So, Was the Araber Guilty or Not?
Ian J. Ball
After having watched "Three Men & Adina" for the first time last night, I
was struck by how inconclusive it all was. In fact, it was so inconclusive
that my mother came away convinced that the Araber was innocent! I, on the
other had, tend to agree more with Pembleton that the Araber did do it,
but I can't say that with any real certainty.
The scene that convinced me that the Araber was probably guilty was when
the Araber zeroed in on Frank as being a "500" with such energy and
vehimence, despite the fact that Frank and Tim had been interrogating him
for something on the order of 10 hours! That whole scene showed that the
Araber was a deeply angry man capable of committing a crime as hideous as
Adena Watson's murder.
But what do the members of a.tv.HLOTS think? Did the Araber do it, or not?
--
Ian J. Ball | Want my TV episode guides or rec.arts.tv FAQ?
Grad Student, UCLA | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/IJBall.html
IJB...@aol.com | ftp://members.aol.com/IJBall3/FTP/
i...@ucla.edu | "What to do, with time so short?..."
PygmyCom(tm) Global
>But what do the members of a.tv.HLOTS think? Did the Araber do it, or not?
After re-watching the program last night, I'm positive the Araber did
commit the murder. My evidence: His sudden anger at Pembleton for being
in the 500 Club, his confession of love for Adena Watson (which I believe
would have led to a confession of murder, just like Frank said--if they
had had more time), and the way he was watching the TV news coverage of
the crime scene after the interrogation. That, and the fact that anyone
who had *not* committed the murder would have probably confessed by then.
:)
More importantly: Does anyone think FRANK could have solved the murder if
he had been the Primary?
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Andrew Johnston
In article <Pygmy-13079...@p30.hubbard5.t.ic.net>, Py...@ic.net
(PygmyCom(tm) Global) wrote:
> More importantly: Does anyone think FRANK could have solved the murder if
> he had been the Primary?
No, actually, I'd wager it'd still be unsolved--just look at how long it
took Frank to believe the Araber did it. If he was the primary, he
wouldn't even interview him once. It's far more likely Frank would have
coaxed an innocent guy into confessing instead of actually solving it
himself.
Prestorjon
I think the Araber did it. His reactions to the questions. There were a
couple of times when you could see that he was just on the edge and then
he pulled himself back to safety. Also an innocent person should have
been a little more pissed than that about all the questionsa and
harrasment. I must congratulate HLOTS also for making the Araber
sympathetic in parts of it. I actually felt a little sad for the man. If
what he said was true and he loved Adena (and not the sick perverted kind
of sexual love that pedophiles and such feel for their victims) then his
life must have been heartbreaking.
L. R. Peters
IJB...@aol.com (Ian J. Ball) wrote:
>After having watched "Three Men & Adina" for the first time last night, I
>was struck by how inconclusive it all was. In fact, it was so inconclusive
>that my mother came away convinced that the Araber was innocent! I, on the
>other had, tend to agree more with Pembleton that the Araber did do it,
>but I can't say that with any real certainty.
Ask yourself this question, and think before you answer: do the police
ALWAYS manage to arrest the right guy, and never make a mistake and
get the wrong guy? Do the courts ever convict the wrong guy and send
him to prison?
Remember this is television and most of us have been programmed to
think that right, truth, and justice always prevails. By extension the
good cowboys wear white hats, and the bad ones wear black. The
marshall always wins the gun fight.... Yeah, right.
We've been programmed to cheer for Frank, Tim, and the gang.... We
like to think they are always going to be right, and never get it
wrong. In real life mistakes happen.
Les
jpot...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Ian J. Ball (IJB...@aol.com) wrote:
: After having watched "Three Men & Adina" for the first time last night, I
: was struck by how inconclusive it all was. In fact, it was so inconclusive
: that my mother came away convinced that the Araber was innocent! I, on the
: other had, tend to agree more with Pembleton that the Araber did do it,
: but I can't say that with any real certainty.
I agree. I knew that it was going to be inconclusive, going into the
show considering the reactions in later episodes. Most prominate being
the episode where another young girl is found raped and murdered and
Bayliss thinks this person could have killed Adina as well. Implying that
even Bayliss wasn't totally convinced that the Araber was guilty.
But I'm somewhat sure that it was the araber. The reasons: The physical
evidence. Who know that Adina was at the Araber's place because of the
ashes on her dress. It was established that Adina would not have wore the
same outfiet after it got dirty so she HAD to have been at the Araber on
the same day she was killed. The inconsitencies in the Araber's testimony
does it for me. He lied about Adina not being at his house. While one
could say he just doesn't want to say she was there because then
they would htink he was guilty. But after that long of a interrogation
I think if he was innocent he would have finally agreed to lying about
Adina not being there on the day of her death. I think that's the main
evidence that tells me the Araber did it. Although his attitude towards
Pemblton after a while helps as well. But like i said, i'm not 100%
certain and I think that evidence is a little weak. But it's hard to
overlook the above evidence. I'm not postivie but I think he was the
killer. Tough call though.
--
### ./\. ### JASON POTAPOFF. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
### _|\| |/|_ ### Email: jpot...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
### \ / ###
### >______< ###
### / ### Cyberpun: n. Virtually the worst play on words.
jpot...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Andrew Johnston (a.joh...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: (PygmyCom(tm) Global) wrote:
: > More importantly: Does anyone think FRANK could have solved the murder if
: > he had been the Primary?
: In article <Pygmy-13079...@p30.hubbard5.t.ic.net>, Py...@ic.net
wrote:
: No, actually, I'd wager it'd still be unsolved--just look at how long it
: took Frank to believe the Araber did it. If he was the primary, he
: wouldn't even interview him once. It's far more likely Frank would have
: coaxed an innocent guy into confessing instead of actually solving it
: himself.
Hard to say. I think that the case wasn't handled that well from the
start. Bayliss made some mistakes (understandable because it was his
first primary). SOme things were missed, they didn't go in the right
direction fast enough etc.. Bayliss wasn't deceisive enough, it took too
long for him to take control of the case and make it his own instead of
backing down and letting everyone else push and pull the case. Frank
would not have let that happen, and he probally wouldn't have made the
same "rookie" mistakes that Bayliss did.
On the other hand made a good point. Seeing how the Araber appears to
have done it, and Frank was so set against him being a suspect, there is
the possibility that Frank would never have ended up persuing him.
Although maybe not. Maybe part of the reason why Frank took so long to
think it was the Araber ws beacuse he didn't think that Bayliss, this
rookie, would be right over him. So if Frank didn't have that bit of
pride to get in the way, he might have still gone to the araber. It was
the physical evidence of the ashes on Adina's dress that finally
convinced Frank that it was the Araber. It's hard to say if he would have
came to the same conclusion if he was the primary. He certainly wouldn't
have pursured the Araber at all until the lab work came in on the ashes.
Now whether or not that connection would have been made if Frank was the
primary (ie. would they have thought to check the ahses to the Araber's
house) is the big question there. BUt I think that Frank would have came
to the same conclusion. It would have taken some time, but I think he
would have eventually gone to the Araber if that bit of lab work was
done.
Now whether or not the case would have been solved if Frank ran it from
the start... Frank wouldn't have made the same mistakes that Bayliss did,
but did those mistakes end up hurting the case? I think they still would
have been dealt the same cards reguardless of the primary detective. It
was a very difficult case, one where the evidence just didn't "fall
right". Frank might have been able to ring out a confession or something
more usable from the Araber if he handled the interrogation himself from
the start. But there we are going back to the thread of whther or not
Frank would have considered the Araber a suspet or not.. Certainly if Frank
dind't think the Araber did it he wouldn't have put much pressure on him
in the box.
On the other hand this begs the question would Frank been
able to crack the Araber in the box if he handled the 3rd interrogation?
I could argue yes, because it was Frank who was starting to break down
the Araber near the end of it. If he was able to start in sooner he might
have cracked him before time ran out. But would the interrogation have
been more successfull if Frank wasn't in there? For the bulk of the time
Frank and Bayliss were stumbling over each other. How muhc did one hurt
the other's work in the box? They seemed to cancel each other out fir the
most part. Would they have been more successfull if one or the other did
most of the work and the other just sat there quiet? Did Bayliss have a
chance at breaking the Araber, but it was ruined by Frank butting in?
Possible, I think Bayliss would have been more effective but Frank was
hurting Bayliss's work in the box. Although I could just as easlily argue
that Bayliss was not getting anywhere and it just wouldn't have worked.
Frank did seem to be the one who managed to make the most headway. But
it's though to decide if one or the other did more harm than good. And if
just one of them concentrated on the box thing would have worked out better.
Peter Ryan
>
> I think the Araber did it.....
For myself the question is - if *I* was on his jury in a state where
the death penalty is used and if the state was asking for the death
penalty upon conviction....how would *I* vote.
Not guilty.
~P
James Lloyd Hill
Sean Smith (smt...@bcvms.bc.edu) writes:
> <Devil's Advocate mode>
> </Devil's Advocate mode>
Breaks my heart to see HTML replacing TeX as the ASCII modifiers of
choice. Bring back:
\begin{Devils_Advocate}
\end{Devils_Advocate}
Jim
--
j-h...@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu http://www.swcp.com/~jimhill/
"If I can't have you, I don't want nobody, baby."
Steve Lehmann
I'm having a little trouble with this line of reasoning. If the
Rape/Murder of a child and the placing of a metal pipe in her vagina
after death isn't the epitome of perversion, than what is?
Dave Locke
On Jul 14, 1996 14:32:49 in article <Re: So, Was the Araber Guilty or
Not?>, 'l...@westol.com (L. R. Peters)' wrote:
>Remember this is television and most of us have been programmed to
>think that right, truth, and justice always prevails. By extension the
>good cowboys wear white hats, and the bad ones wear black. The
>marshall always wins the gun fight.... Yeah, right.
horse, I'm switching to another station.
Dave
Unknown
In article <IJBall-1307961536120001@mac_rbk_3.chem.ucla.edu>, IJB...@aol.com says...
>
>After having watched "Three Men & Adina" for the first time last night, I
>was struck by how inconclusive it all was. In fact, it was so inconclusive
>that my mother came away convinced that the Araber was innocent! I, on the
>other had, tend to agree more with Pembleton that the Araber did do it,
>but I can't say that with any real certainty.
This is the beauty of "H:LOTS." It is a show built around *perception*, as
manifested by the use of jump-cuts, scenes repeated from different angles,
etc. By placing us in "the box," exposing us to the tension, the stress,
the atmospheric changes that occured during the long interrogation, at the
end we cannot necessarily be sure ourselves what did or didn't happen. We
have to rely, as Pembelton, Bayliss et al do, on our perceptions.
>
>The scene that convinced me that the Araber was probably guilty was when
>the Araber zeroed in on Frank as being a "500" with such energy and
>vehimence, despite the fact that Frank and Tim had been interrogating him
>for something on the order of 10 hours! That whole scene showed that the
>Araber was a deeply angry man capable of committing a crime as hideous as
>Adena Watson's murder.
>
<Devil's Advocate mode>
Yes, true enough, he _was_ a deeply angry man, who had experienced great
disappointments and (from his point of view) betrayals. But deep anger
does not necessarily translate into murderous violence against someone
else; sometimes, it is sublimated and turned against one's self. That's
what I think happened with the Araber, to the point where he had little
or no rapport to other people other than through peddling his wares.
Didn't it startle you a little when he suddenly launched into his
hawker's cry ("Strawberries!"). He seemed a completely different
person.
</Devil's Advocate mode>
A terrific episode, and I'm glad I finally had the chance to see it.
Sean Smith
smt...@bcvms.bc.edu
/////////////\\\\\\\\\\\
{~"Music is the brandy of the damned." --G.B. Shaw~}
humphreys brad
In article <4seaaf$6...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
James Lloyd Hill <j-h...@ehsn24.cen.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Sean Smith (smt...@bcvms.bc.edu) writes:
>
>> <Devil's Advocate mode>
>> </Devil's Advocate mode>
>
>Breaks my heart to see HTML replacing TeX as the ASCII modifiers of
>choice. Bring back:
>
>\begin{Devils_Advocate}
>\end{Devils_Advocate}
Unless you're going to use this a lot, in which case, I'd prefer
\newcommand{\bda}{\begin{Devils_Advocate}}
\newcommand{\eda}{\end{Devils_Advocate}}
\bda Actually, I think this is a sign of the ``Dumbing-Down'' of the
internet. \eda
Brad "I love LaTex" Humphreys
--
Brad Humphreys <hump...@umbc.edu>
UMBC - Department of Economics
Baltimore, MD
Derrick Hopkins
I'd have to say, not guilty. Both detectives did an incredible
job of interrogating, but the araber never wavered. His
'confession' at the end proved to me that he could'nt have
killed Adina. He loved her. Maybe if she had died from being
hit hard or thrown against a wall, I'd be able to say that
maybe the araber lost control and killed her. But she was killed
brutally, excessivly. Only a person who hated her could do that
to her. The araber felt guilty and ashamed that her loved this
young girl, so much so that he could never hurt her.
The araber's anger at Frank for being a 500 shows that he was
never close the confessing. That Frank never had him fooled. He
knew that Pembelton was trying to get close to him and he knew
that Pembelton thought he was dumb enough to fall for it. The
500 speech just knocked the wind out of Franks sails, and you
can see it in his face when it happens...whhhooosshhh.
D
dhop...@infi.net [ --- Quote of the year --- ]
Amiga 1200/030'50 ['So, does that make you feel tough?' ]
beware of @aol.com ['Lady, I -am- tough.'-Jack Deth/Trancers4]
Cathlene Brady
Dave Locke (slow...@usa.pipeline.com) wrote:
: On Jul 14, 1996 14:32:49 in article <Re: So, Was the Araber Guilty or
Well if they manage to get that scene in next year we'll KNOW the writers
are monitoring this group!
CB
Prestorjon
<<I'm having a little trouble with this line of reasoning. If the
Rape/Murder of a child and the placing of a metal pipe in her vagina
after death isn't the epitome of perversion, than what is?>>
Well yes that would seem to indicate that he was a sick guy wouldn't it.
Monty D. Martin
cbr...@csc.umd.edu (Cathlene Brady) wrote:
>Dave Locke (slow...@usa.pipeline.com) wrote:
>:'l...@westol.com (L. R. Peters)' wrote:
>: >Remember this is television and most of us have been programmed to
>: >think that right, truth, and justice always prevails. By extension the
>: >good cowboys wear white hats, and the bad ones wear black. The
>: >marshall always wins the gun fight.... Yeah, right.
>: If I ever see an episode of H:LotS which ends with the cowboy kissing his
>: horse, I'm switching to another station.
>Well if they manage to get that scene in next year we'll KNOW the writers
>are monitoring this group!
That will only happen if John Ford comes back from the dead and directs an
episode, but then it will probably be shot in Monument Valley, too.
Monty
-------------------------
"You got any toilet paper over there? You got five ones
for a five?" Steve Crosetti - Homicide: Life on the Street
Joan Shields
>> I think the Araber did it.....
Peter Ryan <pcr...@gvmhs.com> wrote:
>For myself the question is - if *I* was on his jury in a state where
>the death penalty is used and if the state was asking for the death
>penalty upon conviction....how would *I* vote.
>Not guilty.
Just an aside - as someone who has served on a jury (fairly recently) in a
state where there is a death penalty (though the case I heard was not a
capital case) - there's just two things:
1. When you hear a case as a member of a jury your first decision is
whether or not the defendent is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the
crime they are on trial for.
2. IF and only if the state asks for the death penalty - you later rule on
whether or not the death penalty should be used.
In other words - the araber is either guilty or not guilty (though in the
case I heard we wanted an "Y'all are idiots" choice). Whether the death
penaty is to be asked for or not is not an issue that should be factored
into the equation.
This was my experience in North Carolina.
----
Actually, less of an aside - is there anyone out there who actually knows
anything about police interrogations? Other than what they see on TV or
in the movies? Anyone out there in the profession?
joan
Jonathan Sigall
The Adina Watson case is based on a real case that has never been solved -
- if you haven't read it, take a look at David Simon's book, "Homicide: A
Year on the Killing Streets." It's a real-life account of the Baltimore
homicide department and the basis for the series. Most of the characters
are taken from the book or are a combination of characters from the book
and many of the cases in the first two seasons were taken from the book --
the Watson case and the Lane Staley shooting are two.
So, to answer the question -- it is doubtful that we will ever know who
killed Adina Watson or the real-life victim. But personally, I think the
Araber (and the prime suspect in real life) is guilty.
AJTe...@aol.com
> After having watched "Three Men & Adina" for the first time last night, I
> was struck by how inconclusive it all was. In fact, it was so inconclusive
> that my mother came away convinced that the Araber was innocent! I, on the
> other had, tend to agree more with Pembleton that the Araber did do it,
> but I can't say that with any real certainty.
>
> the Araber zeroed in on Frank as being a "500" with such energy and
> vehimence, despite the fact that Frank and Tim had been interrogating him
> for something on the order of 10 hours! That whole scene showed that the
> Araber was a deeply angry man capable of committing a crime as hideous as
> Adena Watson's murder.
>
> Ian J. Ball | Want my TV episode guides or rec.arts.tv FAQ?
> Grad Student, UCLA | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/IJBall.html
> IJB...@aol.com | ftp://members.aol.com/IJBall3/FTP/
> i...@ucla.edu | "What to do, with time so short?..."
Christine Reilly
First of all, I forgot just how powerful the performances are. Moses Gunn, who played the Araber, died later the year the show aired. I believe it was his last acting gig.
As others have said, the evidence was not very convincing. Even if it was true that Adena's skirt had soot marks consistent with the Araber's barn, the Araber did say she had been there the Sunday before she died. If it was a wool skirt I can imagine she hadn't been able to clean it right away and even though she was a neat person (as was brought out in the interview) some soot could still have remained on her skirt from Sunday. That was the strongest evidence, other than the mother's unease with the Araber.
When the Araber breaks down and cries that he never touched her and admits his embarrassment that he loved her and knew it was pathetic, I believed him.
I suppose he could have done it, but it seems equally plausible he didn't and the evidence just wasn't there. You can't convict somebody because of how you feel about them.
But that's the beauty of the show. Like life, sometimes you never get to find out.
An episode like this shows how 12 hours of intensive interrogation and mind games with no sleep could get a person to wonder what is real or not and cause false confessions. I watched the episode which is less than an hour, and I felt pummeled and exhausted.