSM is a SEAL, but he has never uttered those
>words, never had flashbacks about or mentioned BUD/S training. In any case,
>thanks Dave for your input and POW explanation. MM
In researching the real-life SEALs for the history paper I mentioned
(_Magnum and MAC-V-SOG_), I discovered that for a time in the early
70s they operated a make-shift training installation at Nha Trang,
on the coast near Da Nang. The SEALs used it primarily for the training
of South Vietnamese frogmen.
In my paper, when I point out how in the TV series it's implied that
Thomas didn't start out a SEAL, but rather achieved that qualification
sometime *during* his war years, I suggest that it's reasonable to
speculate that he did his SEAL basic-training at the Nha Trang camp
(rather than Little Creek, VA which was more commonly "the place for it"
back in those days - nowadays "the place" is Coronado, CA). Keep in
mind that he was in SE Asia for no less than six full years, and did
three combat tours. That's a long time, compared to most other
personnel and especially "conventional" combat troops. He did alot.
Went from Ensign to LT JG to LT SG. Learned two additional languages
(French and Vietnamese). Met, courted, and married a woman. And
also, evidently, took the steps he had to to qualify as a SEAL.
And he didn't necessarily come back stateside to do it.
I point out several other things to help the plausibility of this....
1) In times of war, many "standard" military policies and procedures go
out the window. The military has a tendency to function much more on
a basis of "whatever works is cool" when there's a war on, and moreso
in the theater of the conflict than in the stateside administration.
For Magnum, by the time he got around to needing to, or wanting to,
work within the SEALs he already was a seasoned combat soldier and
Vietnamese intelligence expert with at least one complete combat tour
of duty already under his utility-belt. He already had been fighting
in SE Asia "unconventionally" for quite a while. In fact, it's entirely
possible that he was *requested* by the SEALs as some sort of training
consultant.
2) Nowadays we (the general public) know, or *think* we know, alot more
about the SEALs than was known of them twenty-eight years ago. A whole
lot about what it means to be a SEAL and to become a SEAL was very
different in the late 60s/early 70s than it has evolved to mean by the 1990s.
Today, SEAL policy and procedure is defined, structured, and documented.
But in Magnum's day, SEALs as a unit were in their infancy - defining
themselves as a unit and doing it on the fly under conditions of war.
(Thomas Magnum would nearly - perhaps not quite - be what they call a
"bullfrog" - a founding member.)
About nine years ago someone pointed out to me that it's also possible
that he didn't undergo SEAL qualification until *after* he left Vietnam.
And I entertained that idea for a couple years. After all, we know
from "Little Girl Who" that he left Vietnam at the end of April '75
(when a WHOLE LOTTA the American types bugged-out for good).
Presumably, Pearl Harbor was his next duty station - and would be so
until the end of '79 when he resigned from the Navy. 3.5 years there...
plenty of time in which to include going off and getting SEALish.
But in 91/92 when I was scouring Vietnam era government documents and
SEALs' autobiographies for the MAC-V-SOG paper, I ran across one that talked
about clothing and how during the war the SEALs never really developed a
standard issue. They mostly were able to wear and use whatever they wanted,
mixing everything together from tiger stripe to O.D. green to blue jeans to
black pajamas. Head covers ranged from O.D. bandanas to floppy "boonie"
hats to nothing at all. Berets were rare (and never made "official"
as in the Army where Special Forces wear green, Airborne wear maroon,
and Rangers wear black). But in the unusual occasion SEALs used
berets they usually were black. And, of course, we see Thomas using the
black beret late in his combat years (after the Team of the Croix already
was formed) in the flashbacks in "Don't Eat the Snow in Hawaii,"
"Two Birds of A Feather," "Paradise Blues" and others. In fact,
in the "Paradise Blues" flashbacks he already has the SEAL trident badge
(subdued) patched on his O.D. shirt.
It occurs to me that if I keep on like this I will have essentially
re-typed my whole paper from memory (and will have lost a night's
sleep). So I'll cut it here. :-|
David Romas
Magnum Memorabilia
Robert P. Morrone
Well written David, but I disagree. The Navy DID NOT and DOES NOT HAVE
land-based combat troops apart from the UTD/SEALs. All of your theory goes
out the window when the light of fact is shed on it. When you say that
Magnum had combat experience... experience as what? If he wasn't a SEAL,
then he was either on a boat (which he claims to know his way around quite
well), or he was a desk jockey (Intelligence Officer maybe). SEALs was
something you applied for, tested for and trained very hard for.
And as far as SEAL training not being what it is today, no, their training
was not the counter-terrorist/SEAL Team 6 training of today, but the SEALs
that I knew during the war were trained combat specialists. They trained
harder than any other Special Ops group that I've encountered. They were
truly SPECWAR specialists.
The SEALs may have been a new label, but they were not in their infancy.
They are a continuation of the Frogmen/Underwater Demolitions Teams. They
were not in their infancy...they were the result of evolvolution.
Thomas would never of had an opportunity to demonstrate is "combat skills"
because the Navy DID NOT nor DO THEY had land-based, combat troops apart
from the Teams.
Also SEALs qualification has never been a field promotion. Thomas would
have had to apply and then go through BUDs training stateside. There was no
place for somebody to be seen, observed, and recruited for their combat
abilities, because (now lets all say it together)... The Navy didn't have
land-based combat troops apart from the Teams.
I think it more likely that Thomas graduated the acadamy, came up through
the Naval Intelligence channels then applied for SEALs, went stateside for
training, then returned to Viet Nam.
That's my 2 cents.
David Romas wrote in message <6jfug9$h...@drn.newsguy.com>...
Robert P. Morrone
Well written David, but I disagree. The Navy DID NOT and DOES NOT HAVE
land-based combat troops apart from the UTD/SEALs. All of your theory goes
out the window when the light of fact is shed on it. When you say that
Magnum had combat experience... experience as what? If he wasn't a SEAL,
then he was either on a boat (which he claims to know his way around quite
well), or he was a desk jockey (Intelligence Officer maybe). SEALs was
something you applied for, tested for and trained very hard for.
And as far as SEAL training not being what it is today, no, their training
was not the counter-terrorist/SEAL Team 6 training of today, but the SEALs
that I knew during the war were trained combat specialists. They trained
harder than any other Special Ops group that I've encountered. They were
truly SPECWAR specialists.
The SEALs may have been a new label, but they were not in their infancy.
They are a continuation of the Frogmen/Underwater Demolitions Teams. They
were not in their infancy...they were the result of evolvolution.
And Thomas would never of had an opportunity to demonstrate is "combat
skills"
because the Navy DID NOT nor DO THEY have land-based, combat troops apart
from the Teams.
Also SEALs qualification has never been a field promotion. Thomas would
have had to apply and then go through BUDs training stateside. There was no
place for somebody to be seen, observed, and recruited for their combat
abilities, because (now lets all say it together)... The Navy didn't have
land-based combat troops apart from the Teams.
There is no evidence, that I know of, that any SEAL went through BUDs
training in-country. It was all done stateside.
Jenny Sharrock-Pecore
In article <6jfug9$h...@drn.newsguy.com> David Romas <ac2...@wayne.edu> writes:
>Path: uuneo.neosoft.com!ultraneo.neosoft.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn
>From: David Romas <ac2...@wayne.edu>
>Newsgroups: alt.tv.magnum-pi
>Subject: Re: Magnum as a SEAL
>Date: 14 May 1998 16:24:57 -0700
>Organization: Newsguy News Service [http://www.newsguy.com]
>Lines: 78
>Message-ID: <6jfug9$h...@drn.newsguy.com>
>References: <6jbdgd$j5h$1...@gte1.gte.net> <199805140615...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: p-301.newsdawg.com
>Xref: uuneo.neosoft.com alt.tv.magnum-pi:4378
>great explanation about Magnum as a SEAL snipped<
Thanks David for the wonderful insight. Good to see you posting also on the
JAG mailing list. Not sure whether or not this has been discussed but wasn't
Tom Selleck also a vetern of the war in Vietnam??? As I recall he was,
which made is portrayal of Magnum so perfect. So if he was in Vietnam, what
did he do? Was in the Navy? What rank, etc.?
Just curious,
Jenny
David Romas
In article <jenny.117...@neosoft.com>, je...@neosoft.com says...
>
>>great explanation about Magnum as a SEAL snipped<
>
>Thanks David for the wonderful insight. Good to see you posting also on the
>JAG mailing list. Not sure whether or not this has been discussed but wasn't
>Tom Selleck also a vetern of the war in Vietnam??? As I recall he was,
>which made is portrayal of Magnum so perfect. So if he was in Vietnam, what
>did he do? Was in the Navy? What rank, etc.?
Tom Selleck did a year or so in the National Guard in Southern California.
I believe this was around 1969. I don't believe he ever went abroad.
Notice that I'm simply stating his military service background, not making
a statement *about* it.
David Romas
Magnum Memorabilia
David Romas
In article <6jgiuo$947$1...@gte2.gte.net>, "Robert says...
>Well written David, but I disagree.
Fair enough. If we all agreed about everything, discussions would get
sedantary pretty quickly around here. New points of view would never
be inspired. :-)
>The Navy DID NOT and DOES NOT HAVE
>land-based combat troops apart from the UTD/SEALs.
I find this to be a rather large statement. How can we be sure that
this is true today and has always been true in the past? Sure, it's true
that *in theory* and *on paper* all personnel in departments of the
Navy other than SPECWAR (meaning Surface Fleet, Aviation, Submarines,
etc.) are not "land-based". But who's to say what can and can't happen
in reality and out of necessity during times of war?
For example: My own father is a former USMC draftee. When I've mentioned
this in the past to staunch "rules and regs" Marines they've insisted
that it is not true and has NEVER been true of the Marine Corps. But to
be precise, what they ought to be arguing is that it never has been the
*policy* of the Marine Corps to accept draftees. Because, in reality
during the Vietnam War there was no shortage of draftees serving in the
ranks of the USMC. And it was against rules and regs the entire time.
>All of your theory goes
>out the window when the light of fact is shed on it. When you say that
>Magnum had combat experience... experience as what? If he wasn't a SEAL,
>then he was either on a boat (which he claims to know his way around quite
>well), or he was a desk jockey (Intelligence Officer maybe).
Again, I question why these can be the only options we should consider.
For instance, is it conceivable that an intelligence officer could also
be a field operative? Is it just me, or do the two things seem to go
together? Try this; if I'm a USN LT(JG) trained as an intel specialist and
it's Da Nang 1970 (the Marines founded the airbase there in Jan.'63) and
my TOC (are they called tactical *operations* centers because everyone
rides a desk?) has sent me up the coast a ways to recover some stolen
documents and in the process I get into a little firefight with some locals,
does the fact that on my uniform I wear a surface fleet badge mean that
I didn't have a ground combat experience just now?
>SEALs was
>something you applied for, tested for and trained very hard for.
I don't think what I wrote ever suggests something other than this. I'm
of the opinion (and I would've thought this was implied in the way I wrote
about them) that from day one of their existence, SEALs have had the
most demanding training and conditions ever devised by mankind. I'm not
alone in this opinion. But, as you probably know, there are opposing
views.
>And as far as SEAL training not being what it is today, no, their training
>was not the counter-terrorist/SEAL Team 6 training of today, but the SEALs
>that I knew during the war were trained combat specialists. They trained
>harder than any other Special Ops group that I've encountered. They were
>truly SPECWAR specialists.
It sounds like my wording is being mis-interpreted or being read-into too
deeply. When I say something along the lines of SEAL rules, regs, and
training being different today than they were in the past, that isn't a
value judgement. I don't think I've implied that things are better or
worse, tougher or less tough.
>The SEALs may have been a new label, but they were not in their infancy.
>They are a continuation of the Frogmen/Underwater Demolitions Teams. They
>were not in their infancy...they were the result of evolvolution.
Again, I'm being read too literally. If I say something along the lines
of, in the late 1960s SEALs as a unit was in its infancy, I'm not trying
to ignore its evolution out of the UDTs. Maybe infancy is the wrong
word. I was simply refering to the fact that the unit hadn't existed all
that long yet. Kennedy established them with a presidential order in Jan.'62.
Even to this day (only 35.5 years later) they're a relatively "young" unit
compared to the majority of the rest of the American military.
>And Thomas would never of had an opportunity to demonstrate is "combat
>skills"
>because the Navy DID NOT nor DO THEY have land-based, combat troops apart
>from the Teams.
Again with the land-based. I simply disagree that it's really so cut and
dried as this. I'm always reluctant to go along with "never" statements,
like: a huge, unwieldy organization with an awful lot of history such as the
Navy never does nor did this or that. I find it possible, likely even, that
there could be exceptions to everything.
>Also SEALs qualification has never been a field promotion. Thomas would
>have had to apply and then go through BUDs training stateside. There was no
Ok, I can go along with this. As I said, my part about him possibly
doing his SEAL training at their Nha Trang installation is pure speculation.
I think that he probably did have to go stateside. It's just that when
I read that SEALs trained frogmen at Nha Trang I thought maybe someone
like Magnum could've trained there too. Even now, that doesn't sound too
crazy to me.
>place for somebody to be seen, observed, and recruited for their combat
>abilities, because (now lets all say it together)... The Navy didn't have
>land-based combat troops apart from the Teams.
I have a buddy in Pearl Harbor who's in Surface Fleet, a non-land-based
designation. But for the past year or so he's used water only to wash
himself. All of his job happens on land. Granted, it's today and not
combat. But I simply think we should be open to possibilities, no matter
how implausible they may be in theory or in the rules. At the risk of going
so far as to sound like a conspiracy theorist, I would venture that
maybe the Navy has a reason for *wanting* us to think it has never had
ground combatants outside of the Teams. For instance, if I asked certain
people at CIA I'd probably be told that it has never run any "domestic"
operations - because that's not its mission, right? It's an
organization for the collection, management, and administration of
"foreign" intelligence. But should I really believe that they've
never once stepped outside of their bounds?
>There is no evidence, that I know of, that any SEAL went through BUDs
>training in-country. It was all done stateside.
I like the "that I know of" here. That's the key. We're all limited
to the evidence that we're aware of. I'm inclined to take your word
for it on this point about BUD/S always being stateside because I too
have seen no conclusive evidence to the contrary.
>I think it more likely that Thomas graduated the acadamy, came up through
>the Naval Intelligence channels then applied for SEALs, went stateside for
>training, then returned to Viet Nam.
Sounds perfectly plausible to me.
David Romas
Magnum Memorabilia
Beverly Kai
Okay, Guys - - the straight goods is that the Navy never never never
never had any land-based teams in Vietnam other than the Demolition
teams.
Never never never never.
Uh-huh.
And yellow specks on all the leaves of the trees in the Vietnam forest
were bee. pollen;
President Reagan didnt know what Ollie North was doing down in the
basement;
And the Atomic Energy Commission didn't know that fallout from Nevada
tests were causing large clusters of cancer in people living downwind;
The Army didn't know that it's bacteriological warfare units were
spraying San Francisco in testing in the lat 1940's;
And Aldrich Ames was well-regarded in the Intelligence Establishement.
I'm sure that lurkers and others have similar knee-slappers.
If governments were straight up-front with their people, Scully and
Mulder would have no audience.
Marco Smetz
On 14 May 1998 06:15:44 GMT, murp...@aol.com (MURPHYMJ1) wrote:
> >I might be wrong but I thought that it was common knowledge that TM was a
>>SEAL. Check out the "budweiser" on his uniform when he's in his "whites"
>>and on his Teams ball cap. The SEALs are the only special ops combat troops
>>that the Navy has. They used to have UDT (Underwater Demolition Teams) and
>>they evolved into the SEAL Teams.
>>
>>I thought everybody knew that Magnum was a SPECWAR/SEAL
>
>Exactly my point! Of course TSM is a SEAL, but he has never uttered those
There are several more hints he is a Navy SEAL like the SEAL
swimshort, the SEAL cap he waers in "All for one" and several more
things.
--
---Marco Smetz--------------------------------------//--
-[msm...@tkc.de]-[sm...@fh-kr.KR.FH-Niederrhein.DE]//--
--------[http://mehrwert.net/magnum/index.htm]---//--
Beverly Kai
The main policy of all military services is 'for the good of the
service".
This means they can say one thing and do another. Offhand, I think that
their secondary policy could be, "Say one thing and do another.'
My son-in-law is stationed at the same base as the Delta Force. He is so
close-mouthed that although I know he was a weapons-tech, he never told
me what aircraft he crewed on. I read in Men's Journal that the
modified C-130 gunship is the aircraft.
He never mentions the Delta Force.
For all I know, he is really stationed at a base half a world away and
is co-inventor of particle beams.
Or maybe he is assigned to Special Services, and is a highly trained
actor playing a part designed to deceive.
This is all my fantasy- - - - - -but so were news dispatches in the
Vietnam era, and even in the Gulf War.
The rules don't always apply - - - -
You can natter at each other forever, and still go round in circles.
It takes about five years, at least, for an "official lie" to be
announced. Or maybe never. Enough of you guys have served to know what
I am talking about.
Anne Winslow
OK I may be an idiot but my Da is RAF. I really don't care what lies the
government tells the media during wartime as long as he comes home safe
and sound. He was in Nam in the early 60's. At first they wouldn't
issue them firearms. Then they wouldn't issue them ordinance. Then they
couldn't shoot back. Then they could only shoot if fired upon when not
in the company of So. Vietnams troops. Etc. Etc. Etc. And you expect
these jokers to tell you the truth about what's going on? Get real!!!
Anne ;-}
MURPHYMJ1
YEESH! I didn't expect this to become the conspiricy theorists bulletin
board!! ;)
Robert P. Morrone
Just to confirm, I wrote to the Official Seal/UDT site with the following
mail... As the SEALs are very sensitive about fakes, I knew the following
question would be answered and they'd want to know the name of the
individual that I was talking about. Should I write him back and say,
Thomas Sullivan Magnum ;-)
From: Bob Rieve[SMTP:UDT...@PILOT.INFI.NET]
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 2:24:17 PM
To: Robert Morrone (Integrity Data Systems)
Subject: Re: Fake or Real
Robert... You are correct. All Navy SEALs are trained stateside. What is
the
fellow's name?
Bob Rieve
Executive Director
Robert Morrone wrote:
> I have an aquaintance who claims to have been recruited from the regular
> navy into the SEALs while stationed in Viet Nam. He says that he went
> through BUDs at a small training facility near Da Nang which was used
> primarily to train Vietnamese special ops groups. My question is whether
or
> not there has ever been any SEALs who did not go through BUDs stateside?
It
> sounded far-fetched to me, but I thought I'd check it out with someone who
> would know.
>
> Thanks,
> Rob Morrone
Marco Smetz wrote in message <355d4f0...@news.tkc.de>...
steven.la...@gmail.com
steven.la...@gmail.com
steven.la...@gmail.com
born...@aol.com
> Why was it NEVER mantioned that TM was a Navy SEAL? Obviously it was inferred
> (he wore the "Budweiser", Col. Keye stated that he worked as part of an
> assassan team in Viet Nam, etc.). It couldn't be from a lack of Bellisario's
> knowledge as he has had this theme before with Quantum Leap and others. I
> think that the only explanation is that historically, no SEAL has ever been
> taken prisoner. And as we all remember, TM/TC were POWs. Any guesses from
> Dave or others are appreciated.
> Mahalo,
> Matt Murphy
nmcb 21 black jack unit thats right the SEA BEES land based we build it and we fight thats my 2 cents thanks
