Do Immortals need to sleep?
Kal Tar Rehman
then it would seem logical that they would shake off any fatigue
every few minutes as well. This would mean they don't need sleep.
Perhaps there is some provision for this in the "rules" of Highlander?
Does anyone know have any insight regarding this point?
Apologies if this is a FAQ.
Kal Tar Rehman.
Highlanderfanlander
I have insights all over the place. Duncan MacLeod definitely needs sleep.
In Dramatic License, we see him lying there snoring his head off as Amanda
tries to wake him for some lovin'. There's another episode in which Duncan
gets extremely sleep-deprived due to nightmares <induced by another
Immortal>, and he is so desperate for sleep that he downs a whole bottle of
pills that Dr Anne gave him. In Forgive Us Our Trespasses, Amanda wakes
Methos and he's not at all pleased about it. In the episode where Richie is
being chased by cops, he goes to Duncan's barge pleading that he hasn't
slept in a long time ... he lies on Duncan's couch, almost ready to fall
asleep, and the cops come.
Immortals seem to require sleep just as much as anyone else.
Jerri
Lily A
> Jerri
One of the most effective modes of torture is sleep deprivation,
specifically, dreams depravation. If you deprive a person of dreaming
(wake that person every time he/she start dreaming), the person would
start hallucinating after a day or two, will tell you everything you
need and want to know, and most likely lose his/her sanity for good!...
So sleep is not just a rest for the body, it is foremost a rest for our
brain... I guess there are so many examples of immies that lost their
sanity, that we can be quite sure that their healing powers don't apply
to their brains!
LilyA <No, I never worked as a torturer! My mom is a psychologist [which
is, of course, some modern form of a inquisition confessioner- but
that's besides the point], and sometimes I do listen to what she
says...>
-
John A. Biltz
Highlanderfanlander wrote in message
<01be05a3$1e18c320$7e04...@skynet.sky.net>...
>Jerri
Why wouldn't they need sleep? Sleep is needed at least as much for the mind
as the body. If forced to stay up for several days the mind is what crashes
first not the body.
I was Death, Death on a Moose.
Like you said I go with the moose
Ah, the passion of moose
Highlanderfanlander
John A. Biltz <bilt...@cyberhighway.net> wrote
> as the body. If forced to stay up for several days
> the mind is what crashes
> first not the body.
My mind crashes about about 22 hours and it's not pretty. It's awfully darn
funny, but it's not pretty. It does recover a couple hours later and it's
good to go for a while longer ... but for a while there, things get very
interesting.
Jerri
William Armstrong
>
> > Immortals seem to require sleep just as much as anyone else.
> > Jerri
>
> specifically, dreams depravation. If you deprive a person of dreaming
> (wake that person every time he/she start dreaming), the person would
> start hallucinating after a day or two, will tell you everything you
> need and want to know, and most likely lose his/her sanity for good!...
> So sleep is not just a rest for the body, it is foremost a rest for our
> brain... I guess there are so many examples of immies that lost their
> sanity, that we can be quite sure that their healing powers don't apply
> to their brains!
Although I agree with everything that's been said here (in the other
posts about Immortals needing sleep as well), it's my personal opinion
that they shouldn't need it, logically. (Now, using "logic" this way
might not seem so logical, but we're talking about immortals here,
so...) Anyway, it seems to me that the healing abilities of an
immortals should apply to the mind/brain. A few years ago I read Anne
Rice's "Ramses the Damned", which I liked only for its decriptions of
Ramses' immortality, and not the plot, which was largely cheap romance.
Ramses' immortality has to do with an elixer - a potentially cheesy
concept, but it's handled well - which works via the sun. After taking
it, he requires no sleep, and no pain stays with him for very long. The
effects of the elixer extend to his mind. Emotional pain does not stay
long with him. Events grow emotionally distant very quickly. His brain
also does not need sleep - it "heals" or regenerates in this way,
throwing off the need, or in fact throwing it off so completely that the
"need" never presents itself. His mind renews itself as constantly as
does his body; as his body is immune to pain, fatigue, and damage, so is
his mind.
This is the way I see the immortality of HL immortals - sort of. In HL
immortals, the sun is of course not their source of power. I see them
as "feeding" off the Quickening, although this energy is not reduced by
the feeding. They "run" on the Quickening energy, and therefore would
not need sleep, or, really, food as fuel, either, though like Ramses
they could enjoy both if they wished. (This would not mean they would
have unlimited stamina.)
Anyway, this is, of course, not the way of the things in HL universe,
and JMHO.
Paige Foster
> If immortals can be revitalised so soon after injuries are suffered
> then it would seem logical that they would shake off any fatigue
> every few minutes as well. This would mean they don't need sleep.
> Perhaps there is some provision for this in the "rules" of Highlander?
> Does anyone know have any insight regarding this point? Apologies if
> this is a FAQ.
>
> Kal Tar Rehman.
It looks like you're seeing a lack of sleep as a sort of injury that must
be healed. I see it as a form of starvation. If someone goes without
food, hunger isn't something that the body "heals." Food is the body's
fuel, and is necessary for it to keep functioning. Same with sleep. It
fuels the mind.
That's how I see it, anyway. :)
Paige
Froot Loop
a.k.a. "F.F. Calliope"
Amazonian Ambassador to the MBB (Semper Ubi Sub Ubi)
P'Athos, Hetskateer Extraordinaire
The Morrigan and Dungeon Mistress to the Chimeras
Online Art Gallery: http://home.earthlink.net/~morrigan/
John A. Biltz
Paige Foster wrote in message <363E243B...@earthlink.net>...
>Kal Tar Rehman wrote:
>
>> If immortals can be revitalised so soon after injuries are suffered
>> then it would seem logical that they would shake off any fatigue
>> every few minutes as well. This would mean they don't need sleep.
>> Perhaps there is some provision for this in the "rules" of Highlander?
>> Does anyone know have any insight regarding this point? Apologies if
>> this is a FAQ.
>>
>> Kal Tar Rehman.
>
>It looks like you're seeing a lack of sleep as a sort of injury that must
>be healed. I see it as a form of starvation. If someone goes without
>food, hunger isn't something that the body "heals." Food is the body's
>fuel, and is necessary for it to keep functioning. Same with sleep. It
>fuels the mind.
>
>That's how I see it, anyway. :)
>
>Paige
Sleep is not really understood. I suffer from a type of sleep ailment
myself so I always catch anything on the TV that deals with it. What the
mind needs from sleep is not rest. You can get all the regular sleep you
want but what really counts is REM sleep. The deepest part of sleep named
for Rapid Eye Movement. During that part of sleep you do not rest at all.
Your brain is running like mad. Often your legs start moving like they are
running. Why we need it is unknown, but you need it like you need water.
Are you a Christian or do you paint yourself blue and bay at the moose.
Watchadoin Moose
Its Mooseday, he doesn’t take heads on Mooseday.
John A. Biltz
William Armstrong wrote in message <363E23...@sympatico.ca>...
(Rubbing my hands together with glee, it has been weeks since last I argued
with William) We know their minds do not function that way. They are
subject to delusions and other mind ailments. If they were not subject to
these things then do you think there could be a Kronos, Kern or Kurgan they
were mad as hatters. There was even a split personality. In that same ep
the kimmie was completely fruit loops (psychological technical term there,
do not let it throw you) There never would have been a dark quickening. If
the mind healed the way you said it did in The Mummy (did not care for that
one) then they would lack passion and fury, madness and the thirst for
vengeance. Where would we be then. There never would have been a show.
John A. Biltz
RebeccaMW wrote in message <19981102231002...@ng135.aol.com>...
>>If the mind healed the way you said it did in The Mummy (did not care for
that
>>one) then they would lack passion and fury, madness and the thirst for
>vengeance.
>
>>
>
>Surely you are not saying that a thirst for vengeance is a sign of mental
>illness? No, it could not be..... for that would mean...... No, it could
not
>be.
>
>Rebecca( does need sleep. Do mooses sleep? )
>
Yes but they have really funny looking pillows.
RebeccaMW
>one) then they would lack passion and fury, madness and the thirst for
vengeance.
>
John,
Surely you are not saying that a thirst for vengeance is a sign of mental
illness? No, it could not be..... for that would mean...... No, it could not
be.
Rebecca( does need sleep. Do mooses sleep? )
my strategy is to make enough mention of mooses on the ng, that they have to
let me be a macmooser.
Lily A
> >
> >Rebecca( does need sleep. Do mooses sleep? )
> >
> Yes but they have really funny looking pillows.
>
John,
Since you are a man, I can understand how you would make such a mistake
as assuming that mooses sleep with their head *on* a pillow.
From long observations during the sixties of teenager girls who were
concerned about ruining the bee hive hairdo, one can assume that mooses
sleep with their head actually hanging OUT of their bed...
LilyA < I know several women who were teenagers during the sixties...
amazingly they were not long term affected from this peculiar sleeping
habit! >
---
The writer of this Email would like to assure the readers that no women
or mooses were hurt in the production of this Email.
--
********************************************************************************
Quote of the month:
=====================
"Education is an admirable thing. But it is well to remember from time
to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught."
Oscar Wilde
************************************************************************
William Armstrong
Yeah, I've missed it too. ;-)
>We know their minds do not function that way. They are subject to >delusions and other mind ailments. If they were not subject to these >things then do you think there could be a Kronos, Kern or Kurgan they
>were mad as hatters.
Hm... I'm not sure that's really the same thing. I mean, I'm not
saying their minds _do_ work the way I said, but even if they did,
madness would not really be something that could be healed. The term
itself is not very accurate or description. Yeah, I know, it's pretty
obvious Kronos, Kern, and the Kurgan were mad. As Rachel said, "The
endless killing has driven him mad". Particularly in the cases of
Kronos and the Kurgan, their madness would have come about partly from
the millenia of killing and being dedicated to killing, and partly from,
perhaps, a chemical defect that, it seems, produces psychotics. If we
go by the movie rules, it would seem that a chemical defect would be
corrected. By the series rules, no. But it is not always that. We
don't know anything about the upbringing of Kronos, but the Kurgan's
mistreatment by his father would have produced a psychotic in anyone.
If the minds of HL immortals worked as I suggested they should (as in
"Ramses the Damned"), while the emotions of that mistreatment would fade
rapidly, but the effect would remain. It's all about conditioning.
That and the centuries of killing would condition him a certain way. I
don't think that any sort of "mental healing" ability would wash it
away. If that was the case, it would probably produce even worse
monsters who, unable to feel "negative" emotions, would be almost
completely amoral; freed from any sort of guilt (and I can't believe
that the Kurgan or Kronos would be entirely free of it) or pain (again,
the same).
Well, I did say "it's my personal opinion that they *shouldn't* need
it". I agree that from what we've seen in the movies and in the TV
series that this is not the case. I just think it should be the case.
It seems to me that the healing abilities of the body would apply to the
mind. Even if they would still require sleep, they might at least need
less of it. They might need sleep as we do, but less of it.
> There was even a split personality. In that same ep
> the kimmie was completely fruit loops (psychological technical term > there, do not let it throw you)
Yeah, that psychological mumbo-jumbo can be pretty confusing. :)
If the mind healed the way you said it did in The Mummy (did not care
for that one)
I didn't like the story, but didn't you find the concept of Ramses'
immortality interesting? (Although his having the sun as his source of
power, while the opposite of her vampire characters, reminded me
Superman!)
There never would have been a dark quickening. If the mind healed the
way you said it did in The Mummy (did not care for that one) then they
would lack passion and fury, madness and the thirst for vengeance.
Where would we be then. There never would have been a show.
If I remember rightly, part of the "curse" that "damned" Ramses was a
loss of this passion. The world to him became "dreamlike". He was
disassociated from it. He no longer thought like a mortal. That's how
immortals should be - like demi-gods. Now, I know MacLeod has stressed
it again and again that they are not gods, never were, and should never
pretend to be. But they are like demi-gods, at least like those of
Greek mythology, where male demi-gods are great warriors (like Heracles
or Achilles) and female demi-gods (like Helen of Troy) were
extraordinarily beautiful. This takes away from the human aspect most
people here probably watch it for (that and seeing MacLeod takes his
shirt off - or seeing that bath scene (joke)), but still, there you have
it. I think Methos is a bit like this. Still a man, still "just a
guy", but more than that, and weary from the endless centuries. (As
Tolkien says in The Silmarillion of the Elves: (paraphrase): "...unless
one grow weary of ten thousand centuries ... they die not till the world
dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief".) But, then, that's
cleary not, from what we see in the movies and the TV series, how the
minds of Immortals function. Just an idea on how I think they should.
P.S. My apologies for rambling. I think I may have lost myself there...
Ecotrekker
>
>let me be a macmooser.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "macmooser"?
Catherine
--------------------------------------------
Old Chinese curse - May you live in interesting times.
Cynergy St. Cloud
>
> John A. Biltz wrote:
>
> > >
> > >Rebecca( does need sleep. Do mooses sleep? )
> > >
> >
>
> John,
> Since you are a man, I can understand how you would make such a mistake
> as assuming that mooses sleep with their head *on* a pillow.
>
> From long observations during the sixties of teenager girls who were
> concerned about ruining the bee hive hairdo, one can assume that mooses
> sleep with their head actually hanging OUT of their bed...
>
> LilyA < I know several women who were teenagers during the sixties...
> amazingly they were not long term affected from this peculiar sleeping
> habit! >
>
> ---
> The writer of this Email would like to assure the readers that no women
> or mooses were hurt in the production of this Email.
>
That was definitly an interesting period for fashion.... reminded me of
the Elizabethen period when women would wear enormous wigs.... makes me
glad I'm not a woman...
Cyn
William Armstrong
John A. Biltz
William Armstrong wrote in message <364612...@sympatico.ca>...
I did not care for The Mummy, I did not really care for the concept. To
tell the truth I did not care for her telling us where Vampires came from.
There are some things that should remain a mystery, it makes them more
mysterious and interesting. You take a great concept like immortals and
some idiot tells us they are from some Z planet. Great mysteries should
stay that way.
The thing about sleep is that the most important thing it gives us is not
rest. REM is not really rest. Since you were in the Army I am sure there
were times where you went days with out sleep. What goes first is the mind
not the body. The body will keep going with rest as long as the mind tells
it to keep going. We get something from REM that is the third most
important necessity to life, oxygen being the first, water is second. In
minutes you can die without oxygen You can die in hours without water in
the wrong environment. A week or so is about as long you can go without
sleep. It is more important than food. We know immies need food, water and
oxygen. Why should they not need sleep as well?
Liv
<william....@sympatico.ca> wrote:
(snip)
>If I remember rightly, part of the "curse" that "damned" Ramses was a
>loss of this passion. The world to him became "dreamlike". He was
>disassociated from it. He no longer thought like a mortal. That's how
>immortals should be - like demi-gods. Now, I know MacLeod has stressed
>it again and again that they are not gods, never were, and should never
>pretend to be. But they are like demi-gods, at least like those of
>Greek mythology, where male demi-gods are great warriors (like Heracles
>or Achilles) and female demi-gods (like Helen of Troy) were
>extraordinarily beautiful. This takes away from the human aspect most
>people here probably watch it for (that and seeing MacLeod takes his
>shirt off - or seeing that bath scene (joke)), but still, there you have
>it. I think Methos is a bit like this. Still a man, still "just a
>guy", but more than that, and weary from the endless centuries. (As
>Tolkien says in The Silmarillion of the Elves: (paraphrase): "...unless
>one grow weary of ten thousand centuries ... they die not till the world
>dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief".) But, then, that's
>cleary not, from what we see in the movies and the TV series, how the
>minds of Immortals function. Just an idea on how I think they should.
---------------------------------
I think the wandering around fighting other immortals keeps them
honest--but many of them clearly do withdraw to monasteries, or
withdraw from the world in some way, for long periods--or become self
destructive, or perhaps take up revenge to keep themselves feeling
alive.
I tend to prefer Yarbro's vampires--if you live a long time you need
to keep on making contact with others, even if this puts you in
danger, because that is what makes life worth living. I think this is
closer to what happens in Highlander. The ones who lose their
passion, or cannot be passionate unless death stares them in the face
(wasn't there a show about a pianist?....) die fairly soon, because
when it comes to a fight, well, they just don't care....
Liv
garba...@Ziplink.net
take out the garbage to reply
If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing...
John A. Biltz
William Armstrong wrote in message <3648D6...@sympatico.ca>...
>John A. Biltz wrote:
>
>>
>> I did not care for The Mummy, I did not really care for the concept. To
>> tell the truth I did not care for her telling us where Vampires came
from.
>
>it. Fair enough.
>
>> There are some things that should remain a mystery, it makes them more
>> mysterious and interesting. You take a great concept like immortals and
>> some idiot tells us they are from some Z planet. Great mysteries should
>> stay that way.
>
>explained. Personally, I like to know, even if it's fiction.
>
>> The thing about sleep is that the most important thing it gives us is not
>> rest. REM is not really rest. Since you were in the Army I am sure
there
>> were times where you went days with out sleep. What goes first is the
mind
>> not the body. The body will keep going with rest as long as the mind
tells
>> it to keep going. We get something from REM that is the third most
>> important necessity to life, oxygen being the first, water is second. In
>> minutes you can die without oxygen You can die in hours without water in
>> the wrong environment. A week or so is about as long you can go without
>> sleep. It is more important than food. We know immies need food, water
and
>> oxygen. Why should they not need sleep as well?
>
>obviously works differently. We've seen them eat and sleep so much
>there's no question of it. Even in the first Highlander movie, where
>their immortality was different, they still needed to sleep - and eat.
>For a lot of people, too, the human aspects of Highlander are the most
>important - to make them as I described would create something too
>distant and almost godlike. That would take away too much, for some
>people.
Raising fist in air and shouting
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Hey, you do not get to be an acknowledged winner often.
John A. Biltz
>John A. Biltz wrote:
>
>> Raising fist in air and shouting
>> YYYYYYYYYYYYYYIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA.
>>
>> Hey, you do not get to be an acknowledged winner often.
>
>great...must commit seppuku...must commit...UHHHHGGGHHKKkkkk...
LOL. Well at least you took it well. Look at it this way, now you can
always say you have an open mind and are willing to listen and possibly
accept new ideas. Big man to admit........all that stuff. Use judo turn it
to your advantage.
William Armstrong
>
> I did not care for The Mummy, I did not really care for the concept. To
> tell the truth I did not care for her telling us where Vampires came from.
Well, that wasn't a part of The Mummy, but oh well. You didn't care for
it. Fair enough.
> There are some things that should remain a mystery, it makes them more
> mysterious and interesting. You take a great concept like immortals and
> some idiot tells us they are from some Z planet. Great mysteries should
> stay that way.
Well, it does make the whole concept less attractive once it's
explained. Personally, I like to know, even if it's fiction.
> The thing about sleep is that the most important thing it gives us is not
> rest. REM is not really rest. Since you were in the Army I am sure there
> were times where you went days with out sleep. What goes first is the mind
> not the body. The body will keep going with rest as long as the mind tells
> it to keep going. We get something from REM that is the third most
> important necessity to life, oxygen being the first, water is second. In
> minutes you can die without oxygen You can die in hours without water in
> the wrong environment. A week or so is about as long you can go without
> sleep. It is more important than food. We know immies need food, water and
> oxygen. Why should they not need sleep as well?
All right, all right. I agree with you. The immortality of Highlander
Shauna or Ian
the immortals healing abilities was addressed in the ep Through A Glass
Darkly where Cochrane loses his memory after he lost his temper and
accidentally killed his student. Duncan asks Methos if it's possible
that Cochranes memory loss could be related to physical injury and
Methos says no but it's possible that it could be due to emotional
trauma (something like that...) so while it's not possible for there to
be a physical cause for brain injury or impairment, it's possible that
there may be an emotional one...after all they still feel emotion and as
Duncan once said to Sean Burns....it's possible to treat the immortal
brain with psychology, just alot more complicated.