Q re characters in last 2 episodes of the whole series
ecriva
I have read the summary of the last 2 episodes where Duncan is given the
chance to see what would have happened if he hadn't been around. Can someone
explain to me what would have Tess been like/her life without Duncan? the
synopsis says she would have been a "black widow" _ I don't get this. Any
other character where things would have been different for them in an
interesting way? I really liked the Tess character in the show. It was nice
to see a love-interest woman who was not only attractive but smart,
confident and had maturity about her. Good match for Mac I thought.
Anyway, looking forward to hearing the replies to my ques.
thanks!
Erica brandon
Oz HL fan!
First Fallen
Actually, it was Amanda who was the Black Widow. Without Duncan in her
life, Amanda mad the progression from a thief, to a woman who would marry
rich men, and then kill them, and collect all their money.
Tessa was kind of sad in a way. She married, and had children, but she had
lost her passion for art and for life. She ran a gallery, but no longer
created art of her own. It seemed to me that Tessa was existing, but not
living. With Duncan, even though she died young, she lived a rich life.
The other characters lives unfolded quite differenlty.
Read only if you still want to be spoiled
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Methos' secret was betrayed by his fiance to Horton, and it was only the
timely intervention of Kronos that saved him. She had hoped to end the war
between Watchers and Immortals, but it all backfired, and she was killed.
Methos went back to his old, nasty ways after that.
Richie met his first death during a home burglary. He was shot by the home
owner. He wandered for a while, not knowing what he was, or why guys with
swords were coming after him. He was finally found by Methos and Kronos,
who used him. The Watchers were killing Immortals left, right and center,
and Methos and Kronos wanted revenge for the deaths of Silas and Caspian,
and decided to take it out on Joe. They sent Richie to kill Joe, but when
he couldn't do it, they took his head.
Horton took over the Watchers, and Joe wasn't able to stop him. Without
Duncan or The Watchers in his life, Joe descended into alcoholism, and was
playing songs on the street for spare change. He was also apparently
cutting his own hair with rusty garden shears.
Fitzcairn botched an attempt to blow up Westminster Abbey and overthrow King
George in 1720, and was executed via beheading.
Amanda is killed at the hands of the Watchers, during a plot to kill her
latest husband.
That's pretty much the gist of it.
Rebecca Wallace
In the alternate universe, *Amanda* was a "black widow", who apparently
lured rich men to marry her, then she killed them and got their money, which
is kind of like what a black widow spider does (mates, then many times kills
and eats the male version of their species... these are very venomous
spiders here in the US, don't know if you are familiar with them where you
are).
Anyway, *Tessa* in the alternate universe is still an artist, but she has
married and had 2 beautiful children, but has basically abandoned her art (I
can't remember now, did her husband encourage her to stop working, or did
she decide on her own to concentrate on her family?... it has been a while
since I have seen these eps)... and when she meets Duncan in this alternate
universe, his presence/influence seems to make her confront some regret
about not being active in her art anymore... but no "black widow" behavior.
Becky
Jerri
> Tessa was kind of sad in a way. She married,
> and had children, but she had lost her passion
> for art and for life. She ran a gallery, but no longer
> created art of her own. It seemed to me that
> Tessa was existing, but not living. With Duncan,
> even though she died young, she lived a rich life.
Yeeks! I think the only reason Tessa was sad was because Duncan *did* come
into her life and upset things. Until then, she had her kids and her
gallery. She had a husband who was kind of oblivious, not to mention
condescending, but that doesn't necessarily negate his value to her life.
He supported her unsuccessful gallery, and let's face it ... the art we saw
that Tessa did in *this* universe wasn't really very good. Big ole steel
doughnuts? In that other universe, she produced the Inamorata ... which was
head 'n' shoulders above steel doughnuts.She had a "night" with ole
Dunkie-pooh and tearfully sent him on his way ... she was obviously
sophisticated enough to know that he wasn't what she really wanted. How many
women get the chance to blow off a guy that gorgeous? I don't feel sorry for
Tessa in either universe. She was happy with Duncan. She was content without
Duncan. There's a lot to be said for harboring the memories of one really
hot night, and ... uh .. not dying young.
Jerri
JDChronicler
the gallery. He was the opposite of supportive. Frankly, I think it crushed
her spirit. She didn't believe in herself anymore. There's a difference between
feeling content and feeling that you have no options.
Shomeret
HiRene23
>Re Tessa in the TB/NTB universe-- Her husband belittled both Tessa's art and
>the gallery. He was the opposite of supportive.
Was he? I would have to watch the ep again, it's been a long time, but I do
remember thinking at the time that Tessa's husband was an easy mark for blame.
IIRC, he bought her the art studio, which seems at least somewhat supportive to
me. He was obviously a man with an Important Career, perhaps more important
than it should have been, but honestly I don't think we saw enough of their
relationship to determine that. He left the dinner with Duncan for an
important business thing that he had to deal with. This happens and people do
have responsibilities to their jobs that must be kept sometimes, even if it
means leaving your very attractive and discontent wife alone with a gorgeous
man who keeps making puppy eyes at her. Was her husband uncaring and clueless,
or did he simply trust in his wife?
> Frankly, I think it crushed
>her spirit. She didn't believe in herself anymore. There's a difference
>between
>feeling content and feeling that you have no options.
I would agree with you that Tessa was unhappy, only I don't think she realized
how much until she was presented with the "what-if" world of Duncan Macleod. I
can't believe that she regretted her life completely, I can't see Tessa
regretting her children for instance, but she was given a double-edged sword,
IMO, when she had her one night with Duncan. She was given a brief glimpse of
another path her life could have taken, perhaps more artistically fulfilling,
and with deeper and more passionate love, but it's also a life without her
children. It's not like she had a choice to make at that point, but it's
interesting to ponder what she would have chosen if she could have.
I guess I just feel a bit sorry for Tessa's husband. I mean, c'mon.. he's just
a hard working guy, we have no reason to believe that he was abusive in any
way, or a bad father, or a bad husband even.. all we do know is that he's no
Duncan Macleod. :)
(not a comparison many men could live up to, btw).
Rene
Raymond Speer
Would a universe without Duncan MacLeod have made Amanda a Black Widow?
Without Mac, does not Amanda lose both of her hands in 1753
Constantinople, where amputation of her hands would be the punishment
for thievery? (Finale pt 2, the end of the 3rd season.) A woman with
stumps instead of hands is not likely to be attractive enough to be a
Black Widow.
Jerri
An Immortal with stumps instead of hands is not likely to survive in The
Game. Period.
On the other hand, so to speak, Amanda was pretty clever and might well have
escaped her punishment in some other fashion if Dunkie-pooh weren't there to
rescue her. We Just Don't Know.
I always had doubts about Amanda's becoming a Black Widow anyways. She lived
a long time as a thief and a whore before she ever met Duncan. So far as we
know, she never did the Black Widow thing before she met him. That's a long
history of being able to get along without becoming a cold-blooded murderer,
and it's quite possible that the influence of her teacher Rebecca was as
much a tempering agent as Duncan ever could have been. If the events in the
Alternate Universe were merely figments of Duncan's subconscious, then there
is every reason to believe his subconscious would set him up for survival by
providing Very Strong Reasons why he should Fight To Survive.
It's kind of funny that his subconscious set him up for self-forgiveness ...
Richie would have bit the big one anyways, and Tessa would have been a
lonely soul without him ... an alive soul, but ever-so-lonely. But Joe ...
Joe really needed Duncan, according to Duncan's subconscious, 'cause without
Duncan's influence Joe turned into a self-pitying alcoholic with a permanent
bad hair day.
Jerri
First Fallen
Duncan and Amanda first met in 1635, so had they not met then, and formed a
friendship/romance, who knows how her life changed from that moment forward.
We know that by the1990's she's murdering her husbands for money, but we
don't see the journey. Not meeting Duncan MacLeod put her life on a
different path, and therefor, she could very easily not have ended up in
Constantinople in 1753.
You change one thing, and the ripples move outward, affecting everything
around them.
Had a German machine gunner had slightly different aim in WWI, I would never
have existed, nor would my grandfather, my father, his sister, her kids and
grandkids or my brother. The lives of my great grandmother, grandmother,
mother, uncle, sister-in-law, and my cousins' husbands would all be very
different. As would those of my father's aunt and uncles, and their
children, grandchildren and their spouses...because most of us would no
longer exist. The lives of my friends would be different. I'm not arrogant
enough to think that I've had a huge impact on the world, but had a couple
of German bullets been a foot and a half to the right, or left, a couple of
small parts of the world would be very different places.
First Fallen
lived
> a long time as a thief and a whore before she ever met Duncan. So far as
we
> know, she never did the Black Widow thing before she met him. That's a
long
> history of being able to get along without becoming a cold-blooded
murderer,
> and it's quite possible that the influence of her teacher Rebecca was as
> much a tempering agent as Duncan ever could have been.
But we don't know what event set that off?
Rebecca may have been killed by an Immortal that Duncan was supposed to have
killed. There's that influence gone. By not meeting MacLeod, Amanda's life
was sent on a different path. That may have resulted in a series of
circumstances that led to Amanda being a Black Widow. I don't think we can
judge the AU counterparts by the character we know...they've led different
lives, had different experiences, they are essentially, different people.
Anita Terry
"HiRene23" <hire...@aol.comn> wrote in message
news:20040224124102...@mb-m05.aol.com...
IIRC he wasn't abusive, just negligent. i think he indulged tessa so that
she would have something to occupy her time and keep her out of his hair. i
think his attitude toward her art was not necessarily belittling, but
condescending. either way, it had a negative effect on her.
Annie T
JDChronicler
husband indicated that the gallery wasn't a serious business and had no
patience for Duncan's attempt to discuss Tessa's art. The bottom line was his
only concern.
Shomeret
Donna
> IIRC, he bought her the art studio, which seems at least somewhat
supportive to
> me.
In L.A., at least, it's trendy for powerful, rich men to patronizingly
finance the little woman's little hobby -- usually an antiques or
handicrafts boutique or an expensive clothing store that carries three
items.
Donna
Donna
> Without Mac, does not Amanda lose both of her hands in 1753
> Constantinople, where amputation of her hands would be the punishment
> for thievery? (Finale pt 2, the end of the 3rd season.)
Why automatically assume Amanda was in Constantinople in 1753? In the Real
World, she met Duncan in 1635 -- her path could've changed completely from
that moment on.
Donna
(sick in bed with tummy flu girl)
First Fallen
> > Without Mac, does not Amanda lose both of her hands in 1753
> > Constantinople, where amputation of her hands would be the punishment
> > for thievery? (Finale pt 2, the end of the 3rd season.)
>
> Why automatically assume Amanda was in Constantinople in 1753? In the
Real
> World, she met Duncan in 1635 -- her path could've changed completely from
> that moment on.
That all sounds terribly familiar <eg>
> Donna
> (sick in bed with tummy flu girl)
Ew, hope ya feel better
ecriva
Tessa as the black widow thing. Glad she wasn't :)
cheers
Erica Brandon
Anita Terry
"JDChronicler" <jdchro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040224210958...@mb-m29.aol.com...
exactly.
Annie T
Jerri
> Thanks for the answers - it clears the synopsis
> up for me. It wrongly had Tessa as the black
> widow thing. Glad she wasn't :)
Perhaps in yet Another Universe, Tessa did become a Black Widow. I rather
like the idea. Tessa: Woman With a Plan. Her first victim could have been
that husband from the Alternate Universe. There could be a Comedy Episode in
Another Universe in which she kills AU husband, then marries Duncan MacLeod
and spends the rest of her life trying to kill him while he looks on with
bemusement and occasionally goes "Oh Tessa" in a Cuban accent. Ethel would
already have killed Fred, but no one notices because Ethel becomes Quite a
Hottie outside of Fred's Sphere of Influence. She sets her sights on Joe and
spends her nights at the bar, listening to him playing the blues and tapping
her toe, out of sync, to the music. She drinks vodka, straight up with a
twist. Ethel would be played by Cindy Lauper.
Jerri [revisionist at heart]
Edie
HiRene23 wrote:
>
> Shomeret:
> >Re Tessa in the TB/NTB universe-- Her husband belittled both Tessa's art and
> >the gallery. He was the opposite of supportive.
>
> Was he? I would have to watch the ep again, it's been a long time, but I do
> remember thinking at the time that Tessa's husband was an easy mark for blame.
> IIRC, he bought her the art studio, which seems at least somewhat supportive to
> me. He was obviously a man with an Important Career, perhaps more important
> than it should have been, but honestly I don't think we saw enough of their
> relationship to determine that. He left the dinner with Duncan for an
> important business thing that he had to deal with. This happens and people do
> have responsibilities to their jobs that must be kept sometimes, even if it
> means leaving your very attractive and discontent wife alone with a gorgeous
> man who keeps making puppy eyes at her. Was her husband uncaring and clueless,
> or did he simply trust in his wife?
>
> > Frankly, I think it crushed
> >her spirit. She didn't believe in herself anymore. There's a difference
> >between
> >feeling content and feeling that you have no options.
>
> I would agree with you that Tessa was unhappy, only I don't think she realized
> how much until she was presented with the "what-if" world of Duncan Macleod.
I agree, but I think that Fitz pointed out that it was
something that she would have realized on her own
eventually as well. Just in that initial scene in the
bedroom between her and her husband indicated to me that
she was aware of her own unhappiness. And whenever that
awareness came, IMO, there would be no turning back.
> can't believe that she regretted her life completely, I can't see Tessa
> regretting her children for instance,
I agree.
but she was given a double-edged sword,
> IMO, when she had her one night with Duncan. She was given a brief glimpse of
> another path her life could have taken, perhaps more artistically fulfilling,
> and with deeper and more passionate love, but it's also a life without her
> children. It's not like she had a choice to make at that point, but it's
> interesting to ponder what she would have chosen if she could have.
I agree.
>
> I guess I just feel a bit sorry for Tessa's husband. I mean, c'mon.. he's just
> a hard working guy, we have no reason to believe that he was abusive in any
> way, or a bad father, or a bad husband even.. all we do know is that he's no
> Duncan Macleod. :)
> (not a comparison many men could live up to, btw).
<g>
I think that he was just the wrong man for Tessa. Another
man, not even Duncan, could have been far more supportive of
her. He wasn't a bad man at all, IMO; he just didn't share
any of her passions. Art to him was a commodity to be
bought and sold. If art didn't turn a profit, it didn't
mean anything to him. He cared about Tessa as his wife, not
but was not interested in supporting her unique talents as
a person in her own right.
He didn't neglect her as a wife, IMO- he seemed to really
care for her in his way, and I think that he thought that
he was making her happy. But he either ignored or
belittled her pursuit of her art. Not to be cruel, but
simply because it didn't matter to him. He indulged her to
a certain extent, without really respecting her or her
talent, IMO, being the kind of man who couldn't see value
in things that he didn't personally care about.
Add Duncan to that mix, someone who *did* share her
passions and was the kind of man who loved women for
who they were as people- look out. :-)
Edie
> Rene
GinjerB
<dle...@verizon.fishnet> writes:
>Subject: Re: Q re characters in last 2 episodes of the whole series
>From: "Donna" <dle...@verizon.fishnet>
>Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:36:08 GMT
Relating --sick in bed with tummy flu last week.
"Going around" as they say.
GinjerB
Jerri
> I think that he was just the wrong man for Tessa.
I'm not certain there would ever be a right man for Tessa. She obviously
needed someone to support her "art", and this guy was the guy in this
particular universe who offered it to her. She got her kids and security
[didn't have to put herself out as a hooker like her friend Elaine, who was
also very artistic and talented and stuff] and got to dabble in "art", and
no doubt hang out with the artsy fartsy types who would tell her what a
great artiste she could have been, would have been, if only ... Maybe in the
non-Duncan Universe, she raised her kids and got her mid-life divorce and
became the artiste she always wanted to be. It's the stereotype that women
would do what they could do, what they *should* do, if only they hadn't
settled down with Frank Normal ... and then ole Frank has his coronary and
dies [or finds a younger woman and abandons her] ... and the woman finally
breaks free of convention and becomes Grandma Moses or something. In this
scenario, Tessa has a brilliant future ahead of her ... if a rather mundane
present, spiced by the occasional Duncan in her bed ... oh yes .. we do get
to speculate on Tessa's love life, 'cause ... she ... like ... kinda ...
didn't take much convincing to fall into bed with Duncan.
Jerri [the seemingly cynical]
Edie
<g> I'm not sure that she needed someone to support her
art, exactly... my guess would be that she was just
starting out when she met this man and fell in love with
him, gradually letting him direct her focus away from her
art and more into domestic and social life at a time when
she was less sure of herself and what she wanted out of
life. I think that in any marriage, it's hard for one
partner to pursue a calling, whatever it is, without the
support of the other.
Whether she would have been able to make it as an artist if
she hadn't met him and had been single, I don't know.
She certainly had other options besides becoming a
prostitute or marrying a rich man. <g>
It occurs to me, though, that the young Tessa was a person
who might well have been subject to being swept off her
feet by the attraction of (and to) a confident, personally
charismatic man, judging by Duncan and her au husband.
She chose good men, but in the au husband's case, not the
kind of man who would have been truly supportive of her
artistic endeavors.
The theme of the people we meet affecting our lives shows
up a number of times in HL, and especially in To Be/Not To
Be. I'm not sure that it is as important an element in
the choices we make in our lives as our own personalities
are, but it's an interesting theme, I think.
Edie
Jerri
> She chose good men, but in the au husband's
> case, not the kind of man who would have
> been truly supportive of her
> artistic endeavors.
Hmmmmmm .... I dunno ... it seems like he *did* support her "artistic"
endeavors. They just weren't successful, and I think it would be wrong to
blame him for getting a little rankled at some point that those endeavors
are still costing him money, and will continue to cost him money. How long
is he supposed to be a cash cow before she figures out how to make money at
her "art"? Doesn't she bear some responsibility for making the thing work
instead of perpetually leaning on him? In the Duncan Universe, Tessa may
have made poor art [steel doughnuts], but at least she had the contacts and
savvy to be moderately successful. In the un-Duncan Universe, it seems we're
supposed to blame Frank Normal for not being a happily permanent patsy for
her *career*. Perhaps if we are to put some sort of blame on ole Frank, it
should be for letting her slide into a career of artistic dilettantism
instead of forcing her to stand on her own two feet.
Jerri [looking at it from various angles]
HiRene23
>Art to him was a commodity to be
>bought and sold. If art didn't turn a profit, it didn't
>mean anything to him.
> But he either ignored or
>belittled her pursuit of her art. Not to be cruel, but
>simply because it didn't matter to him.
I can't argue these points because I honestly don't remember seeing specific
evidence proving or disproving them. I am now determined to rewatch the ep to
see if I really missed so much. All I remember is that he supported her art by
way of buying her a studio to work in, and that he was a man with a career of
his own to concentrate on.
>He indulged her to
>a certain extent, without really respecting her or her
>talent, IMO, being the kind of man who couldn't see value
>in things that he didn't personally care about.
>
Let's go with your opinion that he didn't care about art. Despite his
shortcomings as an art fan, he did what he was able to do, which is supply the
needed $$ to enable Tessa to practice her craft, and I assume that sculpture
requires a pretty good supply of $$.
I'm not arguing that he was a great husband for Tessa, but I think the fact
that we were shown Tessa as less happy than she could have ideally been with
Duncan doesn't necessarily make Frank Normal (stealing Jerri's name) a bad guy.
I still think he's an easy mark to make assumptions about and to lay the blame
for Tessa's unhappiness on.
Rene
Edie
HiRene23 wrote:
>
> Edie:
> >Art to him was a commodity to be
> >bought and sold. If art didn't turn a profit, it didn't
> >mean anything to him.
>
> > But he either ignored or
> >belittled her pursuit of her art. Not to be cruel, but
> >simply because it didn't matter to him.
>
> I can't argue these points because I honestly don't remember seeing specific
> evidence proving or disproving them. I am now determined to rewatch the ep to
> see if I really missed so much. All I remember is that he supported her art by
> way of buying her a studio to work in, and that he was a man with a career of
> his own to concentrate on.
My memory is that he discouraged her from pursuing her
own art; the studio was for the work of others. I
think. I could probably do with a rewatch as
well. :-)
>
> >He indulged her to
> >a certain extent, without really respecting her or her
> >talent, IMO, being the kind of man who couldn't see value
> >in things that he didn't personally care about.
> >
>
> Let's go with your opinion that he didn't care about art. Despite his
> shortcomings as an art fan, he did what he was able to do, which is supply the
> needed $$ to enable Tessa to practice her craft, and I assume that sculpture
> requires a pretty good supply of $$.
If so, then I'd agree with you- it was just my memory that
he discouraged her from doing her own work.
Edie
Susan Stansfield
>Donna
>(sick in bed with tummy flu girl)
Awww! Poor Donna! :-(
Susan
(sending virtual chicken soup)
Darth Maul's Highlander Site:
http://pub54.ezboard.com/fdarthscommunityfrm20
Edie
Susan Stansfield wrote:
>
> In article <YCV_b.6021$fL4....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, "Donna"
> <dle...@verizon.fishnet> wrote:
>
> >Donna
> >(sick in bed with tummy flu girl)
>
> Awww! Poor Donna! :-(
>
> Susan
> (sending virtual chicken soup)
Hope you feel better soon, Donna...
Edie
Mel
take a look at you....hehehe :)
Mel
Honorary Horsewoman and Unabashed Gutter Girl
The trouble with Immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
Donna
>There could be a Comedy Episode in
> Another Universe in which she kills AU husband, then marries Duncan
MacLeod
> and spends the rest of her life trying to kill him while he looks on with
> bemusement and occasionally goes "Oh Tessa" in a Cuban accent.
Ironically, there was supposed to be a comedy episode in Season 3 where
Amanda fell in love with and married a Black Widower -- and then he and his
lover/accompliss [that can't be the right spelling, but there's only so much
one can do from a prone position...] spend the next two acts unsuccessfully
dropping her down elevator shafts, etc. Perhaps it's for the best that
Elizabeth got that short-lived "Extreme" series then and that script had to
be shelved.
Donna
("Take Back The Night" was its replacement -- lucky for Chis)
Susan Stansfield
In article <Dju%b.21567$fL4....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, "Donna"
<dle...@verizon.fishnet> wrote:
>Ironically, there was supposed to be a comedy episode in Season 3 where
>Amanda fell in love with and married a Black Widower -- and then he and
>his
>lover/accompliss [that can't be the right spelling, but there's only so
>much
>one can do from a prone position...]
Accomplice.
spend the next two acts unsuccessfully
>dropping her down elevator shafts, etc. Perhaps it's for the best that
>Elizabeth got that short-lived "Extreme" series then and that script had
>to
>be shelved.
>
>Donna
>("Take Back The Night" was its replacement -- lucky for Chis)
<g>
Susan
ecriva
were committed to each other, and they weren't having children cos of the
immortal thing with Duncan but he did marry ....was it Sarah (can't remember
her name) who he made immortal ( I thought she was not a good actress and I
thought he was way way too anorexic looking but that's just my opinion and
just couldn't see her with Duncan)? Yet Tessa seemed a true match for
Duncan.
Just wondering about your thoughts? I don't remember it was ever mentioned
(but then I only saw series one.)
cheers
Erica Brandon
First Fallen
Kate (Katherine Mary Devanney) was the name of the girl that Duncan married.
Duncan and Tessa were engaged to be married when she died. he had proposed
to her shortly before she was kidnapped (she was kidnapped by a rogue
Watcher in order to lure Duncan out she he could kill him). After she was
rescued, she and Richie were gunned down during a robbery.
As to why they never married before that? Who knows. Duncan was pretty
affected by what he had done to Kate, to the point where he never admitted
being married before when asked by Richie. He may have had a fear of it, or
didn't want to have a woman commit herself so totally to him, knowing that
some night he may not come home. But He knew Tessa loved him for who he
was, and she stayed with him, even knowing everything about him. He finally
relaxed enough to ask her to marry him, but the fates had other ideas.
Carlos Santillan
> Just out of curiosity, why didn't Tessa and Duncan every marry? I know they
> were committed to each other, and they weren't having children cos of the
> immortal thing with Duncan but he did marry ....was it Sarah (can't remember
> her name) who he made immortal ( I thought she was not a good actress and I
Immortals are not vampires they cannot transform a mortal into an immortal.
Ammaletu
> affected by what he had done to Kate, to the point where he never admitted
> being married before when asked by Richie. He may have had a fear of it,
or
> didn't want to have a woman commit herself so totally to him, knowing that
> some night he may not come home. But He knew Tessa loved him for who he
> was, and she stayed with him, even knowing everything about him. He
finally
> relaxed enough to ask her to marry him, but the fates had other ideas.
Just an idea: In the twelve years before "The Gathering" Duncan had rather
few encounters with other Immortals, and none involved Tessa. So before the
incident with Slan Quince he maybe wasn't sure how Tessa would react to the
reality of the Game. In the first episode he was willing to break up with
Tessa to protect her from the Game, and I think he always expected this day
to come. Later into the first season he saw that Tessa loved him so much
that she was able to cope with all the Immortal stuff, and so finally a
marriage seemed possible for Duncan.
But the more important question for me always was: Why didn't they adopt a
child if Tessa so deeply wanted to have one?! This thought somewhat ruined
this story element in "The Sea Witch" for me. I mean, Connor did it twice in
the same century, and he isn't exactly hiding from the Game. ;-)
Bye,
Johannes
Klausimus Maximus
news:hfg1c.84682$Wa.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
She died.
KM
>
>
>
>
>
Fuzzy
Maybe I'm just being touchy, but it seems to me unfair to refer to
Tessa's art as "art". Ok, her stuff never did much for me but I
thought she was supposed to be a serious artist. I don't much like or
understand modern art, but I certainly prefer her stuff to the David
Lynch crap I have to look at at work every day (bizarre drawings of
heads - one has footprint in the middle). For me it was more important
how the other characters interacted with her as an artist, than what
the producers bought for her. But maybe she really was just a kept
woman/delitante like you seem to imply.
Gabby
Jerri
> Maybe I'm just being touchy, but it seems
> to me unfair to refer to Tessa's art as "art".
Tessa's *art* in this universe was steel doughnuts, and as they were piling
those doughnuts in at "artful" fashion, she looked at them and said she
thought they were the best work she'd ever done.. Give me a break!
> Ok, her stuff never did much for me but I
> thought she was supposed to be a serious
> artist.
Lots of serious artists out there whose work would gag a maggot.
> I don't much like or understand modern art,
> but I certainly prefer her stuff to the David
> Lynch crap I have to look at at work every
> day (bizarre drawings of heads - one has
> footprint in the middle).
Okey dokey.
> For me it was more important how the other
> characters interacted with her as an artist,
> than what the producers bought for her.
> But maybe she really was just a kept
> woman/delitante like you seem to imply.
I don't think Tessa was *just* anything at all, but I think it ill behooves
us to look at her husband in the Alternate Universe and say he's a dullard
or unappreciative of Tessa ... as so many others seem to imply ... just
because he realizes that supporting Tessa's *art career* is an expensive
proposition from which he has very little chance of making a profit. Or
breaking even. Or receiving any appreciation because he supports her. He has
a rather unhappy wife who isn't happy, because even his money couldn't turn
her into a success. If she could have been successful on her own, don't you
think things would have been different between them?
Jerri
Edie
Jerri wrote:
>
> "Fuzzy" <x...@xx.com> wrote
>
> > Maybe I'm just being touchy, but it seems
> > to me unfair to refer to Tessa's art as "art".
>
> Tessa's *art* in this universe was steel doughnuts, and as they were piling
> those doughnuts in at "artful" fashion, she looked at them and said she
> thought they were the best work she'd ever done.. Give me a break!
That was just one of her works, and Henry Moore made quite
a name for himself in the art world with doughnut-like
sculptures. :-)
>
> > Ok, her stuff never did much for me but I
> > thought she was supposed to be a serious
> > artist.
>
> Lots of serious artists out there whose work would gag a maggot.
Perhaps, but the shows implied to me that her talent was
being recognized in the art world as significant.
>
> > For me it was more important how the other
> > characters interacted with her as an artist,
> > than what the producers bought for her.
> > But maybe she really was just a kept
> > woman/delitante like you seem to imply.
>
> I don't think Tessa was *just* anything at all, but I think it ill behooves
> us to look at her husband in the Alternate Universe and say he's a dullard
> or unappreciative of Tessa ... as so many others seem to imply ... just
> because he realizes that supporting Tessa's *art career* is an expensive
> proposition from which he has very little chance of making a profit.
Why should that be such a big deal for him if he loves her?
And if he'd stuck with her, her art probably *would* have
made a profit.
Or
> breaking even. Or receiving any appreciation because he supports her.He has
> a rather unhappy wife who isn't happy, because even his money couldn't turn
> her into a success. If she could have been successful on her own, don't you
> think things would have been different between them?
From what I could tell, he never tried to contribute
anything to her success, monetarily or otherwise. He
indulged her interest in art by allowing her to open
a gallery, yes, but my impression was that it displayed
mostly the works of others, not her own, because he had
pooh-poohed her own talent and ambition to be an
artist herself. It's been a while since I've seen the
ep, though.
I think that she married him before she ever would have
been successful on her own. One could argue that if she
had been truly driven as an artist, she would have made
the choice that Linda Plager made and never married that
guy, but I think that this would be a little harsh,
depending on where she was emotionally and in terms of
confidence in her talent at the time. Linda already had a
careeer, while Tessa would have just been starting out.
If she'd never met him in the au, perhaps she *would*
have become a success on her own, especially if she found
mentor who didn't discourage her in her art.
I never thought that he was a bad guy, I just think that
he was the wrong guy for Tessa. If she had married a man
who believed in her and her talent, she'd have been much
happier, even if that man wasn't Duncan MacLeod.
MHO
Edie
> Jerri
Jerri
> I never thought that he was a bad guy,
> I just think that he was the wrong guy
> for Tessa. If she had married a man
> who believed in her and her talent,
> she'd have been much happier, even
> if that man wasn't Duncan MacLeod.
Since the AU universe is designed to prove that Duncan MacLeod is necessary
and a positive force, couldn't it just be that our Tessa married for money
and lived to regret the deal she made? It is just as likely as Amanda's
becoming a serial black widow. It is as likely as Joe's becoming a bad
street musician with a permanently bad hair day. It is as likely as Methos'
rejoining the Horsemen for real and killing Richie for failing to kill Joe.
Taken from the point of view that Duncan's subconscious is trying to
convince him that his life has value, it all makes sense. A world with
Duncan MacLeod might have tragedy galore, but a world without Duncan MacLeod
is ... unthinkable ... for everyone.
Jerri
Edie
I guess it's possible, but I didn't see Tessa as being a
person to marry for money. I think I wrote earlier that I
could see her being swept off her feet by her own romantic
passion for this guy; he seemed to have a fairly powerful,
at least confident, personality. I could see her believing
him when he said that her talent wasn't worth pursuing, and
going along with his plan for their lives, particularly
because she *did* want children, I think. And then as her
life unfolded she felt this increasing emptiness inside
where her stunted creativity resided.
Well, it's a theory. :-)
Edie
> Jerri
JDChronicler
incapable of singing badly. He doesn't know how.
Shomeret
Jerri
> And then as her life unfolded she felt this
> increasing emptiness inside
> where her stunted creativity resided.
> Well, it's a theory. :-)
Hey, Edie! Ain't it funny how we can drag so much meaning ... angst and
personal tragedy ... out of a 1-time appearance by AU Tessa ... shown as a
rather stereotypical potential artiste, dragged down by the uncaring
attitude of a stereotypical clueless spouse? <G>
Jerri [who always though Tessa was a whiner in *this* universe and thinks
she kinda carried that over to the AU]
Edie
Jerri wrote:
>
> "Edie" <ed...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> > And then as her life unfolded she felt this
> > increasing emptiness inside
> > where her stunted creativity resided.
> > Well, it's a theory. :-)
>
> Hey, Edie! Ain't it funny how we can drag so much meaning ... angst and
> personal tragedy ... out of a 1-time appearance by AU Tessa ...
lol It's what we (I?) do. :-)
shown as a
> rather stereotypical potential artiste, dragged down by the uncaring
> attitude of a stereotypical clueless spouse? <G>
> Jerri [who always though Tessa was a whiner in *this* universe and thinks
> she kinda carried that over to the AU]
If so, I've seen a lot worse. :-) She never made it onto
my radar in that regard, unlike some other female
characters I could name. Have you read the Spenser novels?
Tessa isn't in Susan's league. <g>
Edie
Jerri
> Have you read the Spenser novels?
> Tessa isn't in Susan's league. <g>
I have read some of the Spenser novels, but I never thought of Susan as a
whiner. Then again, I don't pay much attention to Susan. On the other hand,
Susan is one of these fictional females who eats half a salad with dressing
on the side. I can't connect with that. What's the name of Spenser's best
friend? *He* is the best part of the Spenser novels for me. <G> Things kind
of drag when it's just Spenser and Susan. Or just Spenser.
Jerri
Edie
Jerri wrote:
>
> "Edie" <ed...@comcast.net> wrote
>
> > Have you read the Spenser novels?
> > Tessa isn't in Susan's league. <g>
>
> I have read some of the Spenser novels, but I never thought of Susan as a
> whiner. Then again, I don't pay much attention to Susan. On the other hand,
> Susan is one of these fictional females who eats half a salad with dressing
> on the side. I can't connect with that.
Me either. :-) But, yeah, I consider her a whiner of
the first order.
What's the name of Spenser's best
> friend? *He* is the best part of the Spenser novels for me. <G>
Hawk. Yeah, me too. :-) Great character!
Things kind
> of drag when it's just Spenser and Susan. Or just Spenser.
They're not books I run right out to read the moment they
are published, but they're good beach fodder for me. :-)
Edie
> Jerri
Edie
JDChronicler wrote:
>
> Re au Joe being a bad street musician-Not a chance. Jim Byrnes is probably
> incapable of singing badly. He doesn't know how.
Oh, I think everyone can sing badly if they try. And we're
talking Joe here, not Jim Byrnes.
Edie
>
> Shomeret
>
>
Jerri
> JDChronicler wrote:
[muttering] [I know it's sacrilege to even mutter such a thing under my
breath ... mutter ... mutter ... but I don't think JB is all that good a
singer ... not much of a range and it all sounds kind of the same ... mutter
... mutter ... same goes for Joe ... mutter mutter mutter] [Jerri]
[muttering quietly] [paid to attend several concerts at conventions and
bought a CD] [mutter ... mutter]
Trilby
<nooneh...@invalid.com> wrote:
>"Edie" <ed...@comcast.net> wrote
>
>> Have you read the Spenser novels?
>> Tessa isn't in Susan's league. <g>
>
>I have read some of the Spenser novels, but I never thought of Susan as a
>whiner. Then again, I don't pay much attention to Susan. On the other hand,
>Susan is one of these fictional females who eats half a salad with dressing
>on the side. I can't connect with that. What's the name of Spenser's best
>friend?
Oh! I know! That's Avery Brooks!! :-)
----------------------- Trilby (No... wait... I mean.... ;-)
Trilby
I think Jim Byrnes (and by extension, Joe, of course) has a wonderful
voice for Blues -- a genre that requires expressiveness over
everything else. I wouldn't call his voice attractive, or his range
wide; as a genre, I wouldn't call the Blues a genre that's especially
given to innovation or re-invention.
But oh my GOD, can that man make music that sounds like raw sex or
WHAT? :-) OK, to each his/her own, I know, but to me? MAN, let him
WAIL!!
---------------------- Trilby (Equal opportunity mosic lover)(Like
Duncan!)(May be the ONLY thing I have in common with him. :-)
Trilby
>Hi~
>
>Jerri wrote:
>>
>> "Fuzzy" <x...@xx.com> wrote
>>
>> > Maybe I'm just being touchy, but it seems
>> > to me unfair to refer to Tessa's art as "art".
>>
>> Tessa's *art* in this universe was steel doughnuts, and as they were piling
>> those doughnuts in at "artful" fashion, she looked at them and said she
>> thought they were the best work she'd ever done.. Give me a break!
>
>That was just one of her works, and Henry Moore made quite
>a name for himself in the art world with doughnut-like
>sculptures. :-)
And it's not like what we saw onscreen was actually "great art" or
"important art". That would have bankrupted the production company
after the first season. :-) What we saw onscreen was something the
art director (or the set dresser? or the property master?) came up
with when it was necessary for a piece of Tessa's work to appear
onscreen.
FWIW, I think we were shown enough to understand that Tessa was a
talented and well-respected artist in the HL universe. Just like we
were supposed to understand that Duncan's katana was hidden underneath
that coat or jacket or sweater somehow.
>If she'd never met him in the au, perhaps she *would*
>have become a success on her own, especially if she found
>mentor who didn't discourage her in her art.
Never, never, never, never, NEVER underestimate the devastating and
demoralizing impact of benign, dismissive neglect from someone who's
supposed to be supportive and encouraging of your endeavours.
--------------------- Trilby (Never)
Jette Goldie
"Trilby" <tril...@bellsouthernflower.net> wrote in message
news:40523ec9...@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
Yup.
There may be more *melodious* voices out there, but
none that can melt bone marrow in quite the same
way.
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Susan Stansfield
IMO, AU Joe's singing wasn't that bad. (Though it wasn't as good as the
"real" Joe's). But that guitar was hopelessly out of tune.
JDChronicler
otherwise and I'm Susan Silverman's cheerleader. I'm also the only one who
loves Susan on the Robert Parker AOL folder. Everybody else can't stand Susan.
I love her and I identify with her. I think she has very sensible and
reasonable attitudes about violence. I understand why she and Spenser have
problems in their relationship. I became a fan of Spenser initially because he
loved Susan. This was before the TV show.
When I saw Avery Brooks playing Hawk on Spenser For Hire, I became a huge fan
of Hawk and the friendship between Spenser and Hawk, but I didn't stop being
fond of Susan.
Shomeret
JDChronicler
about it. He wasn't singing like a hopeless drunk who'd lost his talent. He
could actually carry a tune which he shouldn't have been able to do. He was too
good for the sort of character that he was supposed to be. So I figured that
was Jim's inability to sing badly. That was the only performance I've ever
seen by Jim that was completely unconvincing to me.
Shomeret
Susan Stansfield
In article <20040314004134...@mb-m26.aol.com>, jdchro...@aol.com
(JDChronicler) wrote:
I think you have a point there. Personally, I saw AU Joe as just going through
the motions. His heart wasn't in his music like it is in the "real" HL
universe. It wasn't that he'd lost his talent (can a person lose talent?); it
was that he'd stopped caring.
Edie
JDChronicler wrote:
>
> Re Susan in the Spenser novels-- Well, there's always one person who thinks
> otherwise and I'm Susan Silverman's cheerleader. I'm also the only one who
> loves Susan on the Robert Parker AOL folder. Everybody else can't stand Susan.
> I love her and I identify with her. I think she has very sensible and
> reasonable attitudes about violence. I understand why she and Spenser have
> problems in their relationship. I became a fan of Spenser initially because he
> loved Susan. This was before the TV show.
I liked the Susan of the TV show fine, but I couldn't stand
her in the books. She was one of those female characters
who is never satisfied with her life and is always making
the poor guy who loves her put up with a load of
unnecessary, self-indulgent angst. Man, did she need to
get over herself! JMHO
>
> When I saw Avery Brooks playing Hawk on Spenser For Hire, I became a huge fan
> of Hawk and the friendship between Spenser and Hawk, but I didn't stop being
> fond of Susan.
As I say, I liked the Susan of the show. She wasn't a
whiner, and it was nice to see another hero with a good
steady relationship on TV, as there are so few.
Edie
>
> Shomeret
GinjerB
tril...@bellsouthernflower.net (Trilby) writes:
>
>Never, never, never, never, NEVER underestimate the devastating and
>demoralizing impact of benign, dismissive neglect from someone who's
>supposed to be supportive and encouraging of your endeavours.
>
>
> --------------------- Trilby (Never)
>
>
Speaking from the experience of having watched several authors' (names many of
you would recognize) marriages break up for that very reason, I second what
Trilby says, big time.
GinjerB
GinjerB
>Subject: Re: Q re characters in last 2 episodes of the whole series
>From: jdchro...@aol.com (JDChronicler)
>Date: 14 Mar 2004 05:41:34 GMT
You need to ride the New York City subways more--being "down and out and in the
streets" (to quote Rhymin' Simon) doesn't equate with not having talent.
Some of the people who "entertain" in the subways and on the streets here are
actually quite good. Annoying, smelly, but nonetheless good.
GinjerB
GHorvath
aware of this anti-Susan sentiment. I don't see her as a whiner at all.
Spenser puts his life and hers in danger frequently, and she'd be a fool not to
notice and insist on being consulted. I guess I think of her attitude as like
those lines from some TV episode, "Don't ask me not to go," "Well, don't ask me
not to worry."
I feel thankful I never found any Spenser message boards. I just enjoy the
books.
GH
Edie
I don't know about the message boards; I'm actually fairly
surprised that many others feel the way I do about her.
I enjoy the books too- she doesn't irrtate me so much that
I don't read them. :-)
Edie
>
> GH
GinjerB
(GHorvath) writes:
>Subject: Re: Q re characters in last 2 episodes of the whole series
>From: ghor...@aol.com (GHorvath)
>Date: 15 Mar 2004 22:35:16 GMT
I agree--you want a female love interest character who whines, I'll give you
Alex Delaware's long-time love, Robin.
Suan "gets" what and who Spenser is, and why he does what he does. And she
likes and respects Hawk. I think she's pretty much of a mensch (if a woman can
be a mensch?) <g>
GinjerB
Fuzzy
A big fat ditto post on all your points.
Also, as for the question of whether either Tessa married for money,
I'm guessing she had money to begin with. I'm going by the size of
Anthony Head's character's house. If her parents were hanging out with
people with that kind of money it seems likely they had money too.
Unless AH's parents were slumming.
Gabby
Ammaletu
> likes and respects Hawk. I think she's pretty much of a mensch (if a woman
can
> be a mensch?) <g>
My goodness, how many German words are there in the English language?!
Constructions like the above always really amuse me. *bg*
Just looks kind of strange to me to see the languages mingled like this, and
I always wonder if it means the same to an English speaking reader...
Bye,
Johannes
Ammaletu
> I'm guessing she had money to begin with. I'm going by the size of
> Anthony Head's character's house. If her parents were hanging out with
> people with that kind of money it seems likely they had money too.
> Unless AH's parents were slumming.
Not a bad point, but the way Tessa recalls her first christmas in this room
and how beautiful everything was - this really made the impression on me
that it was far more luxurious than her own home. Just my impression. I
think this is as far as we ever got to her family, anyway.
Besides, friendship does not always care for both side's bank acounts. Maybe
Tessa's and Alan's mothers were old friends, and only Alan's mother married
a wealthy man?! Just a thought.
Greetings,
Johannes
JDChronicler
German and Hebrew spoken by Jews of Eastern European origins.
Shomeret
(whose parents' first language was Yiddish)
JDChronicler
to have gone into a downward spiral into alcoholism. I've heard drunk people
singing so I know what they sound like. alternate Joe didn't sound drunk. He
sounded sober and competent.
Shomeret
Jerri
Assuming that you are referring to the word "mensch" ... I thought it was
Yiddish ... and it means good guy. To answer your question, English has
stolen and claimed many "foreign" words. It's one way a language grows
instead of becoming stagnant.
Jerri
GinjerB
(JDChronicler) writes:
>Subject: Re: Q re characters in last 2 episodes of the whole series
>From: jdchro...@aol.com (JDChronicler)
>Date: 17 Mar 2004 02:49:29 GMT
Even alcoholics aren't drunk all the time...
GinjerB
GinjerB
<nooneh...@invalid.com> writes:
>Subject: Re: Q re characters in last 2 episodes of the whole series
>From: "Jerri" <nooneh...@invalid.com>
>Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:36:23 -0600
Mensch is indeed yiddish. And I thought it had become common usuage, even
outside NYC! <g>
GinjerB
Jerri
> Mensch is indeed yiddish. And I thought
> it had become common usuage, even
> outside NYC! <g>
In the states, of course, but the question came from a .de addy .. what is
that? Germany? I dunno.
Jerri
Ammaletu
> In the states, of course, but the question came from a .de addy .. what is
> that? Germany? I dunno.
> Jerri
100 points for the candidate. ;-)
Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't know the word came to the English language via
Yiddish. Besides that, "Mensch" is a perfectly common German word, so it is
indeed of common usuage in my part of the world. *g*
And I figured from the context that it must mean pretty much the same as one
of its German meanings. Ok, "good guy" is not a direct hit, but it's close.
:-)
> To answer your question, English has
> stolen and claimed many "foreign" words.
> It's one way a language grows
> instead of becoming stagnant.
Yes, it's the same with the German language, we have our share of English,
French and other words. But it's nonetheless funny to see words from my own
language in English texts. Guess I saw too many of those lately (just think
"kindergarten"), so I had to post a comment... :-)
Greetings,
Johannes