Top Ten Reason Why Season 8 Sucked
Mike and Dorcie
9. The last five minutes of "Legal Tender Love and Care".
8. You mean Roz is still in this show? I barely noticed.
7. Mel and Donny were reduced to cardboard cutouts.
6. The reduction of scenes featuring the brothers' Crane.
5. 2 words: Docu.Drama
4. 2 more words: Daphne + Niles
3. The focus of the show, except for the last few episodes, seemed
unfocused.
2. Apparently, most of the writers forgot how to make Niles funny (or
they chose not to).
1. With a few exceptions, bad, *bad* writing.
Well, during the past few days of a forced vacation from the internet I
have been watching dozens of "Frasier" episodes, and I have come to the
conclusion that Season 8 stinks. Oh, there were some good and even
great moments, but when taken as a whole, the season was really bad.
Don't worry, though, I am nothing if not fair. I will attempt to come
up with some good things about the season. Later.
Dorcie
Donnie Falcone
Are you going into the Witness Protection Programme <g> ?
Donnie "I Would't SAY That Drunk" Falcone
>
Felix Tiaka
Hehe.
I was hoping you'd make a joke on the top 10 lists.
And the number 1 reason Season 8 sucked
- Badafucus, Badafucus, Badafucus!
drum roll... music.
Yeah, Niles and Daphne are really dull, in that 'I thought he was dead' type of
way. Mel and Donnie were out of the way all too easily. By the way, I saw Rush
Hour 2 the other day and did it suck, I think the saving point was my crush on
John Lone. *Sigh* John Lone.... *aaahhh*, yeah, well, I like Jacky Chan, even if
he is gay and is cheating on his fake wife, unfortunately there was like 10%
Jackie Chan, and 250% annoying Chris Tucker who pretty much insulted every race
possible. "You chinks all look alike to me!" and "Yeah, third world prostitution
is funny and should be exploited in every possible way.". I mean really, I was
trying to figure out if this was all a horribly sick joke, but it wasn't. Chris
even looked for the place again.
I was trying to sum Jackie Chan up again and all I was able to come up with was
Biao Yuen and how cool he was wearing those glasses. Drunken Master had some
good action stuff, but, well, I shouldn't put anyone down.
Ohh, right, Donnie, he was in Rush Hour 2, he was the guy handing out the chips.
Felix "It's because only a man knows how a woman is supposed to act" Tiaka
5 Cookies to whoever gets the quote.
Linda M. Bonnell
news:9kmhhv$56e7b$1...@ID-51106.news.dfncis.de...
> Felix "It's because only a man knows how a woman is supposed to act" Tiaka
> 5 Cookies to whoever gets the quote.
M. Butterfly.
Linda
Felix Tiaka
: > 5 Cookies to whoever gets the quote.
:
: M. Butterfly.
:
: Linda
Open wide.
Yes, Cronenberg has John Lone play opposite of Jeremy Irons. Hmm.. speaking of
which, wasn't John Lithgow in the play once? I remember a poster.
KACL Ann
back?
> : 9. The last five minutes of "Legal Tender Love and Care".
> : 8. You mean Roz is still in this show? I barely noticed.
> : 7. Mel and Donny were reduced to cardboard cutouts.
> : 6. The reduction of scenes featuring the brothers' Crane.
> : 5. 2 words: Docu.Drama
Yet the basis for which sets Frasier apart from other comedies
> : 4. 2 more words: Daphne + Niles
> : 3. The focus of the show, except for the last few episodes, seemed
> : unfocused.
> : 2. Apparently, most of the writers forgot how to make Niles funny (or
> : they chose not to).
> : 1. With a few exceptions, bad, *bad* writing.
> :
really dull, in that 'I thought he was dead' type of
> way. Mel and Donnie were out of the way all too easily. By the way, I saw
>Rush Hour 2 the other day and did it suck,
>I think the saving point was my crush on
> John Lone. *Sigh* John Lone.... *aaahhh*, yeah, well, I like Jacky Chan,
>even if he is gay and is cheating on his fake wife,
>unfortunately there was like 10% Jackie Chan, and 250% annoying Chris
>Tucker who pretty much insulted every race
Chris Tucker, I disagree, that he insulted EVERY race, insulting whites and
asian hardly qualifies and to term what he said as 'insulting' is a bit of a
stretch when taken in the context of the movie
> possible. "You chinks all look alike to me!"
people all look alike
>and "Yeah, third world prostitution is funny and should be exploited in
every >possible way.".
towards black men than Asian prostitutes. BTW, China is a far cry from
third world
>I mean really, I was
> trying to figure out if this was all a horribly sick joke, but it wasn't.
Chris
> even looked for the place again.
KACL Ann
C2001
> Dorcie wrote:
> >Well, during the past few days of a forced vacation from the internet I
> >have been watching dozens of "Frasier" episodes, and I have come to the
> >conclusion that Season 8 stinks. Oh, there were some good and even
> >great moments, but when taken as a whole, the season was really bad.
>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Charles
Kreisleriana
Lithgow originated the part and won a Tony.
Theresa
Bokman7757
Reasons:
10. Lana was brought back.
9. The last five minutes of "Daphne Returns".
8. When Roz is on, she gets some great material.
7. The Mel and Donny subplots were handled with maturity and depth.
6. Terrific byplay between the brothers Crane. (Reduction? What reduction?)
5. 2 words: Mature. Drama.
4. 2 more words: Daphne + Niles
3. The twin focuses of the N&D relationship and Frasier's mid-life crisis
provided plenty of material.
2. Niles got to be more than just funny.
1. Great, great, *great* writing.
Dorcie
If necessary I could plead insanity.
>
> Donnie "I Would't SAY That Drunk" Falcone
> >
hee hee
Dorcie
Calley215
>9. The last five minutes of "Legal Tender Love and Care".
>8. You mean Roz is still in this show? I barely noticed.
>7. Mel and Donny were reduced to cardboard cutouts.
>6. The reduction of scenes featuring the brothers' Crane.
>5. 2 words: Docu.Drama
>4. 2 more words: Daphne + Niles
>3. The focus of the show, except for the last few episodes, seemed
>unfocused.
>2. Apparently, most of the writers forgot how to make Niles funny (or
>they chose not to).
>1. With a few exceptions, bad, *bad* writing.
I do agree that this was a rough season. VERY rough. The entire beginning was
not that great and Daphne/Niles together was looking dismal. Daphne's character
has REALLY changed adn that is affecting Niles's. I think this season will be
better (dear God I hope so. I'd hate to be here if the show weren't nominated
for a best comedy series emmy.) There were good points (I enjoyed the premiere
ok and Hooping Cranes). I'm going to say what we've said all year: It was a
rough season, with the pregnancy, the new relationship, the new timeslot. I
hope the writers can get back on track because it has been choppy. I do think,
however, that the May episodes were great.
cafenervosa
more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
eunice
Yep.
eunice
Malcolm Hackett
Calley215 wrote in message <20010806181732...@ng-cj1.aol.com>...
>>4. 2 more words: Daphne + Niles
.
>>2. Apparently, most of the writers forgot how to make Niles funny (or
>>they chose not to).
>>1. With a few exceptions, bad, *bad* writing.
>
>I do agree that this was a rough season. VERY rough. The entire beginning
was
>not that great and Daphne/Niles together was looking dismal. Daphne's
character
>has REALLY changed adn that is affecting Niles's.
I've just got to chime in here. I know that maybe Season 8 hasn't had quite
the comic brilliance of earlier episodes, but it's unfair to expect that
Daphne and Niles' characters wouldn't change. It'd be pretty unrealistic,
if once they got together, Niles would continue to be just as snobby - you'd
start to think 'Why is Daphne interested in him?' I think it was a natural
progression. Everyone develops and/or changes a bit after 8 years,
especially if they are in a new relationship. People affect each other and
bring out different things in each other. I think the writers are just
trying to keep things realistic.
>rough season, with the pregnancy, the new relationship, the new timeslot. I
>hope the writers can get back on track because it has been choppy. I do
think,
>however, that the May episodes were great.
I think that the show just needs time to find a new groove, having brought
one of the main storylines to a head. I have faith that the writers can do
that - we just need a little patience!
Debs
x
eunice
> 7. Mel and Donny were reduced to cardboard cutouts.
>
> Dorcie
I disagreed with most of your list, except one... the disposal of Mel
and Donny. I thought that the writers should have done follow-ups and
not get rid of them in a one-two punch in 2 consecutive weeks. It was
swept under the rug too quickly and easily. I mean, N/D don't even
run into Mel at all in any of their outings to restaurants, theater,
etc.? I HOPE that they bring them back for some follow up episodes in
the following season. One thing I would add is what happened to
Maris? After her weight gain, nothing was mentioned. If she was
willing to ruin Mel's practice to try and get Niles back, why isn't
she doing anything now? I realize Daphne has no social standing, but
still... isn't there anything she will try to do? I don't want people
constantly standing in the way of N/D's relationship, but to go from
so much barriers to none at all seems too drastic.
eunice
Tovah Anne
>more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
>that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
Oh, I love you! I can't stand Dr. Mary either! I loved both episodes she was
in, well, that is minus her parts, everything else was superb. Nice to know I'm
not alone.
As for the rest, maybe I'll reply when two of my fingers aren't burning from
having to help my dad pull the a/c out of the wall. The bad news, my fingers
got squashed, but I was able to help him move it just enough so that he could
get it down. yippe.
~Laura
Tovah Anne
I think Donnie was handled quite nicely, with an end but still room for more.
Mel needed more. I wanted to see the divorce become final and not just have to
assume. I also think that Niles, Daphne, and Mel should bump into each other
somewhere, it would be interesting. And Maris, well, is she fat or is she thin?
I keep getting the image of her cramming a donut down her throat until she
finds out that Niles left Mel for Daphne, I think that'll send her back to
toothpick land!
~Laura
Mike and Dorcie
LOL!!!
I think you took felix way too seriously.
Dorcie
Mike and Dorcie
> Calley215 wrote in message <20010806181732...@ng-cj1.aol.com>...
>
> >>4. 2 more words: Daphne + Niles
> .
> >>2. Apparently, most of the writers forgot how to make Niles funny (or
> >>they chose not to).
> >>1. With a few exceptions, bad, *bad* writing.
> >
> >I do agree that this was a rough season. VERY rough. The entire beginning
> was
> >not that great and Daphne/Niles together was looking dismal. Daphne's
> character
> >has REALLY changed adn that is affecting Niles's.
>
> I've just got to chime in here. I know that maybe Season 8 hasn't had quite
> the comic brilliance of earlier episodes, but it's unfair to expect that
> Daphne and Niles' characters wouldn't change. It'd be pretty unrealistic,
> if once they got together, Niles would continue to be just as snobby - you'd
> start to think 'Why is Daphne interested in him?'
But Daphne was interested in him.
> I think it was a natural
> progression. Everyone develops and/or changes a bit after 8 years,
> especially if they are in a new relationship. People affect each other and
> bring out different things in each other. I think the writers are just
> trying to keep things realistic.
>
Niles changed a great deal between Season 1 and Season 7, and he was hilarious
in every single season. This last season, he was almost boring. All of the
episodes that I like and are well written focus almost solely on Frasier, and
that's the first time this has ever happened. Of course Niles had to change, as
did Daphne, but my God the course it has run so far has been boring and almost
irritating in its lack of humor. I can only count on one hand the truly funny
moments Niles had in Season 8. Pit that against any season before (except,
perhaps, the first season) and see what the difference is. The only difference
that I noticed in Season 8 that I was thankful for was the increase of
one-liners given to Martin. He was really the highlight of the season for me as
far as the humor is concerned.
Still, everything I wrote above applies only to all episodes up to "Daphne
Returns". I really think the show took a giant leap up in quality and humor
after that episode and I am thankful for it. I have watched the last four
episodes more than the other of last season's episodes. They are well written,
funny and everything about them seems much more relaxed than the rest.
>
> >rough season, with the pregnancy, the new relationship, the new timeslot. I
> >hope the writers can get back on track because it has been choppy. I do
> think,
> >however, that the May episodes were great.
>
> I think that the show just needs time to find a new groove, having brought
> one of the main storylines to a head. I have faith that the writers can do
> that - we just need a little patience!
A little patience? Isn't this the mantra most of us were repeating all of last
season. I think an entire season is long enough for anyone to wait.
Dorcie
Mike and Dorcie
> I think Season 8 was an improvement over last year, and a superb season.
Wow. In my mind, there is no comparison. Season 7, as a whole, was better
written, more stable and much more funny.
Dorcie
Calley215
>written, more stable and much more funny.
Yeah- season eight was...well, season 8. I'm still with my suggestion that all
the writers go on a little retreat adn watch reruns. They need to remember the
fundamentals on which the show was based: a snobbish psychiatrist moves back to
his roots with his gruff father (who has changed. Have you compared Martin's
voice in season 8 to an earlier? It's almost bazaar!), his highbrow brother (I
KNOW I'm ot the only one who realisers a drastic change there) and the quirky
physical therapist (It has been a while since they've done therapy). Roz and
Frasier are virtually the only characters who are semi-the-same. Well, that's
what I think
eunice
>> I think that the show just needs time to find a new groove, having brought
>> one of the main storylines to a head. I have faith that the writers can do
>> that - we just need a little patience!
>
> A little patience? Isn't this the mantra most of us were repeating all of
> last season. I think an entire season is long enough for anyone to wait.
>
>
> Dorcie
I don't think it calls for patience. If you enjoy it, watch it. If you
don't, don't watch it. It's only a TV show, albeit a great one. Nothing to
lose any sleep over.
eunice
eunice
I would suggest that you compare your present self to who you were 8 years
ago. I'd guess that there were some personal growth there. Of course,
these are fictional characters, but one of the reasons that some of us are
such great fans of "Frasier" is the fact that they almost feel like real
people... people you care about and have seen grow and mature over the past
8 years. If they were the same people they were 8 years ago, then IMO that
would be the sad part.
eunice
Bokman7757
> It'd be pretty unrealistic,
>> if once they got together, Niles would continue to be just as snobby -
>you'd
>> start to think 'Why is Daphne interested in him?'
>
>But Daphne was interested in him.
True, but that wouldn't ensure its believability. Look at FRIENDS this past
season- sure, Chandler is clearly in love with Monica, but the question of
"Why" kept leaping to my mind because the writers continued to portray her as
this psychotic, ultra-competitive control freak. I think mellowing Niles'
character kept the relationship believable.
Bokman7757
>Bokman7757 wrote:
7 was good, but didn't have the same number of out-and-out *classics* that
season 8's added to the show. "Taking Liberties", "Frasier's Edge", "Motor
Skills", "Daphne Returns", "Semi-Decent Proposal"- even to some extent "And the
Dish Ran Away With The Spoon". "Mary Christmas" was the only episode that
really struck me as weak- all the others had something to distinguish them.
Les Faby
eun...@gtemail.net says...
His first big movie role was in THE WORLD ACCORDING TO GARTH playing the
lovely Roberta Muldoon.
Regards .... Les
eunice
He was nominated, but I don't think he won.
eunice
eunice
Yep. He made one UGLY woman :)
eunice
Mike and Dorcie
> >From: Mike and Dorcie miken...@mindspring.com
>
> > It'd be pretty unrealistic,
> >> if once they got together, Niles would continue to be just as snobby -
> >you'd
> >> start to think 'Why is Daphne interested in him?'
> >
> >But Daphne was interested in him.
>
> True, but that wouldn't ensure its believability. Look at FRIENDS this past
> season- sure, Chandler is clearly in love with Monica, but the question of
> "Why" kept leaping to my mind because the writers continued to portray her as
> this psychotic, ultra-competitive control freak.
Um, what's wrong with "psychotic, ultra-competitive control freak(s)"? My
husband has been married to one for a couple of years and he doesn't seem to mind
much.
> I think mellowing Niles'
> character kept the relationship believable.
I do, too, but only because as in most relationships, the significant other
always tries to change you.
Dorcie
Mike and Dorcie
I agree with you, eunice. The great thing about this show (until this last season,
imo) is that growth is always apparent and very believable.
Dorcie
Andrea
>up with some good things about the season. Later.
>
>
Bored, huh?
Mike and Dorcie
> >From: Mike and Dorcie miken...@mindspring.com
>
> >Bokman7757 wrote:
> >
> >> I think Season 8 was an improvement over last year, and a superb season.
> >
> >Wow. In my mind, there is no comparison. Season 7, as a whole, was better
> >written, more stable and much more funny.
>
> 7 was good, but didn't have the same number of out-and-out *classics* that
> season 8's added to the show. "Taking Liberties"
I think this episode is unbalanced and doesn't hold up well to watching over and
over again as the months go by like many of my favorites. I do love every scene
that Victor Garber is in, though.
> , "Frasier's Edge"
Agree with you on this one. I thought this was the most well crafted episode of
the entire season.
> , "Motor
> Skills"
This one always seemed unbalanced to me, as well. The end clearly outshines the
rest of the episode. Plus, the Martin and Roz subplot is just weird.
> , "Daphne Returns", "Semi-Decent Proposal"- even to some extent "And the
> Dish Ran Away With The Spoon".
I agree with you on all of these as well, but I don't think that any of these
episodes is better or funnier than "Out With Dad", "Big Crane On Campus", "Father
of the Bride", "The Apparent Trap", "To Thine Own Self Be True", or "Back Talk" (I
won't bring up "SBSB" because that really was a special episode). Every single one
of those episodes I listed, with maybe the exception of "Out With Dad", is good all
the way through. The one thing that I have noticed with the Season 8 episodes is
that I find myself saying, "Well, I really loved a lot of the episodes, but there
were some parts in it that I thought were weak, poorly written, etc." I think all
of the classics of Season 7 are good from start to finish, which is something that
I can not say about too many episodes from this last season. Even "Frasier's
Edge", which I have been doting on ever since it aired, has some weak points in it
that I always fast forward through when I watch it now. I can't even imagine fast
forwarding through any of those episodes I listed above. Also, I am not even
trying to watch the reruns from this last season, whereas with Season 7 I was
watching nearly every rerun that NBC aired, no matter how many times I had seen the
episode (even that dreadful "Morning Becomes Entertainment").
> "Mary Christmas" was the only episode that
> really struck me as weak- all the others had something to distinguish them.
I do love the bit in it when what'sherface comes over to talk to Frasier, and they
"banter". I thought that was a great scene and I sometimes fast forward the
episode just to watch that part.
Dorcie
Mike and Dorcie
How'd ya guess?<g>
Dorcie
eunice
You wouldn't be bored if you had cable!!! <vbg>
eunice
Mike and Dorcie
LOL!!!
I wouldn't have a life if I had cable. I clearly remember the couch
zombie that I used to be, and I am a little scared to go back to having
the capability of watching so much TV.
Dorcie
Bokman7757
>> True, but that wouldn't ensure its believability. Look at FRIENDS this
>past
>> season- sure, Chandler is clearly in love with Monica, but the question
>of
>> "Why" kept leaping to my mind because the writers continued to portray
>her as
>> this psychotic, ultra-competitive control freak.
>
>Um, what's wrong with "psychotic, ultra-competitive control freak(s)"?
>My
>husband has been married to one for a couple of years and he doesn't seem
>to mind
>much.
I would HOPE you're not as bad as Monica, though. She was practically Maris-ian
in the level of control she had over Chandler. It stopped being funny after a
while and started getting sad.
Bokman7757
>I agree with you on all of these as well, but I don't think that any of
>these
>episodes is better or funnier than "Out With Dad", "Big Crane On Campus",
>"Father
>of the Bride", "The Apparent Trap", "To Thine Own Self Be True", or "Back
>Talk"
Those where all pretty good, I agree, but somehow this season engrossed me
more. Part of it was that I loved watching the Niles/Daphne relationship
develop- from letting us revel in the sentimentality to playing it for laughs,
to the big conflagration and finally seeing them settle into this lovely
chemistry. The way it was handled was superb, and that's what kept my attention
even on some of the lesser installments.
Mike and Dorcie
I haven't watched "Friends" in almost two seasons. The only bit I watched this
last season was the final 10 minutes of the finale. Unlike "Frasier", "Friends"
really does suck.
Dorcie
Alastair Mowbray
long-lived sitcoms.
I admit, I love the middle seasons of Friends -- the writing was undeniably
sharp and the actors (even David Schwimmer) found some depth to their
characters. But the show never bothered to age the characters -- recall the
episode earlier this (well, last) season where Joey finally had to come to grips
with not being a teenager. Essentially, Friends is about adolescents who joke
about bodily functions and experience "real life" rarely and then only as
transient moments of overwrought angst. This is fine, but with the actors all
obviously thirtysomething (or worse -- she's incredibly hot, but how old is
Courteney Cox?), it's pretty pathetic to watch them act out story lines that
wouldn't have been out of place on Saved by the Bell.
Alastair
Mike and Dorcie
I can't really add anything except to give you a great big Martin "thank you".
Dorcie
eunice
This is the problem I find in a lot of shows. They don't have the
characters grow up. Even "Cheers," near the final seasons, I completely
lost all interest in Sam. He was still the same oversexed man that he was
at the beginning except now he didn't have a relationship that humanized him
as he had in the early seasons AND he was no longer young. He became more
pathetic than anything else. Thank god they had other more interesting
characters on that show.
> This is fine, but with the actors all
> obviously thirtysomething (or worse -- she's incredibly hot, but how old is
> Courteney Cox?),
I think she is 36 or 37.
> it's pretty pathetic to watch them act out story lines that
> wouldn't have been out of place on Saved by the Bell.
>
> Alastair
It's almost like watching your high school friends who haven't grown up and
still live the same kind of life they did back then.
eunice
traxland
Mike and Dorcie wrote:
I think in the May episodes they started to find the groove. I agree we need
patience, the whole season was bumpy because of the pregnancy, time slot and
writers. I thought under the circumstances, the Niles and Daphne relationship was
handled very well. People waited for seven years for them to get together and when
you get your wish, it doesn't work exactly to plan. I for one am very excited for
season 9 because we know the time slot, the writers have motivation from the slack
season 8 and no one's pregnant, even though with DHP in the play and no rest, I
think he may look very old and tired.
Megan (Reason 11 this season sucked: David never took off his shirt )
Alastair Mowbray
>
><snipped>
>
>Still, everything I wrote above applies only to all episodes up to "Daphne
>Returns". I really think the show took a giant leap up in quality and humor
>after that episode and I am thankful for it. I have watched the last four
>episodes more than the other of last season's episodes. They are well written,
>funny and everything about them seems much more relaxed than the rest.
>
>>
>> >rough season, with the pregnancy, the new relationship, the new timeslot. I
>> >hope the writers can get back on track because it has been choppy. I do
>> think,
>> >however, that the May episodes were great.
>>
>> I think that the show just needs time to find a new groove, having brought
>> one of the main storylines to a head. I have faith that the writers can do
>> that - we just need a little patience!
>
>A little patience? Isn't this the mantra most of us were repeating all of last
>season. I think an entire season is long enough for anyone to wait.
>
>
>Dorcie
>
But, as you point out above, it wasn't an "entire" season. I really agree with
you that "Daphne Returns" marked a return to form that continued through May. I
see these last episodes as fulfilling the promise of "SBSB". As for the
interceding months...
While we shouldn't simply overlook the pre-"DR" period, I think it can be set
aside in terms of predicting the show's future quality. I hate to find a down
side to the birth of a new child, but for our selfish purposes JL's pregnancy
did make the show less recognizable: fat jokes as a part of the comedic
repertoire, almost no sexual tension between Niles and Daphne (not, obviously, a
necessary result of pregnancy -- or the fictional weight gain explanation -- but
it did seem like the actors had a hard time adjusting), and worst of all, it
kept JL out of four episodes.
I don't think it's an accident that two of the four episodes missing Daphne
easily make my worst of all time list: "It Takes Two To Tangle" and "Forgotten
But Not Gone". And the other two, "Hooping Cranes" and "Docu.Drama," were wildly
inconsistent. I'm not sure that Daphne's presence would have affected the latter
very much, but just think what the writers could have done with Daphne and an
"athletic" Niles ("You always smell so masculine after you've finished
exercising").
I also know that, speaking for myself, "SBSB" and the ensuing four months of
waiting inflated my expectations to a ridiculous extent -- and in the wrong
direction. While I knew that "Frasier" would still center on the title
character, I couldn't help but be a little disappointed every time an episode
didn't revolve around Niles and Daphne. I think that this year's more subtle
cliffhanger, plus the stabilization of the N/D question, has actually left me
better prepared to enjoy season 9 on its merits.
Alastair
Mike and Dorcie
I had no real problem with the fat jokes, other than that they got rather old after
a while. Still, I am willing to overlook the staleness since "Hungry Heart" was so
damn funny.
> almost no sexual tension between Niles and Daphne (not, obviously, a
> necessary result of pregnancy -- or the fictional weight gain explanation -- but
> it did seem like the actors had a hard time adjusting), and worst of all, it
> kept JL out of four episodes.
>
> I don't think it's an accident that two of the four episodes missing Daphne
> easily make my worst of all time list: "It Takes Two To Tangle" and "Forgotten
> But Not Gone".
Aw Jeez. I love "It Takes Two to Tangle".
> And the other two, "Hooping Cranes" and "Docu.Drama," were wildly
> inconsistent. I'm not sure that Daphne's presence would have affected the latter
> very much, but just think what the writers could have done with Daphne and an
> "athletic" Niles ("You always smell so masculine after you've finished
> exercising").
>
I remember thinking as I first watched "Hooping Cranes" that I *really* missed
Daphne.
>
> I also know that, speaking for myself, "SBSB" and the ensuing four months of
> waiting inflated my expectations to a ridiculous extent -- and in the wrong
> direction. While I knew that "Frasier" would still center on the title
> character, I couldn't help but be a little disappointed every time an episode
> didn't revolve around Niles and Daphne. I think that this year's more subtle
> cliffhanger, plus the stabilization of the N/D question, has actually left me
> better prepared to enjoy season 9 on its merits.
>
See, that's the thing. I was just the opposite. I was looking forward to seeing
less of N/D and more Frasier. The one thing that I didn't plan on was being
irritated almost every time I saw Niles and Daphne together. It got to the point
very early on that I didn't want to see them together anymore until after the whole
ordeal with her gaining weight was over. They became so stagnant it was almost
embarrassing to watch them.
Dorcie
Alastair Mowbray
>
>Alastair Mowbray wrote:
>
><snipped further>
>
>> But, as you point out above, it wasn't an "entire" season. I really agree with
>> you that "Daphne Returns" marked a return to form that continued through May. I
>> see these last episodes as fulfilling the promise of "SBSB". As for the
>> interceding months...
>>
>> While we shouldn't simply overlook the pre-"DR" period, I think it can be set
>> aside in terms of predicting the show's future quality. I hate to find a down
>> side to the birth of a new child, but for our selfish purposes JL's pregnancy
>> did make the show less recognizable: fat jokes as a part of the comedic
>> repertoire,
>
>I had no real problem with the fat jokes, other than that they got rather old after
>a while. Still, I am willing to overlook the staleness since "Hungry Heart" was so
>damn funny.
True. And I give the writers credit for trying a novel solution to the pregnant
actress problem. And it did set up the psychological crisis at the center of
"Daphne Returns."
But the jokes were so lame. Except for Martin's "chickens holding a prayer
vigil" line and Niles' sly nod to JL's delivery ("She's lost nine pounds, twelve
ounces"), they weren't worthy of the show.
>
>> almost no sexual tension between Niles and Daphne (not, obviously, a
>> necessary result of pregnancy -- or the fictional weight gain explanation -- but
>> it did seem like the actors had a hard time adjusting), and worst of all, it
>> kept JL out of four episodes.
>>
>> I don't think it's an accident that two of the four episodes missing Daphne
>> easily make my worst of all time list: "It Takes Two To Tangle" and "Forgotten
>> But Not Gone".
>
>Aw Jeez. I love "It Takes Two to Tangle".
Noooooooo! <g>
Shucks. Our first disagreement? Honestly, I just can't remember a single line
from that episode, and I recall thinking that both guest stars were wasted
(especially the guy who played Letterman in "The Late Shift").
I will say that it wasn't as bad as the "Mary Christmas" episode, which was even
more disappointing because I thought the first Mary episode was both hilarious
and topical ("She's not going to say 'massa'").
>
>> And the other two, "Hooping Cranes" and "Docu.Drama," were wildly
>> inconsistent. I'm not sure that Daphne's presence would have affected the latter
>> very much, but just think what the writers could have done with Daphne and an
>> "athletic" Niles ("You always smell so masculine after you've finished
>> exercising").
>>
>
>I remember thinking as I first watched "Hooping Cranes" that I *really* missed
>Daphne.
>
>>
>> I also know that, speaking for myself, "SBSB" and the ensuing four months of
>> waiting inflated my expectations to a ridiculous extent -- and in the wrong
>> direction. While I knew that "Frasier" would still center on the title
>> character, I couldn't help but be a little disappointed every time an episode
>> didn't revolve around Niles and Daphne. I think that this year's more subtle
>> cliffhanger, plus the stabilization of the N/D question, has actually left me
>> better prepared to enjoy season 9 on its merits.
>>
>
>See, that's the thing. I was just the opposite. I was looking forward to seeing
>less of N/D and more Frasier. The one thing that I didn't plan on was being
>irritated almost every time I saw Niles and Daphne together. It got to the point
>very early on that I didn't want to see them together anymore until after the whole
>ordeal with her gaining weight was over. They became so stagnant it was almost
>embarrassing to watch them.
>
>
>Dorcie
>
Well, different strokes.
Still, I don't think that I'm alone here. eunice could probably confirm or deny
this, but I'm guessing that -- aside from "A Day in May/Cranes Go Caribbean,"
which was the season (double) finale and ran after most other shows had already
finished their first runs for the season -- the top three most-watched episodes
of the year featured Niles and Daphne: "ATDRAWTS", "Taking Liberties", and
"Daphne Returns".
Mike and Dorcie
> In article <3B6F90AC...@mindspring.com>, Mike and Dorcie says...
> >
> >Alastair Mowbray wrote:
> >
> ><snipped further>
> >
> >> But, as you point out above, it wasn't an "entire" season. I really agree with
> >> you that "Daphne Returns" marked a return to form that continued through May. I
> >> see these last episodes as fulfilling the promise of "SBSB". As for the
> >> interceding months...
> >>
> >> While we shouldn't simply overlook the pre-"DR" period, I think it can be set
> >> aside in terms of predicting the show's future quality. I hate to find a down
> >> side to the birth of a new child, but for our selfish purposes JL's pregnancy
> >> did make the show less recognizable: fat jokes as a part of the comedic
> >> repertoire,
> >
> >I had no real problem with the fat jokes, other than that they got rather old after
> >a while. Still, I am willing to overlook the staleness since "Hungry Heart" was so
> >damn funny.
>
> True. And I give the writers credit for trying a novel solution to the pregnant
> actress problem. And it did set up the psychological crisis at the center of
> "Daphne Returns."
>
> But the jokes were so lame. Except for Martin's "chickens holding a prayer
> vigil" line and Niles' sly nod to JL's delivery ("She's lost nine pounds, twelve
> ounces"), they weren't worthy of the show.
>
Don't forget the "It took three Cranes to lift you" joke as well as the sly "They're
jumbos" one.
>
> >
> >> almost no sexual tension between Niles and Daphne (not, obviously, a
> >> necessary result of pregnancy -- or the fictional weight gain explanation -- but
> >> it did seem like the actors had a hard time adjusting), and worst of all, it
> >> kept JL out of four episodes.
> >>
> >> I don't think it's an accident that two of the four episodes missing Daphne
> >> easily make my worst of all time list: "It Takes Two To Tangle" and "Forgotten
> >> But Not Gone".
> >
> >Aw Jeez. I love "It Takes Two to Tangle".
>
> Noooooooo! <g>
>
> Shucks. Our first disagreement? Honestly, I just can't remember a single line
> from that episode, and I recall thinking that both guest stars were wasted
> (especially the guy who played Letterman in "The Late Shift").
>
I will always love how Niles pretends to faint and then, while still sort of pretending
to be unconscious, gives the woman his pen. Then there's the whole cell phone jingle
bit.
As for quotes, are you kidding? Martin was throwing out zingers left and right:
Off of Frasier's worries that he one of his girlfriends might find out he is juggling:
"Oh, don't worry. I've watched you juggle. I got a pretty
good handle on what not to do.
Martin: this juggling thing isn't as easy as I make it look. But don't you worry:
they're both gettin' first class passage on the "S.S. Martin".
Niles (to Frasier): Oh, *that's* where you get that from.
"She's got it bad, and that ain't good."
"What can I tell ya? Daddy's got a big appetite."
And don't forget Niles talking about having him neutered. Also, that joke about Daphne
losing "nine pounds twelve ounces" was in this episode. In fact, this was at the very
beginning when Niles and Roz are talking, which is one of my favorites scenes of the
entire season. I love what happens when a waiter brings Roz a plate full of brownies:
Roz: Oh, thanks.
Niles: Um, I'm going back to the spa this coming weekend, if you need
a ride...
Roz: Oh, these aren't for me. Alice's school is having a picnic and
I'm bringing the goodies.
Niles: [looking at her cleavage] Yes, I see. Just don't get them
sunburned. [off her look] I'm sorry, it's just...aren't you
a little overdressed for a picnic?
Then there's this scene later on that had me laughing so hard I nearly fell off my bed:
Niles: We've go to get out there right now!
Frasier: Just give me the chance to get the words right. "Money can
not so enrich a man..."
Niles: She's talking to Dad!
Frasier: Let's get the hell out there!
I really think people overlook this episode because Daphne isn't in it and also because
at the time it aired most people were anxious to see what would happen between Niles and
Daphne when she did get back. Plus, it was rather weird to see Martin juggling women
and talking like Frasier.
>
> I will say that it wasn't as bad as the "Mary Christmas" episode, which was even
> more disappointing because I thought the first Mary episode was both hilarious
> and topical ("She's not going to say 'massa'").
>
My thoughts exactly.
They were also the three most hyped episodes by NBC. We saw that stupid "No Hints"
thing all summer, DHP and Jane Leeves went on "The View" to promote "Taking Liberties"
and I am still laughing at Enya's song (I do like it, though).
Dorcie
Bridget A Goodman
>>yeah, i agree- the build up to niles and daphne getting together was a lot
>>more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
>>that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
>
>Oh, I love you! I can't stand Dr. Mary either! I loved both episodes she was
>in, well, that is minus her parts, everything else was superb. Nice to know I'm
>not alone.
Am I the only one here who 1) likes Dr. Mary in general and 2) liked the
Mary Christmas ep?
Bridget
NB: I've watched and enjoyed Kim Coles in Living Color and Living
Single,a nd remember the white-haired guy at the end when he was playing
"Lloyd" on "Search for Tomorrow".
MissMCMod
>On 07 Aug 2001 00:00:50 GMT, Tovah Anne <tova...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>yeah, i agree- the build up to niles and daphne getting together was a lot
>>>more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
>>>that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
>>
>>Oh, I love you! I can't stand Dr. Mary either! I loved both episodes she was
>>in, well, that is minus her parts, everything else was superb. Nice to know
>I'm
>>not alone.
>
>Am I the only one here who 1) likes Dr. Mary in general and 2) liked the
>Mary Christmas ep?
>
episode she was in in season 8, so that's probably why I didn't like her as
much the second time around.
Lani (I was beginning to think I was alone!)
--------
Daphne: They went to a tractor pull.
Niles: Oh!
Daphne: As I understand it, they attach a large weight to a tractor, and see
how far they can pull it through the mud.
Niles: Oh!
Daphne: The answer to your next question is, "Beats the hell out of me."
Mike and Dorcie
> On 07 Aug 2001 00:00:50 GMT, Tovah Anne <tova...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>yeah, i agree- the build up to niles and daphne getting together was a lot
> >>more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
> >>that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
> >
> >Oh, I love you! I can't stand Dr. Mary either! I loved both episodes she was
> >in, well, that is minus her parts, everything else was superb. Nice to know I'm
> >not alone.
>
> Am I the only one here who 1) likes Dr. Mary in general and 2) liked the
> Mary Christmas ep?
>
Yes and yes.
Seriously, I like Dr. Mary, but I have always been a fan of the "less is more"
philosophy. She was perfect in "There's Something About Dr. Mary", and bringing her
back in an episode that wasn't as good did two things: It made me like "Mary
Christmas" less than I probably would have due to the comparisons to the older and
better episode, and it made me care for the character less because she was reduced
to something that wasn't as special or interesting. Really, anyone could have
played the part that Mary played in the latter episode. It wasn't that important
and I didn't really care.
Dorcie
Mike and Dorcie
> >
> >On 07 Aug 2001 00:00:50 GMT, Tovah Anne <tova...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>>yeah, i agree- the build up to niles and daphne getting together was a lot
> >>>more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
> >>>that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
> >>
> >>Oh, I love you! I can't stand Dr. Mary either! I loved both episodes she was
> >>in, well, that is minus her parts, everything else was superb. Nice to know
> >I'm
> >>not alone.
> >
> >Am I the only one here who 1) likes Dr. Mary in general and 2) liked the
> >Mary Christmas ep?
> >
> I liked Dr. Mary in season 7 (okay?! OKAY!) but I didn't really like the
> episode she was in in season 8, so that's probably why I didn't like her as
> much the second time around.
>
> Lani (I was beginning to think I was alone!)
Nope
>
> --------
> Daphne: They went to a tractor pull.
> Niles: Oh!
> Daphne: As I understand it, they attach a large weight to a tractor, and see
> how far they can pull it through the mud.
> Niles: Oh!
> Daphne: The answer to your next question is, "Beats the hell out of me."
The funny thing about this quote is that Niles said in Season 4 or 5 that he had
gone with is father to a tractor pull, so he should have known what it was.
Dorcie
MissMCMod
>
>> >
>> >On 07 Aug 2001 00:00:50 GMT, Tovah Anne <tova...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>>yeah, i agree- the build up to niles and daphne getting together was a
>lot
>> >>>more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
>> >>>that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
>> >>
>> >>Oh, I love you! I can't stand Dr. Mary either! I loved both episodes she
>was
>> >>in, well, that is minus her parts, everything else was superb. Nice to
>know
>> >I'm
>> >>not alone.
>> >
>> >Am I the only one here who 1) likes Dr. Mary in general and 2) liked the
>> >Mary Christmas ep?
>> >
>> I liked Dr. Mary in season 7 (okay?! OKAY!) but I didn't really like the
>> episode she was in in season 8, so that's probably why I didn't like her as
>> much the second time around.
>>
>> Lani (I was beginning to think I was alone!)
>
>Nope
>
>> --------
>> Daphne: They went to a tractor pull.
>> Niles: Oh!
>> Daphne: As I understand it, they attach a large weight to a tractor, and
>see
>> how far they can pull it through the mud.
>> Niles: Oh!
>> Daphne: The answer to your next question is, "Beats the hell out of me."
>
>The funny thing about this quote is that Niles said in Season 4 or 5 that he
>had
>gone with is father to a tractor pull, so he should have known what it was.
>
>
>Dorcie
>
Lani (we should hire ourselves out)
---------
"What month is this? Yesterday I saw these people dressed up, and I thought it
was Halloween. I got so excited."
Mike and Dorcie
Oh I think they would be thrilled to have me work for them.
Dorcie
MissMCMod
totally picture how you're saying this.
Lani (hey President Bartlett hired Ainsley Hayes, didn't he?)
Mike and Dorcie
> >MissMCMod wrote:
> >
> >> >MissMCMod wrote:
> >> >
>
> >> >>
> >> >> Lani (I was beginning to think I was alone!)
> >> >
> >> >Nope
> >> >
> >> Good ;) The headaches are subsiding!
> >> >> --------
> >> >> Daphne: They went to a tractor pull.
> >> >> Niles: Oh!
> >> >> Daphne: As I understand it, they attach a large weight to a tractor, and
> >> >see
> >> >> how far they can pull it through the mud.
> >> >> Niles: Oh!
> >> >> Daphne: The answer to your next question is, "Beats the hell out of me."
> >> >
> >> >The funny thing about this quote is that Niles said in Season 4 or 5 that
> >he
> >> >had
> >> >gone with is father to a tractor pull, so he should have known what it
> >was.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Dorcie
> >> >
> >> Yeah, gotta love continuity! <g>
> >>
> >> Lani (we should hire ourselves out)
> >
> >Oh I think they would be thrilled to have me work for them.
> >
> >
> >Dorcie
> >
> lmao. I love how I don't even know what you look or sound like, but I can
> totally picture how you're saying this.
>
<g>
>
> Lani (hey President Bartlett hired Ainsley Hayes, didn't he?)
Yes, and then CJ proceeded to break the door in the White House.
Dorcie
MissMCMod
and you'll be fine.
Lani ("CJ thinks you kill your pets")
------
Martin: Your mother always knew just what to say to cheer me up. "So what if
the trophy says Baking instead of Baseball, Marty? Catcher's mitts or oven
mitts, they're our little champions."
Mike and Dorcie
I think I'll be running from anyone who is as tall as CJ.
>
> Lani ("CJ thinks you kill your pets")
LOL
I love that line.
>
> ------
> Martin: Your mother always knew just what to say to cheer me up. "So what if
> the trophy says Baking instead of Baseball, Marty? Catcher's mitts or oven
> mitts, they're our little champions."
Ha! I just watched this episode yesterday.
Dorcie
Niles: Apparently mom was being tactful.
MissMCMod
>>
>> Lani ("CJ thinks you kill your pets")
>
>LOL
>
>I love that line.
>
that scene with Ainsley and Leo loud enough so my mother could hear it in the
next room. She thought it was funny, too. ;)
>> ------
>> Martin: Your mother always knew just what to say to cheer me up. "So what
>if
>> the trophy says Baking instead of Baseball, Marty? Catcher's mitts or oven
>> mitts, they're our little champions."
>
>Ha! I just watched this episode yesterday.
>
>Dorcie
>Niles: Apparently mom was being tactful.
>
IQ is one of my favorite episodes. I can't get enough of those two in the
resturant waiting for the geniuses...Niles popping the pills, sneezing and
spitting them into his hand, looking at them for a moment, and popping them
right back in again! And when he goes "naptkin naptkin naptkin
naptkin...wheeee!" and starts blowing his lips out like a little kid, I can't
stop laughing!
Lani (all smiley now!)
--------
Mike and Dorcie
>
> >> >> >> Lani (we should hire ourselves out)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Oh I think they would be thrilled to have me work for them.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Dorcie
> >> >> >
> >> >> lmao. I love how I don't even know what you look or sound like, but I
> >can
> >> >> totally picture how you're saying this.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> ><g>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Lani (hey President Bartlett hired Ainsley Hayes, didn't he?)
> >> >
> >> >Yes, and then CJ proceeded to break the door in the White House.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> lol, so who do you think will be CJ? Just run for cover from whoever that
> >is
> >> and you'll be fine.
> >>
> >
> >I think I'll be running from anyone who is as tall as CJ.
> >
> It's not her height that frightens *me*!! <g>
LOL!!
Many things about CJ frighten me.
>
> >>
> >> Lani ("CJ thinks you kill your pets")
> >
> >LOL
> >
> >I love that line.
> >
> I love that whole exchange. I rewatched that episode the other day and played
> that scene with Ainsley and Leo loud enough so my mother could hear it in the
> next room. She thought it was funny, too. ;)
I loved the part with John Laroquette.
>
> >> ------
> >> Martin: Your mother always knew just what to say to cheer me up. "So what
> >if
> >> the trophy says Baking instead of Baseball, Marty? Catcher's mitts or oven
> >> mitts, they're our little champions."
> >
> >Ha! I just watched this episode yesterday.
> >
> >Dorcie
> >Niles: Apparently mom was being tactful.
> >
> I love Niles' expression when he says that!
> IQ is one of my favorite episodes. I can't get enough of those two in the
> resturant waiting for the geniuses...Niles popping the pills, sneezing and
> spitting them into his hand, looking at them for a moment, and popping them
> right back in again! And when he goes "naptkin naptkin naptkin
> naptkin...wheeee!" and starts blowing his lips out like a little kid, I can't
> stop laughing!
>
Oh, oh! My favorite is the part where he completely loses it and starts going on
about how Frasier got the better bed. LOL!
Dorcie
MissMCMod
(besides "Noel") that I missed in season 2. Screwed up VCR... ::grumble::
>> >> Martin: Your mother always knew just what to say to cheer me up. "So
>what
>> >if
>> >> the trophy says Baking instead of Baseball, Marty? Catcher's mitts or
>oven
>> >> mitts, they're our little champions."
>> >
>> >Ha! I just watched this episode yesterday.
>> >
>> >Dorcie
>> >Niles: Apparently mom was being tactful.
>> >
>> I love Niles' expression when he says that!
>> IQ is one of my favorite episodes. I can't get enough of those two in the
>> resturant waiting for the geniuses...Niles popping the pills, sneezing and
>> spitting them into his hand, looking at them for a moment, and popping them
>> right back in again! And when he goes "naptkin naptkin naptkin
>> naptkin...wheeee!" and starts blowing his lips out like a little kid, I
>can't
>> stop laughing!
>>
>
>Oh, oh! My favorite is the part where he completely loses it and starts
>going on
>about how Frasier got the better bed. LOL!
>
>Dorcie
>
incoherently like that all the time! I also love "well, who's hallucinationing
now?!"
I have to admit, it took me at least 2 more viewings before I realized that
Niles was checking the *wrong* elbow, while his other one was just rolling
around in the butter! It just made me laugh even more ;)
Lani (ahh, good times!)
--------
Kreisleriana
"eunice" <eun...@gtemail.net> wrote in message
news:B794ADDD.7D0E%eun...@gtemail.net...
>
>
> > In article <a959564b.01080...@posting.google.com>,
> > eun...@gtemail.net says...
> >> "Felix Tiaka" <fe...@tiaka.com> wrote in message
> >> news:<9kmisg$5he8q$1...@ID-51106.news.dfncis.de>...
> >>> : > Felix "It's because only a man knows how a woman is supposed to
act"
> >>> Tiaka
> >>> : > 5 Cookies to whoever gets the quote.
> >>> :
> >>> : M. Butterfly.
> >>> :
> >>> : Linda
> >>>
> >>> Open wide.
> >>> Yes, Cronenberg has John Lone play opposite of Jeremy Irons. Hmm..
speaking
> >>> of
> >>> which, wasn't John Lithgow in the play once? I remember a poster.
> >>
> >> Yep.
> >>
> >> eunice
> >>
> >
> > His first big movie role was in THE WORLD ACCORDING TO GARTH playing the
> > lovely Roberta Muldoon.
> >
> > Regards .... Les
>
> Yep. He made one UGLY woman :)
>
> eunice
Immortal line: "Well, I was under anesthesia, but getting it bitten off in
a Buick!?????"
Theresa
>
Kreisleriana
"traxland" <trax...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:3B7030CA...@uswest.net...
(snip)
> season 9 because we know the time slot, the writers have motivation from
the slack
> season 8 and no one's pregnant, even though with DHP in the play and no
rest, I
> think he may look very old and tired.
>
> Megan (Reason 11 this season sucked: David never took off his shirt )
If he looks so old and tired, why do you want to see him without his shirt?
Theresa
C2001
> This is the problem I find in a lot of shows. They don't have the
> characters grow up. Even "Cheers," near the final seasons, I completely
> lost all interest in Sam. He was still the same oversexed man that he was
> at the beginning except now he didn't have a relationship that humanized him
> as he had in the early seasons AND he was no longer young. He became more
> pathetic than anything else. Thank god they had other more interesting
> characters on that show.
I suspect this is one of the reasons Ted Danson wanted out.
Charles
C2001
> While we shouldn't simply overlook the pre-"DR" period, I think it can be set
> aside in terms of predicting the show's future quality. I hate to find a down
> side to the birth of a new child, but for our selfish purposes JL's pregnancy
> did make the show less recognizable: fat jokes as a part of the comedic
> repertoire, almost no sexual tension between Niles and Daphne (not, obviously, a
> necessary result of pregnancy -- or the fictional weight gain explanation -- but
> it did seem like the actors had a hard time adjusting), and worst of all, it
> kept JL out of four episodes.
I think all the problems people have had with S8 come down to one
thing: Jane Leeves' pregnancy.
There was no way they could write her out of the show for a few months
(which I'd strongly recommend if she has another kid during the next
three years [and if she and her husband want more she likely will, given
her age], because I think a child for Niles and Daphne would just
clutter up the show), after the buildup re the Niles/Daphne arc which
peaked at the end of S7.
The writers did their best to make the most of a near-impossible
situation. If there were an Emmy award for writing 'around' such
difficult scenarios regarding the actors' personal lives (pregnancy,
injury, illness [I'm old enough to remember when Nanette Fabray was
hospitalized following an accident]), I'd award it to "Frasier" for S8!
Charles
Alastair Mowbray
>
><snipped yet further>
>
>> But the jokes were so lame. Except for Martin's "chickens holding a prayer
>> vigil" line and Niles' sly nod to JL's delivery ("She's lost nine pounds, twelve
>> ounces"), they weren't worthy of the show.
>>
>
>Don't forget the "It took three Cranes to lift you" joke as well as the sly "They're
>jumbos" one.
>
Touche.
Uncle, uncle! I give in. "It Takes Two To Tangle" was undoubtedly a hilarious
episode that mysteriously failed to make me laugh more than once or twice.
Obviously, something is wrong with my sense of humor. I'll be going in for
emergency surgery to correct the problem, so don't expect me back on ATF for a
while. <g>
However, it does make me wonder... If you could laugh at the above lines (which
are okay, but seem very typical of a filler episode to me -- lots of
self-referential irony and caricatured situations) and if you enjoyed the fat
jokes, how could S8 have been such a disaster?
It can't possibly have been as bad as S6, which was nearly enough to turn me off
from Frasier permanently. It might be bad to have a lack of focus, but it's even
worse to have focus in the wrong place -- and to have your best writers either
defect to a Nathan Lane vehicle or come up with story lines about a rotting
seal, Frasier being mistaken for a homeless person, and Daphne falling for
Donny.
Alastair
KACL Ann
"Mike and Dorcie" <miken...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3B6F44C8...@mindspring.com...
>I can only count on one hand the truly funny moments Niles had in Season
>8.
Okay, I'm game, go ahead and list.......I'm sure you'll run out of digits
before you run out of instances.
KACL Ann <glad to see you got that I was picking on Felix and not you>
Paul Hammond
Bridget A Goodman wrote in message ...
>On 07 Aug 2001 00:00:50 GMT, Tovah Anne <tova...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>yeah, i agree- the build up to niles and daphne getting together was a
lot
>>>more exciting than once they finally did get together.... not to mention
>>>that dr. mary drives me nuts!!!
>>
>>Oh, I love you! I can't stand Dr. Mary either! I loved both episodes she
was
>>in, well, that is minus her parts, everything else was superb. Nice to
know I'm
>>not alone.
>
>Am I the only one here who 1) likes Dr. Mary in general and 2) liked the
>Mary Christmas ep?
>
No. I liked it too - but then I just love the way "Dr" Mary gets up
Frasier's nose.
Paul
Donnie Falcone
SNIPPED
>> >Dorcie
>>
>> Are you going into the Witness Protection Programme <g> ?
>
>If necessary I could plead insanity.
I think you already have.
Do...uhh, Anonymous Falcone @ Damn!
>
>
>>
>> Donnie "I Would't SAY That Drunk" Falcone
>> >
>
>hee hee
>
>
>Dorcie
Donnie Falcone
<miken...@mindspring.com> wrote:
SNIPPED
>great moments, but when taken as a whole, the season was really bad.
>Don't worry, though, I am nothing if not fair. I will attempt to come
>up with some good things about the season. Later.
>
>
>
>Dorcie
Now look what you've gone and done.
>
For our own safety could we all agree that "poor" Frasier is better
than current "Friends" ?
Name Withheld For Reasons Of Personal Safety
Donnie Falcone
But you have no taste Paul!
Donnie "Or Was That Me?" Falcone
>
Mike and Dorcie
Point taken.
>
> However, it does make me wonder... If you could laugh at the above lines (which
> are okay, but seem very typical of a filler episode to me -- lots of
> self-referential irony and caricatured situations) and if you enjoyed the fat
> jokes, how could S8 have been such a disaster?
>
See, that's the thing. I only liked a few of the fat jokes, the rest I just tried to
ignore. As for "It Takes Two to Tangle", it reminded me of a lot of "Frasier" episodes from
the first three seasons.
>
> It can't possibly have been as bad as S6, which was nearly enough to turn me off
> from Frasier permanently. It might be bad to have a lack of focus, but it's even
> worse to have focus in the wrong place -- and to have your best writers either
> defect to a Nathan Lane vehicle or come up with story lines about a rotting
> seal, Frasier being mistaken for a homeless person, and Daphne falling for
> Donny.
I dunno. I like "To Tell the Truth". As for the other episodes of Season 6, I really only
have a problem with the ones that focus on Frasier not having aj ob, which isn't all of the
first 12 episodes. I thought the season took a turn for the better after he got his job
back. Besides, nothing in Season 6 seemed as bad to me as the writers turning Niles and
Daphne into irritating nitwits.
Dorcie
Mike and Dorcie
I believe I have already done this.
>
> Name Withheld For Reasons Of Personal Safety
HAW!
Dorcie
Mike and Dorcie
Okay, I know I am in the minority, but I really was not impressed with the
whole kite incident. Really. It probably didn't help that I saw him almost
go over the balcony in the promos before I saw the episode.
So..
1. Niles as a backrow hooligan
2. Niles talking about "public nnnnudity"
3. The look on his face when Daphne asks if they will snorkel
4. Niles talking about sinking the shot "from way downtown"
5. Niles fainting
....
Oh all right! Here's the rest:
6. The "unconditional request"
7. "Bad, *bad* cook".
That's it.
Dorcie
Kreisleriana
I liked Niles checking out Daphne's chest while she was asleep.
Theresa
>
eunice
Well, I would have blocked that out too if I were him :)
eunice
Mike and Dorcie
Oops. I had forgotten about their "sleeping groove" problems. I did enjoy the
first part of that as well when she pushes him off the bed.
Dorcie
Bokman7757
>> --------
>> Daphne: They went to a tractor pull.
>> Niles: Oh!
>> Daphne: As I understand it, they attach a large weight to a tractor, and
>see
>> how far they can pull it through the mud.
>> Niles: Oh!
>> Daphne: The answer to your next question is, "Beats the hell out of me."
>
>The funny thing about this quote is that Niles said in Season 4 or 5 that
>he had
>gone with is father to a tractor pull, so he should have known what it was.
Still, any excuse to talk with Daphne...
(OTOH, maybe he suppressed that traumatic memory...)
traxland
Kreisleriana wrote:
In my opinion, he's looks fine but I do remember the discussion about him
looking his age or older this past season, some seem to think he's looking
rough. But as I put before, he looks fine.
Megan (whose VCR is throwing a fit and is missing the first season on
syndication)
Dorcie
Perhaps this is one of the reasons there seems to be a push to get
Frasier a stable girlfriend. The man was nearly fifty and is still
single before the whole Claire/Lana thing came along.
Dorcie
C2001
> C2001 wrote:
> > eunice wrote:
> > > This is the problem I find in a lot of shows. They don't have the
> > > characters grow up. Even "Cheers," near the final seasons, I completely
> > > lost all interest in Sam. He was still the same oversexed man that he was
> > > at the beginning except now he didn't have a relationship that humanized him
> > > as he had in the early seasons AND he was no longer young. He became more
> > > pathetic than anything else. Thank god they had other more interesting
> > > characters on that show.
> >
> > I suspect this is one of the reasons Ted Danson wanted out.
>
> Frasier a stable girlfriend. The man was nearly fifty and is still
> single before the whole Claire/Lana thing came along.
Er..., I don't detect any 'push' from the writers to get Frasier a
stable GF, at least not from anything during the past season or so.
The push seems to be coming from ATF!!!
I do think people are tired of borderline-farce episodes (I don't mean
"The Ski Lodge", which was _genuine_ farce [and not just for Frasier])
with Frasier having yet another botched romance with yet another bimbo.
In real life, there are lots of men like Frasier (middle-aged, educated,
affluent, still single [usually divorced] etc.) who go for one-night
stands with bimbos, simply for (hopefully) a few hours of (they hope)
great sex. But they don't take them seriously as Frasier is often
portrayed as doing (eg, Duke's daughter played by Teri Hatcher, or
Caitlyn the moon-howling, driftwood sculptress played by Lisa
Edelstein).
My view is, if the show is to continue for three more years, there _is_
a need for some change in the dynamics of Frasier's love life. But a
steady GF will only work if the character is *very* carefully created
and written, and equally carefully cast -- and that's a tall order, even
for people as experienced and skilled as the show's veteran producers
and casting staff.
I still think the ideal scenario would be for Lilith to move to Seattle
and become a more regular cast member, though not necessarily to be
reunited with Frasier in matrimony or an immediate/regular sexual
relationship. There is still huge story potential IMO if Bebe Neuwirth
were sufficiently available -- which, unfortunately, from most reports
doesn't seem likely.
Bringing Lilith into the show, I consider, could enrich almost every
aspect of its scenario _without_ disrupting its existing strong points
and related structure. It would also take a lot of the heat away from
the Niles/Daphne arc, which has arguably generated several of the show's
best-ever episodes but which is becoming more challenging for the
producers and currently, it seems, generating ambivalent reaction from
regular fans (for me the jury remains out, because Jane Leeves' recent
pregnancy obviously placed horrific contraints on what the writers could
do with the couple during S8).
I think I said this a few months ago, but if it were possible to have
more of Lilith, the (probably) final three seasons could focus on the
interaction and dynamics of the two brothers, one adjusting to a new
love interest he'd only dreamed of for seven years, and the other still
coping with the ambivalence of a former spouse with whom he has a strong
rapport and sympathy, despite their often competitive and acrimonious
past.
But I know this probably isn't going to happen.
*SIGH* (Dorcie-like [who else......? <g>])
Charles
Calley215
>and become a more regular cast member,
The problem with that would be the show is depending on past success. Sans
Lilith, there hasn't been a Cheers member on the show since 6th season. I think
the show is above bringing back the past. I think there is a lot more future in
Lana. She's new and there is a future for her (depth and what not).
C2001
I see your point, but I don't agree.
If all I were suggesting was resurrecting someone from Frasier's
"Cheers" past, then it could be any of the old gang (FWIW, I'd love a
(but probably one only) guest gig from Carla [who was my favourite
character on "Cheers"]).
Even getting more Frasier-specific I wouldn't, for example, suggest
digging up Diane as a regular GF or other presence because there was
never the personal (or acting [vis-a-vis KG and SL]) chemistry between
Frasier and Diane which existed between Frasier and Lilith and which has
continued brilliantly with Lilith's sporadic, but always memorable,
guest appearances on "Frasier".
As for Lana/Lorna, all I can say is I *DON'T* llllllllllllllike her!
(ruh...-LLLLLLAY-sh'n-ship.......? [EEK!].)
She's been presented as an hysterical, borderline-certifiable shrew who
could probably tame (or at least terrify) even Maris. To make her
Frasier's regular GF, they'd have to tone down her personality to an
extent that would strain credulity, allowing for even the most
liberal-minded sitcom-standard artistic license. It would be about as
believable as Niles suddenly dumping Daphne and pairing off with Annie
from "The Ski Lodge", or Martin suddenly falling hard for Roz' mom
(portrayed by Eva Marie Saint), or Simon suddenly morphing into a
perfect English gentleman and marrying Roz (this would be unbelievable
on both sides of the fence [with or without also morphing Roz!]).
I've suggested Lilith -- albeit, well aware it's not likely to happen
for practical, never mind debatable artistic, reasons -- only because I
consider the past history provides the foundation for potentially
phenomenal new shows. To keep things in perspective, it's known that
when "Cheers" ended in 1993, Kelsey Grammer initially didn't want to
play Frasier any more (he discussed this in some detail in his recent
Banff interview), but was convinced to change his mind when a whole new
and _future_ context for the character was proposed.
Charles
Calley215
>could probably tame (or at least terrify) even Maris. To make her
>Frasier's regular GF, they'd have to tone down her personality to an
>extent that would strain credulity, allowing for even the most
>liberal-minded sitcom-standard artistic license
No, no, if they toned her down she'd be either boring or unbearable (i.e.
Poppy, the UNCOUNTABLE [though we've tried] amount of girlfriends). I like
Lana, just the way she is. I think Jean Smart does a fabulous job with her and
the character is hilarious.But, don't get me wrong. If ever LIlith is on you
can all bet I'll be sitting in from of the tv tuning in.
C2001
I agree Jean Smart is outstanding. It takes real talent and skill for
an actor to make such an ill-mannered character somehow empathetic.
The advantage I see re Lilith is the long-established history between
her and Frasier plus the tremendous chemistry between KG and BN, which I
regard as a cornucopia of opportunity. (Doesn't that sound like
something Frasier might say at his most pretentious?)
Charles
Dorcie
> Dorcie wrote:
> > C2001 wrote:
> > > eunice wrote:
> > > > This is the problem I find in a lot of shows. They don't have the
> > > > characters grow up. Even "Cheers," near the final seasons, I completely
> > > > lost all interest in Sam. He was still the same oversexed man that he was
> > > > at the beginning except now he didn't have a relationship that humanized him
> > > > as he had in the early seasons AND he was no longer young. He became more
> > > > pathetic than anything else. Thank god they had other more interesting
> > > > characters on that show.
> > >
> > > I suspect this is one of the reasons Ted Danson wanted out.
> >
> > Perhaps this is one of the reasons there seems to be a push to get
> > Frasier a stable girlfriend. The man was nearly fifty and is still
> > single before the whole Claire/Lana thing came along.
>
> Er..., I don't detect any 'push' from the writers to get Frasier a
> stable GF, at least not from anything during the past season or so.
>
> The push seems to be coming from ATF!!!
>
I seem to recall reading a KG interview where he stated that it was
time that Frasier got a stable girlfriend.
> I do think people are tired of borderline-farce episodes (I don't mean
> "The Ski Lodge", which was _genuine_ farce [and not just for Frasier])
> with Frasier having yet another botched romance with yet another bimbo.
"Legal Tender Love and Care" was the straw that broke the camel's
back, imo.
>
> In real life, there are lots of men like Frasier (middle-aged, educated,
> affluent, still single [usually divorced] etc.) who go for one-night
> stands with bimbos, simply for (hopefully) a few hours of (they hope)
> great sex. But they don't take them seriously as Frasier is often
> portrayed as doing (eg, Duke's daughter played by Teri Hatcher, or
> Caitlyn the moon-howling, driftwood sculptress played by Lisa
> Edelstein).
>
The one time that he did something stupid and lost the girl that I can
stand to watch is the one relationship he admitted up front was only
about sex - Dr. Honey Snow.
> My view is, if the show is to continue for three more years, there _is_
> a need for some change in the dynamics of Frasier's love life. But a
> steady GF will only work if the character is *very* carefully created
> and written, and equally carefully cast -- and that's a tall order, even
> for people as experienced and skilled as the show's veteran producers
> and casting staff.
>
I dunno. I know you are against Frasier having a relationship with
Lana based on the fact that she was first introduced as someone
Frasier would have no interest in whatsoever. However, I think I
agree with Theresa (I think it was her that wrote this) in that Lana
was at a time in her life in "Big Crane On Campus" where everything
was going wrong and her behavior showed this. The writers really
calmed her down for the last few episodes of Season 8, and she grown
on me. I think it would be interesting to see the two together.
hee
I am never able to say for sure that I would like for Lilith to have a
bigger role in Frasier's life and on the show. I have immensely
enjoyed every episode that she has been in, but I can't help but think
that there might be such a thing as too much Lilith.
Dorcie
Dorcie
eunice
Well, being single at 50 is not a sign of immaturity and not growing up.
After all, Frasier has been growing and changing as a character all this
time. BUT I am glad that Frasier seems to have found a "love." Even
fictional TV characters deserve some happiness :)
eunice
eunice
> I still think the ideal scenario would be for Lilith to move to Seattle
> and become a more regular cast member, though not necessarily to be
> reunited with Frasier in matrimony or an immediate/regular sexual
> relationship. There is still huge story potential IMO if Bebe Neuwirth
> were sufficiently available -- which, unfortunately, from most reports
> doesn't seem likely.
I don't think that's ideal at all! I adore Lilith and she is a great
character, but bringing her in as a regular would be a "Cheers" rehash and
not "Frasier."
eunice
eunice
> As for Lana/Lorna, all I can say is I *DON'T* llllllllllllllike her!
> (ruh...-LLLLLLAY-sh'n-ship.......? [EEK!].)
I like her and I think Jean Smart is fabulous. I never thought much of her
in her previous work ("Designing Women"), but she really is a dynamo. I
love the chemistry that she and Kelsey have. I also love the fact that she
is Frasier's age. I am so sick and tired of Frasier dating women
practically half his age. Also Jean is tall and they physically look better
together than Frasier's previous dates/girlfriends.
> She's been presented as an hysterical, borderline-certifiable shrew who
> could probably tame (or at least terrify) even Maris. To make her
> Frasier's regular GF, they'd have to tone down her personality to an
> extent that would strain credulity, allowing for even the most
> liberal-minded sitcom-standard artistic license.
They've already toned her down a tad from her original appearance by giving
her a warm, tender, and vulnerable side. I think the way she was in the
last few episodes works perfectly fine with Frasier's character. Besides,
as much as I adore Frasier, he isn't exactly your picture of a normal
healthy person :)
eunice
eunice
I don't know... I see Frasier as more of a "plethora" rather than a
"cornucopia" type of person :)
eunice
C2001
> I am never able to say for sure that I would like for Lilith to have a
> bigger role in Frasier's life and on the show. I have immensely
> enjoyed every episode that she has been in, but I can't help but think
> that there might be such a thing as too much Lilith.
I guess Martin and Niles (and Daphne!) would agree with you.
Charles
Marissa...Pets Rule
Lilith moving to Seattle would kill Daphne for sure.
Marissa
---
(Pets...@aol.com & Ris...@aol.com; CN: Ris...@yahoo.com)
----
"If I could take deep breaths it would mean I could breathe!"
-Dr. Niles Crane, Frasier: Season 6's "To Tell the Truth"
Mike and Dorcie
> >
> >
> >Dorcie wrote:
> >
> >> I am never able to say for sure that I would like for Lilith to have a
> >> bigger role in Frasier's life and on the show. I have immensely
> >> enjoyed every episode that she has been in, but I can't help but think
> >> that there might be such a thing as too much Lilith.
> >
> >I guess Martin and Niles (and Daphne!) would agree with you.
>
hee hee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Charles
> >
>
> Lilith moving to Seattle would kill Daphne for sure.
>
> Marissa
>
LOL!!! Poor Niles. In this case, she really would have a headache.
Dorcie
C2001
> >Dorcie wrote:
> >> I am never able to say for sure that I would like for Lilith to have a
> >> bigger role in Frasier's life and on the show. I have immensely
> >> enjoyed every episode that she has been in, but I can't help but think
> >> that there might be such a thing as too much Lilith.
> >
> >I guess Martin and Niles (and Daphne!) would agree with you.
>
HEY!
There's the _perfect_ solution if Jane becomes pregnant again: bring
back Lilith for a few months and send Daphne to Switzerland (the
Clinique Of Miracles described in Jacqueline Susann's "Once Is Not
Enough") for the sleep cure (described in "Valley Of The Dolls") to cure
her psychic migraine headaches.
She could be seen in bed only, with devoted Niles at her side most of
the time but getting into trouble (cousin Yvonne might hear about it and
fly to Europe to stalk him en route to a visit with her Greek relations
in Patmos [also described in "Once Is Not Enough"]).
And of course he'd run into Maris who'd show up for goat-placenta
treatments.
Charles
Bokman7757
>> Lilith moving to Seattle would kill Daphne for sure.
>>
>> Marissa
>>
>
>LOL!!! Poor Niles. In this case, she really would have a headache.
I think she's becoming gradually immune, though. In "The Apparent Trap" she
managed to stay on her feet.
Mike and Dorcie
True. It was Eddie that sensed the "vortex of evil" this time.
Dorcie
SeemaJ
>I agree Jean Smart is outstanding. It takes real talent and skill for
>an actor to make such an ill-mannered character somehow empathetic.
>
>The advantage I see re Lilith is the long-established history between
>her and Frasier plus the tremendous chemistry between KG and BN, which I
>regard as a cornucopia of opportunity. (Doesn't that sound like
>something Frasier might say at his most pretentious?)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Charles
>
>
Lilith on the show would be kick-ass awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
--Seema:) (completely agreeing, but trying to bring the pretentiousness down a
notch;))
Marissa...Pets Rule
Reminds me of the chile preferences in A Tsar is Born.
Tovah Anne
AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Anything but Lana! No, no relationship, bad, bad relationship,
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
~Laura <pulling hair>
Tovah Anne
>>
>>> I am never able to say for sure that I would like for Lilith to have a
>>> bigger role in Frasier's life and on the show. I have immensely
>>> enjoyed every episode that she has been in, but I can't help but think
>>> that there might be such a thing as too much Lilith.
>>
>>I guess Martin and Niles (and Daphne!) would agree with you.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Charles
>>
>
>Lilith moving to Seattle would kill Daphne for sure.
>
>Marissa
>
>---
My guess is not. Daphne hasn't had headaches in the last few times she's seen
Lilith (she didn't even sense her coming) and with the ending of her "powers"
this season it's sure not to be brought up. It's a shame, too, I thought the
psychic stuff was a good bit.
~Laura
Tovah Anne
>> >
>> >>> I will attempt to come
>> >>> up with some good things about the season. Later.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Bored, huh?
>> >
>> > How'd ya guess?<g>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dorcie
>>
>> You wouldn't be bored if you had cable!!! <vbg>
>>
>> eunice
>
>LOL!!!
>
>I wouldn't have a life if I had cable. I clearly remember the couch
>zombie that I used to be, and I am a little scared to go back to having
>the capability of watching so much TV.
>
>
>Dorcie
I wouldn't be. My parents are now the proud owners of 400 + channels. I never
watch. Of course, I was weened off of television my first year in college when
I had none. Now all I really watch is Frasier, and I've been lacking at that
due to limited time to do other things. Besides, having so many channels takes
too long to see what is on, by the time you finish new programs are on. Of
course, if I had more time I might watch more, either that or I've finally
reached my limit (I was a tv child, I used to wait for commercials to help me
decide what toys to play with), who knows.
~Laura
C2001
heehee...
I still feel the writers might risk putting themselves in the booby
hatch (or else the Betty Ford) if they successfully made the requisite
effort to make Lana/Lorna work in the longer run. But I suppose
anything's possible.
My reason for prefering Lilith, btw, has nothing to do with past history
on "Cheers" _per se_, as a couple of people have suggested.
As I tried to explain in my earlier post, there is tremendous history
between Frasier and Lilith and tremendous chemistry between the two
actors involved: it's *future* possibilities that tantalize [<g>] me,
not trying to relive the past (which in showbiz is almost always a
mistake and results in failure).
Plus from my own perspective, I never saw even one episode of "Cheers"
during its original run. I only started catching up with it in
syndication as a result of my starting to watch "Frasier" back in 1996.
For an insider perspective, the closest parallel I can cite is to recall
the posts here from Dan O'Shannon a bit more than a year ago when some
people complained that Niles' being willing to dump Mel (after just a
few days of marriage) when Daphne finally became available was somehow
"against" his character. As I recall, Mr. O'Shannon stated what we were
seeing was a previously unrevealed aspect of Niles' character.
If it were possible to incorporate Lilith into the show more regularly
for the next three years, what I'd hope for would be _new_ dynamics and
scenarios between her and Frasier (and others), _certainly not_ rehashes
of "Cheers" plots from 10-15 years ago. In fact, I'd say the producers
already took a step in such a direction more back in S5 with "Room
Service".
Charles