Finally! Gay Immortals Show Up on Highlander
Queenie
Logan wrote:
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> On the latest show that I saw tonight it was great to see homosexual
> immortals show up on the show tonight. After Richie killed the black
> immortal's lover (or companion as he reffered it to) the Black
> immortals goes after Richie. Too bad he didn't kill Richie.
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> LO...@gil.net
1) It is GOOD that "leather boy" did NOT kill Richie. We love Richie and would
feel awful if something bad happened to him; for example, if he were to lose
his head, or if he were forced to read one of Eric's posts on the NG.
2) I'm glad to know that I am not the only person who thought that the guest
immies were gay. When I mentioned it to my fellow Highlander viewers that I
thought that the two of men were more than friends, they shrieked, "Oh, Mom,
you're so warped!"
3) I don't normally correct the spelling errors of others, but referred
has only one f. It is from the Latin re + ferre. If more people would
study Latin in school, there would be fewer egregious spelling errors in
the world.
Queenie
Regina orbis terrarum
JMJ
Queenie wrote:
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> 1) It is GOOD that "leather boy" did NOT kill Richie. We love Richie and would
> feel awful if something bad happened to him; for example, if he were to lose
> his head, or if he were forced to read one of Eric's posts on the NG.
>
> 2) I'm glad to know that I am not the only person who thought that the guest
> immies were gay. When I mentioned it to my fellow Highlander viewers that I
> thought that the two of men were more than friends, they shrieked, "Oh, Mom,
> you're so warped!"
>
> 3) I don't normally correct the spelling errors of others, but referred
> has only one f. It is from the Latin re + ferre. If more people would
> study Latin in school, there would be fewer egregious spelling errors in
> the world.
>
> Queenie
> Regina orbis terrarum
No Queenie, you're not warped. My husband and I were watching and we
both thought the same thing. There was just something subtly different
than on other male friendships they've shown.
Jan
Logan
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On the latest show that I saw tonight it was great to see homosexual
Greg Novak
If "leather boy" were gay, does that make Richie's murder of him a hate
crime?
--
C'ya
Greg N.
Wikahsimwa Mozwa (Little Deer)
http://www.prairienet.org/~gnovak1/homepage.html
Anne Gwin
>
> No Queenie, you're not warped. My husband and I were watching and we
> both thought the same thing. There was just something subtly different
> than on other male friendships they've shown.
>
> Jan
Subtle? Come on! "Friends" don't stay together for 900 years! Or go after
your friend's murderer the way, oh, I dunno, Mme de Valicourt went after
ROG...
ATRO
(who thinks gay immies is a good idea, BTW!)
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (ag...@mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
"ZOG!!"--The Brady Bunch Tiki
Jean W. Williams
[Spoiler Space]
Well it must've been so "subtle" that I certainly didn't see it.
If Amanda and Rebecca sleeping in the same bed was mere historical
correctness on the part of the writers, as has been argued in this ng,
then why can't the same be said for the 900-year relationship of two male
immortals one of whom refers to the other as his "squire" (i.e., lord and
master). Could the latter not have been simply a verrrrrry faithful
retainer? Or do immortals have to jump in bed with a different member of
the opposite sex each and every week [a la Duncan] to prove their
heterosexuality?
If these two were gay, fine. But I don't see that it was even remotely
hinted at in the script.
Perhaps this reflects our own cultural bias. Maybe we are better prepared
to accept women as inseparable companions than men?
-- Jean Williams
jqw...@is2.nyu.edu
Andrea Krause
On 13 Oct 1996 18:02:42 GMT, jqw...@is2.nyu.edu (Jean W. Williams)
wrote:
I thought a squire was a servant/apprentice who handled their weapons
and things? Thats what "leather boy" (I forgot his name already)
seemed to be doing.
Andrea
Wade Pyro Boger
>Subtle? Come on! "Friends" don't stay together for 900 years! Or go after
>your friend's murderer the way, oh, I dunno, Mme de Valicourt went after
>ROG...
Uh, who's to say really. I'm not saying they were or weren't invovled, but ow
many people do you know that are 900+ years old? eh? As far as the ferver
for which he went after Richie, keep in mind how incredibly cheesed was when
Darius was killed. If I had a best friend for only ten years and saw the guy
who killed him, you better believe I would go after him with all I had.
Pyro
--
Wade "Pyro" Boger <WXB...@PSU.EDU>
_ Penn State University, Schuykill Campus
, __ ________H__________________________________________________
(@\\o\\=/=+=+=[] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
^-^-~~-~~~~~~~H~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ "It's a Kind of Magic"- Highlander
"No time for sanity, chum!"- The Tick
CGolytlee
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Man... I can't believe everyone else out there saw this. I missed it
first time through, but after it was pointed out to me and I watched the
ep again... I totally agree. It was nice to see... but wouldn't it be
nice if it wasn't just implied, but was stated? Oh well.
Christine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CGol...@aol.com
"We are on a journey to keep an appointment
with who we are." --G. Roddenberry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RosebudSal
In article <53rj91$n...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, gno...@prairienet.org (Greg
Novak) writes:
>.
>
>If these immortals were really gay, then the storywriters were
>homophobic, not bold. Richie killed this guy for no reason. Unless we
>assume that Richie killed him because he was gay and he hates gays.
>--
>C'ya
>Greg N.
I don't think so. Richie killed Carter simply because Carter was an
Immortal, Richie had been on a hunting rampage and felt like killing him.
And because as he told Mac earlier, it's because that's "what we do."
Maria
"The best day is always the one we're in."
Kip Allen
Greg Novak wrote:
>
> In a previous article, noi...@datadepot.com (noirage) says:
>
> >Dear Highlanders!
> >
> >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
> >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
> >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
>
> If these immortals were really gay, then the storywriters were
> homophobic, not bold. Richie killed this guy for no reason. Unless we
> assume that Richie killed him because he was gay and he hates gays.
> --
> C'ya
> Greg N.
> http://www.prairienet.org/~gnovak1/homepage.html
Richie killed him because he reverted back into his punk mode and was
looking to make a name for himself. I don't think the immie's sexual
orientation ever entered Richie's head.
Kip
Pickled
CGolytlee wrote:
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> Spoilers
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> Man... I can't believe everyone else out there saw this. I missed it
> first time through, but after it was pointed out to me and I watched the
> ep again... I totally agree. It was nice to see... but wouldn't it be
> nice if it wasn't just implied, but was stated? Oh well.
>
> Christine
>
I, too, didn't give it much thought when I first saw the episode, but after reading
everyone else's thoughts on the subject, I can see that their relationship could easily
be interpreted as that of lovers. Yes, when Carter and Clay first started out it was
common for a knight to have a squire, but in 1996? There must be something more
there...
Alice.
noirage
Dear Highlanders!
Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
The old saying 'Actions speak louder than words' did not totally apply
here; the words spoke very very loudly indeed. Direct quote: "...He was
my squire, my companion...". I have always had a feeling about that the
relationship between 'Knight' and 'Squire' was extremely special; just as
it could be between "Knight' and 'King' - Lancelot and Arthur, etc.
Thoughts?
Anway, as a very proud Black lesbian and writer fo 'slash' fan-fic, I
enjoyed the entire episode, but, yes, that was the icing on the cake.
Gayly and Immortally yours,
Jatona Walker
Mike Chary
noirage <noi...@datadepot.com> wrote:
>Dear Highlanders!
>
>Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
>on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
>very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
Bold. They were wimps. I don't even think they meant it to be taken that
way. I won't settle for anything less than the word "love" being used.
>The old saying 'Actions speak louder than words' did not totally apply
>here; the words spoke very very loudly indeed. Direct quote: "...He was
>my squire, my companion...".
"on hundreds of campaigns on five continents."
There was more after the buzz word "companions."
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "The best argument against
democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
JRW4
Hmmm... a gay immortal. Kind-of gives a whole new meaning to "...taking
your head", doesn't it???
Ok, ok. No flames, please -- though I suppose I'd deserve it after that
crack! ;)
--
Secrets to making money on the Internet!
We won't tell you to spam anyone, or to stuff
dollar bills in envelopes & mail them out.
We *will* tell you how to become a member of the
best and easiest moneymaking opportunity on the
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http://freedomstarr.com/?wa9431673
JMJ <jmja...@accessus.net> wrote in article
<3260AF...@accessus.net>...
> Queenie wrote:
> >
>
> > > Spoiler
> > 1) It is GOOD that "leather boy" did NOT kill Richie. We love Richie
and would
> > feel awful if something bad happened to him; for example, if he
were to lose
> > his head, or if he were forced to read one of Eric's posts on the
NG.
> >
> > 2) I'm glad to know that I am not the only person who thought that the
guest
> > immies were gay. When I mentioned it to my fellow Highlander
viewers that I
> > thought that the two of men were more than friends, they shrieked,
"Oh, Mom,
> > you're so warped!"
> >
> > 3) I don't normally correct the spelling errors of others, but
referred
> > has only one f. It is from the Latin re + ferre. If more people
would
> > study Latin in school, there would be fewer egregious spelling
errors in
> > the world.
> >
> > Queenie
> > Regina orbis terrarum
>
Greg Novak
In a previous article, noi...@datadepot.com (noirage) says:
>Dear Highlanders!
>
>Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
>on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
>very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
If these immortals were really gay, then the storywriters were
Renzo Frattarolo
On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Logan wrote:
> On the latest show that I saw tonight it was great to see homosexual
> immortals show up on the show tonight. After Richie killed the black
> immortal's lover (or companion as he reffered it to) the Black
> immortals goes after Richie. Too bad he didn't kill Richie.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't think they were gay @ all.
There was no mention of that, and "companion" DOES have other
meanings. They were just friends....
-gil-
eda...@cts.com
In <53ptnq$c...@newsfeed.gil.net>, Lo...@gil.net (Logan) writes:
>On the latest show that I saw tonight it was great to see homosexual
>immortals show up on the show tonight. After Richie killed the black
>immortal's lover (or companion as he reffered it to) the Black
>immortals goes after Richie. Too bad he didn't kill Richie.
I agree with the idea of killing Richie, the Wesley Crusher of
immortals.
However, there is no evidence that the characters were gay. They were
friends, buddies, pals, comrades.
Edmond Dantes
eda...@cts.com
PGP public key and resume (I'm always looking for work) are available at:
http://www.free.cts.com/crash/e/edantes
Claire Maier
Greg Novak (gno...@prairienet.org) wrote:
:
:
: >Dear Highlanders!
: >
: >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
: >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
: >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
:
: If these immortals were really gay, then the storywriters were
: homophobic, not bold. Richie killed this guy for no reason. Unless we
: assume that Richie killed him because he was gay and he hates gays.
He killed him because he was an immortal. Richie had no idea that his
companion even existed when he whacked him. Richie was just out
collecting heads and quickenings.
I think a gay relationship was implied. I mean, these two hung out
together for 900 years. Whereas with Amanda and Rebecca, it was a
teacher/student thing, and Amanda was out and on her own after 3 years.
There's also Matlin and Kurlow, who were just about inseparable.
Barbara J. Nelson
Once again <sigh> -- DON'T PUT AN ACTUAL SPOILER IN THE SUBJECT
HEADER!!!!!!!
I'm sorry I'm yelling at you, but I have avoided any and all spoilers on
this ep - which I still have not seen - and tonight I have been hit with
two spoilers without any warning!!!
I had been happily ignorant of this info until I read your subject header.
PLEASE- PLEASE - PLEASE be more careful and considerate of others. We'd
like the chance to see the ep and be surprised ourselves!!! Thank you,
-----------------------------------------
BJ :) --------,'---{@
bne...@airmail.net
---------------
A Thought for the Day:
ON DEEP THOUGHTS
A day without sunshine is like night.
Logan <Lo...@gil.net> wrote in article <53ptnq$c...@newsfeed.gil.net>...
> Spoiler
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Original Subject Title: Finally! Gay Immortals Show Up on Highlander
> .
Greg Novak
In a previous article, k...@cyberg8t.com (Kip Allen) says:
>Greg Novak wrote:
>>
>> In a previous article, noi...@datadepot.com (noirage) says:
>>
>> >Dear Highlanders!
>> >
>> >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
>> >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
>> >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
>>
>> If these immortals were really gay, then the storywriters were
>> homophobic, not bold. Richie killed this guy for no reason. Unless we
>> assume that Richie killed him because he was gay and he hates gays.
>> --
>> C'ya
>> Greg N.
>> Wikahsimwa Mozwa (Little Deer)
>> http://www.prairienet.org/~gnovak1/homepage.html
>
>Richie killed him because he reverted back into his punk mode and was
>looking to make a name for himself. I don't think the immie's sexual
>orientation ever entered Richie's head.
>
>Kip
Well, I don't believe the immies were gay either. But, I can't see that
it is in Richie's character all of a sudden to start killing immies like
this. He had no reason. Even when he was a punk, we saw a basic
humanity in him. Now all of a sudden he is a cold hearted murderer.
Personally, after seeing this ep, I have lost all sympathy for him (he
used to be my favorite character). Now, I would like to see someone take
his head, and I wouldn't mind if Duncan did it.
But, if these immies were gay, I can see that that was a motivation for
the murder. Richie did call this guy, "leatherboy," in a rather mocking
way. Wearing leather, of course, doesn't necessarily mean anything, but
there certainly is a leather crowd in the gay sub-culture. His mocking
remark certainly meant something.
So, I see two possible ways of reading this ep. 1.) Richie is now a
cold-hearted murderer or 2.)Richie is a homophobe, and a cold-hearted
murderer.
John Ceszynski
pals, & comrades out there and you'd be hard pressed to tell. I
finally introduced my friends to some other friends of mine who just
moved here and guess what...they thought they were just "pals" as well.
I'm just glad my husband is open minded enough to handle having
friends who are different.
Leslie
Mike Chary
Greg Novak <gno...@prairienet.org> wrote:
spoilers
>
>So, I see two possible ways of reading this ep. 1.) Richie is now a
>cold-hearted murderer or 2.)Richie is a homophobe, and a cold-hearted
>murderer.
Lest we get too terribly maudlin about Carter Wellman, he didn't mind
watching Haresh kill Graham despite Graham not wanting to fight.
Richie didn't just suddenly *attack* Carter. He challenged him. Carter
accepted. *AND* Carter had every reason to believe he'd win. He was at
least 900 years old, and had been hanging around Haresh "Oh. my God, it's
Haresh" Clay for close to a millenium. He didn't have to go outside.
Challenges and fighting are part of what they do. Remember that Duncan
hasn't exactly been shy about challenging people like Xavier St. Cloud.
(I am thinking of when Xavier challenged his Arabian friend, not when
Xavier was nervegassing people :))
It was a fair challenge, given fairly. They both knew what they were
getting into. Richie was kinda a jerk about it, but Carter did not *have*
to accept.
Also, immies in general are pretty damn short tempered from all I have seen.
The only one I have ever seen use *any* forethought is Methos.
Perhaps he *is* Promethios. It does mean "forethought" after all :)
Daniel Morris DeRight
Excerpts from netnews.alt.tv.highlander: 13-Oct-96 Re: Finally! Gay
Immortals.. by Pic...@mail.idt.net
I would definitely say they were lovers. It didn't occur to me that
anything else could have been intended until I started reading posts
here. Of course, 900 years ago, squires or their equivalent, were often
used for such things, though not as publically as is allowable today.
For them not to have been lovers for some portion of those 900 years
would have surprised me.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
sod...@cmu.edu
Wade Pyro Boger
Ok, I'll give some spoiler space
Ok. The question is whether Harish and Carter were a gay couple. I am
inclined to say no, and there is a simple reason why to believe they were just
friends, and that is just this:
The entire theme of this show is that of friendship and what friends are
willing to do for each other. Joe's friendship with Duncan and what's that
worth to him (Giving up the watchers). Duncan's friendship with Richie and
what that's worth to him(swallowing pride. New sword). Joe's friendship
with Richie and what that's worth to him(or not...not worth enough to go
against Duncan's wishes and break his vow). Duncan's fridnship with Graham
and what it's worth to him (taking on Clay). Richie's friendship with Duncan
and what it's worth to him (giving up clay. Forgiving Duncan.). Duncan's
friendship with Joe and what it's worth to him ("go back to the Watchers.
We'll work it out"). The theme of Harishe's friendship with Carter and what
it's worth to him(Hunt Richie like the dog he is ;) ) fits right in. The
idea of romantic love kinda messes it up a bit.
Hardly conclsive proof, but that's my take on the situation.
Greg Novak
In a previous article, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) says:
>Greg Novak <gno...@prairienet.org> wrote:
>
>spoilers
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>>
>>So, I see two possible ways of reading this ep. 1.) Richie is now a
>>cold-hearted murderer or 2.)Richie is a homophobe, and a cold-hearted
>>murderer.
>
>Lest we get too terribly maudlin about Carter Wellman, he didn't mind
>watching Haresh kill Graham despite Graham not wanting to fight.
Richie new nothing of this when he fought Carter. In examing his moral
character, it can not be taken into consideration, IMHO. Also, we knew
absolutely nothing about why Haresh killed Graham. All we know about the
sitiuation is what Graham says to Duncan much later. He said something
like, "So then, you agree with what Graham did." So, all we know is that
Graham did something that really pissed Harash off. It may have been
something pretty bad. But, the writers have left us in the dark about
his motives, so we don't know. But, we do know that the writers don't
usually keep us in the dark. Usually the bad guys are portrayed as evil,
pure and simple. They may be greedy for power, or dominance, or
whatever, but they always act in an evil manner. Duncan's main
motivation for fighting, is to conquer evil, not just kill for the game.
But, in Haresh, he killed for an unknown reason.
>Richie didn't just suddenly *attack* Carter. He challenged him. Carter
>accepted. *AND* Carter had every reason to believe he'd win.
Now wait a minute. I may not pay close attention to detail all the time,
but it seems to me that Carter clearly did not want to fight. He tried
to end it before it got to far, and Richie just kept escalating it. He
wanted to kill, just to kill. These are the motivations of an evil
person. These are the kinda people that Duncan usually goes after.
Let's not forgot that it was Carter who said something like, "You are not
prepared to fight (or was it die) over a bad joke." Carter clearly did
not want to fight Richie, and would have ended it any second had Richie
not been on the offensive.
>Challenges and fighting are part of what they do. Remember that Duncan
>hasn't exactly been shy about challenging people like Xavier St. Cloud.
Duncan challenges evil people. When Highlander degenerates into the good
guys getting away with murder simply because its a game, then the show
is entirely different from what it was before. Now it is sympathetic to
evil and not good. And, good no longer triumphs over evil, as a little
13 year old boy used to believe.
>Also, immies in general are pretty damn short tempered from all I have seen.
Certainly the evil ones are.
Barbara J. Nelson
Wade "Pyro" Boger <wxb...@psu.edu> wrote in article
<wxb106.45...@psu.edu>...
I haven't seen this ep yet, (but I have finally broken down and am now
reading the spoilers - I got two last night without any warning and that
shattered what was left of my resistance - That and the station that was
supposed to air it this weekend lost its whole tower and is off the air!!
:((( )
Anyway, I have no take on whether or not these two guys are gay or not,
(fine with me either way), but I would like to point out that
romantic/physical love and friendship are NOT mutually exclusive. If they
were gay it does not mean that Harish(?) would not react the same way as he
would to the death of a long time, very close friend (which is what I
suppose his lover would have been anyway). JMO, and if this is out of
allignment with the ep (since I haven't seen it yet), well, then - Sorry!
DarkScar
>Man... I can't believe everyone else out there saw this. I missed it
>first time through, but after it was pointed out to me and I watched the
>ep again... I totally agree. It was nice to see... but wouldn't it be
>nice if it wasn't just implied, but was stated? Oh well.
>Christine
To add to all the confusuion and posts inside of posts... wasn't this
about GAY immies and now it's got back around to Off with Richie's
head????.... Anyway... to support the idea of Hareesh being gay...
didn't the middle eastern men of 900 some odd years ago have a habit
of playing with young men in a most personal fasion??? Hmmmm???? After
all the middle eastern mores and morals ARE much different from
western... and they were MUCH MUCH different 900 years ago!
Does this reinforce or change anybody's opnion on the subject???
Martin Bosworth
Mike Chary (fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
: noirage <noi...@datadepot.com> wrote:
: >Dear Highlanders!
: >
: >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
: >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
: >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
: Bold. They were wimps. I don't even think they meant it to be taken that
: way. I won't settle for anything less than the word "love" being used.
Mike, did I miss your election as Arbiter of Homosexual Innuendoes or some
such? *I* thought it was pretty clear that the two were in love. Clay's
rampage after Carter's death was as much proof as I needed.
If we differ, it doesn't make me right or you wrong. It's simply up to the
individual. Besides, which do you prefer, this approach, or the "Let's hint
around, then drop it like a rock" approach prevalent in so many Tv shows and
comics today?
: >The old saying 'Actions speak louder than words' did not totally apply
: >here; the words spoke very very loudly indeed. Direct quote: "...He was
: >my squire, my companion...".
: "on hundreds of campaigns on five continents."
: There was more after the buzz word "companions."
So? They fought together, traveled together, and presumably lived together.
They could have been friends, lovers, both, or none. The point is Clay cared for Wellan
a great deal, and wanted Richie headless.
Martin (wrath, taking it to the stage)
Bosworth
Morey, Kathy M
Greg Novak wrote:
>
> In a previous article, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) says:
>
> >Greg Novak <gno...@prairienet.org> wrote:
> >
> >spoilers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>So, I see two possible ways of reading this ep. 1.) Richie is now a
> >>cold-hearted murderer or 2.)Richie is a homophobe, and a cold-hearted
> >>murderer.
> >
> >Lest we get too terribly maudlin about Carter Wellman, he didn't mind
> >watching Haresh kill Graham despite Graham not wanting to fight.
>
> Richie new nothing of this when he fought Carter. In examing his moral
> character, it can not be taken into consideration, IMHO. Also, we knew
> absolutely nothing about why Haresh killed Graham. All we know about the
> sitiuation is what Graham says to Duncan much later. He said something
> like, "So then, you agree with what Graham did." So, all we know is that
> Graham did something that really pissed Harash off. It may have been
> something pretty bad. But, the writers have left us in the dark about
> his motives, so we don't know. But, we do know that the writers don't
> usually keep us in the dark. Usually the bad guys are portrayed as evil,
> pure and simple. They may be greedy for power, or dominance, or
> whatever, but they always act in an evil manner. Duncan's main
> motivation for fighting, is to conquer evil, not just kill for the game.
> But, in Haresh, he killed for an unknown reason.
Um, I heard that part a little differently. When DM said, "You had no
quarrel with Graham Ash" and Clay said "So, you condone what he did",
*I* thought Clay was referring to what *Rich* did, i.e., killed Carter
for no particular reason. So, when DM answered, "We fight to the death,
that's what we do", I took it as him refusing to condemn Rich for
playing the Game, in a way DM personally thinks is wrong, in front of
Clay, because that's how Clay was playing the Game when he took Ash.
And I think DM's reasons for going after Clay were three-fold - to
regain the self-respect he feels he lost when Clay humiliated him; to
avenge Graham Ash, who begged for his life; and to protect Richie,
despite what he said to Richie about not being his guardian angel.
(He did the same thing to Amanda with Luther, because he thought he
had a better chance of winning.) Just MHO.
>
> >Richie didn't just suddenly *attack* Carter. He challenged him. Carter
> >accepted. *AND* Carter had every reason to believe he'd win.
>
> Now wait a minute. I may not pay close attention to detail all the time,
> but it seems to me that Carter clearly did not want to fight. He tried
> to end it before it got to far, and Richie just kept escalating it. He
> wanted to kill, just to kill. These are the motivations of an evil
> person. These are the kinda people that Duncan usually goes after.
> Let's not forgot that it was Carter who said something like, "You are not
> prepared to fight (or was it die) over a bad joke." Carter clearly did
> not want to fight Richie, and would have ended it any second had Richie
> not been on the offensive.
I agree here...I think Carter would have let the whole thing go at any
time if Rich would have allowed it.
>
> >Challenges and fighting are part of what they do. Remember that Duncan
> >hasn't exactly been shy about challenging people like Xavier St. Cloud.
>
> Duncan challenges evil people. When Highlander degenerates into the good
> guys getting away with murder simply because its a game, then the show
> is entirely different from what it was before. Now it is sympathetic to
> evil and not good. And, good no longer triumphs over evil, as a little
> 13 year old boy used to believe.
>
I don't think the HL is degenerating...Mac obviously thought that Rich
was wrong, and I'm not sure *Rich* likes himself too much lately... I
didn't think he looked at all at ease with himself, or content with his
life...I think he was so hurt when his best friend and teacher tried to
whack him, and so humiliated that this person "played" with him before
disarming him that he is operating on pure anger and
self-loathing...remember, Mac and Tessa were two of the few people who
*ever* cared about Richie Ryan...to have Mac turn on him must have made
him feel like he was the biggest fool on the planet to ever trust
another human being.
I hope that, as Rich mends his fences with Mac and learns to trust
again, that he will also be able to come back to the basic morality he
possessed, and that was being reinforced by DM's sense of honor, before
the whole Dark Q/betrayal incident. (And I also hope we get to see this
process instead of it being presented as a fait accompli.)
> --
> C'ya
> Greg N.
Kathy
Randy Lai
Dark...@ix.netcom.com (DarkScar) wrote:
>head????.... Anyway... to support the idea of Hareesh being gay...
>didn't the middle eastern men of 900 some odd years ago have a habit
>of playing with young men in a most personal fasion??? Hmmmm????
Oh man, you are going to get it. While pro-gays gleefully brandish the
politically incorrect word "homophobe" and use it to threaten anyone who
begs to differ, they seem to have no moral dilemma in shoving their
ideology up anyone's *** just to prove their own point. "Middle Eastern
men have a habit of playing with young men"? If I'm not mistaken, that's
cultural caricature to the 1st degree.
Harrish and Carter were comrades. If the writers didn't explicitly state
it, then all we know are that they are comrades. May have been more,
yes. But don't strut around as if it is proven. But then, I guess
minorities just have to be obnoxious and intrusive just to survive.
Some may not like the darkening of Rich's character, but I for 1 love it.
In my fanfic which I started a year ago (and will finish someday, I
hope), that's exactly how he is. After 4 years it's about time a new
layer is added to his personality. His relationship with Duncan also
turns more complex. It's like a father finding that his son just
committed murder, and the choices which face him.
=ML
Jennifer Walczak
I think that all of you would be correct in saying that it would be nice
to have gay immortals on Highlander, but I dought that was the case. In
the past, the writers have taken chances by talking about
contriversial(sorry if misspelled) issues, for example in season one when
Duncan says (the indian you know).
If the two men were lovers, I dought they would not have a problem
stating it plainly rather than inferring it.
I think it would be great for highlander to have a gay couple on the
show, helping people to realize that homosexual people are not as some
believe them to be, but they too can have meaningful, long term
relationships. Television is one of the best ways to educate people
these days. Hopefully Rysher will read this and agree.
Banzai88
In article <53t8vs$2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, gno...@prairienet.org (Greg
Novak) writes:
spoiler space
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
>Well, I don't believe the immies were gay either. But, I can't see that
>it is in Richie's character all of a sudden to start killing immies like
>this. He had no reason. Even when he was a punk, we saw a basic
>humanity in him. Now all of a sudden he is a cold hearted murderer.
>Personally, after seeing this ep, I have lost all sympathy for him (he
>used to be my favorite character). Now, I would like to see someone take
>his head, and I wouldn't mind if Duncan did it.
>
I think Richie's reasoning for picking the fight were rather clearly set
out in the ep. As Duncan himself has said, "It's what we do."
>But, if these immies were gay, I can see that that was a motivation for
>the murder. Richie did call this guy, "leatherboy," in a rather mocking
>way. Wearing leather, of course, doesn't necessarily mean anything, but
>there certainly is a leather crowd in the gay sub-culture. His mocking
>remark certainly meant something.
"Leather Boy" was meant to do exactly what it did, piss of Clay enough
that he attacked out of rage, not reason, and give Richie a halfway decent
chance of getting away in one piece. And besides, it's not like we've
never seen Richie make a smart remark before.
>
>So, I see two possible ways of reading this ep. 1.) Richie is now a
>cold-hearted murderer or 2.)Richie is a homophobe, and a cold-hearted
>murderer.
All Immortals, some more than others, are killers. Again, "It's what we
do."
The challenge was given and accepted, fair and square.
Chris
Banz...@aol.com
][
@#####|)======================>
][
"Certifiable, and damned proud of it!"
- Dick Solomon
Queenie
Heavens! I don't watch Highlander to get educated.
Queenie
Regina orbis terrarum
Neil Kothari
Randy Lai wrote:
> Dark...@ix.netcom.com (DarkScar) wrote:
> >head????.... Anyway... to support the idea of Hareesh being gay...
> >didn't the middle eastern men of 900 some odd years ago have a habit
> >of playing with young men in a most personal fasion??? Hmmmm????
>
> Oh man, you are going to get it. While pro-gays gleefully brandish the
> politically incorrect word "homophobe" and use it to threaten anyone who
> begs to differ, they seem to have no moral dilemma in shoving their
> ideology up anyone's *** just to prove their own point. "Middle Eastern
> men have a habit of playing with young men"? If I'm not mistaken, that's
> cultural caricature to the 1st degree.
Just because DarkScar writes (albeit without thinking) that "Middle
Eastern men have a habit of playing with young men," that doesn't mean
that all "pro-gays" (whatever that means...) feel that way. There is
*no* correlation between "pro-gays" and feelings toward the middle
east... (My point is -- don't use the word "they" -- and instead use
"you" to address DarkScar.)
--
Neil Kothari -- NK...@worldnet.att.net -- koth...@umdnj.edu
New Jersey Medical School Class of 2000
Neil's World -- http://www.umdnj.edu/~kotharne/
An Excess of INXS -- http://www.columbia.edu/~sbs34/inxs.html
catcon
Kip Allen wrote:
>
> Greg Novak wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Dear Highlanders!
> > >
> > >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
> > >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
> > >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
> >
> > homophobic, not bold. Richie killed this guy for no reason. Unless we
> > assume that Richie killed him because he was gay and he hates gays.
> > C'ya
> > Greg N.
> looking to make a name for himself. I don't think the immie's sexual
> orientation ever entered Richie's head.
>
> Kip
Here Here!! I'm finally glad someone said it. Will someone please
explain what sexual preference has to do with anything? I personally
feel that if everyone involved is over age 18, no one is being forced or
coerced, and no one gets hurt, what business is it of mine?
Connie, who just wants to live and let live :)
--
*****************************************************************************
Nip it! Nip it in the bud!
--Deputy Barney Fife
*****************************************************************************
Greg Novak
Yeah, I think I was way off on my interpretation of those words. But, I
still think Richie murdered "leatherboy" for no good reason. Only and
evil reason.
>> >Richie didn't just suddenly *attack* Carter. He challenged him. Carter
>> >accepted. *AND* Carter had every reason to believe he'd win.
>>
>> Now wait a minute. I may not pay close attention to detail all the time,
>> but it seems to me that Carter clearly did not want to fight. He tried
>> to end it before it got to far, and Richie just kept escalating it. He
>> wanted to kill, just to kill. These are the motivations of an evil
>> person. These are the kinda people that Duncan usually goes after.
>> Let's not forgot that it was Carter who said something like, "You are not
>> prepared to fight (or was it die) over a bad joke." Carter clearly did
>> not want to fight Richie, and would have ended it any second had Richie
>> not been on the offensive.
>
>I agree here...I think Carter would have let the whole thing go at any
>time if Rich would have allowed it.
Yeah, that's why the fight bothered me so much. It was completely
uneccessary. Richie acted totally evil here. I can't sympathize with
him any more.
--
C'ya
Greg N.
Donna Cuzzort
Great big snip since I don't have anything to contribute one way or
the other on what I snipped.
>Some may not like the darkening of Rich's character, but I for 1 love it.
> In my fanfic which I started a year ago (and will finish someday, I
>hope), that's exactly how he is.
After 4 years it's about time a new
>layer is added to his personality.
I really do agree with you on this 100 percent.
His relationship with Duncan also
>turns more complex. It's like a father finding that his son just
>committed murder, and the choices which face him.
Yeah I see that too real clear. And if I am the parent what would I
do? I would support (emotionally as well as with money if I could)
the kid no matter what.
>=ML
Sanjo
Wade Pyro Boger wrote:
>
> Ok, I'll give some spoiler space
>
> Ok. The question is whether Harish and Carter were a gay couple. I am
> inclined to say no, and there is a simple reason why to believe they were just
> friends, and that is just this:
>
> The entire theme of this show is that of friendship and what friends are
> willing to do for each other. Joe's friendship with Duncan and what's that
> worth to him (Giving up the watchers). Duncan's friendship with Richie and
> what that's worth to him(swallowing pride. New sword). Joe's friendship
> with Richie and what that's worth to him(or not...not worth enough to go
> against Duncan's wishes and break his vow). Duncan's fridnship with Graham
> and what it's worth to him (taking on Clay). Richie's friendship with Duncan
> and what it's worth to him (giving up clay. Forgiving Duncan.). Duncan's
> friendship with Joe and what it's worth to him ("go back to the Watchers.
> We'll work it out"). The theme of Harishe's friendship with Carter and what
> it's worth to him(Hunt Richie like the dog he is ;) ) fits right in. The
> idea of romantic love kinda messes it up a bit.
>
> Hardly conclsive proof, but that's my take on the situation.
>
> Pyro
> --
> _ Penn State University, Schuykill Campus
> , __ ________H__________________________________________________
> (@\\o\\=/=+=+=[] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
> ^-^-~~-~~~~~~~H~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ "It's a Kind of Magic"- Highlander
> "No time for sanity, chum!"- The Tick
sanjo.
Rick Hammerle
Donna Cuzzort (dcuz...@mail.idt.net) wrote:
: > His relationship with Duncan also
: > committed murder, and the choices which face him.
: Yeah I see that too real clear. And if I am the parent what would I
: do? I would support (emotionally as well as with money if I could)
: the kid no matter what.
Remember, friends help you move. REAL friends help you move bodies.
Kip Allen
> Wade Pyro Boger wrote:
> > The entire theme of this show is that of friendship and what friends are
> > willing to do for each other. Joe's friendship with Duncan and what's that
> > worth to him (Giving up the watchers). Duncan's friendship with Richie and
> > what that's worth to him(swallowing pride. New sword). Joe's friendship
> > with Richie and what that's worth to him(or not...not worth enough to go
> > against Duncan's wishes and break his vow). Duncan's fridnship with Graham
> > and what it's worth to him (taking on Clay). Richie's friendship with Duncan
> > and what it's worth to him (giving up clay. Forgiving Duncan.). Duncan's
> > friendship with Joe and what it's worth to him ("go back to the Watchers.
> > We'll work it out"). The theme of Harishe's friendship with Carter and what
> > it's worth to him(Hunt Richie like the dog he is ;) ) fits right in. The
> > idea of romantic love kinda messes it up a bit.
> >
> > Hardly conclsive proof, but that's my take on the situation.
> >
> > Pyro
Pyro,
Hear, hear! The show is about friendship and loyality. Both these
traits are aspects of love -- which variety is unimportant.
Kip
Marina Frants
Greg Novak wrote:
<lotsa stuff snipped>
>
> Yeah, that's why the fight bothered me so much. It was completely
> uneccessary. Richie acted totally evil here. I can't sympathize with
> him any more.
>
Excuse me. I'm going to rant for a minute here. (And BTW, this
is not a response to Greg in particular, but to many similar sentiments
expressed on the NG recently.)
While I certainly agree that Richie's killing of Carter was not
admirable (to say the least), I think that we should consider it
in context before condemning Richie out of hand as evil beyond
redemption on the basis of one action.
It's obvious that MacLeod's attack was a major traumatic event
for Richie -- he's still having nightmares about it several months
later. I see him as being driven entirely by fear and anger (more
fear than anger, I would say). Duncan MacLeod was the first person
who appeared to give a damn about Richie Ryan, the only person
Richie trusted without reservation, a mentor and a role model. To
have DM turn on him like that must've seemed like the ultimate
betrayal. From Richie's POV, it must've seemed like conclusive
proof that no one can be trusted, ever. The world is full of Immortals,
most of whom are older, stronger, and more experienced than Richie,
and they're all out to kill him. The only solution -- as he says
to DM in their first encounter in EoI -- is to "get them before
they get you." That's fear talking here, pure and simple.
So -- Richie did not hate Carter, he was *afraid* of Carter. If
he even really noticed Carter's reluctance to fight, he probably
dismissed is as an act -- this guy's just trying to get away so
he can try and get me at a disadvantage later. I must get him
before he gets me.
Was Richie wrong to kill Carter? Yes. Was he evil? IMO, no.
I think that deep down he knew he was doing wrong. He certainly
did not strike me as a man at ease with himself. As he rebuilds
his relationship with DM, he will probably return to something
close to his last-season self, though he'll never be quite the
same person. It'll be interesting to see how the character is
developed in future episodes.
Okay, rant over. That wasn't so bad now, was it?
--
Marina Frants
nny...@ny.ubs.com
http://www.sff.net/people/FrantsDeCandido/
||
()###||//////////////////////////////////>>
||
Ghostdancer
900 years ago was a high tide of Islamic expansion. A brilliant and vibrant
new culture was sweeping aside the decayed remnants of the Eastern and
Western Roman Empire. It was the time of the first crusade, when a polyglot
of illiterate war lords use the excuse of retaking of Jerusalem as an
excuse to rape, pillage and plunder their way across Europe and the Middle
East. It likely that Muslim noble Haresh met Carter as the result of the
aftermath of a bloody battle in Palestine.
Hellenic culture was still very prevalent in what was the Eastern Empire,
in spite of the veneer of Christianity dressed on the old polytheism Greek
religion. The church still had not gotten on its high horse about
homosexuality. It was not unusual for a youth of a noble family to be put
into the service of a older man to serve as his squire in any and all
things that should imply. It was considered part of the training to
manhood. Since marriage was almost an arranged affair--there was separation
of love from procreation, and many knights found love and companionship
with their squires whilst breeding children for the continuance of the
family name.
While pro-gays gleefully brandish the
> > politically incorrect word "homophobe" and use it to threaten anyone
who
> > begs to differ, they seem to have no moral dilemma in shoving their
> > ideology up anyone's *** just to prove their own point.
somewhere, when, it is they who have to endure the constant propaganda of
the heterosexual way of life as it is pounded into them by hypocrites
thumping their bibles.
Ghostdancer
Wade "Pyro" Boger <wxb...@psu.edu> wrote in article
<wxb106.45...@psu.edu>...
> Ok, I'll give some spoiler space
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ok. The question is whether Harish and Carter were a gay couple. I am
> inclined to say no, and there is a simple reason why to believe they were
just
> friends, and that is just this:
>
> The entire theme of this show is that of friendship and what friends are
> willing to do for each other. Joe's friendship with Duncan and what's
that
> worth to him (Giving up the watchers). Duncan's friendship with Richie
and
> what that's worth to him(swallowing pride. New sword). Joe's friendship
> with Richie and what that's worth to him(or not...not worth enough to go
> against Duncan's wishes and break his vow). Duncan's fridnship with
Graham
> and what it's worth to him (taking on Clay). Richie's friendship with
Duncan
> and what it's worth to him (giving up clay. Forgiving Duncan.).
Duncan's
> friendship with Joe and what it's worth to him ("go back to the Watchers.
> We'll work it out"). The theme of Harishe's friendship with Carter and
what
> it's worth to him(Hunt Richie like the dog he is ;) ) fits right in.
The
> idea of romantic love kinda messes it up a bit.
>
> Hardly conclsive proof, but that's my take on the situation.
>
> Pyro
> --
> Wade "Pyro" Boger <WXB...@PSU.EDU>
> _ Penn State University, Schuykill Campus
> , __ ________H__________________________________________________
> (@\\o\\=/=+=+=[] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
> ^-^-~~-~~~~~~~H~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ "It's a Kind of Magic"- Highlander
> "No time for sanity, chum!"- The Tick
>
Au contraire. You have made a fine definition of love of a man for a man.
You assume that gays are not capable of such noble ideals--when it is quite
the opposite.
Ghostdancer
Spoiler!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
When Richie walked into the bar, I was so focused on Richie who was having
a major mad on, that I didn't check out the other people in the bar except
for the lesbian who was the arm wrestling bartender. In walks golden boy in
shiny black leather and gives Richie the old buzz.
Richie, immediately picked a fight and golden boy Carter says something to
the effect that he wasn't looking for that kind of head when he walked into
the bar. That could have meant two things. One, a head on a beer, but the
beer was being served in bottles, or, two, that he was looking for oral
sex.
In the flash back, Carter is so attuned to Haresh that he responds without
a word need being said when he passes the sword to him. The shots of when
Haresh and Carter are riding together that are riding close enough for the
knees to make contact. Considering that they were riding in an open area
there was no real need to ride that close, or was it ;-).
Also, am I mistaken in thinking that Graham may have been Haresh's teacher
at one time?
Ghostdancer
ceka
In article <32636A...@cyberg8t.com>, k...@cyberg8t.com says...
>
>Hear, hear! The show is about friendship and loyality. Both these
>traits are aspects of love -- which variety is unimportant.
>
>Kip
When I originally watched this episode I did not pick up on the possible
relationship. After watching again I wondered about the description of
Carter as a "companion". Whatever the relationship gay or otherwise it
was well done. Secondly, what Richie did was no different than what
Haresh did. Richie still has a heart (maybe it's a little rough around
the edges right now, though) If Carter had begged would Richie have
taken his head? Haresh is much more of a killer than Richie could ever
be. If Haresh had taken Richie's would Duncan not have hunted Haresh?
It an Immortal Thing. Loved the episode, love the "badass" Richie. But
we all know, that sooner or later, the Richie we all know and love will
be back. He just won't ever be "taking no s__t!"
CeKa
, tha;
Ghostdancer
Marina Frants <nny...@ny.ubs.com> wrote in article
<3263D8...@ny.ubs.com>...
snip --
> Marina Frants
> nny...@ny.ubs.com
> http://www.sff.net/people/FrantsDeCandido/
> ||
> ()###||//////////////////////////////////>>
> ||
>
When Richie was attacked and nearly killed by the man who had become the
center of his world, he had to confront the betrayal of his love by DM.
Remember, when Richie and Anne in a previous season, were saying goodbye to
DM at Charles deGualle in Paris, Richie said that he could kiss DM, but
someone might talk and DM blushed?
This exploration of feelings that one man may have for another man is
something you never see on any other TV programme and it will prove to be
very threatening to some men who have suppressed doubts about their
identity as to what it means to be a man.
Auntie Darling
In article <01bbbac4$b94b5960$1bf7...@Ghostdancer.earthlink.net> "Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> writes:
>.1155
Ah, nice to see that someone beat me to the possible explanation ;-)
This type of relationship was very common in training the Mamulukes, which had
many Northern European prisoners/slaves being raised to serve Allah in battle.
Usually trained from an early age, similar to the training of knights.
Possibly Haresh found Carter as a pre-Immortal and raised him.
The Crusader period would have been a fascinating time to have McLeod take
part in but, alas, he was born too late. The Final Conflict involving the
Holy Lands ended with the Turks consuming Constantinople in 1454 (?)
Maybe it could be someplace that Methos has memories of.
Auntie Darling, who finds Crusader history absolutely fascinating
kellogg
Ghostdancer (ghost...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Spoiler!
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: When Richie walked into the bar, I was so focused on Richie who was having
: a major mad on, that I didn't check out the other people in the bar except
: for the lesbian who was the arm wrestling bartender. In walks golden boy in
: shiny black leather and gives Richie the old buzz.
I am amazed that you can tell the sexual orientation of a person
entirely by occupation and hobbies. Not all tough women are attracted to
women.
: Richie, immediately picked a fight and golden boy Carter says something to
: the effect that he wasn't looking for that kind of head when he walked into
: the bar. That could have meant two things. One, a head on a beer, but the
: beer was being served in bottles, or, two, that he was looking for oral
: sex.
Sorry, you weren't paying attention. What golden boy said was that
the only kind of head he was looking for was on a beer. Both Richie and the
patron that lost to Delilah were drinking thier beers from glasses.
: In the flash back, Carter is so attuned to Haresh that he responds without
: a word need being said when he passes the sword to him.
Piffle. Last Saturday, at an SCA tourney, my new retainer figured
out by the third round when to hand me my sword. My wife, who I have been
married to for 10 years, isn't always that aware. Sleeping with someone
is not necessary to get a clue that a fight is about top begin.
By the fight with Graham, Carter had been squire to Haressh for
something like 500 years. If he couldn't learn to read Haressh's body
language in that time, he was a damned poor servant.
: Also, am I mistaken in thinking that Graham may have been Haresh's teacher
: at one time?
You are mistaken. It is quite evident that Haressh and Graham know
each other only by reputation, otherwise Graham wouldn't have to introduce
himself. It seems likely that Graham both knew that Haressh was looking for
him, and also knew that Haresh was probably better.
I must admit that I hate the presumption that straight men cannot
possibly stay together as friends. That the only reason a man can possibly
have for revenge revolves around sex. Bleah! While it wouldn`t bother me
if Haresh and Carter were in fact a gay couple. it does bother me that
the presumption is that men are incapable of devotion without sex.
C. Kevin Kellogg
Jean W. Williams
We have really strayed off topic, but I think the reason Richie picked a
fight with Carter was fairly clear. He was already set up as having been
so disillusioned with The Game because Dark Duncan had "turned" on him
that he had roamed the country cruisin' for a bruisin' and picking fights.
He shoots his mouth off in the bar and is challenged by a WOMAN. He is
arm-wrestling the woman when Carter walks in.
Distracted by "the buzz", he loses to a WOMAN.
Then Carter jokes jovially with THAT SAME WOMAN (even flirted I thought)
and she responds positively.
Did you see the really nasty looks he gives the WOMAN all the time he's
actually talking to/taunting Carter?
I saw it as a MALE EGO thing - show the WOMAN (and anybody else within
earshot/eyeshot) what a STUD he really is. Whip this pretty boy's a**.
Too much testosterone - too little brain.
Personally, I have never cared for this Richie character. He's a real
whiner most of the time - with a chip on his shoulder the size of Mt.
Everest. I keep hoping Daddy Duncan WILL beat the slop out of him and say
"get over it".
In the same episode we have Duncan feeling "humiliated" and needing to
recover his MALE EGO (excuse me, "dignity"), too.
But with maturity, Duncan seems to have learned that there are ways to go
about it, and then ways to go about it. I think the fact that he saw such
an excellent swordsman, (Ash?), in a position of asking for his life was a
good thing in Duncan's development. Just as it was good for Richie to see
Duncan have to ask for help/a favor.
--
Jean Williams
jqw...@is2.nyu.edu
Wade Pyro Boger
In article <01bbbac8$f3c7be40$1bf7...@Ghostdancer.earthlink.net> "Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> writes:
>Au contraire. You have made a fine definition of love of a man for a man.
>You assume that gays are not capable of such noble ideals--when it is quite
>the opposite.
I assume no such thing. Try to follow what I was saying without preassigning
predjudices.
What I was saying and still am saying is that through the entire show the
theme is
friendship-friendship-friendship-friendship-friendship-friendship-friendship.
Now, if we are to follow the theme through we must assume the relationship
between Harish and Carter is "friendship" and not "friends and lovers."
Also keep in mind there is no conclusive proof otherwise.
Queenie
> he even really noticed Carter's reluctance to fight, he probably
> dismissed is as an act -- this guy's just trying to get away so
> he can try and get me at a disadvantage later. I must get him
> before he gets me.
>
> Was Richie wrong to kill Carter? Yes. Was he evil? IMO, no.
> I think that deep down he knew he was doing wrong. He certainly
> did not strike me as a man at ease with himself. As he rebuilds
> his relationship with DM, he will probably return to something
> close to his last-season self, though he'll never be quite the
> same person. It'll be interesting to see how the character is
> developed in future episodes.
>
> Okay, rant over. That wasn't so bad now, was it?
> Marina Frants
> nny...@ny.ubs.com
> http://www.sff.net/people/FrantsDeCandido/
> ||
> ()###||//////////////////////////////////>>
> ||
If you believe that "there can be only one," it was not wrong for
Richie to kill Carter. That's what immortals do. He didn't shoot
him first and cut off his head. He didn't give him poison gas first
and then cut off his head. He didn't blind him with steam and then cut
off his head. He issued a challenge, they fought, Richie
prevailed.
And that, Charlie Brown, is what immortals are all about.
If you believe that "there can be only one."
Queenie
Regina orbis terrarum
Wade Pyro Boger
In article <01bbbac7$4076b400$1bf7...@Ghostdancer.earthlink.net> "Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> writes:
>When Richie walked into the bar, I was so focused on Richie who was having
>a major mad on, that I didn't check out the other people in the bar except
>for the lesbian who was the arm wrestling bartender. In walks golden boy in
>shiny black leather and gives Richie the old buzz.
>Richie, immediately picked a fight and golden boy Carter says something to
>the effect that he wasn't looking for that kind of head when he walked into
>the bar. That could have meant two things. One, a head on a beer, but the
>beer was being served in bottles, or, two, that he was looking for oral
>sex.
WHAT?!?! Where are you getting all this from? Deliah is a lesbian? Why?
because she likes to arm wrestle?
Might i point out that Carter explained his head comment. He was looking for
a beer.
>In the flash back, Carter is so attuned to Haresh that he responds without
>a word need being said when he passes the sword to him.
He was his squire. He was trained to know what Haresh wanted before he had to
ask for it. Plus, at this point they had been friends for 500 years! I think
they might have known each other pretty well by then.
> The shots of when
>Haresh and Carter are riding together that are riding close enough for the
>knees to make contact. Considering that they were riding in an open area
>there was no real need to ride that close, or was it ;-).
If they felt like talking to each other, yes.
kerowyn
eda...@cts.com wrote in article <53s9sj$5...@ordeal.cts.com>...
> In <53ptnq$c...@newsfeed.gil.net>, Lo...@gil.net (Logan) writes:
> >On the latest show that I saw tonight it was great to see homosexual
> >immortals show up on the show tonight. After Richie killed the black
> >immortal's lover (or companion as he reffered it to) the Black
> >immortals goes after Richie. Too bad he didn't kill Richie.
>
> I agree with the idea of killing Richie, the Wesley Crusher of
> immortals.
>
> However, there is no evidence that the characters were gay. They were
> friends, buddies, pals, comrades.
>
> Edmond Dantes
> eda...@cts.com
> PGP public key and resume (I'm always looking for work) are available at:
> http://www.free.cts.com/crash/e/edantes
>
>
>You people are mean. Riches a good character he was just being a jerk.
Ghostdancer
Auntie Darling <dte...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu> wrote in article
<dterry.44...@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>...
> In article <01bbbac4$b94b5960$1bf7...@Ghostdancer.earthlink.net>
"Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >.1155
> Ah, nice to see that someone beat me to the possible explanation ;-)
>
> This type of relationship was very common in training the Mamulukes,
which had
> many Northern European prisoners/slaves being raised to serve Allah in
battle.
> Usually trained from an early age, similar to the training of knights.
>
> Possibly Haresh found Carter as a pre-Immortal and raised him.
>
> The Crusader period would have been a fascinating time to have McLeod
take
> part in but, alas, he was born too late. The Final Conflict involving
the
> Holy Lands ended with the Turks consuming Constantinople in 1454 (?)
> Maybe it could be someplace that Methos has memories of.
>
> Auntie Darling, who finds Crusader history absolutely fascinating
>
>
Granted, Duncan is too young to have partaken in any of the
Crusades--Methos is old enough to have 'known' King David, Alexander and
Caesar ( to mention a few).
One of the most feared fighting forces (outside of the Mongol horde) of the
late middle ages were the Janisaries. This was a military corps set up by
the sultans of Turkey and consisted of men who were conscripted while quite
young from the various non-muslim subjects of the Ottoman Empire. They were
not allowed to have contact with women and as are result developed strong
homosexual relationships with their fellow soldiers. They eventually became
very powerful politically much like the praetorian guard of Rome, where the
deposed or set up sultans. The Janisaries were finally suppressed for
political corruption.
Ghostdancer
kellogg <kel...@rohan.sdsu.edu> wrote in article
<540tqi$2...@gondor.sdsu.edu>...
> Ghostdancer (ghost...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>
> : Spoiler!
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : >
>
> I am amazed that you can tell the sexual orientation of a person
> entirely by occupation and hobbies. Not all tough women are attracted to
> women.
>
True, but since this was a show with a very profound gay overtone to it, I
wanted to assume that the bartender was a lesbian, this being said in a
positive and proud manner--not pejoratively.
>
> Sorry, you weren't paying attention. What golden boy said was that
> the only kind of head he was looking for was on a beer. Both Richie and
the
> patron that lost to Delilah were drinking thier beers from glasses.
>
Apparently I should start taping the episodes again--I stand corrected.
> By the fight with Graham, Carter had been squire to Haressh for
> something like 500 years. If he couldn't learn to read Haressh's body
> language in that time, he was a damned poor servant.
>
> : Also, am I mistaken in thinking that Graham may have been Haresh's
teacher
> : at one time?
>
> You are mistaken. It is quite evident that Haressh and Graham know
> each other only by reputation, otherwise Graham wouldn't have to
introduce
> himself. It seems likely that Graham both knew that Haressh was looking
for
> him, and also knew that Haresh was probably better.
Again, I stand corrected. There was a referral by Graham that Ramairez had
been his teacher also--I think.
>
> I must admit that I hate the presumption that straight men cannot
> possibly stay together as friends. That the only reason a man can
possibly
> have for revenge revolves around sex. Bleah! While it wouldn`t bother
me
> if Haresh and Carter were in fact a gay couple. it does bother me that
> the presumption is that men are incapable of devotion without sex.
What bothers me is that men can be devoted to one another and the
relationship is not considered homosexual simply because there has been no
sexual activity. The sexual act does not necessarily define a man's
orientation--it is how he feels and thinks about another man or men that is
definitive.
Yours,
Ghostdancer
>
> C. Kevin Kellogg
>
adrian b penalo
: >On the latest show that I saw tonight it was great to see homosexual
: >immortals show up on the show tonight. After Richie killed the black
: >immortal's lover (or companion as he reffered it to) the Black
: >immortals goes after Richie. Too bad he didn't kill Richie.
: However, there is no evidence that the characters were gay. They were
: friends, buddies, pals, comrades.
Give me a break!!! OF COURSE THEY WERE ONLY BROTHERS IN ARMS, like Batman
& Robin, Kato and the Green Hornet, etc. This damn homosexuals and their
dirty sexual attrocities!!
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ /
/ Adrian Penalo (CYBORG) Florida International University (FIU) \
\ /
/ WWW -> http://www.fiu.edu/~apenal01 College of Engineering and Design \
\ E-Mail -> apen...@servax.fiu.edu Computer Engineering /
/ apen...@fiu.edu \
\ Miami, Florida (USA) /
/ \
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
cornw...@osu.edu
Now that Richie is suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, it will
take some time for him to recover. It is a shame that DM killed Sean Burns he
most certainly could have helped Richie through this ordeal. I am hoping that
his recovery doesn't take too long. Since Methos is a Doctor also maybe he
will be helping the Richie sort through it all.
I don't care to much for the "new Richie".
Just a few thoughts
Mary
Pickled
Randy Lai wrote:
>
> Dark...@ix.netcom.com (DarkScar) wrote:
>
> >head????.... Anyway... to support the idea of Hareesh being gay...
> >didn't the middle eastern men of 900 some odd years ago have a habit
> >of playing with young men in a most personal fasion??? Hmmmm????
>
> politically incorrect word "homophobe" and use it to threaten anyone who
> begs to differ, they seem to have no moral dilemma in shoving their
> men have a habit of playing with young men"? If I'm not mistaken, that's
> cultural caricature to the 1st degree.
Ghostdancer specifically said "middle eastern men of 900 some odd years ago", just as
you quoted in your post. This statement was based on history, not "pro-gay ideology".
What I'm wondering is, if the term "homophobe" is now politically incorrect, what would
you prefer? Close-minded? Prejudiced?
It didn't seem to me like Ghostdancer was trying to shove anything up people's noses (as
you accused in another post)...
Alice.
Regina Michelle Wilhelm
On 13 Oct 1996, Greg Novak wrote:
>
> In a previous article, Lo...@gil.net (Logan) says:
>
> >Spoiler
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >..
> >.
> >
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >
> >On the latest show that I saw tonight it was great to see homosexual
> >immortals show up on the show tonight. After Richie killed the black
> >immortal's lover (or companion as he reffered it to) the Black
> >immortals goes after Richie. Too bad he didn't kill Richie.
>
> If "leather boy" were gay, does that make Richie's murder of him a hate
> crime?
> --
> C'ya
> Greg N.
> Wikahsimwa Mozwa (Little Deer)
> http://www.prairienet.org/~gnovak1/homepage.html
Well, I feel a little better now. Seems that last night I had my
first Highlander dream, and there was a big battle scene, and Duncan and
Methos are fighting on one side, and there must have been someone else
there, but they run into Darius, who's fighting on the other side, and I
don't know, but I think it Darius' idea, and Duncan gives him a big fat
manly smooch, much to the schock of the fourth party. Then Adam does the
same thing, because after all, manly men can smooch in a brotherly way,
and the three of them go off together, leavign the fourth person there, I
think. Okay, so they weren't kissing because they LIKE liked each other,
but I still thought it was kinda strange.
I think this is what happens when you stay up late surfin' the
Highlander sites and a friend sends you the "are you a GUY?" letter, and
one of the questions asks if you think the only appropriate time to kiss
another guy is if you're Al Pacino and you have to tell your brother
that, for business reasons, you have to have him killed.
Or maybe it's the meds I'm on.
Sure thought it was a real episode, though....
Reggie :)
Picc Chick
Tuba Chick (Tuba Wooba)
Oregon Marching Band
Oregon Basketball Band
Oregon Wind Ensemble
EX-Uniform Manager, 1995-96 "No Raccoons"
"Do you think this is just a trumpet?"
"No, It's a bong!"
/|
D____________TTT______________/ |
/ |||| \ \ |
| |||| | \|
\____||||______/
-"Mr. B Natural," MST3K
"Why must they laugh at my mighty sword?"
"No, Mom, I wasn't playing with myself in the bathtub. I was
just cleaning it, and it went off."
"...But don't be readin' my thoughts between (7 and 8 p.m.).
That's time for Willie!"
Ghostdancer
>
> It didn't seem to me like Ghostdancer was trying to shove anything up
people's noses (as
> you accused in another post)...
>
>
> Alice.
>
Thank you Alice:
My prayer is: Dear Lord, protect me from the practitioners of your
religions. Amen!
michele cloward
michele cloward wrote:
>
> Martin Bosworth wrote:
> >
> > Mike Chary (fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
> > : noirage <noi...@datadepot.com> wrote:
> > : >Dear Highlanders!
> > : >
> > : >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
> > : >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
> > : >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
> >
> > : Bold. They were wimps. I don't even think they meant it to be taken that
> > : way. I won't settle for anything less than the word "love" being used.
> >
> > Mike, did I miss your election as Arbiter of Homosexual Innuendoes or some
> > such? *I* thought it was pretty clear that the two were in love. Clay's
> > rampage after Carter's death was as much proof as I needed.
> >
> > If we differ, it doesn't make me right or you wrong. It's simply up to the
> > individual. Besides, which do you prefer, this approach, or the "Let's hint
> > around, then drop it like a rock" approach prevalent in so many Tv shows and
> > comics today?
> >
> > : >The old saying 'Actions speak louder than words' did not totally apply
> > : >here; the words spoke very very loudly indeed. Direct quote: "...He was
> > : >my squire, my companion...".
> >
> > : "on hundreds of campaigns on five continents."
> >
> > : There was more after the buzz word "companions."
> >
> > So? They fought together, traveled together, and presumably lived together.
> > They could have been friends, lovers, both, or none. The point is Clay cared for Wellan
> > a great deal, and wanted Richie headless.
> >
> > Martin (wrath, taking it to the stage)
> > Bosworth
>
> I personally did not see them as gay. I saw that they were comrades,
> very close friends. After all 900 years is a long time. I think there
> was a love there but friendship.
>
> If Richie was beheaded in the way that Richie had beheaded this
> Immortal, I believe Duncan would have gone after that Immortal just as
> vengeful as Clay went after Richie.
> MHO:)
>
> Michele Cloward
> mi...@cut.net
I ment Harrish The guy after richie I'm so bad with names. was Harrish
his name?
Michele
Morey, Kathy M
Ghostdancer wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Snipping parts of the conversation for space
>
> ... but since this was a show with a very profound gay overtone to it, I
> wanted to assume that the bartender was a lesbian, this being said in a
> positive and proud manner--not pejoratively.
>
> Ghostdancer
>
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your above comment...I think as
many people *didn't* see the gay overtone as *did* see it...everybody
being entitled to their own interpretation, of course. I don't think we
can accept as canon that Haresh and Carter were lovers until/unless
someone from TPTB clarifies it. It was an excellent story either way,
in my opinion. (I re-watched the ep after reading other people's
comments, and still didn't see a lot of evidence either way...)
Personally, I saw them as friends only, and still felt that Haresh's
reactions to Carter's death rang completely true...he was enraged, he
wanted revenge, he was suffering from profound grief...sort of like Mac
when Darius was killed. (I know, Darius's death wasn't part of the Game
and so was more shocking, but Mac would probably have reacted as
strongly if Darius had been lured off holy ground and killed by an
immortal, just because of his love for the man, IMHO.)
Kathy
catcon
I didn't assume the bartender Delilah was a lesbian. Did you see the
look of astonishment on her face when Joe beat her in arm wrestling?
When he told her to skip the beer and let him ask her a question
instead, she grinned evilly like it might be more than information Joe
wanted. That was my take. Anyone else?
Connie
--
*****************************************************************************
Nip it! Nip it in the bud!
--Deputy Barney Fife
*****************************************************************************
Andrea Krause
On 15 Oct 1996 18:21:24 GMT, "Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>
>Spoiler!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>When Richie walked into the bar, I was so focused on Richie who was having
>a major mad on, that I didn't check out the other people in the bar except
>for the lesbian who was the arm wrestling bartender. In walks golden boy in
>shiny black leather and gives Richie the old buzz.
>Richie, immediately picked a fight and golden boy Carter says something to
>the effect that he wasn't looking for that kind of head when he walked into
>the bar. That could have meant two things. One, a head on a beer, but the
>beer was being served in bottles, or, two, that he was looking for oral
>sex.
>In the flash back, Carter is so attuned to Haresh that he responds without
>a word need being said when he passes the sword to him. The shots of when
>Haresh and Carter are riding together that are riding close enough for the
>knees to make contact. Considering that they were riding in an open area
>there was no real need to ride that close, or was it ;-).
>Also, am I mistaken in thinking that Graham may have been Haresh's teacher
>at one time?
>Ghostdancer
Um...where did the bartender being a lesbian come from? Did I miss
something or are you just making assumptions?
Andrea
michele cloward
MJordan104
Um? You don't care for the new Richie? Why? You think he should remain
stagnant and not grow from his experiences? Be like Kenny? If Dunkieboy
hadn't attacked him, Richie would still be "good'ol Richieboy" doing Mac's
errands for him, like buying horses and what-nots. The new and improved
Richie will not only be good for Richie but for Duncan.
Duncan may not have *wanted* to hurt Richie, but he did and he has to
accept full responsibility for his part in Richie's new behaviour. Yes,
Richie decided to go out there and "practice" but now that he's been
around a few years, Richie isn't likely to listen to Duncan quite to the
letter anymore, like he did in Under Color of Authority. Richie believed
in Duncan to a fault thinking that Duncan would never hurt him, that not
even a Dark Quickening would make Duncan come after him, but Richie was
wrong and now he knows better.
In the world of Immortality, nothing is easy, and Richie just learned the
most valuable of lessons Duncan could've thought him. In a Game where the
survival of the fittest is important, you can't let sentiments color your
decisions. If that be so, then Duncan would've let Sully go, he wouldn't
have killed Brian, he could've turned his back on Gabriel and all the
other Immortals he once called friends. What would Duncan have done, if
Connor had fallen to a Dark Q. and come after him? Um? When your
illusions have been shattered, you change for the worse or for the better.
You either lash out at the world, or you find a way to heal yourself.
You don't come out of a situation like Richie did and not have changed.
He never trusted anybody until Duncan came into his life. Now that's
gone. In a way, it's sad that their relationship has changed so much. I
liked the father/son thing, but that will never be again. But on another
note, I like the many, many changes their relationship has gone through.
Makes it more believable, I think.
I personally like the the new Richie. He was trained by the best, and can
hold his own against Immortals 900 years older than him. I did miss his
easy smile though, but got to see lots of it at the Con. <g>
Monica J.
mjord...@aol.com
================
Kids on relationships: When Is It Okay to Kiss Someone??
"You should never kiss a girl unless you have enough bucks to
buy her a big ring and her own VCR, 'cause she'll want to have
videos of the wedding."
-Allan, 10
Morey, Kathy M
Connie
I agree...she definitely looked interested in Joe...and she seems to
have good taste in men.
Kathy
Pickled
Morey, Kathy M wrote:
>
> catcon wrote:
> >R
E
P
L
A
C
I
N
G
T
H
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
> >
> > I didn't assume the bartender Delilah was a lesbian. Did you see the
> > look of astonishment on her face when Joe beat her in arm wrestling?
> > When he told her to skip the beer and let him ask her a question
> > instead, she grinned evilly like it might be more than information Joe
> > wanted. That was my take. Anyone else?
> > Connie
> > --
>
> Connie
>
> I agree...she definitely looked interested in Joe...and she seems to
> have good taste in men.
>
> Kathy
Thinking about it now, it definitely seems to me that there was a wee bit of playful
flirting going on between those two.
And yes, she definitely has good taste in men (even though I could do without the spikey
hair).
Alice.
Anne Gwin
In article <5448kr$5...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, Dayspring
<mmn...@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
> Please remember that not all people in a "group" are alike. I am a
> Christian. I do not hate people who are homosexuals. I do not feel any
> violence towards those people. I do not fear the members of humanity who
> have that orientation.
>
> To say that I as a Christian am judgemental, homophobic, or have any
> violent feelings towards people with that orientation, simply based on
> the fact that I am Christian is just as judgemental and prejudiced
> towards me.
Matt,
The problem here is that a few, narrow-minded, prejudiced, un-Christian
people have arrogated the term "Christian" to mean themselves and only
themselves. If you're not a fundamentalist, born-again, bible-thumping
jerk, you can't be Christian, according to them. And it's them that
control the religious right, the Christian Coalition, etc.--and get all
the media attention. Good Christians like you and me are stereotyped
because of the actions of the Immoral Minority.
If you have a problem with how people view Christians, go talk to your
local fanatical fundie. Argue with street preachers who spout hatred of
anybody different. And never, ever accept the labeling of a particularly
virulent subsect as "Christian" without loud, long argument.
Anne
who doesn't need to be born again,
because she got it right the first time.
BCC, Episcopal Church.
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (ag...@mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarla...@mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
"ZOG!!"--The Brady Bunch Tiki
Desi
It was wrong in that this is not the way Duncan taught him to play the game.
Name an episode where an immortal that views the game in this way was not evil.
I sure can't think of one.
Now, what bothered me the most about this episode and the new Richie was that,
at the cemetary when Clay was talking to Duncan about Carter, you could see that
Duncan seemed to show some remorse about what happened, he even offered to let
Clay walk away after he beat him. Richie didn't seem to show any remorse at
all.
I'm not one to always demand a happy ending or have everything resolved in
one hour. Richie's path back from the edge would make a great story arc. I
just wish they might have shown some hint that Richie might be rethinking his
"it's what the game is about" position.
- Desi
Mike Chary
>Mike Chary (fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: noirage <noi...@datadepot.com> wrote:
>: >Dear Highlanders!
>: >
>: >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked up
>: >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am very
>: >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
>
>: Bold. They were wimps. I don't even think they meant it to be taken that
>: way. I won't settle for anything less than the word "love" being used.
>
>Mike, did I miss your election as Arbiter of Homosexual Innuendoes or some
>such? *I* thought it was pretty clear that the two were in love. Clay's
>rampage after Carter's death was as much proof as I needed.
And I didn't. I get an opinion too, no?
>If we differ, it doesn't make me right or you wrong. It's simply up to the
Dyd I say anyone was wrong?
--
Court Philosopher and Barbarian, DNRC http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~fchary
"I bought the Star Trek chess set and the Civil War chess set. Now I have
the South fight the Klingons." -- Dave Spensley "The best argument against
democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
Dayspring
Pickled <pick...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>What I'm wondering is, if the term "homophobe" is now politically incorrect, what would
>you prefer? Close-minded? Prejudiced?
I just have one question, by homophobe, are you saying someone who
specifically fears people who are gay, or are you talking about anyone
who has a belief that homosexuality is wrong? If you are talking about
the former, then the term is correct, but if you are talking about the
latter, then it is being close-minded and prejudiced towards people who
do believe that it is wrong.
I do not fear people who are of homosexual orientation. I do not support
homosexuality. I don't really care if somebody I know is of homosexual
orientation, I don't think anything different of them. But I don't
support that part of them. You tell me, am I prejudiced? Am I
close-minded? Am I a homophobe?
My real point here is that believing that homosexuality is wrong alone,
does not make somebody close-minded, or prejudiced, and certainly not
homophobic. There is a difference.
A homophobic is someone who fears people of homosexual orientation. A
close-minded person is someone who declares outright that something is
right or wrong without thinking about it. A prejudiced person is someone
who thinks something about a person before they even know that person.
People who support homosexual orientations are not necessarily
"open-minded" or "non-prejudicial". These things are labels, and they
can fall on both sides of any argument.
I'm don't remember what the first person said, but this is just for all
people who are going to take part in this debate (on either side):
please be careful when you use labels, they can be just as true for any
side of any argument.
Matt
--
Dayspring |_______________________________
@XXXXXXXXXX||____________________________//
| mmn...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Jon Pertwee (1919-1996) Rest in Peace.
They fought like warrior-poets... they
fought like Scots...
Ghostdancer
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
> I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your above comment...I think as
> many people *didn't* see the gay overtone as *did* see it...everybody
> being entitled to their own interpretation, of course. I don't think we
> can accept as canon that Haresh and Carter were lovers until/unless
> someone from TPTB clarifies it. It was an excellent story either way,
> in my opinion. (I re-watched the ep after reading other people's
> comments, and still didn't see a lot of evidence either way...)
>
>
> Personally, I saw them as friends only, and still felt that Haresh's
> reactions to Carter's death rang completely true...he was enraged, he
> wanted revenge, he was suffering from profound grief...sort of like Mac
> when Darius was killed. (I know, Darius's death wasn't part of the Game
> and so was more shocking, but Mac would probably have reacted as
> strongly if Darius had been lured off holy ground and killed by an
> immortal, just because of his love for the man, IMHO.)
>
> Kathy
>
On re-watching it again a few minutes ago, I still hold to the strong
possibility of Haresh and Carter being more than just comrade in arms. At
Carter's funeral, where Haresh is mourning, he expresses his deep sense of
loss of a "companion". This expressed a sense of them being exclusive to
each other.
Granted, it was a very good episode and it was good to see a good beginning
of rapprochement amongst Joe, Richie and Duncan.
Ghostdancer
Dayspring
Please remember that not all people in a "group" are alike. I am a
Christian. I do not hate people who are homosexuals. I do not feel any
violence towards those people. I do not fear the members of humanity who
have that orientation.
To say that I as a Christian am judgemental, homophobic, or have any
violent feelings towards people with that orientation, simply based on
the fact that I am Christian is just as judgemental and prejudiced
towards me.
There is a reason the Bible says that "We have all sinned and fall short
of the glory of God". *We*, *all*, *fall short*. I am no better than
any other person on Earth, no matter their sins nor mine. To say
otherwise is just as much a sin.
Just remember, as all people who are of homosexual orientation are not
the same, neither are all practicioners of God's faiths, nor any other
"grouping" of people are the same.
Mike Chary
Greg Novak <gno...@prairienet.org> wrote:
>In a previous article, fch...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (Mike Chary) says:
>
>>Greg Novak <gno...@prairienet.org> wrote:
>>
>>spoilers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>So, I see two possible ways of reading this ep. 1.) Richie is now a
>>>cold-hearted murderer or 2.)Richie is a homophobe, and a cold-hearted
>>>murderer.
>>
>>Lest we get too terribly maudlin about Carter Wellman, he didn't mind
>>watching Haresh kill Graham despite Graham not wanting to fight.
>
>Richie new nothing of this when he fought Carter. In examing his moral
>character, it can not be taken into consideration, IMHO. Also, we knew
Of course it can. It demonstrates attitude. Carter believe fights were
inevitable. When would it have been okay for Richie to fight him? Only
when they were the last two left?
>>Richie didn't just suddenly *attack* Carter. He challenged him. Carter
>>accepted. *AND* Carter had every reason to believe he'd win.
>
>
>Now wait a minute. I may not pay close attention to detail all the time,
>but it seems to me that Carter clearly did not want to fight. He tried
No, he didn't. He gave Richie every opportunity to back down.
He, however, did not back down. That's an option if you don't want to
"stpe outside," no? Just don't.
>to end it before it got to far, and Richie just kept escalating it. He
>wanted to kill, just to kill. These are the motivations of an evil
Actually, no. I think he wanted to kill to a) get more powerful so that
b) Mac wouldn't be able to kill him.
>person. These are the kinda people that Duncan usually goes after.
>Let's not forgot that it was Carter who said something like, "You are not
>prepared to fight (or was it die) over a bad joke." Carter clearly did
You don't really want to lose your head over bad joke.
Attitude.
>not want to fight Richie, and would have ended it any second had Richie
>not been on the offensive.
He didn't have to leave the bar, get into his car, and drive after
Richie, especially when he was waiting for Haresh. He stood Haresh up to
go fight someone.
>>Challenges and fighting are part of what they do. Remember that Duncan
>>hasn't exactly been shy about challenging people like Xavier St. Cloud.
>
>Duncan challenges evil people.
Not always. Remeber Martin Hyde and Xavier (when he first encountered him
in North Africa when Xavier was really after Duncan's friend.) He didn't
know either of them. He was just young and full of vinegar.
> When Highlander degenerates into the good
>guys getting away with murder simply because its a game, then the show
>is entirely different from what it was before. Now it is sympathetic to
The entire premise is the challenges. Carter didn't have to accept.
>evil and not good. And, good no longer triumphs over evil, as a little
>13 year old boy used to believe.
Well, the little 13 year old boy is going to live forever if we wait for
Duncan to kill him :)
>>Also, immies in general are pretty damn short tempered from all I have seen.
>
>Certainly the evil ones are.>--
All of them, except Methos.
Amanda, Fitzcairn, Richie, Duncan, Conner. They all fight at the drop of
a hat.
Wade Pyro Boger
I'll admit, I haven't been following this thread completely, though I thikn I
CAN sum it up quite nicely:
Don't stereotypes just suck?
Thank you,
Pyro (the world's only sterotypical Wade Eric "Pyro" Boger, and I like it that
way!)
--
Wade "Pyro" Boger <WXB...@PSU.EDU>
_ Penn State University, Schuykill Campus
, __ ________H__________________________________________________
(@\\o\\=/=+=+=[] ^^^^^^^^^^^It's a kind of magic!^^^^^^^^^^^\
^-^-~~-~~~~~~~H~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ "No time for sanity, chum!"- The Tick
Mr. W.Y. Chan
Jennifer Walczak (THERE.CAN....@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: I think that all of you would be correct in saying that it would be nice
: to have gay immortals on Highlander, but I dought that was the case. In
: the past, the writers have taken chances by talking about
: contriversial(sorry if misspelled) issues, for example in season one when
: Duncan says (the indian you know).
: If the two men were lovers, I dought they would not have a problem
: stating it plainly rather than inferring it.
: I think it would be great for highlander to have a gay couple on the
: show, helping people to realize that homosexual people are not as some
: believe them to be, but they too can have meaningful, long term
: relationships. Television is one of the best ways to educate people
: these days. Hopefully Rysher will read this and agree.
Hi Jenny,
I've been flamed in the past for suggesting Ramirez, Connor, Duncan
and Methos as being gay in at least some part in their long life span and
how the actuall film or TV series gave that possibility depends how it could be
interpreted. Have you noticed Duncan had wept on more than a few occasion when
he had killed an old immie he had known to be close or very close with even
he had not seen him for the last 100 years.
Have you ever heard of "Zorro, the Gay Blade"?
Just in case you are wondering, I am not gay, I am not a supporter of gay right
but I am not against gays as long as they don't kiss or do anything on screen
while I am watching....:)
Wah.
Jean W. Williams
catcon (cat...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I didn't assume the bartender Delilah was a lesbian. Did you see the
: look of astonishment on her face when Joe beat her in arm wrestling?
Definitely. Astonishment and something like delight. But then again, I
still think Carter's bantering with her might be interpreted as
flirtatious, too!
Basically, I thought GENDER was at issue in this episode [i.e.,
"What constitutes 'male' in this culture? What constitutes 'female'
in this culture?"] rather than SEXUALITY, per se. And there were lots of
inversions playing with the issue.
--
Jean Williams
jqw...@is2.nyu.edu
M. Jenkins
"Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Spoiler!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>When Richie walked into the bar, I was so focused on Richie who was having
>a major mad on, that I didn't check out the other people in the bar except
>for the lesbian who was the arm wrestling bartender.
I have to go back and watch this one again. What makes you think that
the arm wrestling bartender is a lesbian? Is it that she's physically
strong? Is it that she's arm wrestling with guys? These things have
nothing to do with a person's sexual preference. Did she say or do
something else that clued you in. I think perhaps people are very
quickly jumping to conclusions here.
Mimo
**************************************************************
There is an art or, rather, a knack to flying.
The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground
and miss.
--Douglas Adams
Life, the Universe and Everything
**************************************************************
Karen Brown
>
>Yeah, that's why the fight bothered me so much. It was completely
>uneccessary. Richie acted totally evil here. I can't sympathize with
>him any more.
>
I sympathize with Richie differently now. Here is a Immie who feels every
friend betrayed him...going back to his "teacher" trying to take his head. I
don't understand why no one has explained to him what was going on there, but
his last sense of trust was gone.
Everyone Richie has trusted has either betrayed him or died. Being new at
this ng I don't know the name of immies or episodes, but he lost Tessa, the
immie played by Joan Jett who was just after Mac's head, the immie who Methos
killed in the end who was crazy when anyone left her, then there was Mac who
tried to take his head, and Joe who wouldn't lend him money to buy a sword to
defend himself. I would be bitter also, who said that immies didn't have
mental problems. Richie needs to resolve his anger at the world.
Karen
NEW WEBSITE for Beads and Findings! Visit:
http://www.fangz.com/~katia/main.htm
Kenneth Riggall
> >: >Well..well..well!!! I am very glad I was not the only one who picked
up
> >: >on the relationship between the two immortals; and, I agree, I am
very
> >: >very proud of Highlander for being that bold.
> >
BOLD?!?!?!? They never said anything about it! Thats not bold in my
opinion... Perhaps innuendo should be left at that... because it certainly
doesnt make any definative statements.. anymore than Amanda's supposed
lesbian tendancies... which are still unproven.
,
I'm still trying to decide who the Homophobes are, the people who deny it
exists, or those who see it everywhere?
bali...@inch.com
Clay and Wellman IMHO were lifelong companions and best friends, not
lovers. It's funny how people read different things into certain scenes
of "End of Innocence." Of course, Clay was mad at Richie; look how
Duncan reacted when Darius was killed. Were Duncan and darius lovers?
I don't think so.
One final thought. After fighting together on numerous campaigns
together, you'd thing that Wellman would be able to take out a newbie
like Richie fairly easily.
Jon B.
Ghostdancer
M. Jenkins <mjen...@shentel.net> wrote in article
<5453t5$8...@head.globalcom.net>...
> "Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Spoiler!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >When Richie walked into the bar, I was so focused on Richie who was
having
> >a major mad on, that I didn't check out the other people in the bar
except
> >for the lesbian who was the arm wrestling bartender.
>
> I have to go back and watch this one again. What makes you think that
> the arm wrestling bartender is a lesbian? Is it that she's physically
> strong? Is it that she's arm wrestling with guys? These things have
> nothing to do with a person's sexual preference. Did she say or do
> something else that clued you in. I think perhaps people are very
> quickly jumping to conclusions here.
>
>
>
> Mimo
>
Mimo, is it true or not that you presume that being lesbian is a bad thing?
The comment was meant as positive thing--a proud thing that they were
portraying someone who might be a lesbian.
Ghostdancer
Ghostdancer
> : If the two men were lovers, I dought they would not have a problem
> : stating it plainly rather than inferring it.
The assumption then being that only homosexual couples must declare
themselves, while heterosexual couples need not bother..
> Hi Jenny,
Snip
> Just in case you are wondering, I am not gay, I am not a supporter of gay
right
> but I am not against gays as long as they don't kiss or do anything on
screen
> while I am watching....:)
>
>
>
> Wah.
Oh, I see. Then gays have to put up with striates kissing and doing other
things that are best left in the privacy of the bed room. And, oh yes, with
all of the disgusting things one sees on telly, why would two men/women
kissing be so terrible? At least they are not committing mass murder or
blowing whole cities to smithereens.
Make love, not mayhem.
Neil Kothari
Ghostdancer wrote:
>
> The assumption then being that only homosexual couples must declare
> themselves, while heterosexual couples need not bother..
The heterosexual couple wouldn't have to bother because they would be
able to hug and kiss on TV, no?
> > Hi Jenny, Just in case you are wondering, I am not gay, I am not a supporter of gay
> > right but I am not against gays as long as they don't kiss or do anything on
> > screen while I am watching....:)
> Oh, I see. Then gays have to put up with straights kissing and doing other
> things that are best left in the privacy of the bed room. And, oh yes, with
> all of the disgusting things one sees on telly, why would two men/women
> kissing be so terrible? At least they are not committing mass murder or
> blowing whole cities to smithereens.
> Make love, not mayhem.
Bravo! I'm in full agreement with ya.
--
Neil Kothari -- NK...@worldnet.att.net -- koth...@umdnj.edu
New Jersey Medical School Class of 2000
Neil's World -- http://www.umdnj.edu/~kotharne/
An Excess of INXS -- http://www.columbia.edu/~sbs34/inxs.html
Ghostdancer
Dayspring <mmn...@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote in article
<5448kr$5...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
As I said, Dear Lord, protect me from the practitioners of your religions.
I have yet to meet anyone who says that they are Christian who practices
what Jesus is supposed to have preached. Christianity has a history of
waging war and genocide. Millions have died fighting over the who had the
right to claim the Prince of Peace as their own. I find nothing endearing
or good about Christianity or any other organized religion. They all
propagate hate and ignorance when the message was supposed to be
brotherhood with love and forgiveness.
ceka
In article <5448kr$5...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, mmn...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
says...
|_______________________________
>
@XXXXXXXXXX||____________________________//
> | mmn...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
>
> Jon Pertwee (1919-1996) Rest in Peace.
>
> They fought like warrior-poets... they
> fought like Scots...
>
>
Are you implying that people of diverse sexual orientation are not
practitioners of God's faith?
CeKa
Donna Cuzzort
wxb...@psu.edu (Wade "Pyro" Boger) wrote:
>I'll admit, I haven't been following this thread completely, though I thikn I
>CAN sum it up quite nicely:
You can and you did quiet nicely.
Donna
Martin Bosworth
Greg Novak (gno...@prairienet.org) wrote:
: >Um, I heard that part a little differently. When DM said, "You had no
: >quarrel with Graham Ash" and Clay said "So, you condone what he did",
: >*I* thought Clay was referring to what *Rich* did, i.e., killed Carter
: >for no particular reason. So, when DM answered, "We fight to the death,
: >that's what we do", I took it as him refusing to condemn Rich for
: >playing the Game, in a way DM personally thinks is wrong, in front of
: >Clay, because that's how Clay was playing the Game when he took Ash.
: Yeah, I think I was way off on my interpretation of those words. But, I
: still think Richie murdered "leatherboy" for no good reason. Only and
: evil reason.
Remember, the writers wanted to show us that a) Richie isn't taking shit from
anyone anymore, and b) that he can back up his words (mostly) if necessary.
What better way than to have him pick a fight with an immortal--something
Duncan only does in extreme circumstances-- and win? Then,
to have us find out that Carter was nearly 1000 years old--older than some of
*Duncan*'s foes over the years--and an experienced fighter?
: >> >Richie didn't just suddenly *attack* Carter. He challenged him. Carter
: >> >accepted. *AND* Carter had every reason to believe he'd win.
: >>
: >> Now wait a minute. I may not pay close attention to detail all the time,
: >> but it seems to me that Carter clearly did not want to fight. He tried
: >> to end it before it got to far, and Richie just kept escalating it. He
: >> wanted to kill, just to kill. These are the motivations of an evil
: >> person. These are the kinda people that Duncan usually goes after.
: >> Let's not forgot that it was Carter who said something like, "You are not
: >> prepared to fight (or was it die) over a bad joke." Carter clearly did
: >> not want to fight Richie, and would have ended it any second had Richie
: >> not been on the offensive.
: >
: >I agree here...I think Carter would have let the whole thing go at any
: >time if Rich would have allowed it.
: Yeah, that's why the fight bothered me so much. It was completely
: uneccessary. Richie acted totally evil here. I can't sympathize with
: him any more.
We can't judge Richie's actions by human standards. He's an Immortal, who
lives with the knowledge that others--many of whom are stronger, smarter, and
better fighters--will be hunting for him. Certainly, he was heartbroken over
Duncan's assault on him, and paranoid that he might come after him again. His
actions aren't evil, IMHO, but confused, and possibly sociopathic, NOT
psychopathic.
Besides, if the episode's coda was any indication, Richie may have calmed down
a tad. We'll see how his maturation progresses.
Martin (wrath: Richie Ryan *still* rules)
Bosworth
Brian Kelly Moynihan
I beg to differ. The very term 'homosexual' belays that there is sexual
interest, if not activity. Therefore, it is only applied to those kinds of
relationships.
--
Kel
"..it also left a man's decapitated body, lying on the floor next to his
own severed head. A
head which at this time, has no name..."
"I know his name..."
Ghostdancer <ghost...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<01bbbaed$5a880620$eff6...@Ghostdancer.earthlink.net>...
> What bothers me is that men can be devoted to one another and the
> relationship is not considered homosexual simply because there has been
no
> sexual activity. The sexual act does not necessarily define a man's
> orientation--it is how he feels and thinks about another man or men that
is
> definitive.
> Yours,
> Ghostdancer
>
> >
> > C. Kevin Kellogg
> >
>
Wade Pyro Boger
In article <01bbbc73$0c800cc0$0d24...@Ghostdancer.earthlink.net> "Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> writes:
>As I said, Dear Lord, protect me from the practitioners of your religions.
>I have yet to meet anyone who says that they are Christian who practices
>what Jesus is supposed to have preached. Christianity has a history of
>waging war and genocide. Millions have died fighting over the who had the
>right to claim the Prince of Peace as their own. I find nothing endearing
>or good about Christianity or any other organized religion. They all
>propagate hate and ignorance when the message was supposed to be
>brotherhood with love and forgiveness.
Don't confuse the religion with the practitioners of the religion.
Just a thought.
Pyro
Dayspring
"Ghostdancer" <ghost...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Dayspring <mmn...@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote in article
><5448kr$5...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
>> Christian. I do not hate people who are homosexuals. I do not feel any
>> violence towards those people. I do not fear the members of humanity who
>
>> have that orientation.
>>
>> To say that I as a Christian am judgemental, homophobic, or have any
>> violent feelings towards people with that orientation, simply based on
>> the fact that I am Christian is just as judgemental and prejudiced
>> towards me.
>>
>> There is a reason the Bible says that "We have all sinned and fall short
>> of the glory of God". *We*, *all*, *fall short*. I am no better than
>> any other person on Earth, no matter their sins nor mine. To say
>> otherwise is just as much a sin.
>>
>> Just remember, as all people who are of homosexual orientation are not
>> the same, neither are all practicioners of God's faiths, nor any other
>> "grouping" of people are the same.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>I have yet to meet anyone who says that they are Christian who practices
>what Jesus is supposed to have preached. Christianity has a history of
>waging war and genocide. Millions have died fighting over the who had the
>right to claim the Prince of Peace as their own. I find nothing endearing
>or good about Christianity or any other organized religion. They all
>propagate hate and ignorance when the message was supposed to be
>brotherhood with love and forgiveness.
>
I feel sorry for you then. I am sorry that you have had so many bad
experiences with Christians. I must say though, don't confuse
Christianity with "Christians".
Christians, like all human kind, has a history of waging war and
genocide. Christianity is not a physical thing. Christianity is nothing
but good. Christians, like all humans have faults, and sin, and fall
short of goodness. Don't blame Christ for our sins. He died to save us
from them, but we have free will, and it is us as humans that do evil,
not a concept like Christianity. Christianity can't DO anything.
Christians, and all humans sin. It is unfortunate that those meetings
you have had are bad ones. I'm truly sorry for that.
However, you've said "They all propagate hate and..." How on earth can
you write about stereotypes and hatred, and then turn around and show the
same attitude towards Christians as a whole. "All" is as absolute as it
gets. Do you say that about me then? Am I ignorant? Do I spread hate?
Either way you answer, you can have _NO_ idea of who I am. You only know
me by what I've written, and looking back at it, I don't recall having
_ever_ written anything meant to be hateful, spitefull, or ignorant. I
may have inadvertantly, but _never_ on purpose.
But I _am_ a Christian. I try my best, but I am no better than _any other
human on earth_. I try to follow Christ, but I, like all others *will*
and *do* fall short. But I try. Does that make me ignorant and hateful?
You said all... do you mean it? Do you say the same of me? I'm part of
the all you speak of, am I the same?
Don't absolutes suck? Don't labels suck? Just remember, to say that all
Christians are something is just the same as saying all people of any
particular sexual orientation, or all people with one color skin or
another, and it is just as much prejudice and ignorance.
You say the message of Christianity is supposed to be love and
forgiveness. You say the Christians you know don't follow that. Then I
say to you, you follow it. You become the Christian that follows Christ.
You seem to think that _Christ's_ message was good, but that individual
Christians have gotten the message wrong. So, follow Christ's message.
I don't claim to know the mind of God. I can't judge you or any other,
and I try my best not to do so. Don't judge me either. Just as you tell
one person to have an open mind about people who are homosexual, you
cannot turn around and say that "all Christians" are one way or another.
That's hypocrisy, just as bad as the hypocrisy the Christians you have
met have practiced.
God bless you. By His will, may you meet Christians who are true to His
teachings.
Matt, who wants love and brotherhood, and wishes the same for all.
Dayspring
> Are you implying that people of diverse sexual orientation are not
> practitioners of God's faith?
>
> CeKa
No, never. I didn't imply anything in what I said. All that I said
was outright. Simply put, for the earlier poster (who had the little
prayer for God to protect him/her from the practitioners of His
faiths), I simply said that all religious people, along with any
other type of person should not be stereotyped because of a group
that they "belong" to. That prayer _does_ imply that all of God's
faithful hate or are violent towards people who happen to be of
homosexual orientation, and I was saying otherwise.
Matt
Ghostdancer
Dayspring <mmn...@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote in article
<54716t$i...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
Please Dear Lord, protect me from the followers of your religions. Amen. In
other words, leave me alone. Mind your own business. Your religion only
applies to you and your fellow confessors.
The people who wrote the Bill of Rights made one small grammatical error.
Instead of freedom of religion, it should have read, freedom from religion.
Ghostdancer
Ghostdancer
Brian Kelly Moynihan <Tra...@moynihan.agn.net> wrote in article
<01bbbc9c$8dbb4100$2c0b...@Mufasa.AGN.NET>...
> I beg to differ. The very term 'homosexual' belays that there is sexual
> interest, if not activity. Therefore, it is only applied to those kinds
of
> relationships.
>
Are you speaking from experience or just conjecture? If it is just
conjecture, then perhaps you should examine why you have spent some time
arriving at your conclusion. If it is from experience, I hope you and your
partner enjoyed one another.
Ghostdancer
Sue & Mil Garrett
In <wxb106.50...@psu.edu> wxb...@psu.edu (Wade "Pyro" Boger)
writes:
>I'll admit, I haven't been following this thread completely, though I
thikn I
>CAN sum it up quite nicely:
>
>
>Thank you,
>Pyro (the world's only sterotypical Wade Eric "Pyro" Boger, and I like
it that
>way!)
> Wade "Pyro" Boger <WXB...@PSU.EDU>
> _ Penn State University, Schuykill Campus
> , __ ________H__________________________________________________
>(@\\o\\=/=+=+=[] ^^^^^^^^^^^It's a kind of magic!^^^^^^^^^^^\
>^-^-~~-~~~~~~~H~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~ "No time for sanity, chum!"- The Tick
Yes they suck BIG TIME.
From an atheist who doesn't fall into the "atheists hate all religions"
stereotype, and a radical-feminist who doesn't fall into the "feminists
hate all men" stereotype.
Barbara Garrett
Sue & Mil Garrett
>Please Dear Lord, protect me from the followers of your religions.
Amen. In
>other words, leave me alone. Mind your own business. Your religion
only
>applies to you and your fellow confessors.
>The people who wrote the Bill of Rights made one small grammatical
error.
>Instead of freedom of religion, it should have read, freedom from
religion.
>Ghostdancer
>
other words, for both sides, religious and non, to get past the
differences and realize that life is more than one God, more than one
rigth (as in correct)."
I realize that makes no sense. Lets put it this way: We are all
human, we all have to live on this planet TOGETHER, and the only thing
we can do to head into whatever future we may have is to accept
different ways of living.
And yes that includes those of us who get sick of people telling us
that a deity who has nothing to do with our lives have to accept that
people will do that until they, too, get the clue that their God is not
our God.
Barbara Garrett
Wade Pyro Boger
>>Please Dear Lord, protect me from the followers of your religions.
>Amen. In
>>other words, leave me alone. Mind your own business. Your religion
>only
>>applies to you and your fellow confessors.
>>The people who wrote the Bill of Rights made one small grammatical
>error.
>>Instead of freedom of religion, it should have read, freedom from
>religion.
>No kidding. Or maybe it should have read "freedom of religion, in
>other words, for both sides, religious and non, to get past the
>differences and realize that life is more than one God, more than one
>rigth (as in correct)."
>I realize that makes no sense. Lets put it this way: We are all
>human, we all have to live on this planet TOGETHER, and the only thing
>we can do to head into whatever future we may have is to accept
>different ways of living.
>And yes that includes those of us who get sick of people telling us
>that a deity who has nothing to do with our lives have to accept that
>people will do that until they, too, get the clue that their God is not
>our God.
Hrm. I'm gonna try to defend what Matt was trying to say. What I got out of
it was not so much "you must follow our way and stuff," in fact, kinda the
opposite. What, I THINK, he was trying more to say is follow your own way,
for one, and more importantly, don't damn all Christians for the past actions
of other Christians.
Granted, I may be wrong. What Matt might have been really trying to say was
"eat more canned peas." But that's what I got out of it.
Did you all ever see the movie Gettysburg? There's a wonderful scene in it
where Jeff Daniels and another guy, I forget his name, are talking and
basically the gist of it is "Any man who judges by the group is a p-wit"
(direct quote). You must judge people one at a time, and not by what others
like them have done.
Yeesh. This group is getting far too deep. Can't we go back to the butt
threads again?
Pyro
Wade Pyro Boger
>Yes they suck BIG TIME.
>From an atheist who doesn't fall into the "atheists hate all religions"
>stereotype, and a radical-feminist who doesn't fall into the "feminists
>hate all men" stereotype.
That's it! I think I'm starting a campaign! It'll be called:
"Be the stereo-typical YOU"
DON'T let them put you in a stereotype!
DON'T let them classify you by a group!
Make it so all they can say about you is that "Well, you're definately....you."
We'll put it on T-shirts! We'll....well, I can't afford that. But I will put
it on my sig file.