Revelations: Jurgen...THE Special Op (SO spoilers)
Dentav
Ah.....been waiting for this moment since January. And like fine wine...this
episode gets better with age!
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I love seeing this on TV being aired. I wish I was in the parts of Canada that
saw it four times already. I'm green about that...The only bad thing about
seeing it on tv vs. a tape is that I couldn't rewind the slimy Michael parts.
And there were sooooo many to chose from. = )
Jurgen: Since I've written what could be volumes about this character I won't
go into too much detail...yeah right.
I think this episode is great because of not what is said but rather what was
left unsaid. This episode was primo because of its unspoken and subtle
innuendo.
How did Jurgen know Michael would instruct Nikita to kill him? He knew
Michael, apparently very well. But how did he know Nikita would follow
MIchael's request? He could see in Michael's eyes that he was hiding something.
Perhaps Nikita's too. When he called Michael's bluff about questioning Kudrin
and Michael then went along with it and said 'good idea' you just knew that he
(jurgen) was not going to be the one to hang Michael, rather, he was going to
let MICHAEL HANG HIMSELF. Hence when Nikita came to kill him he gave her every
opportunity to do so knowing full well he could over take her. But, he wanted
to see if Michael had as much power over her as he believed he did.
You could tell that he was starting to have feelings for her in this episode.
When he tells her that she doesn't seem out of sync now you can see a genuine
respect for her. Even though he manuevered her into showing her cards and
letting her know he was on to her, he didn't use his information to hang her
either. Rather, he was going to let her hang herself as well.
I think a true manipulative, power monger, moster, anus would have run right
over to Ops and Maddy and narced, but I think he figured that if they could
squirm out of the situation he was going to let them. And, he looked like he
did his job, they got off, Ops and Maddy are satisfied with the results and
everyone is happy. Everyone except Michael.
I guess I must have weird taste in men because even when he was trying to act
like a hard ass I thought he was playing a role. His eyes didn't seem hard at
all. Nikita saw it too...
Michael: One bad episode for Michael. Blackmailing a man on his death bed,
lying to his superiors, offering an escape to NIkita and yet saying he 'HAD' to
stay. Why? He'd face death either way if found out? Why not be free and take
your chances? Suggesting, ever so slyly that Nikita 'handle' Jurgen. I think
he was saying KILL him. She thought that too. And when he saw Jurgen walk
into the hall and saw he hadn't kicked the bucket boy did he looked peeved.
I think this ep Michael showed a TON of emotion...sadly not much of the good
kind. He looked scared, and worried and evil. I think his eyes looked cold and
dead when he told Nikita 'to get over it.' Gave me the chills. And I've seen
this episode at least 30 times.
Nikita: The girl has good instincts...I loved when she told Michael off. A
few times she did in this episode. I think this was the beginning of her new
attitude. You can almost hear the Who in the background singing 'We're not
gonna take it...'
Yes...Nikita was there for the taking. Michael chose to take a hike.
That's all for now...Going to go watch my tape.
Denise
"You can do anything can't you, except be with me. You can go to hell Michael"
- Nikita
Denise
"Jurgen doesn't want to hurt anybody. He's a decent person...why can't you
accept that?' - Nikita
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/brucepaynelist
Jaida
Dentav wrote in message <19980920233912...@ng26.aol.com>...
>
<snip>
>
>Michael: One bad episode for Michael. Blackmailing a man on his death
bed,
>lying to his superiors, offering an escape to NIkita and yet saying he
'HAD' to
>stay. Why? He'd face death either way if found out? Why not be free and
take
>your chances?
I thought Michael would have to stay behind to divert attention from Nikita.
That is why he said he could give her a two-day head start at the most. If
they both disappeared it would be discovered right away.
Jaida
Suzita
(giggling) I bet you've seen it *many* times! :-) Me, I've seen it a few.
And like fine wine...this
>episode gets better with age!
It is a good episode.
>
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/snippage/..............>
>
>Michael: One bad episode for Michael. Blackmailing a man on his death
bed,
I don't think he was blackmailing Kudrun. He was cutting a deal. Kudrun
wanted to die, Michael wanted him to tell a story. It was already assured
that Section would keep Kudrun hooked on the drugs and alive for a very long
time. Maddy made that little deal. Sure, Michael wanted something, but so
did Kudrun. In today's world, we call this a 'win, win' situation. :-)
>lying to his superiors,
Reciprocal treatment. They lie to him too. ;-)
offering an escape to NIkita and yet saying he 'HAD' to
>stay. Why? He'd face death either way if found out? Why not be free and
take
>your chances?
Because if they both disappear Section will be on to them immediately. If
only Nikita ran, it might actually buy the time Michael spoke of.
Suggesting, ever so slyly that Nikita 'handle' Jurgen. I think
>he was saying KILL him. She thought that too. And when he saw Jurgen walk
>into the hall and saw he hadn't kicked the bucket boy did he looked peeved.
>
>I think this ep Michael showed a TON of emotion...sadly not much of the
good
>kind. He looked scared, and worried and evil. I think his eyes looked cold
and
>dead when he told Nikita 'to get over it.' Gave me the chills. And I've
seen
>this episode at least 30 times.
Any emotions from Michael are the 'good' kind. Anything that will help us
to better try to figure out what is going on with him is fine in my book.
>
>Nikita: The girl has good instincts...I loved when she told Michael off.
A
>few times she did in this episode. I think this was the beginning of her
new
>attitude. You can almost hear the Who in the background singing 'We're not
>gonna take it...'
>
>Yes...Nikita was there for the taking. Michael chose to take a hike.
Michael didn't take a hike. He was being cautious. Even without focusing
on what comes next (in the arc), I could see that he was protecting them (or
trying to). Don't forget that they (M and J) obviously had a history ("Good
to see you Michael"), and Michael knew more about the type of person J is,
and probably what he would stoop to, than he let on.
>
>That's all for now...Going to go watch my tape.
Enjoy!
Suzita
Heather
> Ah.....been waiting for this moment since January. And like fine wine...this
> episode gets better with age!
>
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<snip>
> Michael: One bad episode for Michael. Blackmailing a man on his death bed,
> lying to his superiors, offering an escape to NIkita and yet saying he 'HAD' to
> stay. Why? He'd face death either way if found out? Why not be free and take
> your chances? Suggesting, ever so slyly that Nikita 'handle' Jurgen. I think
> he was saying KILL him. She thought that too. And when he saw Jurgen walk
> into the hall and saw he hadn't kicked the bucket boy did he looked peeved.
why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he know that
if she did she would be canceled for killing another op?? stupid stupid stupid
move on michael's part. yes i am an HR when it comes to M&N, but did he hate
jurgen that much that he would send someone that he loves to kill him and to turn
around and see her die because of it?? he was not looking at the bigger picture
that time.----
For a non-spam reply please remove both X's.
Thank you and good night.
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
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> Michael didn't take a hike. He was being cautious. Even without focusing
> on what comes next (in the arc), I could see that he was protecting them (or
> trying to). Don't forget that they (M and J) obviously had a history ("Good
> to see you Michael"), and Michael knew more about the type of person J is,
> and probably what he would stoop to, than he let on.
>
I have to agree Suzita, Michael was being cautious and rightly so. Nikita
seemed to have lost her senses of the danger they were in and selfishly was
ready to endanger Michael also with her impatience. I don't think Nikita
deserved Michael after the way she acted and her resorting to trying to make
him jealous was rather childish and celf centered after all he had risked for
her. I could not muster up a shred of sympathy for her characer with the way
she behaved. Micahel seemed to me to be the only one thinking with his head
not his hormones.
va
va
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he know
that
> if she did she would be canceled for killing another op?? stupid
When did Michael tell Nikita to kill him? He told her to "take care of it" I
assumed he meant seduce the guy and was VERY surprised when she showed up
with the knife. At least she understood what he meant in Open Heart when he
told her the same thing. I think the writers took leave of their senses with
the arc for portraying Nikita in such a negative and rather clueless way.
Someone mentioned that season 2 started to go downhill with the arc and I
have to agree. But I also think they quickly recovered and things went
steadily up thereafter. I was satisfied with everyong and how all the
characters played out in the end.
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he know
that
> if she did she would be canceled for killing another op?? stupid
When did Michael tell Nikita to kill him? He told her to "take care of it" I
assumed he meant seduce the guy and was VERY surprised when she showed up
with the knife. At least she understood what he meant in Open Heart when he
told her the same thing. I think the writers took leave of their senses with
the arc for portraying Nikita in such a negative and rather clueless way.
Someone mentioned that season 2 started to go downhill with the arc and I
have to agree. But I also think they quickly recovered and things went
steadily up thereafter. I was satisfied with everyone and how all the
characters played out by season end.
dentav...@my-dejanews.com
va_l...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
> > why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he know
> that
> > if she did she would be canceled for killing another op?? stupid
>
> When did Michael tell Nikita to kill him? He told her to "take care of it" I
> assumed he meant seduce the guy and was VERY surprised when she showed up>>
I must respectfully disagree here. In the scripts Jurgen KNEW Michael had
instructed Nikita to KILL him. Some of the dialogue was edited from this
scene.
In addition, how would Michael know if 'it was all over' by SEEING Jurgen if
they had sex and he meant for him to be seduced? Can he tell by looking at
someone whether they successfully consumated a liason. NO...it makes no
sense.
He would have to see Jurgen alive, breathing and walking to know that Nikita
did not fulfill his wish. IMHO.
Denise
REvans7877
Ok everything is a 2 way street, (1) Micheal slept with Nikita (in my opinion)
to get her back in section (2) to Nikita this was a sign that he really loved
her and that she meant something to him (3) he rejected her(or at least to her
it seemed that way (4) Jurgen was there and he seemed to want to be with her. (
5) Nikita did what any self respecting woman with any kind of pride (in my
opinion) would do which is grab something on the rebound
I don't think Nikita needed any sympathy, what she did was smart in my opinion,
since he seemed to not want her she found someone who did
>
>I have to agree Suzita, Michael was being cautious and rightly so. Nikita
>seemed to have lost her senses of the danger they were in and selfishly was
>ready to endanger Michael also with her impatience. I don't think Nikita
>deserved Michael after the way she acted and her resorting to trying to make
>him jealous was rather childish and celf centered after all he had risked for
>her. I could not muster up a shred of sympathy for her characer with the way
>she behaved. Micahel seemed to me to be the only one thinking with his head
>not his hormones.
>
>
>va
>
>va
A>A>M>
" I have enough problems, I don't need yours."
REvans7877
ok in case anyone hasn't noticed Micheal's usual approach to a problem is kill
now ask questions later, So it made sense to me that she thought he wanted her
to kill him and knowing Micheal he would have probably pinned it on someone
else what I didn't get was why she got a knife couldn't she get a gun or
something come on how " I know what you did last summer" was that.
Nikitapoo
>
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>>
>> Michael didn't take a hike. He was being cautious. Even without focusing
>> on what comes next (in the arc), I could see that he was protecting them
>(or
>> trying to). Don't forget that they (M and J) obviously had a history
>("Good
>> to see you Michael"), and Michael knew more about the type of person J is,
>> and probably what he would stoop to, than he let on.
>>
>
> Nikita
>seemed to have lost her senses of the danger they were in and selfishly was
>ready to endanger Michael also with her impatience. I don't think Nikita
>deserved Michael after the way she acted and her resorting to trying to make
>him jealous was rather childish and celf centered after all he had risked for
>her. I could not muster up a shred of sympathy for her characer with the way
>she behaved. Micahel seemed to me to be the only one thinking with his head
>not his hormones.
I was so turned off when I watched this last January that I gave it a try
again last night. Both of you are so right on both counts. It seemed to me
that everyone was acting out of character and Michael seemed to be the only
person still aware that they were in section. He acted heroically in spite of
Nikita. If I had been him, I would have simply walked away with a 'good
riddance' after one of her tantrums. I was most disappointed in Nikita's
behavior. She was simply a petulant and selfish child. How humiliating for me
who
has been begging dh to watch this cool show with this cool chick and the first
one he saw was this. As for Jurgen, well, dh saw him again last night and
simply turned to me and said, "This guy! Yeah, I remember him. Why didn't
they kill him off now and just get it over with? Would have saved us all a lot
of grief."
Nik
"Some people will believe anything if you whisper it."
EZBadtodabone
>
>
> > why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he know
> that
> > if she did she would be canceled for killing another op?? stupid
Hey guys,
even weirder...
It looked like she came after him with a steak knife she had snitched fromm
the dining room....
For some reason, a Monty Python skit just went floating by....
Having to do with being diciplined for eating outside of designated
dining areas....
he he he
EZBee,
giving more credence to my rapidly developing
"Sliders-TwilightZone-SouthPark" theory....
EZBadtodabone
SNIP....
> It seemed to me
> that everyone was acting out of character
See!
I told you guys!
Like Columbine said, Invasion of the Body Snatchers
my attitude is more dream sequence of Dallas...
>and Michael seemed to be the only
> person still aware that they were in section. He acted heroically in spite of
> Nikita.
He was outstanding in this ep, going out of his way to save her (and them
if possible)....
>If I had been him, I would have simply walked away with a 'good
> riddance' after one of her tantrums. I was most disappointed in Nikita's
> behavior. She was simply a petulant and selfish child.
There is no doubt for me that Michael made love to Nikita in HL because he
loves her and with no ulterior motive. Period.....
She on the other hand, has no more
concept of adult love that well, a five year old.
When she couldn't have things her way, she literally stamped her foot and
turned to the smooth talking manipulator who told her all the things she
wanted to hear. Talk about fickle.
And with NO attention span....
I mean...the whole arc sequence from HL to the end of the arc is about a
month....
Wow...
A paragon of patience....
> How humiliating for me
> who
> has been begging dh to watch this cool show with this cool chick and the first
> one he saw was this.
I understand....
I really do...
> As for Jurgen, well, dh saw him again last night and
> simply turned to me and said, "This guy! Yeah, I remember him. Why didn't
> they kill him off now and just get it over with? Would have saved us all a lot
> of grief."
Repeat after me....
"Arc? what arc? and who is Jurgen?"
EZBee,
Being nice and not calling him Jogurt.....
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> I must respectfully disagree here. In the scripts Jurgen KNEW Michael had
> instructed Nikita to KILL him. Some of the dialogue was edited from
this
> scene.
Denise I understand your approach but while you may have read something in
the script it was not in the aired episode. I have so many of the scripts and
they differ wildly from the finished product in many cases. So if something
was in the script but not aired that means it really happened? I think it's
more liek they decided it was a better way to go to leave it out and changed
their mind on how the characters were going to behave. And while the script
may give insight into the characters at times, they are by no means the
finished product and cannot be taken as what actually happened in the
finished product. Which I think is a good thing in many cases I much
preferred the aired version which probably had more input from Peta and Roy
etc as to how things should play out.
>
> In addition, how would Michael know if 'it was all over' by SEEING Jurgen if
> they had sex and he meant for him to be seduced? Can he tell by looking at
> someone whether they successfully consumated a liason. NO...it makes no
> sense.
I think Michael knew it was all over when Nikita admitted to letting Jurgen in
on how she got back into section. And as Michael said, it was only a matter of
time before he used the info against them.
va
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> Ok everything is a 2 way street, (1) Micheal slept with Nikita (in my
opinion)
> to get her back in section (2) to Nikita this was a sign that he really loved
> her and that she meant something to him (3) he rejected her(or at least to her
> it seemed that way (4) Jurgen was there and he seemed to want to be with her.
(
> 5) Nikita did what any self respecting woman with any kind of pride (in my
> opinion) would do which is grab something on the rebound
>
> I don't think Nikita needed any sympathy, what she did was smart in my
opinion,
> since he seemed to not want her she found someone who did
>
> >
But Michael did not reject Nikita, he only told her to be patient until her
evalutation was over and they were not under such a close watch. He was
honest about not knowing how long that would take. She "rebounded" for no
reason. Although after her childish and selfish actions she did not deserve
him at that point. I didn't see her actions of doing a switch from one guy to
another as smart. I thought it was pathetic.
va
> >I have to agree Suzita, Michael was being cautious and rightly so. Nikita
> >seemed to have lost her senses of the danger they were in and selfishly was
> >ready to endanger Michael also with her impatience. I don't think Nikita
> >deserved Michael after the way she acted and her resorting to trying to make
> >him jealous was rather childish and celf centered after all he had risked for
> >her. I could not muster up a shred of sympathy for her characer with the way
> >she behaved. Micahel seemed to me to be the only one thinking with his head
> >not his hormones.
> >
> >
> >va
> >
> >va
>
> A>A>M>
> " I have enough problems, I don't need yours."
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
CATKNSN
>I thought Michael would have to stay behind to divert attention from Nikita.
>That is why he said he could give her a two-day head start at the most. If
>they both disappeared it would be discovered right away.
>
>Jaida
>
>
>
I thought the same thing. And Nikita refused to see that obvious fact - she
just hauled off and freaked out and accused him of not wanting to be with her.
I think what offends me the most about the Arc was Nikita's behavior. It was
as if her brain had completely stopped working and she was confused between
Section One and junior high school.
And when she said she wasn't going to run, it wasn't like it was in End Game,
where she was talking from the perspective of a woman who has chosen to stand
her ground - it was from the perspective of "Oh, no, I don't want my freedom as
much as I want YOU to have to FACE ME and DEAL with our relationship".
All it was missing was a stuck out tongue and a nyah-nyah or two. Hated that.
Cathy
REvans7877
>But Michael did not reject Nikita, he only told her to be patient until her
>evalutation was over and they were not under such a close watch.
How many times has he used that one, and the fact that he gave her no
encouragement of his intentions what would be your first thought if you were in
her situation she has just reentered section one after sleeping with Micheal he
claimed to have feeling for you and then goes back to his be patient kick
personally I would make him a patient in meb lab but then again not everybody
is as impatient as me
>. She "rebounded" for no
>reason.
she had plenty reason to rebound the guy was brushing her off again
> Although after her childish and selfish actions she did not deserve
>him at that point.
You lost me, she just gave up freedom for this guy, personally I'd be pretty
pissed off myself I'll admit I wouldn't have handled it like Nikita but
everybody has to deal, and personally I think she has earned the right to be
selfish come on she's been manulated, lied to, brushed off by Micheal I don't
think him listening to her whine for a few months is out of order( I just
don't want to listen to it)>I didn't see her actions of doing a switch from one
guy to
>another as smart. I thought it was pathetic.
>
>
I saw her tring to save her pride if that may your idea of pathetic, but to me
if you can't save a realtionship don't give them the satisfaction of seeing you
hurt or maybe that just makes sense to me
Chris Touhey
EZBadtodabone wrote:
> Repeat after me....
> "Arc? what arc? and who is Jurgen?"
>
> EZBee,
> Being nice and not calling him Jogurt.....
Gosh, it's fun to read your stuff. The true repulsion you have for this character is
obvious; your humor in dealing with it is admirable. Clearly, if TPTB want any true
competition to Michael, they need to look for a Georgia boy! They may have weird
accents, but at least it's only one. And they don't play games! (Can't none of them
think on that deep a level.). It's like Denise/Dentav/whoeverthehellsheis keeps
reminding us, "Jergbutt doesn't want to hurt anyone. He can't help it if he makes
people gag."
Chris
[remember I kinda like him, all you flamers!]
PS - I'm in DC today. Just saw Vernon Jordan have a drink with an attractive black
woman in the hotel bar (now let's guess what I was doing there). He came in &
checked the place out, first (no TV cameras or microphones). When they left & were
walking toward the limo, I noticed his hands were in his pockets. Clearly not
something a gentleman would do, but clearly in keeping with DC politics of today.
:)
Granvia
Michael was being cautious, but also by the end of the ep and the beginning of
the next, M&O got in the middle of the threesome. They realized what a great
opportunity it would be to use Nikita against Jurgen by making Michael shove
her into J's arms so Section could infiltrate Jurgen's home security and get
the goods he had on them.
G > In other words, M&O had a lot to do with distancing Michael and Nikita.
"If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone
else..."
Rita
>to get her back in section (
had lived through months of torment and anguish, then showed immense
relief that the woman he loved was safe. Also, Nikita made the
statement that freedom wasn't all it was cracked up to be. She had no
life on the outside. She knew she would be looking over her shoulder
all the time. They both wanted her back in Section from what I saw,
not only to be together, but to keep her safe ad having at least some
quality of life.
Rita
"Love will build a bridge . . . .
Hmm, wish it would build me a patio."
Rita
>I must respectfully disagree here. In the scripts Jurgen KNEW Michael had
>instructed Nikita to KILL him. Some of the dialogue was edited from this
>scene.
directed at just you but at all the people who keep quoting "the
script." I have to respectfully say that I don't read the scripts, I
watch the show. If the dialogue is not in the show, them I assume
TPTB left it out for a reason. I base my opinions on the aired
version of the show. If I want to read, I read a book or play. If I
want to see a show, I watch a show. As a writer, I would be very
upset at the idea that someone was second guessing my story based upon
reading a first draft of my work, or as an actor, they were judging
the story based on something they read, rather than my portrayal.
I got very tired of hearing about the supposed original ending of End
Game for that reason. I don't care what the first draft said. I care
about the version I saw which I assume is the version the people who
make the show chose as the way they wanted us to see it.
JMNSHO
Rita
>move on michael's part. yes i am an HR when it comes to M&N, but did he hate
>jurgen that much
make sense. How would they explain that? However, I don't think
Michael hated Jurgen or that his feelings for Jurgen entered into the
equation at all. He felt that Jurgen was a threat to him and Nikita,
that's all. IMNSHO
Rita
>Having to do with being diciplined for eating outside of designated
>dining areas....
>
>he he he
>
>
>EZBee,
>giving more credence to my rapidly developing
>"Sliders-TwilightZone-SouthPark" theory....
ROTF
Rita
>much as I want YOU to have to FACE ME and DEAL with our relationship".
>All it was missing was a stuck out tongue and a nyah-nyah or two. Hated that.
>
>Cathy
Rita
>I thought Michael would have to stay behind to divert attention from Nikita.
>That is why he said he could give her a two-day head start at the most. If
>they both disappeared it would be discovered right away.
>
>Jaida
Jaida, that was also how I read it. I think Michael was going to
cover for her and take whatever consequences came. And, as to why he
stays with Section in the general sense, I don't think we know. There
is still so much of this character that is hidden that I don't think
it's possible to make judgement calls on why he chooses not to run.
Granvia
I agree with Amanda and Denise. Michael meant kill Jurgen, not seduce him.
That was my understanding when I heard his instruction to Nikita to do whatever
it took. She thought so, too.
Otherwise, reiterating, Michael wouldn't have said, "You signed our death
warrant" when he saw Jurgen walk pass them.
Doubtful that Michael would have wanted Nikita to have sex with Jurgen, and
Jurgen, attracted though he had become to Nikita, would not have been swayed by
such an obvious ploy.
What guarantee would there been for Nikita that he wouldn't have squealed on
her after being intimate with her?
G > Dead men don't talk.
Dentav
>I thought the same thing. And Nikita refused to see that obvious fact - she
>just hauled off and freaked out and accused him of not wanting to be with
>her.
>I think what offends me the most about the Arc was Nikita's behavior. It was
>as if her brain had completely stopped working and she was confused between
>Section One and junior high school.
>And when she said she wasn't going to run, it wasn't like it was in End Game,
>where she was talking from the perspective of a woman who has chosen to stand
>as
>much as I want YOU to have to FACE ME and DEAL with our relationship".
>All it was missing was a stuck out tongue and a nyah-nyah or two. Hated
>that.
>
>Cathy
I think the girl needs to be given a break. How many of us at the tender age
of 23 (?) would have reacted with dignity, grace and maturity after giving up
our liberty under the false assumption that the man that you love was going to
be with you?
She reacted as most women would...Anger, sadness, confusion, frustration,
desparation, and feeling betrayed. I see nothing wrong with her feeling this
way and actually I respect her tolerance level.
If it would have been ME I think I would have tried Lorena Bobbit's
techniques...= )
Denise
Dentav
>ok in case anyone hasn't noticed Micheal's usual approach to a problem is
>kill
>now ask questions later, So it made sense to me that she thought he wanted
>her
>to kill him
ROTFLMAO...
I guess his second rule would be sex first, questions later.
Denise
Who watches Jens Suis and dreams how Michael could be...
MaryAS
Chris and EZ, I always enjoy reading both of your posts!! Insightful and
humorous!
As for Nikita's attitude in this episode....I though she had a generally
typical young female reaction to having had sex with Michael. She thought it
would change things. He'd tell her he loved her, they'd hold hands and
kiss...yadda yadda yaddda. Sex doesn't always change relationships for men.
This all in addition to the fact that Michael knew they'd be placing themselves
in danger of cancellation if Operations and Maddy became aware of their
feelings for each other. Of course, unbenownst to Michael, Maddy definately
had a clue. Anyway....looking at this episode in respect to the rest of the
season as we've seen it, the growth in Nikita's character has been remarkable.
I wonder if they are on their way to a relationship as equals next season?
Mary Anne
Dentav
> It's like Denise/Dentav/whoeverthehellsheis keeps
>reminding us, "Jergbutt doesn't want to hurt anyone. He can't help it if he
>makes
>people gag."
>
>Chris
Chris is that a subtle (?) hint that I need to change my signature line? = )
Ok. Thanks for reminding me to do so....
Denise
"Its ok. He's one of the good ones. He's in what I call the 5% club...he's one
of us." Walter on Jurgen
Suzita
Nikitapoo wrote in message <19980921152918...@ng62.aol.com>...
>
>>
>>> >s
>>> >s
>>> >s
>>> >
>>> >s
>>> >s
>>> >s
>>> >
>>> >s
>>> >s
>>> >s
>>> >
>>
>>>
>>> Michael didn't take a hike. He was being cautious. Even without
focusing
>>> on what comes next (in the arc), I could see that he was protecting them
>>(or
>>> trying to). Don't forget that they (M and J) obviously had a history
>>("Good
>>> to see you Michael"), and Michael knew more about the type of person J
is,
>>> and probably what he would stoop to, than he let on.
>>>
>>
>> Nikita
>>seemed to have lost her senses of the danger they were in and selfishly
was
>>ready to endanger Michael also with her impatience. I don't think Nikita
>>deserved Michael after the way she acted and her resorting to trying to
make
>>him jealous was rather childish and celf centered after all he had risked
for
>>her. I could not muster up a shred of sympathy for her characer with the
way
>>she behaved. Micahel seemed to me to be the only one thinking with his
head
>>not his hormones.
>
>that everyone was acting out of character and Michael seemed to be the only
>person still aware that they were in section. He acted heroically in spite
of
>riddance' after one of her tantrums. I was most disappointed in Nikita's
for me
>who
>has been begging dh to watch this cool show with this cool chick and the
first
and
>simply turned to me and said, "This guy! Yeah, I remember him. Why
didn't
>they kill him off now and just get it over with? Would have saved us all a
lot
>of grief."
>
>
>"Some people will believe anything if you whisper it."
My friend, to whom I loaned my tapes to, saw this episode first on tape. At
the time, she said "That is the dumbest thing I have seen. Poor Nikita, cold
Michael." Well now, after having seen Mercy (in which she fell in love with
the love Michael has for Nikita) and Hard Landing (which displayed to her an
even greater sacrifice on Michael's part, and greater risk on Nikita's), she
came to me today and said that 'it all makes sense now". Where she felt
contempt for Michael on the first viewing of Spec Ops, she now feels disgust
at Nikita's actions and compassion for Michael and his predicament.
I have to agree.
But I would add, for myself, that Nikita is not selfish, per se, she is
simply narrow minded and unwilling to open her eyes. She does not examine
the bigger picture and understand just how true Michael's concerns are. She
turned to Jurgen after Michael's "get over it" statement. What she should
have done was step back and reflect on what he meant by all his words of
caution. She simply was seeing the situation while wearing blinders.
I do not fault Michael. She is who opened the opportunity for M & O to
order Michael to play her to get to Jurgen.
Suzita
Suzita
Heather wrote in message <36066BAF...@Xwest-server.com>...
>Dentav wrote:
>
>> Ah.....been waiting for this moment since January. And like fine
wine...this
>> episode gets better with age!
>>
>> s
>> s
>> s
>> s
>>
>> s
>> s
>> s
>>
>> s
>> s
>>
>> s
>> s
>> s
>
><snip>
>
>> Michael: One bad episode for Michael. Blackmailing a man on his death
bed,
>> lying to his superiors, offering an escape to NIkita and yet saying he
'HAD' to
>> stay. Why? He'd face death either way if found out? Why not be free and
take
>> your chances? Suggesting, ever so slyly that Nikita 'handle' Jurgen. I
think
>> he was saying KILL him. She thought that too. And when he saw Jurgen
walk
>> into the hall and saw he hadn't kicked the bucket boy did he looked
peeved.
>
>why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he
know that
>if she did she would be canceled for killing another op?? stupid stupid
stupid
>move on michael's part. yes i am an HR when it comes to M&N, but did he
hate
to turn
>around and see her die because of it?? he was not looking at the bigger
picture
>that time.----
>For a non-spam reply please remove both X's.
>Thank you and good night.
(At first, I thought he meant for her to sleep with Jurgen, thereby getting
him to feel for Nikita and then not want to turn her in. But that doesn't
necessarily make sense.) I don't think he did it out of hate for Jurgen,
but rather out of non-trust for Jurgen. He obviously knew Jurgen from way
back, and must have known what he is capable of. For that, he tried to
remove him from the equation.
But her agreeeing to attempt to kill Jurgen begs the same question you
raise. Didn't she, too, know that that would get her cancelled. Stupid,
stupid, stupid.
Suzita (seeing the flip side)
>
>
Dentav
>But her agreeeing to attempt to kill Jurgen begs the same question you
>raise. Didn't she, too, know that that would get her cancelled. Stupid,
>stupid, stupid.
Suzita, this was the BIG problem I had with the ep the first time around...I
have a post from then that addresses this very big gap in the storyline.
What was Nikita going to tell O/M? Well I was training and accidently slipped
with a 9 inch blade in my hand and decapitated Jurgen? (Yes, I know some of you
love this scenario. <GRIN>)
And how was she going to dispose of the body? With all those cameras and
listening devices did she NOT think that someone might spot her sneaking out of
the Section with a dead guy draped over her shoulder and bleeding profusely?
That is why I plead temporary insanity on her part. She took the suggestion
from Michael as being the ONLY way out of the situation without really
addressing the consequences.
I mean really...she can barely kill a fly if its not bothering her. How could
she kill Jurgen...in cold blood?
Made no sense to me...and still doesn't.
Denise
REvans7877
I finally saw J'en Suis and I don't want to know he looked kinda rough there
>ROTFLMAO...
>
>I guess his second rule would be sex first, questions later.
>
>Denise
>Who watches Jens Suis and dreams how Michael could be...
A>A>M>
" I went to the hospita and then they had to commit me you told them all I was
crazy now they've cut off my legs now I'm an amputee damn you..... "
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> >. She "rebounded" for no
> >reason.
>
> she had plenty reason to rebound the guy was brushing her off again
I've got it! We are watching two completely different tv series?! The LFN on
at your house is not the same one that shows in mine. Funny how viewers can
walk away from watching the same thing with completely different ideas as to
what happened. I just don't see him telling her to be patient and to "get
over" being tired of being careful as a brush off. I tell you what, if you
value your life in section you better get over being tired of being careful.
Especially when you are under evaluation after being on the outside for 6
months.
>
> > Although after her childish and selfish actions she did not deserve
> >him at that point.
>
> You lost me, she just gave up freedom for this guy,
I highly doubt she gave up freedom just for Michael. That I came back for you
may have had a grain of truth to it but in my opinion that line was to lay
the guilt on. She said herself that being on the outside was not all it was
cracked up to me, and she looked pretty honest and sad while saying it.
personally I'd be pretty
> pissed off myself I'll admit I wouldn't have handled it like Nikita but
> everybody has to deal, and personally I think she has earned the right to be
> selfish come on she's been manulated, lied to, brushed off by Micheal
Sorry I didn't see her as manipulated, lied to or brushed off. Matter of
opinion I guess.
>
> >
>
> I saw her tring to save her pride if that may your idea of pathetic
To save her pride? Geez, she just ended up looked silly. It was obvious she
was trying to make Michael jealous. In the section hallway she asks Michael
to tell her to stop seeing Jurgen if he didn't like it. He asks her if that
is all it would take. She says..maybe...maybe not. Of course Michael was
smart enough not to take the bait and THEN he brushed her off. But heck, I
thought that scene was funny. We all knew she wanted him and he wanted her
but at that point they were to stubborn to admit it. It was obvious from her
behavior at Jurgens house that she was uncomfortable with him. I didn't
believe for two seconds she was really really attracted to the guy.
va
Stremy1
> > why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he
>know
>> that
I had to laugh when Michael said that. Jurgen is a not only bigger than Nikita
(no small feat) but older and a much more experienced OP than she. Did Michael
really think she had a shot at him? Looked more to me like Michael was trying
to get Nikita to do his dirty work for him.
khi...@my-dejanews.com
>
> > why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he
know
> that
I didn't start taping the episodes until later on in mid Season so I relied
alot on memory and apparently I'm getting old all I can say is *WTF* was she
thinking here?
What gave her the idea that take care of it meant killing Jurgen? She was
already under suspicion did she really think if she stabbed Jurgen that
Michael could pull her fat out of the fryer from that one?
Mercy all I can think of is a Michael quote at this point" Nikita works best
when scripted" apparently Michael screwed up by not telling her what take care
of it specifically meant...
I can't believe it I actually feel sorry for Michael right now the pressure
to think rationally unemotionally for both of them at this point must be
enormous.
REvans7877
>
>I've got it! We are watching two completely different tv series?! The LFN on
>at your house is not the same one that shows in mine. Funny how viewers can
>walk away from watching the same thing with completely different ideas as to
>what happened. I just don't see him telling her to be patient and to "get
>over" being tired of being careful as a brush off. I tell you what, if you
>value your life in section you better get over being tired of being careful.
>Especially when you are under evaluation after being on the outside for 6
>months.
>
I saw what Micheal did as cold and basically Micheal I have never seen the
attraction between those 2 I've always seen Micheal as a bitter disturbed dead
as a doornob cold individual and you are right about Nikita not deserving
Micheal hell I don't think anybody deserves Micheal nobody could have done
anything that bad.
As far as Nikita being whiny I never noticed what I saw a really confused and
really pissed off little blonde cookie and rightfully so in my opinion.
@@@@@@@ Well allI can say is that she at least tried to save her pride.
It was obvious she
>was trying to make Michael jealous. In the section hallway she asks Michael
>to tell her to stop seeing Jurgen if he didn't like it.
@@@@@@@@ Funny what I saw was her tring to get a straight answer out him. At
that point I'm more than certain she had doubts about him and in a round about
way she was looking for reassurance.
He asks her if that
>is all it would take. She says..maybe...maybe not. Of course Michael was
>smart enough not to take the bait and THEN he brushed her off. But heck, I
>thought that scene was funny. We all knew she wanted him and he wanted her
>but at that point they were to stubborn to admit it. It was obvious from her
>behavior at Jurgens house that she was uncomfortable with him. I didn't
>believe for two seconds she was really really attracted to the guy.
>
>
>va
>
>
>. She says..maybe...maybe not.
@@@@@@@@@@@ Yeah and she wanted to play head games granted Micheal is much
better at them but give her a few years she'll get better, and you really don't
see how open for rejection her just saying yes would have left her do you? At
this point I'm sure the last thing Nikita wants is to give him something else
over her. Childish it may seem but you would be suprised how self preservation
works.
Of course Michael was
>smart enough not to take the bait and THEN he brushed her off.
@@@@@@@Ok or dumb enough not to reel her back in to him.
But heck, I
>thought that scene was funny. We all knew she wanted him and he wanted her
>but at that point they were to stubborn to admit it. It was obvious from her
>behavior at Jurgens house that she was uncomfortable with him.
@@@@@@@@@Ok I missed the discomfort maybe I'm blind
I didn't
>believe for two seconds she was really really attracted to the guy.
>
>
>va
@@@@@@@This is a case where we all see what we want to see.
I say get a new regular on there someone young and cute and displays human
qualities such as smiling joking and laughing who likes Nikita give her
someone else of her species
Granvia
>
>I finally saw J'en Suis and I don't want to know he looked kinda rough there
>
>>ROTFLMAO...
>>
>>I guess his second rule would be sex first, questions later.
>>
>>Denise
>>Who watches Jens Suis and dreams how Michael could be...
>
>
>A>A>M>
>
>
Amanda, I need clarification. When you say, "he looked kinda rough there," were
you referring to his role or his roll?
<G> Anxious to know
CATKNSN
>I think the girl needs to be given a break. >How many of us at the tender age
>of 23 (?) would have reacted with dignity, >grace and maturity after giving up
>our liberty under the false assumption that the >man that you love was going
to be with you?
I'm not saying she could be expected to smile and say "that's okay, we'll never
be together, I understand" *but* she had JUST come back, she knew she was
totally under suspicion about her cheesy story of where she was, that Michael
was totally under suspicion, and that they were both in extreme danger. Nikita
was not brand new to Section. She knew how they operated and what was going on.
To push for anything more than mutually working together to stay alive at that
point was childish and yes, I do think that at 23 I would have appreciated the
priorities of that situation. (Assuming I can still remember that far
back...*grin*)
I think her *feelings* were understandable but I don't like the way she chose
to express them, and I think she was expecting the impossible from Michael
under the circumstances. Again, Nikita was not brand new to Section, nor is
she stupid. I don't think that making sure you're going to stay alive before
exploring the status of your relationship was too much for Michael to ask or
evidence of his insensitivity in some way.
Cathy
REvans7877
LOL Both
>
>Amanda, I need clarification. When you say, "he looked kinda rough there,"
>were
>you referring to his role or his roll?
>
><G> Anxious to know
>"If you want to be accepted for who you are, stop pretending you're someone
>else..."
>
>
Chris Touhey
MaryAnne wrote:
> As for Nikita's attitude in this episode....I though she had a generally
> typical young female reaction to having had sex with Michael. She thought it
> would change things. He'd tell her he loved her, they'd hold hands and
> kiss...yadda yadda yaddda. Sex doesn't always change relationships for men.
> This all in addition to the fact that Michael knew they'd be placing themselves
> in danger of cancellation if Operations and Maddy became aware of their
> feelings for each other. Of course, unbenownst to Michael, Maddy definately
> had a clue. Anyway....looking at this episode in respect to the rest of the
> season as we've seen it, the growth in Nikita's character has been remarkable.
> I wonder if they are on their way to a relationship as equals next season?
I'm glad to see this POV expressed. I definitely saw some of the "starry-eyed,
young woman in love" dynamic going on with Nikita. The first time around I was
more impatient and frustrated (angry) with her attitude, but for some reason I
seemed to view her with different eyes this time around.
It's easy to forget that Nikita was really no more than a kid living on the streets
before she was snatched by Section and turned into a lean, mean killin' machine.
Because she has risen to conquer these impossible odds while still maintaining some
semblance of individualism, I believe that we have very high expectations for
Nikita. But when I consider what her emotional state must have been after Mercy &
the 6 month vacation, I see her reactions as much more believable.
She knew she was to be canceled, knew that Michael saved her, experienced physical
intimacy with him, and apparently made it back into Section without getting
killed. I can see why she would have appeared to block out all other reality and
focus on Michael and be a little whiny if anything interfered. Now it's been
longer than I can remember since I was infatuated with anyone, but if I remember
correctly, good judgment seems to go out the window when one is in this particular
state of mind.
I have to agree that I was also pleased with Nikita's growth during the past
season. I do not believe that we will see M&N have a "relationship as equals" next
season -- that would be much too early in her development. I do believe she will
continue to become a better operative. I also think their relationship will
progress, but will develop new facets. The romantic aspect will be characterized
as feast & famine, much as it has been. And like darkness before the light, I
believe Michael will become colder & more distant before
Chris
Rita
>something a gentleman would do, but clearly in keeping with DC politics of today.
>
>:)
Rita
>G > In other words, M&O had a lot to do with distancing Michael and Nikita.
Good point, Granvia
Rita
>I mean really...she can barely kill a fly if its not bothering her. How could
>she kill Jurgen...in cold blood?
>
>Made no sense to me...and still doesn't.
>
>Denise
no sense to me. I think Michael is much too smart to suggest that
Nikita do something that couldn't be covered and I don't see how
Jurgen's death could have been. Also, I think Michael knows Nikita
too well to believe her capable of killing at that point, unless it
was self defense. Just made no sense at all.
The other story hole I saw in this ep was when Michael went to talk to
Nikita in medical. He walks in, puts the scrambling device up.
The op who is monitoring the room says he's lost the signal. Michael
and Nikita talk then he leaves and the signal magically is restored.
Geesh, he would be smart enough to hang around for a while making
innocuous conversation before leaving. They actually want us to
believe that no one is going to notice that the disruption coincided
exactly with Michael's entrance and exit? I'd say that's stretching
our credibility juuuust a mite. <g>
Rita
>But I would add, for myself, that Nikita is not selfish, per se, she is
>simply narrow minded and unwilling to open her eyes. She does not examine
Good post, Suzita. I saw Nikita as young, shallow and self-absorbed
in this ep which seemed so at odds with the way she had handled
herself to this point. This is a street kid who seemed so much more
together in season one. Although her heart is often bigger than her
brain, she is a pretty smart cooky. And, it wasn't as if Michael
seduced her and then just turned weird. She answered his message,
helped instigate the sex and then the morning after, they discussed
the problems they faced. So, for her to suddenly start acting like a
teeny-bopper with no clue, just seemed completely out of character to
me
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> @@@@@ Ok it's obvious that your going to defend Micheal to the last word.
>
> I saw what Micheal did as cold and basically Micheal I have never seen the
> attraction between those 2 I've always seen Micheal as a bitter disturbed dead
> as a doornob cold individual and you are right about Nikita not deserving
> Micheal hell I don't think anybody deserves Micheal nobody could have done
> anything that bad.
Oh goodness sorry if I upset you! I was trying to be lighthearted about it
becasue it always amazes me how two people can walk away from watching the
same ep and come away with completely different views! You sound very upset
that was not my intent. We are here to discuss the show and what we
like/dislike about what is going on with each particular episode. You can
like Michael or not. I do defend him, and I didn't see him do anything wrong.
If I see something I don't agree with I think that stating why is what this
forum is for. But I know Michael is ruthless and cold when he needs to be and
I like that aspect of his character. Believe me I don't make him out to be an
angel and would be disappointed if he was. Sorry, but I am not convinced in
the least that he did anything wrong and I do think Nikita did not deserve
him after the way she acted. It is just my opinion!
>
> As far as Nikita being whiny I never noticed what I saw a really confused and
> really pissed off little blonde cookie and rightfully so in my opinion.
Ok, pissed off little blonde cookie not THAT is funny! LOL! Yes I agree she
was pissed off, and well the blonde cookie thing, well that is cute. :-) I
did not think she had the slighest right to be ticked and I think Michael
should have booted her sorry butt back out the section door after the way she
treated him! But that is just my opinon and you are certainly entitled to
yours. We both obviously feel very strongly the opposite in this situation. I
can see that you are going to defend "her" to the letter also and I see
nothing wrong with that. Why not just agree to disagree and not get upset
over the other person's opinion, ok?
>
I guess I should have put my usual disclaimer! My dislike of the arc and
Nikita's actions during such are in no way meant to offend anyone. There are
just my opinion and if I disagree with anything that is said by someone it is
nothing personal, just my take on the episode/character/show. Ok?!
va
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> be together, I understand" *but* she had JUST come back, she knew she was
> totally under suspicion about her cheesy story of where she was, that Michael
> was totally under suspicion, and that they were both in extreme danger.
I agree, why bother taking the chance to come back in only to blow it because
of impatience?
>
> I think she was expecting the impossible from Michael
> under the circumstances.
I agree, she wanted too much too fast and was not thinking logically. I was
glad Michael kept his cool and didn't give in to the pressure. Probably why
they are both alive today.
Again, Nikita was not brand new to Section, nor is
> she stupid. I don't think that making sure you're going to stay alive before
> exploring the status of your relationship was too much for Michael to ask or
> evidence of his insensitivity in some way.
I agree here also, get through the evaluation and then see where the
relationship will go. Michael was in a total panic trying to get rid of every
obstacle in their way, the least she could have done was wait it out.
JMHO!
va
>
> Cathy
REvans7877
I wasn't upset that's just how I write I thought I had written in after >>
@@@@@ Ok it's obvious that your going to defend Micheal to the last word. >>
>
>Oh goodness sorry if I upset you! I was trying to be lighthearted about it
>becasue it always amazes me how two people can walk away from watching the
Again I wasn't upset that's just what I think about Micheal not to say that I
don't like him I think he's cool (no pun intended ok pun intended)
>I like that aspect of his character. Believe me I don't make him out to be an
>angel and would be disappointed if he was. Sorry, but I am not convinced in
>the least that he did anything wrong and I do think Nikita did not deserve
>him after the way she acted. It is just my opinion!
So do I apparently in very different ways , and like I said Nikita doesn't
deserve Micheal and that's just my opinion no biggie
>I
>can see that you are going to defend "her" to the letter also and I see
>nothing wrong with that.
refer to first line of the post : )
> Why not just agree to disagree and not get upset
>over the other person's opinion, ok
Again I wasn't upset, I like Nikita and sometimes feel the need to stand my
ground don't do that often.
>
>I guess I should have put my usual disclaimer! My dislike of the arc and
>Nikita's actions during such are in no way meant to offend anyone. There are
>just my opinion and if I disagree with anything that is said by someone it is
>nothing personal, just my take on the episode/character/show. Ok?!
>
>
Ok maybe I should have put my if I had one I would
Thefoxx210
Chris and EZ - LOL!
I laughed so hard. It's good to read someone else's perspective on things, it
reminds me that I take this soap opera way to seriously sometimes.
Laren450
khimera wrote:
>In article <6u673v$gng$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> >
>> > why the hell did michael suggest for nikita to kill jurgen?? wouldn't he
>know
>> that
>> > if she did she would be canceled for killing another op?? stupid
>
>
>I didn't start taping the episodes until later on in mid Season so I relied
>alot on memory and apparently I'm getting old all I can say is *WTF* was she
>thinking here?
>
>What gave her the idea that take care of it meant killing Jurgen? She was
>already under suspicion did she really think if she stabbed Jurgen that
>Michael could pull her fat out of the fryer from that one?
>
>
>Mercy all I can think of is a Michael quote at this point" Nikita works best
>when scripted" apparently Michael screwed up by not telling her what take
>care
>of it specifically meant...
>
>I can't believe it I actually feel sorry for Michael right now the pressure
>to think rationally unemotionally for both of them at this point must be
>enormous.
To me, Michael seemed to be saying "take car e of Jurgen anyway you can;
whether it means sleeping with him or killing him or anything else you can
improvise." It was up to Nikita to decide which method she preferred.
Maybe, since M and N slept together, N expected him to change his
personality/behavior. When they returned to Section and he was the same old
Michael, she was probably disappointed and frustrated. That could explain her
actions.
I side with those who found her behavior inappropriate (did anyone see that
"Inappropriate" skit on the Conan O'Brien late night talk show? Perfect for
Nikita) but understandable.
---------------------------------------------------
----Laren (ROFLMAO)
Nikita, "I'm tired of being careful."
Michael, "Get over it."
>>>"Spec Ops"
Laren450
Granvia wrote:
>I agree with Amanda and Denise. Michael meant kill Jurgen, not seduce him.
>That was my understanding when I heard his instruction to Nikita to do
>whatever
>it took. She thought so, too.
>
>Otherwise, reiterating, Michael wouldn't have said, "You signed our death
>warrant" when he saw Jurgen walk pass them.
>
LOL (at myself). With the camera shot to Madeliene and Ops, I took M's
statement to mean "you're putting us under deeper suspicion by talking to me
with M/O watching.
*chuckle* Apparently (as someone here has suggested) I'm watching a different
LFN than everyone else.
>Doubtful that Michael would have wanted Nikita to have sex with Jurgen, and
>Jurgen, attracted though he had become to Nikita, would not have been swayed
>by
>such an obvious ploy.
>
>What guarantee would there been for Nikita that he wouldn't have squealed on
>her after being intimate with her?
Dentav
Excellent post Chris. I humbly agree with you on all points.
Denise
Jaida
Rita wrote in message <360b2748...@news.pacbell.net>...
>>
>
>The other story hole I saw in this ep was when Michael went to talk to
>Nikita in medical. He walks in, puts the scrambling device up.
>The op who is monitoring the room says he's lost the signal. Michael
>and Nikita talk then he leaves and the signal magically is restored.
>Geesh, he would be smart enough to hang around for a while making
>innocuous conversation before leaving. They actually want us to
>believe that no one is going to notice that the disruption coincided
>exactly with Michael's entrance and exit? I'd say that's stretching
>our credibility juuuust a mite. <g>
This bothered me too.
Jaida
EZBatoutahell
> >I think the girl needs to be given a break. >How many of us at the
tender age
> >of 23 (?) would have reacted with dignity, >grace and maturity after
giving up
> >our liberty under the false assumption that the >man that you love
was going
> to be with you?
First off, she had given up on her "liberty"....
She had come to terms with the reality that there wasn't a life outside
of section for her anymore....
She came back "for Michael".....more because he gave her a way back in....
Yeah, I can see where she may have expected a bit more from him at first...
But what I see as poor character development and writing is the smart,
wise, tough chick who had it together enough to go back IN section....
Became the sterotypical whiney, "my life isn't a life without a man" female
at the first rough patch in the road.....
Yeah...
Colin, I am pumped up on Estrogen (synthetic, but it works).....
Geez, I have no patience or pity for that kind of female (hence me riding shotgun
in the truck during the great Lisa Fanning Banning Bunting Hunt)
> I'm not saying she could be expected to smile and say "that's okay, we'll never
> be together, I understand" *but* she had JUST come back, she knew she was
> totally under suspicion about her cheesy story of where she was, that Michael
> was totally under suspicion, and that they were both in extreme danger. Nikita
> was not brand new to Section. She knew how they operated and what was going on.
> To push for anything more than mutually working together to stay alive at that
> point was childish and yes, I do think that at 23 I would have appreciated the
> priorities of that situation. (Assuming I can still remember that far
> back...*grin*)
Great, stay home sick.....
All hell breaks loose (here and at work....sheesh)....
Ok....
One of the big premises of the show is that Nikita is street tough...
a survivor of abuse, neglect and abandonment....
Supposedly very strong and savvy at 23.....
Yet, she acts like a debutante with broken nail....
Guys, trust me,
she does NOT act like someone who has been through hell and back...
I mean, there she doesn't show any integrity or strength of character....
Again, believe me, in all my dealings in the foster system, (heck, in all
my dealings with ME!)
there a 3, 5 and 14 year olds with more steel in their spine than Nikita...
There a little chicks and big chicks out there who, while damaged and
messed up.....have amazing survival skills....
Who can assess a situation in a heartbeat and figure out the route to staying
alive....
Nikita doesn't show any of this....
She was like Gidget who suddenly feel into section after a fight with
Moondog (who I thought was just dreamy...'nuther story)
> I think her *feelings* were understandable but I don't like the way she chose
> to express them, and I think she was expecting the impossible from Michael
> under the circumstances. Again, Nikita was not brand new to Section, nor is
> she stupid. I don't think that making sure you're going to stay alive
before
> exploring the status of your relationship was too much for Michael to
ask or
> evidence of his insensitivity in some way.
Exactly,
Michael didn't overtly reject her as a person,
he DID however, tell her to cool her jets, behave, "get over it"....
basically, act like an adult who happens to be under the thumb of section....
He never said they would NEVER have a relationship, just "be patient"....
After what, 2 weeks? she is off with the J'persnapper?...
Uh....Not exactly mature if you ask me....
The whole Jurgen premise would have worked better IMHGLO if J had been a
female....
Someone exactly like Nikita (right down to the estrogen)......
Someone who instead of a love interest (I HATE jealously and triangles..
how absolutely juvenile!).....
She could have become a friend, a buddy and guide....
A confedant instead of competition for Michael....
So, to me.....
The pissing contest started in the Land of the York Peppermint Pattie....
ie, in the writing....
EZBee,
Ok...who stole my Sudafed?
Rita
>The pissing contest started in the Land of the York Peppermint Pattie....
>ie, in the writing....
>
>EZBee,
>Ok...who stole my Sudafed?
Wow, EZBee, you're starting to scare me. Were we separated a birth?
Dentav
>which I assume is the version the people who
>make the show chose as the way they wanted us to see it.
> JMNSHO
>Rita
I agree with you Rita. I don't normally read scripts either and pay no
attention to most of them.
But because there were so many gaps in this ARC I ordered them to see what was
missing and was shocked by what we DIDN'T see.
I think we got a diluted and watered down essence of what could have been a
phenomenal trilogy. And the fans saw that. Many complained of inconsistency,
lack of continuity and confusion.
So I think edits don't always occur because TPTB changed the storyline or
didn't like the way something looked but rather sometimes great pieces of film
end up on the floor due to time constraints or other practical reasons not
having to do with the creative process. IMHO.
Perhaps this was one example...
Denise
REvans7877
Then again everybody knows Micheal isn't exactly the most talkative person in
section that would probably seem stranger to them if he was still there after 3
minutes it would probably draw a crowd to the screen.
operative: Hey guys come see this Micheal 's talking to somebody for 10 whole
minutes look his mouth is moving!
A>A>M>
" Can you smell what the rock is cookin?.. "
(don't ask please don't ask)
REvans7877
>But I would add, for myself, that Nikita is not selfish, per se, she is
>>simply narrow minded and unwilling to open her eyes. She does not examine
so basically your typical woman in love?
rubye...@my-dejanews.com
?? I totally misread that. I thought he meant use her wiles on him, seduce
him. To kill him would make no sense. She'd never get out of Section alive.
--
Ruby
~~starting a landslide in my ego~~
MaryAS
Chris wrote :
focus on Michael and be a little whiny if anything interfered. Now it's been
longer than I can remember since I was infatuated with anyone, but if I
remember
correctly, good judgment seems to go out the window when one is in this
particular state of mind.<<
Chris, you remember correctly. At least when it comes to infatuation :D I
recently came across old journals I kept when I was in my twenties....and good
heavens did I do some STUPID things all in then name of "love" ! Gosh it's nice
to know that it can affect men the same way :) And thank God for our ability
to learn from our mistakes, especially in this area!
Excellent post as always Chris...well thought and well stated :)
An older and much wiser
Mary Anne
Suzita
REvans7877 wrote in message <19980923153423...@ng88.aol.com>...
LOL! I would agree, except that she is a woman in love in Section. She
should never have let down her guard or suspicions of Secion. After all,
they had ordered her cancellation only 6 months earlier.
Suzita
REvans7877
True enough but it doesn't really matter if your in the middle of a crisis
women do stupid things for love take titantic for example the woman jumped off
of 2 life boats not just 1 but 2! to be with that guy whatever his name is in
that movie
Suzita
REvans7877 wrote in message <19980923211546...@ng57.aol.com>...
>
>True enough but it doesn't really matter if your in the middle of a crisis
>women do stupid things for love take titantic for example the woman jumped
off
>of 2 life boats not just 1 but 2! to be with that guy whatever his name is
in
>that movie
>
lifeboat for the one I love to survive.
Suzita
REvans7877
No he couldn't get on the boat she just jumped off to die with him
Granvia
Yeah, but the cold water shocked her out of her stupor and she let go of his
hand and he sank.
G > Survival of the fittest - primal rule
>
>
>True enough but it doesn't really matter if your in the middle of a crisis
>women do stupid things for love take titantic for example the woman jumped
>off
>of 2 life boats not just 1 but 2! to be with that guy whatever his name is
>in
>that movie
>
>
>
>>
>>LOL! I would agree, except that she is a woman in love in Section. She
>>should never have let down her guard or suspicions of Secion. After all,
>>they had ordered her cancellation only 6 months earlier.
>>
>>
>
>
>A>A>M>
" Michael is the moon to Nikita's tide." gvd
Rita
>Never saw that movie. But for love I would gladly give up my spot in the
>lifeboat for the one I love to survive.
love I think Michael feels for Nikita. However, I think that is very
different from playing silly games "in the name of love."
As to Nikita being a typical young woman in love, I find that rather
sad that so many seem to accept selfishness and jealousy as a "normal"
part of love. And for Nikita's character, I just don't buy it. This
is not your average starry eyed romantic. This is a young woman who
has been living by her wits on the street for a good portion of her
life, who has been trained and lived the life of a Section operative
for several years, has come close to being canceled, has been
kidnapped etc etc etc. I just don't buy the sappy, "but I'm in
looove" bit.
And, for that matter I have been young (believe it or not) and I have
been in love, deeply in love and I can absolutely guarantee that I
never dreamed of playing those kinds of games. Real love is caring
about the other person as much or more than yourself. Nikita wasn't
showing love when she put Michael's life in jeopardy or when she
"stomped her foot" and pulled her little "I'll show you, if you don't
want me I'll find someone who does." That, IMNSHO, is the action of
a petulant, spoiled 14 yr old. And I find it highly implausible for
Nikita.
Stremy1
> that what Michael meant when he told Nikita to do "whatever you have to"
>?? I totally misread that. I thought he meant use her wiles on him, seduce
>him.
I can't imagine Michael thinking that having Nikita sleep with Jurgen would
have much of an effect on him. He himself had just slept with her, to no
noticeable effect whatsoever. I think he meant to kill Jurgen, which was almost
as bizarre, except that it would have taken care of the nasty little blackmail
problem.
dentav...@my-dejanews.com
Stremy...I agree. Not only did it have little effect on him, he was so
moved that he went right back to Section instead of TRYING to figure out a
way to keep he and Nikita away. I think that would hurt me the most if I
were her.
And I wonder why Michael wanted Jurgen dead so badly. I am not sure it was
merely because he knew about the two of them. I think their history could
have given us a key.
I think in Third Person when Michael sends Jurgen and his crew on their own
insane mission MAYBE it was another attempt to rid the problem since Nikita
had been unable or unwilling to do so.
I just don't see how a visible, live Jurgen would be evidence that they had
not had sex and therefore Michael could SEE Nikita had not fulfilled his
request, it it was sex. Is it over? Is what he asked Nikita and she said
yes. Then Jurgen walked into the room much to Michael's surprise. Was
Nikita supposed to screw him dead? Maybe that is what Michael had in mind. =
)
Denise
rubye...@my-dejanews.com
ri...@pacbell.net (Rita ) wrote:
> >>
> part of love. And for Nikita's character, I just don't buy it. This
> is not your average starry eyed romantic. This is a young woman who
> has been living by her wits on the street for a good portion of her
> life, who has been trained and lived the life of a Section operative
> for several years, has come close to being canceled, has been
> kidnapped etc etc etc. I just don't buy the sappy, "but I'm in
> looove" bit.
> Nikita wasn't
> showing love when she put Michael's life in jeopardy or when she
> "stomped her foot" and pulled her little "I'll show you, if you don't
> want me I'll find someone who does." That, IMNSHO, is the action of
> a petulant, spoiled 14 yr old. And I find it highly implausible for
> Nikita.
I dunno. Being on the streets from a young girl up may make her streetwise,
but that has nothing to do with emotional maturity. I think she's stunted.
She's had no stability, no parental love, was accused of a crime she didn't
commit and sent to a place where she had to become someone she was the very
antithesis of, or *die*. I wouldn't say the girl's had a lot of options or
the right experiences to make her capable of adult love.... yet. Michael was
probably the first man in her life who didn't treat her like crap, abandon
her, or try and seduce her. He was a friend and mentor, something she's never
had. Isn't it natural she'd develop a crush on him? Feel love for him? So,
for me, the "silly" Nikita we often see at the end of season 1 and some of
season 2 doesn't seem so silly to me...
> never dreamed of playing those kinds of games. Real love is caring
> about the other person as much or more than yourself.
Completely agree. BUT. If you've never had real love in your life, then what?
--
Ruby
~~starting a landslide in my ego~~
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
CATKNSN
>True enough but it doesn't really matter if your in the middle of a crisis
>women do stupid things for love take titantic for example the woman jumped
>off
>of 2 life boats not just 1 but 2! to be with that guy whatever his name is
LOL. Evidently not a Titanic fan? Well, that was a little different. She
knew he was going to die without her if she saved her own butt and left him.
She knew she was never going to see him again. That's not really a parallel
to Nikita pushing for a relationship ill-advisedly in a situation where if she
had shown a little patience, there was a good chance that she and Michael were
going to both survive *and* have a chance for a relationship in the future.
If you want the LFN parallel to the Titanic scene, it would be Ops deciding to
blast his way out of his nice, safe, virus-free office and go to Maddy in
"Inside Out".
Cathy
EZBabbleOn
> Nikita supposed to screw Jurgen dead? Maybe that is what Michael had in
>mind.
~~sigh~~
I hereby volunteer for the suicide mission with Michael,
whenever the need arises....
Honest, really.....
I want to sacrifice my bod...
I mean,
my LIFE for the greater good....
Seriously....
EZBee,
I regret that I only have one.....er,hmmmm.....
United we stand,...uh no, that doesn't work either....
dentav...@my-dejanews.com
ROTFLMAO...after I sent that I thought OH NO I just inadvertently invited
another flamefest my way. But no....= )
Instead we have EZ volunteering. = )
I guess its a dirty job but someone's got to do it. hehe.
Denise
Who won't mourn for EZ if she HAS to die this way. = ) Poor thing...
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> >
>
> Stremy...I agree. Not only did it have little effect on him, he was so
> moved that he went right back to Section instead of TRYING to figure out a
> way to keep he and Nikita away. I think that would hurt me the most if I
> were her.
>
I think both Michael and Nikita know that life outside of section is not much
better than life in, possibly worse.
va
>
> I think in Third Person when Michael sends Jurgen and his crew on their own
> insane mission MAYBE it was another attempt to rid the problem since Nikita
> had been unable or unwilling to do so.
I'm sorry I just don't give much credit to Jurgen's views on how the mission
should have been handled. Obviously Michael had much more experience than him
because he was in charge. I am sure its not the first time a subordinate has
questioned the "boss's" or "team leader's" orders. Now I don't think Michael
would have been all broken up had jurgen died but I do think that Michael
made the right call. Jurgen's opinion of how it should have been done holds
little weight as he obviously had less experience than Michael. When Jurgen
tried to give him "lip" and Michael said "Conversations over..move in" I
nearly fell off the cough laughing!
> I just don't see how a visible, live Jurgen would be evidence that they had
> not had sex and therefore Michael could SEE
Your reading way more into that look than I did. I was shocked when Nikita
showed up with the knife, it never even crossed my mind that that was what he
was asking her.
va
Suzita
Rita wrote in message <3620ba81...@news.pacbell.net>...
>>>
>>Never saw that movie. But for love I would gladly give up my spot in the
>>lifeboat for the one I love to survive.
>Suzita, as would I. But, we are talking about real love. The kind of
>love I think Michael feels for Nikita. However, I think that is very
>different from playing silly games "in the name of love."
>
>As to Nikita being a typical young woman in love, I find that rather
>sad that so many seem to accept selfishness and jealousy as a "normal"
>is not your average starry eyed romantic. This is a young woman who
>has been living by her wits on the street for a good portion of her
>life, who has been trained and lived the life of a Section operative
>for several years, has come close to being canceled, has been
>kidnapped etc etc etc. I just don't buy the sappy, "but I'm in
>looove" bit.
>
>been in love, deeply in love and I can absolutely guarantee that I
>showing love when she put Michael's life in jeopardy or when she
>"stomped her foot" and pulled her little "I'll show you, if you don't
>want me I'll find someone who does." That, IMNSHO, is the action of
>a petulant, spoiled 14 yr old. And I find it highly implausible for
>Nikita.
Whoa. Did I give you the impression that I thought she was showing love or
that it was acceptable to act as she did. No...not at all. I stated,
earlier in this thread, that she had blinders on, wasn't seeing the big
picture,,blah, blah. Her fawning over Michael in the hallways, etc. is when
she wore blinders refusing to see the harm that could come to them. She
became petulant after the "get over it" statement and she obviously made the
choice to spurn Michael and go after Jurgen (remember her poofing her hair
and unzipping her shirt a bit when she entered Jurgen's work area?).
Suzita
Granvia
>>
>> I think in Third Person when Michael sends Jurgen and his crew on their own
>> insane mission MAYBE it was another attempt to rid the problem since Nikita
>> had been unable or unwilling to do so.
>
>
>I'm sorry I just don't give much credit to Jurgen's views on how the mission
>should have been handled. Obviously Michael had much more experience than him
>because he was in charge. I am sure its not the first time a subordinate has
>questioned the "boss's" or "team leader's" orders. Now I don't think Michael
>would have been all broken up had jurgen died but I do think that Michael
>made the right call. Jurgen's opinion of how it should have been done holds
>little weight as he obviously had less experience than Michael. When Jurgen
>tried to give him "lip" and Michael said "Conversations over..move in" I
>nearly fell off the cough laughing!
>
>va
Ah, va, Michaelite that I am, I have to disagree with you and agree with the
other poster. I honestly think Michael just wanted to provoke a convenient and
more quicker way to get rid of Jurgen. Unfortunately, it backfired.
G
Rita
>Whoa. Did I give you the impression that I thought she was showing love or
>that it was acceptable to act as she did. No...not at all.
expounding on your statement.
Rita
Stremy1
>Obviously Michael had much more experience than him
>>because he was in charge.
I got the feeling that Jurgen was actually a well thought of, experienced, and
(dare I say it) also a Level 5 op. I think he was deliberately put in the
difficult situation of being subordinate to Michael to A)put him and him intel
in place, and B) Make it more convenient to have him killed. Jurgen was the
first other op I have seen that made Michael feel a little bit insecure....just
a little bit!
Suzita
Rita wrote in message <360f21e6...@news.pacbell.net>...
>>
>>Whoa. Did I give you the impression that I thought she was showing love
or
>>that it was acceptable to act as she did. No...not at all.
>
>No, no, no, Suzita. Sorry if I misled you. I was agreeing with and
>expounding on your statement.
>
Suzita (relaxing)
dentav...@my-dejanews.com
Ditto...Stremy! And since he was once his mentor and had been around longer
perhaps though he was only a few years older in age and experience he'd paid
his dues on the field and only went on certain missions that required his
presence.
From what I recall he was there only to keep close tabs on Nikita to moniter
her performance and to be on the look out for 'fluctuations' per Maddy's
instructions.
Its a moot point anyway because he's gone. But, I don't think Jurgen would
have played the game the way it was required to advance inside the Section.
You can't be a leader of something you don't believe in or where you don't
want be...
Denise
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> I got the feeling that Jurgen was actually a well thought of, experienced, and
> (dare I say it) also a Level 5 op. I think he was deliberately put in the
> difficult situation of being subordinate to Michael to A)put him and him intel
> in place, and B) Make it more convenient to have him killed. Jurgen was the
> first other op I have seen that made Michael feel a little bit
insecure....just
> a little bit!
I think that Michael had more experience in the field than Jurgen but Jurgen
had probably reached a parallel high level in experience as a psyc. op which
was his speciality. My husband is in the military and they all have a "mos"
which is the particular field they specialize in. Jurgen may have been a
level 5 op in the psychological dept, I don't know. And he was good at it,
got Nikita to fess up the truth. Now it is an interesting point that Jurgen
started going out on field missions so that section could get rid of him
because that is exactly what they intend to do with Nikita as season two
ended. It explains what I thought was really weird, why did they send him out
on a field mission when it obviously was not his speciality. I thought the
writers just wanted to show more interaction between the two but I like your
explaination as it being a way to get rid of him better.
But I still feel, and I could be wrong, that Michael is much more experienced
in the field and Jurgen was just looking to question him because he was not
happy about being placed in a suborinate position of someone he trained. I
also loved the way Michael took control of the situation when he tried to
question his orders. Michael is very good at maintaining authority, probably
his strongest point.
va
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Ditto...Stremy! And since he was once his mentor and had been around longer
> perhaps though he was only a few years older in age and experience he'd paid
> his dues on the field and only went on certain missions that required his
> presence.
Or to show the other side of the coin perhaps Jurgen did not show as much
promise as a field up as he did as a psyc. op. And maybe Michael's strength
was in the field and on the missions. Section chose to promote each within
their strong points.
dentav...@my-dejanews.com
> I could buy that Denise but when you try and paint Michael in a negative
> light by saying something as silly as
I'm not trying to sell you anything. I'm not a salesperson. I do not need to
try to convince you or anyone else. I am merely stating my thoughts...
...Micheal blackmailed kudrin by
> threatening him if he backed out of their bargain and did not say that
> Nikita had been held hostage I feel like because of your dislike of the
> character you are really really reaching for something to pick on. Especially
> when his actions solidified their story and the guy got what he wanted, which
> was to die.>>
I'm sorry. I don't think threatening a man with 'the rest of your life'
being spent in pain and suffering in exchange for information is reaching.
The guy had been injured, pumped with addictive pain killers and then removed
from them. Michael did not come to visit Kudrin in order to relieve his
suffering and help him die with dignity. No Michael only cared and came to
visit Kudrin because he NEEDED something from him.
And instead of just telling him do this for me and I will help you he made
the THREAT and PROMISE to him that he would make sure he stayed like that
forever.
Yes, Kudrin was a terrorist and a bad guy but he was still a human being
suffering and Michael only was concerned to make sure he stayed that way if
he didn't help him.
No...Sorry VA. I won't excuse this as being a necessary event. My
principles don't allow for it. And I bet if Nikita had known Michael would
hurt Kudrin in that fashion she too would have objected. IMHO. He said he'd
take care of him but he didn't say how. I don't think would have approved of
his method. Neither did I.
Also you mentioned lying to his superiors during the arc and
> since the "lie" was something both him and Nikita agreed on and it had to be
> done in order to bring her back in without being immediately cancelled I feel
> like again you are really really reaching for absurd examples to again show
> Michael in a negative light.
>
> >
> > If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck acts like a duck, looks like a
> > duck...its a duck. Or subsitute an I for U and you get the picture.
>
> I just haven't seen that with regards to your opinions on the characters of
> LFN. I see you painting Jurgen out to be perfect while ignoring his negative
> aspets or making excuses for them. I also see you over and over again try to
> bring up sometimes valid and sometimes really absurd points to rake Michael
> across the coals with. I have never heard an ounce of critism from you about
> Jurgen and even those that like him admit that he had faults. I think you
> choose to see the better part of Jurgen's character and see the negative
> aspects of Michaels. I do often see the good in Michael but I often explain
> that I like the ruthless side of him and that I in no way see him as an
> angel.
>
> >
Lets see Jurgen's faults. He didn't shave. He seemed kinda elusive, maybe
aloof. He seemed rather above the whole thing like he was NOT going to
succumb to the Section. He did resort to blackmailing the Section and not
being a team player but yet by the end of the season we saw why now didn't
we. I suspected back in January that his reasons would be something similiar
to what we saw.
Hum...perhaps he was selfish for having material possessions. Yes, he was.
But since Section would not allow for emotional ones maybe just maybe he used
that to fill the void. Seems like our whole economy is based on that very
premise so is that a negative or not? Its ingrained in our essence...as
Westerners. Unless we chose to be different.
He had a melt down when caught. I don't see this as a bad thing. He saw he
was fallible afterall. He emoted. Gosh...last I heard that wasn't a bad
thing. I think that is what Nikita actually liked about him. And perhaps he
seemed weak at that moment but I dare say he would not have crumbled as a
whole because his type of personality would strive to find a bigger, better
and more foolproof way to screw Section. Even if it was just in his mind...
IMHO.
So, while I can see Jurgen had faults, he was a mere mortal, I can't see the
overwhelming numbers that you or others do. And like I see Michael as
sometimes having good qualities I see his bad ones outnumbering the good
thusfar. But people change and perhaps he will too.
In the meantime though, VA could you please limit your responses to my words
and not to me. There is no need to call someone absurd, hypocritical, silly,
or imply that I am being dishonest with myself. I'm not. Certainly not over
something like a tv character. Please in the future can you refrain from
using this type of terminology or I will stop reading your posts. I see no
need to insult in order to make your point. I enjoy debating with you too but
its not fun to have your opinion about a tv character turned into a subtle
personal attack. To me its the same as some of the rather blatantent ones
I've seen only slicker.
Sorry if I've misinterpreted you...
Denise
> > But with Michael there are always questions that lead back to his intentions
> in
> > my book. Questions that to this day are unresolved for me.
>
> I think the writers want you to quesiton Michael's intent at times, it is
> part of the suspense. In Escape I was on the edge of my seat wondering if it
> was allr real or he was just trying to get her to stick around so she
> wouldn't be cancelled. I like to think he started out to manipulate her but
> some real feelings came through and surprised even him. But while you say you
> have unresolved qustions about Michael's intent you seem to have none about
> Jurgens. A character that wasn't around for long and we really didn't get
> alot of history on. There are gaping holes in some of the things he said and
> did and himself was obsessed with the game "go" where he said that..every
> move is a cover for something else. I wondered what Jurgen was covering for.
> You seem to accept everything he said as truth right away, even after he lied
> to Nikita. So it still seems to me that you are giving him much more benefit
> of the doubt.
>
> >
> > And I can tell you right now that Bruce Payne ala Jurgen ain't gettin no free
> > passes from me because I like HIM, no if he lied, cheated, manipulated for
> his
> > gain, and hurt the woman he loved then I'd have serious problems with him too.
> > Just as I would if the two characters were played in reverse.
>
> But he did lie and manipulate Nikita for his gain. He told her that Michael
> coudln't love and never loved Simone. He obviously had an axe to grind
> against Michael and was smart enough to know which buttons to push to bring
> Nikita closer to him. I haven't seen Michael manipulate her for his gain yet.
> But again that is where we disagree on intentions here.
>
> >
> >
> > Hence my immediate and deep understanding and appreciation of Jurgen. Anyone
> > who would risk their lives covering for a woman he just met and a man with
> whom
> > he has a turbulent history is a good person in my book. And I'm not so sure he
> > did it FOR them as he did to do it AGAINST the Section.
> >
> > And being the rebel I am that is a man after my own heart...
>
> So you identify with his character, that is obvious. And I mean none of this
> as a personal attack against you except since you have sited your personal
> reason for speaking about characters a certain way I have included my opinion
> about them. But I think if you were to take an honest look at yourself I
> think you would see that you do give Jurgen way more benefit of the doubt
> than you do Michael. Your posts seem reall biased to me but that is just my
> personal opinion and I don't make myself out to be perfect either.
>
> I sincerely hope they have another character on the show that you like even
> half as much. For the life of me I will never understand your attraction to
> him but it is nice to really have a character on the show that you enjoy so
> much. You seem to put alot of energy into this guest character that has long
> been killed off and I can't help but feel it is all a moot point. But you are
> certainly entitled to your opinion and the debates are fun. But since you
> posted about your personal intentions I just had to mention that it's not
> coming across that way, at least to me anyway.
>
> va
> >
> > JMHO
> > Denise
rubye...@my-dejanews.com
va_l...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm sorry I just don't give much credit to Jurgen's views on how the mission
> should have been handled. Obviously Michael had much more experience than him
> because he was in charge. I am sure its not the first time a subordinate has
> questioned the "boss's" or "team leader's" orders. Now I don't think Michael
> would have been all broken up had jurgen died but I do think that Michael
> made the right call. Jurgen's opinion of how it should have been done holds
> little weight as he obviously had less experience than Michael. When Jurgen
> tried to give him "lip" and Michael said "Conversations over..move in" I
> nearly fell off the cough laughing!
But Michael *isn't* more experienced than Jurgen, from what I understand.
Wasn't Jurgen Michael's teacher when he came to Section? I seem to recall him
saying that in the 3rd episode of the arc.
--
Ruby
~~starting a landslide in my ego~~
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
rubye...@my-dejanews.com
"Suzita" <SU...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> Whoa. Did I give you the impression that I thought she was showing love or
> that it was acceptable to act as she did. No...not at all.
LOL! I wasn't replying to your post, I don't think, but Rita's. Or whoever it
was that said they didn't "buy" Nikita as being a starry-eyed lover. My
comment was that I could believe she'd act that way simply because I didn't
see her as being emotionally mature.
> she wore blinders refusing to see the harm that could come to them. She
> became petulant after the "get over it" statement
First time I watched this episode and Michael said that, I threw a bedroom
slipper at the television. Last weekend when he said it, I just sat there and
giggled <g>
rubye...@my-dejanews.com
dentav...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I'm sorry. I don't think threatening a man with 'the rest of your life'
> being spent in pain and suffering in exchange for information is reaching.
> The guy had been injured, pumped with addictive pain killers and then removed
> from them. Michael did not come to visit Kudrin in order to relieve his
> suffering and help him die with dignity. No Michael only cared and came to
> visit Kudrin because he NEEDED something from him.
Why would/should Michael care about him? Kudrin was the ENEMY, wasn't he? A
member of the Freedom League? I wonder just how many of Section's operatives
have been tortured/killed over the years thanks to Freedom League. Besides,
from what I gathered, weren't they (Section) only keeping him alive long
enough to suit their purposes? I guess I just don't understand why you think
Michael should have helped him die with dignity...
> Yes, Kudrin was a terrorist and a bad guy but he was still a human being
> suffering and Michael only was concerned to make sure he stayed that way if
> he didn't help him.
I don't blame him, myself. Then again, as you remarked, it all comes down to
personal preferences and sensibilities. I have no problem whatsoever with bad
dudes suffering. Michael suddenly showing compassion for the enemy would have
had me shaking my head in confusion. Why would this character we've seen for
2 seasons suddenly reverse course and care about the enemy? Michael does show
some compassion though. Remember the episode where Nikita and Madeline go to
rescue Michael in Russia? Michael offers Angie escape to the U.S., and at her
death is visibly upset (one of the few glimpses we've ever gotten of him
showing such an emotion). I dunno. I just don't see why on earth he should
show compassion to any Freedom Leaguer. Yeah, it seems the Christian thing to
do, but we're talking about Section here, not Sunday Mass...
> He had a melt down when caught. I don't see this as a bad thing. He saw he
> was fallible afterall. He emoted. Gosh...last I heard that wasn't a
bad
> thing. I think that is what Nikita actually liked about him. And
perhaps he
> seemed weak at that moment but I dare say he would not have crumbled as a
> whole because his type of personality would strive to find a bigger, better
> and more foolproof way to screw Section. Even if it was just in his mind...
> IMHO.
But it's all supposition, isn't it? He was in 3 episodes for a total screen
time of, what, 35 minutes perhaps? Not nearly enough time to find out
anything about Jurgen except that he wanted to live "free" in Section. None
of us know his story. I agree that periodically I want to beat up Michael in
the worst way <g>. He's such a cad at times! But Michael is a character we
discover more about as the seasons progress. But Jurgen was not a developed
character. For me, anything I'd think about him would be pure fantasy on my
part because we don't ever learn anything, really, about him. Who knows what
kind of person Jurgen might have turned out to be had his character been
around for, say, at least a season. He could have been much worse than
Michael, or better, or the same. I do think it interesting that the
discussion seems as heated now as it was when the season first aired, though!
LOL. I didn't discover this NG til about 2 or 3 months (I think) after the
arc aired, and it was being spiritedly discussed then, too. Good, bad, or
ugly, the Jurgen character has certainly stirred people.
Ruby
~~starting a landslide in my ego~~
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> But Michael *isn't* more experienced than Jurgen, from what I understand.
> Wasn't Jurgen Michael's teacher when he came to Section? I seem to recall him
> saying that in the 3rd episode of the arc.
>
> --
> Ruby
I think that while jurgen trained Michael, he must have showed incredible
talent in the field, perhaps surpassing his trainer. He was left in charge of
the mission in my opinion because he has shown running missions to be a
strong point. Jurgen probably showed more promise as a psyc. op and that is
why they chose that as his speciality. Just my opinion, certainly never said
as fact. If Jurgen was any better than Michael at it, I think it would have
been him out running missions instead of the other way around. I think it
bugged him that his former student was his superior out in the field and it
caused a major ego clash.
va
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
>
> In the meantime though, VA could you please limit your responses to my words
silly, > or imply that I am being dishonest with myself.
Denise that is exactly what I was doing, responding to your words and your
examples of reason why Michael is less than honorable. If it did not come
across that way then I take full responsibliity and apologize. But at the
risk of dragging everyone into a personal "tiff" between us I suggest if you
want to further this conversation you contact me by email.
> Sorry if I've misinterpreted you...
>
> Denise
Apology accepted Denise it is easy to misinterpet things when there are major
disagreements about a character.
Again, while I prefer not to venture into email conversations with people I am
not close to or friends with, if you feel you must continue this any further
please contact my by email. Thanks
va
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Ah, va, Michaelite that I am, I have to disagree with you and agree with the
> other poster. I honestly think Michael just wanted to provoke a convenient
and
> more quicker way to get rid of Jurgen. Unfortunately, it backfired.
>
> G
If Michael wanted Jurgen dead why did he then stop him from running into the
building right before it exploded? No one was around, Jurgen's Com was down
he could have easily let him go, claimed he didn't see him heading in that
direction and that would have been the end of it. Nikita was "seeing" Jurgen
at the time so he still had reason to be jealous, Jurgen still had damaging
info on the both of them so he still could have used it for blackmail. Why
try to kill him at one point yet delibertly save his life in another?
va
>
> " Michael is the moon to Nikita's tide." gvd
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
dentav...@my-dejanews.com
va_l...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> >
> > In the meantime though, VA could you please limit your responses to my words
> silly, > or imply that I am being dishonest with myself.
>
> examples of reason why Michael is less than honorable. If it did not come
> across that way then I take full responsibliity and apologize. But at the
> risk of dragging everyone into a personal "tiff" between us I suggest if you
> want to further this conversation you contact me by email.
>
> >
> > Denise
>
> disagreements about a character.
>
> Again, while I prefer not to venture into email conversations with people I am
> not close to or friends with, if you feel you must continue this any further
> please contact my by email. Thanks
>
> va
>
Nope...no need to do that. I think its fine to to offer constructive
criitcism of one's views. Actually as an amatuer editorial writer who's been
published in many national publications (USA Today, Parents, Newsweek,etc.)
I am quite adept at taking criticism over my views. Hence the ability to
discern a flame from one that is not. And defending an opinion I feel is
valid.
But having a conversation or a civil debate does not mean using negative
adjectives to describe the writer IMHO.
This was not to incite a discussion, flame, or to make you or anyone else
feel bad. Its just to request that you give me the same as I TRY to give
you. Even if I felt your arguments were silly I would not say so. Instead I
would try to engage you point by point
And that is where I do enjoy discussing the show with you or anyone else.
Friend or not...
Rita
>want be...
Denise, I'm afraid I have to disagree on this one. I can't tell you
how many poor souls I know who are executives in jobs they hate. They
are leaders and do excellent jobs, they'd just rather be making a
living doing something else but for various reasons, have chosen to
make a success of the job they have.
Stremy1
> My husband is in the military and they all have a "mos"
>which is the particular field they specialize in. Jurgen may have
Yikes, a fellow Army wife. They do seem to turn up everywhere!
Granvia
>From: va_l...@my-dejanews.com
>Date: Fri, Sep 25, 1998 16:23 EDT
>Message-id: <6ugu4g$nhd$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
>
>
>
>>
>> Ah, va, Michaelite that I am, I have to disagree with you and agree with
>the
>> other poster. I honestly think Michael just wanted to provoke a convenient
>and
>> more quicker way to get rid of Jurgen. Unfortunately, it backfired.
>>
>> G
>
>If Michael wanted Jurgen dead why did he then stop him from running into the
>building right before it exploded? No one was around, Jurgen's Com was down
>he could have easily let him go, claimed he didn't see him heading in that
>direction and that would have been the end of it. Nikita was "seeing" Jurgen
>at the time so he still had reason to be jealous, Jurgen still had damaging
>info on the both of them so he still could have used it for blackmail. Why
>try to kill him at one point yet delibertly save his life in another?
>
>va
>>
>> " Michael is the moon to Nikita's tide." gvd
>>
>>
Okay, you know you are asking perhaps an unanswerable question, right? Still,
I will try to answer your question.
At the first attempt, I believe Michael was not as clued as Nikita was into
Jurgen's benevolence and wanted him out of the way pronto. Both to clear him
away from Nikita and to prevent him from snitching on them.
The second time, he was better clued, and decided to spare him.
IF not that, then kept him alive because by then the scheme to infiltrate
Jurgen's computer was on full go and Section needed him alive in order to use
Nikita as bait to get into his house. Otherwise, if he was not alive to refresh
the code to his security, the intel he was blackmailing Section with would have
gone out and cooked the huevos of whomever, most probably Ops, Jurgen was
blackmailing.
G > Does it make sense?
Paige Foster
> >Denise, I'm afraid I have to disagree on this one. I can't tell you
> >how many poor souls I know who are executives in jobs they hate. They
> >are leaders and do excellent jobs, they'd just rather be making a
> >living doing something else but for various reasons, have chosen to
> >make a success of the job they have.
> >Rita
> >
> >
>
> Rita, I guess I should have spoken from personal experience on this. I know I
> could not lead someplace where I hated and didn't believe in. But if others
> are successful at it then they are doing something right.
>
> But that goes against everything I've read from Zig Ziglar, Scott Peck, Tony
> Robbins, the Parachute lady, etc. They've made millions telling people in
> order to be happy and feel content in your job and your life you need or
> perhaps should try to love your life's work. Whatever that may be.
Pop psychology, self help books, and motivational programs are all good things, but
they don't cover all of life's situations. They don't have all the answers - they
don't even ask most of the questions, IMO. I see them as tools, not Truths. Tools
I can use to improve my life, or discard if they don't work. When I see something
that contradicts what one of these self-help books or motivational programs say, I
don't try to make the square peg fit into their round hole, or to pretend that what
I'm seeing is really round.
The world is a complex place. :)
Paige
Online Art Gallery: http://home.earthlink.net/~morrigan/
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
Oh no kidding! My husband was full time army when we met stationed in the
honor guard at Arlington. After we got married he finished out his current
tour and we moved back to his hometown where he got a job as a police
officer. He does like the military though and decided to continue through the
Natl. Guard. Sorry for going off topic but I love to make a "connection" with
another military wife!
va
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
>
> But having a conversation or a civil debate does not mean using negative
> adjectives to describe the writer IMHO.
Actually I thought I was using negative adjectives to describe the arguments
against Michael, not the "writer" but I will try and word things more to your
liking in the future when discussing LFN.
va
Dentav
>Denise, I'm afraid I have to disagree on this one. I can't tell you
>how many poor souls I know who are executives in jobs they hate. They
>are leaders and do excellent jobs, they'd just rather be making a
>living doing something else but for various reasons, have chosen to
>make a success of the job they have.
>Rita
>
>
Rita, I guess I should have spoken from personal experience on this. I know I
could not lead someplace where I hated and didn't believe in. But if others
are successful at it then they are doing something right.
But that goes against everything I've read from Zig Ziglar, Scott Peck, Tony
Robbins, the Parachute lady, etc. They've made millions telling people in
order to be happy and feel content in your job and your life you need or
perhaps should try to love your life's work. Whatever that may be.
So if their are people out there making a success out of their jobs while still
hating them and not letting negative energy get in the way well more power to
them...
I, sad to say, have not been able to do it...
Denise
CATKNSN
>But that goes against everything I've read from Zig Ziglar, Scott Peck, Tony
>Robbins, the Parachute lady, etc. They've made millions telling people in
>order to be happy and feel content in your job and your life you need or
>perhaps should try to love your life's work.
Now Denise, I went to see Zig Ziglar in person. He tells people that they need
to look at the positives in any job they have, that even if you think you hate
your job, you can find something about it you love to focus on. If Zig Ziglar
were working for Section One, he'd be telling the employees they need to focus
on their wonderful fringe benefits and the fact that they do, in fact, save
innocent lives. :-)
Hey, you can spin anything. I'd love to read the Section One Employee
Handbook!
Cathy
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> Okay, you know you are asking perhaps an unanswerable question, right? Still,
> I will try to answer your question.
>
> At the first attempt, I believe Michael was not as clued as Nikita was into
> Jurgen's benevolence and wanted him out of the way pronto. Both to clear him
> away from Nikita and to prevent him from snitching on them.
> The second time, he was better clued, and decided to spare him.
>
> IF not that, then kept him alive because by then the scheme to infiltrate
> Jurgen's computer was on full go and Section needed him alive in order to use
> Nikita as bait to get into his house. Otherwise, if he was not alive to
refresh
> the code to his security, the intel he was blackmailing Section with would
have
> gone out and cooked the huevos of whomever, most probably Ops, Jurgen was
> blackmailing.
>
> G > Does it make sense?
G, it makes as good as sense as any reason I could come up with! Actually I
still don't think Michael wanted Jurgen killed on the mission and to me him
"sparing" Jurgen by stopping him from going into the building reinforced my
own thoughts. But I do realize that none of this is explained and perhaps
part of the numerous inconsistancies of the arc. Your explaination does
sounds possible so I guess it is really up to the viewer to decide. Any else
notice how much LFN does this? I can't decide whether it's good or bad. Good
that each viewer can walk away with his own personal understanding and maybe
explain things to fit what they would like to see, but bad in the fact that
sometimes I just really want to KNOW! Thanks for the response :o)
va
>
> " Michael is the moon to Nikita's tide." gvd
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
va_l...@my-dejanews.com
> Hey, you can spin anything. I'd love to read the Section One Employee
> Handbook!
>
> Cathy
Cathy on good thing about the awful La Femme Nikita exposed book was that I
guess for lack of good information on his own he used Terri Malinskis
excellent Idiot's guide to section one, it reads very much like an employee
handbook and is pretty funny.
va