Dawson's Creek
Aaron Raphael Teitlebaum
(I've crossposted this to alt.tv.dawsons-creek from alt.tv.my-s-c-life.)
Dennis Hunter (dehu...@bellatlantic.net) wrote:
: With all this fuss over the show Dawson's Creek, I have only one
: question to ask, what are all the critics raving about?? Having
: experience two episodes already I am truly dissapointed. It is supposed
: to be about regular teens growing up, but seems like 20 year olds acting
: like teens. Let's look this over... How come every character always
: has someting to say?? They sound like they are reading from a
: dictionary (all the big, intelligent words). Why is the school so
: beautiful? It looks like a highschool campus and they look like college
: students. What teenager would honestly, how can I say this, seduce and
: talk to a teacher like that. I still have trouble answering teachers
: questions in class!! The list goes on and on. Nothing in the show even
: resembles a normal teenagers way of thinking or acting for that matter.
: For me it is a real put-down to the brilliant MSCL to be compared to
: this new show!! This isn't 'truth'!!
: Still in utter denial,
: /\my
My thoughts exactly. Maybe my problem is that I'm comparing Dawson's
Creek to My So-Called Life, but I think the comparisons are unavoidable,
especially since Kevin Williamson credits MSCL as one of his inspirations
in creating Dawson's Creek. I remember watching MSCL when it originally
aired, back when I was still in high school, and being continually
impressed with how accurately it depicted real life. Of course, I wasn't
privy to everything that it portrayed, but the parts I could identify with
were almost always on the mark. Dawson's Creek, on the other hand, takes
place in some Twilight Zone universe where the kids are adults and vice
versa. Watching the second episode, as 15-year-old Joey lectured Dawson's
mom about the "everlasting damage" her extramarital affair was inflicting
on Dawson, it became painfully clear that no real-world teenagers have
ever had it as good as these kids do. They never question their actions
or their motives, they never struggle to express themselves, they never
feel uncertainty or anxiety, and they are all completely unconcerned with
making bad impressions on other people. In short, they're nothing like
the characters on MSCL, and nothing like real teenagers at all.
I watched in disbelief as Dawson waxed philosophical to Jennifer about his
hopes for their relationship withouth a hint of anxiety in his voice (he
wanted to be her "boy adventure", he said, not her friend); as Pacey, who
describes himself as unsuccessful with girls, effortlessly rationalized
his relationship with his teacher; as Dawson essentially _commanded_
Jennifer's date to take a hike, with virtually no indication of any
uncertainty, beyond a comment or two about not having planned what to do
next. These kids speak to parents and teachers with an eloquent
self-confidence and determination unmatched by anything in real life; in
contrast, the kids on MSCL treated their teachers the way most of us did:
as authoritarians with whom contact was generally to be avoided, except
for the few "special" teachers who we connected with (characters like Vic
Racine or Mr. Katimsky, for example). I felt like I was watching a soap
opera, with its melodramatic disconnection from the inhibitions we all
face out in the real world, rather than the "realistic" teenage drama that
one reviewer promised would "make 'My So-Called Life' look like 'Joanie
Loves Chachi'". In my opinion, MSCL makes 'Dawson's Creek' look like
'Days of Our Lives'. Until the characters start acting like real people,
I'm going to keep watching MSCL reruns instead. (Hey, maybe they can add
Devon Gummersall as "transfer student" Brian Krakow! I know I'd watch it
then.. :)
Aaron Teitlebaum
arte...@engin.umich.edu
ShadZ
In article <6aqhrq$6...@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>,
arte...@blue.engin.umich.edu (Aaron Raphael Teitlebaum) wrote:
>
> (I've crossposted this to alt.tv.dawsons-creek from alt.tv.my-s-c-life.)
>
> Dennis Hunter (dehu...@bellatlantic.net) wrote:
> : With all this fuss over the show Dawson's Creek, I have only one
> : question to ask, what are all the critics raving about?? Having
> : experience two episodes already I am truly dissapointed. It is supposed
> : to be about regular teens growing up, but seems like 20 year olds acting
> : like teens. Let's look this over... How come every character always
> : has someting to say?? They sound like they are reading from a
> : dictionary (all the big, intelligent words). Why is the school so
> : beautiful? It looks like a highschool campus and they look like college
> : students. What teenager would honestly, how can I say this, seduce and
> : talk to a teacher like that. I still have trouble answering teachers
> : questions in class!! The list goes on and on. Nothing in the show even
> : resembles a normal teenagers way of thinking or acting for that matter.
> : For me it is a real put-down to the brilliant MSCL to be compared to
> : this new show!! This isn't 'truth'!!
>
I don't really think Dawson's Creek is trying to be very realistic. I
think the kids are supposed to have an adult vocabulary so they can
better articulate their feelings a bout their "typical teen situations".
I see it as very much like the comic strip Peanuts, where children having
adult vocabularies allows for insightful comments on childhood . . .
(the above comment is why I crossposted to alt.comics.peanuts)
ShadZ
^Q^
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Starving Philosophy Major
Montgomery wrote:
> : I see similarities galore between Dawson's Creek and 90210 and Dynasty
> : or <insert any soap here>, but none whatsoever with MSLC. I can't
> : add much to the criticisms here except to say that the only thing cool
> : so far about Dawson's Creek has been the music... and even that's
> : not very cool, especially after so many repetitions.
>
> I know I've knocked the show, but tonight's episode(2-3) of Dawson's Creek
> was an improvement. Not a vast one(I still groaned), but better. --
Tonight's ep of DC, was my first ep of it, and I have to say, that this show
looks
way more like 90210, than MSCL. What's with the student/teacher relationship??
(And why is that guy in a wheelchair sometimes and not in it others??)
Nevermind.. I don't want to know the answers....
What Dawson Creek lacks that MSCL had, was powerful, and real emotions.
Claire, A.J., Both Devons, Wilson, Jared, et al., SHOWED what they were
feelings, and didn't rely on the dialogue to express it to us. If there was a
show that
could be done completly silently, it would MSCL. The dialogue just added the
extra bites, and stabs at the heart... =) (Perfect example, self-esteem's
ending.
There was so little dialogue, but from the point when Rickie signs up for the
Drama
Club, to when Angela and Jodan walk off hand in hand, is almost entirely silent,
yet almost universally accepted as one of MSCL's (and T.V. Guides All Time) best
moments)
--
"Less taxes, reduced, not as much, less diminished, lower than. I am
nothing if not redundant and I also repeat myself."
"Let me tell you something, I didn't become a lawyer because I like the
law, the law sucks. It's boring, but it can also be used as a weapon. You
want to bankrupt somebody? Cost him everything he's worked for?
Make his wife leave him, even make his kids cry..yeah, we can do that."
-Both from Richard Fish
Ally McBeal
Richard Evans
>especially since Kevin Williamson credits MSCL as one of his inspirations
Sort of a slap in the face to MSCL.
I see similarities galore between Dawson's Creek and 90210 and Dynasty
or <insert any soap here>, but none whatsoever with MSLC. I can't
add much to the criticisms here except to say that the only thing cool
so far about Dawson's Creek has been the music... and even that's
not very cool, especially after so many repetitions.
-- Richard
Montgomery
Richard Evans (nep...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: >especially since Kevin Williamson credits MSCL as one of his inspirations
I know I've knocked the show, but tonight's episode(2-3) of Dawson's Creek
was an improvement. Not a vast one(I still groaned), but better. --
(@)_____< J. Montgomery >_____(@)
()_jmo...@suffolk.lib.ny.us__()
() "Have you ever felt like ()
() your life is a waste?" ()
() "Only when I'm awake." ()
() --Daria ()
(@)___________________________(@)
bhe...@webtv.net
In article <34d9ce63...@news.mindspring.com>, nep...@mindspring.com
(Richard Evans) wrote:> > > >especially since Kevin Williamson credits MSCL
as one of his inspirations> > Sort of a slap in the face to MSCL.> > I see
similarities galore between Dawson's Creek and 90210 and Dynasty> or <insert
you would like to, then please explain these similarities that you find in
these two shows. Just remember that in 90210, Donna now is a "personal
shopper", and Brandon and Steve run a weekly newspaper with a staff of 3
people. Realistic, huh? However, if you were referring to "vintage" 90210
(the show's been on so long they have "vintage" episodes now!) I could
slightly agree.The ruling theme in the episodes of Dawson's Creek has been
SEX. Every normal teenager thinks about and obsesses about sex. How is that
unrealistic? Although I do agree they should expand subject matter a bit...>
I can't> add much to the criticisms here except to say that the only thing
cool> so far about Dawson's Creek has been the music... and even that's> not
one am not a fan of the music.But more on MSCL vs. DC... MSCL was a fine
show. It's a shame that a network like ABC had to carry it, or else it would
have lasted a hell of alot longer. I was never a fan of MSCL however because
I could not relate to the social groups portrayed by the main characters.
And the unintelligent language annoyed the hell out of me. The language was
indeed realistic for the majority of teenagers, but some of us can properly
speak the English language. That's why I find the intelligent dialogue in DC
so refreshing. It actually portrays intelligent teens who are
articulate.-Brandon Helwig
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Jesse Shrieve
> were almost always on the mark. Dawson's Creek, on the other hand, takes
> place in some Twilight Zone universe where the kids are adults and vice
> versa. Watching the second episode, as 15-year-old Joey lectured Dawson's
Unfortunately, this seems to be how all shows with teens are done (except
MSCL). 90210 and all the other shows always cast much older people as
teens and then have them do things much earlier than the average teen
does...
> next. These kids speak to parents and teachers with an eloquent
> self-confidence and determination unmatched by anything in real life; in
I disagree -- quite a few people of that age differ from the majority of
teens and have no problem speaking to adults (in fact, I find it easier
to speak to adults than peers :/ I think, probably, because adults are
more willing to judge you for you, your mind, your personality, whereas
peers make quicker, snap judgements on superficial things).
However, as mentioned before, the majority of teens do have problems
speaking to adults and it comes off as quite unrealistic to have all four
of the stars be, as you say, so eloquent.
My $2.
--
Jesse Shrieve
j...@nospam.com -- replace nospam.com with lumiere.net
Jesse Shrieve
> Tonight's ep of DC, was my first ep of it, and I have to say, that this show
> looks way more like 90210, than MSCL.
I'm sure it is...
> What Dawson Creek lacks that MSCL had, was powerful, and real emotions.
I disagree. Few shows have the ability to invoke such vivid emotions in
myself and most of my friends. However, if I were coming at the show from
a jaded point of view, or at least looking for something in particular
rather than looking to see what it is, I could certainly understand not
becoming involved.
Personally, I don't watch MSCL because the few episodes I saw seemed to
portray a disgustingly depressive and cynical view of the world. Sure,
life sucks sometimes, I certainly realize that, but I don't need a TV
show to make me feel worse.
Jesse Shrieve
> I was never a fan of MSCL however because
> I could not relate to the social groups portrayed by the main characters.
> And the unintelligent language annoyed the hell out of me. The language was
> indeed realistic for the majority of teenagers, but some of us can properly
> speak the English language. That's why I find the intelligent dialogue in DC
> so refreshing. It actually portrays intelligent teens who are
> articulate.
I agree. I enjoy this aspect (articulate teens) of the show very much.
It's a bit unlikely that all four are so articulate, but still very
enjoyable.
I had the same problems with MSCL, along with the depression obsession.
ERIC GALVIN
I personally think that Dawsons Creek is similar to My So Called Life!
In the fact that it deals with real life issues and is aimed to the same
group of people
Becky
Just my opinion
Sil...@webtv.net
bhe...@webtv.net
In article <34D81108...@pacbell.net>,
Starving Philosophy Major <goo...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> Montgomery wrote:
>
> > : I see similarities galore between Dawson's Creek and 90210 and Dynasty
> > : or <insert any soap here>, but none whatsoever with MSLC. I can't
> > : add much to the criticisms here except to say that the only thing cool
> > : so far about Dawson's Creek has been the music... and even that's
> > : not very cool, especially after so many repetitions.
> >
> > was an improvement. Not a vast one(I still groaned), but better. --
>
> looks
> (And why is that guy in a wheelchair sometimes and not in it others??)
> Nevermind.. I don't want to know the answers....
Well here are the answers anyway. The wheelchair was a prop for the movie
they were filming at school and Pacey was probably bringing it back to
wherever he found it. He is not handicapped. And you can't really
understand the student/teacher relationship unless you've seen every episode.
> What Dawson Creek lacks that MSCL had, was powerful, and real emotions.
> Claire, A.J., Both Devons, Wilson, Jared, et al., SHOWED what they were
> feelings, and didn't rely on the dialogue to express it to us. If there was a
> show that
> could be done completly silently, it would MSCL. The dialogue just added the
> extra bites, and stabs at the heart... =) (Perfect example, self-esteem's
> ending.
> There was so little dialogue, but from the point when Rickie signs up for the
> Drama
> Club, to when Angela and Jodan walk off hand in hand, is almost entirely silent,
>
> yet almost universally accepted as one of MSCL's (and T.V. Guides All Time) best
>
> moments)
> --
>
[Ally McBeal sig snipped]
I totally respect your extreme love for MSCL. But these are two totally
different shows. I did not like MSCL because of the stupidity of it. Yeah,
it was realistic, but the storylines and dialogue lacked any intelligence
whatsoever and that was something I could not stand. Just a personal
preference on my part... Which is why I find the DC dialogue refreshing. But
if you've only seen one episode of DC, then how can you pass judgement so
fast how MSCL is so extremely better than DC?
bhe...@webtv.net
Ian J. Ball
In article <MPG.f41d63dd...@news.aimnet.com>, j...@nospam.com
(Jesse Shrieve) wrote:
> > were almost always on the mark. Dawson's Creek, on the other hand, takes
> > place in some Twilight Zone universe where the kids are adults and vice
> > versa. Watching the second episode, as 15-year-old Joey lectured Dawson's
>
> Unfortunately, this seems to be how all shows with teens are done (except
> MSCL).
Huh?! The adults in MSCL were the most obnoxius of the lot! At least
"90210" can boast that *some* of the parents didn't come off like ogres or
Neanderthals!
--
Ian J. Ball | "Tell 'Helpful Boy' what you need! Helpful Boy's
Grad Student, UCLA | motto is: 'Help me, to help *you*!'"-Tucker, FF
IJB...@aol.com | Want my ep. guides or FAQs via the Web or FTP?
i...@ucla.edu | http://members.aol.com/IJBall/WWW/TV.html
Jesse Shrieve
In article <IJBall-0402...@mac-rbk-1.chem.ucla.edu>,
IJB...@aol.com says...
> In article <MPG.f41d63dd...@news.aimnet.com>, j...@nospam.com
> (Jesse Shrieve) wrote:
>
> > > were almost always on the mark. Dawson's Creek, on the other hand, takes
> > > place in some Twilight Zone universe where the kids are adults and vice
> > > versa. Watching the second episode, as 15-year-old Joey lectured Dawson's
> >
> > Unfortunately, this seems to be how all shows with teens are done (except
> > MSCL).
>
> Huh?! The adults in MSCL were the most obnoxius of the lot! At least
> "90210" can boast that *some* of the parents didn't come off like ogres or
> Neanderthals!
Sorry, I was more speaking of the kids, not the adults. :P
Starving Philosophy Major
bhe...@webtv.net wrote:
> I totally respect your extreme love for MSCL. But these are two totally
> different shows. I did not like MSCL because of the stupidity of it. Yeah,
> it was realistic, but the storylines and dialogue lacked any intelligence
> whatsoever and that was something I could not stand. Just a personal
> preference on my part... Which is why I find the DC dialogue refreshing. But
> if you've only seen one episode of DC, then how can you pass judgement so
> fast how MSCL is so extremely better than DC?
I guess you have a point. I shouldn't condemn DC because of one episode....
But when the plot lines are really predictable (that whole thing with Joey and
the guy on the boat w/ the violin was really trite) and the characters somewhat
flat (I know I really need to give it some more time to have character development...)
but the episode was so bad that I really couldn't live with myself if I sat through
another... Granted, if I had seen "Weekend" as my first MSCL episode, I'd probably
think the same thing... Oh well.
Montgomery
Ian J. Ball (IJB...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <MPG.f41d63dd...@news.aimnet.com>, j...@nospam.com
: (Jesse Shrieve) wrote:
: > > were almost always on the mark. Dawson's Creek, on the other hand, takes
: > > place in some Twilight Zone universe where the kids are adults and vice
: > > versa. Watching the second episode, as 15-year-old Joey lectured Dawson's
: >
: > Unfortunately, this seems to be how all shows with teens are done (except
: > MSCL).
: Huh?! The adults in MSCL were the most obnoxius of the lot! At least
: "90210" can boast that *some* of the parents didn't come off like ogres or
: Neanderthals!
The adults in MSCL weren't obnoxious, they were human! I'll take Patty
over Kelly's drunk mom any day!
bru...@hotmail.com
I'm really enjoying the show. I really hope that WB picks it up for more
episodes. From what I've heard, the show is doing quite well in the
ratings, and has generated a positive buzz for WB. So I do think that
they will renew it.
I like the fact that the characters are all so complex and different. I
also think that Dawson and Joey are the two standouts in the cast. Katie
Holmes is very beautiful don't you think?
I also like watching a show that takes risks and can be controversial at
times. It makes for interesting tv viewing.
Chris Harrop
bru...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I also like watching a show that takes risks and can be controversial >at times. It makes for interesting tv viewing.
-Ghostface