Swordfighting
Jeffrey T Humbert
: I am curious! How many of you fence? Is anyone seriously involved in
: martial arts? I ask, because it might be interesting to examine the great
: cinematic swordfights. Excluding the obvious and overrated "Princess
: Bride"- What are the best scenes anyone can recall? Cyrano?
: Captain Blood? Yojimbo? Out with it!
: cordially,
I thought the sword fight in Rob Roy was done better than most. I haven't
seen Braveheart, were their any memmorable moments in there?
Bill Weinkle
martial arts? I ask, because it might be interesting to examine the great
cinematic swordfights. Excluding the obvious and overrated "Princess
Bride"- What are the best scenes anyone can recall? Cyrano?
Captain Blood? Yojimbo? Out with it!
cordially,
--
Of all forms of wealth, intelligence must be the most fairly distributed
for no one ever complains of a lack of it
Visit my homepage at http://www.shadow.net/~wweinkle
Moses Fisk
very impressive kenjutsu. As far as film, some of the moves in the "Seven
Samurai" weren't bad. The most impressive I have ever seen is a video a
friend of mine took in Japan quite a few years ago of Sanno, a blind (he
wasn't born that way) monk in a tournament. He was incredible, especially
for being about seventy and blind. If anyone has any info or more film of
Sanno please contact me.
-Moses Fisk (mose...@aol.com)
Lycanthro
and Rochefort. Chris O'Donnel and Michael Wincott. And that was good only
because of Michael Wincott.
Demetrius W. Burlingkopf
Humbert) wrote:
>I thought the sword fight in Rob Roy was done better than most. I haven't
>seen Braveheart, were their any memmorable moments in there?
Memmorable?!? Trust me. See the movie. You won't be disappointed.
As a former theater manager, I've become quite jaded about movies and
very hard to impress. This movie actually moved me. I felt anger,
suspense, tension, and heartache. It doesn't have 10 Academy
Nominations for nothing. And best of all, it's based on a true
Scottish hero. Although the story of William Wallace is sketchy at
best and hard to nail down, they did a good job of recreating what was
known, with some dramatic liscense, of course.
Definately one to add to the video collection, and since it's Oscar
season, you can catch it at the theaters again.
0
0 0 Ladc...@ix.netcom.com
// Demetrius W. Burlingkopf
_ //_________________________________________________
(_)========< _________________________________________________>
\\ Shadow Players
\\ Stage Combat Group
0 0 "Potest esse nur unus"
0
Demetrius W. Burlingkopf
>I am curious! How many of you fence? Is anyone seriously involved in
>martial arts? I ask, because it might be interesting to examine the great
>cinematic swordfights. Excluding the obvious and overrated "Princess
>Bride"- What are the best scenes anyone can recall? Cyrano?
>Captain Blood? Yojimbo? Out with it!
>cordially,
>Billy 2Dogs
Scaramousche (sp?) This movie has some incredible court sword work,
and most of it is authentic moves and not "Hollywood-style" "Errol
Flynn" crap.
BTW, I do swordfight, but I don't fence (in the classical sporting
style).
mcast...@ivory.trentu.ca
You mentioned my favorite fight, but I somewhat disagree, one actor cannot make
the whole scene great, Chris O'Donnel was good simply because he
added a pretty boy/cool/slick kinda of an attitude you'd expect from someone
like him or from a musketeer type character. On the other hand, though I have
to agree that Michael Wincott did play the evil sword dueler/bad guy part
perfectly and your definitly right in saying that he made alot of that sword
fight good as well as the fight between him and Keifer Sutherland, only moments
before. What did you think of the fight at the begining of the movie (O'Donnel
and the other guy who's sister he slept with) ?
Michael
p.S. I think this group is great when we discuss this sort of thing. The word
thing simple responds to sword duels and fights which highlnader is mostly
about anyways.
Also, are there any other duels or sword fights anyone else cares to discuss or
suggest as a good thrill.
Roundball
I fenced NCAA competition for two years untilI blew out an ACL.
It is without the toughest of all the non-contact sports and is
even tougher when you begin to fence with epee and sabre (heavy
pieces requiring some physical contact with opponents.
I do not know who taught the Highlanders, but Christopher and
Adrian are both instructor class swordsmen. You cannot fake or
coreograph good fights. Michael Ironsides was terrible, Sean
Connery is "artistic" and unpredictable, Amanda is awful (so they
do not portray here as being great) and the jury is still out on
Richey.
What do you think?
Apollo
: I do not know who taught the Highlanders, but Christopher and
: coreograph good fights. Michael Ironsides was terrible, Sean
: Connery is "artistic" and unpredictable, Amanda is awful (so they
: do not portray here as being great) and the jury is still out on
: Richey.
:
: What do you think?
FILMS:
Clancy Brown, for someone of that build with a heavy sword is
still impressive. Connery manages have screen presence enough
to "fake" it.
Ironside was dire. He was the second reason for not likeing that
film. In the final scene he doesn't move, he just lets CL do all
the "looking good".
SERIES
The episode where Duncan is having nightmares about a monk who
keeps killing him has some excellent fighting. The bloke who
is the monk is very impressive.
Darn, I've de-lurked twice in one day...
Claire Maier
: SERIES
: The episode where Duncan is having nightmares about a monk who
: keeps killing him has some excellent fighting. The bloke who
: is the monk is very impressive.
Well, the robed figure wasn't a monk, but the person playing him was F.
Braun McAsh, the series' current swordmaster. That's why the fighting
was so impressive.
BaDge
Roundball <mto...@lc.gulfnet.com> wrote:
>YES - SOme of us have experience wiht bladed weapons. In college
>I fenced NCAA competition for two years untilI blew out an ACL.
For the non-medical, that's the Anterior Cruxate Ligament, an
important knee joint component.
>It is without the toughest of all the non-contact sports and is
...eh? typo? maybe you meant without question. OK got it. ;-)
>I do not know who taught the Highlanders, but Christopher and
>Adrian are both instructor class swordsmen. You cannot fake or
I think neither are classical Italian instructor class
swordsmen. Both have major flaws in their technique.
However! AP can wield a mean blade. His fighting, real, or
stagefighting is very, very good, and entertaining.
Lambert looked his best in the first TV episode, 'The Gathering',
and alway looked a bit awkward in any other scenes, including
the movie. The scene where he and DM fight and train in that
first epi, was well done, with few cut-aways, or camera angle
tricks, and looked very credible. My respect for CL's swordplay
abilities went up as a result of viewing that scene. [Note:
borrowing a buddie's HL the series euro-Tape I, allowed me to
see the first epi just last weekend!]
>coreograph good fights. Michael Ironsides was terrible, Sean
>Connery is "artistic" and unpredictable, Amanda is awful (so they
I have to agree with you here. I also thought Joan Jett was
pretty bad, but they covered that up pretty well in her epi.
Connery's scenes were perhaps heavily scripted as to what he
had to do, so I'm not so sure he isn't better at swinging the
ole blade around than they let him in HL I, the movie.
>do not portray here as being great) and the jury is still out on
>Richey.
Oh, you're gonna get flamed on the spelling here, heh, but I
thought Richie's swordplay was still lacking. He's still
swatting the air, even though his scene with the evil DM was
his best so far. Since I hadn't seen any of the 4th season's
episodes until last weekend, I asked my friend, whose house I
was visiting that gets WGN, 'Who's that guy'. She said "it's
Richie, of course". Heh, he looks a lot different to the skinny
kid from season I, so it took some getting used to on my part.
--
regards,
________
BaDge
<ba...@virginia.edu>
Christopher Lau
: YES - SOme of us have experience wiht bladed weapons. In college
: I fenced NCAA competition for two years untilI blew out an ACL.
: even tougher when you begin to fence with epee and sabre (heavy
: I do not know who taught the Highlanders, but Christopher and
: Adrian are both instructor class swordsmen. You cannot fake or
: coreograph good fights. Michael Ironsides was terrible, Sean
: Connery is "artistic" and unpredictable, Amanda is awful (so they
: do not portray here as being great) and the jury is still out on
: Richey.
Christopher Lambert is certainly *not* even close to instructor
level.. in fact, he has no formal martial arts training at all.. He
trained for the movies by practicing the same scenes over and over
until he could do them in his sleep- he had to, because he's as blind
as a bat without his glasses (and he has a condition the precludes the
wearing of contacts). Adrian Paul on the other hand has had previous
martial arts training and has been taking formal sword training in the
last couple of years and is visibly improved from the beginning of the
series (although he keeps slipping back into poor grip and posture at
least once per episode), but I wouldn't consider him instructor level
either.. As for choreographing fights, it would really help if they
at least tried to aim for each other instead of at the swords.. it's
painfully obvious that it's faked and they leave holes in their
defense big enough to drive a truck through.. IF both fighters have
proper training and the sequence is properly considered, a good fight
*can* be choreographed however. Unfortunately, Adrian is usually the
only one with any ability at all; the guest stars most often have
never held a sword in their lives and are usually incredibly inept, so
it's not exactly surprising that the fight scene quality is low.
: What do you think?
--
Christopher Lau | Nortel Wireless Networks / Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Mr. Unix | This article contains my own opinions, not BNR's.
-- | Bring back Trudeau!
cc...@bnr.ca | (613)-763-8392
Claire Maier
: either.. As for choreographing fights, it would really help if they
: at least tried to aim for each other instead of at the swords.. it's
: painfully obvious that it's faked and they leave holes in their
: defense big enough to drive a truck through.. IF both fighters have
: proper training and the sequence is properly considered, a good fight
: *can* be choreographed however. Unfortunately, Adrian is usually the
: only one with any ability at all; the guest stars most often have
: never held a sword in their lives and are usually incredibly inept, so
: it's not exactly surprising that the fight scene quality is low.
I'm curious, Christopher-- how would you evaluate the fights between
Adrian and F. Braun McAsh (Duncan and the Cloak, Shadows) and between
Adrian and Anthony DeLongis (Duncan and Kurlow, Blackmail)? Both McAsh
and DeLongis are as good or better than Adrian in swordwork/stage
combat. I understand that they were able to do things that could not be
done with inexperienced guest actors, but I know too little about
swordplay to be able to appreciate what they were doing.
Jeffrey B Mather
>keeps killing him has some excellent fighting. The bloke who
>is the monk is very impressive.
I absolutely agree with this. Whoever it was under the robes is the
only opponent DM has faced who I think could kick AP's butt in a
swordfight in real life (probably because he is a pro swordfighter,
instead of an actor :) ).
If this guy has any screen presence at all, they should unmask him and
have him be DM's final opponent in the last episode of the series. Heck, I
even wouldn't mind if they left determination of the winner to a filmed
mock fight where the first person to disarm the other is the victor (using
fake swords, of course; yeah, I know how unrealistic that would make
things, but think how much they could promote the finale!). Then, cut to
a scene where the winner beheads the loser...
Of course, it would only be cool if AP could last longer than five seconds...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Mather Senior, Computer Engineering
jma...@lectura.cs.arizona.edu University of Arizona
Christopher Lau
: In article <Pine.ULT.3.91.960304...@selway.umt.edu>,
: Dennis D Redpath <homi...@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
: > On 23 Feb 1996, Jeffrey T Humbert wrote:
: >
: > > Bill Weinkle (wwei...@shadow.net) wrote:
: > > : I am curious! How many of you fence? Is anyone seriously involved in
: > > : martial arts? I ask, because it might be interesting to examine the great
: > > : cinematic swordfights. Excluding the obvious and overrated "Princess
: > > : Bride"- What are the best scenes anyone can recall? Cyrano?
: > > : Captain Blood? Yojimbo? Out with it!
: > > : cordially,
: > >
: > > I thought the sword fight in Rob Roy was done better than most. I haven't
: > > seen Braveheart, were their any memmorable moments in there?
: > >
: > >
: >
: > As a fencer, I would have to agree that the Rob Roy fight was fairly
: > authentic. Contrary to what many people think, a person trained in rapier
: > could easily defeat someone wielding a two-handed sword or even a long
: > sword. It is just a matter of techniques.
: the question is, how would the rapier itself stand up against a heavier
: sword, if the two fighter's were pretty evenly matched.
Quite well actually.. Rapiers were better made than most big broadswords
which were really meant more for bashing plate armor than for duelling.
Neither could really compare to a katana for edge hardness and sharpness,
but then the rapier is much more flexible and able to absorb shocks, and
the broadsword simply thicker and more massive such that any damage you
do to the blade would be insignificant and would not impair the function
of the weapon to any great extent.
Rapier or katana vs. broadsword would be fine as long as you stuck to
deflection and avoidance (which is the normal course anyways) didn't try
to perform a block against the broadsword- the bigger sword is simply too
massive and would do some severe damage to the smaller swords.
Rapier vs. katana would be pretty evenly matched.. the rapier would get some
pretty good dings if the user tried to block a katana stroke, but the katana
is much more vulnerable to damage from blows to the flat of the sword and
could get in some trouble if the blade were ever trapped in the quillons
of the rapier.
The actual problem is not the disparity between sword quality (because there
were excellent swords of all types) but the disparity between fighting styles
with these weapons.. These weapons were meant for different purposes, and
thus the fighting styles differ with intended use- the broadsword (and later
the mace and then the firearm) for crushing and penetrating plate armor, the
katana for use against unarmored opponents (or to use on the weak points
(lacing, openings) in armor), its predecessor, the tachi, for use from
horseback, and the rapier for light chain or leathers (after the firearm
rendered plate armor obsolete)- they were never meant for use against one
another, they're out of different time periods and different geographic
locations, but Hollywood being what it is...
But for the sake of argument, let's assume that someone decide to duel with
different weapons, how would the differing styles affect the outcome? Let's
take the scene in Rob Roy for instance- the rapier style is much faster than
broadsword, and because of this, you can get in many cuts, but while these
cuts hurt, they're not certainly not disabling; you normally need to hit a
vital organ to end the fight. On the other hand, the broadsword style is
slower and is vulnerable to attacks from faster weapons, but you put a lot
more force into your blows so all you need is one good hit, and your opponent
is down for the count.. So the answer is: it really depends on the skill
of the opponents- is the rapier fighter good enough to avoid getting mauled
by the big sword, is he fast enough to exploit the openings left by the
slower technique? Is the broadsword wielder tough enough to shrug off the
multiple wounds that he's inevitably going to receive? Is he good enough
to prevent his opponent from taking advantage of the holes left in his defense?
Unless the weapon quality is far disparate, it's not the weapon that will
determine the outcome, but the wielders of those weapons.
: Lisa
: --
: LC Krakowka
: hc...@cornell.edu
: CIT Lab Webmistress/LTC Web Team
: http://krakowka.cit.cornell.edu/hpage/lisa.html
c4
KnightHawk
I would agree with him on the swordfighting. They do leave alot of holes in it. As with most
choreographed fights do. They usually just try to clash swords together. Me and my friend when I
was trying to learn how to fight with a sword did alot of that, when someone else looked at it,
it looked really good, in fact better than real swordfighting, there's more action. My evaluation
seems from that fighting it's almost like their both defending sometimes.
B Amini
>
> the question is, how would the rapier itself stand up against a heavier
> sword, if the two fighter's were pretty evenly matched.
>
>
I would think that the rapier wielder would have the advantage because
he could strike quicker. Also he would have greater stamina as he has
the lighter sword. A raiper vs. broadsword strategy I'd employ would
be to remain defensive early, avoiding blows more so than parrying
them, then go on the offensive later when I can take advantage of his
arm weariness in addition to my quicker striking capability.
If I had the broadsword, I'd hope for the quick kill, otherwise: run
away! :-)
--Bob
Unknown
Actually, Sean Connery is a classically trained actor and the ability
to fence was a requirement of every actor in the 1930's, 1940's, and
1950's. In a way, the ability to swing a blade insured an acting job.
This explains all those swashbuckler movies. Going to Japan has
NOTHING to do with it. Not a flame, but it is pure ignorance to think
the Japanese have nothing better to do than to play with swords. It's
almost like saying everyone in Texas straps on the six shooters and
wrestle steers all day. CAN YOU FEEL THE IGNORANCE RADIATING OFF YOUR
SCREEN YET?
-STONE
On Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:18:15 GMT, wah...@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr. W.Y.
Chan) wrote:
>Claire Maier (bioa...@larry.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
>>SNIP SNIP<<
>In one of Christopher Lambert's interview he mentioned about Sean Connery
>as a master swordsman who knows how to handle the blade, maybe in the
>film it did not do him any justice? Remember in the Bond film "You Only
>Live Twice" Connery went to Japan to learn the Japanese way its no surprise
>as a knowledgable actor he would have picked up a few skill in swordplay.
>
> Wah.
cornw...@osu.edu
>From: mcast...@ivory.trentu.ca
>Subject: Re: Swordfighting
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:39:29 GMT
Question:
Isn't Michael Wincott the same guy who was the arch criminal in "The Crow"?
B. Clawson
Thieves also (Sheriff of Nottingham). Brock
Albert C. Young
kagato <kag...@nando.net> wrote:
>
>On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 mcast...@ivory.trentu.ca wrote:
>
>> Is Swordfighting/fencing/kendo/any other type of swordplay an art form
>> or are they sports ?
>
I guess the first question is what is an art form and what is a sport?
Next question why can't they be both depending on who practices them
and why?
Case in point, A person learns kendo in his dojo,
he then uses this in a "fight" on stage. Art Form?
same person now uses this style in a tourney at the SCA where he is fighting
for championship in the list. Sport?
Still useing the same moves, style, etc.
--
I am the imp of the Perverse \ There Can Be Only One....
Knowing this will not help. *====!==============-----
Fe O "E" ____/ Ah but one what?
2 3
Mawdies
>
>> Is Swordfighting/fencing/kendo/any other type of swordplay an art form
>> or are they sports ?
Both. Years ago, when my oldest son (now 24) was 10 and in serious
danger of watching too many Bruce Lee movies and thinking he was hot
stuff, I decided it was time for him to learn the REAL stuff. There was a
Karate dojo right around the corner from us in Anaheim, CA and rather
resentfully, he attended. John was only there for a year, but soon became
a star pupil and went to the weekend seminars and learned some of the
Kendo sword katas.
During the time he was there, his teacher, Kyoshi Yamazaki, taught and
was in the movies Conan the Barbarian (Yes, that was the little Oriental
guy who cracked Arnold across the face in the training sequence), Red
Sonja (same thing, except Brigitte beat him) and choreograophed the knife
scene between Kyle McLachlan and Sting in Dune. John even got to meet
Sandahl Bergman and Gerry Lopez from CTB, and the krysknife from Dune is
on display in the dojo (and, yes he still teaches there.)
Those swordfighting scenes are about as close to the real thing as you
can get when it comes to Samurai fighting. A lot of the stances Duncan
does and from that same fighting style.
The one thing John found out when he was taking those few lessons in
swordfighting was that Yamazaki changed fighting styles according to the
individual. In the first Conan movie, Sandahl Bergman was a dancer, so her
moves are fluid and light: Arnold was strictly a series of upper body
power stances, utilizing a very heavy sword: and Gerry's moves were
focused on a lower stance, using his legs as the center point, as he was a
surfer. Watch the movie again: it's interesting when you see it just for
the swordfighting.
Watching the Duelin' Duncans was interesting in how different the
styles were: Claymore vs. Katana. Since Adrian was filmed doing both
Duncans, you can tell which style he was more geared to. Would have been
interesting to throw Arnold and his sword in and see what would have
happened...?
Anne
PS The battle scenes in Braveheart were terrific -- hack and slash, but
nice and bloody. Don't see this movie if you've had lasagne or spaghetti
for dinner...
B. Clawson
haven't seen the movie in a while. SofN cousin. Darn it, I hate it when I
can't remember. Have the same problem with ep names. Heck I didn't even
know HL had titles until about 2 weeks after I watched it on a regular
basis. I'm more or less a newbie, but I didn't admit it before because I
never really made an ass of myself. BTW can someone come to my rescue on
the RH:POfT thing. I loved Wincott in the Crow. Brock
On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Boss Lady wrote:
> In article <Pine.A32.3.91j.96030...@homer17.u.washington.edu>
> broc...@u.washington.edu "B. Clawson" writes:
>
> > Yes sir ee. Same guy, and I believe he was in Robin Hood:Prince of
> > Thieves also (Sheriff of Nottingham). Brock
>
> Whoops! Have I missed something? The Sheriff of Nottingham in
> Robin Hood; Prince of Drekk (sorry, thieves. My judgement of the
> movie is showing) was Alan Rickman. Major English actor, you know.
> Was also in Diehard. Played the baddie. Okay?
>
> --
> Bosslady
> Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
>
>