OT: Homosexuality on TV [was Re: "Oz" - The Homoerotic TV show...]
Ashley
> >Ashley acr...@nc.rr.com wrote:
> >Okay, I agree with that.
> >
>
> What did you think of Cramer (the gay boxer who cut off his boyfriend's
> head)? I guess he could be seen as an ugly stereotype, but I also thought he
> was an interesting contrast to the endless long-suffering types (Beecher,
> Richie, who was friends with Shirley and got his throat slashed). He was so
> unapologetic and strident, and very funny at times. Him being acquitted for a
> murder he committed, and actually getting the happy ending (most of the Oz
> people don't get parole or come right back the next season) was one of the
> most twisted stories ever on the show.
I missed the begining of Season 4(or much of season 4 at all), so I didn't see
the trail and its outcome. It is interesting that he got a happy ending, but since I
didn't see it, I can't comment.
[re; Queer as Folk: US]
> >Oh ick! I've never gotten into the show because in the episodes I've seen
> >made the token lesbian couple seem so very stereotypical it was disgusting.
> >There are some people who live lives like the characters or QaF but I don't
> >generally have them for my friends or want to watch them on TV.
>
> I haven't seen a ton of the episodes, but the lesbians are actually
> better-written than most of the gay men, even though for the first year seemed
> to be on there mainly to have hot lesbian sex scenes.
not that there is anoything wrong with lesbian sex scenes (at all) but I'd rather
see a little more attention paid to the characters.
> Maybe the acting never stuck out for me because I found so many
> >other problems first.
> >Sadly most gay tv/movies/etc. are pretty bad. I think it maybe at the same
> >ratio of bad/good as straight movies/tv/etc. The problem is there is so much
> >less gay product that even within the standard ratio there are only 1-5
> >excellent gay items each year. And the films I usually love are the ones that
> >come to the Gay and Lesbian Film Festival and the best rarely get release,
> >seen, distributed, out of the film festival circuit. There is a certain type of
> >homosexuality that media sells and as long as the gay community continues
> >to unquestioningly soak up what ever gay images are thrown at them there
> >will never be a push to embrace the fringes where both the closer to life
> >fiction and the cutting edge fiction are.
> >wow that turned into a bit of a soapbox there, sorry.
>
> You have good points. I've seen cases where there are pretty bad gay
> movies and tv shows which are accepted because there is a sense of 'if
> we don't accept them, we are betraying our own struggle', etc.
Definately. I will give a show a bit more of chance if there is a gay
character/writer/producer. It's why I started watching 6FU and probably why
I'm more patient with ER; I probably wouldn't even considered seeing Sweet
Home Alabama otherwise. But all it does it get me to consider a show. The
show's gay producer won't get me to watch CSI:Miami or Everwood (although if
anyone is watching Everwood let me know what you think). Two actors I really
like and a lesbian writer won't convince me to stick with Hack.
>I also think there is far too much lenience given to gay storylines on tv, and
>the actors who play them. I've seen idiotic statements from Kerr Smith about
>how "Creek" was the first to have this and the first to have that (two gay men
> kissing, etc.), and none of that's true, but no one ever bothers to correct him.
>The idea seems to be that if a gay story is on tv, it must be praised and
>supported, or that won't happen again. It's the same or even worse than tv
>shows that have a black character who is there only to be black. Like on
>soaps, you have gay characters who are there to be gay, and when that initial
>story is over, they usually fade away fairly quickly. Yet, even though these
>stories are lauded every time, they are never followed up on. I only started
>liking Tara in season 5, when she became more than just Willow's lesbian
>girlfriend.
I agree completely.
(but I did like Tara almost right away, at least by Family)
But I do think the that shows still deserve a little praise for showing a gay
character,. Considering how few gay lead characters there are on network tv.
The list; Frank Coones - MDs, Willow - Buffy, Jack - Dawson's Creek, Kerry -
ER, Bill Brochtrup - NYPD Blue, Will & Jack - Will & Grace. That's it. Granted
there are more if you include 6FU, The Shield, QaF, Oz. And happily there are
a few more that will show up sooner or later: Earthlings (coming to Showtime
eventually), Charlie Lawerence (starring Nathan Lane, CBS mid-season), Oliver
Beene (Fox, mid-season), and The Wire (if it comes back again).
It is sad that shows still need to be praised for having gay characters, but they
do.
> Then there's QAF, which is full of bad actors and wildly melodramatic, bad
> soap opera stories, and probably does far more harm than good in every
> respect.
QaF is a soap opera. Nothing more, nothing less.
> I was actually shocked when I saw a few episodes of QAF for the
> first time and realized how terrible the leads were, because they are the
> lynchpin of the entire show. Those are crucial parts, and you have them
> played by smarmy no-talents, or someone who goes around saying it's like
> kissing a dog. I guess the casting people know that mainly straight women
> are watching and wanted actors they thought would appeal to straight
> women, ie, men who are or might be seen as straight.
>
> Then there are actors who seem to think that they are doing the world a favor
> by playing gay, especially men. I saw one quote from some nobody who's
> going to be a professor on Dawson's Creek, and he said he only agreed to do
> the show if he didn't have to get naked with another man (apparently he
> doesn't watch network tv very often). Of course if he's straight he might not
> want to get naked with another guy, but he made it sound like he was
> making a huge sacrifice by taking the role at all. I never understand why so
> many shows cast actors in gay roles who have a laundry list of things they
> won't do, or who appear uncomfortable even saying the word. There was a
> recent movie I heard about with two gangsters who were also supposed to
> be lovers, and halfway through the movie, one of the actors said he would
> not do any touching of any kind. The director had to go along, because so
> much had already been shot.
I agree. One of the reasons I really respect Amber Benson, Laura Innes, and
Alyson Hannigan is that they have never been anything but wonderful to their
gay fans. (also Sonja Sonn and Eric McCormack) I understand that it might be
a bit weird fr a striaght actor to be on the cover of a gay magazine but the
respect and love they show for their characters and their fans always shines
through wondefully. (and I'd put Amber Benson at the top of the list - bar none).
>
> I thnk that so many people in film and tv prefer to hire straight/closeted men
> to play gay roles because they think they need someone who will appeal to
> straight female audiences, or they don't want someone who will appear
> stereotypical, or too effeminate for mass public appeal.
Personally I'd like to see more out actors playing gay character. Actually I'd like
to see more out actors period. Not that the actors I listed above don't do a
great job (with the possible expection of Eric McCormack who is limited by his
show). but I gay people playing gay people would be nice every once in a
while.
> And straight actors
> take these roles because they want to get awards or be taken seriously, and
> they are clearly ill at ease throughout the project (the biggest exception I've
> ever seen to this is Eric Roberts in It's My Party - he deserved a lot more
> praise than he got).
It's My Party is a wonderful movie.
> As a result, they cripple themselves because they have
> these completely wooden guys who either have no emotional scenes or
> romantic scenes, or when they do, seem to be in physical terror every time
> they have them. The only exception I've seen to this on tv is "Oz".
I think 6FU also does a good job.
But that's about all I can think of if you are just talking about male characters. I
can think of more female examples but that is probably because lesbian
sexuality is often coded in a very specific way to make in more palatable for tv.
ash
"It always seemed to me a bit pointless to disapprove of homosexuality. It's like
disapproving of rain." - Francis Maude
James
>
>I missed the begining of Season 4(or much of season 4 at all), so I didn't
>see
>the trail and its outcome. It is interesting that he got a happy ending, but
>since I
>didn't see it, I can't comment.
>
Said decided to go back to the people and perform acts of kindness. He
represented Jason Cramer after Jason found out that a juror had seen him as
guilty only because he was gay. Said took on the case in spite of the Muslims
being very irritated by his decision. There was a classic scene where all of
the gays were dancing around Said as the Muslims glared at him from a distance
and Said tried not to cringe.
Said found out that the detective fabricated evidence. He never actually
thought before this that Cramer would be acquitted, and when Rebadow told him
letting that happen would be a mistake (God had told him so), Said resigned. It
was too late to stop the momentum though, and Cramer was found not guilty. I
will never forget seeing Cramer sashay through prison metal detector on his way
out the prison doors, guilt-free in every single way. It was such a shocking
contrast to the usual "you will PAY and PAY and PAY" mindset of Fontana's.
>
>I agree completely.
>(but I did like Tara almost right away, at least by Family)
>But I do think the that shows still deserve a little praise for showing a gay
>
>character,. Considering how few gay lead characters there are on network tv.
Sure they do, but at some point, you have to take it a step further. I think
that introducing a gay character and then having him only on there to be gay
(like Matt on "Melrose Place"), never even giving him a character to play, is a
waste of time, possibly even detrimental.
>
>QaF is a soap opera. Nothing more, nothing less.
That's what it should be, but the PR machines try to build this up as the
groundbreaking show of the ages. I wonder how many people tune in to see this
groundbreaking show and walk away shaking their heads.
>. (also Sonja Sonn
Is she the one on "The Wire"? How many fans does she have?
>
>I think 6FU also does a good job.
>But that's about all I can think of if you are just talking about male
>characters. I
>can think of more female examples but that is probably because lesbian
>sexuality is often coded in a very specific way to make in more palatable for
>tv.
>
Have you ever seen Desert Hearts?
Keith Gow
lyrical:
>>Ashley acr...@nc.rr.com wrote:
>>
>>I agree completely.
>>(but I did like Tara almost right away, at least by Family)
>>But I do think the that shows still deserve a little praise for showing a gay
>>
>>character,. Considering how few gay lead characters there are on network tv.
>
>Sure they do, but at some point, you have to take it a step further. I think
>that introducing a gay character and then having him only on there to be gay
>(like Matt on "Melrose Place"), never even giving him a character to play, is a
>waste of time, possibly even detrimental.
>
This happened recently on an Australian series called "The Secret Life
of Us". The first season had Richie being hit on by a gay friend and
then realising why he wasn't happy in his hetero relationship. Most of
the first year dealt with him discovering his homosexuality, coming
out to his friends and family and girlfriend (and breaking up with
her, obviously), venturing into the gay club scene, having lots of gay
sex, trying to find a long-term gay partnership. It was a good story.
Year two, however, was a completely different story. The writers
didn't know how to use the character at all. It was like now he's out,
what can we possibly do with him? (Uh, I know, give him relationship
dramas like everyone else on the show. Or find another aspect of his
personality to explore.) Alas, he was marked as gay and that was all
he was from then on.
This unfortunately culminated in an episode where he was bashed for
being gay. (Or, more precisely, for exploring his possible
bi-sexuality...) I'm sure this kind of thing continues to happen all
across the world, but to devolve a character into on aspect of his
character (he's gay) and perpetrate on him a hate crime doesn't really
say much for the show overall - and says even less about what the
writers think they can do with a gay character.
"He's gay. What can *possibly* we do with him?"
"Ah, he hasn't been beaten up by rednecks for being gay yet..."
-- Keith Gow --
Kellerman: "Fun is my god, Frank. I worship fun. I live
for fun. When I die, I hope I'm having fun."
- Homicide: Life on the Street
Ashley
> >Ashley acr...@nc.rr.com wrote:
> >I missed the begining of Season 4(or much of season 4 at all), so I didn't
> >see the trail and its outcome. It is interesting that he got a happy ending,
> >but since I didn't see it, I can't comment.
>
> Said decided to go back to the people and perform acts of kindness. He
> represented Jason Cramer after Jason found out that a juror had seen him as
> guilty only because he was gay. Said took on the case in spite of the Muslims
> being very irritated by his decision. There was a classic scene where all of
> the gays were dancing around Said as the Muslims glared at him from a
> distance and Said tried not to cringe.
>
> Said found out that the detective fabricated evidence. He never actually
> thought before this that Cramer would be acquitted, and when Rebadow told
> him letting that happen would be a mistake (God had told him so), Said
> resigned. It was too late to stop the momentum though, and Cramer was
> found not guilty. I will never forget seeing Cramer sashay through prison metal
> detector on his way out the prison doors, guilt-free in every single way. It was
> such a shocking contrast to the usual "you will PAY and PAY and PAY"
> mindset of Fontana's.
Wow. Thanks for the summary. I don't know what to make of that. It certainly
isn't stereotypical.
> >But I do think the that shows still deserve a little praise for showing a gay
> >character,. Considering how few gay lead characters there are on network
> >tv.
>
> Sure they do, but at some point, you have to take it a step further. I think
> that introducing a gay character and then having him only on there to be gay
> (like Matt on "Melrose Place"), never even giving him a character to play, is a
> waste of time, possibly even detrimental.
It is a complicated issue though because if the gay media stops praising the
gay characters that do exist the tv producers will think the gay media doesn't
care about seeing gay characters on straight tv. And Showtime will create the
all gay channel that everyone can point to as the home of gay drama, comedy.
Actually Showtime is already in the process of creating it. The Advocate and all
the other gay magazines tread a fine line.
> >QaF is a soap opera. Nothing more, nothing less.
>
> That's what it should be, but the PR machines try to build this up as the
> groundbreaking show of the ages. I wonder how many people tune in to see
> this groundbreaking show and walk away shaking their heads.
Showtime has Earthlings in the works which is a lesbian drama. I am hoping it
will be a better show because the cast does contain show actors or not. BUt
I'm not to hopeful. And no Earthlings isn't a sci-fi show.
> >. (also Sonja Sonn
>
> Is she the one on "The Wire"? How many fans does she have?
Well she did the magazine press junket. She got written about on
AfterEllen.com and was never anything but grateful and respectful to her gay
fans, so she's got a fan in me at least. And I misspelled her name by accident.
Sonja Sohn. "I think it's important that we have realistic portrayals of people on
television, whether it be lesbians or black detectives or gangsters....because it
helps break stereotypes, hopefully broadening the viewpoints of people who
don't have the opportunity to be exposed to any type of diversity-cultural, racial,
or sexual-in their lives." - The Advocate by way of AftenEllen.com
> >I think 6FU also does a good job.
> >But that's about all I can think of if you are just talking about male
> >characters. I
> >can think of more female examples but that is probably because lesbian
> >sexuality is often coded in a very specific way to make in more palatable for
> >tv.
>
> Have you ever seen Desert Hearts?
Yes. It's a decent movie. This dialogue is clunky in parts. The movie isn't as
good as the book Desert of the Heart (Jane Rule), as is often the case the
book has much more complex characters.
I don't own in so I can't pop it in a rewatch it but I don't remeber it being in the
same league as When Night is Falling or Show Me Love. But I've seen those
more recently so my opinion might be unfairly favoring them.
ash
"What happened to me is exactly the opposite of what closeted people fear:
They think they'll lose everything if they come out. This did not happen to me at
all. In fact, everything came back tenfold." -Melissa Etheridge"
James
>
>Wow. Thanks for the summary. I don't know what to make of that. It certainly
>isn't stereotypical.
>
That was also the season where Beecher whored himself out to various prison
inmates. I don't know if you saw that or not.
>
>Showtime has Earthlings in the works which is a lesbian drama. I am hoping
>it
>will be a better show because the cast does contain show actors or not. BUt
>I'm not to hopeful. And no Earthlings isn't a sci-fi show.
I heard it will have Jennifer Beals, who keeps getting work for no apparent
reason, as one of the stars.
>
>Yes. It's a decent movie. This dialogue is clunky in parts. The movie isn't
>as
>good as the book Desert of the Heart (Jane Rule), as is often the case the
>book has much more complex characters.
>I don't own in so I can't pop it in a rewatch it but I don't remeber it being
>in the
>same league as When Night is Falling or Show Me Love. But I've seen those
>more recently so my opinion might be unfairly favoring them.
>
Have you ever seen Bar Girls? That's one of my favorite cult movies.
Alina Holgate
Just butting in to an appropriate topic thread. A friend of mine
has just returned from Thailand and reports that Thai tv are
showing Six Feet Under with *every* reference (including
dialogue) to homosexuality removed. He reckons the Thai's
must be sitting around wondering "just who the hell is that
black guy and why do him and David have such bizarre
conversations?"
Petey Blue
> I'm not too hopeful. And no, Earthlings isn't a sci-fi show.
Oh my. I predict a number of sci-fi fans will end up being extremely
surprised! (-:
Actually some of the more esoteric sci-fi writers have long ago gone way
beyond any permutation of same-species sex as interesting. They've taken
the position, as many zoologists have, that if two differing species *can*
have offspring they *will* have offspring or at least they will be quite
willing to risk death trying.
Pete
James
You've probably already read this, but here it is anyway:
http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/804/804_deitch_713_4.asp
Ashley
> >Ashley acr...@nc.rr.com wrote:
> >Wow. Thanks for the summary. I don't know what to make of that. It
> >certainly isn't stereotypical.
>
> That was also the season where Beecher whored himself out to various
> prison inmates. I don't know if you saw that or not.
Nope I could probably count the season 4 episodes I've seen on one hand. An
one of them was the episode with Ally Sheedy, I looked at TV Tome and
couldn't remember which other ones I had seen. Hopefully I'll catch the season
on DVD or reruns at some point. Although before now I thought I didn't miss
much in season 4 it is pretty commonly pointed at the the place the show
started the decline.
> >Showtime has Earthlings in the works which is a lesbian drama. I am hoping
> >it will be a better show because the cast does contain show actors or not.
> >BUt I'm not to hopeful. And no Earthlings isn't a sci-fi show.
>
> I heard it will have Jennifer Beals, who keeps getting work for no apparent
> reason, as one of the stars.
Yes she's in it. The other actress that most people will recognize is Pam Grier -
whose character should be really interesting. Other actress include: Mia
Kirshner ("24"), Laurel Holloman ("The Incredibly True Adventures of Two Girls
in Love"), Karina Lombard (little parts in a handful of straight films) Kate
Moennig ("Young Americans"), Leisha Hailey (The Murmers, "All Over You"),
and Erin Daniels. There are somewhat snarky bios of them all up at:
http://www.afterellen.com/TV/earthlings.html - also there you'll find a good
summary of the show and a nice list of concerns about the show (if your
interested).
> >Yes. It's a decent movie. This dialogue is clunky in parts. The movie isn't
> >as good as the book Desert of the Heart (Jane Rule), as is often the case
> >the book has much more complex characters. I don't own in so I can't
> >pop it in a rewatch it but I don't remeber it being in the same league as
> >When Night is Falling or Show Me Love. But I've seen those more
> >recently so my opinion might be unfairly favoring them.
>
> Have you ever seen Bar Girls? That's one of my favorite cult movies.
Yes. I'm surprised to hear anyone call it a favorite. It is usually at the bottom of
the list of lesbian film (or at the top of the bad lesbian film list) reigh beside Claire
of the Moon. I rememberBar Girls as a not horribly well acted or orginal movie.
Although now that I've spent a large amount of time in gay bars I might be more
kind to the movie based on a realistic portrayal of that scene (if it has one). B
What do you like about the movie? I'm tempted to give it a second chance.
ash
"I don't think of them a lesbian supervisors, I think of them as county
supervisors who happen to be lesbians. A lesbian supervisor would have a very
different job: 'Hey you, cut those nails before you hurt somebody!'"
-Marga Gomez
Ashley
<PETEY...@YAH00.C0M> wrote:
> "Ashley" <acr...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
>
> > I'm not too hopeful. And no, Earthlings isn't a sci-fi show.
>
> Oh my. I predict a number of sci-fi fans will end up being extremely
> surprised! (-:
Probably. There are shooting the first few episodes now. It looks like it will have
the fairly standard premise of: new (straight) girl move in next door to a lesbian
couple and befriends them and becomes a part of their world
> Actually some of the more esoteric sci-fi writers have long ago gone way
> beyond any permutation of same-species sex as interesting. They've taken
> the position, as many zoologists have, that if two differing species *can*
> have offspring they *will* have offspring or at least they will be quite
> willing to risk death trying.
I don't as a rule read or watch much sci-fi so I wouldn't know. I certainly don't
watch anything in the Star Trek genre. not that there is anything wrong with
that its just not my cuppa.
ash
"My aim is to have an all-gay sitcom someday, with heterosexuals as
token guest stars. Let them be the next- door neighbors for a change."
-Harvey Fierstein
>
> Pete
>
>
>
Ashley
Thanks. If I had read it, it was a long time ago. The article does touch on one
reason I'm not more fond of the movie. I was in grade school when it came out
(1986). I saw it around the same time I saw the movies it influenced and paved
the way for. And many of those are much better films. I don't hold it up as the
first good gay film I saw or the gay film that influnced me. It wasn't landmark to
me. Don't get me wrong it is a good movie just not one of my favorites.
ash
Ashley
That horrible. And if season one got cut season two is going to get murdered.
I imagine there is plenty of room in the hour for commericals with all the
homosexuality cut.
ash
"If you removed all the of the homosexuals and homosexual influence from
what is generally regarded as American culture, you would be pretty much
left with Let's Make a Deal." - Fran Lebowitz
>
Petey Blue
That's sure going to make Fontana's 'Oz' hard to understand, too.
Pete
"Do you know what happens to boys who play with dolls? They become men who
play with dolls." - Alex of "Family Ties"
James
>
>Nope I could probably count the season 4 episodes I've seen on one hand. An
>one of them was the episode with Ally Sheedy, I looked at TV Tome and
>couldn't remember which other ones I had seen. Hopefully I'll catch the
>season
>on DVD or reruns at some point. Although before now I thought I didn't miss
>much in season 4 it is pretty commonly pointed at the the place the show
>started the decline.
That is questionable. Season 3 was bad. The first half of season 4 was very
good. The second half of season 4 was not, and was rushed, because of HBO
ordering 8 more episodes (this has already been discussed by other people). I
do have to say that I did not find the Jeremiah Cloutier (Luke Perry) story
half as bad as many here did. His scenes with Vern and Said were great stuff.
>
>Yes. I'm surprised to hear anyone call it a favorite. It is usually at the
>bottom of
>the list of lesbian film (or at the top of the bad lesbian film list) reigh
>beside Claire
>of the Moon. I rememberBar Girls as a not horribly well acted or orginal
>movie.
>Although now that I've spent a large amount of time in gay bars I might be
>more
>kind to the movie based on a realistic portrayal of that scene (if it has
>one). B
>What do you like about the movie? I'm tempted to give it a second chance.
Well, I know very little about lesbian culture, so I have no idea of how
realistic that was. I enjoyed the performances (the lead was very good), and
the atmosphere. The jokes were funny. It was a somewhat threadbare film, very
loose, easygoing, very easy to watch. I really liked the masculine Southern
lesbian and her previously-straight prissy girlfriend, even though many may see
those as bad stereotypes. There were no big social statements, and maybe one or
two too many characters, but I just enjoyed the flow and the performances. The
best thing about the movie is the seen-it-all bartender tromped up in various
stupid costumes throughout the film, always with a forlorn look on her face. I
also liked that the lead character had a straight male friend, instead of
another rendition of straight men being too bigoted/clueless to understand.