THE JANETTE DEBATE...finally settled?!?...
Mike Miller
OK, Everybody, guess what? If the trend goes as it has ( that is, the
syndicated episodes are the same ones showing on SCI-FI as well), then
tonight SFC will air "The Human Factor" once again (hoorah!!) and the
debate for those who did *not* type it the first time (like me) will be
settled!!!
Spoilers ahead--for those of you who would perfer to watch--but those
who don't, or can't etc., here goes....
OK, that should be enough space...
Not that we ever doubted you really, Tammy, but I guess some of us were
just so blown away by the whole "make-love-and-become-human"
storyline--plus the return of Janette (how much have we missed her?!?),
and that little curve-ball dream sequence at the end--(beta blockers,
norepinephrine, PREGNANCY?!? WHAT?!!!?) but yes, guys & gals, we can
rejoice at last, for, actually paying attention to what i was supposed
to be paying attention to this time, JANETTE IS ALIVE!!!!! (Well,
*Undead*, anyway... ;)
I'm sure it's all been said by poor Tammy, who exhausted herself in
trying to get everyone to believe that Nick brought Janette back
across...and how many of us just wouldn't listen? (Thank you for your
efforts, tho, Tammy, it was appreciated, believe it or not.) We wanted
to see for ourselves..and now's our one and only chance! IF you just
don't believe, here are four things that will tell you beyond a shadow
fo a doubt--assuming you get this before the show airs, which may not be
likely--(aside from the "Nick vamping out" bit, which was the last thing
that *I* remembered):
1.) At the Civic center--as Nat shows Nick, the two bad guys (?) were
obviously ex-sanguinated (sp?) by one of our Friends, of whom it most
likely would either have been Nick or Janette, as anyone else would
simply complicate the storyline. And it obviously wasn't Nick, given
his complete surprise when Nat showed him the punture wounds. (Wasn't
too happy, either, was she? Do we get the feeling that Nat has, like, a
JEALOUSY streak a MILE-LONG?--Sorry--
2.) The money hadn't been touched from the locker, but the key was still
there (OK, it's a weak point, I'm not really sure where I"m going w/ it,
so I'll move on...
3.) *Someone* is watching Nick from a "lofty" postion at the Civic
center--Sorry, but I don;t believe that's just another odd camera angle,
folks--not when Nick looked around for her as tho sensing her.
4.) The most IMPORTANT one of all: the conversation between LC & Nick,
repeated verbatim for you here:
LC: Even Leonardo couldn't capture all of her beauty. Strange hoe
things turn out, isn't it? Thru hellish circumstance she obtains what
has proven so elusive to you, ONLY TO HAVE THAT ONE-IN-A-BILLION
HAPPENSTANCE TAKEN FROM HER BY YOU? I don't know whether to laugh or to
cry for you, Nicholas.
Nick: (referring to the painting:) She must have left it here today.
You haven't told me everything.
LC: No. But then, neither have you. It seems I have lost a daughter
and regained a son.
(Then LC says some French word I don't understand; if anyone who knows
French could enlighten me with the meaning, I would be forever grateful.
:)
And there you have it, Ladies and Gentleman. Our beloved Janette is
alive and kicking(hopefully everyone will see that this time around),
and thanks again to Tammy for her patience in trying to make us see.
~~Christina~~
m...@ids2.idsonline.com
Mike Miller wrote:
>
>
snip snip snip (and all of it was good too)
> :)
>
> And there you have it, Ladies and Gentleman. Our beloved Janette is
> alive and kicking(hopefully everyone will see that this time around),
> and thanks again to Tammy for her patience in trying to make us see.
>
> ~~Christina~~
Yes, I too, at first was doubtful, and thought, how possibly could Nick
bring her back across when she didn't want it..but he could, (IMHO) and
he did.
This episode was confusing the first go around, maybe because there were
a few tiny, little inconsistancies (that I personally found pretty damn
annoying). For example, Nick, who is fairly hungry all the time (it
seems) would most likely have noticed that Janette had a heart beat long
before she got shot. (or at least noticed that something was different -
I mean besides that her fashion sense had gone...).
I thought that Nat was poorly written - her jealousy here was demeaning,
sort of like, "If I can't cure a vampire then no one can..". All sorts
of jealousy makes people do all sorts of things, but Nat has had to live
with her jealousy of Janette for awhile (think back to The Fix - Nat
"cures" Nick and he runs off to bring Janette back over - that must of
hurt!) along with the idea that Nick had shared something with Janette
she can never understand- but, if she is strong logical scientist(as
she has been played and written for the most part), don't you think
curiosity would win her over, and disguise her jealousy (if not some
tiny little bit of dignity and self-preservation)?
And, finaly the cure thing was, frankly, a little too out there for me.
It seems that it would follow that if you could be brought back across
this way, you could be brought across by a similar (though opposite
experience). It wasn't a blood involved cure, but an individual
biochemical one. If this were true, in Last Knight, Natalie's love for
Nick could bring her across into Vampirism when (and if) she watches him
get the final blow. While some might find it romantic......
However, I miss Janette, and I liked her far better as a vampire - so in
the end, I am happy with the outcome...
mac
JohnGorno
The phrase is the common French/English aphorism: "Le plus qui change, le
meme chose" (pronounced Le ploos qi chonj, le mem chohs) And he repeats,
"Le meme chose." (forgive my spelling if my high school French isn't
remembered right: it was 13 years ago!) This is often shortened to
simply "Le plus qui change..." and means: "the more things change, the
more they stay the same." Despite all this, I will weigh in _against_
the undead status quo whenever my latest opus is completed!
JF
p.s., in his earlier line, Lacroix may have in mind Heraclitus, the Sage
who wept at the folly of the world, and Democritus, who laughed at it!
(Courtesy of Michel de Montaigne).
William R. Thompson
In <31D934...@ids2.idsonline.com> m...@ids2.idsonline.com writes:
>
>Mike Miller wrote:
>I thought that Nat was poorly written - her jealousy here was
>demeaning, sort of like, "If I can't cure a vampire then no one
>can..." All sorts of jealousy makes people do all sorts of things,
>but Nat has had to live with her jealousy of Janette for awhile (think
>back to "The Fix"--Nat "cures" Nick and he runs off to bring Janette
>back over - that must have hurt!) along with the idea that Nick had
>shared something with Janette she can never understand--but, if she is
>a strong, logical scientist (as she has been played and written for
>the most part), don't you think curiosity would win her over, and
>disguise her jealousy (if not some tiny little bit of dignity and
>self-preservation)?
I thought her jealousy had nothing to do with the scientific
aspects of the cure, but with Janette herself. Natalie has devoted
six years of her life to Nick, and not managed to cure him. Now
here's her old rival for his affections, showing him a cure. How
is she supposed to compete with somebody who can (1) give him what
he wants the most, and (2) has known him for almost eight centuries
more than Natalie has? Especially when all this comes out of
nowhere? It's kind of hard to hide your feelings when you're taken
by surprise.
The scene in the morgue would have been disappointing without that
jealousy. Jealousy is a natural human feeling when you're in love
and think someone might take your lover away. Considering the depth
of Natalie's feelings for Nick, it would have seemed unnatural for
her not to show a fairly intense reaction to Janette's return, almost
a signal that she didn't really care for Nick. Whatever her
feelings, she didn't let them interfere with her professional and
scientific behavior. She stitched up Janette and gave her some
pain-killers (when she could have spitefully "forgotten" to do so),
and she asked some probing questions that explored the nature of
the cure (and, incidentally, let us see Janette's feelings for Robert,
as well as her reborn humanity). And at the end of the morgue
scene Natalie did lighten up a bit in her attitude toward Janette.
She was in control of her emotions, but if she hadn't displayed them,
she would have seemed wimpy or unfeeling.
--Bill Thompson
Lisa Acton
m...@ids2.idsonline.com wrote:
>This episode was confusing the first go around, maybe because there were
>a few tiny, little inconsistancies
Question, when Nick and Janette go to get the evidence out of the
locker several strange things happen. First is the long shot of the
female cop walking past Nick and looking directly at him. Long enough
to really remember what he looks like and who he was with. (Can you
say, possible future flashback) Later just before Janette gets shot,
watch her as she runs down the stairs. She obviously drops some type
of book or notepad. At first I thought this was just a blooper and
that she must have dropped the script or something but in the next
shot of the bad guys at the top of the stairs the book is obviously
still on the steps. The bad guys, for some strange reason, do not
chase Nick and Janette as most bad guys would, but instead leave
before going down the stairs and having a chance to see the book. Next
the same female cop as before yells at Nick and Janette just before
they escape though the door. When this happens the cop is still at
the top of the steps and has not yet seen the book. Like any good cop
she would have given chase at least out of the building thus giving
her a chance to see and pickup the book.
So the question is, what was dropped on the step. If it was a blooper
then why didn't someone pick it up before they filmed the other two
shots.
Possible although improbable answer, it could have been Janettes
journal describing how she became a vampire and how she
became human again. At the end of the episode when Nick is talking
to LC he says "you haven’t told me everything." and LC replies " Then
again, neither have you." What LC might not have told Nick is the
answer to why Janette really became mortal again. The cop could have
found the book which contains information about vampires, maybe even
how to bring one back from the dead. The cop later (after Last Knight)
Nicks picture in the obituary, recognizes it as the guy she saw at the
locker, thinks the book belongs to him, and goes to his grave to bring
him back to life possibly even years later.
Hmm, something to think about. :-)
-Lisa
Lisa Burstiner
I want to thank all of you who have posted their interpretations of The
Human Factor. After watching it again the other night on the Sci-Fi
channel, it was so clear to me that Janette is alive. LaCroix's speech
at the end makes so much sense if you listen with the premise that
Janette is alive, and when Natalie shows Nick the two dead bodies at the
Civic Center, he very obviously looks up at the skylight.
It really does help to hear what others have to say, because if hadn't
read everyone else's thoughts on the matter, it would've taken me quite a
while to reach that conclusion. Yet another great thing about FK and what
makes it so infuriating that it was canceled: the writers leave enough up
to the viewers' interpretation and imagination.
LB
mo...@cncnet.com
Here is another thought that I have not seen anywhere.
Suppose Janette *has* become mortal again - but when she dies as a
mortal, she again becomes "undead", or a vampire, without the need of
anyone to bring her back "across".
And what does "across" mean, anyway? Across *what*?
:-)
Moochie
JohnGorno
In article <4rbm5i$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, john...@aol.com
(JohnGorno) writes:
>The phrase is the common French/English aphorism: "Le plus qui change,
le
>meme chose"
Pardon me, Lacroix just says "Le plus qui change..., Nicholas..., Le plus
qui change... ," which is how one conveys the phrase without boring
people with the rest of the cliche (like "he who fights and runs
away,..."). I had a nagging feeling which bugged me until I remembered
that he'd truncated it, which I somehow forgot while typing the (full)
translation! (val oil fumes?)
JF
"Age! Si hic non insanit satis sua sponte, instige!"
("Way to go! If he's not crazy enough as he is, egg him on!")
(Again, courtesy of Michel De Montaigne (amd M.A. Screech), whose "Penguin
60" is sojourning by my computer.)
William R. Thompson
In <4rd3u1$4...@sun.quiknet.com> <mo...@cncnet.com> writes:
>
>Here is another thought that I have not seen anywhere.
>
>Suppose Janette *has* become mortal again - but when she dies as a
In some legends, you don't have to be attacked by a vampire to become
one. Being cursed will do quite nicely. And in "Francesca" it was
suggested that a vampire's spirit was doomed to be reincarnated one way
or another. Of course there are uncertainties in the exact nature of
FK vampirism--the supernatural vs. scientific vs. psychological
arguments.
>And what does "across" mean, anyway? Across *what*?
Across from the land of the living to the land of the dead. Or undead.
And back again, perhaps, although it would be interesting to see what
gets stamped on the appropriate passport.
--Bill Thompson
Allison Percy
JohnGorno (john...@aol.com) wrote:
: Pardon me, Lacroix just says "Le plus qui change..., Nicholas..., Le plus
: qui change... ,"
Actually, in French it's written "Plus ca change" with a cedilla (a kind
of squiggle) beneath the c in "ca". This is part of the phrase "Plus ca
change, plus c'est la meme chose," meaning the more things change, the
more they stay the same. What Lacroix says is "Plus ca change, Nicolas,
plus ca change." And in this case he pronounces Nicolas in the French way
("Neecolah"). Perhaps a tip of the hat to Janette, who always used this
pronunciation?
And BTW, I just saw Geraint Wyn Davies (who also directed this episode) at
a fan club meeting this past weekend, and he was really confused as to how
anyone could think Janette was dead. I guess it was obvious to those
involved in the production because they saw all the versions of the
script. (But heck, I didn't realize she'd been brought back across until
the third viewing.)
:^)
--
Allison Percy
per...@wharton.upenn.edu
--
lar...@flash.net
finally settled?? I hope so, She is still lurking around
somewhere. but I want to know, since she was a mortal
for awhile, are 'they' going to bridge her time?(civil service
humor)
Crystal Carroll
for vampires so does she get 800 years of credit or does she have to go
back to being a newbie albeit with lots of experience.
Midnight Tree Bandit
[minor Last Knight spoilers within]
Sometime in the last week or so, Mike Miller was seen stating:
>OK, Everybody, guess what? If the trend goes as it has ( that is, the
>syndicated episodes are the same ones showing on SCI-FI as well), then
>tonight SFC will air "The Human Factor" once again (hoorah!!) and the
>debate for those who did *not* type it the first time (like me) will be
>settled!!!
So tell me... why must it be settled? Thee'sd nothing wrong with a little
ambiguity in life, and I beleive that the issue of Janette's status was, like
the end of Final Knight, left somewhat ambiguous intentionally. This way, if
Janette never came back, there would be an explanation "Well, if only she had
let me bring her across..." If she did, there would also be an explanation,
"I hated you for bringing me back across, Nichola, but I now beleive you made
the right choice" (which is much more complete than that explaining LC's
return "I have lived too long to be killed so easily, Nicholas...").
Being ambiguous, of course, this leaves it to us to decide whether Janette is
alive or not, depending how badly we want her to be. Personally, I'd prefer
to think she's still knocking around the world somewhere. Just as I'd like to
think that Nick was not kneeling to wait for LC to execute him at the end of
Last Knight. Rather, that he was preparing to bring Natalie back and LC,
frustrated with Nick talk of faith and belief, very nearly struck out in a
lethal manner, but stopped himself soon after the camera panned away.
Speaking of Last Knight, I must say that was about the most depressing TV
experience I've ever had. I was in a funk for days after that. It's only TV,
it's not supposed to affect me that way. Only rarely happens to me. I think
the 1979 production of Lathe of Heaven (on PBS) was the last tv show to affect
me like that.
-=><=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
100,000 druids can't be wrong! | There are 178 parent languages on our
Rev. Midnight Tree Bandit (ULC) | planet, with over one thousand dialects.
mtba...@mindspring.com | It's amazing we communicate at all.
http://www.io.com/~mtbandit/ | -- EBN OZN
Sharon A. Himmanen
m...@ids2.idsonline.com wrote:
>I thought that Nat was poorly written - her jealousy here was demeaning,
>sort of like, "If I can't cure a vampire then no one can..". All sorts
>of jealousy makes people do all sorts of things, but Nat has had to live
>with her jealousy of Janette for awhile (think back to The Fix - Nat
>"cures" Nick and he runs off to bring Janette back over - that must of
>hurt!) along with the idea that Nick had shared something with Janette
>she can never understand- but, if she is strong logical scientist(as
>she has been played and written for the most part), don't you think
>curiosity would win her over, and disguise her jealousy (if not some
>tiny little bit of dignity and self-preservation)?
I disagree. I *loved* Natalie's reaction because it was so raw and so
unexpected and so *real*. Too often people portray Natalie as too
compassionate, too understanding, and so on. What I liked here is
that you can just see the bottom fall out of her entire world. First,
part of her reaction is that she thinks Nick and Janette have been
holding out on her. Wrong assumption, bug understandable under the
circumstances given that Nick just springs this on her with no
warning. Secondly, here's Janette, her sometimes-rival for Nick, back
and back as a mortal. Suddenly they are more even footing than they
have ever been before. I know a part of Nat has to be thinking that
she's just lost Nick. A part of her knows that the main thing that
attracts Nick to her is her mortality and while it's sad, she'd rather
have that than nothing. With Janette back under these circumstances,
she's afraid she's going to lose that.
What's so cool is that Nat probably can't even begin to catalog what's
going on there and most of this is subconscious. But I thought it was
very real--she just reacts, and she reacts badly. A very human things
to do.
What's also nice about the scene is that I think Janette understands
exactly what's going through Natalie at that moment. Nick, however,
as usual doesn't have a clue.
Sharon
Lisa Burstiner
Mike Miller <mmil...@infinet.com> wrote:
>
>OK, Everybody, guess what? If the trend goes as it has ( that is, the
>syndicated episodes are the same ones showing on SCI-FI as well), then
>tonight SFC will air "The Human Factor" once again (hoorah!!) and the
>debate for those who did *not* type it the first time (like me) will be
>settled!!!
>
<snip>
>4.) The most IMPORTANT one of all: the conversation between LC & Nick,
>repeated verbatim for you here:
>
>LC: Even Leonardo couldn't capture all of her beauty. Strange hoe
>things turn out, isn't it? Thru hellish circumstance she obtains what
>has proven so elusive to you, ONLY TO HAVE THAT ONE-IN-A-BILLION
>HAPPENSTANCE TAKEN FROM HER BY YOU? I don't know whether to laugh or to
>cry for you, Nicholas.
>
>Nick: (referring to the painting:) She must have left it here today.
>You haven't told me everything.
Okay, so have we ever determined what it is that LaCroix hasn't told Nick?
LB
kap...@hawaii.edu
You know, if I'm not mistaken, Geraint Wyn Davies himself said (I forgot where i read this) that yes, Janette IS alive. Well, that's enough to convince me!
Mike Miller
<SNIPPETS>
Lisa Acton wrote:
>
> m...@ids2.idsonline.com wrote:
>
> >This episode was confusing the first go around, maybe because there were
> >a few tiny, little inconsistancies
>
> Later just before Janette gets shot,
> watch her as she runs down the stairs. She obviously drops some type
> of book or notepad. At first I thought this was just a blooper and
> that she must have dropped the script or something but in the next
> shot of the bad guys at the top of the stairs the book is obviously
> still on the steps. The bad guys, for some strange reason, do not
> chase Nick and Janette as most bad guys would, but instead leave
> before going down the stairs and having a chance to see the book. Next
> the same female cop as before yells at Nick and Janette just before
> they escape though the door. When this happens the cop is still at
> the top of the steps and has not yet seen the book. Like any good cop
> she would have given chase at least out of the building thus giving
> her a chance to see and pickup the book.
> So the question is, what was dropped on the step. If it was a blooper
> then why didn't someone pick it up before they filmed the other two
> shots.
> Possible although improbable answer, it could have been Janettes
> journal describing how she became a vampire and how she
> became human again.
> Hmm, something to think about. :-)
>
> -Lisa
Yes, I noticed that also. I kept wondering what it was--why hadn't we
seen it before, and why did she bring it along? She couldn't have taken
it from the locker because, remember, they didn't actually *open* the
locker. I wonder if perhaps it orginally *did* have a purpose, that was
essentially explained (as much as FK ever does explaining) but cut out
in the final copy.)--It's a possibility; after all, there *are* spme
scenes (apparently) in the Canadian version--early seasons only, tho?
that are not in the US versions. And after once watching a movie in the
theatre and then seeing the video version 6 months later with an extra
15 minutes that made the movie CONSIDERABLY MORE understandable (you
would not have BELIEVED the difference it made-- all the allusions
finally fell into place!!) I now ALWAYS wonder whenver I see a
show/movie that doesn't seem to make as much sense as it should ( and
it's *not* because I'm dense!)
Anybody with "connections" have an answer?
~~Christina~~
Forever Knightie, Immoral Beloved/Nick&NatPacker/Ravenette (OK, So I'm a
little confused.. it's all those different personalities...damn that
MPD...uh,oh, here comes Jacqueline.... ;)
JohnGorno
The mysterious object Janette drops at the civic center may be intended to
be what leads the killers to Aunt Peggy's house.
JF