Jack and Clair question...
nelfilm
I recently began during the last 3 months watching L&O on A&E (then NBC,
USA, and now TNT). TNT, seemingly out of the goodness of their little
hearts, is the only one of the 4 networks showing any of the eps in order. I
know it is the off season for USA and NBC. With A&E jumping around 8
different seasons it is hard to get a correct picture of the continuing
storylines of the main characters.
A few weeks ago A&E showed the first McCoy ep (season 5). In this eps Jack
and Clair meet in his office while he is changing his cloths behind the
door. As Clair asks him about his previous lovers/assistants she sneaks a
little peak at him changing.
Over the course of the eps of season 5 I have been able to watch there seems
to be more late nights in the office, a more relaxed air, a lot dinners out,
and a lot of food sharing between the two then any others through out the 11
seasons.
A&E just showed Aftershock the last eps of season 5 in which Clair is
killed. While the five main characters do some soul searching after the
execution there seems to be an underlying Jack and Clair story. After seeing
the execution Jack helps Clair make an excuse to get out of work. He
beeps/calls her later and sets up a meeting at a bar neither of them
frequent. Lenny stumbles. Jack being drunk and Clair having kept him waiting
decides to leave but not before mentioning to Lenny he is waiting for a
female someone. When Clair shows up after Jack has already gone and Lenny
realizes she was the one Jack was waiting for it was like all the pieces of
a puzzle coming together for him.
So... after all that...the question is...
was the relationship between Jack and Clair similar to that of his with
previous assistants, an office romance? Or were they just close friends? Was
Aftershock origanally written to be a starting point of a romance between
them before Hennesy decieded to leave? Or were the writers just playing with
us?
Ursula S Leubner
> Ok. I know it may have been asked a thousand times ....
<lots of good observations snipped.>
> So... after all that...the question is...
>
> was the relationship between Jack and Clair similar to that of his with
> previous assistants, an office romance?
Yes.
> Or were they just close friends? Was
> Aftershock originally written to be a starting point of a romance between
> them before Hennessy decided to leave?
Aftershock is Claire's last episode. All the teasing, etc. suggests a
romantic relationship developed earlier. See:
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/9418/index.html
for more details.
Or were the writers just playing with
> us?
>
Definitely. I've seen interviews where JH referred to it as the "Where's
Waldo" relationship.
Ursula
Walt
Thanks for the link to the site showing the "evidence of an affair", which I
lost after switching computers. I should note, while they correctly at the time
in "Sideshow" note that Claire was "dead" in the car crash, the idea that of
Claire possibly still being alive didn't even surface until more than six
months after the original airing of "Sideshow", when Ms. Hennessy discussed the
idea with Dick Wolf about possibly bringing Claire back.
Most of you in this NG are familiar with my way of bringing Claire back, which
for those who are new to this NG uses "Old Friends" (the season four finale
that was Michael Moriarity's last episode as Ben Stone) as a base:
For those unfamiliar, "Old Friends" is where Ben forces a witness (Ann Madsen,
played by Allison Janney) to testify against the Grushkov crime family and is
killed on orders of Sasha (her former business partner, played by Victor
Slezak) after Sasha is found guilty, with Ben resigning at that point.
The way Claire could in my opinion be realistically brought back is this:
"Aftershock" takes place on the two-year anniversary of Madsen being killed,
but no one notices it because they are all caught up with the execution of
Mickey Scott earlier that morning, with the Grushkovs planning a "hit" on
Claire to "send a message" to the DAs office that Sasha be freed immediately
(Claire was the only remaining member of the prosecuting team on the Grushkov
case still with the DAs office at that point). The Grushkovs proceed outside
Claire's apartment building, only they shoot a woman who looked like Claire who
happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time because Claire was driving
Lenny home when the drunk driver rammed into Claire, at just about the same
moment. At the hospital, although Claire is actually alive (but at this point
not sure if she'd survive anyway), the Feds order Claire be immediately
declared dead to protect her family and people working in the hospital from the
Grushkovs, and Claire's family staging a "funeral" for Claire where "her ashes"
are buried at sea. Once well enough to travel, Claire is moved to a facility
she can safely recover, with only her mother and stepfather knowing where she
actually is, taking her three full years to completely recover from her
injuries.
You can go back to earlier posts I made (using archives or whatever) on this
for the rest.
Walt
E-mail me at: Free...@juno.com
the...@my-deja.com
>
>Ok. I know it may have been asked a thousand times ....
>A few weeks ago A&E showed the first McCoy ep (season 5). In this eps Jack
>and Clair meet in his office while he is changing his cloths behind the
>door. As Clair asks him about his previous lovers/assistants she sneaks a
>little peak at him changing.
Doesn't her sneaking a peak suggest an unsatisfied curiosity? If they were
lovers, either he might be less carefull about changing, or she might be less
curious about what goes on behind the curtain. If they were lovers and she was
peeking, then she might have been more blatant about it, just for fun. Maybe
she's a little curious about this somewhat older man she works for, who has a
certain reputation for success with ladies?
>So... after all that...the question is...
>
>was the relationship between Jack and Clair similar to that of his with
>previous assistants, an office romance?
No. Sorry, can't see it.
> Or were they just close friends?
Who like to flirt with each other?
>Was
>Aftershock origanally written to be a starting point of a romance between
>them before Hennesy decieded to leave?
Don't know.
>Or were the writers just playing with us?
Maybe. Maybe they were playing with themselves? Writing as an exercise? Maybe
they wanted to keep the actors on their toes? Add a little fun to the show?
Theget.
David Wilton
>A few weeks ago A&E showed the first McCoy ep (season 5). In this eps Jack
>and Clair meet in his office while he is changing his cloths behind the
>door. As Clair asks him about his previous lovers/assistants she sneaks a
>little peak at him changing.
This indicates that the Jack/Claire relationship was in the writers'
minds from the beginning. And remember that Claire had a history of
dating her bosses--that judge she used to work for.
>was the relationship between Jack and Clair similar to that of his with
>previous assistants, an office romance? Or were they just close friends? Was
>Aftershock origanally written to be a starting point of a romance between
>them before Hennesy decieded to leave? Or were the writers just playing with
>us?
It's pretty well established there is an office romance between them,
just like his previous assistants. It's pretty subtle and easy to
miss, but once you clue into it the hints are everywhere.
But Aftershock was written after Hennessy decided to leave. They
decided to kill her off (sorry Walt) and in so doing make the
relationship more explicit at the end so that they could show Jack in
mourning the next season.
--Dave Wilton
da...@wilton.net
http://www.wordorigins.org
Walt
Again, it was correctly written at the time of the episodes you noted, with
Jack in mourning the next two seasons actually ("Blood" in season eight is
where Jamie set Jack up with a friend of hers, but he could do is go on about
Claire). The whole idea that Claire could actually still be alive didn't come
about until more than six months after "Sideshow" aired, when Jill Hennessy was
discussing the idea with Dick Wolf of bringing Claire back, and yes, especially
if you use "Old Friends" (Michael Moriarity's last episode from season four) as
a base, there are realistic ways of doing so.
zander
>
> So... after all that...the question is...
>
> was the relationship between Jack and Clair similar to that of his with
> previous assistants, an office romance? Or were they just close friends?
They had a romantic relationship.
>Was
> Aftershock origanally written to be a starting point of a romance between
> them before Hennesy decieded to leave? Or were the writers just playing with
> us?
No, the relationship was well under way before Aftershock. How long
it would have lasted is anyone's guess, but I doubt it would ever have
become too blatant.
Ursula S Leubner
> In article <u6T97.903$c8.5...@news1.denver1.co.home.com>, nelfilm says...
> >
> Doesn't her sneaking a peak suggest an unsatisfied curiosity? If they were
> lovers, either he might be less careful about changing, or she might be less
> curious about what goes on behind the curtain. If they were lovers and she was
> peeking, then she might have been more blatant about it, just for fun. Maybe
> she's a little curious about this somewhat older man she works for, who has a
> certain reputation for success with ladies?
>
Well, that scene was in "Second Opinion," the first episode with Jack, and
when Jack and Claire meet for the first time. No relationship yet, but
there seems to be interest on both their parts. But the suggestion that
they don't have a relationship during their first episode together needs
to be taken for what its worth. It indicates that they didn't jump into
bed the moment they met, but not that a relationship didn't develop over
then next two years.
>
> >Was
> >Aftershock originally written to be a starting point of a romance between
> >them before Hennessy decided to leave?
>
> Don't know.
>
By the time of "Aftershock," two years later, it seems fairly clear (to
me) that there was a relationship. Consider:
1. In "Aftershock," Jack and Claire are driving to work together in the
morning.
2. Jack calls and pages Claire repeatedly during her day off. There is no
work related reason for him to do so, he just wants to talk to her.
3. Jack suggests Claire take a sick day, when she obviously isn't sick,
but is just upset. That seems much more like the thinking of a boyfriend
than a boss.
4. Jack pages Claire from the bar to give him a ride home. Again, that is
not something you would expect in a boss/subordinate relationship, or even
good friends at work. It is something one would ask of one's girlfriend.
5. When Claire gets Jack's page while having dinner with Anita, she wants
to speak to him in private, and she seems to feel mildly guilty for going
so long without answering his calls and pages, and for keeping him waiting
at the bar.
Basically, Jack shows a level of involvement in Claire's day away from
work that goes way beyond what is appropriate for a boss or
co-worker. And Claire seems comfortable with that involvement, as well as
somewhat bad that she isn't responding as quickly as she feels she should.
Ursula
the...@my-deja.com
Ursula S Leubner says...
[snip]
The arguments you've made (and I've snipped) are certainly evidence of a
relationship, but I'm not sure that they're proof.
>Basically, Jack shows a level of involvement in Claire's day away from
>work that goes way beyond what is appropriate for a boss or
>co-worker.
Couldn't it be possible that they've just become very good friends. I've made
friends with people at work, and I've done things for them like picking them up
and taking them places. None of this was ever romantic. I've even had a boss
who let me take time off occasionally. And that wasn't romantic either.
> And Claire seems comfortable with that involvement, as well as
>somewhat bad that she isn't responding as quickly as she feels she should.
That's an interesting thought. Why isn't she responding? Why does she feel bad
about it? How quickly should she respond?
From what I've seen, we have two people who are becoming very good friends.
They flirt. They are curious about each other, but they aren't involved.
Can't people just be friends and not be romantically involved?
Theget.
Chris Crandall
: The arguments you've made (and I've snipped) are certainly evidence of a
: relationship, but I'm not sure that they're proof.
Well, what would constitute proof, anyway? A big on-screen kiss?
: From what I've seen, we have two people who are becoming very good friends.
: They flirt. They are curious about each other, but they aren't involved.
: Can't people just be friends and not be romantically involved?
Sure they can. But since the producers sat Jill Henessey down and
specifically told her that her character was having an affair with Jack
McCoy, I think it's safe to conclude that the producers wanted the viewers
to perceive an affair between them.
the...@my-deja.com
>
>the...@my-deja.com wrote:
>: The arguments you've made (and I've snipped) are certainly evidence of a
>: relationship, but I'm not sure that they're proof.
>
>Well, what would constitute proof, anyway?
I'm not sure. Something that would prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
Something unambiguous.
> A big on-screen kiss?
That would depend on both the context and the reactions. But generally
speaking, that would be less ambiguous than what we've seen.
>: From what I've seen, we have two people who are becoming very good friends.
>: They flirt. They are curious about each other, but they aren't involved.
>: Can't people just be friends and not be romantically involved?
>
>Sure they can.
And that's what I see on screen.
> But since the producers sat Jill Henessey down and
>specifically told her that her character was having an affair with Jack
>McCoy, I think it's safe to conclude that the producers wanted the viewers
>to perceive an affair between them.
Perhaps. I require more evidence. I'd like to know if the producers told SW,
the writers, the directors, the DPs, the set decorators, the costume designers,
etc., the same thing too. And I'd also like to know how they all reacted to
what they were told.
If they did want them to be involved romantically, wouldn't it have been oh so
much simpler to write in a scene that showed them together in an unambiguous
moment?
Maybe the producers wanted that ambiguity so they could make us, the members of
the audience, discuss the difference between evidence and proof. Or maybe they
enjoyed teasing us.
You asked me what would constitute proof, please allow me to ask a similar
question about a hypothetical situation. Suppose you are on a jury, and the
facts of the case are such that if Jack and Jill were having an affair then the
defendant is guilty and will go to prison. Based on the evidence, which for
arguments sake, the judge has limited to just the TV show, in my hypothetical
any conversations between JH and the producers wouldn't be admissable, how would
you vote?
Theget.
zander
> the...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> Sure they can. But since the producers sat Jill Henessey down and
> specifically told her that her character was having an affair with Jack
> McCoy, I think it's safe to conclude that the producers wanted the viewers
> to perceive an affair between them.
Not to mention that in "Sideshow" William Dell refers to "another one
of your lovers' when questioning McCoy. Clearly the reference is to
Claire Kincaid.
nelfilm
info.
As for your hypothetical situation:
Suppose you are on a jury, and the facts of the case are such that if Jack
and Jill were having an affair then the
defendant is guilty and will go to prison. Based on the evidence, which for
arguments sake, the judge has limited to just the TV show, in my
hypothetical any conversations between JH and the producers wouldn't be
admissible, how would you vote?
(note: this is an debate that has raged on various great shows, most notably
Star Trek. Do conversations between people in involved in the creation of
the show, filmed but deleted scenes, and books, comics, or various other
media constitute the continuing story line of the show. Die hard fans say
yes but the producers say a very loud and final NO. Official words says only
what makes it to the screen is part of the story.)
In your theory there are 4 points of view to consider :
1-The prosecution / detectives investigating
2-The defense team
3-The Jury
4-The judge (and/or appeals division)
Since our judge has ruled that only filmed scenes making it to the final cut
are admissible to the proceedings we must work with this.
We can already hear the defense team asking for a dismissal due to lack of
evidence. Our judge feeling there might really be something to the charges
grants the prosecution 2 days to find something solid or the case will be
dismissed.
So what have out detectives found for the prosecution so far? (It should be
noted the detectives investigating this are Logan and Munch. Who better? And
for the prosecution, Jamie Ross.)
1- Jack and Claire meet in his office while he is changing his cloths behind
the door. As Claire asks him about his previous lovers/assistants she sneaks
a little peak at him changing.
2-Many late nights in the office (some which included achohol. On several
occasions provided by then DA Schiff).
3-a lot dinners out (which included wine and other forms of achohol consumed
at almost every meal)
4-Jack helps Claire make an excuse to get out of work
5-Jack beeps/calls her later and sets up a meeting at a bar neither of them
frequent
6-It is detective Lenny Brisco's sworn, all be it hard to obtain due to his
reluctance, that Jack told him that he, Jack, was waiting for a female
someone. When Claire shows up after Jack has already gone and Lenny realizes
she was the one Jack was waiting for it was like all the pieces of
a puzzle coming together for him.
**objection! ..
Defense - It is a fact Detective Brisco was heavily drunk at the time of
both the statement and the arrival of Ms. Kincaid.
Prosecution - Detective Brisco was and is a recovering achoholic who feel
off the wagon after having seen another man put to death by the state of New
York. And as a an achoholic he could consume vast amounts and still be very
lucid.
Defense - Your Honor, Detective Brisco is also prone to blackouts. How much
of that day does the Detective really remember and how much has been created
in his own mind and for him by the prosecutions questioning?
Prosecution - We have other witnesses in the bar ...
Defense - All of whom were drinking.
Prosecution - The phone records of the bar and police station. Along with
the statement of Lt. Van Buren ...
Defense - Who will swear to Ms. Kincaid saying she was keeping a man
waiting. Mr. McCoy's name was not mentioned to her.
Judge - It would appear that the calls, statements, and witness are enough
to over rule the objection.
(back to the evidence)
7-(in 'Sideshow') The not-so-Independent Counsel makes mention of the affair
and possible proof of it. (there might have been proof or simply another one
of the IC's shameless tactics to get what he wanted)
8- In "Aftershock," Jack and Claire are driving to work together in the
morning.
9-Jack pages Claire from the bar to give him a ride home. Again, that is
not something you would expect in a boss/subordinate relationship, or even
good friends at work. It is something one would ask of one's girlfriend.
10-When Claire gets Jack's page while having dinner with Anita, she wants to
speak to him in private, and she seems to feel mildly guilty for going so
long without answering his calls and pages, and for keeping him waiting at
the bar.
.....interlude...
Logan- Basically, Jack shows a level of involvement in Claire's day away
from work that goes way beyond what is appropriate for a boss or co-worker.
And Claire seems comfortable with that involvement, as well as somewhat bad
that she isn't responding as quickly as she feels she should.
Munch - Of course they were having an affair. That much is obvious by the
conspiracy.
Logan- What conspiracy?
Munch- To begin with why would Schiff assign the lovely Ms. Kincaid to McCoy
unless McCoy has something on him.
Logan- McCoy was blackmailing Schiff to get good looking assistants?
Munch- Whether it was blackmail or an old far getting off his voyeuristic
fantasies we know Schiff put them together and was providing both of them
with achohol.
Logan- So your saying ...
Munch- If McCoy was blackmailing Schiff what was the blackmail and how does
this relate to IC's investigation of the President.
Logan- The President is involved?
Munch - With a man like Slick Willy holding the highest office if gives the
go ahead for guys like Schiff and McCoy.
Logan - But McCoy's affairs with his co-workers goes back years before Slick
Willy was President.
Munch- Hey, no conspiracy theory is concrete. If they were they would be
facts not theories.
(back to the evidence)
11-Claire had a history of dating her bosses--that judge she used to work
for.
12-"Blood" in season eight is where Jamie set Jack up with a friend of hers,
but he could do is go on about Claire.
Judge - Has the Jury reached a verdict?
Jury - Yes, your Honor. There seems to be sufficient reasonable doubt to
conclude there was more than a professional relationship between ADA McCoy
and Ms. Kincaid. As to the extent of the relationship... we can not draw a
conclusion at this time.
<the...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:xZja7.15591$ar1....@www.newsranger.com...
Ursula S Leubner
> In article
> Ursula S Leubner says...
>
> [snip]
>
> The arguments you've made (and I've snipped) are certainly evidence of a
> relationship, but I'm not sure that they're proof.
>
> >Basically, Jack shows a level of involvement in Claire's day away from
> >work that goes way beyond what is appropriate for a boss or
> >co-worker.
>
> Couldn't it be possible that they've just become very good friends. I've made
> friends with people at work, and I've done things for them like picking them up
> and taking them places. None of this was ever romantic. I've even had a boss
> who let me take time off occasionally. And that wasn't romantic either.
>
>
> > And Claire seems comfortable with that involvement, as well as
> >somewhat bad that she isn't responding as quickly as she feels she should.
>
> That's an interesting thought. Why isn't she responding? Why does she feel bad
> about it? How quickly should she respond?
As for Claire not responding, when Jack tried to call her from the office,
she was out running. She seems to have spent most of the day away from
home, so she would have missed any other calls he tried to make to her as
well. And when he pages her, she's in the middle of her meal with Anita,
and took the time to finish her dinner before leaving to pick him up. So
the "why" of her not responding seems to be as much a matter of bad timing
as anything else. It would have been awfully rude (not to mention high
schoolish) for her to go running of after her boyfriend and leave Anita
halfway through a dinner that she offered to share.
As for Claire feeling bad about keeping him waiting, I don't think she was
feeling severely guilty about it. More along the lines of "I missed all
his calls, I've been putting off returning his page, the poor guy must be
wondering what's happened to me, and where I am, and I've kept him
waiting too long, anyway."
>
> From what I've seen, we have two people who are becoming very good friends.
> They flirt. They are curious about each other, but they aren't involved.
>
> Can't people just be friends and not be romantically involved?
>
Certainly they can. But I don't think that's the case in this
relationship. No we don't have proof, except for the Independent
Counsel's comment in "Sideshow." But the number of coincidences and
suggestions add up, especially in season 6. "Bitter
Fruit," "Savages," "Paranoia," "Trophy," "Pro Se," and
"Homesick," combine to show a fairly intense emotional connection. And
they both seem to enjoy intellectual discussion as foreplay, and show no
suggestions of any other romantic relationship, so why not...
Ursula
Lise Sedrez
Ursula S Leubner wrote:
>
> >
> > > And Claire seems comfortable with that involvement, as well as
> > >somewhat bad that she isn't responding as quickly as she feels she should.
> >
> > That's an interesting thought. Why isn't she responding? Why does she feel bad
> > about it? How quickly should she respond?
>
> As for Claire not responding, when Jack tried to call her from the office,
> she was out running. She seems to have spent most of the day away from
> home, so she would have missed any other calls he tried to make to her as
> well. And when he pages her, she's in the middle of her meal with Anita,
> and took the time to finish her dinner before leaving to pick him up. So
> the "why" of her not responding seems to be as much a matter of bad timing
> as anything else. It would have been awfully rude (not to mention high
> schoolish) for her to go running of after her boyfriend and leave Anita
> halfway through a dinner that she offered to share.
>
> As for Claire feeling bad about keeping him waiting, I don't think she was
> feeling severely guilty about it. More along the lines of "I missed all
> his calls, I've been putting off returning his page, the poor guy must be
> wondering what's happened to me, and where I am, and I've kept him
> waiting too long, anyway."
>
I thought she was badly shaken for having attended to the execution, and
feeling that she need that day away from Jack, to sort out things by
herself. She was considering quitting the job, and what she wanted to
weight was what would be better for her, without being influenced by
Jack. More along the lines: "I know he is there for me, but right now, I
don't want to hear what he has to say about this. I know that eventually
we will talk about it."
Lise
Ursula S Leubner
about her feelings about the execution. But that doesn't mean that she
necessarily wanted to ignore him completely. She comments to Anita that
she's "kept him waiting long enough." Perhaps she feels that, while she
doesn't want any deep conversations with him, she owes him, at the very
least, a "don't worry about me, I'm doing okay and I'll see you and we'll
talk later" comment. It's a little bit rude to not return messages from
someone who is trying to contact you, and more so if you're close to that
person. Claire is generally polite, and would feel bad that, through some
combination of not being home, being busy, and needing emotional space,
she's left Jack's messages unacknowledged.
Ursula
Chris Crandall
: Suppose you are on a jury, and the facts of the case are such that if Jack
Keep in mind that (1) criminal juries have a Very High standard of
evidence. This stacks the deck against a "yes". In a civil trial, I'd
say "yes", in a criminal trial, maybe "no".
But then again, I don't care much what Trekkies talk about or their
standards of evidence, so . . . I'll get back to reality soon.