A Missing Link from the Evolution of Anime
Frank J. Lhota
Kyogen and Noh plays, Manga, and traditional Japanese storytelling. One of
Anime's influences was American cartoons, particularly those from the
Fleischer studios.
The Fleischer studio, which made cartoons from the twenties to the early
forties. created Betty Boop and brought Popeye to the screen. For a time,
the Fleischer's were Disney's major rival. Due to the producer's insistence
that cartoons should do what cannot be done in live action, Fleischer
cartoons were more divorced from reality than other cartoons of that era.
They also had the amazing ability to find humor out of scary situations.
"Bimbo's Initiation" (1931) is a good example of the Fleischer's at their
best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWcQei3hPz4
The Fleischer Studio cartoons were widely distributed in Japan, and
influenced a number of the pioneering Anime / Manga artists, including the
legendary Osamu Tesuque. Many a cartoon historian have traced the large-eyed
look of Anime heroines back to Betty Boop.
On YouTube, I found a Japanese Cartoon that really shows the link between
Anime and the Fleischer studios. "Ugokie-Ko-Ri-No-Tatehiki" (1933) can be
seen at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyGvGMa2RFg
This cartoon obviously incorporates a lot of Japanese culture. Central to
this cartoon is the Japanese folk belief that raccoons are shape shifters.
Fans of Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata will note that this was also a
central theme in "Pompoko" (1994). But this very Japanese cartoon is told
using many Fleischer techniques, including their style of visual punning,
anthropomorphism, and black humor.
All that doubt the Fleischer influence on Anime should study these two
shorts. By comparing "Ugokie-Ko-Ri-No-Tatehiki" to "Bimbo's Initiation", it
becomes clear that this is a missing link in the evolution of Anime, proving
that the Fleischer brothers were indeed one of the major influences. A
fascinating find.
--
"All things extant in this world,
Gods of Heaven, gods of Earth,
Let everything be as it should be;
Thus shall it be!"
- Magical chant from "Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi"
"Drizzle, Drazzle, Drozzle, Drome,
Time for this one to come home!"
- Mr. Lizard from "Tooter Turtle"
Hand-of-Omega
Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> The Fleischer studio, which made cartoons from the twenties to the early
> forties. created Betty Boop and brought Popeye to the screen. For a time,
> the Fleischer's were Disney's major rival. Due to the producer's insistence
> that cartoons should do what cannot be done in live action, Fleischer
> cartoons were more divorced from reality than other cartoons of that era.
> They also had the amazing ability to find humor out of scary situations.
> "Bimbo's Initiation" (1931) is a good example of the Fleischer's at their
> best:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWcQei3hPz4
>
back...
...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
> On YouTube, I found a Japanese Cartoon that really shows the link between
> Anime and the Fleischer studios. "Ugokie-Ko-Ri-No-Tatehiki" (1933) can be
> seen at
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyGvGMa2RFg
>
> This cartoon obviously incorporates a lot of Japanese culture. Central to
> this cartoon is the Japanese folk belief that raccoons are shape shifters.
> Fans of Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata will note that this was also a
> central theme in "Pompoko" (1994). But this very Japanese cartoon is told
> using many Fleischer techniques, including their style of visual punning,
> anthropomorphism, and black humor.
Were the original Felix the Cat cartoons available in Japan? It kind of
reminds me of some of those I've seen...
>
> All that doubt the Fleischer influence on Anime should study these two
> shorts. By comparing "Ugokie-Ko-Ri-No-Tatehiki" to "Bimbo's Initiation", it
> becomes clear that this is a missing link in the evolution of Anime, proving
> that the Fleischer brothers were indeed one of the major influences. A
> fascinating find.
>
There's also a theory that the giant lizard in one of their Superman
cartoons influenced or was influenced by Godzilla...
Dex
Lee Ratner
Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> Anime is an art form that draws from many traditions, including ukiyo-e,
> Kyogen and Noh plays, Manga, and traditional Japanese storytelling. One of
> Anime's influences was American cartoons, particularly those from the
> Fleischer studios.
I think this is actually debated amoung manga and anime
scholars, at least those in the West. Frederick Schodt argues that
manga has its roots in the ukyo-e and other Japanese art forms. Sharon
Kinsella argues that manga has its roots in modern Western comic books.
Its been years since I read anything by Kinsella so I forgot the
specifics of her argument but she did have a decent amount of evidence
to support her position.
le...@my-deja.com
Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>> >
> There's also a theory that the giant lizard in one of their Superman
> cartoons influenced or was influenced by Godzilla...
>
> Dex
Well, since the Superman cartoon in question, "The Arctic Giant," was
made 12 years BEFORE Godzilla, I would say it was one and not the
other.
le...@my-deja.com
Also, the Fleischers' Superman cartoons, with their emphasis on "mecha"
and sci-fi themes and sleek intricate production design look forward to
anime in a number of ways. One Superman cartoon, "The Eleventh Hour,"
is, in fact, set entirely in Japan. (It's not a Fleischer production,
though; it was made after the Fleischers quit Paramount.)
Frank J. Lhota
news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> I remember that one! Saw it in an animation history class awhile
> back...
>
> ...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
No, if you pause it, you can see that it was just a generic 1930's mouse.
> Were the original Felix the Cat cartoons available in Japan? It kind of
> reminds me of some of those I've seen...
I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that the silent Felix cartoons
were shown in Japan. I would imagine that Felix would go over very well
there. The Felix cartoons were a hit in Europe, and studios on both sides of
the Altantic were influenced by Felix. I haven't read of any Anime / Manga
artist who said that s/he was inspired by Felix the Cat.
BTW Cartoon Network of Japan has run a later Felix series.
> There's also a theory that the giant lizard in one of their Superman
> cartoons influenced or was influenced by Godzilla...
The Superman cartoon came out before Godzilla. I would guess that the more
likely inspiration for Godzilla would be a combination of the Willis O'Brien
creature films ("King Kong", "Mighty Joe Young") and the dragons of Japanese
folklore.
Frank J. Lhota
"Lee Ratner" <LBRa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154342560.6...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
My opinion is that Manga was inspired by *both* Ukyo-e and Western comic
books, taking good ideas from both.
le...@my-deja.com
I just watched that Japanese cartoon. Definitely a heavy Fleischer
influence. I once saw another early Japanese cartoon that's even closer
to POM POKO. It was even older than the one you linked to and I believe
it was silent. It's about a farmer tormented in his house by a tanuki
who shape-shifts into a teapot, a feat that we see in the training
sequence in POM POKO.
If you go to that YouTube link, you'll find another one, listed as
"Japanese Classic Cartoon (1943)," that's "The Spider and the Tulip,"
an even more famous old cartoon, and beautifully done.
Re: the Superman cartoon, "The Arctic Giant" (1942), I should clarify
that it's about a giant dinosaur that runs rampage through New York
City and it definitely foreshadows Godzilla, although I don't know that
anyone can draw a direct line from one to the other. It may just be
coincidental.
Invid Fan
<NOSPAM....@rcn.com> wrote:
> "Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> > There's also a theory that the giant lizard in one of their Superman
> > cartoons influenced or was influenced by Godzilla...
>
> The Superman cartoon came out before Godzilla.
A good 10+ years before.
> I would guess that the more
> likely inspiration for Godzilla would be a combination of the Willis O'Brien
> creature films ("King Kong", "Mighty Joe Young") and the dragons of Japanese
> folklore.
The name, Gojira, is suppose to resemble Gorilla, and his face is
ape-like (although they keep changing the design for every film)
--
Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
-'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
Hand-of-Omega
Yeah, was too lazy to look up that date, sorry! ^_^;;;
Dex
Hand-of-Omega
Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> "Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> > I remember that one! Saw it in an animation history class awhile
> > back...
> >
> > ...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
>
> No, if you pause it, you can see that it was just a generic 1930's mouse.
>
missing the shorts, but has the shoes and gloves. He debuted in 1928,
but had he really taken off by this time?
Incidentally, I went back and rewatched "Steamboat Willie" (which has
Mickey at his most asshole-ish) and I still have one question: There
are only three characters, Mickey, Minnie and Pete...So who's
"Willie"??
> > There's also a theory that the giant lizard in one of their Superman
> > cartoons influenced or was influenced by Godzilla...
>
> The Superman cartoon came out before Godzilla. I would guess that the more
> likely inspiration for Godzilla would be a combination of the Willis O'Brien
> creature films ("King Kong", "Mighty Joe Young") and the dragons of Japanese
> folklore.
>
It's been a while, but didn't the Superman lizard have Godzilla-esque
fins on its back?
And wasn't there a "Master of Cartoonal Knowledge" posting here who
could answer all these questions once and for all??
Dex
Jack Bohn
You just have to remember that the Superman cartoons were about
WWII ("The Japatuers"), and Godzilla is well post-WWII.
--
-Jack
Jack Bohn
>
>Frank J. Lhota wrote:
>> "Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > ...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
>>
>> No, if you pause it, you can see that it was just a generic 1930's mouse.
>>
>I did, and it still looks a hell of a lot like Mickey to me; he's
>missing the shorts, but has the shoes and gloves. He debuted in 1928,
>but had he really taken off by this time?
I think Terrytoons had mice that looked like this, even before
Mickey. Actually, if you look at Bimbo, the other animals in
Fleischer shorts, the other animals in Disney shorts, everyone
seems to be drawing from a common pool.
>Incidentally, I went back and rewatched "Steamboat Willie" (which has
>Mickey at his most asshole-ish) and I still have one question: There
>are only three characters, Mickey, Minnie and Pete...So who's
>"Willie"??
Is "Steamboat Willie" the name of the tune?
--
-Jack
Invid Fan
<jack...@bright.net> wrote:
> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
> >Incidentally, I went back and rewatched "Steamboat Willie" (which has
> >Mickey at his most asshole-ish) and I still have one question: There
> >are only three characters, Mickey, Minnie and Pete...So who's
> >"Willie"??
>
> Is "Steamboat Willie" the name of the tune?
Or the boat?
Hand-of-Omega
Invid Fan wrote:
> In article <6r7uc2tqrllulipbe...@4ax.com>, Jack Bohn
> <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
>
> > Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> >
>
> > >Incidentally, I went back and rewatched "Steamboat Willie" (which has
> > >Mickey at his most asshole-ish) and I still have one question: There
> > >are only three characters, Mickey, Minnie and Pete...So who's
> > >"Willie"??
> >
> > Is "Steamboat Willie" the name of the tune?
>
> Or the boat?
>
buy it was the boat if it were anthopomorphized in any way
(singing/talking vehicles were pretty common), but IIRC, only it's
whistles were...Does the boat have "Willie" written anywhere on it?
Dex
le...@my-deja.com
Steamboat Willie came from the Buster Keaton silent comedy of a few
years earlier, STEAMBOAT BILL JR. and one of the popular tunes used in
"Steamboat Willie" is called "Steamboat Bill."
I'm guessing that Steamboat Willie is indeed meant to be Mickey's name
in the film.
Jack Bohn
>Steamboat Willie came from the Buster Keaton silent comedy of a few
>years earlier, STEAMBOAT BILL JR. and one of the popular tunes used in
>"Steamboat Willie" is called "Steamboat Bill."
>I'm guessing that Steamboat Willie is indeed meant to be Mickey's name
>in the film.
Spins us off into other questions...
Does Mickey play different characters? That is, does he use
different names; I imagine in all his films he acts basically the
same (with the exception of "Steamboat Willie"), much like Abbott
& Costello act the same in all their films, but even in ones
called "Abbott & Costello [Do Something]" they are called by
different names. (Further tangent: The Three Stooges, even in
their feature films, are always Larry, Curly (Joe), and Moe,
right?)
I've seen "The Brave Little Tailor," but I don't recall any name
used in connection with Mickey. I haven't seen their "Christmas
Carol," was Mickey Mickey, or was he called Bob Crachett? (In
"Muppets Christmas Carol," was Mr. The Frog called Bob Kermit?)
--
-Jack
le...@my-deja.com
Okay, I did some checking last night and STEAMBOAT BILL JR. came out
just a few months before "Steamboat Willie," which was indeed produced
to capitalize on the Keaton film (just as Mickey's "Plane Crazy" was
meant to capitalize on Lindbergh). And, no, Mickey is not meant to be
named Steamboat Willie in the film, it's just the name of the cartoon
and a takeoff on the Keaton film's title.
Chika
> >
> >Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> >> "Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > ...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
> >>
> >> No, if you pause it, you can see that it was just a generic 1930's
> >> mouse.
> >>
> >I did, and it still looks a hell of a lot like Mickey to me; he's
> >missing the shorts, but has the shoes and gloves. He debuted in 1928,
> >but had he really taken off by this time?
> I think Terrytoons had mice that looked like this, even before Mickey.
> Actually, if you look at Bimbo, the other animals in Fleischer shorts,
> the other animals in Disney shorts, everyone seems to be drawing from a
> common pool.
Quite likely, especially as artists moved from company to company. You had
near neighbours Van Beuren and Fleischers, both bequeathing talent to WB,
Disney and MGM as they evolved, broke up or disappeared, not to mention
some of the smaller and older setups. Consider the difference in design
between Mickey Mouse, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, Cubby Bear and Bosko the
Talk-Ink Kid, the difference between them being little more than the
length of the ears.
--
//\ // Chika <zvl...@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
// \// Hitting Googlespammers with hyper-hammers!
... Misspelled? Impossible. Error correcting modem!
Invid Fan
<miy...@spam-no-way.invalid> wrote:
> In article <6r7uc2tqrllulipbe...@4ax.com>, Jack Bohn
> <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
> > Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> > >
> > >Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> > >> "Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >> news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> > >> >
> > >> > ...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
> > >>
> > >> No, if you pause it, you can see that it was just a generic 1930's
> > >> mouse.
> > >>
> > >I did, and it still looks a hell of a lot like Mickey to me; he's
> > >missing the shorts, but has the shoes and gloves. He debuted in 1928,
> > >but had he really taken off by this time?
>
> > I think Terrytoons had mice that looked like this, even before Mickey.
> > Actually, if you look at Bimbo, the other animals in Fleischer shorts,
> > the other animals in Disney shorts, everyone seems to be drawing from a
> > common pool.
>
> Quite likely, especially as artists moved from company to company. You had
> near neighbours Van Beuren and Fleischers, both bequeathing talent to WB,
> Disney and MGM as they evolved, broke up or disappeared, not to mention
> some of the smaller and older setups. Consider the difference in design
> between Mickey Mouse, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, Cubby Bear and Bosko the
> Talk-Ink Kid, the difference between them being little more than the
> length of the ears.
There was an episode of a PBS series 'History Detectives', regarding
finding the story behind a 'Mikey Mouse' toy patented a couple years
before Steamboat Willie. Their conclusion was all the mice from the
20's looked about the same, with even the ones from the Felix the Cat
silents looking like Mickey.
Nuki Mouse
>
> Frank J. Lhota wrote:
>> "Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>> > I remember that one! Saw it in an animation history class awhile
>> > back...
>> >
>> > ...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
>>
>> No, if you pause it, you can see that it was just a generic 1930's mouse.
>>
> I did, and it still looks a hell of a lot like Mickey to me; he's
> missing the shorts, but has the shoes and gloves. He debuted in 1928,
> but had he really taken off by this time?
>
> Incidentally, I went back and rewatched "Steamboat Willie" (which has
> Mickey at his most asshole-ish) and I still have one question: There
> are only three characters, Mickey, Minnie and Pete...So who's
> "Willie"??
The song Mickey is whistling during much of the cartoon is "Steamboat Bill,"
so the name of the cartoon was a more comically sounding version of that
song's name.
Nuki Mouse
--
"This is just my opinion, I maybe wrong" D. Miller
"Defend free speech! Read a banned book today!" unknown.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it," S. Tallentyre, summarizing Voltaire's views.
Relic
> In article <6r7uc2tqrllulipbe...@4ax.com>, Jack Bohn
> <jack...@bright.net> wrote:
>> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>>> Frank J. Lhota wrote:
>>>> "Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1154320853....@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> ...Was that Mickey Mouse locking Bimbo in the sewers?? 0_0!
>>>> No, if you pause it, you can see that it was just a generic 1930's
>>>> mouse.
>>>>
>>> I did, and it still looks a hell of a lot like Mickey to me; he's
>>> missing the shorts, but has the shoes and gloves. He debuted in 1928,
>>> but had he really taken off by this time?
>
>> I think Terrytoons had mice that looked like this, even before Mickey.
>> Actually, if you look at Bimbo, the other animals in Fleischer shorts,
>> the other animals in Disney shorts, everyone seems to be drawing from a
>> common pool.
>
> Quite likely, especially as artists moved from company to company. You had
> near neighbours Van Beuren and Fleischers, both bequeathing talent to WB,
> Disney and MGM as they evolved, broke up or disappeared, not to mention
> some of the smaller and older setups. Consider the difference in design
> between Mickey Mouse, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, Cubby Bear and Bosko the
> Talk-Ink Kid, the difference between them being little more than the
> length of the ears.
>
people Hugh Harman and Rudy Ising (who were with Disney until
shortly before Mickey's creation; in fact, Oswald was produced
by Disney until Oswald's owner pulled him and got most of
Disney's staff to come with him).
--
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Other places just don't have the huevos!
Flame [ 'flAm ]
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ten/mark
news:0PKdnbGFI5mm5VDZ...@rcn.net...
His technical contribution to animation is sadly forgotten today . Up till
then animation was choppy and unnatural. Dave Fleisher dressed up in a
clown suit and danced on the roof where Max had set up a device he invented
to sketch the images. This was the first true rotoscope. From the drawings
Max made, animation became established with a frame rate rendering natural
motion to the characters. Dave was also the inspiration for Koko the clown
who "was the funniest man who ever came to town"
Osamu Tezuka is often quoted as crediting Disney as a big influence on his
style. However in the original interview he spoke more about Max Fleisher
then Uncle Walt.
ten/mark
Chika
<reli...@ameritech.net> wrote:
> > Quite likely, especially as artists moved from company to company. You
> > had near neighbours Van Beuren and Fleischers, both bequeathing talent
> > to WB, Disney and MGM as they evolved, broke up or disappeared, not to
> > mention some of the smaller and older setups. Consider the difference
> > in design between Mickey Mouse, Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, Cubby Bear
> > and Bosko the Talk-Ink Kid, the difference between them being little
> > more than the length of the ears.
> >
> And of those characters, Oswald and Bosko were done by ex-Disney people
> Hugh Harman and Rudy Ising (who were with Disney until shortly before
> Mickey's creation; in fact, Oswald was produced by Disney until Oswald's
> owner pulled him and got most of Disney's staff to come with him).
I believe I mentioned that earlier in the thread. Consider the fallout
from that incident, where Harman and Ising ended up first at WB where they
first aired Bosko and created the titles "Merrie Melodies" and "Looney
Tunes", then over to MGM where they oversaw the creation of a little
number called "Puss Gets the Boot", animated by two promising animators,
Joe Barbera and Bill Hanna. Harman and Ising may get little more than a
mention historically, but they did have an influence on what was to come.
--
//\ // Chika <zvl...@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
// \// Hitting Googlespammers with hyper-hammers!
... If my mail doesn't arrive. Does this mean he met a femail on the way?