Odysseus (Desmond) and Penelope?
TheNewsGuy(Mike)
From Greek Mythology - The Odyssey
=================================
...
INTERESTING!
--
Seinfeld Lists http://tinyurl.com/f7k9d
California Photos http://tinyurl.com/ann2l
Sawyer's Nicknames http://tinyurl.com/gowma
tdciago
TheNewsGuy(Mike) wrote:
> From Greek Mythology - The Odyssey
> =================================
> ...
>
> INTERESTING!
Yes, they finally gave a *blatant* Greek mythology reference, using the
character's name and her words: "... all we really need to survive is
one person who truly loves us. And you have her. I will wait for you,
always. I love you"
But there's more mythology hidden between the lines. I've said that
Desmond represents Atlas, who holds the world on his shoulders. Penny
writes: "I know you go away with the weight of what happened on your
shoulders, and I know the only person who can ever take it off is you."
What's more, Atlas was married to Pleione. Notice the similarity
between the names Pleione and Penelope (Penny). Together, they were
the parents of the seven Pleiades, whose name means "to sail." The
Pleiades star cluster is known as the sailing sisters.
The Greek poet Hesiod wrote:
"And if longing seizes you for sailing the stormy seas,
when the Pleiades flee mighty Orion
and plunge into the misty deep
and all the gusty winds are raging,
then do not keep your ship on the wine-dark sea
but, as I bid you, remember to work the land."
In last week's episode, Charlie (Orpheus) threw seven Virgin Mary
statues (the seven heavenly sisters) into the ocean, while Locke
(Orion) watched. Desmond then shows up in a boat with booze (wine-dark
sea?). I love all the symbolism.
>From the casting call descriptions for Penelope and Charles Widmore
(whose first name was originally going to be Cameron), I speculated
that they would represent Danae and Acrisius. An oracle predicted that
Danae would bear a son who would kill his grandfather, Acrisius. So
Acrisius had Danae locked in a bronze room, to keep her away from men.
But Zeus appeared to Danae as a shower of gold, and impregnated her.
Danae bore a son she named Perseus. When Acrisius discovered the baby,
he placed Danae and Perseus in a chest and set it out to sea. (I think
this is depicted at the beginning of "Clash of the Titans.")
On "Lost," instead of actually imprisoning Penny, Mr. Widmore keeps
Desmond's letters from her by putting them in a box. He also has a box
of bribe money for Desmond. Penny later says that if one is rich
enough and determined enough, one can find anybody, just as the
determined Zeus got to Danae as a shower of gold.
rob...@bestweb.net
> Yes, they finally gave a *blatant* Greek mythology reference,
Unsubtle enough even for me. But it looks as if THIS Odysseus didn't
acquit himself well in HIS military service. Did you notice how he
"got out" of the cave he was imprisoned in by "poking it" in the "eye"?
And how "Nobody" was in charge? I'd liken Kelvin's wearing of a
hazmat suit to wearing of sheepskin, but that'd be a stretch.
> Penny later says that if one is rich
> enough and determined enough, one can find anybody,
Which was an obvious PRACTICAL lesson the makers of "Lost" meant for
us. That's to explain various circumstances in which they've put
certain characters together.
> just as the
> determined Zeus got to Danae as a shower of gold.
Which fits Sawyer's remark to Hugo about the bird.
Robert
cop...@yahoo.com
> From Greek Mythology - The Odyssey
> =================================
> ...
>
> INTERESTING!
So who is going to appear in the role of Calypso?
Brandon
tdciago
> Unsubtle enough even for me. But it looks as if THIS Odysseus didn't
> acquit himself well in HIS military service.
We may find out that Desmond couldn't blindly follow an order he knew
to be wrong. Defy the gods, and ye shall pay dearly, as Odysseus
learned after the incident with Polyphemus.
> Did you notice how he
> "got out" of the cave he was imprisoned in by "poking it" in the "eye"?
> And how "Nobody" was in charge? I'd liken Kelvin's wearing of a
> hazmat suit to wearing of sheepskin, but that'd be a stretch.
The sheepskin was in the cockpit of flight 815. In that case, it
represented the Golden Fleece. But the people pushing the button in
the Swan were certainly acting like sheep. And they did find a glass
eye in the Arrow bunker. Maybe Polyphemus had been there. Locke (the
original Lostie Odysseus) said he'd looked into the eye of the island.
> Which fits Sawyer's remark to Hugo about the bird.
Hercules (Hurley) has a history with birds. He killed the eagle,
Ethon, who was eating Prometheus' liver. He also slew the Stymphalian
birds as one of his twelve labors:
"These murderous birds lived around Lake Stymphalos. Their claws and
beaks were sharp as metal and their feathers flew like darts. Hercules
scared them out of their nests with a rattle and then killed them with
the poison arrows he had made from the Hydra's blood." (
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0882073.html )
Interesting that their feathers flew like darts ...
Watch out, Mr. Cluck.
him...@animail.net
tdciago wrote:
> Yes, they finally gave a *blatant* Greek mythology reference, using the
> character's name and her words: "... all we really need to survive is
> one person who truly loves us. And you have her. I will wait for you,
> always. I love you"
Can you provide the text and translation? I don't recall the original
Penelope saying anything like this, nor did my search of the online
text (http://www.online-literature.com/booksearch.php) come up with
anything. My own (admittedly dim) recollection is that Penelope's
loyalty to Oddyseus relates more to her own virtue and ideas of
morality and marriage than modern ideas about romantic love.
OTOH, Oddyseus did win Penelope in a foot race which is how we first
saw him (running) so that might be a direct reference.
>
> But there's more mythology hidden between the lines. I've said that
> Desmond represents Atlas, who holds the world on his shoulders. Penny
> writes: "I know you go away with the weight of what happened on your
> shoulders, and I know the only person who can ever take it off is you."
Yeah, but Atlas wasn't married to Penelope. Oddyseus was. And
Oddyseus is a classic trickster hero and lead. Desmond is neither of
these things. And if he's holding the world on his shoulders, he just
dropped it. Personally, I think Locke is a better candidate for
Atlas...maybe also Eko.
>
> What's more, Atlas was married to Pleione. Notice the similarity
> between the names Pleione and Penelope (Penny).
Well, they both start with P, but so do a lot of Greek names.
> In last week's episode, Charlie (Orpheus) threw seven Virgin Mary
> statues (the seven heavenly sisters) into the ocean, while Locke
> (Orion) watched. Desmond then shows up in a boat with booze (wine-dark
> sea?). I love all the symbolism.
Glad you're enjoying it, but I don't think it's deliberate on the part
of the writers. Nothing to stop you making the connections which are
cool, but I think you should take the credit.
>
> >From the casting call descriptions for Penelope and Charles Widmore
> (whose first name was originally going to be Cameron), I speculated
> that they would represent Danae and Acrisius. An oracle predicted that
> Danae would bear a son who would kill his grandfather, Acrisius. So
> Acrisius had Danae locked in a bronze room, to keep her away from men.
> But Zeus appeared to Danae as a shower of gold, and impregnated her.
> Danae bore a son she named Perseus. When Acrisius discovered the baby,
> he placed Danae and Perseus in a chest and set it out to sea. (I think
> this is depicted at the beginning of "Clash of the Titans.")
>
> On "Lost," instead of actually imprisoning Penny, Mr. Widmore keeps
> Desmond's letters from her by putting them in a box. He also has a box
> of bribe money for Desmond. Penny later says that if one is rich
> enough and determined enough, one can find anybody, just as the
> determined Zeus got to Danae as a shower of gold.
Combining too many myths here. They're pretty universal stories, so
you can find anything you want in them if you keep mixing and matching.
But if we stick to Oddyseus and Penelope, a better link might be Mr.
Widmore's machinations to marry his daughter to someone "appropriate."
Sounds like Penelope's suitors...although I don't recall her father
exerting any pressure; I think it was more community pressure that a
woman should not live alone like that.
himiko
tdciago
him...@animail.net wrote:
> Can you provide the text and translation? I don't recall the original
> Penelope saying anything like this, nor did my search of the online
> text (http://www.online-literature.com/booksearch.php) come up with
> anything. My own (admittedly dim) recollection is that Penelope's
> loyalty to Oddyseus relates more to her own virtue and ideas of
> morality and marriage than modern ideas about romantic love.
The words I quoted were from Penny's letter to Desmond, and serve to
emphasize the idea that she will always wait for him, just as Penelope
waited for Odysseus. I didn't mean that the text of the letter came
from "The Odyssey."
By the same token, when Locke and Helen were playing these mythological
roles, Helen said she liked bald men, Locke said he wasn't bald, and
Helen replied, "I can wait." Then she said she'd been angry about
something for twenty years (the amount of time that Odysseus was away).
> OTOH, Oddyseus did win Penelope in a foot race which is how we first
> saw him (running) so that might be a direct reference.
The boat race is also a reference, since it was Charles Widmore's race,
and Penelope's father, Icarius, was a champion runner who set up the
race to win his daughter, just as Widmore set up the boat race.
> Yeah, but Atlas wasn't married to Penelope. Oddyseus was.
Atlas was married to Pleione (note the similarity in the letters).
Penny Widmore is playing more than one mythological role here, as is
Desmond, and many of the other Losties.
>And
> Oddyseus is a classic trickster hero and lead. Desmond is neither of
> these things. And if he's holding the world on his shoulders, he just
> dropped it. Personally, I think Locke is a better candidate for
> Atlas...maybe also Eko.
The Atlas references for Desmond go deeper than this episode. You can
read more about them on my site:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/lostdogon/
The references to Greek mythology have been in the show from the
beginning, but are more hidden than those in the finale. Maybe
Lindelof and Cuse finally thought it was time to make things more
obvious with Penelope and Desmond.
rob...@bestweb.net
> The references to Greek mythology have been in the show from the
> beginning, but are more hidden than those in the finale. Maybe
> Lindelof and Cuse finally thought it was time to make things more
> obvious with Penelope and Desmond.
Yeah, they were probably ramping it up to see how much it would take
for how many to notice. "Smallville" did the same with Prometheus
allusions, which must've been planned from the beginning, or they
wouldn't've name a certain character Ethan. They were cute about it,
using indirect references such as via "Frankenstein" ("The Modern
Prometheus"), until finally they pretty much laid it open by titling an
episode "Bound".
Robert