Ignorance as a Theme in Lost (Across the Sea Spoilers)
JoeMo
Sea, about the idea of ignorance and mystery in Lost.
Since the beginning, the show has relied on withholding to make the
tension and suspense work.
In the beginning, there are these crash survivors who basically know
nothing about the place they've crashed. Mysterious stuff happens, and
they don't know why (Losties - Level 1 of ignorance).
They meet these people who are already on the island (The Others) and
we assume they know something more about this mysterious place since
they've been there for awhile and such. (The Others - Level 2 of
ignorance)
As we get to know The Others, we meet Ben, their leader. He is so
confident and decisive and often speaks about "what the island wants",
so we assume he knows something more than his people, who we find out
just basically blindly follow him. (Ben - Level 3 of ignorance)
But then we discover that Ben was recruited by the mysterious Richard
Alpert, an ageless "Advisor" who seems to know much more than Ben,
since he's the only one who's ever talked to Jacob. But then we
discover Jacob didn't really ever tell him anything, except "don't
worry, I have a plan". (Richard - Level 4 of ignorance)
Up the chain another link, we have Jacob himself. We've always assumed
he had some higher level of knowledge, but now we see, he got his
powers from magical wine, and a mother who didn't tell him much of
anything, other than "do go into the magical light pool." It's still
possible, that when she made him "the same" he gained a kind of
"enlightenment" and understands more than he's letting on. But based
on the look on his face when he threw MIB in the pool, he didn't
really know what was going to happen (Jacob - Level 5 of ignorance)
Now we have "Mama Magic" as she's been dubbed in another thread, and
she seems to know much more than she's saying. What does she know,
have we FINALLY reached the end of the chain? Who knows. I doubt we'll
ever find out, but I'm guessing what she knows is mostly her own
psycho delusions and possibly a few spells? I bet no one ever told her
anything either (Mama - Level 6 of ignorance)
Could it be that the point they're trying to make is that no one EVER
has any answers to life? Everyone just pretends to know more than they
let on, while those more in the dark look up to them as all-knowing?
Is this the major theme to Lost coming to the surface? Instead of
giving us answers, they're saying there are no answers?
If that's the point they're trying to make, I wish they'd do it a
little better, so that it makes sense and feels right, instead of like
a cheat, which is what I kind of felt last night.
I will reserve ultimate judgement until the end, but for the first
time now, I'm getting worried that one of my favorite shows of all
time is being seriously fumbled during the last few moments of the
"game".
BTW, after the episode, I'm starting to think that tdciago's
interpretation of the show is the most dead-on of any theory in here.
(Unless the extra half hour they just added to the finale is for a
series of flashbacks to show us how every scene in the show so far was
a con and how everyone secretly has a double.)
thinbluemime
> Could it be that the point they're trying to make is that no one EVER
> has any answers to life? Everyone just pretends to know more than they
> let on, while those more in the dark look up to them as all-knowing?
> Is this the major theme to Lost coming to the surface? Instead of
> giving us answers, they're saying there are no answers?
>
> If that's the point they're trying to make, I wish they'd do it a
> little better, so that it makes sense and feels right, instead of like
> a cheat, which is what I kind of felt last night.
>
"Could it be that the point they're trying to make is that no one EVER has
any answers to life?...If that's the point they're trying to make, I wish
they'd do it a little better"
Somewhere in that statement there may be a logic flaw, but I get your
drift. By not providing the answers that the show runners have reached in
their own lives, they allow you to reach your own opinion, applying your
own free will.
The show runners have an agenda, but they have been relatively vague and
gentle, allowing viewers to reach their own conclusions in their own time
over these six seasons.
HINT: I wish the show runners could reveal the true nature of god, but
first I wish they would explain photosynthesis, you know, that simple
thing that grass does so well.
JoeMo
My point was, that from a storytelling persepctive, even though
there's not always a "right" way to do something, there's almost
always a "wrong" way to do that same thing.
If I'm telling a story that's about how there are no answers in life,
I need to lead the viewers down a path that arrives at that conclusion
in a fair way that makes some kind of sense, so the viewer doesn't
feel cheated. Think every M. Night Shamalan movie as an example of
doing this wrong.
The way Lost has been told and sold is that there are these
inexplicable mysteries, and we will get the answers to them. It's just
a cheat when the answer is "there are no answers". If your point is
that "there are no answers" then bring us to that conclusion in a way
that's satisfying.
And this is especially frustrating since the whole show is built on
all these little throw-away mysteries that have peppered the show for
all these years. They abuse the "mystery" aspect of the show to the
point of exploitation, and it cheapens it. Think about how you felt
the first time you saw the polar bear on the island, or the hatch,
etc. It was really weird, and you felt what the characters were
probably feeling.
But by this point in the show, after everything we've seen, Hurley
could walk in on a Dragon giving birth to unicorns, and most of the
audience would just nod their head and say "I wonder if they'll ever
explain this one." We've been desensitized. It's almost like the
writers, whenever faced with parts of an episode that moved too
slowly, just played a game of mad libs and inserted some "mysterious
object/situation" to make us forget that the episode isn't so great.
And now they've done this so much, it's lost its effect.
Again, I know I sound like a hater, I'm not. I'm reaaaallllllly
excited to see how it all turns out, and it's still my favorite show
to watch. I just expected a little more sophisticated storytelling
from the team that made one of the best shows of all time.
rwgibson13
Not a bad summary of the way the "powers that be" generally act.
"Faith" if you will - the basis of just about every religion.
The characters who are curious and go out looking for "truth" (Locke,
MIB) get screwed. The closer you get to the answers to "life, the
universe and everything" the better the odds you'll get run over by a
bus...meanwhile, if you just sit still and tell the world to fuck off,
you get to enjoy paradise (Rose, Bernard). Not sure if that's the
best message in the world to take away from the show...
BTW, if you go one more up the "ladder of ignorance," you might just
stumble across the producers of this show. I'm not at all convinced
they're terribly interested in giving us answers, but much more
interested in asking the questions. In fact, I'm not at all sure they
know the answers to some of the mysteries they've introduced. Hard to
tell, without being the writer's room, but I figure with a fairly
large staff, they probably bicker a lot over which possible answers to
ultimately use. And, in the end, they go with Lindeof and Cuse's
"gut."
RWG (see the most recent interview linked in this group a couple of
hours ago)
thinbluemime
I don't work in TV productions but have watched intently for the last 5
plus years of the behind the scenes machinations of Lost. Story telling in
this medium presents unique challenges that other formats can more easily
work around. Have you ever considered how Lost would HAVE to change if
Matthew Fox was severely injured before the finale was finished? What if
an actor had a medical or family emergency that required them to be off
the Hawaiian isle for extended periods? What if there was a writer's
strike that shortened the season. How do you plan for a finale when an end
date for the show can't be determined?
All of these have been factors the Lost writers have had to deal with.
Take the end date. The first 3 seasons the writers were placing little tid
bits into the show as launching off points for future episodes, not
knowing how many seasons or episodes were ahead in the future. When the
end date was finally determined, some of those tid bits of narrative could
not be worked into the actual number of hours that were left. So they were
left hanging. As fans we say, well what about XYZ? Well, XYZ are not going
to be addressed, so those mysteries we will have to live with, without an
answer.
I believe now the Lost writers are telling a story that has real life
implications. To get to the end of that story, some elements of fun fluff
had to be dropped. Additionally, some elements could never be explained
adequately just because of the nature of the mystery. Polar Bears? They
were on the island as part of a Dharma experiment. OK, that was easy. How
does the island move and why is it invisible? In the real world it is
impossible, so a real world explanation is impossible, unless the
invisibility factor is a metaphor. How does a man float into a glowing
waterfall and emerge as a cloud of smoke?
I'm still exploring for a metaphor for that one and I wouldn't even try
looking for a plausible explanation.
I don't have all the answers, and I would guess some of the mysteries were
conjured just to keep fans interested in the show. Is that a cheat? Maybe.
But we are all still here with just a few hours of Lost remaining, and I
don't know about you, but there is no way I am quitting Lost until after
May 23 at the earliest.
PS: Oh, I almost forgot a mystery that I have invested huge amounts of
time into, and have come to peace that I will never know the answer to.
"The Numbers". And no, "because Jacob has a thing for numbers" is not an
adequate answer. We all have to make sacrifices! :)
tdciago
> I will reserve ultimate judgement until the end, but for the first
> time now, I'm getting worried that one of my favorite shows of all
> time is being seriously fumbled during the last few moments of the
> "game".
I think your analysis is entirely plausible, and that's a scary
thing. It would be a terrible disappointment to me as a fan. I feel
like "Across the Sea" sucked the life out of this season.
But I keep trying to remind myself that there *are* recurring motifs.
I'm sure of it. I don't think they were put there by accident. I can
see a way that they could all work together to provide a satisfying
resolution.
Whether the producers see that resolution — or another one that ties
everything together in a satisfying way — is another matter entirely.
> BTW, after the episode, I'm starting to think that tdciago's
> interpretation of the show is the most dead-on of any theory in here.
[FAINTS]
JoeMo
[splashes water]
Wake up, it's not that unbelievable. I mean, is there any genre other
than mythology where "a cave of magic light" isn't the most ridiculous
thing in he world? In a myth, I could swallow it, but not in many
other contexts.
tdciago
> It's thinbluemime that's the mythology theory guy. �
Nope, it's me.
> tdciago's[1] theory is
> that the entire story is a personification of astronomical objects and
> events.
And you don't see that as mythology? :)
>
> [1] Do I upcase the "t" when beginning a sentence?[2]
> [2] Just wondering.
Doesn't matter to me. Either way is fine. It started out as TDC Iago
a long time ago, but it's been tdciago on Google for the past few
years.
tdciago
> �Basically what I was
> saying is, "She postulates the show is all about the stars." �"Stars" being
> a general term for any astronomical object.
>
> Is this not correct? �If not, a correction is most welcome.
It is correct. However, when those stars are personified, you're in
the realm of mythology, as in the legends behind the constellations.
JoeMo
Yeah, I remember a year or two ago tdciago was all about the stars,
but her theory has since evolved into a more "all-encompasing"
mythological theory centering around the axis-mundi (a term I had
actually never heard before, so thanks for that!)
thinbluemime is the 9/11 guy / religious theory guy. He also had a
thing for deformities awhile back but I think he's backed off that one
since.
And to round out my list of major theories I remember from the group,
Bobbo in the Bronx is the "everyone's got a double" and "it's all a
big televised con" theory.
Of those three, tell me the mythological one isn't the closest to what
we've seen in Across the Sea...
tdciago
> So, could I deduce from this your theory is that LOST is about the
> personification of mythological astronomical events with earthly
> mythological events thrown in for texture? (In a nutshell.)
Yes. The reason for earthly events is twofold. First, there's a long
tradition of using earthly events to describe astronomical ones.
That's the whole idea behind "Hamlet's Mill," in which myths about
things like cutting down a tree and causing a flood; or a millstone
that falls off its axis; or things sinking to the bottom of the sea,
are said to be actually describing events in the heavens. When you
think of the myths behind the constellations, they also have earthly
origins.
Secondly, the axis mundi, which holds everything together, is like a
pole or tree that runs from the underworld, through the earth, and
culminates at the pole star, where earth connects to the heavens. All
three realms can be accessed along the axis. The pole star is the
center around which everything seems to revolve from our perspective
on earth. Mythologically, it's where *everything* began.
Steven L.
"rwgibson13" <rwgib...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:15d0da5f-d284-4371...@e35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
Back in 2005, Lindelof said that "Lost" was about "the search for
meaning." Search, not discovery.
In 2004, Lindelof had some major problems in his own life--his dad, with
whom he had a mixed love-hate relationship, had just passed away, and he
was working through the mystical meaning of that for himself. From an
interview last February:
"Daddy issues: Lindelof said that Star Wars was a huge influence on the
series, as well as the writers' own father issues. For himself,
Lindelof's father died a year before the Lost pilot was produced and the
project was a way for him to process some of his own feelings about the
death of his father."
Notice how daddy relationships figure so prominently in "Lost"--just as
they figure so prominently in Lindelof's life.
When you have major life issues, therapists often suggest that you keep
a journal to work through your thoughts. "Lost" may be Lindelof's own
journal--his working through his own feelings and thoughts, more
stream-of-consciousness than a tightly controlled philosophy. And
because of that, it doesn't have a definite philosophical goal to work
toward. When a loved one passes away, you don't know where the
emotional and psychological journey of that will lead you.
He won't be the first to do this. Edgar Allan Poe's poetry, for
instance. It makes more sense if you know Poe's bio.
-- Steven L.
thinbluemime
wrote:
> Back in 2005, Lindelof said that "Lost" was about "the search for
> meaning." Search, not discovery.
>
> In 2004, Lindelof had some major problems in his own life--his dad, with
> whom he had a mixed love-hate relationship, had just passed away, and he
> was working through the mystical meaning of that for himself. From an
> interview last February:
>
> "Daddy issues: Lindelof said that Star Wars was a huge influence on the
> series, as well as the writers' own father issues. For himself,
> Lindelof's father died a year before the Lost pilot was produced and the
> project was a way for him to process some of his own feelings about the
> death of his father."
>
> http://tinyurl.com/29c2kzh
>
> Notice how daddy relationships figure so prominently in "Lost"--just as
> they figure so prominently in Lindelof's life.
>
> When you have major life issues, therapists often suggest that you keep
> a journal to work through your thoughts. "Lost" may be Lindelof's own
> journal--his working through his own feelings and thoughts, more
> stream-of-consciousness than a tightly controlled philosophy. And
> because of that, it doesn't have a definite philosophical goal to work
> toward. When a loved one passes away, you don't know where the
> emotional and psychological journey of that will lead you.
>
> He won't be the first to do this. Edgar Allan Poe's poetry, for
> instance. It makes more sense if you know Poe's bio.
Damon Lindelhof: The show is very influenced by spirituality, the
religion. Carlton is catholic, me, my mother is Jewish and my atheistic
father. The character of Locke, for example, known as always “the island
asks me to do it”. He speaks about God.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tv.lost/msg/f6460bd9d6249189
tenworld
>
> Back in 2005, Lindelof said that "Lost" was about "the search for
> meaning." Search, not discovery.
I think that line is the standard excuse when writers can't find a
good closure. Whether thats because of ego, lack of Studio/network
support, laziness, or the writer is miffed because Usenet readers
guessed right and they don't want to do something already discussed,
its a copout.
The shows and books we remember with pleasure are the ones that had a
satisfactory ending, like The Fugitive, Newhart, and LOTR (book not
movie).
thinbluemime
>> It is correct. However, when those stars are personified, you're in
>> the realm of mythology, as in the legends behind the constellations.
>
> Yeah, I remember a year or two ago tdciago was all about the stars,
> but her theory has since evolved into a more "all-encompasing"
> mythological theory centering around the axis-mundi (a term I had
> actually never heard before, so thanks for that!)
>
> thinbluemime is the 9/11 guy / religious theory guy. He also had a
> thing for deformities awhile back but I think he's backed off that one
> since.
>
> And to round out my list of major theories I remember from the group,
> Bobbo in the Bronx is the "everyone's got a double" and "it's all a
> big televised con" theory.
>
> Of those three, tell me the mythological one isn't the closest to what
> we've seen in Across the Sea...
I think your summation of three of our theories is generally spot on.
Nicely done.
In regards to the mythological aspects of Lost, it depends how you choose
to define 'myth'. Joseph Campbell has said that 'myth is a metaphor', and
except for Rob Good's series of posts, I think the rest of us have tried
to apply that concept to our individual theories. tdciago has taken an
astronomical approach. Mine has been more real world, leaning toward the
Abrahamic religions, Israel, and elements of the September 11 attacks.
Bill Moyer did interviews with Joseph Campbell and George Lucas. A link to
the Lucas interview was made again today in this forum. I highly recommend
listening to Moyer's interviews with these two modern myth makers.
Campbell was a mentor to Lucas, and the Star Wars movies are full of
reimagined, reframed myths. A Hero's Journey is good too, but the
audio/video interviews, especially the one with Lucas, hits many of the
high points in less than an hour.
Steven L.
"tenworld" <t...@world.std.com> wrote in message
news:35d28c1c-e2da-4b7c...@g1g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
I guess you're not a fan of soap operas.
After 40 years of "Days of Our Lives," you stop waiting for closure.
-- Steven L.
Bill Taylor
> Secondly, the axis mundi, which holds everything together, is like a
> pole or tree that runs from the underworld, through the earth,
> ...Mythologically, it's where *everything* began.
But didn't they chop that down, in "Avatar"?
So, no more myth....
-- Trad/Anon
** Faith is believing what you know ain't so. - Huckleberry
Finn
ejt
They could have EASILY resolved all the loose threads in the number of
hours available if they had had cared to, but instead they chose to
put in meaningless filler (Jin delivers balloons to woman in hospital,
Kate's trial, etc...) and bring in wave after wave of new characters
that took up an inordinate amount of time. If they had chosen to focus
on finishing what they started, there was plenty of time.
Darren Delgado
I thought the balloons episode was a nice touch, and in general, I
thought they STILL could have resolved all the loose ends very easily,
while still retaining the charm of the series and the depth of the
characters. It wouldn't have taken but one very plot-intense episode
toward the end in flashback mode... in fact, that's what I thought the
function of Zoe and the WidCorp. contingent was going to be all about
when they first showed up in Season 6. Like, say, Zoe gets captured
and tied up somewhere, and one of the befuddled 815 people says,
"you're gonna tell us what the fuck this show is about, or we're going
to slit your throat." And then, begin 45-minute flashback. That
would have fit with the new "give me answers" attitude of the main
characters in the last season, and they could have briefly touched on
everything that motivated the Island story.
But the bottom line is, they just didn't want to tie up the loose
ends, because they didn't care about the loose ends. They really
didn't care about all the shit they were sticking to the wall, it was
all background noise. And that's shitty storytelling.
tdciago
> It wouldn't have taken but one very plot-intense episode
> toward the end in flashback mode... in fact, that's what I thought the
> function of Zoe and the WidCorp. contingent was going to be all about
Sheila Kelley seemed to have the same impression, considering her
interview claiming that Zoe *knows*.
Ooooooooh.
Went nowhere.