Mitchell Ryan's Depature From Dark Shadows
SirPJ
got to the episode where Anthony George (*shudder*) takes over the
role of Burke Devlin.
This made me have to wonder why Ryan got canned. Okay, I know he had
a drinking problem, that is pretty much common knowledge. He missed a
taping of an episode, and may have had a breakdown in Dan Curtis'
office, though this is unsubstantiated.
However, watching all of Ryan's episodes, his work never seemed to
suffer. Or, did Ryan miss a few more tapings than is reported in the
Almanac? Or was his problem a lot worse than it seemed on the
surface? Did he piss off Curtis or someone?
I'm just curious, because it just seems like he got fired rather
quickly. At least comparing it to the present day and Robert Downey
Jr, whose personal abuse can be seen in his work (specifically "Home
for the Holidays"), but still gets a billion in one chances.
--Dave
Inpri
kind) had a part in it, but I also remember reading somewhere that he also
wanted to move on and do something else, so I would theorize that it was a
departure agreed by both sides.
Anthony George certainly did not have the "oomph" as Ryan did in playing Burke,
but I did like him very much as Jeremiah. IMHO, I liked his "softer" approach
as Jeremiah, making his bitter break with Barnabas all the more powerful, as
well as his tragic death. With Ryan, it would probably have been a more
"gruff" portrayal and not have the same impact.
Gerard
Eric Newman
accent?
Graeme
Burke, but I did like him very much as Jeremiah. IMHO, I liked his "softer"
approach as Jeremiah, making his bitter break with Barnabas all the more
powerful, as well as his tragic death. With Ryan, it would probably have been
a more "gruff" portrayal and not have the same impact.
>>
Of course Jeremiah was originally *supposed* to be a hard nose. Remember, in
the original story, he's the one who buried Josette in a pauper's grave to get
even with her for jumping.
I do agree though that in the new version of history, it's more effective to
have Jeremiah be more laid back and kind, and in that sense, George does play
the Jeremiah role better than Ryan would have. But he's still no Burke.
SirPJ
>too many times (as far as Curtis was concerned) and so he got the
>boot.
I'm just still surprised that his work never showed any faltering from
his bad habit. I wonder something though. Whenever a new actor took
over a role, it was announced before the episode once. Anthony George
was announced three times. Now is that because Ryan had the role
longer compared to other replacements, or was there a chance that Ryan
might have been given a chance to come back in say a week or so, but
then Ryan decided against returning. Or is this totally going down
the wrong path of thinking.
--Dave
Graeme
once. Anthony George was announced three times. Now is that because Ryan had
the role longer compared to other replacements, or was there a chance that Ryan
might have been given a chance to come back in say a week or so, but then Ryan
decided against returning.
>>
I wondered about that too. It sure made it look like they didn't know for sure
whether or not Mitch was coming back. Alexandra her her role even longer
than Mitch had his, but they still only announced Betsy Durkin once.
Tony Ning Lew
Michael J. Solomon <mike...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>Okay, I have been watching the series from the beginning, and I just
>>got to the episode where Anthony George (*shudder*) takes over the
>>role of Burke Devlin.
>
>Heh. :) I remember someone once saying in this newsgroup that the
>scariest thing that ever happened on DS was when during the opening
>credits, an announcer said 'Today the part of Burke Devlin will be
>played by Anthony George.'
No, that we me, and it was actually, "The scariest words ever uttered
on DS are, 'Today the part of Victoria Winters will be played by
Miss Betsy Durkin'". :-)
Joeytrom
played by Betsy Durkin.
Twice by Humbert Allen Astredo and once by Grayson Hall.
Graeme
be played by Betsy Durkin.
Twice by Humbert Allen Astredo and once by Grayson Hall.
>>
Oops. My bad, but anything to do with Betsy Durkin I can reasonably claim to
have blocked out.
Lamia Nocturna
>>I'm just curious, because it just seems like he got fired rather
>>quickly. At least comparing it to the present day and Robert Downey
>>Jr, whose personal abuse can be seen in his work (specifically "Home
>>for the Holidays"), but still gets a billion in one chances.
><shrug> That's modern day Hollywood for you. Substance and alcohol
>abuse puts you _in_ the spotlight these days, not out of it like it
>did with Mr. Ryan so many years ago.
The scandal that hurt Joan Bennett's career way back when? Imagine how much it
would help the career of an actress these days.
~*~*~*~ Alexandra ~*~*~*~
At your service. Your funeral service, that is.
[Killjoy]
The Darker Sanctuary (http://www.DarkerSanctuary.com) :
Dark art, Photography, PsychoFiction, Satiric writing, Poetry, etc.
Joe
This person spelled it "Dee-pay-chur" :)
Joe
I, like others, could not find info on IMDB about Miss Durkin.
I did find this on a yahoo search of her name though.
Don't know if it's actually her in the musical, but what I found funny was the
first song on the songlist: "No Garlic Tonight"
http://www.musicalheaven.com/a/athenian_touch.shtml
Opened January 14, 1964 at the Jan Hus Playhouse, (New York) and ran for 1
performance!
If it is the same Miss Durkin, one can only wonder if she stayed in the biz for
muxh longer after this and DS !
Joe
SirPJ
Jesus, excuse my typo. Miss one letter and everyone has a sh*t fit.
--Dave
Graeme
>>
She's there:
Joe
Do you really think Jesus would help ?
Joe
though.
It didn't have the other link I listed.
Joe
Anyhoo, I wonder what became of her ?
SirPJ
>It was a joke. Hence the emote. Take it easy.
>Do you really think Jesus would help ?
I'm sorry, I just jumped the gun. It was a reflex action. I've been
to too many newsgroups and boards where people get way too anal about
spelling and grammar and start attacking that person.
I apologize again.
--Dave
Joe
I don't know why it's driving me crazy, but I still can't find any info
on what happened to Miss Durkin after that one play and DS !
Guess I should start another thread ?
Jimmy
Joeytrom wrote in message <20010306181407...@ng-mp1.aol.com>...
Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but I seem to recall Louis Edmonds doing
one of those voice-overs too, because of the English-sounding way he
pronounced "Durkin" (more like Duuuh-kin").
Poor thing; the way we pick on her, she probably changed her name to Madge
and moved to Idaho to escape us.
Jimmy
Joeytrom
Carolyn.
Graeme
Carolyn.
>>
Scary if you didn't know in advance that it was temporary. I did by the time I
saw it, so I thought it was kind of cool that somebody else played Carolyn for
one day.
Ray Salisbury
PLAYED CAROLYN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eric Newman
Chill.
Graeme
CAROLYN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
That's because you care for nothing but appearance, and watch the show just to
get off.
I'm more interested in the literary aspect and showmanship aspects. I thought
it was very neat. I also thought it was even neater when they ended one
episode with a scene of Vince O'Brian as Sheriff Patterson, and the next day
recapped that very same scene, but with Dana Elcar in the role, saying the same
things that Vince had said the day before.
Heck, imagine if they'd done the Diana Walker thing with other characters, for
fun. Imagine if, for one day, they'd brought Bert Convy in to play Barnabas,
so we could get a look at what it would have been like if he had gotten the
part?
Convy wouldn't have been as good as Frid, but for one day I'd be willing to put
up with a lot.
Ken London
"Dark Shadows has been cancelled"
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Graeme
>
>"Dark Shadows has been cancelled"
>
I don't know when I found out about it, so I don't remember hearing those
words.
I have a LOT of specific memories from the Adam and 1897 stories in first run,
but almost no memories after that point. The only thing I can *specifically*
remember after the death of Wanda Paisley is the Head in the case. I think
that the affiliate in Houston must have taken it off the air some time before
it was actually cancelled, but I have no idea if that's true, or how to find
out either way.
Ray Salisbury
but with Anthony George as a much more thoughtful Burke Devlin and
thanks to Barn the series became a bigger hit than ever so this subject
is not worth thinking anymore about at all!
Graeme
>>
The show also continued nicely after Diana Walker played Carolyn for a day, so
from what you're saying now, you were mistaken when you decried this earlier.
>>but with Anthony George as a much more thoughtful Burke Devlin
>>
In other words, not the same as the original. You admit that.
>>and thanks to Barn the series became a bigger hit than ever so this subject
is not worth thinking anymore about at all!
>>
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll think about what I want to think about, thank
you, but frankly wasting time arguing points you admit you don't care about is
a bit foolish of you.
However, I'm being too negative here. You did after all go an entire post
without slobbering over any of the female leads, and for that I must thank you.
Ray Salisbury
subject of Ryan's departure from DS was not worth thinking much about I
did not even attempt to tell anyone that they could not think about it
as much as they want. I don't understand a lot of the other stuff in
your reply to me but about what I previously said about Babe Barrett
being replaced all I can now say is this :I could not stand the sight of
anyone ever playing Carolyn Stoddard other than Babe Barrett! Nobody in
the whole wide world!!!!!!
PS Why do I think it is silly to think much about Ryan's deparure from
DS some of you may be asking?Well because he did the lion's share of his
work prior to Barn showing up (and the show becoming a mega tv classic)
and ,though he (Ryan) was the male central character of the show in the
beginning of it's run ,these beginning episodes are rather rarely seen
in syndication packages and a good number of dedicated fans of DS
obviously never saw the early eps of the show (myself not included) with
Ryan the male central character. To me worrying alot about why,say,
Conrad Fowkes left DS is 5% sensible and 95% foolish. Well I strongly
feel you folks worrying alot about Ryan departing DS is about 10% (with
aslim outside chance of 15%) sensible and 90% silly. Besides Burke was a
rather ordinary character who spent much of his time handling business
deals and largely faking romance just for revenge for his years in
prison, nothing supernatural about that. He didn't even even turn out to
be related to anyone supernatural (as Joe did Chris Jennings).So Ryan's
part on DS ,again despite his one time leading man status on the show,
isn't in most ways worth noting so much! To give the best analogy I can
think of remember Steven Hill played the leader of the IMF team on
Mission Impossible during it's first season. But he was pretty much
replaced by Peter Graves for the second season on when the showprobably
became a bigger hit and Graves is almost exclusively now remembered as
being the show's central character and team leader.
Graeme
thinking much
>>
I think that the show took a big hit from his loss. That they gained other
things about that time that helped compensate for the loss is true, but a
separate question.
>>I don't understand a lot of the other stuff in your reply to me but about
what I previously said about Babe Barrett being replaced
>>
What I meant by that was, that your criteria in this case (i.e. the show wasn't
damaged, so it was no big deal) would also hold true in the case of Diana
Walker playing Carolyn for a day (it didn't hurt the show, so it doesn't
matter).
>>all I can now say is this :I could not stand the sight of anyone ever playing
Carolyn Stoddard other than Babe Barrett! Nobody in the whole wide world!!!!!!
>>
I take it then that you hated the 1991 Series?
>PS Why do I think it is silly to think much about Ryan's deparure from DS some
of you may be asking?Well because he did the lion's share of his work prior to
Barn showing up (and the show becoming a mega tv classic)
>>
Not a convincing reason. The same could be said of Joan and Louis, but I would
be, if anything, even more annoyed if they had left the show.
>>To me worrying alot about why,say, Conrad [sic] Fowkes left DS is 5% sensible
and 95% foolish.
>>
Actually, I'd be interested in the circumstances under which ANYONE left the
show, including Mark Allen, George Mitchell and James Hall. In Conard's case
though, it's probably just that the Frank character was very bland and never
took off in the first place.
>>Well I strongly feel you folks worrying alot about Ryan departing DS is about
10% (with aslim outside chance of 15%) sensible and 90% silly.
>>
The fact that you're STILL arguing about it contradicts your earlier claim that
there was no point in doing so.
If you don't particularly care for the Burke character, then obviously you
won't be too broken up if he leaves the show. That's obvious, and can be
stated in one sentence, so I don't know why it took you a very long post to say
it.
Eric Newman
Salisbury) wrote:
>PS Why do I think it is silly to think much about Ryan's deparure from
>DS some of you may be asking?
Or not.
Tony Ning Lew
aaaaa...@webtv.net (Ray Salisbury) wrote:
>Graeme I was not talking to you specifically. Also I just said that the
>subject of Ryan's departure from DS was not worth thinking much about I
>did not even attempt to tell anyone that they could not think about it
>as much as they want. I don't understand a lot of the other stuff in
>your reply to me but about what I previously said about Babe Barrett
>being replaced all I can now say is this :I could not stand the sight of
>anyone ever playing Carolyn Stoddard other than Babe Barrett! Nobody in
>the whole wide world!!!!!!
>
>PS Why do I think it is silly to think much about Ryan's deparure from
>DS some of you may be asking?Well because he did the lion's share of his
>work prior to Barn showing up (and the show becoming a mega tv classic)
>and ,though he (Ryan) was the male central character of the show in the
>beginning of it's run ,these beginning episodes are rather rarely seen
>in syndication packages and a good number of dedicated fans of DS
>obviously never saw the early eps of the show (myself not included) with
>Ryan the male central character. To me worrying alot about why,say,
>Conrad Fowkes left DS is 5% sensible and 95% foolish. Well I strongly
>feel you folks worrying alot about Ryan departing DS is about 10% (with
>aslim outside chance of 15%) sensible and 90% silly.
And thinking anyone in this newsgroup gives a flying damn about whether
Star Wars and McDonalds stole from Puff n' stuff is 0% sensible
and 100% silly.
Graeme
10% (with aslim outside chance of 15%) sensible and 90% silly.
>>
>>And thinking anyone in this newsgroup gives a flying damn about whether Star
Wars and McDonalds stole from Puff n' stuff is 0% sensible and 100% silly.
>>
That's pretty darn hard to argue with.
Jedpeck
opinion. I do believe the character would not have been killed off had the
magnetic Ryan still been in the role. I believe he would have made a far more
credible Jeremiah (and would have been featured in more episodes in 1795 as a
person rather than a ghost) had Ryan still been in the role.
Still, this was a point in the show where the crossover to the supernatural was
being made...and Barnabas and Devlin had interesting scenes together--until the
advent of Anthony George...unfortunate casting...I still wonder what would have
happened had James Hall continued on as Willie and Marc Allen as Sam Evans.
And while we're on the Nancy Barrett subject, does anyone know WHY she was
absent that one day and Diana Walker took her place (just watched the old tape
this weekend; Walker was NO Nancy Barrett)...but typical of a soap type in the
60s.
WaylonS...@webtv.net
recall him sighing heavily before making the announcement, and sounding
as if he were less than pleased with the substitution.
WS
"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing:
no one to blame." -- Erica Jong
Graeme
been featured in more episodes in 1795 as a person rather than a ghost) had
Ryan still been in the role.
>>
Remember that in the original version of the story Jeremiah outlived Josette.
>>Still, this was a point in the show where the crossover to the supernatural
was being made...and Barnabas and Devlin had interesting scenes together--until
the advent of Anthony George...
>>
Actually I only remember one seen that Ryan and Frid had together. A meeting
in the Blue Whale where Burke was interested in Barnabas' cane. But definitely
their future rival would have had a lot more bite to it if Ryan had still been
around.
I wonder why George left when he did. Was it his decision, or theirs? He
wasn't great, but his departure certainly put a heavier load onto Frid until
Selby arrived.
>>I still wonder what would have happened had James Hall continued on as Willie
and Marc Allen as Sam Evans.
>>
James Hall could never have carried the part of the vampire slave Willie. I
like to think he was always intended to be temporary, but I don't really know
that.
>>And while we're on the Nancy Barrett subject, does anyone know WHY she was
absent that one day and Diana Walker took her place (just watched the old tape
this weekend; Walker was NO Nancy Barrett)...but typical of a soap type in
the 60s.
>>
I've never heard, but probably it was a sudden illness or something.
The Ghost of Sarah Collins
>absent that one day and Diana Walker took her place
I recall reading Nancy was in a slight auto accident before shooting and hurt
her wrist. She was only out one day, they worked it into the show the following
day.
the ghost of Sarah Collins(1784-1795)
loving sister to Barnabas...@}{~~~~~~
"That evil is wicked is well understood.
the wicked are punished so you must be good."
(Sarah to Barnabas.)
Ray Salisbury
1) You spelled Pufnstuf wrong. There is only two f's in the name and it
is written as one word or name.
2) The poster called Nyssa and Cugan previously asked about a seventies
show and wondered if it was made by the Kroffts so there has been some
previous conversation about Krofft shows on this posting independent of
me.
Thus it's possible that there would be some interest on this posting
board in movies and commercials inspired by Krofft shows.
3) I didn't say Star Wars was from Pufnstuf just the McDonaldland
commercials were. I said Star Wars featured similar elements found in
the Far Out Space Nuts show also by Sid and Marty Krofft.
PS I am not sure if Nyssa and Cugan are two posters combined.
Ray Salisbury
scenes together until the advent of Anthony George. I only remember two
scenes (tops) that Ryan and Frid were in together. One was when Burke
met Barn for the first time at the Blue Whale and Sam Evans was also
there.And they mosly talked about Willie. The other was when sexy Maggie
was in the cemetery and Barn and Willie were trying to kidnap her and
they hear(I think both) Burke and Vicki's voices calling out to Maggie
and the former duo are force to abandon their attempted abduction. ThIs
scene only debateably counts as being one of Ryan and Frid playing
opposite one another as I think Barn just heard Burke's voice and the
two do not have any face to face meeting. Was there any other scene of
Ryan and Frid together, if not am I to take it you believe that one or
both of these scenes is better than any of the Anthony George Burke
scenes with Barnabas including the costume party ep and the rivalry
scenes the man and vamp had over the attention of beautiful Vicki.
Graeme
her wrist. She was only out one day, they worked it into the show the following
day.
>>
Interesting. Do you know where they got Diana Walker? Did they drag her in
off the street, or was she already on standby as Nancy's understudy? (If it was
that, she had a pretty cushy job.)
Graeme
>Buke
>there.And [space missing]
>hear(I [space missing]
> force to abandon [should be "forced]
>ThIs [capital in mid-word]
>debateably
>ep [abbreviation without a period]
Not meaning to nit pick. I only mention it because I know that you personally
want to hear this kind of thing. It may be about time to use a spell checker.
JOSEPH INTEGLIA
problem. however at the last ds fest, he said he got a chance to do
something else and left but at last weeks paley festival at some point,
he said he wished that he didnt drink as much back then!
BTW: nancy barrett was ill the day she was replaced and i guess her part
was too big in that episode to work around it.
Joeytrom
was hired for only 6 months.
If Ryan had still been on DS...the original plan of Jeremiah outliving Josette
may have remained and Jeremiah would have been a survivor of 1795.
Would have loved to see his Burke going against Cassandra and Nicholas! And
what he would have encountered in the Dream Curse, as well as a possible victim
of vampire Angelique!
Alas, it never happened :(
Tony Ning Lew
joey...@aol.com (Joeytrom) wrote:
And the best thing of all is that they wouldn't have had to introduce
that irritating Peter Bradford as Vicky's love interest!
VAfromTX
>the Far Out Space Nuts show also by Sid and Marty Krofft.
So George Lucas is stuck for a story to do a movie and he turns on the tv one
fateful Saturday morning and there's... Bob Denver! "Eureka!" he cries. And
the rest is movie history.
Eugene "Chuck" Collins
Ray Salisbury
she's all right now.
Eric Newman
Most people are ill at least once in their lives.
Graeme
heading. He was just way too normal. And I don't mean his character. I mean
_him_. I just can't imagine Mitchell Ryan battling
vampires and witches. :)
>>
It is a little hard to imagine, since we never saw him involved in stories like
that. Of course if you've seen only the pre-Barn episodes you'd have a hard
time imagining Roger and Liz in such stories either.
Ryan probably could have handled it, but it might have required some new
directions for him.
Guy Haines, II
"The Ghost of Sarah Collins"
> I recall reading Nancy was in a slight auto accident before shooting and
hurt
> her wrist. She was only out one day, they worked it into the show the
following
> day.
>
Buzz. They worked it into the script with the story of Carolyn's motorcycle
accident. You can see the cast on Nancy's arm when Carolyn reaches into her
purse to get the gun she wants to use on Jason in order to stop her mother's
wedding.
Diana Walker substituted for Nancy during the Adam storyline a year later.
I've never heard whether Nancy had a sudden and short illness to miss just
one episode but apparently, this was the case.
Guy
Guy Haines, II
"Joeytrom" <joey...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010313183630...@ng-mp1.aol.com...
> I heard that Anthony George's contract was up and he decided to leave
DS..he
> was hired for only 6 months.
>
verified in, I think, the Festival's "Barnabas" book) that Mitch Ryan simply
did not show up for work one day and that was the end of him on DS. An
emergency re-write of Burke's lines was done and instead of Burke they were
given to the character of Joe Haskell. Joel Crothers was called in to work
on (what was to have been) one of his days off to say the lines as Joe that
Mitch was to have said as Burke.
Guy
Guy Haines, II
"Ray Salisbury" <aaaaa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17282-3AA...@storefull-627.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Joe that is so awful about Babe being ill that day. Well I thank Jesus
> she's all right now.
>
Graeme
verified in, I think, the Festival's "Barnabas" book) that Mitch Ryan simply
did not show up for work one day and that was the end of him on DS. An
emergency re-write of Burke's lines was done and instead of Burke they were
given to the character of Joe Haskell.
>>
Yes, I've heard that story. And if the episodes were written 2 weeks in
advance, as someone has said, it would require rewriting more than one episode.
The episodes most likely affected are episodes 252-255, all of which Joe apears
in. He doesn't appear in the 12 episodes before that or the 5 episodes
afterwards. Since 21 episodes would have been a long time not to see Joe at
all, it may be that Joe and Burke's original roles were combined in some or all
of those episodes.
That wouldn't be too hard to do, because neither one of them was doing very
much at that point. Burke was in between stories, and had just been twiddling
his thumbs with Sam or Dr. Woodard for his last several appearances.
Graeme
Buzz. They worked it into the script with the story of Carolyn's motorcycle
accident. You can see the cast on Nancy's arm when Carolyn reaches into her
purse to get the gun she wants to use on Jason in order to stop her mother's
wedding.
>>
I remember it well. One day for the DS caption book, I made a "Marquee" about
a blindfold Collinwood Twister game, that featured a bunch of pictures of
people obviously injured (Henesy in a leg cast, Cody in a sling, Selby with a
head bandage, et cetera). I considered using that one of Nancy in the cast,
but it wasn't obvious enough in any of the pictures I had.
>>Diana Walker substituted for Nancy during the Adam storyline a year later.
I've never heard whether Nancy had a sudden and short illness to miss just one
episode but apparently, this was the case.
>>
Very short. Nancy was in the two episodes previous to Diana's appearance, and
back three episodes later. There was a weekend in between so she was away a
total of 6 calendar days (9/3/68 to 9/9/68). I've never heard that any
rewriting was involved so it may have been shorter, if Carolyn just didn't need
to appear in the next two episodes anyway.
Graeme
all right now.
>>
Melodrama, thy name is Ray. Who else could get so worked up over what is
likely nothing more than a 33 year old case of the sniffles?
The Ghost of Sarah Collins
>I've never heard whether Nancy had a sudden and short illness to miss just
>one episode but apparently, this was the case.
>Guy
Thank you Guy, I was under the impression Nancy was absent just a day.
your friend Sarah (1784-1795)
Graeme
loving sister to Barnabas...@}{~~~~~~
>>
At the risk of sounding like Ray, I'd like to nitpick dates here.
In my opinion, Sarah died in 1796. I base that on the general Dark Shadows
principle that the date the episode was broadcast usually (though certainly not
always) corresponds to the date in the story.
The episode she died in was both filmed and broadcast in January 1968. For
that storyline, I consider 1967 episodes to take place in 1795 and 1968
episodes to take place in 1796.
Now, I know what you're thinking. Sarah's tombstone clearly states that she
died in 1795. That's right, it does. And so does Peter Bradford's tombstone
clearly say that he died on April 3, 1795, a full 6 months before the story
even BEGAN (remember that Barnabas' December wedding was said to be one month
away in episode 366.)
So, if Peter's tombstone can be wrong, so can Sarah's. And we all know they
were incredibly sloppy about the whole 1795/1796/1797 business.
I'm not trying to argue with you here. If you like 1795 better, go ahead and
use it. The only point I want to make is that there is room for doubt.
Graeme
is that there is room for doubt.
>>
It looks like there's even more room for doubt than I thought. I've been going
through my screengrab .jpg's, and it looks like there are actually TWO
different Sarah tombstones used in the series.
If you guys have the videotapes, check me on this. In episode 516, there's a
closeup of Sarah's tombstone that says 1784-1795, exactly like Sarah1795's
tagline says.
BUT, in episodes 276 and 317 there are closeups of the stone that say "Sarah
Collins 1786-1796".
Interesting. I never realized there was a discrepancy before. Either they
deliberately changed Sarah's lifetime, or (more likely) they simply lost the
original styrofoam tombstone, and when they made a new one they misremembered
what they had put on the first one.
Joeytrom
series.
I think after the flashback ended, the writers realized this story took place
at the end of one year and the beginning of the next, and they started to refer
to it as 1796.
Though Naomi's tombstone always read 1765-1821.
Joshua's stone indicates that he was boen in 1765 and died in 1830. Both dates
must be in error.
Joey
Tony Ning Lew
graem...@aol.compost (Graeme) wrote:
>>>your friend Sarah (1784-1795)
>loving sister to Barnabas...@}{~~~~~~
>>>
>
>At the risk of sounding like Ray, I'd like to nitpick dates here.
>
>In my opinion, Sarah died in 1796. I base that on the general Dark Shadows
>principle that the date the episode was broadcast usually (though certainly not
>always) corresponds to the date in the story.
>
>The episode she died in was both filmed and broadcast in January 1968. For
>that storyline, I consider 1967 episodes to take place in 1795 and 1968
>episodes to take place in 1796.
>
>Now, I know what you're thinking. Sarah's tombstone clearly states that she
>died in 1795. That's right, it does. And so does Peter Bradford's tombstone
>clearly say that he died on April 3, 1795, a full 6 months before the story
>even BEGAN (remember that Barnabas' December wedding was said to be one month
>away in episode 366.)
>
>So, if Peter's tombstone can be wrong, so can Sarah's. And we all know they
>were incredibly sloppy about the whole 1795/1796/1797 business.
There are more inconsistencies.
Vicky read from the Family History, which states that Sarah died on her
11th birthday.
The family history also says that Josette came to Collinsport in 1795 and
"died by her own hand in the winter of the same year". However, Josette
actually dies in 1796. We can place it there definitively since her death
follows an episode where a conversation between Millicent and Nathan planning
a wedding date places them in early 1796.
Graeme
series.
>>
Sarah1795 points out that it was once said that Sarah died on her 11th
birthday. If the writers remembered that, it may explain the change. The 2nd
stone has her aged 11, and the first one aged 10.
>>I think after the flashback ended, the writers realized this story took place
at the end of one year and the beginning of the next, and they started to refer
to it as 1796.
>>
>>Though Naomi's tombstone always read 1765-1821.
>>
Yes, they never changed that one, even after the 1795 story. The dates however,
are 1761-1821. I had instant access to that one on my Eagle Hill cemetery page
at http://pages.scifi.com/darkshadowscemetery/
>>Joshua's stone indicates that he was boen in 1765 and died in 1830. Both
dates must be in error.
>>
Actually it's 1755-1830. He does look a bit old to be 45 in that story, but
you never know. As for the 1830 death date, that one COULD be correct,
couldn't it?
Nyssa & Cugan
Or they could just have had her fall for Barnabas. :) Now there's
something I always wanted to see. I didn't like Peter, either, and
there was something about his pawing Vicky all the time that made me
uncomfortable.
Nyssa
Ray Salisbury
almost definitely copied the look of some of the monsters of FOSN.
Eric Newman
Didn't a similar thing happen when Don Briscoe bailed? I don't know if
Chris Collins was intended to get the "cold shoulder" from Angelique
as Larry "Loud Sports Coat" Chase did, but for the first couple of
days that Chase was on, I think he was saying lines that had been
intended for Chris.
Eric Newman
Yeah, Joshua and Naomi were thirty years old during the 1795 storyline
-- that's believable.
Graeme
states that Sarah died on her 11th birthday. The family history also says that
Josette came to Collinsport in 1795 and "died by her own hand in the winter of
the same year". >>
That's true. And remember that, just as with the 1840 story, the 1795 story
was changed massively once we got there.
Only a few weeks before 1795, Barnabas retold the original version of the story
to Julia, in which Josette was already married to Jeremiah when he met her, and
they knew each other for years.
>>However, Josette actually dies in 1796.
That's not entirely clear. It's *my* opinion, but Sarah1795 still disagrees
with me.
>>We can place it there definitively since her death follows an episode where a
conversation between Millicent and Nathan planning a wedding date places them
in early 1796.
>>
Wait, you may be right. I DO remember the conversation, and that they planned
their wedding for February or March (I forget which). The question is, did
they say how far in the future that was? If they said "We'll get married a
month from now, in March, then it was definitely happening in 1796.
I'd have to watch the tape to see for sure.
The opinion I'm leaning towards now is that BOTH tombstones are wrong, and that
Sarah was born in January 1785 and died in January 1796 on her birthday.
But that's still an opinion. I think it's the most likely one, but there are
other possibilities.
Tony Ning Lew
graem...@aol.compost (Graeme) wrote:
>>>There are more inconsistencies. Vicky read from the Family History, which
>states that Sarah died on her 11th birthday. The family history also says that
>Josette came to Collinsport in 1795 and "died by her own hand in the winter of
>the same year". >>
>
>That's true. And remember that, just as with the 1840 story, the 1795 story
>was changed massively once we got there.
>
>Only a few weeks before 1795, Barnabas retold the original version of the story
>to Julia, in which Josette was already married to Jeremiah when he met her, and
>they knew each other for years.
>
>
>>>However, Josette actually dies in 1796.
>
>That's not entirely clear. It's *my* opinion, but Sarah1795 still disagrees
>with me.
>
>>>We can place it there definitively since her death follows an episode where a
>conversation between Millicent and Nathan planning a wedding date places them
>in early 1796.
>>>
>
>Wait, you may be right. I DO remember the conversation, and that they planned
>their wedding for February or March (I forget which). The question is, did
>they say how far in the future that was? If they said "We'll get married a
>month from now, in March, then it was definitely happening in 1796.
From my synopses for episode 419:
Nathan tells her, "And I've found
the perfect day. The 2nd of March. The almanac says that the
weather will be beautiful on that day". Millicent protests, "But
that's only a month away!
Note: This episode aired on February 1, 1968.
Josette does not bite the dust until episode 425, February 9, 1968
Graeme
>>
Lucas' first name is George, not Chuck. Unless you're speaking to someone
named Chuck about Lucas, and just forgetting to use punctuation again.
>>he just almost definitely copied the look of some of the monsters of FOSN.
>>
In your opinion. You still haven't figured out that nobody is willing to just
take your word on this. Disagreeing with someone is one thing, but being
flatly unable to understand what they're saying, even after multiple hearings
is just dense. And this ain't the first time, by far, Raymond.
Joeytrom
the Collins Mausoleum, the camera pans to naomi's marker, which still reads
1765-1821...this is a few months after 1795/96 ended.
Sarah's 1784-1795 marker first appeared in the episode where we see flowers on
her grave in 1795, right after she died.
Graeme
who played Carolyn on Dark Shadows.
>>Now there is nothing odd about her. And beautiful Alexandra Moltke is
sweet,sensitive,and romantic if that is what you mean by Gothic ingenue fine
but she isn't strange at all.
>>
I think you've forgetten the context of this discussion. The original point
was that Mitch Ryan as Burke would have been out of place in a supernatural
story because his character was so grounded in more realistic angles. I said
that one might very well have thought the same thing about Roger and Liz (that
they seemed too normal) from watching just the early episodes, but those
characters adapted and Burke might have too. You asked about Carolyn and
Vicki, and I said that Vicki, being the ingenue, was the original character
most suited to strange or supernatural stories.
>>Just very talented and DESIRABLE!!!!OOH LA LA! BOTH OF THEM!
>>
Just a word of absolutely candid advice, and I can't believe you don't already
know this. Women like being appreciated, politely and respectfully, but they
don't like being slobbered over. Especially by pushy people who try to force
their attentions on them and tell them what name they should go by and things
like that.
And being told in effect "You're one of 500 women who gives me wet dreams" is
unlikely to impress any woman. Except perhaps the kind that keep coin changers
on their belts.
Any woman who was at all interested in getting your attention would want to
think that there was something special about herself in particular that
couldn't be replaced as easily as walking down to the nearest street corner.
Graeme
who played Carolyn on Dark Shadows.
>>
Well, I don't want to argue about it. I just don't want to be an accomplice in
dissing Nancy Barrett so I don't plan to respond to that moniker any more.
From now on for me, "Babe Barrett" will refer to either Leslie Barrett or no
one. You'll have to be more specific if you want acknowledgement.
Jenny Brown
>Sarah's 1784-1795 marker first appeared in the episode where we see flowers
>on
>her grave in 1795, right after she died.
>
Don't we see it in 1967 when she's in the mosuleam playing with her doll right
infront of her grave?
"In this world that we know now, life is here then gone. Somewhere in the
afterglow LOVE lives on and on"--Quentin
The Ghost of Sarah Collins
>I tend to agree with Sarah, for one reason only. During Victoria's entire
>journey, the year was constantly referred to as 1795--in opening narrations
>and
>within the program itself. Even during the episode which marked the end of
>her
>journey, we were informed by the narrator that "during one tick of the clock
>in
>1968, months have passed in 1795."
>
>Trying to prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt, though, is as futile as
>trying to explain where the Space Pod in "Lost in Space" was hiding during
>the
>first two seasons!
>
Thank you Bill...for your keen memory concerning the seance, I loved that scene
when time resumed and Vickie was home
again... I only wonder one thing. who saved the day? Vickie or me?
The Ghost of Sarah Collins (1784-1795)
loving sister to Barnabas...@}{~~~~~~
Bill
>scene
>
>when time resumed and Vickie was home
>again... I only wonder one thing. who saved the day? Vickie or me?
>
You're welcome, Sarah. Victoria's return from the past was one of my favorite
moments as well. I hope we'll get a chance to relive that episode at least one
more time.
You and Vicki were two of my favorite characters. I'd love to think that you
both helped save the day! -Bill-
Voice of Grumpy Old Lorraine
Graeme wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------
This didn't happen to be when NB's divorce from David Ford had its day in court?
Didn't their marriage end sometime in 1968?
V.o.G.O.L.
Graeme
court?
Didn't their marriage end sometime in 1968? >>
I don't know. I'm pretty sure they were married before the series started, but
I don't know exactly when it ended.
Graeme
trolling. Surely a man with a girl of his own would have more respect for
women. Right?
>>
I hadn't heard him say that, and I'm not sure I'd believe it even if I did hear
it. On the other hand, we've seen several instances where he doesn't live by
the rules he sets for others, so I can easily imagine him slobbering over
everyone else's daughters, but thinking "don't you dare do the same to mine",
and seeing nothing inconsistent about that.
I like to at least try to take people seriously as long as they're discussing
actual ideas. If a troll comes on and posts some variation of "---- you and
everybody like you", there's really nothing to talk about there, so no point
responding.
I just figure that if I call him a liar and he's not, then I'm the one who's
mean, rude, nasty, et cetera. On the other hand if I consider him truthful
when he's not, that doesn't reflect badly on me at all. How could I have
known? Because nobody could *genuinely *be as far out in outer space as he is?
But yes, they could. I've known more than one person in real life who was
equally oblivious.
Graeme
Right? >>
Additional: This is an interesting question you raise here. The assumption
seems to be that making derogatory remarks about women, with the full knowledge
of what you're doing is more respectful than doing it because you're clueless.
I just don't know here. On one hand, what you're saying seems right. A guy
with a daughter of his own SHOULD have more of a clue about what is and isn't
derogatory. But on the other hand, it *also* seems that such a person wouldn't
*deliberately* make derogatory, tasteless remarks either.
Both possibilities seem unlikely, but apparently one of them is true,
nonetheless.
Ray Salisbury
ever on the set of Dark Shadows. They married I think in 1967 (lucky
dog Dave!!!) and divorced two years later.
Graeme
on the set of Dark Shadows.
>>
I'm not 100% sure. A friend of mine, who wasn't too impressed with Ford's
abilities and thought Mark Allen was much better, believed that Ford got the
job partly by being Nancy Barrett's husband.
But I don't really *know* one way or the other. I''m not convinced you do
either.
Tony Ning Lew
graem...@aol.compost (Graeme) wrote:
A woman interested in getting his attention?
Now that's funny!!
>
Tony Ning Lew
Michael J. Solomon <mike...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>>Just very talented and DESIRABLE!!!!OOH LA LA! BOTH OF THEM!
>
>Is this you Ray? I grabbed the above from Graeme's message. I deleted
>several hundred messages out of necessity earlier today. For a 40+
>year old man with a daughter of your own (I believe you said this) you
>act more like a very horny and very single 18 year old kid.
40+?!?!?!
Judging from his posts, I thought he was about 15.
Guy Haines, II
"Graeme" <graem...@aol.compost> wrote in message
news:20010318010512...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
Nancy so he could marry Leslie "Babe" Barrett?!
Guy
Guy Haines, II
"Michael J. Solomon" <mike...@worldnet.att.net>
> He says he is 40+ with a daughter of his own.
I don't think he ever said he had a daughter, did you Ray? Perhaps, Michael,
you are thinking of the kinky comments that he made in a post about his
sister's daughter. It really creeped me out the way he went on about staring
at his niece's lips.
Joeytrom
Lamia Nocturna
>Kurosawa didn't do *any* bad films IMNSHO, but among the ones I'd
>recommend most highly would be _Rashomon_ (of course! -- his first
>big international hit), _Ikiru_, _Yojimbo_ (a direct inspiration for Sergio
>Leone's Clint Eastwood 'the man with no name' spaghetti Westerns,
>including _The Good, the Bad and the Ugly_), _Dersu Uzala_
>(Kurosawa's only non-Japanese film -- but alas, in Russian!),
>_Kagemusha_, _Throne of Blood_ (the best film adaptation of Macbeth
>I've ever seen), _Ran_ (the best adaptation ever of King Lear) -- and
>above all, _Seven Samurai_, the best film ever made by anyone
>anywhere, with the *possible* exception of Orson Welles' _Citizen
>Kane_ :-).
Kurosawa's films seemed to be "translated" into westerns quite a bit. Aside
from what you've mentioned, the Seven Samurai was the inspiration for the
Magnificent Seven and Rashomon ended up as the Outrage (with William Shatner in
the reverend's role). I've never seen a Kurosawa remake in anything other than
western style. Maybe I'm just not aware of any others.
>--
>Jim Heckman
~*~*~*~ Alexandra ~*~*~*~
Please give generously when death knocks at your door.
(Kentucky Fried Movie)
lamianocturna/darkerlust (AIM/AOL) and bleed_angel (Yahoo)
The Darker Sanctuary (http://www.DarkerSanctuary.com):
POP2000
I did that weeks ago; it didn't really help... ;-)
-P
Do you know something, Susie? There are two kinds of fools in this world: the
ones who know they're making fools of themselves and the ones who are sure
they're not.
Burke Devlin
John
making friends.
John R.
Stephen Robinson
>That's right. Good points. Did the 1991 Series specify exactly what the
>previous relationship between Barnabas and Angelique was?
>
They were lovers in the 1991 series. In fact, when Angelique and Josette arrive
at Collinwood, Angelique seduces Barnabas.
>In Angelique's Descent though he makes a pretty
>firm, explicit offer of engagement. How did the '91 series handle it?
>
I don't think they mentioned it. I haven't read "Angelique's Descent," but such
an offer would have been no better than an outright lie. Barnabas could never
have married Angelique or even thought he ever could have. She was a servant,
after all. It would have been scandalous for Barnabas to marry a working woman.
______________________________________
Stephen Robinson
"What we need is a female victim of sudden death."
-Colin Clive, BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN
Graeme
Nancy so he could marry Leslie "Babe" Barrett?!
>>
I'm confused too. I'd always thought David Ford married Nancy Barrett, but Ray
here seems convinced that it was Leslie. I guess that judge's wig turns him
on, or something.
If I was unclear, I'm sorry. I mean to say that I don't know when David's
relationship with Nancy began or ended, nor do I know the timing or extent of
his relationship with Babe Leslie at all. Ray apparently wants to smother
Leslie Barrett in little kisses, and I think the less said about that the
better.
Emptybottle
hearing all the arguments addressed to him.
"Joeytrom" <joey...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010318093138...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
Emptybottle
Hmmm definition of a troll == someone who wants attention??
back to lurking
"Tony Ning Lew" <kol...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:991s68$gl$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
Ray Salisbury
is a smaller reason but, in the DS: Behind The Scenes video I listened
to when Babe Barrett was talking abot she got the part of Carolyn
Stoddard she never mentions being married to David Ford at the time she
read for the part or that (though that was a slightly different point)
she got or at least hghly suggested him for the role of Sam Evans when
Marc Allen left as Mr. Allen departed in 66 and Barrett and Ford didn't
tie the knot until 67.Further supporting the idea that they married
only during DS is look how young Babe is in those first eps of DS. 21 or
22 maybe? God it isn't that likely that she was married to such an older
man before the show started (Ford would have practically had to marry a
teenager!). And lastly (a weak but sill helpful reason) I'm even
further sure is that in the now defunct Inside the Web.com message board
website there was a DS board and someone there mentioned how Babe and
David got married DURING the show's run (not prior to it).Again and in
short she had nothing to do with Ford getting the role of Evans.
PS I believe the book I read about Babe's marriage in (and by the way
got jealous of Ford) was the 30th Anniversary DS Collector's Edition or
something like that. I didn't own the book. I read it sitting down at a
bookstore at various times. The book had a picture of Jonathan Frid on
the cover in period costume. Had golden or light brownish or yellow
writing also on the cover. Came out back in late 96 or early 97.If the
title I gave for the above book isn't right I hope the description I"m
giving for it does help you Graeme and the rest of you reading this
recognize it.
Eric Newman
Salisbury) wrote:
>Graeme I do know for a fact. I read it in one of the DS books.
You're saying it's a fact because you "read it in one of the DS books"
-- publications you've previously denigrated as "poorly edited." If
they were poorly edited, how can you give credence to anything they
say?
Jeanannd
the USA...and the Collins being an industrialist rich family at the time,
marrying a servant would have been nothing. It was Joshua that with his
unbending pride contaminated Barnabas with that idea, and led to so much
misery for everyone. Joshua loved his family, but he found it so hard to
even tell them that, much less show it.
--
jean...@home.com at
http://www.fellennium.com
the time is meow >^,,^<
Music by: Quantum Source at
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/20/quantum_source.html
"Stephen Robinson" <julie...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010318115954...@ng-cc1.aol.com...
Ray Salisbury
want to add something. As kids my sister and I watched DS faithfully.
When she had her daughter Lauren and the latter reached the age of six
my sister actually said to me "Ray don't you think Lauren looks alot
like the lady who played Maggie on Dark Shadows?" She was the one who
brought the resemblance to my attention. I saw a photo of my sister and
niece both smiling and once while watching DS about a year ago I saw Joe
make a certain face and thought his mouth looked my niece's (Guy I used
the word mouth not lips). And the slight shape of his jaw was a little
Lauren's too and then it dawned on me that Lauren looked like Joe and
Maggie combined.Guy now that you know how I came to comment about her
resemblance to those two do you like what I said any better?
Graeme
all the arguments addressed to him.
>>
Maybe those of us who talk to him should put "Warning: Ray!" in the subject
line to make it easy for the non-masochists among us to delete those threads.
Guy Haines, II
"Ray Salisbury" <aaaaa...@webtv.net> wrote
> PS I believe the book I read about Babe's marriage in (and by the way
> got jealous of Ford) was the 30th Anniversary DS Collector's Edition or
> something like that. I didn't own the book. I read it sitting down at a
bookstore at various times.
I'm sure sexy but talented Kathryn Leigh Scott (as well as whatever book
store you frequent) would appreciate your cleverness as evidenced by reading
her entire line of books and spotting her few mistakes, while not having to
pay a single cent.
Should one of them ever agree to go out with you, all of the hot DS ladies
who read this newsgroup can now be assured of a pleasant evening of fine
dining at your local truckstop. Even though they'll be going "Dutch", I'm
sure you'll be springing for the tip, especially if the waitress is a hottie
who looks like Maggie Evans, right Ray?
Guy Haines, II
"Ray Salisbury" <aaaaa...@webtv.net> wrote
>Guy now that you know how I came to comment about her
> resemblance to those two do you like what I said any better?
>
No. And I imagine Lauren's father likes the comments (that his daughter has
the mouth and jaw of a perfect stranger) even less than we do.
Jim Heckman
>Date: 3/18/01 6:58 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20010318095843...@ng-xa1.aol.com>
>
>From: jamesr...@gateway.netnospam (Jim Heckman)
>
>>Kurosawa didn't do *any* bad films IMNSHO, but among the ones I'd
>>recommend most highly would be _Rashomon_ (of course! -- his first
>>big international hit), _Ikiru_, _Yojimbo_ (a direct inspiration for Sergio
>>Leone's Clint Eastwood 'the man with no name' spaghetti Westerns,
>>including _The Good, the Bad and the Ugly_), _Dersu Uzala_
>>(Kurosawa's only non-Japanese film -- but alas, in Russian!),
>>_Kagemusha_, _Throne of Blood_ (the best film adaptation of Macbeth
>>I've ever seen), _Ran_ (the best adaptation ever of King Lear) -- and
>>above all, _Seven Samurai_, the best film ever made by anyone
>>anywhere, with the *possible* exception of Orson Welles' _Citizen
>>Kane_ :-).
>
>Kurosawa's films seemed to be "translated" into westerns quite a bit. Aside
>from what you've mentioned, the Seven Samurai was the inspiration for the
>Magnificent Seven and Rashomon ended up as the Outrage (with William Shatner
>in the reverend's role). I've never seen a Kurosawa remake in anything other
>than western style. Maybe I'm just not aware of any others.
Well, one could argue for Star Wars from Hidden Fortress (the
whole point of this subthread :), but you're right that westerns seem
to predominate. Can't think of any other counter-examples myself...
--
Jim Heckman