Angelique's Change of Heart
Kelly
who would get Barnabas's affection to lifting his curse and asking nothing
in return?
1. Love, love is the answer
2. She's finally seen the light (so she let Barnabas see it too)
3. She's tried everything else to win Barnabas's love and figured she had
nothing left to lose
4. Barnabas asked for her help really really nicely
5. She wanted to see the look on Gerard's face when he finds Barnabas in
broad daylight (that was so much fun)
6. The writers wanted to surprise us
Eric Newman
I think 1970 Angelique used the I Ching to send her mind back to 1840
to occupy the body that was there then. In the first place, it seems
reasonable to assume that the "other" Angelique -- the one who was
Cassandra, then the vampire, then 1897 Angelique DuVal (or DuBois,
depending on the episode), then Angelique Rumson -- couldn't remove
the curse, either because she didn't have the knowledge or she didn't
have the power. If she had been able to remove it, she would have done
so in 1897 instead of wasting time on science experiments with Julia.
She also would have removed it when Barnabas became a vampire again in
the Leviathan storyline, when she expressed something akin to
sympathy. In the second place, during her conversation today she said
"for the first time in my life there is no price" and "nothing I've
ever done has won me your love." The Angelique whose experiences were
limited to 1796 and 1840 wouldn't have said those things, but the
other one, the one who'd had all those encounters and alliances and
arguments with Barnabas in the future, would. In the third place, it
seems a plausible way to explain what is, indeed, an implausible
change of heart.
Or maybe Julia finally told her that she gets to be a vampire in the
future, too.
Jim Heckman
On 17-Nov-2003, Eric Newman <ed...@carroll.com> wrote
in message <85fjrvkvqh7ajtkek...@4ax.com>:
[...]
> Or maybe Julia finally told her that she gets to be a vampire in the
> future, too.
Actually, I like that theory. If Julia, or even Barnabas
himself, told 1840 Angelique everything about what would happen
in 1968-70 and 1897, she may have realized there just wasn't any
future in the way she'd been dealing with Barnabas, and would
apparently continue to deal with him, and decided to chuck it
all rather than go through all that.. :-/
--
Jim Heckman
pansyfaye
"Kelly" <kelly...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:pkiub.69895$E9.4...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
pansy
Xfligirl
>who would get Barnabas's affection to lifting his curse and asking nothing
>in return?
>
>1. Love, love is the answer
>2. She's finally seen the light (so she let Barnabas see it too)
Seems temporary--but it's always a women's purgative to change her mind, eh?
LOL
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>3. She's tried everything else to win Barnabas's love and figured she had
>nothing left to lose
I don't know---me thinks the writers were playing with us???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>4. Barnabas asked for her help really really nicely
I liked that she helped him and for once wasn't a b!t8H--nice to see that other
side of her..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>5. She wanted to see the look on Gerard's face when he finds Barnabas in
>broad daylight (that was so much fun)
Yep, I agree. That was great--I was totally surprised too.
>6. The writers wanted to surprise us
Seemed like that episode was written by someone different who hadn't been
writing lately.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BTW--good post. Regards-X
Johnny1A
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 05:43:49 GMT, "Kelly" <kelly...@usa.net> wrote:
>
> >Wow, that was a dramatic change. How did Angelique go from killing anyone
> >who would get Barnabas's affection to lifting his curse and asking nothing
> >in return?
> >
> >1. Love, love is the answer
> >2. She's finally seen the light (so she let Barnabas see it too)
> >3. She's tried everything else to win Barnabas's love and figured she had
> >nothing left to lose
> >4. Barnabas asked for her help really really nicely
> >5. She wanted to see the look on Gerard's face when he finds Barnabas in
> >broad daylight (that was so much fun)
> >6. The writers wanted to surprise us
>
> I think 1970 Angelique used the I Ching to send her mind back to 1840
> to occupy the body that was there then. In the first place, it seems
> reasonable to assume that the "other" Angelique -- the one who was
> Cassandra, then the vampire, then 1897 Angelique DuVal (or DuBois,
> depending on the episode), then Angelique Rumson -- couldn't remove
> the curse, either because she didn't have the knowledge or she didn't
> have the power. If she had been able to remove it, she would have done
> so in 1897 instead of wasting time on science experiments with Julia.
> She also would have removed it when Barnabas became a vampire again in
> the Leviathan storyline, when she expressed something akin to
> sympathy.
This is actually one of the big _problems_ with your theory.
Angie-1840 ought objectively to be far _less_ powerful than Angie R.
If Angie R. can't do it, Angie-1840 shouldn't be able to, either, even
with Angie R's soul.
Further, if Angie R. jumped back into Angie-1840, _she has no
motivation to keep this a secret_! Barn and Julia get along fairly
well with Angie R., and Barn has even expressed something looking
suspiciously like affection for her. She has every reason to reveal
herself as Angie R., and none to pretend to be Angie-1840 still.
Of course, the entire 'Miranda DuVal' business contradicts the
laughably 'known' history of DS anyway. There really isn't any way to
reconcile 1840 with the rest of DS, even by the admittedly loose
standards of DS continuity.
My own pet theory: ALL of the 1840 sequence is a weird dream
Barn-1970s is having, probably after eating too much of something
Angie R. cooked. I have no evidence, but something tells me that
Angie's cooking would be dangerous, even without her magic! :)
Shermanlee
Jim Heckman
On 18-Nov-2003, xfli...@aol.com (Xfligirl) wrote
in message <20031118215211...@mb-m15.aol.com>:
[...]
> Seems temporary--but it's always a women's purgative to change her mind,
> eh?
Now *there's* an effect of changing your mind I hadn't given
much thought to before. ;-)
[...]
--
Jim Heckman
Graeme
>>Seems temporary--but it's always a women's purgative to change her mind, eh?
LOL
>"
Oh, it's a woman's "purgative" all right. When she did it, I thought Julia was
going to throw up.
Kelly
news:b3030854.03111...@posting.google.com...
> > to occupy the body that was there then. In the first place, it seems
> > reasonable to assume that the "other" Angelique -- the one who was
> > Cassandra, then the vampire, then 1897 Angelique DuVal (or DuBois,
> > depending on the episode), then Angelique Rumson -- couldn't remove
> > the curse, either because she didn't have the knowledge or she didn't
> > have the power. If she had been able to remove it, she would have done
> > so in 1897 instead of wasting time on science experiments with Julia.
> > She also would have removed it when Barnabas became a vampire again in
> > the Leviathan storyline, when she expressed something akin to
> > sympathy.
>
> This is actually one of the big _problems_ with your theory.
> Angie-1840 ought objectively to be far _less_ powerful than Angie R.
> If Angie R. can't do it, Angie-1840 shouldn't be able to, either, even
> with Angie R's soul.
Eric's theory would work if we can also assume that Angelique learned how to
end the curse in the present time before she I Chinged back to 1840 to help
Barnabas.
> Further, if Angie R. jumped back into Angie-1840, _she has no
> motivation to keep this a secret_! Barn and Julia get along fairly
> well with Angie R., and Barn has even expressed something looking
> suspiciously like affection for her. She has every reason to reveal
> herself as Angie R., and none to pretend to be Angie-1840 still.
>
> Of course, the entire 'Miranda DuVal' business contradicts the
> laughably 'known' history of DS anyway.
What's the contradiction with the Miranda DuVal story?
Is it like this: Miranda is a normal person working as a chambermaid in
1692, meets up with Judah Zachery and becomes a witch in his coven,
testifies against Judah in exchange for passage out of the counrty, ends up
in Martinique in 1795, meets Josette, has a fling with Barnabas, follows
Barnabas back to Collinwood and breaks up his engagement, marries him then
turns him into a vampire...
Josette's Ghost
> What's the contradiction with the Miranda DuVal story?
> Is it like this: Miranda is a normal person working as a chambermaid in
> in Martinique in 1795, meets Josette,
Josette and Angelique supposedly grew up together. So, there's the problem.
Eric Newman
Tante Natalie did say she knew Angelique's mother and that Angelique
was an "uninteresting" child. Maybe Angelique planted these memories.
FredHerrring
And now I'm wondering, will Angelique have to atone for her evil past by
serving time in perogative-tory?
Graeme
>was an "uninteresting" child. Maybe Angelique planted these memories.
>>
Why bother?
Xfligirl
>>eh?
>>LOL
>>
>
>>Oh, it's a woman's "purgative" all right. When she did it, I thought Julia
>>was
>>going to throw up.
Yep, most priceless scene a while! Wonder if she'll be the one to rescue
Barnabus???
Eric Newman
Something to do?
Johnny1A
If so, she also must have planted memories of growing up together in
Josette's head, memories of an Angie-child in Josette's father's mind,
etc. A lot of work to keep it all consistent. On top of that, why a
servant? With her powers and a century of experience, surely she
could come up with a more comfortable existence than that!
Further, Angie _acted_, in 1795, like a very young woman, barely an
adult really, with dangerous powers she could only half-control. She
just didn't _act_ like a woman with a century of life-experience. The
performance of Lara Parker in the 1795 sequence, as the very young and
(in her own way) naive Angelique Bouchard was one of the best
performances of the series.
Shermanlee
Graeme
Further, Angie _acted_, in 1795, like a very young woman, barely an adult
really, with dangerous powers she could only half-control. She just didn't
_act_ like a woman with a century of life-experience. The performance of Lara
Parker in the 1795 sequence, as the very young and (in her own way) naive
Angelique Bouchard was one of the best performances of the series.
Shermanlee
>>
Yeah, that's the way I saw it too. She was still young and inexperienced in
1795. And Lara's novel ignores the whole Miranda Duval stuff entirely, which
was a good idea.
aquila...@erols.com
The only explanation that would work into this story "burp", then:
Miranda DuVall was in her early 20's at the time of the 1692 Zachery
trial, thus was born around 1670 or so. "Scared straight" by her
experiences at the Zachery trial, she went forth from C'port, maybe to
France and / or to the Carribbean. Perhaps she re-invented herself as
a "wise woman" or "white witch" rather than a sorceress, lived a
longer-than-average lifespan, and died around the time Angelique was
conceived in the early 1770's. It's just possible; there HAVE been
centenarians scattered throughout history, and maybe Miranda picked up
enough knowledge about powerful herbs and so forth to keep herself
alive that long.
If Miranda went to the Carribbean, she might have met Angelique's
mother at some point, perhaps was the one who tutored her in the use
of herbs, etc. Knowing that she was soon to die, and that her spirit
likely still bore a taint, both from her early association with Judah
Zachery, and any later minor forays of tapping into the supernatural,
Miranda knew the only way to escape eternal justice was to be re-born.
Hopefully, then, she would lead a more virtuous life, with her
accumulated powers and skills used for "good." (Of course, that was
not to be !!)
And, who better to bear and raise her future self, than her favorite
protegee? Perhaps Miranda "arranged" the circumstances that brought
Angelique's parents together. It could be that she had a handsome
grandson or great-grandson whom she introduced to Angelique's mother,
so some of her looks would be carried on as well. (Though if you
prefer a younger, slimmer, more attractive Andre DuPres as Angie's
father, it might still have worked out. It has long been established
that this isn't genetics class anyway, what with brown-eyed Henesy
characters growing up to be blue-eyed Edmonds characters.)
As Miranda died, her spirit entered the newly-created future bane of
the DuPres and Collins families. Angelique, then, would have grown up
alongside Andre's legitimate daughter, and, perhaps, WAS plain as a
child (many women who grow up to be considered "beautiful" often start
out looking MOST unpromising as young girls, and vice-versa.)
This reconciles these storylines, including the fact that Angelique
had to "start over" as a maidservant. She was born to a poor woman
(however gifted at herbal cures) who was herself a servant, and was
merely a mortal girl with an unusual "hobby" at that point. Living in
Martinique, it would seem likely that she was attracted by voodoo
rites, thus interfering with any hope of Miranda's "redemption."
Angelique didn't STAY a maidservant, once she was married to
Barnabas, nor in all her subsequent appearances. Unlike Miranda, she
was spared from a "normal" life, when Satan or Daiblos or whatever
malevolent entity revived her after Barnabas murdered her in 1795/6,
and thus, went on, frozen in her early 20's, until 1970. Invested
with all that power and influence, she didn't HAVE to work for anyone
anymore (unless you count posing for Sky Rumson's magazine as hard
labor.) It seems likely that, during her sojourns in Hades in the
years between 1796 and 1840, Angelique did learn of, and remembered,
her former life as former warlock's helper Miranda DuVall.
As for her travels and different changes of heart, it seems as though
Angelique was Diablos' favorite boomerang. She must have benefitted
from a liberal revolving-door policy in the Netherworld--- she had
more than three strikes, but was never really out of the game. She
was sent back from 1968, to the 1795 period, only to be burned instead
of strangled---however, being already the Devil's Best Girl, this
doesn't keep her down for long.
But the 1840 Angelique doesn't know she's been to the future---
Barnabas and Julia seem to have caught her on her first go-'round
through the centuries. It seems they've interrupted the timeline that
not only has Edith surviving to age 90 in 1897, but has a
still-unpleasant Angelique residing in Hotel Hell until summoned forth
by Quentin and Evan later that year (which, of course, they probably
wouldn't have done in the first place, if Barnabas hadn't shown up---
but, then, again...)
It seems the theory of Barn's and Julia's time travels actually taking
them into alternate time lines would fit in here (though if that's
what they've been doing all along, why were they so surprised by PT
1970, except that Julia had to kill her alternate self--- not only to
save Barnabas, but, inadvertantly, to create a space so she could
exist in that timeband?) Otherwise, there's no logical pattern to
account for the reformed "Valerie" of 1840, semi-bad Angelique in
1897, black-wigged evil stepmom Cassandra in 1968, relatively helpful
Mrs. Rumson in 1970.... The boomerang zig-zagged. (if this was a
football game, the players on the same team would be tackling other,
instead of the opposing team.)
Now nursing a migraine from all this,
Lorraine
Tim
>Now nursing a migraine from all this,
>
>Lorraine
Does it feel like Jenny knocked you over the head with a big book, or is it
more of a Judah type headache?
Tim
~~~
"Ding, ding goes the bat."
-- Chuck Berry, 1957 Parallel Time
Lorraine
James Storm with the prop candle holder and not supposed to really hurt
him, but giving him a concussion instead, kind of headache.
L.
Johnny1A
Yeah, the only way to _remotely_ integrate the two general storylines
is to assume that Angie was Miranda's reincarnation, somehow. But
that opens up other problems that are just as hard to resolve.
>
> But the 1840 Angelique doesn't know she's been to the future---
> Barnabas and Julia seem to have caught her on her first go-'round
> through the centuries. It seems they've interrupted the timeline that
> not only has Edith surviving to age 90 in 1897, but has a
> still-unpleasant Angelique residing in Hotel Hell until summoned forth
> by Quentin and Evan later that year (which, of course, they probably
> wouldn't have done in the first place, if Barnabas hadn't shown up---
> but, then, again...)
I don't think Barn's presence made as big a difference as it looked
like. Hanley and Q were _already_ into the occult before Barn showed
up, we know that, even Laura mentioned that Q was heavily into magic
and the like when they ran off to Egypt together. True, the actual
ceremony that unleashed Angie on them was to 'deal with Barnabas
Collins', but absent Barn, they'd almost certainly have ended up
resorting to magic for other reasons (manipulate someone, get
themselves out of some other jam, ward off a jealous husband with a
rifle, whatever).
What Barn probably _did_ alter was the outcome. Calling on the
Darkness for someone to specifically 'oppose Barnabas' is practically
dialing Angie's number. She's the specialist in causing problems for
Barnabas. If they had used the ritual for other reasons, I think it's
likely they'd have gotten some other result. Certainly, I don't think
Angie was what Evan Hanley expected, he seemed to have some other
specific result he thought would occur.
>
> Lorraine
Shermanlee
Ruski 276
In 1796, didn't Angelique tell Barnabas she wasn't a witch when she first
met him?
Eric Newman
No, I don't think so. I don't believe the subject ever came up.
Marcovaldo
that would work ..."?
Actually, that was a pretty good scenario.
I thought it was quite odd that Angie, unchanged from 1692 to 1840, was
shocked, SHOCKED, when Julia told her she would still be around in 1970.