Aircraft carrier captains
Charlie Pearce
carriers have always (AFAIK) been wearing Naval Aviator insignia.
Is this normal in the USN? I had just assumed that command of the
Navy's premier vessels would be given to officers with experience in
charge of other ships, not somebody who has spent their career
flying...?
Charlie
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PackRat
news:3ebd55a...@news.eidosnet.co.uk:
> One thing I've noticed watching JAG is that the captains of aircraft
> carriers have always (AFAIK) been wearing Naval Aviator insignia.
>
> Is this normal in the USN? I had just assumed that command of the
> Navy's premier vessels would be given to officers with experience in
> charge of other ships, not somebody who has spent their career
> flying...?
>
> Charlie
>
In the case of aircraft carriers they are always commanded by a former
Naval Aviator due to the fact that they must know as much about
aircraft operations as they know about ship handling.
Tom McGarry
of a "deep draft" vessel such as an oiler before being given command of a
carrier. I would assume that successful command of a carrier is a
requirement for an aviators promotion to flag rank.
"Charlie Pearce" <charlie...@eidosnet.NO-SPOO-PLEASE.co.uk> wrote in
message news:3ebd55a...@news.eidosnet.co.uk...
Ray Geneburn
Ray
"Charlie Pearce" <charlie...@eidosnet.NO-SPOO-PLEASE.co.uk> wrote in
message news:3ebd55a...@news.eidosnet.co.uk...
Charlie Pearce
Yes, but I was wondering how much they do know about ship handling -
what kind of conversion do they have to go through first?
TNG1949
naval aviators. The belief is that only an aviator can
have the experience with flying to understand the complexities of
commanding an aircraft carrier with
all of its unique characteristics and be familiar with the needs of the
aviators. Most of the time, as Naval
Aviators become older, and they become unable to remain as first-line
fighter jocks, they will go on the staff
of the carrier, perhaps even as the air boss, (the CAG) or even in other
departments.
Many more of them go on to specialized schooling to become officers on
other types of
ships which will give them the experience needed to possibly command a
carrier.
You must also remember all Naval Aviators have to graduate from Annapolis or
ROTC, which
involves cruises on all types of ships as part of the training.
There are some rather interesting exceptions to this rule.
Prior to World War Two when the carrier was still a new idea, many of the
carrier admirals
and captains did not serve on the old Langley or the early Saratoga or
Lexington, and spent
all their naval years in other surface vessels. Admiral William F. Halsey
earned
his wings in his 60's because he wanted the experience of flying to be able
to command a carrier.
It was relatively easy back then to earn the wings, simply by taking a
flight or two with actual
naval aviators, and I would assume other captains of carriers did the same
simply because the
Navy needed top-notch commanders.
Mike Eggleston (meggl...@stny.rr.com)
"Charlie Pearce" <charlie...@eidosnet.NO-SPOO-PLEASE.co.uk> wrote in
message news:3ebd55a...@news.eidosnet.co.uk...
tokay
wrote:
>Yes, it is true that in the US Navy, carrier captains are generally former
>naval aviators. The belief is that only an aviator can
>have the experience with flying to understand the complexities of
>commanding an aircraft carrier with
>all of its unique characteristics and be familiar with the needs of the
>aviators. Most of the time, as Naval
>Aviators become older, and they become unable to remain as first-line
>fighter jocks, they will go on the staff
>of the carrier, perhaps even as the air boss, (the CAG) or even in other
>departments.
>
>Many more of them go on to specialized schooling to become officers on
>other types of
>ships which will give them the experience needed to possibly command a
>carrier.
>You must also remember all Naval Aviators have to graduate from Annapolis or
>ROTC, which
>involves cruises on all types of ships as part of the training.
Not true. I was a Naval Aviation Cadet (NavCad) as were thousands of
others. (No degree needed to get into the program.) There was also a
program of flying midshipmen who got their commission after completing
flight training. They had some college before entering the program.
And, I have flown with some Chief Petty Officers who were Naval
Aviators. Admittedly a long time ago ( 1950's ) But, these days, I
think what you say is correct.
>
>There are some rather interesting exceptions to this rule.
>Prior to World War Two when the carrier was still a new idea, many of the
>carrier admirals
>and captains did not serve on the old Langley or the early Saratoga or
>Lexington, and spent
>all their naval years in other surface vessels. Admiral William F. Halsey
>earned
>his wings in his 60's because he wanted the experience of flying to be able
>to command a carrier.
>It was relatively easy back then to earn the wings, simply by taking a
>flight or two with actual
>naval aviators, and I would assume other captains of carriers did the same
>simply because the
>Navy needed top-notch commanders.
>
>Mike Eggleston (meggl...@stny.rr.com)
>
>
>"Charlie Pearce" <charlie...@eidosnet.NO-SPOO-PLEASE.co.uk> wrote in
>message news:3ebd55a...@news.eidosnet.co.uk...
>> One thing I've noticed watching JAG is that the captains of aircraft
>> carriers have always (AFAIK) been wearing Naval Aviator insignia.
>>
>> Is this normal in the USN? I had just assumed that command of the
>> Navy's premier vessels would be given to officers with experience in
>> charge of other ships, not somebody who has spent their career
>> flying...?
Actually, in two or three episodes, the skipper was wearing the
surface ship emblem which is a goof on the advisor's part.
tokay
Joe Davila
named Henry Wildfang. At one time Wildfang held the rank of major, resigned
and was, I believe the last (or one of the last) enlisted Marine pilots. He
later was promoted to CWO4. Wildfand retired in 1978. He was followed by
USCG ADCM John P. Greathouse, in 1979. The last enlisted military pilot was
ACCM(NAP) Robert K. "NAP" Jones (NAP stood for "Naval Aviation Pilot").
Then again, Harm's little brother is was a sergeant flying helicopters.
I have flown with a CWO a couple of times, but never an enlisted pilot. I
understand that there were a lot of army enlisted pilots during WWII.
--Note: I remembered reading about Wildfang in an issue of "All Hands" back
when I was a young pup. When I was looking him up, I found these other
guys.
Robert
"PackRat" <Pack...@direcway-sucks.com> wrote in message
news:Xns937845207FB88P...@140.99.99.130...
Ya know, there could be more to this than there seems; hopefully
some brown-shoe will fill us in. (nobody tells us bubbleheads anything.)
Anyway, what the heck about Rickover and the nuke requirements? Seems like
there would be some odd career paths here, or the requirements have changed
or always been different for carriers. (On subs, skippers must come through
the engineer path. Rickover was picky about who drove "his" submarines.) So,
how does this work, I wonder....?
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PackRat
news:7876a3a595b6b396ef8dc130b9f9f32b@TeraNews:
there are alot of Army enlisted pilots today.
PackRat
news:r11ubv4rif36ev8eu...@4ax.com:
> On Sun, 11 May 2003 09:46:24 GMT,
> charlie...@eidosnet.NO-SPOO-PLEASE.co.uk (Charlie Pearce) wrote:
>
>>One thing I've noticed watching JAG is that the captains of aircraft
>>carriers have always (AFAIK) been wearing Naval Aviator insignia.
>>
>>Is this normal in the USN? I had just assumed that command of the
>>Navy's premier vessels would be given to officers with experience in
>>charge of other ships, not somebody who has spent their career
>>flying...?
>>
>>Charlie
>
> The USS Constellation has just been in here on R&R returning from
> Iraq. I went on board for the PR tour while it was in port and got
> talking to the lads up on the flight deck there to answer questions.
> The overall impression I got is that the airwing part of the
> compliment is completely separate (as much as it can be on board) to
> the ship/naval part of operations. There is a crew of men who are
> responsible for the running of the ship and another completely
> separate crew of men who are responsible for the aircraft side of
> things. The two do not mix their responsibilities. The commander of
> the on-board airwing is not the captain of the ship. I would take
that
> to mean that the captain of the ship is primarily concerned with the
> wellbeing of the ship and not the aircraft on board it. It is
> reasonable to assume then that he would be a person of navy
background
> and experience rather than airforce.
The Airwing Commander (CAG) is not the Ship Captain (Skipper), even
though they may be the same rank. However the CAG answers to the
Skipper. The Skipper does need to be familiar with air operations in
that he will order air missions.
>
> Justifying that is the fact that when in home port I was told the
vast
> majority of the planes leave the carrier and are hangared at land
> based airfields. This allows easier maintenance to be carried out on
> the vessel (and the planes presumably). While this happens, the
> airwing compliment of men travel with the planes and the ship crew
> stay with the ship. The captain stays with the ship. He must
therefore
> be of Navy experience rather than anything to do with the airwing.
>
> DRP
Easier Maintenance is one reason for having the Air Wing leave the
ship while in port, the biggest reason is that the aircraft can not
launch from a docked carrier in time of national emergency (they
require the headwind created when the carrier is in forward motion,
thus launch and recovery of aircraft are conducted with the carrier
steaming into the wind.)
MDinzey
30s, when the "Carrier admirals"- those who were pushing for carrier aviation-
Wanted to be sure that their carriers wouldn't be comanded by the "Battleship"
Navy.
Usually, a Carrier CO has had several major commands during his career. A
squadron, possibly two, has served on various other types of ships in
non-flying assignments, and has advanced degrees from War College in Newport,
Naval Postgrad school, etc. He's probably commanded an airwing as "CAG", and
has probably had comand of an oiler or other supply ship.
In Short, he's a professional officer who's got years of past experience in
both worlds- shiphandling AND aviation.
Matt
White Jacket
> Yes, it is true that in the US Navy, carrier captains are generally former
> naval aviators. The belief is that only an aviator can
> have the experience with flying to understand the complexities of
> commanding an aircraft carrier with
> all of its unique characteristics and be familiar with the needs of the
> aviators.
In 1925, Pres. Coolidge appointed the Morrow Commission to make
recommendations for national aviation policies. One of the things the
commission recommended was that all aircraft carriers, seaplane
tenders and naval air bases be commanded by qualified Naval Aviators
or Naval Aviation Observers (the old version of NFO). Congress
accepted this recommendation in 1926, and it has been the law ever
since.
> There are some rather interesting exceptions to this rule.
> Prior to World War Two when the carrier was still a new idea, many of the
> carrier admirals
> and captains did not serve on the old Langley or the early Saratoga or
> Lexington, and spent
> all their naval years in other surface vessels. Admiral William F. Halsey
> earned
> his wings in his 60's because he wanted the experience of flying to be able
> to command a carrier.
Halsey was not quite that old, 52 actually, but it raises a good
point.
When the Morrow report policy went into effect, it created a problem
for the Navy: The experienced World War I-era fliers were not senior
enough for captains' commands, so where to find qualified COs for the
carriers? So the Chief of the Bureau of Aeronautics, RADM William
Moffett, started "recruiting" some more senior officers to go into
aviation. In 1926 some senior captains took the Naval Aviation
Observer course, including Joseph M. Reeves, who pioneered carrier
tactics in LANGLEY and was later CinC US Fleet, Harry Yarnell, who was
commissioning captain of SARATOGA and was later CinC Asiatic Fleet,
and Frederick Horne, who was Vice-CNO in WW2.
There were also some captains and commanders who took the full course
and qualified as Naval Aviators, despite being 20 or 30 years older
than most of their Pensacola classmates. In the 1927 group was 49
year old CAPT Ernest J. King, future Fleet Admiral and head of the
Navy in WW2. Other aviation latecomers included WW2 leaders Halsey,
Richmond Kelly Turner, John McCain, and Ted Sherman.
> It was relatively easy back then to earn the wings, simply by taking a
> flight or two with actual
> naval aviators, and I would assume other captains of carriers did the same
> simply because the
> Navy needed top-notch commanders.
>
In the 1920s, qualifying for NA wings required 200 hours flight time,
solo take off and landing, and soloing certain maneuvers like loops
and split-S's. King's training was ended after meeting the minimum
requirements, on RADM Moffett's orders, so he could take command of
the seaplane tender WRIGHT. But McCain and Halsey, IIRC, had more
advanced training.
While carrier COs had to be aviation qualified, the admirals over them
did not. Early in WW2 carrier task forces were regularly commanded by
black shoe flag officers, including Frank Jack Fletcher and Raymond
Spruance. The Navy's aviation officers felt that such commanders
didn't have enough grasp of the "big picture" of carrier operations
(though Spruance was victorious at Midway, the most crucial decisions
were made on the advice of his brown shoe Chief of Staff, CAPT
Browning). The last black shoe to command a carrier force in WW2 was
Thomas Kinkaid at the Battle of Santa Cruz, where the original HORNET
was sunk. After that carrier task groups or task forces would only be
commanded by aviators. This was Navy policy for many years, but for
the last 10 or 15 years it has been possible for carrier battle groups
to be commanded by a black shoe Cruiser-Destroyer Group commander.
regards,
Jack
Tom McGarry
Officers who are commissioned officers.
"PackRat" <Pack...@direcway-sucks.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93794EB6791ADP...@140.99.99.130...
Joe Davila
> some brown-shoe will fill us in. (nobody tells us bubbleheads anything.)
The only thing they ever told us was "Commence Field Day!"
Joe
USN (RET)
MDinzey
>launch from a docked carrier in time of national emergency (they
>require the headwind created when the carrier is in forward motion,
>thus launch and recovery of aircraft are conducted with the carrier
>steaming into the wind.)
IIRC, The SAratoga launched most of its airwing while at anchor in the Med,
after suffering an engineering casualty. The airwing was split between two or
three different airfeilds.
Matt
Michael Mastro II
"DRP535" <drp...@nospam.softhome.net> wrote in message
news:r11ubv4rif36ev8eu...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 May 2003 09:46:24 GMT,
> charlie...@eidosnet.NO-SPOO-PLEASE.co.uk (Charlie Pearce) wrote:
>
> >carriers have always (AFAIK) been wearing Naval Aviator insignia.
> >
> >Is this normal in the USN? I had just assumed that command of the
> >Navy's premier vessels would be given to officers with experience in
> >charge of other ships, not somebody who has spent their career
> >flying...?
> >
> >Charlie
>
> went on board for the PR tour while it was in port and got talking to the
> lads up on the flight deck there to answer questions. The overall
> impression I got is that the airwing part of the compliment is completely
> separate (as much as it can be on board) to the ship/naval part of
> operations. There is a crew of men who are responsible for the running of
> the ship and another completely separate crew of men who are responsible
> for the aircraft side of things. The two do not mix their
responsibilities.
> The commander of the on-board airwing is not the captain of the ship. I
> would take that to mean that the captain of the ship is primarily
concerned
> with the wellbeing of the ship and not the aircraft on board it. It is
> reasonable to assume then that he would be a person of navy background and
> experience rather than airforce.
>
> majority of the planes leave the carrier and are hangared at land based
> airfields. This allows easier maintenance to be carried out on the vessel
> (and the planes presumably). While this happens, the airwing compliment of
> men travel with the planes and the ship crew stay with the ship. The
> captain stays with the ship. He must therefore be of Navy experience
rather
> than anything to do with the airwing.
>
> DRP
Right and wrong. The airwing does disembark the ship after cruise. We
hardly ever associate with the ship's company people. (They steal our stuff
after they smoke bomb our berthings during GQ) The CO of a carrier has to
care for the well being of his carrier. But a carrier CO has been and
always will be a naval aviator or naval flight officer. One of our former
skippers of VF 101, the tomcat training squadron, was a former tomcat CO.
He has gone onto command a amphibious ship that is aviation capable. From
there he will probably get a carrier, if he is luck. One of my former
skippers in VF 103 went onto pentagon duty and has since become DCAG for one
of the airwings. In which case they are both the same rank (Capt) but their
different paths of command has lead to whether they will be a carrier CO or
a CAG. Both with plenty of flight time and experience with aircraft.
--
Michael
----------------------------------------------------------
http://home.att.net/~mikerm2
Who is proud to be a service member for the United States.
Robert
"Michael Mastro II" <MikeRM2XX...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> We
> hardly ever associate with the ship's company people. (They steal our
stuff
> after they smoke bomb our berthings during GQ)
Yeah, well, you wuz dressed like you wanted it. ;) ;) ;)
*runs away*
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