the iolus paradox
the Free-abdal
dies in one universe so goes the double in the other.
so how the hell pardon my portuguese, can they bring in the character.
on another note i guess , i will miss the old iolus.
but if michael hurst could make the 1st one work, i have faith that he
will make the second one work, and some of us will enjoy this new
spin.
then again i see this fandom splitting into factions. over which is
the better character. whatever we will put the trekkies to shame.
FrasierFan
corners in which they either "kill off" characters, or have things happen with
NO explanation, my guess is that they'll CONVENIENTLY "forget" what they did
last year.
My whole problem with this "new Iolaus" idea is that:
1. "Jester" Iolaus wasn't ALL that appealing in the "Stranger in a Strange
Land" epiosde LAST year. Perhaps there's ANOTHER alternative universe out
there? :)
2. They did SUCH a hatchet job on the "old" Iolaus's "character". Seemed
almost like we were seeing the death of a character that never EXSISTED before,
not to mention dragging the whole thing OUT for half a season (effectively). I
actually would have been able to handle this whole "new character" if the
events of the first couple of episodes had been "it". Now.......
The sad irony to this whole thing? Kevin Sorbo and Michael Hurst have given
what are probably the BEST performances of the show to date this
season.......in an ill advised storyline. Now if they'd have had something
REALLY good to work with.
My only question now, will there BE a sixth season? Ratings are pretty much in
free fall, the show's being moved to LESS desirable time slots in major metro
areas in the US (it's being pre-empted in MY area this coming week).
I'd hate to see the end of the series come because of something that could have
been handled differently,
Suzanne
We have met the enemy, and it is SPAM!!!!!!!!
Susan M. Sanders
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
> Well, since the folks behind this show are famous for painting themselves into
> corners in which they either "kill off" characters, or have things happen with
> NO explanation, my guess is that they'll CONVENIENTLY "forget" what they did
> last year.
>
> My whole problem with this "new Iolaus" idea is that:
>
> 1. "Jester" Iolaus wasn't ALL that appealing in the "Stranger in a Strange
> Land" epiosde LAST year. Perhaps there's ANOTHER alternative universe out
> there? :)
>
> 2. They did SUCH a hatchet job on the "old" Iolaus's "character". Seemed
> almost like we were seeing the death of a character that never EXSISTED
before,
> not to mention dragging the whole thing OUT for half a season
(effectively). I
> actually would have been able to handle this whole "new character" if the
> events of the first couple of episodes had been "it". Now.......
>
> The sad irony to this whole thing? Kevin Sorbo and Michael Hurst have given
> what are probably the BEST performances of the show to date this
> season.......in an ill advised storyline. Now if they'd have had something
> REALLY good to work with.
This is one of those annoying "me too" posts. I'm just standing and
clapping--listen closely, you can probably hear it.
Brava, Suzanne. You said it!
me...@execpc.com
FrasierFan wrote:
> My only question now, will there BE a sixth season? Ratings are pretty much in
> free fall, the show's being moved to LESS desirable time slots in major metro
> areas in the US (it's being pre-empted in MY area this coming week).
>
They keep saying that there will be a third season. The only question is - will
anyone watch it? Especially if Kevin Sorbo doesn't return & they replace him with
a pro-wrestler!
Czaerana
>areas in the US (it's being pre-empted in MY area this coming week).
>
>
Herc & Xena have been moved 3 times this season here in Memphis--each time to a
worse timeslot.
Cynthia
Aethelrede
> They keep saying that there will be a third season.
Sounds odd to me, since the Fifth season is around halfway over: why
would anyone be promising a rerun of season 3? USA has already almost
finished showing season 3 reruns. Is there some point here I'm missing?
--
"Nomen amicitia est, nomen inane fides"
Ovid.
Susan M. Sanders
<Aethe...@worldnot.att.net> wrote:
> me...@execpc.com wrote:
> > They keep saying that there will be a third season.
It was just a brain blip; he (she? it?) meant sixth season.
Al
FrasierFan wrote:
> Well, since the folks behind this show are famous for painting themselves into
> corners in which they either "kill off" characters, or have things happen with
> NO explanation, my guess is that they'll CONVENIENTLY "forget" what they did
> last year.
>
> My whole problem with this "new Iolaus" idea is that:
>
> 1. "Jester" Iolaus wasn't ALL that appealing in the "Stranger in a Strange
> Land" epiosde LAST year. Perhaps there's ANOTHER alternative universe out
> there? :)
>
> 2. They did SUCH a hatchet job on the "old" Iolaus's "character". Seemed
> almost like we were seeing the death of a character that never EXSISTED before,
> not to mention dragging the whole thing OUT for half a season (effectively). I
> actually would have been able to handle this whole "new character" if the
> events of the first couple of episodes had been "it". Now.......
>
> The sad irony to this whole thing? Kevin Sorbo and Michael Hurst have given
> what are probably the BEST performances of the show to date this
> season.......in an ill advised storyline. Now if they'd have had something
> REALLY good to work with.
>
> My only question now, will there BE a sixth season? Ratings are pretty much in
> free fall, the show's being moved to LESS desirable time slots in major metro
> areas in the US (it's being pre-empted in MY area this coming week).
>
> I'd hate to see the end of the series come because of something that could have
> been handled differently,
> Suzanne
> We have met the enemy, and it is SPAM!!!!!!!!
I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Why kill Iolaus if they're going to
bring him back?
Jester-Iolaus was not a very likeable character, IMHO. He'll have to evolve pretty
quickly into someone who is *at least* as heroic/respectable/etc. as the old
Iolaus, but if that happens, why bother killing the guy in the first place?
A few months ago (when this whole ill-conceived idea came to light) I read posts in
this group that applauded the courage of TPTB for doing such a risky thing.
Bulls**t! A truly brave thing would've been to kill the guy and never have him
show his face again. Instead, they chose the safer way of "lets kill him but
<wink><wink> not really kill him."
Czaerana
pretty
quickly into someone who is *at least* as heroic/respectable/etc. as the old
Iolaus, but if that happens, why bother killing the guy in the first place?>>
Really! Knowing Michael Hurst would be back as ersatz-Iolaus killed all the
poignancy of the farewell scene at the end of "Redemption"!
Cynthia
Michael Martinez
Yeah, but we knew Patrick Swayze would make more movies, too, after
"Ghost".
--
\\ // Worlds of Imagination on the Web in...@xenite.org
\\// RealName: Science Fiction and Fantasy Xenite.Org
//\\ [http://www.xenite.org/index.htm]
// \\ENITE.org...............................................
Susan M. Sanders
(Michael Martinez) wrote:
> Yeah, but we knew Patrick Swayze would make more movies, too, after
> "Ghost".
But he wouldn't be making them looking exactly like his character in
"Ghost", right down to the costume, and playing opposite the character of
his wife from "Ghost". The "Ghost" story ended at the end of the movie;
Hercules goes on.
Movies and series tv are two entirely separate universes.
Czaerana
>(Michael Martinez) wrote:
>
>> Yeah, but we knew Patrick Swayze would make more movies, too, after
>> "Ghost".
>
>But he wouldn't be making them looking exactly like his character in
>"Ghost", right down to the costume, and playing opposite the character of
>his wife from "Ghost". The "Ghost" story ended at the end of the movie;
>Hercules goes on.
Right. My point was that knowing Michael Hurst would be back playing a
variation on Iolaus (the original) diluted the poignancy for me. It would have
been different if he were leaving the show.
Cynthia
Michael Martinez
>In article <78ieos$5ds$1...@camel19.mindspring.com>, Mic...@xenite.org
>(Michael Martinez) wrote:
>
>> Yeah, but we knew Patrick Swayze would make more movies, too, after
>> "Ghost".
>
>But he wouldn't be making them looking exactly like his character in
>"Ghost", right down to the costume, and playing opposite the character of
>his wife from "Ghost". The "Ghost" story ended at the end of the movie;
>Hercules goes on.
So, you're thinking that Jester-Iolaus will come into the series wearing
the same half-shirt as Warrior-Iolaus? Interesting. And it makes me
wonder if Jester-Iolaus' family had a similar history to Warrior-Iolaus'
family. I don't believe the jester wears the medallion that the warrior
inherited from his father Skouros.
>Movies and series tv are two entirely separate universes.
Ah, but H:TLJ seems to have a hard time discerning that! :)
FrasierFan
>>> "Ghost".
>>
>>But he wouldn't be making them looking exactly like his character in
>>"Ghost", right down to the costume, and playing opposite the character of
>>his wife from "Ghost". The "Ghost" story ended at the end of the movie;
>>Hercules goes on.
>
>So, you're thinking that Jester-Iolaus will come into the series wearing
>the same half-shirt as Warrior-Iolaus? Interesting. And it makes me
>wonder if Jester-Iolaus' family had a similar history to Warrior-Iolaus'
>family. I don't believe the jester wears the medallion that the warrior
>inherited from his father Skouros.
Ah, but the jester was the OPPOSITE of the "real" Iolaus (just as ever OTHER
"alt" character was the opposite of their "real" counterpart: Herc - hero,
Soverign - tyrant, Ares - God of War, Ares - God of Love, etc). Since the REAL
world Iolaus's family was dysfunctional, the "Alt" world's SHOULD be the
ultimate in loving (with dad as a FARMER instead of a general). Of course, we
ARE assumimg following a logical conclusion here - again something that's never
been a prereq. with Renaisssance, so the argument may be specious.
>>Movies and series tv are two entirely separate universes.
>
>Ah, but H:TLJ seems to have a hard time discerning that! :)
>
Finally, one of the most accurate things I've seen in a LONG time (and why
*I'M* so.....annoyed...about the way the "death of Iolaus" was handled). It's
a MOVIE solution, in the WRONG format. Thank you.
Suzanne
(Who STILL thinks they should just off EVERYONE in the "real" world and shoot
the "alt" universe as the series. Be MUCH more interesting)
Michael Martinez
>>>Movies and series tv are two entirely separate universes.
>>
>>Ah, but H:TLJ seems to have a hard time discerning that! :)
>>
>
>Finally, one of the most accurate things I've seen in a LONG time (and why
>*I'M* so.....annoyed...about the way the "death of Iolaus" was handled). It's
>a MOVIE solution, in the WRONG format. Thank you.
In all seriousness, I think it WAS a movie solution -- and they intended
that sort of solution all along. Maybe they didn't say, "Hey, let's start
with this Dahak guy on Xena and have Iolaus REALLY die on Hercules when he
is finally defeated". Rather, I think they decided that if they were going
to bring in a massively evil character like Dahak, that eventually someone
important would have to die in order to give the good guys a chance to win.
Could Hercules have succeeded with anyone OTHER than Iolaus? I don't think
so. Maybe that was their reasoning all along. The bond between Hercules
and Iolaus was stronger than the power of Dahak, and Hercules had to learn
that before he could actually go after Dahak. The bond between Xena and
Gabrielle was broken, or at least very strained -- they don't have the
history (yet) that Herc and Iolaus have.
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
> In all seriousness, I think it WAS a movie solution -- and they intended
> that sort of solution all along. Maybe they didn't say, "Hey, let's start
> with this Dahak guy on Xena and have Iolaus REALLY die on Hercules when he
> is finally defeated". Rather, I think they decided that if they were going
> to bring in a massively evil character like Dahak, that eventually someone
> important would have to die in order to give the good guys a chance to win.
"For each cat, a fine rat!" You have to give your hero an enemy equal to his
attention. Years and years ago, back in the sixties, DC comics ran a story
line that cumulated with Superman losing half of his overall power. This was
because Superman was too powerful for any reasonable enemies; heck, the old
Superman could do a handstand on the earth and push it out of orbit, so how
many bad guys could really stress him?
Hecules and Xena (to a lesser extent) both needed a powerful enemy and both
series needed some cohesion. The continuing sub-plots of Dahak and Hope
provided both. A nice bit of writing, providing the weaker actors in each
series (surprisingly, the stars) with the chances to stretch a bit.
Now Micheal Hurst (an excellent actor) will be able to take his character in
a new direction, while Kevin Sorbo got the chance to do a very nice turn on
the grief concept and will get to further push himself in having his
character deal with regaining his best friend … but not really.
>
> Could Hercules have succeeded with anyone OTHER than Iolaus? I don't think
> so. Maybe that was their reasoning all along. The bond between Hercules
> and Iolaus was stronger than the power of Dahak, and Hercules had to learn
> that before he could actually go after Dahak. The bond between Xena and
> Gabrielle was broken, or at least very strained -- they don't have the
> history (yet) that Herc and Iolaus have.
Er … actually, although that's a very nice character synopsis, it's the
chemistry between Kevin Sorbo and Michael Hurst that made the series a
success. A careful eye to the ratings of the first season led the producers
to make sure that Iolaus was Hercules' permanent partner. Not only did Hurst
provided a masterful comic foil for the more wooden Sorbo, but the basic
concept of a well-trained, but still very mortal man keeping pace with a
demi-god gave an entire underlying message to the series, one that viewer
reacted incredibly well to. (Note that when they spun Xena off, they were
careful to give her a female version of Iolaus. Not an identical character,
but one able to provide Xena with a diametric opposite, and played by an
actress talented enough to support Lucy Lawless' gray and gritty - and
somewhat one dimentional - acting.)
Then the writers and producers carefully loaded both series with good actors
playing interesting characters (Bruce Campbell, Kevin Smith, Hudson Leigh,
etc., etc.) for foils.
Actually, in a big way, neither series have been handled like traditional
television fodder, aside from the time limitations. From the first episodes,
they've had a movie feel about them for both production and post production
values (cheesy special effects notwithstanding). Careful casting of
experienced performers (with, again, the exception of the stars) and being
willing to toss traditional television concepts off a cliff have resulted in
an excellent run for both series.
Now, however, it's been five seasons; about the point where every television
series either redefines itself to stay fresh, or settles down to provide the
same old stuff up to a core group, one that is - hopefully - large enough to
support both shows. In this instance, both series decided to put their core
performers through some emotional backslaps and further push the sidekicks
(both killed - kinda - fighting the evil, yadda, yadda) through some major
changes, hoping for new chemistries and tensions.
But note, none of the changes either done or planned are irreversible!
Iolaus' fighting spirit can always take over the Jester-Iolaus' body and -
bam - we're back to the same old formula! The writers have been careful to
keep all options open here and, should the changes to the Iolaus character
not meet with fan - and sponsor - approval, it'll be back to the original so
fast, even Autolycus wouldn't be able to grab it.
In the mean time, enjoy watching a consummate professional. Hercules is
lucky to have Michael Hurst in any role - king, drag, jester, or original -
and we're lucky to have a chance to watch him ply his craft.
Jim
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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FrasierFan
would be 'breaking new ground" by doing something like this. It's a risk, a
calculated one. The problem *I'm* seeing is that they think they SUCCEEDED
(and STILL do apparently). The ratings are so far down, it's unreal. The
show's getting moved out of prime time slots for that reason. The reaction
from Renaissance: why are they moving our show? When you take risks you
realize there's potential UPSIDE and potential DOWNSIDE. Looks like THEY only
considered upside. Kind of childish, actually. ADULTS understand there's that
they CAN lose (and big) if they take the risk. They take it ANYWAY, and deal
with the consequences when things DON'T work out. To not even THINK they HAVE
a downside risk says to me they are more "full of their own conceit" than
anything else. (or can we say "you can dish it out, but you can't TAKE it"?)
BTW, I love your serious (NOT!) takes on some of the cliches that were doled
out during this whole, LONG winding road. It's fun (something the show USED to
be). :)
Suzanne
FrasierFan
>so. Maybe that was their reasoning all along. The bond between Hercules
>and Iolaus was stronger than the power of Dahak, and Hercules had to learn
>that before he could actually go after Dahak. The bond between Xena and
>Gabrielle was broken, or at least very strained -- they don't have the
>history (yet) that Herc and Iolaus have.
>
>
>
>
>
You know, looking at this again, Michael, that raises ANOTHER interesting point
(although who knows if they DO consider this stuff). Many Xena fans insist the
bond between Xena and Gab is stronger (taken however you want it to mean).
I've always felt the other way. KNOWING someone for your whole life would HAVE
to be the stronger attachment. Just wonder if the constructs of BOTH shows had
been different (Xena was about the "lifetime friends", while Herc was about
"taking someone under your wing"), would the Gabrielle character have been the
one to have been killed (of course, that would have put a....bizarre...spin on
the 'Hope' storyline? Ah well, angels dancing on the head of a pin, I suppose.
FrasierFan
DEFINITELY agree with you on the "Hercules IS lucky to have Michael Hurst"
comments. That kind of skill is rare. I've heard the man called "the Kenneth
Branaugh of New Zealand". It's VERY easy to see why. One of the reasons I DID
put up with some of the more "uneven" stuff LAST year was because I didn't want
to not see Hurst perform again.
I've already stated my "it was hard to believe the ENDING of the storyline"
here (and in other threads). Somehow LAUGHING at the "ultimate evil" was NOT
something I had in mind. Guess maybe *I* was looking for something more
"special effect oriented". No, I don't know WHAT, but there WAS a kind of
"unspectacular" feel about the whole thing (I thought of Peggy Lee's "Is that
all there is" while watching the Redemption ep, for some reason). The whole
"finale" just seemed a little rushed, after all the buildup.
I commented earlier here about the "shared history" idea. Actually, now,
NEITHER series will have any "I remember back in...." type dialogue or the "we
know what to do instinctively together scenes" (whether during fight scenes -
something never developed as well in Xena - yeah, I know the back-to-back flip
wouldn't really work as well, or elsewhere). Again, I could see using an "alt"
universe Iolaus (or Gabby, for that matter) to achieve that kind of thing
(perhaps somehow putting the memories of Iolaus in the Jester's body?). Not
necessarily the WHOLE personality (although Iolaus IS a whole lot funnier than
the Jester). Hey, Herc and Ares BOTH thought Jester was annoying, and Herc
would be the LAST to say something. :)
I'm also wondering how the "each individual dies in the OTHER universe when
their counterpart dies" is going to wash with the "Iolaus is gone to the
'light'" scenario.
The only hint of "no death" was the fact that Herc goes INTO the Dahak
possessed body, but we have NO idea how he gets back OUT. And where DID that
lifeless body go, anyway? I doubt Nebula and Morrigan moved it out of the
building before Herc got "out". It's not on the alter (where we LAST saw it).
No signs of "going to dust". Just "no body".
Ultimately, I think PART of the problem for me might be (and the thing that
keeps ME posting on this) will EITHER series have the TIME to "develop along
new lines"? Alot of "average viewers" have already gone, probably for good.
I've already noted both shows being moved out of desirable time slots.
That means the show's DEPENDING on "strangers" tuning in - see - "For Those of
You Just Joining Us". There AREN'T people coming back in in droves. I guess
I'm more concerned about the ultimate survival of the show, than what deux ex
machina is used to "shake up" things. Yeah, the series has ALWAYS toyed with
"not being conventional TV". The problem is there IS an undefined "line in the
sand" for most people. I have a feeling the "killing of an out of character
Iolaus" MAY have done it, here. There appears to have been conflict on the
actual killing even WITHIN the writing staff. Could a careful, more "mature"
Iolaus have been developed using almost THESE same story lines, but having the
"takeover (and even death)" only APPEAR to be "real". Herc could have STILL
done most of the things he did during the earlier episodes, thinking he'd lost
Iolaus forever. Well, I guess I'm just trying to keep the "shared history"
concept going here.
I KNOW a lot of people felt the "final" scene was less moving because they knew
SOME of the formula (at least) was coming back (those who didn't say "that's a
silly idea, why kill off the original character, then". It's alot easier to
"not become involved in the emotional ramifications" if you know there's going
to be a replacement (even if it IS the Jester). I've said it before here,
would they have been better off taking something like the "alt" world and
trying to use IT as the construct for a the "new" direction? Guess we'll never
know.
Some times I guess it's that you just see better ways of executing changes in
direction instead of what way was used. I think that's why there's so much
fan fiction around. And so much angst over the "killing of Iolaus". Trying to
"fix" something that didn't feel right. :) I was REALLY feeling good about
the whole "Dahok" story line thing until "Let There Be Light" then my
"suspension" of disbelief stopped. DON'T ask me why (other than what I've
already stated). :)
Just LOVING threads that make me think (and having a feeling THIS may turn out
better than the future of the show),
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
> I've already stated my "it was hard to believe the ENDING of the storyline"
> here (and in other threads). Somehow LAUGHING at the "ultimate evil" was NOT
> something I had in mind. Guess maybe *I* was looking for something more
> "special effect oriented". No, I don't know WHAT, but there WAS a kind of
> "unspectacular" feel about the whole thing (I thought of Peggy Lee's "Is that
> all there is" while watching the Redemption ep, for some reason). The whole
Ø "finale" just seemed a little rushed, after all the buildup.
Agreed, somewhat. At first, I was somewhat underwhelmed and disappointed.
Killing off the major talent of a series seemed like an event that demanded
Renaissance's very best … and then I realized that they did give us their very
best.
View the four episodes in order, _Faith,_ _Darkness Rising,_ _Let There be
Light,_ and _Redemption._ Ignore the in-between stuff and just study the four
that cover Iolaus' death, possession, and salvation.
They pretty much gave Michael Hurst - at least in the final three - a
motionless backdrop to perform against, didn't they? A showcase for his
acting, if you will.
Seems like they gave us the very best they had, after all.
>
> I commented earlier here about the "shared history" idea. Actually, now,
> NEITHER series will have any "I remember back in...." type dialogue or the "we
> know what to do instinctively together scenes" (whether during fight scenes -
> something never developed as well in Xena - yeah, I know the back-to-back flip
> wouldn't really work as well, or elsewhere). Again, I could see using an"alt"
> universe Iolaus (or Gabby, for that matter) to achieve that kind of thing
> (perhaps somehow putting the memories of Iolaus in the Jester's body?). Not
> necessarily the WHOLE personality (although Iolaus IS a whole lot funnier than
> the Jester). Hey, Herc and Ares BOTH thought Jester was annoying, and Herc
> would be the LAST to say something. :)
Again, agreed. The storyline - if you merge Xena with Hercules - has already
made it possible for one spirit to exist in another's body. Iolaus could
have existed in anyone's body, ala Xena in Autolycus. Of course, then they
would have had to come up with some silly-ass way to get his body living
again … and I am SO looking forward to Hurst's performances as the displaced
Jester learning to become a hero. Talk about handing a performer riches!
Hurst has already proven that he can take very unlikely characters and make
they three-dimensional … now he gets a shot at building one from just a broad
outline . . . what a lucky man.
>
> I'm also wondering how the "each individual dies in the OTHER universe when
> their counterpart dies" is going to wash with the "Iolaus is gone to the
> 'light'" scenario.
Personally, I think it has something to do with Iolaus not dying in Greece.
> The only hint of "no death" was the fact that Herc goes INTO the Dahak
> possessed body, but we have NO idea how he gets back OUT. And where DID that
> lifeless body go, anyway? I doubt Nebula and Morrigan moved it out of the
> building before Herc got "out". It's not on the alter (where we LAST saw it).
> No signs of "going to dust". Just "no body".
Interesting . . . mystical loophole or Renaissance screw-up. Hmmmmm .. I'd
have to go with a screw-up.
>
> Ultimately, I think PART of the problem for me might be (and the thing that
> keeps ME posting on this) will EITHER series have the TIME to "develop along
> new lines"? Alot of "average viewers" have already gone, probably for good.
> I've already noted both shows being moved out of desirable time slots.
(snip)
Yeah … under the current situations, I give Hercules two more seasons -
barring any miracles - and Xena two beyond that point. (Young Hercules? Who
cares!?) The series started with the entire Hera conflict (since resolved)
and Zeus emotional conflict (ditto, for the most part). In five seasons,
Hercules has married and lost, loved and lost, lusted and lost, fought and
won .. and won .. and won .. and won .. against a plethora of cheesy looking
special effects, egocentric gods, and enough cannon fodder to account for
every world war since.
For a while, I was convinced that the success of entire series hinged on
moving away from the " .. and Hercules killed yet another mythological
creature .. " and "Damn you, Hera/Zeus/Ares/Choose-your-favorite" storylines
.. but now I think that they'd better bring back Hera in a heck of a hurry
and drive a serious wedge between Zeus and Hercules again. Tell Kevin Smith
to get really dark and dangerous and bar Robert Trebor from the set for a
season or two. Get the post production Macintoshs up-graded to G3s and crank
out some really good special effects and mythological monsters.
How about this: Xena fought a priestess of "The Light," Najara (who I
originally had pegged as a possible replacement for Hudson Leick's Callisto),
and now the possessed Iolaus uses a false religion called "The Light," or
something close to it. Seems to be that a really good and evil story line
could be worked up there! Evil and dark and full of major third chords
In short, a serious change just might save the show for a second five year
run . . . but at the expense of a very large chunk of its fans. Sorbo would
have to play Hercules as mythology paints him (Half battle loving wacko and
half tormented man/god) and screw trying to make everybody play nice!
(But what's the chances, right?)
Okay, so we can't change the star … well, that leaves Iolaus.
Damnit.
>
> I KNOW a lot of people felt the "final" scene was less moving because theyknew
> SOME of the formula (at least) was coming back (those who didn't say "that's a
> silly idea, why kill off the original character, then". It's a lot easier to
> "not become involved in the emotional ramifications" if you know there's going
> to be a replacement (even if it IS the Jester). I've said it before here,
> would they have been better off taking something like the "alt" world and
> trying to use IT as the construct for a the "new" direction? Guess we'llnever
> know.
(Shrug) Works for me. Instead of going all grim and gritty, turn everyone's
character on it's ear and see if Hercules can undo the damage of his evil
counterpart . . . what the hell. It'll take something major to save the show
from its current spiral down, maybe that's it.
As for "emotional ramifications" . . . I was so pissed of at Renaissance when
they did that! Cut the legs right out from under Hurst! Hell's buckets, why
not just tack a plot synopsis onto the front of every show and give away
everything. They, Renaissance, should have kept a lid on it and just dealt
with the fan ire afterwards. Then, when the Jester/Iolaus popped up, dealt
with the fans again. (There is such a thing as being too customer oriented,
y'know!)
However, since I also use a mac, I am used to a superior product coming from a
terrible administrative company . . . so I guess my gripes don't really count.
FrasierFan
As my screenname pretty obviously indicates, I'm a fan of the show "Frasier" as
well. Guess I'm too used to a "superior product" in "superior administration"
(of course, they had some problems with THAT this season, as well). Suppose I
got spoiled. :)
>They pretty much gave Michael Hurst - at least in the final three - a
>motionless backdrop to perform against, didn't they? A showcase for his
>acting, if you will.
>
>Seems like they gave us the very best they had, after all.
That's one thing I REALLY didn't have a problem with in all this. The acting
during this season has been the best I think I've EVER seen on the show. This
means, definitely Hurst, and, to my surprise, Kevin Sorbo. I've been one of
those who always thought Sorbo was playing "himself". Glad to see he COULD
extend beyond the "gee whiz, I'm a swell guy" stuff. Even the direction was
well above par, as were many of the technical effects. Again, things just
started to go bad for me in LTBL. Redemption wasn't QUITE as bad, but there
was more a feeling, for me, of "this is just another evil I'm fighting against,
NOT the ULTIMATE evil in my best friend's face". A lot of problems THERE were
corrected by Redemption, but the "fighting the BEM" problem blew THAT ep, for
me, anyway.
>Hurst has already proven that he can take very unlikely characters and make
>they three-dimensional … now he gets a shot at building one from just a broad
>outline . . . what a lucky man.
>
>
No argument from me on this. That was one thing they did VERY right. If Dahak
HAD to be performed by one of their actors, they went with the best they had.
I STILL have problems SEEING him in some of the "bit" parts he's played, he
merges THAT well.
>Personally, I think it has something to do with Iolaus not dying in Greece.
That's possible. I notice the episode re-introducing the "alt" universe was
again written by Paul Coyle. I'm hoping he does a good job of explaining,
because I think he IS the best writer they've got.
>I give Hercules two more seasons -
>barring any miracles - and Xena two beyond that point.
I know the contracts on the shows are only until 2000. I have NO idea if
there'll be interest BEYOND then (or if the shows will be on anytime OTHER than
the middle of the night by then). :)
>For a while, I was convinced that the success of entire series hinged on
>moving away from the " .. and Hercules killed yet another mythological
>creature .. " and "Damn you, Hera/Zeus/Ares/Choose-your-favorite" storylines
>.. but now I think that they'd better bring back Hera in a heck of a hurry
>and drive a serious wedge between Zeus and Hercules again. Tell Kevin Smith
>to get really dark and dangerous
Now, I've thought Ares (as he was when first presented) would be the PERFECT
adversary (and he ends UP that way in a lot of the fan fiction out there). Of
course, the Dahak storyline kind of diluted HIS charater, as well. Not being a
Xena fan, I didn't realize that MOST of this had occured on THAT show, last
season.
>As for "emotional ramifications" . . . I was so pissed of at Renaissance when
>they did that! Cut the legs right out from under Hurst! Hell's
buckets, why
>not just tack a plot synopsis onto the front of every show and give away
>everything. They, Renaissance, should have kept a lid on it and just dealt
>with the fan ire afterwards. Then, when the Jester/Iolaus popped up, dealt
>with the fans again.
I think that's my problem with this. There's this impression SOMEWHERE at
Renaissance that playing mind games is a great thing. So MANY people (either
not online, or AWARE of what's going on for other reasons) are ASSUMING that
the "Iolaus dies at Dahak's hands" storyline is because Michael Hurst was
LEAVING the show. Since it's NOT true, I'm wondering how much MORE viewer
dropoff will occur when the Jester's introduced, and the "basic formula" isn't
changed.
Ah well, the future of this show WILL be interesting, just don't know for sure
yet if I'm going to be along for the ride,
the Free-abdal
do what b5 did more or less, in season 5
kill gabby
develop the characters
kill gabby
go soul searching
and
kill gabby
"better dead than smeg."
- the Free-abdal
to email me delete ".delete"
Susan M. Sanders
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
> >Personally, I think it has something to do with Iolaus not dying in Greece.
>
> That's possible. I notice the episode re-introducing the "alt" universe was
> again written by Paul Coyle. I'm hoping he does a good job of explaining,
> because I think he IS the best writer they've got.
Would that it were so, Susanne. Paul Coyle did do the story, but "comic
book writer Gerry Conway", as they describe him, did the teleplay. So,
they imported somebody from another universe to write this episode about
another universe, eh? Paul Coyle, having written Stranger in a Strange
World and the Armageddon episodes, certainly had the credentials to write
this one (and I was hoping he had--agree with you about the eps he's
written), but sounds like they decided to go another way. Doesn't bode
well to me. We'll see. This is the one that they had talked about doing
in 3D (can you say gimmick?)--at least they decided to forget about that.
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
> I REALLY love our dialogue on this one, Jim. You make some really good points.
I get lucky sometimes.
(snip)
> >Seems like they gave us the very best they had, after all.
>
> That's one thing I REALLY didn't have a problem with in all this. The acting
> during this season has been the best I think I've EVER seen on the show. This
> means, definitely Hurst, and, to my surprise, Kevin Sorbo. I've been one of
> those who always thought Sorbo was playing "himself". Glad to see he COULD
> extend beyond the "gee whiz, I'm a swell guy" stuff. Even the direction was
> well above par, as were many of the technical effects. Again, things just
> started to go bad for me in LTBL. Redemption wasn't QUITE as bad, but there
> was more a feeling, for me, of "this is just another evil I'm fightingagainst,
> NOT the ULTIMATE evil in my best friend's face". A lot of problems THERE were
> corrected by Redemption, but the "fighting the BEM" problem blew THAT ep, for
> me, anyway.
Well, the physical manfestation of Dahak (or however you spell that name)
pretty much had to end up a BEM-ish one, I just wish they'd worked a little
harder on it ... perhaps like the nasties that were invented for the movie
version of _Spawn._
As for Kevin Sorbo, he does have more ability than he is generally called
upon to use in the series (were you one of the twenty-seven people who saw
_Kull?_), and has improved considerably by working with Hurst. However, he
was cast in the original tv movies for his looks as much as his acting and,
as is his due as official star of the series, his character is built around
himself. (For past precedent, see any Burt Reynolds movie or tv series.
Sorry, but it is the best example of this other than the early Schwartenegger
films, and I'd never advise anyone to sit through those again!) " Yet, he
does has hidden depths. He does a very nice take on "smitten" and "head over
heels" as far as romance goes and he is all over ever scene that has a kid in
it! His version of insane rage (aka, his evil counterpart) seems to be based
on bellowing the last word of every other sentence fraqment ("Not HAPPY!!"
"DISAPPOINTED!!!") AND PLAY ... ahem, excuse me ... and playing the non-
bellowing scenes with a very poor Kevin Smith impression.
On the other hand, he simply reeks of sincerity and modest nobility, which
just might be exactly what the character needs (as the success of the series
indicates). Let's not forget that this is an action series and, as such, the
dramatic aspects take second place to Kevin Sorbo doing that predictable
trademark "grab his arm, roll over his back while kicking the guy behind him,
then deck him" move.
As for the directing, did you note that Bruce Campbell was the director for
_Redemption?_ Another point of light for the series, Campbell is a great deal
like Hurst, in that he is a director as well as an actor. Being such, he let
Hurst's performance carry the episode.
>
> >Hurst has already proven that he can take very unlikely characters and make
> >they three-dimensional … now he gets a shot at building one from just a broad
> >outline . . . what a lucky man.
>
> No argument from me on this. That was one thing they did VERY right. IfDahak
> HAD to be performed by one of their actors, they went with the best they had.
> I STILL have problems SEEING him in some of the "bit" parts he's played, he
> merges THAT well.
True and true, again. Hurst does not play a part, he wears it like a suit.
Iolaus, his cousin the king, Widow Wankley (who he as also done on stage),
the boozy writer of the series ... Hurst makes each role believeable. Sorbo
playing a role, regardless of his improvement, is Sorbo playing a role. He
is still himself. Hurst becomes the roll and, even the really camp and silly
ones, makes them unique people. The very mark of a great actor.
>
> >Personally, I think it has something to do with Iolaus not dying in Greece.
>
> That's possible. I notice the episode re-introducing the "alt" universe was
> again written by Paul Coyle. I'm hoping he does a good job of explaining,
> because I think he IS the best writer they've got.
No argument there, he's written some of my favorite episodes.
>
> >I give Hercules two more seasons -
> >barring any miracles - and Xena two beyond that point.
>
> I know the contracts on the shows are only until 2000. I have NO idea if
> there'll be interest BEYOND then(or if the shows will be on anytime OTHER than
> the middle of the night by then). :)
Well, let's recap ... Sorbo's movie bit the big one (both as a performance
and at the box) and nobody seems to be hailing Lawless as the next Greta
Garbo ... I assume that the two of them have enough sense to resign, if
offered. I suppose, and this is just a supposition, that the series could
keep going if - like _Sliders_ and so many others - they were sold outright
to one of the cable channels. Perhaps the USA network would enjoy owning the
series? This would mean salary drops across the board (another assumption
with no basis in actual knowledge), but could keep the principles (who, like
the stars, have nothing else going at the moment) happy enough to keep
cranking it out for a few more years.
A thought for the faithful to hold dear to, eh?
>
(snip)
>
> >As for "emotional ramifications" . . . I was so pissed of at Renaissance when
> >they did that! Cut the legs right out from under Hurst! Hell's buckets, why
> >not just tack a plot synopsis onto the front of every show and give away
> >everything. They, Renaissance, should have kept a lid on it and just dealt
> >with the fan ire afterwards. Then, when the Jester/Iolaus popped up, dealt
> >with the fans again.
>
> I think that's my problem with this. There's this impression SOMEWHERE at
> Renaissance that playing mind games is a great thing. So MANY people (either
> not online, or AWARE of what's going on for other reasons) are ASSUMING that
> the "Iolaus dies at Dahak's hands" storyline is because Michael Hurst was
> LEAVING the show. Since it's NOT true, I'm wondering how much MORE viewer
> dropoff will occur when the Jester's introduced, and the "basic formula" isn't
> changed.
When your show is predictable, playing with the fans minds might be the only
way to build buzz left. I suppose they were trying to build buzz by giving
away the entire plot line and, let's be honest, it did generate quite a bit
of comment ... but this is no replacement for good writing, good acting, good
effects, good direction, and good old fashioned pr. Teasers are okay and
time honored. Toss a few teasers to the masses, let them make their own
false (or even true) assumptions as to what it means, and the buzz generates
on it's own. Even those pissed will tune in to see if they were right,
right?
One of the major problems to this is the web. Too many crewmembers or other
insiders leaking to various groups. There is a rumor that one successful show
actually has a designated leaker, now. One of their writers actually pretends
to be a crewmember and leaks good teasers to fan groups on the web, then keeps
the buzz going in the right direction. But that's beside the point.
I was taught, back in my military days, that three people cannot keep a
secret. Leaks happen and the more people involved with a production, the more
leaks. Then there are those poor saps who want to look big and make phoney
leaks, pretending to be on the inside. As a result, you have plot leaks from
people who hold the lights, people who paint the backdrops, people who get
the stars something to drink and people who have even less to do with it than
that!
Add this input to the official interviews (often peppered with deliberatly
misleading comments) and releases (ditto) ... well, frankly, I have no idea
how anyone can assume they have the slightest idea what's going to happen
next.
>
> Ah well, the future of this show WILL be interesting, just don't know for sure
> yet if I'm going to be along for the ride,
What? You have something better to do at midnight on Sundays? Suz, with the
advent of cable tv and vcrs, there is no such thing as a bad time slot and
producters (and, more importantly, sponsors) are begining to understand this.
So what if the show is broadcast at 0200? Set the vcr, hit the pit, and watch
it when you want to.
The only down side to this is that you have to avoid the newsgroups until you
see it, so it will be fresh. No real big deal.
You watch. Sometime in the next couple of years, a lot of really good stuff
will be broadcast during the wee hours of the night and sponsored by the big
boys.
Jim
(I just hope Hercules is one of them.)
Vesta
> "comic
> book writer Gerry Conway", as they describe him, did the teleplay. So,
> they imported somebody from another universe to write this episode about
> another universe, eh?
Great -- now they're gonna retcon Hercules....*sigh* All we need now
is for Hercules to have his friend taken away and replaced by someone
who looks exactly like him but from a different timeline which, since he
knows him, will never actually come to be....
Oh...it's already happened. Never mind.
Vesta, not wanting to picture Rachel Summers as Mneomsyne....
--
Speaking only for myself and my evil twin Skippy.
Michael Martinez
>Susan M. Sanders wrote:
>> "comic book writer Gerry Conway", as they describe him, did the teleplay.
>> So, they imported somebody from another universe to write this episode
>> about another universe, eh?
>
>Great -- now they're gonna retcon Hercules....*sigh* All we need now
>is for Hercules to have his friend taken away and replaced by someone
>who looks exactly like him but from a different timeline which, since he
>knows him, will never actually come to be....
I've seen the term "retcon" before but cannot remember what it's supposed
to mean.
>Oh...it's already happened. Never mind.
But only in Jason's dreams, in which all his friends and loved ones die in
a plane crash....
FrasierFan
corner somwhere. :)
Anyway, further thoughts/ramblings/etc,
>I get lucky sometimes.
Not touching THAT with a ten foot pole. :)
>His version of insane rage (aka, his evil counterpart) seems to be based
>on bellowing the last word of every other sentence fraqment ("Not HAPPY!!"
>"DISAPPOINTED!!!") AND PLAY ... ahem, excuse me ... and playing the non-
>bellowing scenes with a very poor Kevin Smith impression.
>
You know, I've been wondering how Smith would have handled the "Dahak" scenes
(probably the next most capable actor of "pulling the thing off" on Herc)?
>As for the directing, did you note that Bruce Campbell was the director for
>_Redemption?_ Another point of light for the series, Campbell is a great
>deal
>like Hurst, in that he is a director as well as an actor. Being such, he let
>Hurst's performance carry the episode.
I've notced the the best "letting the actor DO what they do best" directors ARE
themselves actors. Wonder if that's empathy at work? On another note, wonder
how difficult Michael found directing his "death scene" the first time, in
"Faith". I would think THAT would be tough, but then, if he can do Widow
Twanky and direct the SAME episode, it can't be too hard. :)
FrasierFan
Anyway, to continue,
>Hurst becomes the roll and, even the really camp and silly
>ones, makes them unique people. The very mark of a great actor.
>
I think it would be fascinating to see Hurst at work with someone along the
lines of a Brannaugh or Derek Jacobi. Of course, it'll never happen, but just
imagaine.....WOW!!!!
FrasierFan
THIS is it. :(
Part 3 in a continuing saga,
>Perhaps the USA network would enjoy owning the
>series? This would mean salary drops across the board (another assumption
>with no basis in actual knowledge), but could keep the principles (who, like
>the stars, have nothing else going at the moment) happy enough to keep
>cranking it out for a few more years.
I don't know. It MIGHT be a good idea, but this whole "Dahak" storyline almost
seems like a "series ender" (which is why I'm wondering why they ran it SO
soon, if both shows want to go another year). The "holding pattern" Xena
appears to be in kind of proves this out. After the "big storyline" where
exactly DO you go? Kind of why I'm "ultimately" ticked off at the Renaissance
people. I went from being "into" one show in which the "oops, we blew it came
EARLY, and they've since started the correct". Everyone was worked up for
awhile, but it was ok, eventually. I come over here, and WWIII is WELL in
progress, with NO signs of abating. There's indication Renaissance still
thinks they're doing the right thing,, but CAN'T understand why their shows are
getting moved to less desirable timeslots. And yes, I DO hate that kind of
atmosphere in corporate culture as well. Running in circles is NO fun, and
gets you nowhere. Just my personal pet peeve, I guess.
RE: the whole "leaks" issue. Now THERE would have been the time to try to
"straighten things out" when the "leaks" were getting out of hand. I get the
impression all the "hollering" started last MARCH on the Universal Studios
Netforum (the show's official website) when the first "Iolaus is going to be
killed off next season" rumor hit. So, this whole.....thing's.....been going
on for almost a year now, has LOTS of negative publicity, STILL plenty of
people "out of the loop" that ASSUME the actor left (well, not THIS year, at
least) or that "since they always come back from the dead, he will too", or a
bunch of little kids for whom their "hero" is now a boogeyman. Can we say
"blunder of immesurable proportions" here? :)
>What? You have something better to do at midnight on Sundays? Suz, with the
>advent of cable tv and vcrs, there is no such thing as a bad time slot and
>producters (and, more importantly, sponsors) are begining to understand this.
Call me old fashioned. I'm old enough to actually REMEMBER when there was no
such thing as a VCR(?). Seemed liked it was a THRILL to look forward to your
favorite show being on at a "certain" time when I was a kid. Call me silly, I
STILL like getting that thrill. 2 AM is NOT a thrill (at least not for a TV
show). :)
Well, I WILL probably watch the "Stranger" ep (and "Just Passing" - I NEED a
"fun" memory of the OLD Iolaus), after that........we'll see.
BTW, so the "sailor" thing really IS Navy, huh? :)
Suzanne
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
> I KNEW there was a reason I was trying to use my ISP more than my AOL account.
> THIS is it. :(
> I don't know. It MIGHT be a good idea, but this whole "Dahak" storyline almost
> seems like a "series ender" (which is why I'm wondering why they ran it SO
> soon, if both shows want to go another year). The "holding pattern" Xena
> appears to be in kind of proves this out. After the "big storyline" where
> exactly DO you go? Kind of why I'm "ultimately" ticked off at the Renaissance
> people. I went from being "into" one show in which the "oops, we blew it came
> EARLY, and they've since started the correct". Everyone was worked up for
> awhile, but it was ok, eventually. I come over here, and WWIII is WELL in
> progress, with NO signs of abating. There's indication Renaissance still
> thinks they're doing the right thing, but CAN'T understand why their shows are
> getting moved to less desirable timeslots. And yes, I DO hate that kind of
> atmosphere in corporate culture as well. Running in circles is NO fun, and
> gets you nowhere. Just my personal pet peeve, I guess.
Well, okay .. first things, first.
After the "big storyline" you go on to either the next "big storyline" or the
"bigger storyline." In series writing, you use these sort of things to move
your series onto a new plane, a new level, or a new concept. Okay, the
Hercules/Xena seriews are action based, but they incorporate the basic
concepts of every soap opera and cliff hanger that's come down the pipe since
H. Hornblower was popular.
It works like this: Each principle has 3 subplots to resolve; personal,
interpersonal, and outside. Take Iolaus for example. He resented the fact
that he lived in Hercules' shadow and hated the fact that he felt that way.
This charactor subplot has been running almost as long as the show. His
personal subplot was his constant battle to be his own hero and to deal with
his interpersonal subplot; his resentment of his relationship with Hercules.
As for his outside subplot, it changed from week to week with the action
going on around him. How he related to that weeks gueststars and so forth.
Now .. how many storylines dealt with his personal and team subplots? Quite a
few, right? Were they ever resolved? Not until _Reserection,_ right? Big
storyline concludes with a major series change of concept.
Another example: Hercules, himself. Personal subplot: Dealing with his inner
demons regarding the gods/the loss of his wife and kids due to same.
Interpersonal subplot: Dealing with Hera and Zeus. Both resolved in a big
storyline of his mother dieing and Zeus making him a full god and leading into
the next big storyline.
Big storyline leads to big storyline leads to Iolaus/Jester popping up. Along
the way, new series subplots and new principle subplots crop up and are either
resolved or stored up for the next big storyline.
Will Hercules betray his commitment to mortals by becoming a god? Tune in
next season. Will Iolaus be lost forever? Tune in next week. And so forth
and so on and tons of soap get sold. Cha-ching.
As for the general cluelessness of Renaissance ... it do present a
puzzlement, don't it? How the heck could an apparent truckload of dolts
crank out such good stuff?!? Okay, either we have to believe that they are
incredibly lucky or actually have some idea what they are doing ... and I'm
not sure which scares me more. If I believe the luck concept, then it means
that the luck will run out and the series will crash. If I go with the
latter, however, it means that they are doing all this on purpose and that
don't make any sort of sense.
>
> RE: the whole "leaks" issue. Now THERE would have been the time to try to
> "straighten things out" when the "leaks" were getting out of hand. I get the
> impression all the "hollering" started last MARCH on the Universal Studios
> Netforum (the show's official website) when the first "Iolaus is going to be
> killed off next season" rumor hit. So, this whole.....thing's.....been going
> on for almost a year now, has LOTS of negative publicity, STILL plenty of
> people "out of the loop" that ASSUME the actor left (well, not THIS year, at
> least) or that "since they always come back from the dead, he will too", or a
> bunch of little kids for whom their "hero" is now a boogeyman. Can we say
> "blunder of immesurable proportions" here? :)
Okay .. "'blunder of immesurable proportions' here." Wasn't that hard ...
howabout "Xena sells zithers slightly silly" three times, fast?
The time to plug leaks is when they first show up ... and then the best that
can be done is damage control. Buzz is buzz and, as the old saying goes,
their ain't no such thing as bad exposure. Tsk, tsk and better luck next
time, guys.
>
> >What? You have something better to do at midnight on Sundays? Suz, with the
> >advent of cable tv and vcrs, there is no such thing as a bad time slot and
> >producters (and, more importantly, sponsors) are begining to understand this.
>
> Call me old fashioned. I'm old enough to actually REMEMBER when there was no
> such thing as a VCR(?). Seemed liked it was a THRILL to look forward to your
> favorite show being on at a "certain" time when I was a kid. Call me silly, I
> STILL like getting that thrill. 2 AM is NOT a thrill (at least not for a TV
> show). :)
Now, now ... you can still get that trill. Just watch the tape at the same
time each week, say right after work the next day.
>
> Well, I WILL probably watch the "Stranger" ep (and "Just Passing" - I NEED a
> "fun" memory of the OLD Iolaus), after that........we'll see.
Ummm ... Suz? "Stranger?" "Just Passing?" Excuse me, Madam, but what are
you talking about?
>
> BTW, so the "sailor" thing really IS Navy, huh? :)
Well, Coast Guard .. but you couldn't have known that, so I'll let you live.
Jim
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
> Hey, Jim. I think we MAY need to take this little "love fest" off into a
> corner somwhere. :)
Madam! I'll have you know that I'm a happily married Sailor ... but what did
you have in mind? `:)
(snip)
>
> You know, I've been wondering how Smith would have handled the "Dahak" scenes
> (probably the next most capable actor of "pulling the thing off" on Herc)?
Quietly. Softly. With bursts of dark rage. Irony tinting his glares and
fire crisping his every move. (Gee, that would have been fun!)
(An aside: "Hey! You forgot your chicken!" Have you even seen a better take
than when he stalked over the the transformed god, picked her up, tucked her
under his arm, and then tossed his head with petulant ire before disappearing?
Still floors me whenever the episode plays.)
> I've notced the the best"letting the actor DO what they do best" directors ARE
> themselves actors. Wonder if that's empathy at work? On another note, wonder
> how difficult Michael found directing his "death scene" the first time, in
> "Faith". I would think THAT would be tough, but then, if he can do Widow
> Twanky and direct the SAME episode, it can't be too hard. :)
He's directed himself in Hamlet, I hear ... everything else is downhill.
Jim
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
> Ooops, I accidently sent the last message before I'd finished (I LOVE AOL).
>
> Anyway, to continue,
>
> >ones, makes them unique people. The very mark of a great actor.
> >
> lines of a Brannaugh or Derek Jacobi. Of course, it'll never happen, but just
> imagaine.....WOW!!!!
Give it time. Branagh knows of Hurst (and might even know him personally,
but my contacts are fuzzy on this) and has seen him perform. They will work
together, eventually. (I mean, Branagh worked Billy Crystal and Robin
Williams into Hamlet ... I think it's a sign he intends to work with everyone
eventually.)
Hurst has been in six movies, several television series (including a turn on
the classic _The Prisoner_ and a few roles in _The Ray Bradbury Theatre_),
and has so many stage performances under his belt, both as performer and
director, that he really should be sick and tired of it.
I am convinced that, should he really wish to, he could work with anyone he
wanted.
Jim
Czaerana
>the classic _The Prisoner_
You mean the masterpiece of Patrick McGoohan?! That was late 60's early '70's.
How old was Michael?
BTW, I adore that show!
Cynthia
Michael Martinez
>Hurst has been in six movies, several television series (including a turn on
>and has so many stage performances under his belt, both as performer and
>director, that he really should be sick and tired of it.
>
>I am convinced that, should he really wish to, he could work with anyone he
>wanted.
I truly believe that Michael Hurst is one of the best actors working today.
I would put him up against anyone else in the field, and even the "greats"
of the past, although he might not achieve the same reputation they did.
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
czae...@aol.com (Czaerana) wrote:
> >Hurst has been in six movies, several television series (including a turn on
> >the classic _The Prisoner_
>
Umm ... no.
I mean the Australian series. It's a cult classic all over most the world.
The series took place in Wentworth, a high-security female prison in
Australia, and was about the prisoners, the staff, and their lives both in
and out of prison.
> How old was Michael?
I believe he was on the show for it's 1979 season, but might be mistaken by a
year or two. So .. lessee, he was born in 1957, right? He would have been in
his early twenties.
> BTW, I adore that show!
The BBC _The Prisoner,_ right? Me, too. (But if you ever see videotapes for
the other, also released under the titles of _Caged Women_ and _Prisoner:
Cell Block H,_ give it a look. You won't regret it.)
FrasierFan
a possiblity this one won't end up in a circle with everyone back where they
started, which seems to be where the OTHER major thread in this NG is, right
now):
I'm going to do something Renaissance doesn't seem inclined to and attempt to
correct MY mistake by replying to Jim's responses to my last THREE posts (which
should have been only one), in ONE post. Bare with me on this. Most of the
other stuff is just "additional" comments, anyway.
>Madam! I'll have you know that I'm a happily married Sailor ... but what did
you have in mind? `:)
No problem. I do NOT propostion those with....previous commitments. Nor do I
run a house of ill repute. :) (Madam? Makes me sound like my mom, there) :)
>Quietly. Softly. With bursts of dark rage. Irony tinting his glares and
fire crisping his every move. (Gee, that would have been fun!)
>(An aside: "Hey! You forgot your chicken!" Have you even seen a better take
than when he stalked over the the transformed god, picked her up, tucked her
under his arm, and then tossed his head with petulant ire before disappearing?
Still floors me whenever the episode plays.)
I've been wondering where the whole "Dahak" thing would have gone if, instead
of having Ares as an opponent in the end, an "unholy" alliance between Herc and
Ares would have occured to get rid of Dahak and, inadvertantly for Ares,
anyway, have actually SAVED Iolaus. Personally, I think it might have been
more interesting, but another "road not taken", so we'll never know.
>He's directed himself in Hamlet, I hear ... everything else is downhill.
Yeah, he did A LOT of self direction on stage (also, directed Smith in Othello.
One assumes Smith played Othello). It's just a different medium with the
cameras. I just wondered if it WAS different "dying" and doing the setup..
>Give it time. Branagh knows of Hurst (and might even know him personally,
but my contacts are fuzzy on this) and has seen him perform. They will work
together, eventually. (I mean, Branagh worked Billy Crystal and Robin
Williams into Hamlet ... I think it's a sign he intends to work with everyone
eventually.)
You're right here, Jim. If someone like ME can clue into how great Hurst is,
surely it would be OBVIOUS to someone on his OWN professional level. Think
that's one of the GREAT things about Hercules. An actor LIKE Hurst, who lives
in a "low profile" country like NZ has gotten MUCH more exposure than he might
have, otherwise (this is also true of someone like Kevin Smith). I just hope
those of us in the US (among other countries) will be able to CONTINUE to see
him AFTER 1) the show ends its run (whenever that is) or 2) he leaves the
Renaissance company (whenever THAT is).
>After the "big storyline" you go on to either the next "big storyline" or
the
>"bigger storyline." In series writing, you use these sort of things to move
>your series onto a new plane, a new level, or a new concept. Okay, the
>Hercules/Xena seriews are action based, but they incorporate the basic
>concepts of every soap opera and cliff hanger that's come down the pipe since
>H. Hornblower was popular.
Ok, it's been ages since my college "drama" classes, and everyday life DOESN'T
really require me to use ANY of it, so I know I'm rusty on a lot of this stuff.
My impression is that Herc is more or less going back to the "individual
episode" format, no MORE "big story arcs". This was IT. Now, this COULD
change, or even there could be SMALL story lines, but nothing "on a big scale"
like the "Dahak" thing.
Could this result in the enui that Xena seems to be experiencing now? Have to
wait and see, I guess. I just have some kind of feeling the new writers
"couldn't" write for the old Iolaus (for whatever reason) and decided to
"recreate" the character. Not necessarily a BAD thing, when your best actor's
playing him, but it DOES create some problems (as we've seen), if not executed
properly (and THAT can be its OWN fine line).
>As for the general cluelessness of Renaissance ... it do present a
>puzzlement, don't it?
Well, my feelings on how Renaissance handled the whole situation ARE already
known. I just used my most recent experience with a DIFFERENT production
company on how "changes" could be handled. It's almost a "night" and "day"
experience. Perhaps Ren. is a "split personality" company. Who knows? :)
No further comment on how the "leak" situation was handled. We seem to BOTH
think this was a tactical error, so......
>Now, now ... you can still get that trill. Just watch the tape at the same
>time each week, say right after work the next day.
I know, but it's STILL not the same as seeing it "live". Sniff.....:)
>Ummm ... Suz? "Stranger?" "Just Passing?" Excuse me, Madam, but what are
>you talking about?
Sorry, I should have been more clear here. "Stranger and Stranger" is THIS
week's episode. It re-introduces the "alt" universe, and one presumes Herc's
NEW sidekick, the Jester.
Small spoiler...............
(A key character dies - well, THIS is a new angle).
"Just Passing Through" is an episode with the OLD Iolaus. Herc reflects on "A
Day in the Life" with his old, late friend. BTW, the way Ren. was promoting
THIS one, made it LOOK like the "old" Iolaus was back. Yet ANOTHER mind game
to try to "lure in people"? Seems to have TICKED off people, but I digress.
This ep will be airing in the next couple of weeks.
And, just to end this on an UP note (and before it becomes "War and Peace"):
>Well, Coast Guard .. but you couldn't have known that, so I'll let you live.
So Coast Guard's military now.......interesting. Thanks for letting me
live...means you must not work for a TV production company we both know. :)
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
frasi...@aol.com (FrasierFan) wrote:
(snip)
Okay, let's see if we can bag this in one and just do the answers, not the
previously posted questions and such.
Yes. No, I cannot agree. Yup. Okay, I'm willing to accept that. No, I
didn't know that.
Toss in an old fashioned "I dunno" and I think we have it handled.
Okay, I give up ... where the heck are you learning the titles and plot
breakdowns of episodes yet to come? Surely not the official site?
Jim
(P.S. The Coast Guard, Madam, is the oldest continuous military service in
the United States and only the USMC is it's elder in total years.)
Susan M. Sanders
> Okay, I give up ... where the heck are you learning the titles and plot
> breakdowns of episodes yet to come? Surely not the official site?
Well, Whoosh! is pretty far behind (www.whoosh.org), so I'd say at this
point probably the best place is www.tvgrid.com. It's a tv show listing
service, you know, an on-line TV Guide sort of thing, but it lists shows a
full month in advance, usually updated around the 15th of each month (that
is, right now it shows all of February and somewhere around February 15th,
it'll show up to the end of March). Other info has been garnered from a
variety of sources, formal and informal. Usually by the Sunday of each
week, you can also see a full description of each episode at
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Boulevard/7123/spoilers.htm; that is,
the description for Stranger and Stranger, which most of us will be seeing
next week-end (except those watching on WGN, who will see it the following
week-end) was posted yesterday.
FrasierFan
>point probably the best place is www.tvgrid.com. It's a tv show listing
>service, you know, an on-line TV Guide sort of thing, but it lists shows a
>full month in advance, usually updated around the 15th of each month (that
>is, right now it shows all of February and somewhere around February 15th,
>it'll show up to the end of March). Other info has been garnered from a
>variety of sources, formal and informal. Usually by the Sunday of each
>week, you can also see a full description of each episode at
>http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Boulevard/7123/spoilers.htm; that is,
>the description for Stranger and Stranger, which most of us will be seeing
>next week-end (except those watching on WGN, who will see it the following
>week-end) was posted yesterday.
>
>
>
Thanks, Sue:
I was going to reply to Jim while I'm on lunch break, but you gave him the URL
for the "Spoiler" webpage. Just to add, you can also subscribe to the
hercspoiler mailing list from this site (same spoilers, it just usually comes
out before it's up on the site).
Actually, there were apparently clips shown at the Santa Monica convention last
weekend of "Just Passing Through".
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
"Just" appears to be a similar episode to something on Xena a few years back "A
Day in the Life", about an "average" day in the life of Herc and the OLD
Iolaus. It appears, considering it will be NEXT week's episode to be Herc
"reminiscing" about his "counterpart" to his "new" sidekick" - Jester Iolaus.
It may be very funny, and, depending on events, may be the LAST of the
"original" Iolaus that's on the show.
The "spoiler" I referred to earlier (ie, death of ANOTHER character) shouldn't
be too hard to figure out if you accept the H/I "bond" as two souls whose lives
are intertwined by fate. The OTHER soul comes back to "our" world with the
"real" Hercules.
sailo...@my-dejanews.com
ssan...@umich.edu (Susan M. Sanders) wrote:
> In article <794j63$2sm$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, sailo...@my-dejanews.com
wrote:
>
> > Okay, I give up ... where the heck are you learning the titles and plot
> > breakdowns of episodes yet to come? Surely not the official site?
>
> point probably the best place is www.tvgrid.com. It's a tv show listing
> service, you know, an on-line TV Guide sort of thing, but it lists shows a
> full month in advance, usually updated around the 15th of each month (that
> is, right now it shows all of February and somewhere around February 15th,
> it'll show up to the end of March). Other info has been garnered from a
> variety of sources, formal and informal. Usually by the Sunday of each
> week, you can also see a full description of each episode at
> http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Boulevard/7123/spoilers.htm; that is,
> the description for Stranger and Stranger, which most of us will be seeing
> next week-end (except those watching on WGN, who will see it the following
> week-end) was posted yesterday.
I almost fell down laughing when I read this!
I've never been a particular fan of any given television series ... well, not
since I was a lad watching "Batman" ... and had no idea so much research
existed to provide those in need with before hand peeks at their favorite
shows! Amazing, simply amazing!
Thank you, Susan.
FrasierFan
Another "on break here" note. You'd be amazed at the indepth "treatises" on
all aspects of Xena that are out there, Jim. Hey, I just started really seeing
recently what was going on when I kind of stumbled back into "fandom" after
dealing with "real" life for the last decade.
This kind of "near obsessive" behavior HAS always been there for EVERY subject,
you know (so, how many sports stats do YOU know that no one else cares about?).
:) We each have things that are important to US, that others don't consider
life or death. That's why we're seeing the "my God, Iolaus is dead!!!!!!"
reaction from some fans of this show, while others are doing a "that's as
important, I LOVED this season's stories" from others. Ultimately, I guess we
ALL have to decide for ourselves if this show (or any OTHER form of
entertainment) provides us with enough "relief from the pressures of the day"
to make it worth NOT doing "something else".
I, for one loved the OLD "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" quality of the show that
seems to have been less and less prevalent of late. The upshot, I'll probably
watch the next couple of weeks episodes, and that'll be IT. There's plenty of
"stark, riviting drama" done elsewhere (and, for me, executed better). Most of
my ramblings here (and elsewhere) have been "thoughts out loud" I made in
REACHING that decision.
I DO come away with a better appreciation for production companies who attempt
to "handle" potential "train wreck" situations like this in better ways, but
hey, this isn't the FIRST time someone let something "get out of hand". Those
of us in the U.S. are sitting through an impeachment situation because of
similar circumstances. Happens all the time.
Guess I HAVE learned from this experience, and I DID enjoy our "debate on the
technical merits of the season so far", Jim. It was fun. Just a shame so MANY
take the expression of anyone's OPINION as a personal affront. There USED to
be an ability to "agree to disagree", but that's kind of disappeared in recent
years on so MANY things. Shame really.
Well, it was nice getting to know those of you (at least a little) who I've
"debated" or "agreed" with. It's been a fun ride, and I WILL try to "keep
track of" how the future of this show goes (it WILL be interesting), but REAL
life is going to become hectic over the next few months, so my posts will
become few. Enjoy the show, for those of you who will, and I hope you can find
something else to become as devoted to, for those of you who can't.
Susan M. Sanders
> I've never been a particular fan of any given television series ... well, not
> since I was a lad watching "Batman" ... and had no idea so much research
> existed to provide those in need with before hand peeks at their favorite
> shows! Amazing, simply amazing!
Hey, this is nothing. Check out www.whoosh.org, the Journal of the
International Association of Xena Studies. It's hard to beat the Xenites
when it comes to obsessive.
Michael Martinez
I think the Tolkien fans still own the crown...but then, they get a lot of
help from moi....
Cheryl Young (Ceredwyn)
>
> In article <ssanders-020...@141.211.54.249>, ssan...@umich.edu (Susan M. Sanders) wrote:
> >In article <7976en$84f$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, sailo...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >> I've never been a particular fan of any given television series ... well, not
> >> since I was a lad watching "Batman" ... and had no idea so much research
> >> existed to provide those in need with before hand peeks at their favorite
> >> shows! Amazing, simply amazing!
> >
> >Hey, this is nothing. Check out www.whoosh.org, the Journal of the
> >International Association of Xena Studies. It's hard to beat the Xenites
> >when it comes to obsessive.
>
> I think the Tolkien fans still own the crown...but then, they get a lot of
> help from moi....
Hey, if it's worth liking, it's worth obsessing about. ;-)
Ceredwyn,
you know the rest
me...@execpc.com
Michael Martinez wrote:
> I think the Tolkien fans still own the crown...but then, they get a lot of
> help from moi....
Yes, but that's different. We know that Tolkien is a god. (And yes, I'm kidding.)
yodaa2
>
> in the alteranate universe with the jester, they explain that when 1
> dies in one universe so goes the double in the other.
>
> so how the hell pardon my portuguese, can they bring in the character.
SPOILER!
dont read any further!
(iolus/jester finds his way into a portal in which that doesn't happen,
because he isn't in any world, he's in a vortex with hercules's twin)
> on another note i guess , i will miss the old iolus.
ME TOO! I think iolus was the best character on all the shows...
> but if michael hurst could make the 1st one work, i have faith that he
> will make the second one work, and some of us will enjoy this new
> spin.
I like his new spin in another way, but I still like the old iolus, I
don't think they should have killed off iolus, I have a feeling though,
that the real iolus is somehow going to come back to life.
> then again i see this fandom splitting into factions. over which is
> the better character. whatever we will put the trekkies to shame.
...
merri
yodaa2 wrote:
> > but if michael hurst could make the 1st one work, i have faith that he
> > will make the second one work, and some of us will enjoy this new
> > spin.
>
> I like his new spin in another way, but I still like the old iolus,
>
I guess I've said this before. I have nothing against the new
Jester Iolaus -
especially they allow him to grow. They could have a unique opportunity to
show
the growth of a character (maybe a kind of cowardly lion thing) & I hope
they use
it instead of using him as a bit of comic relief. However, he cannot
replace the old
Iolaus, simply because Hercules and Iolaus II have no history together. The
loss of
the original Iolaus would not matter as much if they had established more
long-term,
meaningful relationships for Hercules. Iolaus I is one of the few people he
could meet
on a pretty much equal basis.
I don't think they should have killed off iolus, I have a feeling though,
that the real iolus is somehow going to come back to life.
Don't count on it. I don't think the writers could bring him back
at this point &
still maintain any artistic credibility. We'll just have to wait & see if
the loss of the
character is worth it....& how far they're willing to stretch the new
character. The next
episode looks promising....