"Oedipus Wrecks"
Julie Martin
message.
Fair warning, huh?
I sat down in front of the television tonight, wondering how the hell the
writers would get out of that story arc.
They did it *nicely*, IMHO. And I feel honoured... Anyone see the stock
market electronic ticker-tape in the beginning?
It said, at one point:
FOLCs <some numbers, whatever>
Which, as we all know, stands for "Fans Of Lois and Clark"! Woohoo!
Recognition. Okay, so I'm not on the mailing list (and I'm sure that's
what they were really referring to) but I feel very touched. It's sort of
a tip-of-the-hat to their internet fans.
And I am *ecstatic* that Lois FINALLY caught on to Max's use of his
position. I was bouncing for joy. Finally, this whole amnesia thing is
over. Finally, they can get back to life, as it should be. Finally, an
episode ends *without* Clark's heart breaking.
It was pretty well done in that respect, but as for the cheezy bad-guy...
Bad Brain's brother.. Oh, please. Just give me a good villan, like Lex or
like Baron Sunday. These cheezy bad guys are gonna be the end of the show.
In any case, I'm glad things have been straightened out, and I'm glad
FOLCs were actually semi-mentioned. <happysigh>
I can sleep, now. :)
--
,-_- . .
' |. .| .,-.|-.. .,-. Julie "Juliebug" Martin - Co-Founder of CCANC
|| || ||-'| || || | jma...@nyongwa.montreal.qc.ca
|`-'`''`-'`-'`-'`-| The Group Kid of BONC
/ | ,| S/Andra & Jenn's Maw, Cheryl's Eldest Daughter,
`--' `' Missy & Amy's Aunt and Beth's younger twin. :)
http://www.serve.com/zachary/julie/
"From out of the shadow of her face flashed that wonderous, dazzling smile.
Vicki Krell
>
> I sat down in front of the television tonight, wondering how the hell the
> writers would get out of that story arc.
> They did it *nicely*, IMHO. And I feel honoured... Anyone see the stock
> market electronic ticker-tape in the beginning?
> Completely missed it! I'll have to go back and check my tape
tonight.
> It said, at one point:
>
> FOLCs <some numbers, whatever>
>
> Which, as we all know, stands for "Fans Of Lois and Clark"! Woohoo!
> Recognition. Okay, so I'm not on the mailing list (and I'm sure that's
> what they were really referring to) but I feel very touched. It's sort of
> a tip-of-the-hat to their internet fans.
>
> And I am *ecstatic* that Lois FINALLY caught on to Max's use of his
> position. I was bouncing for joy. Finally, this whole amnesia thing is
> over. Finally, they can get back to life, as it should be. Finally, an
> episode ends *without* Clark's heart breaking.
>
> It was pretty well done in that respect, but as for the cheezy bad-guy...
> Bad Brain's brother.. Oh, please. Just give me a good villan, like Lex or
> like Baron Sunday. These cheezy bad guys are gonna be the end of the show.
By the way, did anyone else notice that the villian's mother
plays Fran Fine's mother on "The Nanny?"
Not only did I love the part when Lois slugged Max in the face,
but I loved the look on Clark's face when Lois said to him
"Clark . ." and he said, "I'm Superman," and she said, "No,
Clark, I KNOW . ." with a huge smile on her face. My husband and
I were really excited.
Other good lines:
"Jimmy Carter?"
"But Charleton Heston is President, right?" (Yes, in the
alternate universe with Tempus)
KalElFan
(MissyToo) writes:
>I'm sure I'll get flamed for the following comments...
No flames from me, Missy! I agree with everything you said. There
was one point you made that I might expand on a bit:
>3 - I liked the news ticker joke of "FOLCs +3 7/8" but personally, felt
>it was a bit of deliberate sucking up on the part of TPTB as a way for
>asking forgiveness. They should just be glad we're here for the long
>haul, rather than the short term.
Your last sentence there may have hit on the real "comment" that
was being made with that. Stocks go up and they go down. The key
is the long term direction. Sometimes people pay too much attention
to *short term* blips and not enough to the long term, just like every
FoLC in the universe seemed to notice that shot and take from it
whatever meaning they want.
Zoomway has a very interesting piece on the AOL boards this morning
that I hope she's going to post here later. It deals with what this entire
episode might really mean. Watch for it.
Sandra McDermin
>I fret a bit about the ratings on this one, because so many said that the
>downer ending to FMN was the last straw, and they simply weren't going to
>tune in anymore. This isn't just the random, and predictable threats from
>fans we saw during the arc, this is from people writing me and saying they
>had their roommates hooked on the show, but they stopped watching because
>of FMN, or someone posted that their mom stopped watching, and she's one
>of the Nielsen families! Now *that's* trouble. The worst part is, if OW
>gets poorer ratings, ABC may look at that and completely misinterpret the
>data, "Hmm, they stayed during the downer stuff, but deserted when the
>couple reconciled" ouch, and I wouldn't put it past them. I'll write ABC
>about this and let them know, and send copies of the e-mail of people who
>were going to hang it up after FMN. I don't know if it will make the
>slightest impression on them, but I want them to know that L&C *together*
>is what I like about the show.
Re your speculation on how ABC will interpret OW ratings:
How could ABC be *so* stupid, or the part of ABC which deals with L&C.
If they cannot see that any drop in the ratings this week has to do with
the successive weeks of many fans, and casual viewers, dealing with a
"wedding arc" they disliked as well as an episode such as FMN which was a
complete waste of an hour, then *I* deserve to run ABC. And, I'm sure I
come a lot cheaper than the current suits. Have they ever heard of
anything called the "lag effect" i.e., results of actions take time to be
disseminated and processed such that said results will appear after a
certain time lag. Sounds like common sense to me.
I am not 100% happy with OW. But, it did something that I have wanted
for over six weeks; and that is, it *killed* this current storyline. I
did not like the way they mercilessly let the victim struggle and gurgle,
however. And, the ending! One big afterthought. (Oh yeah, must have
L&C kiss and say everything will be all right.) Bzzzz. Sorry. Wrong
answer. Everything is not all right. This couple have more issues to
address than a candidate's briefing book. And, considering that this
show has a very poor history of addressing said issues, I have little
hope that L&C will ever "sit down," so to speak, and hash out all that
has happened between them. It's almost as if there is some sort of
conspiracy of silence that descends on the show whenever a relationship
issue must be resolved:
-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
-- Why didn't Clark try to stop Lois' wedding to Lex. It's a mystery to
Lois.
-- Can a kryptonian have children with a human? Never talked about it.
-- Why haven't they made love yet? Not a clue.
And now, I'm sure we'll be able to add:
-- Did Clark have a "real" wedding night with Clonis? We'll never hear
Lois ask.
-- Why didn't Clark prevent Lex from taking Lois in DJ? *I'd* like to
hear the answer to that one. It should be a doozey!
-- What did Wanda and Lex do in that lair? Clark should be more than
curious.
-- Why isn't Lois being questioned by the police over her illegal
activities when she was with Lex? Too inconvenient.
-- Why does Lois fall for every man -- except Clark -- who ever crooked a
finger and thus damaging everything L&C built up prior to the arc? We
deserve an answer to this one.
-- Will Clark ever blow up? No, that's too real.
-- Where was that HIWTHI spiritual bond? Heh Heh. Convenient then, not
convenient now.
-- Will "The Love Doctor" lose his license and be sued by Lois Lane?
Good idea, but sorry no follow-up questions please.
-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
self-indulgent question.)
-- Will this show admit that it's suffering from "the Peter Pan Syndrome"
(never take responsibility; never grow up; never stop giving us Peter Pan
in tights with his sidekick Tinkerbell)? Sorry, a marriage between two
adults -- warts and all -- is verboten in Never Never Land.
Well, let me tell *you* a story, ABC. Once upon a time there was a
pilot, it featured a very attractive, but somewhat emotionally crippled,
couple struggling to find each other in a cold, cruel city -- one of whom
just happened to be Superman. The juxtaposition of reality and fantasy
was interesting and jarring. It promised us a world not quite here and
not quite there. It was smart. Put me a little in mind of "The Singing
Detective" -- very, very strangely enough. Now, it's *all* fantasy,
*with no bite*, because the couple are just figures with the depth of a
kiddie pool. They get in and out of scrapes and go "Whew!" They go over
the waterfall every week and barely get wet. They have anvils dropped on
them from Acme. Just press the reset button and we're back biting into
our morning donut at the Daily Planet "set" doing happy talk -- next
peril, Pauline!
That's the show this has degenerated into lately.
If L&C loses this viewer my dear, myopic suits, now you know why.
The End
Sandy (in D.C.)
smcd...@nas.edu
Brian Schuster
> It's almost as if there is some sort of
>conspiracy of silence that descends on the show whenever a relationship
>issue must be resolved:
>-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
Because she found out about his dark side (see final episode, season one)
>-- Why didn't Clark try to stop Lois' wedding to Lex. It's a mystery to
>Lois.
He did. He tried to get her to realize how dangerous he was, and Lois knows
that Superman was held captive by Lex.
>-- Why haven't they made love yet? Not a clue.
They have said repeatedly they were going to wait until their wedding.
>And now, I'm sure we'll be able to add:
-Schuster
Kay and Chris
: Sandra McDermin <smcd...@nas.edu> wrote:
: > It's almost as if there is some sort of
: >issue must be resolved:
:
: >-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
: Because she found out about his dark side (see final episode, season one)
:
: >-- Why didn't Clark try to stop Lois' wedding to Lex. It's a mystery to
: >Lois.
:
: He did. He tried to get her to realize how dangerous he was, and Lois knows
: that Superman was held captive by Lex.
: >-- Why haven't they made love yet? Not a clue.
:
: They have said repeatedly they were going to wait until their wedding.
:
: >And now, I'm sure we'll be able to add:
:
: -Schuster
:
Zoomway
that I hope she's going to post here later. It deals with what this entire
episode might really mean. Watch for it.<<<
Boy, Kal, you want to get me in trouble<g> Okay, I'll repost it here, but
remember, this is just my interpretation of things, and not at all fact,
just opinion (hope that was enough of a disclaimer :P)
Okay, this is going to be coming to you from a place formerly located on
the wall :) I got the feeling while watching this episode, that David
Simkins was trying to say something that was preying on his mind, but
something he could not afford to say directly. I mean when you think about
it, Simkins isn't just one of the writers, he's also the creative
consultant. So, I figured he'd be more than just a little angry with
having to be told which direction the show had to go. Therefore, I'm going
to recast his epic. I only changed the names of the characters in the
dialogue, but I let the dialogue stay exactly as it was written.
Dr. Deter, the smarmy, condescending jerk will now be played by *ABC*
Clark/Superman will now be played by *FOLC*
Lois Lane will now be played by *The Show.*
Herkimer Johnson will now be played by *The Writers*
Now, on with our story:
ABC: "There's light at the end of the tunnel. It's just a very long
tunnel. FOLC needs to relax."
FOLC: "I understand this is going to take a long time, but you can
appreciate my anxiety."
ABC: "I can't help but feel a little bit like Lex Luthor here"
Later
ABC: "There is no wrong or right. There's only need" (ratings)
later:
FOLC: "I can't do this. I can't. I see The Show struggling and I'm just
supposed to stand there? I'm not used to being this helpless. I don't
trust ABC."
The Writers are riding along smoothly and suddenly hit a speed bump (this
was too good)
The Show: "That was pointless. Long, but pointless. Where do we go now?"
ABC: "I have an idea."
FOLC: "Oh, joy."
Later:
The Show: "ABC, I'm fine!"
ABC: "No, you're not, but you will be if you listen to me."
The Writers interrupt with a call to ABC
The Writers: "It's not gonna work, ABC. Everything I've ever worked for is
going down the toilet. If you don't talk to me, things are gonna get
bad..real bad."
The Show (in ABC's office): "I just want this whole thing to be over
with!"
ABC tells The Show to trust him completely, and then tells The Show, "This
story you're working on means nothing. You love only me."
Let's fast forward to the ending.
ABC is frantically trying to destroy the machine that can put an end to
the story arc.
FOLC arrives and pulls the plug on the runaway arc machine.
The Show remembers who FOLC is. The Show punches ABC in the nose. And then
FOLC and The Show spend a waffy moment getting reacquainted.
The End
Now, I could totally wrong in this analysis, or if it was a metaphor,
Clark could have represented the writers. As you pointed out in a private
e-mail, Deter was always hounding, and hovering over Clark. Anyway, it's a
lot of fun to speculate on. I got the feeling that Roweena might have
represented the hypercritical fan who never hops on usenet to compliment
the show, but always crawls out of the woodwork to attack the show, and
always always always talks about how great 1rst season was by comparison.
So, perhaps the hallowed memory Roweena had of Bad Brain was a metaphor
for first season. No matter how much Herkimer wanted her love, and tried
to dazzle her she said things like "you stink" "you want to make the world
a better place? Then start by leaving it" "Oh, I forgot, you're the weak
one", etc. and nothing but praise for Bad Brain
If the truth be told, I'm probably just projecting my own, long standing
hostility of ABC onto what Simkins wrote. ABC's one job here should be
promoting the show, and they do that very poorly. In reality, I imagagine
I'm no more liked by WB than I am by ABC, and so *I* might be a metaphor
for Roweena, or worse Dr. Deter<g> Hopefully, even if WB views me as a
crackpot (perhaps not far off the mark) I hope they know I'm a crackpot
that has adored this season above all of the others (I think I am in the
yellow pages under crackpot :) I admire the writing staff, and envy the
playground they have to work with. Now if ABC would stop being the bully
on that playground, I'd be grateful.
I fret a bit about the ratings on this one, because so many said that the
downer ending to FMN was the last straw, and they simply weren't going to
tune in anymore. This isn't just the random, and predictable threats from
fans we saw during the arc, this is from people writing me and saying they
had their roommates hooked on the show, but they stopped watching because
of FMN, or someone posted that their mom stopped watching, and she's one
of the Nielsen families! Now *that's* trouble. The worst part is, if OW
gets poorer ratings, ABC may look at that and completely misinterpret the
data, "Hmm, they stayed during the downer stuff, but deserted when the
couple reconciled" ouch, and I wouldn't put it past them. I'll write ABC
about this and let them know, and send copies of the e-mail of people who
were going to hang it up after FMN. I don't know if it will make the
slightest impression on them, but I want them to know that L&C *together*
is what I like about the show.
Zoom (of course, maybe I could be Perry White, telling everyone to stay
calm, it'll be all right, and then going ballistic the minute ABC shows up
"Brain suckers!" nah <g> )
Cheryl Moore
Like what yous said and very clever too You could be right and I hope
that is not what is going to happen. I know that some people make
reference to Remington Steele I do to and of TPTB don't watch they will
do the same thing to the show that was done to that show. And as much as
I would hate to see it I would rather LnC go off the air then become what
the afore mentioned show became a Joke. Deborah Joy Levine I believe
started this thing they should just let her continue leading the
bandwagon and let us FoLc have our fun It is so simple to me.
cherie
KalElFan
(Zoomway) writes:
>Boy, Kal, you want to get me in trouble<g> Okay, I'll repost it here,
>but remember, this is just my interpretation of things, and not at all
>fact just opinion (hope that was enough of a disclaimer :P)
[actual metaphor description deleted, but go back and take a look
because it's good]
You're way beyond trouble by now, Zoom. <g>
As I said on the AOL boards, this is a really brilliant insight,
Zoom. In fact, the best I've read on these boards in the month
I've been reading them regularly.
You can tell from Simkins' writing that he's an extremely bright
and creative guy, so don't put it past him. He seems like a
perfectionist who tries to get every bit he can out of each scene,
shot, and line of dialogue. For example, he knows Lois has to get
her memory back in stages, so how does he do it? He uses old
Charlton Heston movies as a kind of bridge, leading to a great
back-and-forth that has people talking about what he's written
afterwards. ("Hey, did you catch that 'Soylent Green' reference?"
and so on.) I know you liked the Heston stuff, too.
Until I read your post, I thought the "inside baseball" references
to the show and this arc were just random ones. For example
the line where Lois says "I just want this to be over." But one of
the lines that did puzzle me was where Herkimer's mom says
"ever notice how you wait for something and then it isn't worth it"
(I'm paraphrasing from memory.) That line was a bit odd to me.
The transformation of Dr. Max from a potentially serious threat
into a really clueless buffoon also took me by surprise, although
I liked it a lot. Now I like it even more, realizing that Dr. Max is
in fact a metaphor for -- ABC!
Now, I'm sure that out of self-preservation Simkins will deny that
this was his intention, but it's just too good for us FoLC not to run
with it. Let's carry the metaphor further, and *deem* this episode
(Oedipus Wrecks!) to be a Freudian slip on Simkins and the
creative/writing side's part. They didn't mean to call ABC a
meddling, bumbling, clueless, self-important, hedonistic buffoon
deserving of a good punch in the nose, but they couldn't help
themselves! It was just their id talking.
As far as Perry White goes, maybe he represents WB and the
executive producer Robert Singer. They go along with ABC as
long as that ratings ticker tape is up. But if the ticker tape heads
down (which we know it has, at least a bit, over the course of this
arc) then they'll take the side of the creative guys and attack ABC
as the "Brainsuckers!" they really are. Well, producers/WB, your
ox is being gored here and maybe it's time to take a cue from Perry.
Someone else mentioned Twin Peaks and how they tried to drag
things out in that one far too long, killing a good show real fast.
A few more posts to follow on this later, where I try to build a bit
on your initial insight, Zoom, including a suggestion on who
Herkimer and Herkimer's mom really are, metaphorically
speaking.
TERRY HERRIN
Z>FOLC and The Show spend a waffy moment getting reacquainted.
This was brilliant! Truly, one of the most wonderful messages I've read
since I've been reading this group. Whether it's correct or not in no
way diminishes the beauty of what you came up with. Good job! :)
Terry
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---
ş OLXWin 1.00b ş "Call it a hunch" said Quasimodo.
JsJr
writes:
{too much}
What happend to your 100 word max?
<just kidding, I like to read your insights, I'm just pestering you>
<G>
-jsjr
"Doctor, I think our time is just about up" <PUNCH!!!>
Blain Nelson
>-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
Easy. He died before the ceremony was finished.
>-- Why didn't Clark try to stop Lois' wedding to Lex. It's a mystery to
>Lois.
He did. And he did. He tried to stop the wedding by telling her that he
loved her and wanted to marry her. And he did stop the wedding by
leading the assault against Lex that led to his death.
>-- Can a kryptonian have children with a human? Never talked about it.
True.
>-- Why haven't they made love yet? Not a clue.
Because they both wanted to wait until they were married. You now have a
clue.
>And now, I'm sure we'll be able to add:
>-- Did Clark have a "real" wedding night with Clonis? We'll never hear
>Lois ask.
Clark did not have sex with the clone. He spoke about this in minimally
euphemistic language to his parents. That was one of the clues that the
clone was not Lois.
>-- Why didn't Clark prevent Lex from taking Lois in DJ? *I'd* like to
>hear the answer to that one. It should be a doozey!
He claims because his head just was messed up. I agree with this point
big time -- you're dealing with an escaped extremely dangerous multiple
felon like Lex, you grab the car and fly it into the nearest prison and
say "arrest that man" even if your girlfriend dumps you.
Ought to be written in the "How to be Superman" handbook.
>-- What did Wanda and Lex do in that lair? Clark should be more than
>curious.
Might have had sex, but I doubt it. No good reasons why. That should be
a question that is resolved on camera soon -- wasn't time in those
fifteen seconds after her memory was back in OW.
>-- Why isn't Lois being questioned by the police over her illegal
>activities when she was with Lex? Too inconvenient.
She might have been but, with amnesia going on, it's doubtful it was very
productive.
>-- Why does Lois fall for every man -- except Clark -- who ever crooked a
>finger and thus damaging everything L&C built up prior to the arc? We
>deserve an answer to this one.
Her insecurity -- she's drawn to men who will be bad for her. She's also
drawn to Clark.
>-- Will Clark ever blow up? No, that's too real.
Somewhat, but it's kinda a big deal if he goes punching holes through
entire buildings and stuff.
>-- Where was that HIWTHI spiritual bond? Heh Heh. Convenient then, not
>convenient now.
I think it was there. It was just overshadowed by the events of the moment.
>-- Will "The Love Doctor" lose his license and be sued by Lois Lane?
>Good idea, but sorry no follow-up questions please.
Should be.
>-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
>self-indulgent question.)
Maybe she should just find a bag of potato chips?
>-- Will this show admit that it's suffering from "the Peter Pan Syndrome"
>(never take responsibility; never grow up; never stop giving us Peter Pan
>in tights with his sidekick Tinkerbell)? Sorry, a marriage between two
>adults -- warts and all -- is verboten in Never Never Land.
I don't know. I've seen some really encouraging stuff in how they've
developed the relationship -- some real crap too, but I expect crap from
TV. I'd like to see them bring back the Dr. Laura-like shrink and do
some couples counseling before they try hustling into another marriage.
>The End
>Sandy (in D.C.)
>smcd...@nas.edu
Blain
--
The opinions expressed in this message are not only mine, they are yours too.
Aren't you glad I told you? She-yeah, right!
http://www.az.com/~blainn bla...@az.com anon...@anon.twwells.com
<c> 1995 Blain Nelson All Rights Reserved Film rights available
Polly Robinson
thought-out and not condescending. Keep it up!
Polly - aye...@isle.net
LA&D Pipe Band
Polly Robinson
Susan E Stone
: >-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
: Easy. He died before the ceremony was finished.
Nope. She didn't marry him because at the last minute she decided she
*didn't want to*. Clark should know that--maybe it would help him show
more backbone.
: >-- Why haven't they made love yet? Not a clue.
: Because they both wanted to wait until they were married. You now have a
: clue.
But *why*? We've had it explained why Clark is a virgin, and I found it
very plausible that he'd want to wait until he was sure he'd found the
right person. But waiting for *marriage* is another story. People don't
just go around restraining overwhelming biological urges for the heck of
it. All the people I know who are planning to wait for marriage are
doing so because it's an important part of their religion and/or
culture, and we've had no indication that that's the case for Lois or
Clark. Of course, given everything else that hasn't been discussed on
this show, I wouldn't even be surprised if it's revealed that 6 months
ago they got religion while covering the Metropolis Billy Graham
Crusade. ;-)
For the record, I'm a Christian myself, and am not mocking virginity or
waiting until marriage--just the way it's been portrayed on L&C.
: Clark did not have sex with the clone. He spoke about this in minimally
: euphemistic language to his parents. That was one of the clues that the
: clone was not Lois.
But *Lois* doesn't know that....
: >-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
: >self-indulgent question.)
: Maybe she should just find a bag of potato chips?
Or banana-pecan-chocolate chip bread. I could send a good recipe.
--Susan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Susan E. Stone * "And so, may evil beware and may
Penn Biology Dept. Academic Office * good dress warmly and eat lots of
sst...@sas.upenn.edu * fresh vegetables."
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~sstone/ * --The Tick
Lisa Hetherington
: convenient now.
What is "HIWTHI"? and what is "WAFF"? Thanks for indulging a
newbie's questions.
...Lisa
Sandra McDermin
schu...@ids2.idsonline.com (Brian Schuster) wrote:
>Sandra McDermin <smcd...@nas.edu> wrote:
>> It's almost as if there is some sort of
>>conspiracy of silence that descends on the show whenever a relationship
>>issue must be resolved:
>
(1)
>>-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
>
>Because she found out about his dark side (see final episode, season one)
Nope. Absolutely wrong. See my answer to Blain.
(2)
>
>>-- Why didn't Clark try to stop Lois' wedding to Lex. It's a mystery to
>>Lois.
>
>He did. He tried to get her to realize how dangerous he was, and Lois knows
>that Superman was held captive by Lex.
Once again, see my answer to Blain.
(3)
>
>>-- Why haven't they made love yet? Not a clue.
>
>They have said repeatedly they were going to wait until their wedding.
>
Repeatedly? No. *Once.* In VD, Lois says to Clark, I'm glad we decided
to wait. Huh???? When did they decide to wait and why? I must have
gone into the kitchen for coffee when they aired that interesting
discussion. Do TPTB think we would have fallen asleep through that -- no
way brother!!!
Actually, one of the best times to have discussed it was in COTOC when
Clark was accused of fathering a child. Then they could have also
discussed the problem of mixing kryptonian and human genetics -- a very
bad missed opportunity. This lack almost made COTOC a wasted episode,
except for the interesting concept of Superman and the tabloids. That is
one thing I would like to see more of -- how Superman deals with rumor
mongering, the tabloids, speculation about his love life, the mass
marketing of his image, hangers on wanting to make a fast buck, religious
zealots wanting to worship or persecute him -- all very interesting
issues. (I should run this show.)
(See the rest of my answer to the question of sex in my response to
Blain.)
Sandy (in D.C.)
smcd...@nas.edu
Sandra McDermin
which you are responding. Many of the questions I asked have nothing to
do with what "we," the viewers, know but to what Lois and Clark know
about each other. The point was, that they never seem to discuss
anything between themselves, or, at least, we never witness it.
Now let me go to your points one by one:
(1)
bla...@anna.az.com (Blain Nelson) wrote:
>Sandra McDermin <smcd...@nas.edu> writes:
>
>>-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
>
>Easy. He died before the ceremony was finished.
Sorry, wrong answer. "We," the viewers, know why Lois didn't marry Lex,
and it had nothing to do with his supposed death. At the end of Season
1, Lois realized, as we saw when she walked down the aisle towards Lex,
that she had feelings for Clark. When she was in front of the mirror in
her wedding gown, she finally said the name "Lois Lane *Kent*,"
indicating that she had begun thinking about a romantic relationship with
Clark. BUT, Lois and Clark have never discussed this as far as *we*, the
viewers, know. Clark still has not a clue that *Lois* stopped her
wedding to Lex by saying "I can't" before the police and Perry White
barged in; otherwise, we would have had an entirely different season two.
A season where Clark knew Lois had romantic feelings for him -- from
episode uno. I have never seen Lois tell Clark this.
(2)
>
>>-- Why didn't Clark try to stop Lois' wedding to Lex. It's a mystery to
>>Lois.
>
>He did. And he did. He tried to stop the wedding by telling her that he
>loved her and wanted to marry her. And he did stop the wedding by
>leading the assault against Lex that led to his death.
Yes, *Clark* did try to stop the wedding -- in a roundabout way. But, he
was unsuccessful. The only person Lois would have listened to -- and
Clark knew this -- was Superman. Superman didn't do a thing, *as far as
Lois knew,* to inform her of Lex's misdeeds and stop the wedding. That is
what Clark needs to hash out with Lois.
Yes, *we*, the viewers, know what Superman went through. But, Clark
never told Lois that we was in a kryptonite cage in Lex's basement being
slowly and painfully killed in his attempts to stop the wedding. L&C have
never, in our sights, discussed the complicated relationship of Lois,
Lex, and Superman/Clark. All we ever heard was Clark respond by saying
"Ouch!" when Lois brought up the issue in VD.
If they had discussed the events of BatP and HoL, then *we*, the viewers,
would never have had to suffer through the whole "wedding arc" because
Clark would have stopped Lois from going off with Lex. He would have
known that she had feelings for him since season 1 and many of his
insecurities about Lois' feelings for Lex would have been a non-issue by
the time we got to DJ.
(2a)
>-- Can a kryptonian have children with a human? Never talked about it.
True.
And, they never, for reasons beyond comprehension, will -- even though,
in the pilot, Jonathan makes the point to his son that he may never be
able to have the family that a normal man could. In my view, Clark is in
denial about this, and Lois and he should discuss it. I am not saying
they shouldn't have children. I want them to, but it should not be
presumed that they could. That's simply a ridiculous assumption.
(3)
>
>>-- Why haven't they made love yet? Not a clue.
>
>Because they both wanted to wait until they were married. You now have a
>clue.
No, I still don't have a clue and neither do you. Where did you hear
that explanation? *I* heard Lois say to Clark something along the lines
"I'm glad we decided to wait." When did they decide that and why? This
show is primarily about the relationship between Lois and Clark. This is
an important issue between a couple. Why didn't we hear anything about it
up until VD? And, frankly, this couple is conflicted on this issue. In
Supermann, they practically ripped each other's clothes off. They
"virtually" ripped them off in VD. In JSN, they really went after each
other and would have done more if they weren't on a case in Smiley's
office. I'm sorry, despite all of this desire and longing, L&C have
never come out and given *any* reason why they were waiting. (I would
accept any explanation. It doesn't matter to me. I just want one.)
When Lois waited with Lex, it was because she didn't love him -- never
said I love you to Lex. However, that's no excuse with Clark.
>
>>And now, I'm sure we'll be able to add:
(4)
>>-- Did Clark have a "real" wedding night with Clonis? We'll never hear
>>Lois ask.
>
>Clark did not have sex with the clone. He spoke about this in minimally
>euphemistic language to his parents. That was one of the clues that the
>clone was not Lois.
I know! You know! But, Lois *needs* to know, and we need to hear her ask.
Clark may have inferred to his parents that Clonis and he did not have
sex, but, so what? Clark isn't marrying his parents. He's marrying Lois.
If my fiance was kidnapped before my wedding, and I went off with someone
I thought was my fiance on my honeymoon, and if, when all the dust
settled, my fiance never asked me if I slept with the imposter, I'd
wonder whether my fiance had *any* feelings toward me at all.
(5)
>
>>-- Why didn't Clark prevent Lex from taking Lois in DJ? *I'd* like to
>>hear the answer to that one. It should be a doozey!
>
>He claims because his head just was messed up. I agree with this point
>big time -- you're dealing with an escaped extremely dangerous multiple
>felon like Lex, you grab the car and fly it into the nearest prison and
>say "arrest that man" even if your girlfriend dumps you.
>
>Ought to be written in the "How to be Superman" handbook.
Right. I agree. And, Lois needs one "H-E double hockey sticks" of an
answer to this one.
(5)
>
>>-- What did Wanda and Lex do in that lair? Clark should be more than
>>curious.
>
>Might have had sex, but I doubt it. No good reasons why. That should be
>a question that is resolved on camera soon -- wasn't time in those
>fifteen seconds after her memory was back in OW.
I'll bet you any amount of money that it is never resolved on camera. It
will be glossed over as everything else has been. Clark needs to know
what went on between Lois and Lex FINALLY -- for his own sanity and to
combat his unbelieveable insecurity on this issue. Otherwise, if Lex
ever comes back, and he will, Clark will still be wondering "Does she
still love him?" Clark is such a dull bulb these days, that he'd be
wondering this if Lex showed up and grabbed Lois at L&C's 50th wedding
anniversary.
(6)
>
>>-- Why isn't Lois being questioned by the police over her illegal
>>activities when she was with Lex? Too inconvenient.
>
>She might have been but, with amnesia going on, it's doubtful it was very
>productive.
You may be right, but I want to see some consequences of her actions.
This would happen in the real world, amnesia or no. What? Only the
"bad" guys face the consequences of illegal actions? Clark got away with
robbery in ATAI and Lois is getting away with it in DJ.
>
(7)
>>-- Why does Lois fall for every man -- except Clark -- who ever crooked a
>>finger and thus damaging everything L&C built up prior to the arc? We
>>deserve an answer to this one.
>
>Her insecurity -- she's drawn to men who will be bad for her. She's also
>drawn to Clark.
Excuse me, but I thought the writers were making a point this season,
which actually started last year with WWW, that Lois has grown up. We
have an adult here now, who shouldn't be the easy target of everything in
pants -- except, beyond all explanation, Clark Kent. She didn't even
seem to feel anything for *Superman* during this whole wedding mess and
amnesia fiasco, and that makes no sense *whatsoever* considering Lois'
singleminded attachment to Superman throughout the entire run of the
show.
(8)
>
>>-- Will Clark ever blow up? No, that's too real.
>
>Somewhat, but it's kinda a big deal if he goes punching holes through
>entire buildings and stuff.
Emotinally blow-up. Cry. Breakdown. The only woman he ever loved was
repeatedly ripped from him and he was a stone.
(9)
>
>>-- Where was that HIWTHI spiritual bond? Heh Heh. Convenient then, not
>>convenient now.
>
>I think it was there. It was just overshadowed by the events of the moment.
Well, to be honest with ya, I never liked it anyway. But, the writers
introduced it, I didn't. Just to be consistent within *their own
universe* we should have seen Clark zeroing in more on where Lois was,
when she was with Lex, and what she was doing. We should have seen him
realize *much quicker* that Clonis was not Lois. We should have seen
Lois struggling with her feelings for CK/Superman instead of completely
denying them in the last two episodes -- that was extremely inconsistent
behavior.
(10)
>
>>-- Will "The Love Doctor" lose his license and be sued by Lois Lane?
>>Good idea, but sorry no follow-up questions please.
>
>Should be.
Won't be.
(11)
>
>>-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
>>self-indulgent question.)
>
>Maybe she should just find a bag of potato chips?
I'll buy her a six pack to go with it -- gets me through a Saturday
night.
(12)
>
>>-- Will this show admit that it's suffering from "the Peter Pan Syndrome"
>>(never take responsibility; never grow up; never stop giving us Peter Pan
>>in tights with his sidekick Tinkerbell)? Sorry, a marriage between two
>>adults -- warts and all -- is verboten in Never Never Land.
>
>I don't know. I've seen some really encouraging stuff in how they've
>developed the relationship -- some real crap too, but I expect crap from
>TV. I'd like to see them bring back the Dr. Laura-like shrink and do
>some couples counseling before they try hustling into another marriage.
>>The End
>
>>Sandy (in D.C.)
>>smcd...@nas.edu
Blain
I don't expect crap from TV, although I get it often enough. There is no
excuse for kissing the networks tush, inconsistent writing, and no
exploration of character evolving from the interactions of *Lois and
Clark,* not Lois and Lex, or Lois and Deter, or Lois and generic man, or
Clark and his parents, Clark and Jimmy, Clark and Perry...... Need I go
on!
Sandy (from see above)
Bruce McAlary
: They did it *nicely*, IMHO. And I feel honoured... Anyone see the stock
: market electronic ticker-tape in the beginning?
: FOLCs <some numbers, whatever>
: Which, as we all know, stands for "Fans Of Lois and Clark"! Woohoo!
: Recognition. Okay, so I'm not on the mailing list (and I'm sure that's
: what they were really referring to) but I feel very touched. It's sort of
: a tip-of-the-hat to their internet fans.
: In any case, I'm glad things have been straightened out, and I'm glad
: FOLCs were actually semi-mentioned. <happysigh>
: I can sleep, now. :)
I saw it! I was waiting to see if someone else caught it as well.
They know we exist!
--
--Bruce McAlary, Wilsonville, Oregon.
J. L. Dudycha
af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Lisa Hetherington) wrote:
> : -- Where was that HIWTHI spiritual bond? Heh Heh. Convenient then, not
> : convenient now.
>
> What is "HIWTHI"? and what is "WAFF"? Thanks for indulging a
> newbie's questions.
>
> ...Lisa
On this group, nearly all the show titles are referenced by their initials.
We're so nuts that we know them all. HIWTHI is "Home is Where the Heart
is" and "OW" is Oedipus Wrecks, GGGOH is "Green, Green Glow of Home" and so
on.
WAFF, however, is a shortcut to describe the best moments of the show.
WAFF refers to the the "warm & fuzzy feelings" we get from some scenes;
ROTFL refers to others which leave us "rolling on the floor, laughing."
Cheers, and welcome to the land of FOLCs
J.D.
--
dud...@kbs.msu.edu
"Some choices we live not once but a thousand times over, remembering for
the rest of our lives" Richard Bach, Running From Safety
Sherrill C.J. Edwards
>Blain Nelson (bla...@anna.az.com) wrote:
>: Someone wrote:
>: >-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
>: >self-indulgent question.)
>
>: Maybe she should just find a bag of potato chips?
>
>Or banana-pecan-chocolate chip bread. I could send a good recipe.
>
if you just used the chocolate chips....;-)
JsJr
af...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Lisa Hetherington) writes:
> What is "HIWTHI"? and what is "WAFF"? Thanks for indulging a
>newbie's questions.
>
HIWTHI is "Home Is Where The Hurt Is" (the christmas episode)
WAFF means "Warm And Fuzzy Feeling(s) (like what you might have felt
when Lois said "I do" at the end of Oedipus Wrecks.)
-jsjr
MissyToo
good one for me or not, is very simple:
I pay attention to how much of the episode I actually enjoy.
When I'm watching it later on tape and I see how much I have to fast
forward through to get to the enjoyable moments... If I have to skip at
least half of the episode, then I probably didn't like the show much.
Any others out there that do the same?
Missy
"The heart is wiser than the intellect"
Kal El Jr
writes:
>As I said on the AOL boards, this is a really brilliant insight,
>Zoom. In fact, the best I've read on these boards in the month
>I've been reading them regularly.
I'm kinda wondering: where can I find these AOL boards? Where exactly are
they located in AOL?
Brian "Kal El Jr" Wilson
"Love is the most powerful force in the entire universe. If you hold it
in your heart, you can achieve the impossible. And if you have enough
loved ones, then you have an unbeatable army that can overcome all
obstacles." -Myself
TPaschal
writes:
>Brian Schuster (schu...@ids2.idsonline.com) wrote:
>: Sandra McDermin <smcd...@nas.edu> wrote:
>: > It's almost as if there is some sort of
>: >conspiracy of silence that descends on the show whenever a
relationship
>: >issue must be resolved:
>:
>: >-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
>:
>: Because she found out about his dark side (see final episode, season
one)
>:
Actually, that's not correct. While Lois was getting dressed for the
wedding, she was standing in front of her mirror trying out her names.
She said something like "Lois Lane Luthor, Lois Luthor Lane, Lois
Lane.......Kent!" Then when she was walking down the aisle to meet Lex,
she kept having flashbacks of Clark. When it came time for Lois to say "I
do" she instead said "I can't." Right after this is when the police and
Perry came running in to stop the wedding. And as far as we know (of
what's been shown onscreen) Lois has never told Clark that she CHOSE not
to marry Lex. For all we know, Clark may still believe that the only
reason she didn't marry Lex is because the police stopped the wedding!
She tried to tell him in the last minutes of the season 1 finale "The
House of Luthor," but Clark interrupts her and (crossing his fingers
behind his back) tells her that he doesn't really love her and just wants
to be friends and partners.
>: >-- Why didn't Clark try to stop Lois' wedding to Lex. It's a mystery
to
>: >Lois.
>:
>: He did. He tried to get her to realize how dangerous he was, and Lois
>knows
>: that Superman was held captive by Lex.
Actually, we don't know that for sure, either. We've never seen
Clark/Superman tell Lois or anyone else about being held captive in the
Kryptonite cage.
These are just my remembrances, so someone correct me if I've left
anything out! :-)
MissyToo
Just a few thoughts about how the "wedding" might / might not happen this
season:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
On Friday's "Extra" segment, if you look VERY carefully, you can see that
Lois is only wearing an engagement ring on her left hand. The scenes were
from one of the first two eps that Teri's husband, Jon Tenney (Hope I
spelled that right), makes an appearance - the last two eps of this
season. My personal theory is that they will be in mid-elopement, ie: "Do
you Clark, take this woman..." yaddah, yaddah... and then a calamitous
interruption will occur requiring Superman... thus when it looks like he's
in mortal danger or something, we will be greeted with that long-hated
phrase... "To Be Continued" and as we all know, the next season won't
really begin until September probably. Sucks, doesn't it... :)
Later,
MissyToo
I was feeling silly, and decided to let TPTB see how this recent story arc
has really made us feel. (Apologies to John Lennon) :)
The Ballad of Lois and Clark
Standing in the church to get married,
Trying to get to everyone there,
The man in the suit said, "You've got to go back"
You know they didn't even given us a chance
FoLCs you know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be
The way things are going, they’re gonna aggravate me
Cancelled plans for love in the tropics,
Hiding in their bed for a week
The bridegroom said, "Say nothing’s happenin’ in bed"
She said, “I'm only trying to get us some sleep."
FoLCs, you know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be
The way things are going, they’re gonna aggravate me
Had another run-in with Luther, this time all dressed in black
“Wanda,” he said, “You’re out of your head,
but now you can have your Kent back"
FoLCs you know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be
The way things are going, they’re gonna aggravate me
Clonis had a thought to catch Luther,
Fifty bonds tied in a sack
The men from the press said, "We wish you success,
It's good to have the both of you back"
FoLCs you know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be
The way things are going they’re gonna aggravate me
Saving up your hopes for a another day,
giving all your trust to therapy
This time the Doc said, "Oh boy, when I'm through,
Lois won’t love nobody but me. "
FoLCs you know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be
The way things are going they’re gonna aggravate me
Finally made it back where we started,
survived Clonis, Lex, Max and all,
The Suits called to say "Hey, You can make it O.K.,
you can get married in the spring or the fall."
FoLCs you know it ain't easy,
You know how hard it can be
The way things are going, they’re gonna aggravate me
The way things are going, they’re gonna aggravate me
Please forgive the momentary lapse of serious discussion. :)
KalElFan
writes:
[The Ballad of L&C to the tune of The Ballad of John and Yoko]
>Please forgive the momentary lapse of serious discussion. :)
>
>
>Missy
Forgive it? We need more of that stuff. The listserv (I guess it's the
Loiscla listserv?) says the next new episode, It's a Small World
After All, won't be until April 28.
Keep feeling silly. Silly is good for FoLCs facing another four-week
wait.
blankh
> WAFF means "Warm And Fuzzy Feeling(s) (like what you might have felt
> when Lois said "I do" at the end of Oedipus Wrecks.)
Amen to THAT! I was smiling so wide that if my smile got any bigger, my
cheeks would pop!
Sincerely,
Gina Blank =)
blankh
> When I'm watching it later on tape and I see how much I have to fast
> forward through to get to the enjoyable moments... If I have to skip at
> least half of the episode, then I probably didn't like the show much.
> Any others out there that do the same?
Hmm...interesting theory. When I watch episodes I've taped, I don't fast-
forward through them at all! However, I'm thinking seriously about com-
pletely taping over DJ and Seconds. They were too weird. Part 1 was the
really good episode. But, no, I never fast forward through any parts.
Blain Nelson
>: Easy. He died before the ceremony was finished.
>Nope. She didn't marry him because at the last minute she decided she
>*didn't want to*. Clark should know that--maybe it would help him show
>more backbone.
He could certainly be a bit more secure than he has been.
>: Because they both wanted to wait until they were married. You now have a
>: clue.
>But *why*? We've had it explained why Clark is a virgin, and I found it
>very plausible that he'd want to wait until he was sure he'd found the
>right person. But waiting for *marriage* is another story. People don't
>just go around restraining overwhelming biological urges for the heck of
>it. All the people I know who are planning to wait for marriage are
>doing so because it's an important part of their religion and/or
>culture, and we've had no indication that that's the case for Lois or
>Clark. Of course, given everything else that hasn't been discussed on
>this show, I wouldn't even be surprised if it's revealed that 6 months
>ago they got religion while covering the Metropolis Billy Graham
>Crusade. ;-)
Well, considering that there hasn't been a portrayal of religion on the
show that I can recall (of course, I'm quite tired) that wasn't at least
mocking (not to mention JSN), it's doubtful that we're going to find out
that Jonathan and Marth have actually been faithful Lutherans all this
time and that Clark is very devout himself. I don't think we have to --
Superman has always been a personification of what is considered good and
wholesome in this country, and waiting until after marriage for sex is
still considered good and wholesome.
However, religion is not the only reason to not have sex before marriage,
and sex drive is not overwhelming -- strong, but hardly irresistable.
>For the record, I'm a Christian myself, and am not mocking virginity or
>waiting until marriage--just the way it's been portrayed on L&C.
Okay.
>: Clark did not have sex with the clone. He spoke about this in minimally
>: euphemistic language to his parents. That was one of the clues that the
>: clone was not Lois.
>But *Lois* doesn't know that....
Give her a chance -- she's only had her memory back for what, ninety
seconds?
>: >-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
>: >self-indulgent question.)
>: Maybe she should just find a bag of potato chips?
>Or banana-pecan-chocolate chip bread. I could send a good recipe.
Tell you what -- send it to me, and if I start to balloon, I'll send it
on to Teri. Deal?
>--Susan
Blain
--
Wanted: Blain Nelson aka "bla...@az.com" aka "bla...@aol.com"
aka "Rahab the Tyrant" aka "anon...@anon.twwells.com"
Subject is considered armed and legged. Persecutors will be violated.
Finger for PGP key. Homepage: http://www.az.com/~blainn
Sandra McDermin
Another thing to think about....in GGGOH, when Lois stays with the Kents
in Smallville, Martha says (and I paraphrase) Lois can take Clark's room,
and Clark can sleep on the sofa...unless the two of you are....
She seemed to be implying that if they were sleeping together, they could
also do so at the Kent farm. Martha certainly didn't seem fazed by it at
all.
Actually, this has always struck me as a funny scene that seemed very
true to life -- and "straight out of high school", so to speak. Clark
was embarrassed by his mother's "suggestion" because *he knew* that he
and Lois' relationship was not of *that* sort at that time. However, he
also talked a lot about Lois to his parents, and they knew he was
attracted to her, if not loved her. They seemed to always be teasing him
about Lois with subtle comments. Sort of like your parents, knowing you
have a crush on someone, teasing you in that person's presence without
really coming right out with it. Clark must have been wondering if Lois
thought that he had led his parents to believe that something was going
on between them....or that Clark had a thing for her which his parents
knew about.... Very embarrassing.
Anyway, the thing is....I never believed that any of these characters had
a thing against premarital sex between loving, committed adults. I could
cite you other examples to prove that point. So, their waiting, with
each other, seems out of character to me.
Sandy (in D.C.)
smcd...@nas.edu
JsJr
writes:
>Forgive it? We need more of that stuff. The listserv (I guess it's the
>Loiscla listserv?) says the next new episode, It's a Small World
>After All, won't be until April 28.
>
This isn't the listserv, this is the newsgroup. The listserv is mail. I
don't have the list with me, but I'll try to get someone to send you
the info on it, if you want me to.
-jsjr
Susan E Stone
: Well, considering that there hasn't been a portrayal of religion on the
: show that I can recall (of course, I'm quite tired) that wasn't at least
: mocking (not to mention JSN), it's doubtful that we're going to find out
: that Jonathan and Marth have actually been faithful Lutherans all this
: time and that Clark is very devout himself. I don't think we have to --
: Superman has always been a personification of what is considered good and
: wholesome in this country, and waiting until after marriage for sex is
: still considered good and wholesome.
I suppose you may be right, in an abstract sense, that waiting until
marriage is still considered good and wholesome. My personal experience
has been that it's considered really strange. :)
Anyway, my whole problem with Lois and Clark waiting is that I'd be
willing to bet a good portion of my salary that it has nothing to do with
what the creative team behind the show thinks makes sense for the
characters, but that some among TPTB are a) treating CK as an icon, "a
personification of what is considered good and wholesome in this
country," rather than as a well-rounded, realistic *character*, and b)
making a rather crass and cynical bid to please the "Family Values"
contingent of TV viewers.
I was glad to see it revealed that Clark is a virgin, because that made
so much sense--he'd never been in a serious relationship before, and for
several reasons I just couldn't see him having sex casually. But I
haven't seen any good (as in believable) reasons for them to still be
waiting. All they've said is that they decided to wait. Well, why?
Even something like "we've waited this long, let's wait a few more weeks
so our honeymoon will be really special" would've been reasonably
plausible, but they didn't give us that.
: >But *Lois* doesn't know that....
: Give her a chance -- she's only had her memory back for what, ninety
: seconds?
Well, if I thought they were really going to deal with the issue, I'd
agree. However, I'm sure they'll ignore it. (And yes, I'm feeling
cynical today.)
: >: >-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
: >: >self-indulgent question.)
: >: Maybe she should just find a bag of potato chips?
: >Or banana-pecan-chocolate chip bread. I could send a good recipe.
: Tell you what -- send it to me, and if I start to balloon, I'll send it
Maybe we should start a recipe book for ways to gain much-needed weight
KalElFan
writes:
>This isn't the listserv, this is the newsgroup. The listserv is mail. I
>don't have the list with me, but I'll try to get someone to send you
>the info on it, if you want me to.
Thanks, jsjr, but I think you misunderstood my post. It's not your fault
because my comment came out of the blue like that. What happened
was someone on the AOL boards posted the schedule there that they
obtained from the listserv, and I was kind of passing on the info from
that
AOL post. I know what the listserv is now, although I didn't about five
or six weeks ago except in the most general way. The first person who
mentioned it to me in an e-mail was very helpful, but when she mentioned
it the first time here's an excerpt from how I responded only half
tongue-in-cheek:
"[name], I need your help! You have struck fear into my heart,
and here's why... [the] Listserv is not one of the sources I used
in the L&C search. In fact I've never used it, and when I saw
your e-mail I thought maybe we were talking about the same
thing. But then I looked it up in a book, and I saw it described
as a mail system carried over from the IBM mainframe
environment, similar in concept to Usenet but apparently still
distinct. "My God!" I exclaimed, have I been using stone
knives and bearskins like Spock had to in "City on the Edge
of Forever?" All along, have I been trying to fit a square peg
in a round hole? Is there this much easier way to find out
stuff, called Listserv? Is Listserv the way, the light, and the
future? Are all those people on Usenet laughing at me,
wondering why this newbie hasn't figured out that everything
he ever wanted to know about L&C or anything else, is just
around the corner there at Listserv? Even worse, will all the
accountants who read the [manual] wonder how I ever passed
my exams? Is my entire future jeopardized by this "Listserv
blind spot?" Is it time to hang up my cleats?
This is why you must help me. I assume you can. I always
assume that anyone with an "edu" suffix can. Please tell me
that... when I clicked on AOL's internet GUI this year and
then clicked on the newsgroup icon and then simply entered
alt.tv.lois-n-clark, that I was doing something very similar
to what most people do who have an account with any ISP.
Please tell me that Listserv is not something that your
average dumb accountant would use or even know about,
and that I don't need to hang up my cleats."
Anyway, jsjr, I was meaning to use that sometime and you
just gave me the opportunity. I already used the Spock and
edu suffix thing in another post somewhere. We writer-
accountants recycle things, you know. Just like the ones
at ABC.
McInnes
>
> Re: Blain and Susan's conversation on why Clark and Lois are "waiting"
> until they are married, they've said:
>
> >>: Because they both wanted to wait until they were married. You now have a
> >>: clue.
> >
> >>But *why*? We've had it explained why Clark is a virgin, and I found it
> >>very plausible that he'd want to wait until he was sure he'd found the
> >>right person. But waiting for *marriage* is another story. People don't
and/or culture, and we've had no indication that that's the case for
Lois or Clark. Of course, given everything else that hasn't been
discussed on this show, I wouldn't even be surprised if it's revealed
that 6 months ago they got religion while covering the Metropolis Billy
Graham Crusade. ;-)<<
> >
> >show that I can recall (of course, I'm quite tired) that wasn't at least
> >mocking (not to mention JSN), it's doubtful that we're going to find out
> >that Jonathan and Marth have actually been faithful Lutherans all this
> >time and that Clark is very devout himself. I don't think we have to --
> >Superman has always been a personification of what is considered good and
> >wholesome in this country, and waiting until after marriage for sex is
> >still considered good and wholesome.
> >
Sorry to mess up your theory, but you don't have to "have religion"
to think LL and CK should wait. I guess you couldn't get much
more of an atheist than I am. But it sure makes sense for CK to
wait, even if *he's* sure Lois is *the* one for him. The writers
may be just assuming he can have kids, but they're about the only
ones (if you were in on any of the discussion that has often taken
over here, especially last summer.
Knowing it takes control to handle his powers (he virtually
admits this to Lois in UW when he says she needs to learn control,
and think of how she nearly hurt him smashing the table in one
scene) he would have to be worried about his reactions. some people
keep arguing he can control himself, *but he can't know for sure*,
and since he was willing to sacrifice everything for Lois (DToSC)
then he wouldn't dare risk harm to her (supposedly why he let her
go with Lex, but that is stretching crediblity too far). So,
he delays until he knows she is ready/has committed her life *and*
he feels safer. (Dont' ask how he'll find out - that's led to
some hilarious posts in the past. I'll let your imagination
handle that one!)
So what about Lois? She's admitted in the premier to at least
one affair, and that it ended very badly when Claude stole her
story and left without a word. So, maybe she has decided to wait
until that very last step of commitment that she has been so
reluctant to take - remember, she took the same tack with Lex
in House of Luthor. At the stage they're at for the moment, she
probably needs time to sort out her memories before getting
involved with a physical relationship that would complicate
things even more. But even before that, it was quite clear she
was still scared of getting hurt. Her logic may say otherwise,
but her past experience and emotion and decisions will still
be keeping her hesitant. *And*, if she has any consideration
for CK, she'd respect *his* decision to wait.
Also, is it really so hard to understand the idea of saving
something for a special moment in your life? Think of something
you *really* love but don't get too often. (Lois is thinking
of a hot fudge sundae.:)) If you had it for breakfast, lunch
and dinner, then got offered it for a really special occasion,
how special would it seem to you then? Just another one of a
series of the same thing, and it may be very nice, but never
*quite* as special as the first time you tasted it. So LL and CK
have the willpower to wait and have something really special for
their first night together......sometimes the anticipation of
an event adds alot to the event itself. Ask any wee kid what it
feels like to anticipate their birthday, or Christmas, or any religious
holiday, or their first drama production, or their first car,
or their first time playing for the school team, or the start of a
special holiday trip, or.....you get the idea. I feel sorry for
you if you don't.
Louette
Sandra McDermin
Louette:
The point in *my* response wasn't that they shouldn't wait. (You didn't
see my first post on this, I am assuming.) But, that there was no reason
given for their waiting. I don't care whether they wait, but I want to
know why.
In VD, the subject was introduced and dropped in one sentence..."I'm glad
we waited...." Well, then *I* waited to hear why *they* waited, and I
got nothing. Nada. That was it.
I watch this show for the relationship between Lois and Clark/Superman,
not to see Superman save the day each week, so I really want to get the
relationship stuff up on screen so that I too, as an interested viewer,
can be privy to the whys and whererfores of such an important aspect of
their coupledom. (Made that word up.)
I too can think of many good reasons why they should wait, including the
one you cite about Clark not knowing how his a ....parts work in a "real
world" situation. Practicing for him, as Superman, would have been
problematic if there were "unintended results;" however, we only got a
vague reference to this line of reasoning when Clark begins to explain to
Lois that he's been a "very patient man."
Believe me, Louette, I know the virtues of waiting for things. In my
time, I've waited a long time for many, *many* things....You get my
drift.
But, anyway, since I've been living vicariously through these characters
lately, I wouldn't mind if they moved the show to pay per for a "very
special" Lois and Clark : - ))))
(Oh, by the way, as an aside....I will never take Lois' waiting with Lex
as a good answer to the sex question. Lois *did not* love Lex and knew
it deep down. She never even said it to him. She was trying, even if
subconciously, to put off the ultimate moment with Lex as long as she
reasonably could. But, waiting for CK...oooh, Lois has already
demonstrated that that is a toughy and, if it wasn't for the numerous
interruptions they've had, I think CK's patience would have been a done
deal episodes ago.)
Sandy (in D.C.)
smcd...@nas.edu
Sandra McDermin
Sandra McDermin <smcd...@nas.edu> wrote:
>
>But, anyway, since I've been living vicariously through these characters
>lately, I wouldn't mind if they moved the show to pay per for a "very
>special" Lois and Clark : - ))))
>smcd...@nas.edu
>
Just correcting myself: Of course, I meant to say PAY PER VIEW! <G>
(I should learn to type slower, and think.)
Sandy (in D.C.)
smcd...@nas.edu
Karen Fung
>In VD, the subject was introduced and dropped in one sentence..."I'm glad
>we waited...." Well, then *I* waited to hear why *they* waited, and I
>got nothing. Nada. That was it.
I sort of got the impression he waited because he was an alien. From
this line, probably, "Lois, I'm not from here. (something about waiting
for the person he could share everything with and if he was supposed to
have a life on Earth)."
Karen Fung, Talking Extraordinaire
gf...@unix.dsoe.com
Canada
LC:TNAoS:"It's good TV! It's fun for the whole family!"
Blain Nelson
>Okay Blain, with all due respect, let me explain the gist of the post to
>which you are responding. Many of the questions I asked have nothing to
>do with what "we," the viewers, know but to what Lois and Clark know
>about each other. The point was, that they never seem to discuss
>anything between themselves, or, at least, we never witness it.
No disrespect inferred or implied.
I understand that part, but we're stuck with a perspective on this
imaginary world in which almost everything that happens doesn't appear in
our vision. I would like to see more of the things you are asking about,
and I *completely* agree that the focus on the show is on the
relationship between L&C.
>Now let me go to your points one by one:
Okie.
>(1)
>bla...@anna.az.com (Blain Nelson) wrote:
>>Sandra McDermin <smcd...@nas.edu> writes:
>>
>>>-- Why didn't Lois marry Lex? Clark does not know.
>>
>>Easy. He died before the ceremony was finished.
>Sorry, wrong answer. "We," the viewers, know why Lois didn't marry Lex,
>and it had nothing to do with his supposed death. At the end of Season
>1, Lois realized, as we saw when she walked down the aisle towards Lex,
>that she had feelings for Clark. When she was in front of the mirror in
>her wedding gown, she finally said the name "Lois Lane *Kent*,"
>indicating that she had begun thinking about a romantic relationship with
>Clark. BUT, Lois and Clark have never discussed this as far as *we*, the
>viewers, know. Clark still has not a clue that *Lois* stopped her
>wedding to Lex by saying "I can't" before the police and Perry White
>barged in; otherwise, we would have had an entirely different season two.
>A season where Clark knew Lois had romantic feelings for him -- from
>episode uno. I have never seen Lois tell Clark this.
Okay, I've been called on the fact that Lois had actually stopped the
wedding before Lex tried to play Superman in his own way -- you got me.
>(2)
>>
>>He did. And he did. He tried to stop the wedding by telling her that he
>>loved her and wanted to marry her. And he did stop the wedding by
>>leading the assault against Lex that led to his death.
>Yes, *Clark* did try to stop the wedding -- in a roundabout way. But, he
>was unsuccessful. The only person Lois would have listened to -- and
>Clark knew this -- was Superman. Superman didn't do a thing, *as far as
>Lois knew,* to inform her of Lex's misdeeds and stop the wedding. That is
>what Clark needs to hash out with Lois.
That one is explainable -- he was very much trying to keep Clark and
Superman separate in her mind because he wanted her to love Clark (who he
is) rather than Superman (what he can do). She had made it very clear
that she was drawn to Superman and not Clark ("I'm sorry, but, under the
circumstances, I can't believe that." -- or something darn close. One of
the best lines from series one IMO)(Up there with "And the heat goes on.")
For him to take a more active role in turning her from Lex as Superman
would have raised some big questions in not only her mind -- the same
questions that should have come up during the arc -- about why Superman
is acting exactly the way Clark should be (the way her father was
noticing how close she was to Superman).
Finally, Clark has always had a concern about trying to hard to make "the
other guy" look bad in her eyes (or so it seems to me). He wanted her to
come to the conclusion that he was the one she wanted on her own.
>Yes, *we*, the viewers, know what Superman went through. But, Clark
>never told Lois that we was in a kryptonite cage in Lex's basement being
>slowly and painfully killed in his attempts to stop the wedding. L&C have
>never, in our sights, discussed the complicated relationship of Lois,
>Lex, and Superman/Clark. All we ever heard was Clark respond by saying
>"Ouch!" when Lois brought up the issue in VD.
Or maybe this is something that happened in this other world during the
time we weren't watching them. It sure would be nice to have this tied
into a nice little bow, but I don't know that it's going to happen.
>If they had discussed the events of BatP and HoL, then *we*, the viewers,
>would never have had to suffer through the whole "wedding arc" because
>Clark would have stopped Lois from going off with Lex. He would have
>known that she had feelings for him since season 1 and many of his
>insecurities about Lois' feelings for Lex would have been a non-issue by
>the time we got to DJ.
I'm not so sure about this, because I'm not sure that knowing of the
feelings for him that she had in season 1 would have done him a whole
bunch of good -- remember that she didn't know him well enough in those
days to have any really deep feelings for him. Yes, she was flattered
that he was attracted to her, and yes, she found herself saying "Lois
Lane Kent" in the mirror, but she still turned him down and was willing
to accept his "I lied" explanation. I think she was attracted or
interested in him at that stage, but that's about it (unless we buy the
"they were fated to be together no matter what" stuff, in which case
nothing really matters because they *will* be married and things will work
out no matter what happens). The deeper feelings came later, and he was
there to watch them grow.
And there is nothing that gets in the way of insecurity about old
boyfriends completely. Fears don't have to be rational.
>(2a)
>And, they never, for reasons beyond comprehension, will -- even though,
>in the pilot, Jonathan makes the point to his son that he may never be
>able to have the family that a normal man could. In my view, Clark is in
>denial about this, and Lois and he should discuss it. I am not saying
>they shouldn't have children. I want them to, but it should not be
>presumed that they could. That's simply a ridiculous assumption.
I don't know about this either. I think they're taking this in good
stages -- they are focussing on building a married life together and
agree that they wish to have a family. Interfertility is not required
for them to have a family -- Clark knows first-hand the possibilities of
adoption (just as Lois knows first-hand the dysfunctional posibilities of
biological families).
I think it could be really interesting if it turns out that they are not
interfertile after the wedding -- in a couple seasons preferably -- and
then look into adopting one of the kids from the orphanage he's helped out.
>(3)
>>
>>Because they both wanted to wait until they were married. You now have a
>>clue.
>No, I still don't have a clue and neither do you. Where did you hear
>that explanation? *I* heard Lois say to Clark something along the lines
>"I'm glad we decided to wait." When did they decide that and why? This
>show is primarily about the relationship between Lois and Clark. This is
>an important issue between a couple. Why didn't we hear anything about it
>up until VD? And, frankly, this couple is conflicted on this issue. In
>Supermann, they practically ripped each other's clothes off. They
>"virtually" ripped them off in VD. In JSN, they really went after each
>other and would have done more if they weren't on a case in Smiley's
>office. I'm sorry, despite all of this desire and longing, L&C have
>never come out and given *any* reason why they were waiting. (I would
>accept any explanation. It doesn't matter to me. I just want one.)
>When Lois waited with Lex, it was because she didn't love him -- never
>said I love you to Lex. However, that's no excuse with Clark.
I agree that their behavior has been a bit self-contradictory, but don't
consider it all that unusual. I know people who feel very strongly that
sex should not happen before marriage, yet push the edges of that rule
pretty heavily sometimes.
I've addressed the religious aspects of this question elsewhere recently,
so I won't dredge them up again.
I do think that part of the reason is that Lois has learned the hard way
what happens when sex happens too early in a relationship, and both of
them would have reasons for wanting to do things "by the book."
>(4)
>I know! You know! But, Lois *needs* to know, and we need to hear her ask.
>Clark may have inferred to his parents that Clonis and he did not have
>sex, but, so what? Clark isn't marrying his parents. He's marrying Lois.
>If my fiance was kidnapped before my wedding, and I went off with someone
>I thought was my fiance on my honeymoon, and if, when all the dust
>settled, my fiance never asked me if I slept with the imposter, I'd
>wonder whether my fiance had *any* feelings toward me at all.
Okay, but, in fairness, she's only had her memory back for a couple
minutes of show-time, and it seemed more important to her to let him know
that she remembered who he was an how much she loved him. It would
certainly have seemed weird if she had punched out Deeter (sp?) and then
turned around and punched him and said "So, did you sleep with that
floozy clone!?"
The most I expect to see about this is either some passing indication
that they've talked through a whole bunch of stuff about the implications
of the arc stuff, and have made some kind of peace about it. They both
have reasons to be insecure about what happened during the arc, and
perhaps that will give them a reason to push the wedding back a ways so
they can work through that stuff.
>(5)
>Right. I agree. And, Lois needs one "H-E double hockey sticks" of an
>answer to this one.
Yeah.
>(5)
>I'll bet you any amount of money that it is never resolved on camera. It
>will be glossed over as everything else has been. Clark needs to know
>what went on between Lois and Lex FINALLY -- for his own sanity and to
>combat his unbelieveable insecurity on this issue. Otherwise, if Lex
>ever comes back, and he will, Clark will still be wondering "Does she
>still love him?" Clark is such a dull bulb these days, that he'd be
>wondering this if Lex showed up and grabbed Lois at L&C's 50th wedding
>anniversary.
Clark has done some really stupid things. I like that, strangely
enough. I like it that Superman isn't Perfectman. He can do feats of
strength that I can never touch, but he can still get his girlfriend mad
because he made a big bone-head play the way I do sometimes. Lois has
done some pretty stupid stuff as well -- which can be annoying but
doesn't mean that anything's going wrong.
>(6)
>>
>>She might have been but, with amnesia going on, it's doubtful it was very
>>productive.
>You may be right, but I want to see some consequences of her actions.
>This would happen in the real world, amnesia or no. What? Only the
>"bad" guys face the consequences of illegal actions? Clark got away with
>robbery in ATAI and Lois is getting away with it in DJ.
>>
Wouldn't that be cool? I don't think things work like that in TVland,
but I think it'd be great if they did. Clark has a pretty strong defense
if he needs it -- he committed the crimes under duress. But it would be
good for him to go to court another time or two to work out some of these
details.
>(7)
>>
>>Her insecurity -- she's drawn to men who will be bad for her. She's also
>>drawn to Clark.
>Excuse me, but I thought the writers were making a point this season,
>which actually started last year with WWW, that Lois has grown up. We
>have an adult here now, who shouldn't be the easy target of everything in
>pants -- except, beyond all explanation, Clark Kent. She didn't even
>seem to feel anything for *Superman* during this whole wedding mess and
>amnesia fiasco, and that makes no sense *whatsoever* considering Lois'
>singleminded attachment to Superman throughout the entire run of the
>show.
Adults don't happen overnight. Immature patterns are always just a
hairsbreadth under the surface, and frequently come out when the going
gets tough.
Of course, I'd like to know why her head injuries resulted in complete
amnesia without causing any other neurological damage. She didn't even
have to get her head shaved.
>(8)
>>
>>>-- Will Clark ever blow up? No, that's too real.
>>
>Emotinally blow-up. Cry. Breakdown. The only woman he ever loved was
>repeatedly ripped from him and he was a stone.
It's the macho thing. Keep your emootions under control unless they're
anger. It's crap, but it happens a lot.
>(9)
>>
>Well, to be honest with ya, I never liked it anyway. But, the writers
>introduced it, I didn't. Just to be consistent within *their own
>universe* we should have seen Clark zeroing in more on where Lois was,
>when she was with Lex, and what she was doing. We should have seen him
>realize *much quicker* that Clonis was not Lois. We should have seen
>Lois struggling with her feelings for CK/Superman instead of completely
>denying them in the last two episodes -- that was extremely inconsistent
>behavior.
I think the bond thing was much more subtle -- we had it when Clark was
sick and got better, and we had it with the guru guy, and that was it.
It doesn't seem to be anything like a beacon that Clark can hone in on to
find her.
I would like to see what happened between the wedding and them being in
the bedroom. I have no idea how Clark could be fooled that long without
noticing anything.
>(11)
>>
>>>-- Lois regained her memory; will she find her lost body? (Sorry, my
>>>self-indulgent question.)
>>
>>Maybe she should just find a bag of potato chips?
>I'll buy her a six pack to go with it -- gets me through a Saturday
>night.
Teri with a beer-belly. Interesting mental image.
>(12)
>>
>>I don't know. I've seen some really encouraging stuff in how they've
>>developed the relationship -- some real crap too, but I expect crap from
>>TV. I'd like to see them bring back the Dr. Laura-like shrink and do
>>some couples counseling before they try hustling into another marriage.
>I don't expect crap from TV, although I get it often enough. There is no
>excuse for kissing the networks tush, inconsistent writing, and no
>exploration of character evolving from the interactions of *Lois and
>Clark,* not Lois and Lex, or Lois and Deter, or Lois and generic man, or
>Clark and his parents, Clark and Jimmy, Clark and Perry...... Need I go
>on!
Well, I can't fix your expectations, and I don't think either of us will
live long enough to see crap-free TV (if it ever happened, it would be
killed without a trace IMO). I'll accept writing that is better than
average -- which I think we've got -- and development of the story that
has Lois and Clark more closely imitating actual people than any other
treatment of the characters in live-action -- which I think we've got
also.
I have no problem holding the writers to a higher standard than they are
functioning it -- they need the tension in that direction to maybe even
maintain their quality level. I just don't invest much emotion into this
outside the hour I watch it every week (or two this time of year).
>Sandy (from see above)
Blain
--
Blain Nelson bla...@az.com anon...@anon.twwells.com
Anger is a normal healthy emotion --
-- Abuse is a choice.
http://www.az.com/~blainn/dv <-- see who in your life is affected by abuse.